FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Sunday, February 12, 2006
FBI Subpoenas
What is the latest news on the convening of the Grand Jury? The last report I saw had 5 out of 66 subpoenas served. Have any others been served? When will the Grand Jury convene, or has it already happened. Fill us in if you have any info.
81 comments:
Anonymous
said...
It is most likely the grand jury issued the subpoenas. Most likely grand jury is secret type where identies and location are kept secret to protect members of jury. When a grand jury is called it is to look into additional charges and violations, perhaps for Warren Jeffs or others. Racketeering, aiding fugatives, operating ilegal business, fraud, stolen property moved across state lines, and transporting minors across state lines for sexual purposes just to name a few things the grand jury could be looking at. They do this by issueing subpoenas.
For more info on grand juries try http://www.courttv.com
Since this discussion seems to be over before it began, let's change the subject. I heard that Wisan was shut down in his surveying of the property by the judge. Is this true? If so what is being done now to help those who so desire keep their home out of a tax sale?
I was not shut down by the judge. The surveying is currently going on in Hildale The crew are working 4/10 hour days and will be back on Monday. Thank you for your concern.
Your welcome. And I want to clarify that I don't want to see photos of mothers and children here - only the main players like deacons, or profits, or bodyguards, just the main players not the followers.
I never gave the URL for the information I read. So how would you know which article I read?
You might not be mad - but you sure do assume a lot, and get a little snooty about things (like a teacher looking down their nose and telling someone to reread their Tom Sawyer book to find out how Anne of Green Gables gets to Avonlea).
FYI - the photo was obtained from a google image search.
When I was younger, my sister and I got the whole movie on cassette tape and we would try to recreate the scenes - our personal favorite - the cave scene.
Where are you?
I'm here here here
Jodie Foster was an excellent Becky - and we were never able to recreate the echo - we really tried though.
Don't forget Injun Joe jumping through the courtroom window (I really love the visuals of the movie - I don't even know if that was in the book).
Since I'm just clay in the Master's hand I can't make myself be anything. Even if I could, why would I want to. I'd rather let him take the clay and make of it what his will desires.
Just remember this. My Master is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not now, never has been nor ever will be Warren Jeffs or anyone whose shoes he (WJ) has filled nor anyone who aspires to fill his (WJ's)shoes.
OTS, yes perhaps I shouldn't make jewelry, I'll go out and molest some children, rob some friends and break a bucket load of laws so I can be more like warren (gee - I think I like my way better).
To be just, shouldn't Jeffs cast himself out? A wanted felon on the run from the law, looser in a civil case related to his having sexually assalted his own nephew, a thief who appropriated FLDS funds to finance his own dreams and fantasy.
Can this little man truly believe that anyone with any discernment would want to look up to him for anything?
Warren Jeffs is an abysimal failure at everything in life except the stroking of his own ego.
Yeah, I guess I would like to live by the laws of some societies - but your a Cherry Picker and are just picking and choosing the laws from different lands at different times you want to obey.
I'm guessing you wouldn't be so keen on following ALL the acceptable situations from that time - just THAT one.
I'd like to remind you of a few things.
1. You don't even like to obey the laws of today 2. Whatever it might have been in the past - it's rape today. 3. You're not even Jewish
I think you just do what you want to do - and jusify it however you want to. Trying here to justify it with cultural mores is a joke. Those might have been the values then and thus acceptable. But they aren't the values now, and thus unacceptable.
So, don't complain when the soldiers drag you off for defying the laws and cultures of today (they punished lawbreakers back then too). You're lucky - the values of today mean we don't get to behead you, or hang you upside down from a cross (you just have to go to jail).
Well, I can tell you for sure that if and when Jeffs ever is brought to trial and evidence presented is sufficient to convict little jeffy is a "has been."
You don't know enough about Jesus to make any comment. Repeatedly during the last journey from Galilee to Jerusalem Jesus told his diciples that when he arrived in Jerusalem he was to undergo all the trials that are historically documented and Biblically. He repeatedly said that he was going to be tried by both Jewish and Roman authorities and then crucified. In the final apearance before the Roman Governor Pilate stated that he found no fault with Him, but to appease the crowd he released Barrabas and gave Jesus over to be crucified.
