Monday, May 15, 2006

Time To Tell All!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

Time has run out on the enforcement question and which agencies were aware of facts, but in no hurry to address them. Long ago I promised I had 10,000 related emails, along with 18 FLDS Books and 550 Cassettes, not to mention recorded phone dialog and the time has come to make these public.

The internet and online news networks allow for sound or audio clips, quick time movie clips and links to documents I have refered to for nearly 6 years. Time to name names and link those phone conversations with the world wide web.

Over time many agencies were ignoring my complaints, and yet today, those same agencies are looking at my documented complaints in the same light in which I wrote them. I stated that these enterprises traded young women for economic favor and suggested the RICO Act 6 years ago, the same claims I am hearing today.

I had stated I wanted congressional hearings and absent of that, I'll let the public know exactly who knew what and when, letting them decide whether the government agencies were doing their job or side stepping a very complex issue.

MIB

111 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hey, have any of you guys heard that three of Winston Blackmore's ladies have been denied immigration and are facing possible deportation? What are your opinions on it?

ATAR_i said...

You go!

I for one think that's an awesome idea.

What format will you use?

You might consider - now that he's a top 10 fellow, getting a weekly radio thing going on - get some reimbursement for all your documentation.

You could make some podcasts.

Definately do it!

Anonymous said...

Your living in a dream world you seem to thimk polygamy is going to be prosecuted then just go away... Not going to happen polygamy is thriving and growing bigger every damn day of the world.

Anonymous said...

You surely used the correct adjective concerning the status of the world. But, that's God's decision and not mine. He said it was so in His word, and I believe Him. I believe Him, not some self appointed wimp who won't face his accusers without hiding behind the skirts of his "wives" and children. SOME KIND OF REAL MAN - - - YEAH! JUST THE KIND OF EXAMPLE I'S WANT TO FOLLOW ha!

rcn

ATAR_i said...

For me this has nothing to do with polygamy.

But, if you call them wives, I think they should be treated as wives, and not declare that they are unmarried when they want food stamps and etc.

If a man can support several wives and their families, and the women are of legal age, and consenting - I don't care.

I think it's about a culture that has taken a dark turn, heading down a spiral into dark unethical, illegal, and unspiritual places. The leadership doesn't uphold the teachings they are supposed to espouse.

Is there any printed teachings that are current for the FLDS? Is there anything in black and white - a standard even warren has to live by? Is there anything which would be improper for him to do? ANYTHING?

Anonymous said...

No the checks and balances,however small,were largely gone, before Warren staged his coup.Warren is mentaly unstable.Ego-maniac with a
persecution complex.This is not going to end well.

mugwump said...

The preceding statements of supposition, accusal, conspiracy, half truth, heresay and second hand testimony, introduced as fact in this thread, as posted by Men In Black, IS absolutely inadmissible as evidence in a court of law within the United States of America.

The two letters included in the article, those written by Senator Hatch and by F.B.I. S.A. Jeff Goins, and thereby being used as evidence in proof of collusion in order to circumvent investigation, will not stand as evidence, both speak the truth. The accusers need to study just what may and may not be entered into a court of law as evidence. A close investigation of Mr. Goins' letter will reveal that he spells out the rule of evidence in great detail. This silly attempt at character assination simply is being made because these men told the truth and didn't jump at the accuser's wish, is no cause to find them at fault.

Until a complaint is filed, in a court of law, indicating the nature of the crime, the date, the place, the victim(s), naming the witnesses to the crime (if known), and especially naming the party being accused of the crime, no action can be taken BY LAW. Only a valid complaint, filed in a legitimate court of jurisdiction has authority to issue a warrant for arrest. The only exception to this rule is if the law officer, in performance of his/her duty observes a crime in progress he/she, as a law enforcment officer, can make an arrest and file the complaint with the court of jurisdiction in the name of the State in which the offence was committed. Then, and only then may a County, District or Federal Court Attorney begin investigative proceedures in behalf of the jurisdiction. Following investigation the abovenamed lawyers for the state, having seen the evidence, make a decision as to the quality of said evidence and if such evidence would be of value to a grand jury for sake of indictment.

Any suggested procedure, as indicated in this ill advised and un-informed rabble rousing attempt at yellow journalism, amounts to no more than a witch hunt.

To those who wrote this piece of foolishness: Follow proscribed procedure if you want to gain attention and remove criminals from the street.

I say this in all ernestness. I am not a Mormon. I am not a FLDS. I do not practice polygamy, nor have I ever done so.

I strongly disagree with the Mormon doctrine on matters of principle, authenticity of their source of belief and because of the strongly documented history of their founder and his acts of fraud.

Therefore, Susan Mazur and Jay Beswick, I am publicly offering this opinion to those who may read this post.

The preceeding diatribe is not now nor will it ever, in it's present form, be admissable for purposes of indictment in any court of law. It exposes ABSOLUTELY nothing except the opinion of the author.

I would welcome the abolishment of the practice of polygamy and do all I could to assist in obtaining the answers to questions regarding illegal financial operations originating from within either the LDS or the FLDS. My concern is for the abuse of women and children of which I have heard repeated first hand testimony. But of even greater importance is the protection of the integrity of the law of this nation, not only ensuring the conviction of the criminal, but protecting the rights of the innocent.

ATAR_i said...

Mugsy, gonna have to disagree - sounds like political gobbledy gook.

As a republican, when I found out that Orrin had been down in CC, and even defended the people - I just lost all respect for the man.

As a political insider, unlike myself, all information was available to him, and brought to him, set on his desk, served to him on a platter. He is not a judge, he does not live in a court of law - he's a respresentative of the people - and he was given information that could assist the most vulnerable in his state.

He must follow the rules of law, but as we all know - had he wanted to pursue helping those vulnerable boys and girls who were being denied an education, married under the legal age, or abandoned on the streets he COULD HAVE brought pressure to bear, and he didn't

He turned his back, and probably received some lovely campaign donations for his decision not to take up the cause of the vulnerable.

I'm disgusted - there is no way in HELL he didn't know what was happening in his own back yard.

Someone in his position is compelled to act when they are given the types of information he was.

He said they were "nice people, and that he had friends who were polygamists" - So?

Mugs - had it been you sitting in that seat of power - would you have done nothing? NO - you would have done something - don't defend that weak pathetic excuse for a representative.

mugwump said...

atar_i


Thank you for your candid reply. I was basing my rebuttal to the post upon the content of each of the two letters. I did not take in consideration any charge or countercharge that has not been entered into the record of the courts. If indeed Sen. Hatch can be shown to have gone on record either pro or con my opinion may well change. One thing we must remember and that is that Sen. Hatch's power is in the legislative branch. His position on the Judicial Committee does put him at question and should require great discretion. He understands the judicary. He understands the principles of evidence. I think he's a Mormon first, just like I'm a Christian first. Being in high political office does require a degree of responsability. How does he use that responsability? Is he proving himself trustworthy? Is that the point? We however must have an understanding that "open-air" charges do not a case make, unless proper documents are filed in the court of jurisdiction. That is the single determining factor in my judgement at this point.

I have not changed my over all view of the intent of the article as being an intentionally inflamitory red hering without supportive legal documentation. In all probability crimes have been committed. However, unless complaints are filed a case cannot move forward and all we have is accusation. If such a case can be solidly filed, and a D.A. or Federal Atty. determines that evidence supports prosecution, I'll stand back and watch and solidly approve the verdict. I want justice served.

My opinion was not intended as defense for any party, but to take offense at the manner in which public opinion is being played for all it is worth by the arthor of the article.

Like Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts mam."

ATAR_i said...

Mugs - YOU are here, because you heard about this, and you just couldn't sit around on your hands.

Imagine if you had the resources of the state to bring issues to light, pressure to bear, or even take a second look.

Orrin chose NOT to do either of those things. In fact, quite the opposite, he called them his friends.

Bottom line is YOU are here - and I know you're not trying to say that there are no 'facts' - there are 'facts aplenty'.

If you attempt to pretend that there is no real evidence I will know that your statements are ONLY politically motivated - because ALL of your previous posts have never indicated that you have any difficulty believing that these horrors are indeed happening.

I don't know about you, but I'm not for sale to the republican party, or to anyone else, and I will not sacrifice my time to defend those who did nothing to alleviate the suffering of these children. They get NONE of my sympathies, and only my disdain.

Orrin was in a position to help, and he didn't. Bottom line. If you want to defend that....be my guest, but I would take a dimmer view of your ethics because you'd be doing a 180 strictly to paint Orrin in a less offensive light.

mugwump said...

Atar_i

Another thought came my way as I was away from the computer. If those who suffered injury, however you identify it, because of Sen. Hatch's lack of action, a Civil Suite might be in order IF subtantial evidence can be brought forward that damages were sustained as the result of Hatch's dereliction of duty. It would be costly, and because of the prejudice presumed to be present in the judicial system, might be hard to win.

If the preponderance of evidence presented in a Civil Trial is so obvious, and in all liklyhood a cadre of press would be at each session the trial, soaking up every word and inuendo, damage to his reputation might justify the effort if that is your end goal. Trials of prominent political figures get a lot of press. It would take a firm of experienced superior attorneys to pursue the case for the plaintiffs, probably non LDS. A change of venue, if a possibility in in Federal Court, to get a fair trial for both parties. I seriously doubt that the Senator would lose in Utah.

There are so many different sects, or groups of FLDS, a blanket suit would be hard to win. The suit should be directed toward the prophet and his diciples. A suit against the order would only cripple those who are bringing suit. Dollar amounts for damages should be astronomical.

I'm not against you. My greatest concern is for abused women, children and the so-called lost boys. They need a fair shake and a stable hand to assist them in prevention from becoming victims again.

ATAR_i said...

I wasn't suggesting a civil suit, or anything like that.

I'm suggesting that Senator Hatch be ashamed at the lack of leadership he displayed and his gross intentional lack of interest.

I think shame should be the legacy of a leader who knows of an injustice and does nothing.

I want Senator Hatch to feel deep regret - his reputation will carry far more of a penalty than any amount of money.

mugwump said...

Atar_i

The only way anyone can determine the depth any person's regret is by observation of a change in attitude or change of direction is for that individual to come forward, of their own volition, address the problem in question, admit error, and make every effort to see to it that things change for the better. It is an action I could expect from a true Christian, but I'm not sure that any Mormon ever will admit an error in judgement, especially if they are a part of the priesthood.

They believe in a system where they are in the process of climbing to a higher plateau of righteousness, eventually to earn enough brownie points to become god of their own universe. How does a Christian reason with that illogical primise?

Anonymous said...

Atar_i

I admire your spunk and your astuteness at seeing Orrin Hatch for what he really is - which is NOT concerned about the abuses that have been going on in Hildale/Colorado City for decades.

Orrin has been involved in Utah public office for decades as have the abuses been going on for decades. But Orrin never did anything "because he knows a lot of nice people in Hildale" and I guess he wouldn't want to alienated that friendship with his polygamous child abuser buddies.

Unfortunately, politicians in Utah - ESPECIALLY SOUTHERN UTAH - have known about these abuses for decades and have chosen to do nothing about them.

The polygamists serve up a lot of votes - a BIG block vote.

There is a similar issue with the Washington County Sheriff and FORMER Washington County Attorney.

Evidence of abuse slapped them in the face, but they turned a blind eye and did nothing about the abuses except whine and make excuses.

Have you read Washington County sheriff Kirk Smith's quotes in the press last week that he does not think it wise to form a task force to hunt down Warren Jeffs - a man on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List?

Sheriff Kirk Smith said "it should remain a local issue". It is my guess that this guy wants it to remain a local issue because he can just sit back and continue to do nothing about the abuses.

But, I want to get back to the topic and say to you, Atar_i, that I admire your seeing beyond the bull and recognizing a horse's ass when you see one.

Men In Black said...

Mugwump

What you may or may not realize is the absent emails that were directed to the FBI. What other agencies that were already involved, a witnesses name and phone number and several attempts to get the FBI to respond previously. There was a reason not to include the info sent to the FBI, to be included in a public story.

But all in good time, I have been at this longer than you. 6 Years ago the FLDS would of laughed had I predicted this day and time would come. Mayor Dan Barlow publicly said I drank my own bath water, now that was an interesting defense!

The FBI response was really xlint, they had denied 3 FOIA requests from Associated Press and apparently lied about a pending investigation. Right there in print Goins speaks of GG and what she wasn't doing in Idaho.

Today Shurtleff is stating this is Organized Crime and that this may be under the purvue of the RICO Act. I said the same thing 6 years ago. The AG says that Warren was trading underage minors for economic advantages, again I said the same thing 6 years ago. I'd say my case is being proven today by those agencies noted in the Scoop article. Unless your IQ is under 100, you do realize the dates of those documents. These agencies are in print in agreement with me today, its what they did last year and the year before that is at issue.

No need to get your shorts in a bunchy, everything is moving along as it should. Just stay tuned and keep watching the headlines. I have 10,000 emails and have only played with less than 100 of them. JG graduated from FLETC you might GOOGLE search it, the feds have 3 Academys or did. I graduated from Santa Rosa CJC so I am well aware of Jeff's schooling. When I am ready to prove a point in court, there will be a detailed paper trail to support it.

All you have seen is a response from the FBI, but what was the FBI given? You don't know and its not worth you knowing, bet that makes you feel important! Its still about victims and the law, if that is to difficult to grasp, maybe we can pass around a hat and raise enough money for a one way airfare to Iran.



MIB

Anonymous said...

So every investigator who does his job and protects the innocent are guilty if they find someone innocent?

If I was in law enforcement why would I want to investigate?

If I find them innocent, I will get blasted by the press and those who believe everything bad that ever happens is because of polygamy and probably lose my job because of publicity.

If I find them guilty when they are not (AS MOST OF YOU DO) I will lose my job as Howard Pyle did in 53.

We should elect Jay Beswick as the new sheriff of Hildale. Then he can be on his own list of people who have done "nothing" to stop what doesn't happen.

ATAR_i said...

anon 2:00

It's not your job (as sherrif) to find them innocent or guilty - it's the courts.

But, apparently that's what you've BEEN doing (psssst....it aint working).

ATAR_i said...

Just started to read the Scoop article.

Goins email is incredibly long, I think a little too long - sounds like a CYA letter. Do you think it really would have mattered if you spent 10 minutes on the phone with him to 'follow up'.

Jay has the information (sounds like copious amounts), and the paper trail (to the chagrin of others).

Believe me, you don't need a full blown complaint or an official complaint - all that the American public wants to know is if you were aware of what was going on and did nothing.

Like Louisiana - they didn't technically ask for aid - but all the American public knows is that Washington didn't do anything. Could someone have said 'make an official request for aid' (perhaps they DID), but even so - the perception is that they didn't help.

So, poor Mitt, Orin and all with political aspirations - this will be your Katrina. Congratulations, karma has come back to bite your backside.

mugwump said...

MIB

Atar_i has made my point for me. As far as the publication of the exerpts of e-mail traffic and the letters from the Agent and Senator. Together the whole thing , when taken at face value is nothing but gossip. All you have presented amounts to an ongoing soap opera of he said-she said. The information YOU provided in the post is not nor would it be, admissable as evidence in court. How do you know that the e-mail collection is the product of the person whom you believe to have sent it to you? Without depositions affirming and attesting to all the heresay it is unacceptable and would be thrown out upon the first objection by either party's attorney if (in it's present state) in a court of law.

I don't say that the things you so strongly support are not true or correct, but you must be able to make them provable as fact in court.

Therefore, as I said in the original post, all this effort amounts to is yellow journalism, sensationalism for the want of being noticed.

mugwump said...

Anon 5/16 2:00 AM

Civics 101

Lesson 1

There are three branches of government.

The Executive branch: charged with puting action (enforcing) laws or rules or decisions made by the legislative branch.

The Judicial branch: charged with being in close contact with the people who have chosen them to serve in their particular capacity. They are to review the facts and make rulings which then become the Executive branch's marching orders.

The Judicial branch: Appointed or elected to serve as a neutral in hearing complaints against individuals and parties who, in the eyes of those so charged within the Executive branch to enforce the laws or rules enacted by the Legislative branch and to see that all parties have an equal opportunity to justice.

Lesson 2: All three branches are to function independently. No one branch is to dominate any other branch.

Lesson 3: The above is the ideal way a government should work. does it allways work as it should? NO. Why? Because in some areas people gain power because of their resources, in other areas people gain power because there are greater numbers who represent their ideas than represent any other idea.

Leson 4: Law enforcement agencies are considered a part of the Executive branch of government. By law they neither make the laws nor can they make judgements of guilt or innocence. If such things are happening, file a complaint with the court of jurisdiction naming the law enforcement officer as the party who is breaking the law by preventing you from exercising your rights as a citizen. If you get no action from that court, make your complaint through the state's attorneys general office.

We could continue with this lesson from now on, BUT now it becomes YOUR job to act the part of a responsible citizen. Vote, according the the dictates of your knowledge and concience and not becaue uncle so-and-so told you how to vote. Campaign for the candidate you support, make an effort to get other citizens to help you in your effort. Meet with your candidate regularly and remind him/her what you expect and what you will take him/her to task for. Follow your concience, obey the law. Report activity you suspect that may be in violation of the law. Ask for assistance. If someone on the highway is driving recklessly, get a description of the vehicle, the highway, mile marker and license nuber when you call the local law enforcement officer. You don't know if the driver is ill, drunk, on drugs, has fallen asleep or wht. you just know that their being on the road is a hazard to other motorists.