Praise God that was not the end of the event. On the third day Jesus arose from the grave, was seen over a period of forty days by upward of 500 people. The whole purpose of his life was to experience this trial, this unjust conviction, this cruel crucifixion and being buried in a borrowed tomb was to demonstrate to man that He, Jesus, had conquered death, thereby atoning for the full redemption of man from the curse of Adam's sin, past, present and future.
That Jesus was on the run is a statement from someone who wants to claim authority but simply doesn't have the necessary tools to establish credibility.
No wonder little jeffy has such a percecution complex and such gigantic ego. With OTS acting as his masseur jeffy is constantly being stroked, petted, pampered, pitted and on the run.
By the way, Jeffs lost the molestation case by default. Evidence was presented to substantiate the claim but jeffy thought so little of the incident he didn't show up in court to present evidence in rebuttal. As far as the court record is concerned jeffy is guilty.
OTS continues to bloviate in an effort to convince himself of the justification of abhorrent acts performed by of his tiny prophet little jeffy. By taking scripture out of context, justifying unexceptable behavior today by reference to long since dead practices of ancient times he just paints himself into a tighter corner. Longivity and the greater assurance of an individual attaining a more advanced age in the modern world has made the necessity of children needing to become mothers at puberty is nonsense. Sixteen or seventeen is still too young to accept the full responsability of parenting today. The child of a union between mature adults is much less apt to be neglected, to learn the benefits of genuine love, will learn vales that can make both the parent and child more comfortable because the parent wasn't robbed of childhood and the child is not part of a mass production cult. But then if one considers women and children to be breeding stock and the bargaining chips to gain a higher position in the priesthood, what can you expect.
The banning of all laughter and forms of entertinment is unnatural. Joy and laughter are healthy expressions of a happy home, marriage and childhood. Caution needs to be urged in oversight to ensure that "play" is not harmful physically or morally but "play" is normal to development of character and personality. The order to ban laughter has removed the expression of the joy of life. Only a despot with a severe personality defect would order such a thing.
So OTS now aspires to become a member of the Supreme Court! Wow, am I impressed. I guess jeffy can be his clerk. I see it now, all decisions are decided by 8 to 1 because OTS & jeffy don't know jack about law, the intrepetation thereof or just what law enforcement is designated to be and do.
Remember little old Joe S. & Co. were hatched out of the era of the Great Awakening, from which spun a multitude of non-reformist groups, many have become mainstream denominations within out borders. This phenomea occcurred AFTER the U.S. had gained independence from England. It wasn't joe & company that won America's Independence, they have demonstrated an anti-Americanism toward marriage and race.
If they want total independence why don't they take some of the money they stole from FLDS and buy themselves an island in the South Pacific. I mean wouldn't that , according to their myths take them part way back to Israel, from whence they claim to have come. They just demonstrate that they have a great need to take all the hard won freedoms as their own without assuming the responsibilities of citizenship.
What is a non-reformist group? I thought the purpose of the BOM and other teachings from JS were intended to reform. In fact the whole religion of mormonism IS a reformation of all others. You may not like the new form it took, but you have to admit it was a drastic change from the religions of the day.
BTW, I have to make a disclaimer that although warren and co. started out from the religion of "Joe S. and Co." you cannot in truth lay the teachings of warren at the feet of JS. Warren has turned many of his teachings upside down. While there may be threads of the truth JS taught intermingled, warren has egregiously perverted them beyond recognition from a true fundamentalist veiwpoint.
To me a non-reformist would be from a group that did now owe it's beginnings to having sprung from a denomination sparked by the reformation. Reformist therefore would include those who, including Luther, led their particular group to break with the Roman Catholics. Maybe I should have called them Calvanists, but Calvin was a part of the Reformation. Hyper-Calvanists include those who believe that they have a very strict set of rules to which they must adhere in order to remain in the fellowship of their particular sect. To fail to do so gains them strong accusations and admonishment. They are never able to make up their short-fall in the eyes of the fellowship, but are considered to they dying day as being of lesser value.