Law enforcemt personnel, in general, are often cursed, receive low pay, are expected to make super-smart split second decisions and possess the wisdom of Solomon. Not all are capable of this. Many are motivated by family ties, position of the perpetrator within the community and other reasons. Hey, they are humans, just like you, trying to do their job. Are all perfect? No. Are you perfect?????

Nuf sed.

Anonymous said...

When you get stopped by the local policeman for speeding, he is judge, jury and executioner. He either decides (judges) to give you a ticket, or he doesn't. If he gives you a ticket does it prove you’re guilty? No
But by giving you a ticket, he has made a judgment that you are guilty. If not he would not give you a ticket. And if the judge says you are guilty, are you? No. For if its appealed and overturned, were you guilty?

On every level of society there has to be judgment from each and every individual, from the complainant, to the policeman, to the investigator, to the district attorney, and to the judge, and to the lawmakers themselves. People have gone to jail for murder, who were later proved innocent. Were they guilty?

There are laws against polygamy, and there are laws against speeding. But if you were speeding to get to the hospital because you had someone with a life and death emergency, YOU would disobey the law to accommodate your conscience, wouldn't you? Such are practicing polygamists.

All of the laws that have been made to stop polygamy, in all the history of the U.S., have been made because of public outcry, and from the tabloid press, and not because of actual unconstitutional actions.

This "problem" will never go away because peaceful, kind, and good Christian women happen to think polygamy is necessary. It's in the Bible.

The lawmakers who make the laws judge that there is wrongdoing or they wouldn’t make a law trying to stop it, the prosecution judges that there is wrongdoing, but that doggon fact that it has to be proven keeps getting in the way. More laws are enacted for the sole purpose of "creating" guilt.

The obvious reason there has been so very little prosecution in the past, is because there has been no proof brought forth to sustain the hearsay and accusations of wrongdoing, and at some level was dismissed. You can blame all the people in the world for not doing something about it, but what can they do about it? Most of society obviously want to get rid of the FLDS, it goes against most people's ideals. But unlike the press, and most people, the court system has to hear both sides of the story. And defend everyone’s rights as citizens, not just the complainant, no matter how much they yell and scream. They have to defend even those who don't make a public outcry. At least that's how it's supposed to work.

2:00

mugwump said...

2:00

Excellent insight and not at all prejudicial. Please note that the policeman citing someone for speeding in all probability did so for some probable cause. The person who was cited was not guilty until 1.) he pled guilty before the court or 2.) if he elected to go to trial, he was found guilty upon the perponderence of evidence by the judge, in a bench trial or by a jury, in a jury trial A court will generally take extinuating circumstances into consideration if they can be proven. If such evidence is presented at a pre-trial hearing the case will usually be dismissed.

Anonymous said...

And that is why there has been no prosecutions before Rodney Holm. (And his conviction was based on a law that was passed in 2003, whereas the "crime" was commited back in 1998.) They were dismissed at some level for lack of evidence. Not because of lack of desire to prosecute.

So give the poor picked on government a break for not "doing something". They have that darn Constitution to deal with. (And the truth)

2:00

Men In Black said...

The Utah Supreme court today upheld the conviction of Rodney Holm, denying the claim of religious bias. Guilty as charged, it was less about polygamy and more about taking an underage minor.

CNN is in St. George as I type and you read this blog.

Tapestry and Flora Jessop will be on the O'Reilly Factor tonight.

The Los Angeles Times just left my house here in California a few hours ago so I suppose you will call them yellow journalist too! They returned "In Light and Truth" which I had loaned them, lets see you call that book a pack of yellow lies! Authored by Rulon T. Jeffs and accurate as far as the FLDS believe it to be. How more accurate do you expect the press to be? Its FLDS text, copyrighted and published by Twin City Publishing in Hildale. You live in Sadddam's fastasy world where the law or in this case reality is whatever you scribble on a sheet of paper with your cray-ons.

By the way, someone must of read Scoop as there has been a sudden interest in the basis of that FBI letter. I 'd explain it, but its too adult for someone still trying to define Civics 101.

Just keep babbling and watch the news, you aint seen nothin' yet!

MIB

mugwump said...

Mr. MIB

In no way have I referred to you as stupid. I respect your right to express your views in any way you choose. The whole purpose of the earlier post was a hope to get you to understand that solid evidence must be presented before a court or it will be thrown out as unacceptable. Now, I believe that I have repeated that general theme four times. If you don't understand by this time I am beginning to believe that comprehension is beyond your capability.

I have repeatedly stated that I am in full support of protection of women and children. I oppose polygamy on principle. I suppose it is being practiced in my back yard but, until someone makes a complaint to one of the local courts what can I do about it?

I think my first posting of the day made you so mad that you haven't taken the time to read the entire article. Therefore you have formed a presumption that I said something that I didn't say. I still stand by my earlier statement that the approach of using e-mail and letters out of context amounts to yellow journalism. William Randolph Hearst was accused of this practice. Yellow journalism means this: The total accuracy of an article makes no difference, as long as it sells papers. The San Antonio Light, a Hearst newspaper ran the most solicitious articles on the front page. The more grusome and bloodier the better.

I suppose this is an example of why so many Americans are fans of professional wrestling. Even though they know that the wrestlers are in effect actors, the staging, lighting, hype and portryal of characters either precieved as good or bad sells tickets to the matches. In one city the wrestler is the good guy, in the next he's as mean as the devil.

Maybe I read you wrong. Maybe your whole purpose is to sensationalize the whole FLDS et. al (and others) without ever bringing their leaders to trial.

Gather the information, get it confirmed by witnesses, present it to an attorney to organize, let the attorney file a charge in court, get a trial date set, subpoena witnesses. Examine and cross-examine witnesses. Draw a conclusion based upon irrefutable evidence. Only then can you stop this foolishness.

Anonymous said...

Preach on, Muggy, preach on. MIB (Jay Beswick) is frustrated that he and his poster girl, Flora Jessop, have been all but ignored by the news media in recent weeks. There have been other, more cogent arguments offered by people like Carolyn Jessop and Brent Jeffs than MIB and Flora will ever be capable of.

So, MIB starts spamming the blogs again (this isn't the first, nay not even the fourth of fifth instance.) He's frustrated and he's flummoxed. So, he's casting about for all the attention he can get. Hurrah for him. He managaed to get a few TV cameras. Flora makes it on O'Reilly. What do you want to bet she comes out with more of her salacious allegations and not one grain of proof.

I'm with you Muggy. The FLDS needs to go, especially as it is currently configured under Warren Jeffs. Unfortunately, so long as there are TV cameras and printer's ink involved, people like MIB and Flora will flock to them like moth's to a flame.

Remember, the most dangerous place on Earth is between Flora and a TV camera, unless it's between MIB and a computer terminal.

Preach on, Muggy, preach on!

ATAR_i said...

I'm not certain there would be a way to sensationalize the events of the FLDS - they are too salacious already.

As to wether they can be proved in a court of law - we'll never know unless it's tried.

Is there evidence - YES - are there witnesses - YES. Are the witnesses willing to substantiate the evidence, or will they be hostile?

If a 16 year old gives birth, and lists the father as a 46 year old man - objective data is available. However - you would need to *know* the names of the girls, then obtain court orders for medical records. Barring a willing witness - someone needs to GET this information - to chase it down.

For all the boys, social service agencies who have attempted to contact parents and been rebuffed would be objective willing witnesses.

I don't find anything sensational about MIB - I think he's someone (not someone in law enforcement or the judiciary or social services). He's just Joe Citizen jumping up and down trying to get attention FOR THOSE WHO SUFFER.

He can relate the facts as he has witnessed them, and collect the data that substantiates his testimony. More power to him for being willing to spend his time, money and energy in defense of the helpless. It's more than I can say for Utah's leadership.

I won't ease up on government - they should have had a strategy to deal with these allegations a long time ago. This is WAY overdue. When little 16 years olds are giving birth in hospitals - isn't there some sort of mandatory reporting that should have been happening?

Couldn't they have asked social services to make home visits, document, and agressively pursue parents who have 'dumped' their children so there would be an extensive paper trail.

And what about all the food stamps and aid - don't they need to provide documentation - age of the children, age of the mother etc....they actually hand deliver that information to our government - WE HAVE IT - couldn't we find the *minor mothers* that way?

mugwump said...

Atar_i

The very nature of the crimes against the community lead to silence from the abused. In a normal non-mormon community the very idea of being called to the witness stand in a child molestation trial, after the fact, would be an extremely embarassing experience.

Embarassing testimony from young women and boys who have experienced rape and/or sodomy by their uncles, elder brothers or fathers is probably the only way that convictions of these abusers can be guaranteed.

The stress of living in a family where all the members of the family, male and female, have had similar experiences, and lived through it, places ever greater pressure to remain silent and endure. Father is father and they have been taught that the priesthood is infallable.

My hope for their deliverance is that somehow freedom of choice and the unrestrained ability to visit with people of other religious backgrounds can help these victims to understand that there are other options. That they don't have to live a life of slavery and abuse.

It will be interesting to see how today's anti-polygamy law, passed by Utah's legislature, will be enforced by local law officers and how the local church wards will instruct their members in the fact that there is no longer any law to sustain the practice in any home in the state. That no one not willing to participate is required to consent. I'm afraid that the law is just political window dressing to get the attention away from the state capitol and Temple Square. Time will tell.

ATAR_i said...

Yes exactly - that's what I was getting at (reluctant witnesses) - therefore objective documentation might be able to be obtained that doesn't solely rely on fragile reluctant individuals.

fttc said...

Mugwump

Thank you for your input for MIB. I said when I first came on this blog that MIB was after notoriety as much as any justice he claimed he was after. My being a fundamentalist did not give much credence to what I said I suppose. No responsible person will deny that there have been abuses within the FLDS. I would be the last make such a claim. At the same time, however misguided the world at large may veiw the Fundamentalist mormons they have been mostly law abiding (other than polygamy of course). They are an industrious people that have cotributed their mite to society.

The 'evidence' that MIB has been using has been largely hearsay. I concur in your point that it will not help the cause of justice much. If MIB has hard evidence he should have filed charges long ago or it show an irresponsibilty on his part.

onthestreet said...

BALL BABY TITTY MOUSE, LAID AN EGG IN GRANDPA'S HOUSE.

Anonymous said...

believe me that MIB is NOT after nororiety. Actually, for his safety, he prefers to NOT have notority.

MIM does not get in front of TV cameras.

He is after seeing that innocent people are protected and evil no-gooders are prosecuted and held accountable.

MIB wants no "claim to fame". MIB only wants truth and justice - 2 things that are lackng in the FLDS and the law enforcement agency (Washington County Sheriff Office) that has had legal jurisdiction over these abuse matters for MANY years.

It is now an election year and Washington County, Utah needs a NEW sheriff.

The current sheriff is old and weak. And totallly useless.

onthestreet said...

mugwump said (5/16/2006 8:14 PM): Atar_I, the very nature of the crimes against the community lead to silence from the abused. 5/16/2006 8:14 PM


STREET’s Reply: Exactly so! See, the very nature of love leads to silence regarding abuse, where there is no abuse. But where there is abuse, which there IS in CC, the Prophet handled that manfully, and the whole world is witness. On the other hand, the universal abuses in American homes have led the government (God’s ministers) to order the National Security Agency to install cameras when possible, and at the very least to listen to all your phone calls and read all you emails, which they have been mining for years. This is only the beginning of the consummation decreed in the heavens, and you have no right to know the justified secrets of government that are necessary to find you out.

mugwump said...

fttc

Thank you for your understanding related to evidence and it's presentation and acceptance before a court of law.

Documents used as evidence must be substantuated, signed, witnessed and in all probability notarized before they will be accepted as evidence. My purpose in giving this information is hopefuly to help those who are injured parties to understand the battle they face. An accusation is not proof of fact. We have laws, in all states and in the Federal Constitution that the accused are innocent until PROVEN guilty. That is why this nation is so great and so richly blessed of God. Is there opression? Yes, of course, but it is not a product of the state. The fourteenth amendment to the the Constitution freed slaves. The only reason to submit to such opression is to do so voluntarily, through habit or ignorance.

Anonymous said...

In 1953 the town of Short Creek was raided to free the "White Slavery" that allegedly was occuring there. If you go to the SLTrib web site you can read the governor's speech to the state of Arizona.
The men were gathered up and thrown in jail. The women were gathered up, and the children were all going to be adopted out because of "allegations" (YELLOW JOURNALISM).

See what happened then?
Not one woman would fight their husband, they would rather fight the "saviors" who were "freeing" them.

Most of you would define the word abuse to include polygamy, or "underage" marriage. IT DOES NOT.

For abuse to be proven, there must be a victim who believes they are abused. Right?

If a 17 year old girl wants to marry a 50 year old man, and have a child, and she loves that child, and she loves that man, and she feels that he treats her with the utmost respect and kindness. Where is the abuse?

There are hundreds and thousands of teenage girls having babies from men over ten years thier senior in each and every state in the U.S., outside of polygamy.

But when are they considered victims?

Are they victims if they are married in plurality? When they believe the Bible teaches it?

2:00

Anonymous said...

You ask a very good question. There ARE thousands of young girls in the U.S. who are so desireous of being acceptable to their peers that the in effect prostitute themselves. I cannot defend this nor do I condone it. I do know that when cases of child abuse, in the general population become known, investigations follow and if proven guilty the person at fault receives punishment.

What promotes this behavior? I think a couple of things are pretty good contributors.
1.) General lack of parental supervision and training,
2.) The super sexually charged and violent content of media available on the mass market that is really unsuitable for any sane person to view, but especially for impressionable children who are left home unsupervised.

Then, there are those innocennt children who have not been exposed to such garbage. They have instead been taught since the were old enough to understand that it was their responsibility to give themselves over to the male so that they themselves can bear children. These impressionable children are molested by the very adults who should be their protectors. Not only little girls but little boys are brutally sodomized and then cast out of their family when they themselves begin to show a natural interest in the opposite sex. That is the whole purpose of this blog, to enlighten people in the general public as to the hidden secret lives of child abusers and their innocent victims abused under the guise of religion.

rcn

fttc said...

2:00

You make a valid point contingent on your 'IF'. It is a BIG if. I would counter with a question. What would it hurt to wait? One more year to a 17 year old can seem like eternity. I well remember. But it is not really that long and the more mature a person is when making decisions that will last for a liftime, or eternity in this case, the better the end result will be.

U. Rulon and U. Roy both saw the problems occurring with the young marriages and both said they would not do it any more. The elders would not listen and put pressure on them until they gave in. I know a number of girls that wanted to get married at 17 so bad their teeth ached. But they and their parents were willing to wait on the word from the President. They were not married until most of them were at least 19. Some were as old as 21.


No one can know the difference between sweet and bitter until they have experienced both. If a child grows up with constant love and never experiences abuse, when more love is heaped on them they cannot appreciate the love because they know nothing else. How much more so is the case with abuse.

When someone is taught that their salvation depends on the decisions someone else makes for them all their life, will they not let someone else make the decision? The problems the FLDS are currently involved in did not come about because someone on the outside decided to stir up trouble. The Rodney Holm case, which if I am not wrong was one of the first prosecutions in years for the FLDS, was not brought on by any other than the 'underage' girl he married. There were problems there, problems of immature decisions on the part of the bride perhaps. What would have been the result if she had waited until she was grown up to make her vows? No one can know but I think you get my point.

I can't say this without being redundant; THIS IS NOT ABOUT POLYGAMY, OR PLURAL MARRIAGE, OR CELESTIAL MARRIAGE!

What the outside world can see is the hundreds of youth that are dilinquents outside their home, parents that are not only not dealing with it but sending siblings to join those already made dilinquents, several young girls with their own stories of abuseive marriages and leadership that is not willing to defend itself beyond denial of problems that are obvious to see, families being mixed up and reassigned to the point that children are not sure who to call Father, monetary abuses against government (taxpayers), these problems are coming from within the ranks and they are being pushed and furthered by the leadership of warren. The outside sees these things as abuse and whether the victims know they are victims or not there are those who feel for them and wish to help them. If the people could live without all of this chaos for a while would they return to it again? Or is the problem that they do not know anything but chaos?

Anonymous said...

CAN IT BE?
THAT IS TERRIBLE WE SHOULD STOP IT!

"IT" is all in your imagination. "IT" makes great stories for the newspaper.

Proof is in the pudding, not in the pile of whipping cream on top.

Most of these charges can be proven in the court of yellow journalism, but not in real court, or else they would have been already.

If you say something enough times, you believe it, whether it is true or not. That is not admissable evidence.

Whipping cream of lies.

You people are attacking the pudding, and claim you are attacking the whipping cream, and defending the pudding.

You're not.


2:00

Anonymous said...

fttc:
"The Rodney Holm case, which if I am not wrong was one of the first prosecutions in years for the FLDS, was not brought on by any other than the 'underage' girl he married."

You are mistaken. It was not Ruth vs Rodney. It was Utah vs Rodney.
Convicted by a law that was passed in 2003, for a "crime" committed in 1998. Ruth did not press charges.

2:00

polywatchin said...

I know of 3 guys now in jail waiting on 3rd dgree rape of a child case for having a inappropriate relationship with underaged girls. It was supposed to be consentual, but the cops were on these guys like a dirty shirt. Why cant that happen in CC or Hilldale?

ATAR_i said...