Armenists believe in God's Grace, but believe in doing good works too. They believe that their good works are essential to their salvation. They also believe that a professing Christian can fall from grace. My problem with this idea is that an individual can decide on a day by day basis whether he or she wants to be saved or lost. Where is God in this equation?
There are many groups within the U.S. that would fall into one of these two categories.
A third group are those who believe that salvation cannot be earned, but is a gift of God. These teach that God's gift to man is then to be reflected by the good works of the man whom God has saved. It is God whom is glorified by these good works therefore His sacrifice on the cross was not in vain, but is being demonstrated by those who believe and trust in Him for their salvation. How? By the exlemplary though imperfect lives his children live.
There are other groups, including Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses who have a completely different understanding of who God and Jesus are.
I take your exception re. wj vs. js to heart. I hope that you are right. Maybe you can answer a very puzzling question regarding FLDS vs. LDS.
If I were to believe OTS's statements as being current Fundamentalist Morman theology then I have to think that the FLDS has departed from calling itself the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Has FLDS as a whole renounced the diety of Jesus? OTS profound statements are so rambling and incoherant it is hard to tell if he speaks for the group or only in his own behalf or in behalf of Jeffs and his immediate cronies. Can you answer this question?
In the "Truth" magazines, there are editorials about the sinful nature of delaying marriage once one is of an age to bear children. So taken to an extreme, if a girl can biologically have a child at 12, it is sinful to wait until she is older.
I'm not supporting underage marriages, but I am pointing out history.
Uncle Roy got to where he privately condemned underaged marriages to those that would listen to him, yet he allowed it when pressured. In one case, a man pressured him for a young girl, and immediately after the bridal salute, he retorted "I hope that makes you happy, now!" That sure is a holy way to start out a marriage.
Atar's question first. The Truth magazine was a publication printed by the leaders of the fundamentalist Mormon movement in the 1930-mid '40s. It contained the rebuttals to the claims of the LDS church that these men were liars. It mostly contains reprints of discourses from the early history (JS, BY and John Taylor period) of Mormonism with editorials on various topics of faith. About this time the LDS church called on all the faithful members to bring their old books in and had them destroyed. There is a lot in the old discourses that causes the current LDS leaders embarrassment. The Truth magazine was an attempt to keep those teachings from being smothered among the people. At the time it was printed having them in your home was reason for excomunication from the LDS church.
For anonymous 5:03. Thanks for your explanation. I understand what you meant by non-reformist now.
I have been out of the loop of the FLDS for going on six years and things were changing so fast then I could not tell you where they are now. At that time warren was teaching that Jesus was the son God, but also was somehow His (God's) father as well. Somewhat of a twist on the Catholic idea of the deity. Three in one and one in Three. I don't think they have thrown Jesus away as a character in their deity, they have just superceded his teachings with new revelations.
Street's purposes here are obviously not to explain anything. He is perhaps trying to create diversions to get the heat off of warren. He will say anything that he feels will accomplish his purpose. He perhaps does not realize his ramblings are turning more people against warren than toward him.
Or on the other hand, maybe he does. Perhaps OTS is someone who really wants to destroy warren and so is painting him to be even more screwed up than he really is. It is anyone's guess. Either Atar is correct in assuming Street has multiple personalities or he is a very intelligent person portraying himself as such.
fttc - someone suggested that there are multiple writers who use the OTS nickname when they post - perhaps using the same computer.
I actually think this is the most plausible explanation for his wildly different communication abilities.
I think the most frequent poster could be male or female (probably male), and the infrequent poster, who appears to be mentally stable and rational - posts infrequently and could be a spouse.
Or, if it truly is one person - I don't think anyone can fake mental instability like that. I believe that OTS is imblanaced enough that potentially - it is the same person - with different identities inside.
I don't think he is the mouthpiece of warren - more like the byproduct of warren.
Of course, those are just best guesses - perhaps he will reveal himself some time.
fttc - someone suggested that there are multiple writers who use the OTS nickname when they post - perhaps using the same computer.