Would you like some pudding 2:00 - I heard all you got was some whip cream

Was Ruth Stubbs 16 when she married (or 14)?
Was Cindi Holm 15 when she married?
Was Sandy Meldrum 15 when she married?
Was Shirley Blackmore 15 when she married?
Was Louisa Johnson 14 when she married?
Was Rachel Cooke 14 or 15 when she married?
Was Ellen Cook 14 or 15 when she married?
Was Mary Chatwin 15 when she married?
Was Esther Allred 15 when she married?
Was Esther Barlow 15 when she married?
Was Julia Johnson 14 when she married?
Was Geniel Barlow 15 or 16 when she married?
Was Daisy Barlow 16 when she married?
Was Vilate Allred 15 when she married?
Was Roberta Mackert Johnson 14 or 15 when she married?
Was Paulene Barlow 17 when she married?
Was Annie Barlow 15 when she married?
Was Lucelle Musser 14 when she married?
Was Margy Anne Johnson 15 when she married?
Was Shanna Zitting 15 or 16 when she married?
Was Vicki Nelson 16 when she married?
Was Laree Johnson 14 or 15 when she married?
Was Dianna Lane 16 or 17 when she married?
Was Camille Steed 16 when she married?
Was Leseille Jessop 16 when she married?

In Arizona and Utah the age of consent is 18 (I have conflicting reports that it could be 16 - anyone have clarification?)

Statutory rape.

(a) Statutory rape is sexual penetration of a victim by the defendant or of the defendant by the victim when the victim is at least thirteen (13) but less than eighteen (18) years of age and the defendant is at least four (4) years older than the victim. (b) If the person accused of statutory rape is under eighteen (18) years of age, such a defendant shall be tried as a juvenile and shall not be transferred for trial as an adult. (c) Statutory rape is a Class E felony.

Do you understand what the fuss is all about yet???

ATAR_i said...

Once I've made my point - I'll delete that post - I truly don't want a bunch of girls names up there - but I do want to illustrate - THERE IS DEFINATELY PUDDING APLENTY

Anonymous said...

atar_i:
Please delete your post. Just a few years ago, the legal age in AZ and UT was 14 with parental consent. Several of the girls you listed were legally married as first wives to young men just a few years older than themselves. Should they have waited? That's not for you or I to decide, much like we don't get to decide thousands of other young marriages outside of the FLDS. You don't make any points by throwing a bunch of crap (pudding) at the wall to see what sticks.

ATAR_i said...

I don't think your age of 14 is correct.

I've only seen 16 with parental consent.

14 is just a LIE

Anonymous said...

atar_i

How many pressed charges?

"ZERO"

Don't they have to agree that they were victims?

Put their husbands in jail and who will come and visit? (pssst...The victims)

Now jump up and down screaming and yelling at the computer. See if that will make them victims.



2:00

Anonymous said...

By the way. I am one of those "victims". Attack me, won't you?

Not even a nuclear bomb dropped on Short Creek (and anywhere else you might think we are) will stop the FLDS religion. Sorry pud.

2:00

ATAR_i said...

2:00 it's about the law, it's about Statutory Rape. It's quite objective, and no complaint is actually necessary.

You can get me to agree that consenting adults can have as many partners as they like, you can get me to agree on a lot of things - but not this.

I was 14 once, and my daughter is 14 now (I have 3 daughters). Any adult father, or grandfather who was taking one of those little girls home at night should die in prison.

If the husband is underage himself, or only a couple years older, I wouldn't be so upset - but it's still a less than optimal circumstance. Remember, you guys value education - so you want all your kids to graduate (at least from HS).

BTW - I wouldn't yell at you, and I don't want to berate you. I'm just expressing my way of seeing things, which just happen to coincide with the law on this issue.

Statutory rape.

(a) Statutory rape is sexual penetration of a victim by the defendant or of the defendant by the victim when the victim is at least thirteen (13) but less than eighteen (18) years of age and the defendant is at least four (4) years older than the victim. (b) If the person accused of statutory rape is under eighteen (18) years of age, such a defendant shall be tried as a juvenile and shall not be transferred for trial as an adult. (c) Statutory rape is a Class E felony.

ATAR_i said...

2:00

It would not suprise me in the least to have a victim visit her husband in jail.

It doesn't mean he is innocent of statutory rape.

I don't mind if you guys get married young (as in 18), but why the urge to marry at the age of 14? Seriously, what is the great rush?

Please take care of yourself - just read my schpeel below, if you have any questions let me know.

Have you heard of Human Papillomavirus (HPV)?

Any woman who is sexually active can have changes to her cervix because of this virus. When your body is still developing your cervix has many tender cells called columnar epithelium that are incredibly susceptible to this virus. they sit on the outside of the cervix. As you age, those cells migrate inside the cervix and are no longer exposed (around 18sh). A mature cervix is still at some risk - but NOT NEARLY the rist of a young cervix.

So take care of yourself and get a yearly pap test.

Anonymous said...

Debate it, disect it, moan about it or cry about it, but the other shoe is about to drop. Its simple logic if you have read the news. Activist like Flora and MIB had stated 5 years ago in writing and in the news, what the Utah Attorney General is stating today. Organized Crimes and Exploitation of female minors. Child Abandonment of well over 100 boys and welfare fraud. Nice and neat paper trails to prove each claim.

Winkie in Canada has given blood as have many of the children he sired. The claim of unwed mothers to defraud government social service programs, is under scrutny. Why else would Winston claim he might be charged any day and that explains his press conference.

Canada records show one of his brides was 14, shy of her 15th birthday and a second was indeed 15. On CBC TV Winston lied about the underage issue and therefore like many here, has no credibility. Sam Roundy the former Colorado City Chief of Police lied on camera to Mike Watkiss of News 3 TV, "none of my Officers have taken under age brides, no I don't want to comment on this". Dan Barlow lied on camera and this was repeated by others. When the truth was easier, the FLDS faithful lied to protect the faith. Now when statements are made, is it a lie or the truth? Who knows who cares!

Per the prosecution of Rodney Holm, before him it was Thomas Green, in circa 1980 Roy Potter of the Murray Utah Police Dept. and as I recall Rich Jessop was charged with the Mann-Act long ago.

Because laws are not enforced, it does not mean they do not exist. The lack of prosecution falls to issues under the RICO Act, where by influence was purchased or where by monies were exchanged for services. Take Rodney Parker a lawyer client relationship, however he breached deniability when in August 2003 he wrote a letter to General Shurtleff to defend his client on religious grounds. He admitted both their guilt and the violations under the law, to justify known illegal actions. In theory a lawyer is supposed to believe in his clients innocense, so as to not lie in front of a judge knowing the real facts to be different. Parker was a federal attorney with the President George Bush senior administration. He simply has ignored the law and pedalled influence for money, we usually call this a lobbist. Parkers name still appears as registered agent on certain FLDS businesses, making him complicit with the business and financial interest.

Thompson the Hildale attorney and special council was quoted in the Spectrum as being respectful of the FLDS and vice-versa, admitting he might disagree with the child bride issue. He is quoted in the Spectrum in May 2003. He a former partner of David Nuffer, a later Governor Leavitt appointment to judgeship. Thompson like Parker knows the law, he was the elected District Attorney of Washington County from 1973 to 1978. These guys took money to pedal influence as attorneys each knowing the law going into their client relationship. Thompson was Nuffers old partner. Real convenient, one representing each of the twin cities. Thompson stated 1981 as his first year in Hildale, he was there durring Stubbs vs Jeffs.

Colorado City attorney David Nuffer represented 1991- til 2001 to 2003 depending on status of full and part time. Mike Leavit made him a judge and he bacame full time. Nuffer was the Utah Bar Association President in 2000 and 2001, while he was representing Colorado City interest. He was on committees with the Attorney General, Jan Grahm then and her staff. Nuffer is part of the LDS Bishopric in St. George, no deniability here for the mainstream church. The firm was Snow & Nuffer and Nuffer the junior partner. Nuffer was a former Deputy District Attorney knew the law and was well aware of the laws being violated in Colorado City, Utah was so impressed they made him a judge! Steve Snow, Nuffer Senior Partner became Council of Seventy of the Mormon or LDS church circa 2000 or several years into his time in representing Colorado City interest. In theory Steven Snows tithing monies included his profits made from clients such as Colorado City. Steven was placed in charge of the LDS South America Missions program. By the way Steven too was a former Deputy County Attorney who knew the law.

The 87 Witnesses that signed affidavits for Sam Barlow under investigation by Arizona DPS in 1987 was another fine example of influence pedalling and in many cases, the witnesses placed letters of support on their agencies letterhead in violation of the law. Jim Gober of BATF, Phil Jordan of DEA, Bob Rehm of Arizona DPS, Chuck Sullivan of DFS, the Iron County Sheriff, the Cedar City Police Chief and on and on this list goes. It was ORGANIZED CRIME, but the players reach far outside the FLDS and it is they today that need to be concerned.