I actually think this is the most plausible explanation for his wildly different communication abilities.
I think the most frequent poster could be male or female (probably male), and the infrequent poster, who appears to be mentally stable and rational - posts infrequently and could be a spouse.
Or, if it truly is one person - I don't think anyone can fake mental instability like that. I believe that OTS is imblanaced enough that potentially - it is the same person - with different identities inside.
I don't think he is the mouthpiece of warren - more like the byproduct of warren.
Of course, those are just best guesses - perhaps he will reveal himself some time.
It's interesting - If you can't figure who I am - your ignoring it (let's just forget the other threads where you bash your skull against the virtual blog walls trying to guess and fail).
Yet if I can't figure it out who you are - I'm blind.
Ahem, send the mentally stable OTS back (it must be your wife). Does it ever bother you that her brain is more powerful and healthy that yours?
This word takes its room from the word lendh which has an indo European root.
In etymology, a root comprises the core form of a word, often in a primitive attestation or even in a reconstruction. root forms have importance in deducing the structure of language families.
I expect better work from someone who is trying to Get the secret code".
Anonymous said This was a LOT of money for these charges. Where do 19 year old boys get this kind of bail money?
If they didn't have cash for the bail, then who had enough property to offer as a bond? 1/16/2006 11:39 PM
STREET'S Reply: Alot of small minds, stumbling over a gnat and swallowing a camel whenever the child of anybody remotely FLDS has growing pains, and scrapes up enough to try and better his situation in life. You have to wonder who the real perverts are, and the real criminal, seeing how they wallow so low, yes?
Actually that was Hyropak. It was a company held primarily by the Fundamentalist group but it was another set of men.
BTW, Hydropak was totally cleared of any resposibility in the accident. The problem with the O-rings was in the engineering by NASA, not in the manufacture of the seals.
I remember when the shuttle exploded. We watched the launch on tv at school. After that, the men at hydropak were very nervous and there were federal agents all over the place asking questions. Turns out the air temperature at Cape Canaveral was in thelow 30's and the cold air made the seals brittle
Street said....You fokes there in Eldorado are right at the door of something very, very great. It is something that this world has never yet seen since Adam, the winding up scene pointing right to Zion itself, in very word, name, and deed. And why there? Why El-dor-ado? “El” is “the”, and “God”. Thus: “The Door”, or “God’s Door”.
3/09/2006 6:25 AM
Oh, boy. El Dorado-you gonna love this Street Spanish-The City of Gold.
As for being right at the door of something very, very great. Well we are on the same parallel as the real Jeruselem and City of Zion, Israel.
Just thought to remind you of that when on the real judgement day comes and the Lord will not hold me accountable for your folly.
Street ALSO SAID...Now, let’s continue where we left off, regarding the marriage of true virgins at the age of 12. Of course, some of them are married at birth, and some at the age of 6.
Let me remind you. That is illegal in Texas my feind.
First I'll translate into the original Greek, (one moment), now from Latin into pig-latin (I bet you didn't know that's key in most of streeties mind bending visions), now into Hebrew, (another moment).
Now I take out all the letters that are left over and eliminate the duplicates (one more moment), and scramble it up - and decode the message.
It's becoming clearer - just one moment
You will never believe the subliminal message that Street's three postings REALLY MEANT.
OTS is going to completely lose his mind if he doesn't get to "taste" another 12 year old. Hurry FBI, this guy must have molested his daughters and sisters and actually is one of the few that deserved to be sent away. Catch him quick FBI before he molests again.
I think this is part of streets made up language. I had a neighbor who made up her own little language too.
We called it 'oddee boddee boo' because that ended up comprising one of her main sayings. She was a 'little odd' and didn't fair so well in life either.
This is actually a symptom of a major behavioral disorder.
When the PERFECT demands repentance from those who are only 'good', they what is the rest of the world to do?
CLAIMING PERFECTION IS CLAIMING EQUALITY WITH GOD.
Don't think that's such a good idea street. As a matter of fact it is utterly absurd. But then, so are the great majority of your more recent comments.
81 comments:
It is most likely the grand jury issued the subpoenas. Most likely grand jury is secret type where identies and location are kept secret to protect members of jury. When a grand jury is called it is to look into additional charges and violations, perhaps for Warren Jeffs or others. Racketeering, aiding fugatives, operating ilegal business, fraud, stolen property moved across state lines, and transporting minors across state lines for sexual purposes just to name a few things the grand jury could be looking at. They do this by issueing subpoenas.
For more info on grand juries try
http://www.courttv.com
http://www.findlaw.com
IT DID'NT HAPPEN!
Those that know ain't talking, and those that are talking don't know.
If the raid did not happen are work meetings still being held? Are we misinformed on that as well?
Furnace- I was afraid that was the case.
It happened...nobody will talk about it tho.
Haven't seen any work meetings since.
Rhi
Are they under a court order not to? Or is it just the normal denial and secrecy?
BOTH
The officials are sworn to secretcy. And the FLDS won't talk.
Since this discussion seems to be over before it began, let's change the subject. I heard that Wisan was shut down in his surveying of the property by the judge. Is this true? If so what is being done now to help those who so desire keep their home out of a tax sale?
the way to keep a property from tax sale is to pay the taxes, duh!
I was not shut down by the judge. The surveying is currently going on in Hildale The crew are working 4/10 hour days and will be back on Monday. Thank you for your concern.
Does anyone have the interest/time to set up an informational photo information site with mugs or snaps of the main players.
For instance - this link shows a picture of Seth Jeffs.
Photo of Seth and Lyle Jeffs
Better one of Seth
For anyone new to this board - this streaming video gives some background information.
Video
Thank Atar_i very interesting
Your welcome. And I want to clarify that I don't want to see photos of mothers and children here - only the main players like deacons, or profits, or bodyguards, just the main players not the followers.
http://nvpolygamy.blogspot.com
Feel free to post and comment.
What ever happened to the 60 or so acres purchased in Mancos by David Allred for the church?
ATAR_i said...
What ever happened to the 60 or so acres purchased in Mancos by David Allred for the church?
Not much.
Atari where have you been. Thank you for the VIDEO. When did it air?
Winston has aged gracefully. So has Jane and Deb.
Oh, just busy doing stuff - how about you?
Just been doing stuff too. Cooking, cleaning, cooking, cleaning and blogging.
OK, I confess, I've found a slightly new obsession - I'm making jewelry!
That can be an expensive obsession. I could not do that craft, bad eyes.
By the way thanks for indentifing Lyle Jeffs. I wondered who the dark shaded dude was who whisk bad boy Seth away.
Who is Lyle Jeffs? How did he wisk Seth away?
Yes, expensive, but I've found a way to help it partially pay for itself - to justify yet more supplies. UGH.
OK Atari....how did you know it was Lyle Jeffs? Where did you get this photo?
This photo was taken as the sun shade dude and Seth left from the federal building in Denver several months ago.
Believe Mike Watkiss got this video/photo of them coming from the building?
Good Bye!
OK, it was a question - not a statement: "who is lyle jeffs? and how did he wisk seth away". It was in response to a previous post.
Why the exclamation (!) after the goodbye - are you mad?
ATAR_i said...
Who is Lyle Jeffs? How did he wisk Seth away?
2/23/2006 7:34 AM
I guess you can go back to where you got the photo and reread the story to answer your own question.
No I am not mad.
I never gave the URL for the information I read. So how would you know which article I read?
You might not be mad - but you sure do assume a lot, and get a little snooty about things (like a teacher looking down their nose and telling someone to reread their Tom Sawyer book to find out how Anne of Green Gables gets to Avonlea).
FYI - the photo was obtained from a google image search.
When I was younger, my sister and I got the whole movie on cassette tape and we would try to recreate the scenes - our personal favorite - the cave scene.
Where are you?
I'm here here here
Jodie Foster was an excellent Becky - and we were never able to recreate the echo - we really tried though.
Don't forget Injun Joe jumping through the courtroom window (I really love the visuals of the movie - I don't even know if that was in the book).