When U.S. Senator Orrin Hatch was challenged in his Town Hall Meeting in St. George, he made it abundantly clear that evidence of crimes should be brought to him personally. This countered several letters he had authored in 2000 and 2001 where he stated the practise was illegal. In 2003 he was lashing out with his true belief that polygamy should be allowed inspite of the law he quoted in his own letters sent previously. To comply, info about other crimes were provided and Mr. Hatch quickly retreated having his legal council respond in writing to distance himself from the issue.

The FBI told it both ways, one that an investigation was under way and to AP under an FOIA request that nothing was being investigated. But they copied the hard drive of one of the most vocal activist in late 2002 and in fact had substantial info of many activist because of that action.

Since Thompson was the President of the 5th District Bar Association, DA's like Eric Ludlow were members and had working relationships with Thompson which included Southern Utah judges. Ludlow in 2004 was up for judgeship and his record went under scrutny as the Washington County DA, having never addressed the polygamy or related abuses issues. Initially he denied ever being contacted and 2 cases had paper trails to counter his statements, but he was rubberstamped in, any way.

In the 1987 probe by Arizona DPS, both County Attorneys had signed affidavits supporting Sam Barlow, then it was William Ekstrom Jr who publicly refered to Colorado City as "Mayberry" from Mohave County and Paul Graff, now with the Utah AG, who was then Washington County DA.
The FLDS had a unbreakable network of influence that as a matter of policy, never let a girl runaway without being returned, while young men were routinely deposited and abandoned in the desert, with few safety net options.

Even Sheriff Kirk Smith today wants to contain this issue inspite of recent revelations about Warren and abuse. Wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear one day that Smith resigned without explanation or that he too had a new roommate named "Bubba". Reports sent to MEC or Missing and Exploited Chiildren in Washington DC were routinely routed to the local sheriffs of the reporting county and someone needs to look at Sheriff Smiths archives to these. When Sam Roundy Junior tried to explain where Colorado City sexual abuses cases went he was hard pressed to explain why local DA's didn't get the filed cases. I suspect Smith would have the same problems explaining why and how abuse cases refered to his agency from MEC never made it to former DA Eric Ludlow.

If Warren is charged with Organized Crime, there remains these power players that controlled what info left their jurisdiction. They were the enablers and right now they are pointing fingers away from them, its all Warren's doing, we were mislead..

Bottom line, the FLDS survived by buying influence from influential people, many of whom were lawyers, with ties to the mainstream church.

When this all spills out, it might even divert attendion away from Warren. I can think of at least 3 others that are not FLDS that should be ahead of Warren on the FBI's 10 MOST WANTED list!

Anonymous said...

Reply to 2.00

"Put their husbands in jail and who will come and visit? (pssst...The victims)"

...not unless of course
warren tells them not to

then their husbands
might as well be dead

keep sweet eldorado
stg

ATAR_i said...

12:32 Incredible compilation - I read every word!

saar said...

I am totally flabergasted and amazed with the list of girls names and yet I could add twenty more that have happened in the last couple years that are under 18. It is like Warren knew they were going to get him when he took Millie Jessop, Merrils daughter at 15, so he married a bunch of 15 and 16 year olds to other men, hoping he was not going to be the only one caught and he would have company in jail. The sad part is that the fathers got kicked and the girls needed comfort, so they married them off.

Even the girls that leave "lost girls" do the same thing. They can't survive by themselves so they hookup with a guy (never mind getting married) they lost everything, including parents and friends that won't talk to them, so they find new friends and continue their life.

I am sure pround of Richard Holm reaching out and helping those that he does.

I wish we had a better system to help, but I guess each person that is a "survivor" will figure it out for themselves.

Anonymous said...

Cast out, taken in by a good man?What is she trained to do? From what I gather, from reading comments on this blog, most can barely sign their name. What kind of a job can they qualify to do. Be a housekeeper, a cook, a gardner, etc. Valuable if (IF) a good man finds or makes a home for her. If not, she'll be beaten, prostituted, enslaved, raped and eventually thrown away as useless. Who is at fault? I think it's the system that allowed this travsity to occur in the first place.

If not I imagine one of the Mexican groups will take her under wing and exploit her as a white slave in the Mexican Society houses of Prostitution.

How does "daddy" sexually abuse his daughter and then peddle her off as a virgin?

Anyone who knows about human anatomy understands that the feminine hymen may be broken under circumstances other than sexual union. This damage is not at all unusual for a woman who is a horseman/woman. When "daddy" puts her up for auction does a reputable physician or midwife examine the girl to determine if her maidenhead is intact?

The very thought that any daughter of mine would be so degraded is appalling. To have it done, find her lacking in proof of virginity, and standing there with a smug self-righteous and pious look on my face, if I were the one guilty of deflowering her, deserves disimbowelment.

rcn

Anonymous said...

atar_i
AZ: Can marry at 15 or younger with a court order (wouldn't have been too hard to get from Judge Steed); can marry at 16 with parental consent.

UT: Can marry at 15 with a court order; can marry at 16 with parental consent.

Texas: Can marry at 14 with parental consent. Now that's probably why warren started YFZ.

I wonder how long it will take for Texas to change their law....

I think we can all agree that it is pretty sick to marry a 14-15 year old no matter what state it happens in or what the circumstances are. Delete your post. Even the worst jounalist won't print minors personal status or names involved in suscpected crime. You are above that, or you used to be.

Anonymous said...

Atar_i,

Where in the world did you find the list of those girls? Obviously, your source is not very reliable. I personally know of about 15 of those girls and you have it all wrong!!!

Go get a life, girl. It's seems pretty pathetic that you don't have anything better to do with your time.

ATAR_i said...

anon 1:46 - tell me how I got it all wrong - I'd love to know.

It would be pathetic if I didn't have anything else to do with my time - I work outside the home, live on a farm, raise four children, have a successfull business outisde my job, and am on the board of a non-profit (having nothing to do with polygamy), and my kids are involved in all sorts of acitvities.

YET - I still manage to be able to type a few lines here and there - I MUST BE SUPERWOMAN!

So....are you pathetic - cuz Anon is constantly writing all the time on this site.

Anonymous said...

To anon 11:50:

Texas did change its law...last year, thanks to the efforts of State Representative Harvey Hilderbran. The new law raises the age 16 with parental consent. It was passed as part of Senate Bill 6 and was signed into law by Governor Rick Perry in May of '05.
Among the people who testified before the legislature on behalf of the bill were: UT Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, Jon Krakauer, Private Eye Sam Brower, and Randy Mankin, publisher of The Eldorado Success.

Anonymous said...

They are not minors anymore, if you note Ruth Stubbs who is already a very public name. What usually occurs with LE is someone inside produces such a list and that list gets refined. In a closed society you need a starting point and typically it looks like what got posted.

If you want to help us refine this list, then go to it. If you recognize names, but just want to talk about it, then what good are your comments?

So set the record straight and correct the ages or modify the names, not that anyone keeps their original last names there.

What do you suppose the public will think when the press starts digging deeper into the reassignment of wives and children? I hope you are still preaching that its just traditional and conservative values. It can't be white washed, there is nothing traditional in American family values that allow for women and children to be passed from one man to another or from 10 families to one man! You know Warren now following the pure seed doctrine.

Think about it, the news reports keep calling it religion and a need for 3 connected wives. But then why does Winston have 20 plus and Warren, what 70 or more? Lets do a pole or research project and figure out who have more and less than 3 and why? Its like guilt based on the numbers.

Its an easy question, go ahead and explain it. Tell us all who have 2 or less as well. Seems like the men who make the rules, don't stop at 3.

ATAR_i said...

I sure would love to know why a man needs 70 wives.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to know why any sane man would want 70 wives. One is a full time job.

Now if were an oil sheik with a eunuch to oversee their daily needs and all a man would have to do is keep them sexually happy I still don't think any sane man would want more than one.

Anonymous said...

It will take more than 70 women to straighten out a pedophile.

Anonymous said...

Maybe, I wouldn't know. If each of the women took a baseball bat and applied it liberaly to his privates, following each of his joyous experiences, he would probably change his thinking about whether such actvity was worth the pain. I'll bet his one track mind would be de-railed pretty quickly.

If a molested child's father would take the same baseball bat and re-arrange the pedophile's ribs, legs, arms and fingers and if that didn't work, split open his head, he and his pedophilic buddies might get the message: Don't you even think about messing with my child! Pervert.

Acid Reflux

Anonymous said...

Watch for Scoop in New Zealand and ABC TV in New York, rumor has it MIB has released more of his damaging emails and letters. Letters from a second U.S. Senator are rumored to be exposed. From Senator Hatch to ? How many U.S. Senators were aware of abuses and better yet when?

This may well be musical chairs, but a twist in the game, where different Senators take a turn in the "hot seat".

Anonymous said...

A better list to post would be the men that married the young girls.

Simon said...