Since I'm just clay in the Master's hand I can't make myself be anything. Even if I could, why would I want to. I'd rather let him take the clay and make of it what his will desires.
Just remember this. My Master is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not now, never has been nor ever will be Warren Jeffs or anyone whose shoes he (WJ) has filled nor anyone who aspires to fill his (WJ's)shoes.
Anon. 9:10
That was very well put. You make an excellent point and one the FLDS would do well to incorporate into their hearts and minds.
OTS, yes perhaps I shouldn't make jewelry, I'll go out and molest some children, rob some friends and break a bucket load of laws so I can be more like warren (gee - I think I like my way better).
He clearly hasn't cast out everyone because he's still there.
To be just, shouldn't Jeffs cast himself out? A wanted felon on the run from the law, looser in a civil case related to his having sexually assalted his own nephew, a thief who appropriated FLDS funds to finance his own dreams and fantasy.
Can this little man truly believe that anyone with any discernment would want to look up to him for anything?
Warren Jeffs is an abysimal failure at everything in life except the stroking of his own ego.
http://nvpolygamy.blogspot.com
It's back up.
Yeah, I guess I would like to live by the laws of some societies - but your a Cherry Picker and are just picking and choosing the laws from different lands at different times you want to obey.
I'm guessing you wouldn't be so keen on following ALL the acceptable situations from that time - just THAT one.
I'd like to remind you of a few things.
1. You don't even like to obey the laws of today
2. Whatever it might have been in the past - it's rape today.
3. You're not even Jewish
I think you just do what you want to do - and jusify it however you want to. Trying here to justify it with cultural mores is a joke. Those might have been the values then and thus acceptable. But they aren't the values now, and thus unacceptable.
So, don't complain when the soldiers drag you off for defying the laws and cultures of today (they punished lawbreakers back then too). You're lucky - the values of today mean we don't get to behead you, or hang you upside down from a cross (you just have to go to jail).
putz
Well, I can tell you for sure that if and when Jeffs ever is brought to trial and evidence presented is sufficient to convict little jeffy is a "has been."
You don't know enough about Jesus to make any comment. Repeatedly during the last journey from Galilee to Jerusalem Jesus told his diciples that when he arrived in Jerusalem he was to undergo all the trials that are historically documented and Biblically. He repeatedly said that he was going to be tried by both Jewish and Roman authorities and then crucified. In the final apearance before the Roman Governor Pilate stated that he found no fault with Him, but to appease the crowd he released Barrabas and gave Jesus over to be crucified.
Praise God that was not the end of the event. On the third day Jesus arose from the grave, was seen over a period of forty days by upward of 500 people. The whole purpose of his life was to experience this trial, this unjust conviction, this cruel crucifixion and being buried in a borrowed tomb was to demonstrate to man that He, Jesus, had conquered death, thereby atoning for the full redemption of man from the curse of Adam's sin, past, present and future.
That Jesus was on the run is a statement from someone who wants to claim authority but simply doesn't have the necessary tools to establish credibility.
No wonder little jeffy has such a percecution complex and such gigantic ego. With OTS acting as his masseur jeffy is constantly being stroked, petted, pampered, pitted and on the run.
By the way, Jeffs lost the molestation case by default. Evidence was presented to substantiate the claim but jeffy thought so little of the incident he didn't show up in court to present evidence in rebuttal. As far as the court record is concerned jeffy is guilty.
guess
Much ado about nothing. And no doubt you will.
OTS continues to bloviate in an effort to convince himself of the justification of abhorrent acts performed by of his tiny prophet little jeffy. By taking scripture out of context, justifying unexceptable behavior today by reference to long since dead practices of ancient times he just paints himself into a tighter corner. Longivity and the greater assurance of an individual attaining a more advanced age in the modern world has made the necessity of children needing to become mothers at puberty is nonsense. Sixteen or seventeen is still too young to accept the full responsability of parenting today. The child of a union between mature adults is much less apt to be neglected, to learn the benefits of genuine love, will learn vales that can make both the parent and child more comfortable because the parent wasn't robbed of childhood and the child is not part of a mass production cult. But then if one considers women and children to be breeding stock and the bargaining chips to gain a higher position in the priesthood, what can you expect.