On 5/17/2006 5:49 PM, 2:00 said:

"If you say something enough times, you believe it, whether it is true or not."

2:00, you said that about the media and newspaper stories. I absolutely agree with you!

Wouldn't the same be true of a religious upbringing? Wouldn't repetitioius preaching and teaching fall under the same truism?

Simon Says

ATAR_i said...

Bullseye

Anonymous said...

Like shooting at a target at a distance no greater than 10 ft., using #8 birdshot, ya can't miss as long as the gun is pointed toward the target. You can bet your boots that the profit's using all his power of persuasion and brain-washing ANYTIME he is addressing his sheeple. Has anyone explored the possibility that his most devout followers may be subjected to a form of hypnosis?

rcn

Simon said...

Aren't some if not all of his followers (especially the women and children) listening to his monotone voice on tapes all day every day?

Sounds pretty hypnotic to me.

Simon Says

Anonymous said...

Simon

Your analysis is very frightening and also very logical.

miraclesandlove said...

brainwashing is a strong super power type of hypnosis. Hypnosis from birth. WOW! I call it auto pilot, like when I drive my children to school, I do not have to think of where I am going. It just comes natually. I do it every day. I use the same streets to get there and arrive at the same time every day. How comfortable it is to not have to think about where to turn or if I will arrive.

Then the next day while driving to the service station, I turn towards the school because I was not thinking about where I was going. That is what is happening to the people in CCA. They are on auto pilot and have to pay attention before they will realize they are going to someplace they really don't want to go. I know I was there once. You have to think!!! to get off of auto pilot.

Anonymous said...

I was told this by a person who had raised turkeys for years. He said that every morning he would open the gate to let the birds out into the pasture. One day, he decided to open a new pasture to allow the birds "fresh pickins" so he opened the gate right next the one through which the turkeys had been going for most of their lives. The second gate opened to the left thus exposing the pasture on the right. He said the birds instead of turning to the right as they went through the opening, they turned to the left as they were used to doing. There was open space to the right, a new pasture to the right, he had scattered grain on the right side of the pathway to help get their attention turned to the right, but instead they just bunched up tight against the gate to their left so none of them could go anywhere.

He finally was able to attract the turkeys into the pasture on the right. He had to use his wit to prove that he was smarter than the turkeys. Before dawn he went into the turkey roost and captured about a dozen turkeys, carried them into the pasture to the right. He loosened those turkeys about the time the other turkeys were coming off their roost. He did not open the gate of the roost until mid morning. Only when the turkeys in the roosting place saw the loose turkeys in the pasture to the right would they even bother to look in that direction to see if there was something better there for them.

Do you see a possible parallel?

Are you a leader or a bunch of stupid trukeys?

rcn

miraclesandlove said...

Sounds like you still don't get it. Anyone that has been able to escape FLDS insanity must be a leader, because no one dares to question the direction they are going without great fear of death. Eternal death. What may be a leader to you may not apply here with EX FLDS people.
I know of many leaders that are evil leaders like, Hitler, and WJ Who lead people into the pits of hell without flinching. Not all leaders are good and being a leader is very individual. Have you ever heard of torture, like when someone knows that talking would get their tounge severed from their mouth? So is it in FLDS land. Escape before you speak and while you still have your tounge. It is tricky, not turkey that is the name of the game. Do it or die without your whole face. I am a leader and not like WJ because I choose to lead myself and leave others to find the way alone. Showing FLDS followers the capured turkeys in the right field never works but only angers them. They do not see turkeys having a better life but put to pasture until the slaughter. Then they are careful to stay in the left pasture so as not to be killed also. Do you think you get it now?

fttc said...

rcn

I think you ruffled some feathers.

Anonymous said...

Well more feathers are being ruffled, LE now watching YFZ, think Warren Jeffs is there.

http://cbs11tv.com/video/?id=10000@ktvt.dayport.com"

Excellent news piece with interviews of pilot & Sheriff Doran.

Anonymous said...

fttc, anon. leader?

We are at a loss to know how to pursuade those enslaved to break free. The only tools at our disposal are our minds. We use these God given tools in many ways to attempt to attract attention to the possibilities that exist away from the slavery in which they find themselves.

Your answer tells me that according to your opinion those entraped individuals are so brain-washed that when given an open opportunity to improve their lives and the lives of their dear children would prefer to sacriffice their all into the hands of a demonic man. do they kow that Jeffs has such a bad reputation that their lives are in grave danger should they continue to do his bidding? Even now, if it could be proven, and with communications equipment and super cameras, evidence against any of them can be gathered. They contribute to harboring a fugative from the law and to do so reduces their chance at the possibility of escape? Failure to escape this hotbed of contriversy and open disobediance to the law cannot end happily. It's a sad but inevitable end.

rcn

Anonymous said...

No feathers ruffled here. Just the bare facts from a plucked birds view. What a concept.
Without pain there is no change. It all seams like a past life and being a leader amoungst turkeys is not such a bad place to be.
Takes the cake to being a turkey out to left pasture.

onthestreet said...

ATAR_i said...
2:00 it's about the law, it's about Statutory Rape. It's quite objective, and no complaint is actually necessary. You can get me to agree that consenting adults can have as many partners as they like, you can get me to agree on a lot of things - but not this. I was 14 once, and my daughter is 14 now (I have 3 daughters). Any adult father, or grandfather who was taking one of those little girls home at night should die in prison.

STREET’s Reply: Mary, the Mother Of God, was 12 when she married. This is the law, the ancient and modern Bat Mitzvah, adulthood at age 12, being about your Father’s busines at age 12, which is Fatherhood. Jesus was 12 when He said that. But what does He say about those in the last days who shall forbid men to marry (1 Tim. 4):

1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 - Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 - Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats (strong doctrine), which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 - For every creature of God (every girl) is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 - For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Gal. 5:
22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 - Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 - And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

ATAR_i said...

You know Street - that MAY or MAY not be correct a couple thousand years ago.

I also recall the Bible states they could stone people in the streets.

Women are not sent away to a tent during their menses.

People don't wash other people feet any more (ok I've seen it done, but it's unusual).

BTW - if you want to forsake everything - don't cherry pick. I'll expect to see you riding a donkey (and not in a car), and I'll expect to see you with a flock of sheep or collecting taxes door to door, no heat, no AC, no stoves, dishwashers, computers (oh yeah - that means you need to leave this blog).

Anonymous said...

If the Holy Ghost or God Himself can impregnate a girl at age twelve, so be it, but if a mortal man does it, he needs to wait until she is older.

Anonymous said...

Where does this tradition of 12 years old for Mary originate?

Anonymous said...

I'd heard as young as 14, but never 12. Considering that God, the creator of all beings understood that the cervix of a human female does not really mature before about the age of 16, I would think that that may have been her age. This fact has only been discovered within the past few months by gynacologists.

The debate is was she 12, 14, 15, 16, 18? I haven't seen proof that is convincing as to Mary's age.

Remember this, Mary was a chosen vessel, not picked at random. She was asked her opinion and her question was proof of the fact that she was a virgin. She was told how it was to come about and she WILLINGLY surrendered to God's Spirit and conceived without ever being physically touched by any male figure. When given the opportunity to tell her kinsman Elizabeth the news of her pregnancy, John, called the Baptist, lept with joy within Elizabeth's womb.

Joseph, whom she was to marry was also visited by the angel in a dream and willingly took her to wife, but knew her not until the child (Jesus) was born. The couple had other children besides Jesus so Mary did not remain a virgin. She fulfilled her love for her husband in the normal manner and bore him several children.

rcn

saar said...

I doubt it!

God does not do things without true science backing it. (Makes for a good story tho)

Like pregnancy happens to girls just from swimming in a swimming pool...maybe she was just swimming

Anonymous said...

For argument's sake. If God IS God, creator of all things he understands science that is yet hidden from the minds of mortal man. He knows things that are so simple to him but so complex to mankind that when a discovery is made the world gasps in wonder.

Think about the length of time it took to discover electricity, to develop the light bulb, the telephone, A.C. & D.C. electrical current, how to build an electric motor, how to design the working of gears, shafte, pullys, chains, belts. Consider the development of hydrocarbon fuel, to replace whale oil in lighting rural America, and the world. Think about Aeronautics, radio, television, microwave, microchip, digital operated euipment. Think about the discovery of antiseptic surgury, the microscope, the discovery of penicillin and modern antibotics. Think about the advances in medicine related to the discovery of DNA. I could go on and on. IF God IS God, and I have no doubt that HE IS, I believe the conception of a Holy child by God in the body of a young woman is a pretty simple act to believe.

rcn

ATAR_i said...

I learned about a womans cervix not being mature in the late 80's. I don't think it was new information back then either.

Anonymous said...