The banning of all laughter and forms of entertinment is unnatural. Joy and laughter are healthy expressions of a happy home, marriage and childhood. Caution needs to be urged in oversight to ensure that "play" is not harmful physically or morally but "play" is normal to development of character and personality. The order to ban laughter has removed the expression of the joy of life. Only a despot with a severe personality defect would order such a thing.
So OTS now aspires to become a member of the Supreme Court! Wow, am I impressed. I guess jeffy can be his clerk. I see it now, all decisions are decided by 8 to 1 because OTS & jeffy don't know jack about law, the intrepetation thereof or just what law enforcement is designated to be and do.
Remember little old Joe S. & Co. were hatched out of the era of the Great Awakening, from which spun a multitude of non-reformist groups, many have become mainstream denominations within out borders. This phenomea occcurred AFTER the U.S. had gained independence from England. It wasn't joe & company that won America's Independence, they have demonstrated an anti-Americanism toward marriage and race.
If they want total independence why don't they take some of the money they stole from FLDS and buy themselves an island in the South Pacific. I mean wouldn't that , according to their myths take them part way back to Israel, from whence they claim to have come. They just demonstrate that they have a great need to take all the hard won freedoms as their own without assuming the responsibilities of citizenship.
Grow up.
What is a non-reformist group? I thought the purpose of the BOM and other teachings from JS were intended to reform. In fact the whole religion of mormonism IS a reformation of all others. You may not like the new form it took, but you have to admit it was a drastic change from the religions of the day.
BTW, I have to make a disclaimer that although warren and co. started out from the religion of "Joe S. and Co." you cannot in truth lay the teachings of warren at the feet of JS. Warren has turned many of his teachings upside down. While there may be threads of the truth JS taught intermingled, warren has egregiously perverted them beyond recognition from a true fundamentalist veiwpoint.
I may have used the wrong terminology.
To me a non-reformist would be from a group that did now owe it's beginnings to having sprung from a denomination sparked by the reformation. Reformist therefore would include those who, including Luther, led their particular group to break with the Roman Catholics. Maybe I should have called them Calvanists, but Calvin was a part of the Reformation. Hyper-Calvanists include those who believe that they have a very strict set of rules to which they must adhere in order to remain in the fellowship of their particular sect. To fail to do so gains them strong accusations and admonishment. They are never able to make up their short-fall in the eyes of the fellowship, but are considered to they dying day as being of lesser value.
Armenists believe in God's Grace, but believe in doing good works too. They believe that their good works are essential to their salvation. They also believe that a professing Christian can fall from grace. My problem with this idea is that an individual can decide on a day by day basis whether he or she wants to be saved or lost. Where is God in this equation?
There are many groups within the U.S. that would fall into one of these two categories.
A third group are those who believe that salvation cannot be earned, but is a gift of God. These teach that God's gift to man is then to be reflected by the good works of the man whom God has saved. It is God whom is glorified by these good works therefore His sacrifice on the cross was not in vain, but is being demonstrated by those who believe and trust in Him for their salvation. How? By the exlemplary though imperfect lives his children live.
There are other groups, including Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses who have a completely different understanding of who God and Jesus are.
I take your exception re. wj vs. js to heart. I hope that you are right. Maybe you can answer a very puzzling question regarding FLDS vs. LDS.
If I were to believe OTS's statements as being current Fundamentalist Morman theology then I have to think that the FLDS has departed from calling itself the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Has FLDS as a whole renounced the diety of Jesus? OTS profound statements are so rambling and incoherant it is hard to tell if he speaks for the group or only in his own behalf or in behalf of Jeffs and his immediate cronies. Can you answer this question?
OTS - the age that a girl is married is not a 'law of God'.
But of course - I think the pseudo prophet warren might have made one up - emphasis on MADE ONE UP.