Well atar_i,

I'm rather backward and I only learned about it as a result of your revelation, but the premise sounds very reasonable. I don't think that God would do anything to harm his chosen vessel to carry the fetus and Holy Child, Jesus. I think I'll stick with older than 12. Another reason, maturity. Girls 12 years old are beginning to develop physically, but are still a long way from being emotionally mature.

I could have fathered a child at 12, but I didn't until I was 25 and then I still wondered if I had the maturity to meet the needs of the child and it's mother.

Physiological ability doesn't determine mental, moral, judgemental or the maturity of an individual.

rcn

Anonymous said...

To the original thread....

Seems like MIB has not lied, McCain has moved to the hot seat. Rumor has it a Demorcratic U.S. Senator is next!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00396.htm

Senator John Mccain Passes The Buck On Polygamy

Friday, 26 May 2006, 3:22 pm
Opinion: Suzan Mazur


http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3840415

Leahy singles out Hatch on plural marriage

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00364.htm
Reports Reconfirm Hatch Said He Condones Polygamy
Wednesday, 24 May 2006, 1:38 pm
Article: Suzan Mazur

When Orrin Hatch said, "thats not what I said", it seems that several news agencies differed with that, catching him in a current lie. A tangled web they weave and a paper trail rarely lies.

A mini raid on Colorado City, a temporary mayor arrested, a lawsuit against the former trustee's, Warrenite business connections and contracts exposed, WHAT WILL COME NEXT?

Just pick up the paper tomorrow and there will be more!

onthestreet said...

ATARI Said (5/25/2006 8:44 AM):

I also recall the Bible states they could stone people in the streets.

Women are not sent away to a tent during their menses.

People don't wash other people feet any more (ok I've seen it done, but it's unusual).



STREET's Reply: You want to bet. They DO stone people today. How many stones have you thrown at the Prophet so far, seeking to bring him down with your harness of heart and with the stones in you gall.

Women are indeed sent away to their tent. Hebrew for tent is: "Ohel", which means "dwelling, home, habitation, sacred dwelling of Jehovah, tabernacle". See, even the elaborate mansion of Israel's Tabernacle was labled a "tent".

Analyze it: Ten-t. There you go: Ten what? Seferot, and what else? Unified through the Tet (final "t").

No washing of feet? Unusual? WRONG! That is what saints do. So now that you've confessed to having no such blessing or law, what are you?

onthestreet said...

ATARI Said (5/18/2006 7:57 AM): I was 14 once, and my daughter is 14 now (I have 3 daughters). Any adult father, or grandfather who was taking one of those little girls home at night should die in prison.

STREET’s Reply: Well, let’s see. God the Father conceive a child of the Virgin Mary who was twelve, and God was, let’s see, at least a HUNDRED, no more like a THOUSAND! Wait! A MILLION YEARS OLD, and what did the fruits of that “improper and unequal marriage say about that? “Be ye even as the Father”. He is perfect, so you can’t put him in jail. Oh, you can accuse God all you want, but where does it land you when you accuse the KING, the JUDGE, the EXECUTIONER of the Law, He who commands us to be like Him?

IT MAKES YOU THE ANTI-CHRIST.

onthestreet said...

MUDSWAMP Said:

I don't say that the things you so strongly support are not true or correct, but you must be able to make them provable as fact in court.

Therefore, as I said in the original post, all this effort amounts to is yellow journalism, sensationalism for the want of being noticed. 5/16/2006 10:44 AM


STREET's Reply: Well now, to prove anything in a "court of law", what do you need? Ahh, very good, you need a court of law. Now what do we find? Courts that elect presidents and robb the people of their very voting franchise, courts that command the murder of millions of innocent children and call it "womens' choice", courts that legislate from the bench and get bought and paid for by the highest bidder. See, to prove anything in a "court of law", you need a court of law, not a court of lawlessness and "discretionary judgement" to suit their fancy.

The colonists threw off the courts of England with a war, and God is now at war.

See? Christ hid himself (as God the Father hides his face from the wicked as He slays them by the millions), until they finally got enough criminals behind them to pull off an arrest and drag him to a court of mockings and scourgings, and finally a court with innocent blood on their hands, forever and ever.

SO MUCH FOR YOUR "court of law".

onthestreet said...

Anonymous said...
If the Holy Ghost or God Himself can impregnate a girl at age twelve, so be it, but if a mortal man does it, he needs to wait until she is older.
5/25/2006 6:27 PM

Anonymous said...
Where does this tradition of 12 years old for Mary originate? 5/25/2006 6:32 PM

STREET’s Reply: Jesus said it best: “Be ye even as the Father”. A girl reaches puberty around 12. The tradition of girls marrying at twelve runs throughout the history of the Jews. Ask any Jew. It is also the very law of the land, the Bat Mitzvah, which is the ceremony celebrating the adulthood of girls at age 12, entering into motherhood. Finally, Jesus Himself set the example at age 12: “Wish ye not that I be about my Father’s business”. Now you tell me, what is the business of a father? FATHERHOOD, at age 12. It is the legitimate law of the land, the Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitxvah. Furthermore, I posted earlier extensive evidence of the etymology of terms that prove in the very language that marriage at age twelve is the law of the land. Here is just one of those items from that post: “L-AND”: “L” is the twelvth letter, the “AND” shows one being added upon, married, and impregnated lawfully, and that means without intercourse. Divine nature is not animal nature, but divine. Then, they are virgins still, are they not? (Rev. 14):

1 - And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 - And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 - And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 - These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

RCN wants you all to believe that Mary was not a virgin (5/25/2006 8:43 PM). The Mother of God always was and always will be a virgin, for a godly man dealt with her after that manner, even as God the Father did, and Christ said: "Be ye even as the Father".

You are either virgin, or you have prostituted yourselves.

onthestreet said...

RCN SAID: I could have fathered a child at 12, but I didn't until I was 25 and then I still wondered if I had the maturity to meet the needs of the child and it's mother.

Physiological ability doesn't determine mental, moral, judgemental or the maturity of an individual.


STREET's Reply: That's right. Even at age 25 and beyond, your Physiological ability doesn't determine mental, moral, judgemental or maturity.

That is a fine confession, my child.

ATAR_i said...

Perhaps I'll see you one day on the Dateline NBC 'To Catch a Preditor' segments.

I'll know it's you when you start spouting how you weren't really there to have sex with the 12 year old, you just wanted to immaculately conceive with her, and perhaps bring her little brother with her when she comes to be your bride...and then of course something about 'Mary', and some other demented ramblings.

Apparently there is no shortage of men who believe JUST LIKE YOU - so I imagine those Dateling NBC stings will keep airing - see you soon.

mugwump said...

atar_i

From some of his earlier contributions I seriously doubt that he could rise to the occasion

ATAR_i said...

Smashing double entendre!

mugwump said...

Thanks, I doubt that he caught on.

onthestreet said...

There are seven planes of meaning, from the literal to the allegorical, exoteric, and the esoteric, things that cannot be smashed, not even in an adam smasher (that is no typo).

ATAR_i said...

You can google it - but do you understand it?

mugwump said...

atar_i

I believe that the concept of double entendre is above his capability.

onthestreet said...

That's right, Tarry. You can Google it, but do you understand it.

ATAR_i said...

Mugs authored it, I commended him - you didn't appear to understand his words nor my response.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, appearances are so deceiving, aren't they. This is why you are so continually aroused, like a young chick in its nest when the hunters sweep the field.

ATAR_i said...

I didn't think you could GET a chicken hunting license.

Weird allegory.

mugwump said...

atar_i

if soddy bottom squatted to rise he'd get shot before he ever left the ground.

onthestreet said...

Like I said earlier, mudrump:
That there name you’re callin me is might complimentary. Sod is beautiful green lush grass, the sign of life and luxury. Thanky thanky, and for your muddy rumpy, spanky spanky.

mugwump said...

Soddy-bottom

Soddy has nothing to do with sod., grass, green or dead. It refers to sodomistic behavior.

Bottom refers to the part of the human anatomy to which sodomist finds favor.

onthestreet said...

Oh, but everyone KNOWS your error. Sod is INDEED grass, regardless of your fantasies to the contrary.

For one to dwell so tenaciously on sodomy vs purity betrays your sorry state of affairs. Come on Les, let's get that muddy rump of yours unstuck.

furnace said...

You're the one that will somehow convert a conversation about man going to the moon into an act of sodomy; you highjack every thread and suddenly talk about the immoral implications of things that were never immoral. So, whose state of mind is wretched?

onthestreet said...

Why, the very thought of suggesting that man bolted together a spaceship, and flew to the Paradise that Christ only promises to the faithful, is indeed immoral and wretched.

Ummm, your spacecraft never arrived. It was hijacked, along with the public imagination and the most enormous funding source of any government plot.

onthestreet said...

That was sodomy. You wuz indeed SKWUWD.

furnace said...

Street, I would suggest you not prove our points for us.

Anonymous said...

Furnace, you won that match. Checkmate!