In the "Truth" magazines, there are editorials about the sinful nature of delaying marriage once one is of an age to bear children. So taken to an extreme, if a girl can biologically have a child at 12, it is sinful to wait until she is older.
I'm not supporting underage marriages, but I am pointing out history.
Uncle Roy got to where he privately condemned underaged marriages to those that would listen to him, yet he allowed it when pressured. In one case, a man pressured him for a young girl, and immediately after the bridal salute, he retorted "I hope that makes you happy, now!" That sure is a holy way to start out a marriage.
What is a "Truth" magazine?
ditto atar_i's question
Atar's question first. The Truth magazine was a publication printed by the leaders of the fundamentalist Mormon movement in the 1930-mid '40s. It contained the rebuttals to the claims of the LDS church that these men were liars. It mostly contains reprints of discourses from the early history
(JS, BY and John Taylor period) of Mormonism with editorials on various topics of faith. About this time the LDS church called on all the faithful members to bring their old books in and had them destroyed. There is a lot in the old discourses that causes the current LDS leaders embarrassment. The Truth magazine was an attempt to keep those teachings from being smothered among the people. At the time it was printed having them in your home was reason for excomunication from the LDS church.
For anonymous 5:03. Thanks for your explanation. I understand what you meant by non-reformist now.
I have been out of the loop of the FLDS for going on six years and things were changing so fast then I could not tell you where they are now. At that time warren was teaching that Jesus was the son God, but also was somehow His (God's) father as well. Somewhat of a twist on the Catholic idea of the deity. Three in one and one in Three. I don't think they have thrown Jesus away as a character in their deity, they have just superceded his teachings with new revelations.
Street's purposes here are obviously not to explain anything. He is perhaps trying to create diversions to get the heat off of warren. He will say anything that he feels will accomplish his purpose. He perhaps does not realize his ramblings are turning more people against warren than toward him.
Or on the other hand, maybe he does. Perhaps OTS is someone who really wants to destroy warren and so is painting him to be even more screwed up than he really is. It is anyone's guess. Either Atar is correct in assuming Street has multiple personalities or he is a very intelligent person portraying himself as such.
fttc - someone suggested that there are multiple writers who use the OTS nickname when they post - perhaps using the same computer.
I actually think this is the most plausible explanation for his wildly different communication abilities.
I think the most frequent poster could be male or female (probably male), and the infrequent poster, who appears to be mentally stable and rational - posts infrequently and could be a spouse.
Or, if it truly is one person - I don't think anyone can fake mental instability like that. I believe that OTS is imblanaced enough that potentially - it is the same person - with different identities inside.
I don't think he is the mouthpiece of warren - more like the byproduct of warren.
Of course, those are just best guesses - perhaps he will reveal himself some time.
fttc - someone suggested that there are multiple writers who use the OTS nickname when they post - perhaps using the same computer.
I actually think this is the most plausible explanation for his wildly different communication abilities.
I think the most frequent poster could be male or female (probably male), and the infrequent poster, who appears to be mentally stable and rational - posts infrequently and could be a spouse.
Or, if it truly is one person - I don't think anyone can fake mental instability like that. I believe that OTS is imblanaced enough that potentially - it is the same person - with different identities inside.
I don't think he is the mouthpiece of warren - more like the byproduct of warren.
Of course, those are just best guesses - perhaps he will reveal himself some time.
OTS
I have left clues,
you cannot see,
I guess that makes you,
a little like me
Perhaps not, but it does make conversation seem a little incoherent.
It's interesting - If you can't figure who I am - your ignoring it (let's just forget the other threads where you bash your skull against the virtual blog walls trying to guess and fail).
Yet if I can't figure it out who you are - I'm blind.
Ahem, send the mentally stable OTS back (it must be your wife). Does it ever bother you that her brain is more powerful and healthy that yours?
OTS - you mis-spelled Land
This word takes its room from the word lendh which has an indo European root.
In etymology, a root comprises the core form of a word, often in a primitive attestation or even in a reconstruction. root forms have importance in deducing the structure of language families.
I expect better work from someone who is trying to Get the secret code".
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, woopie, sic 'em
OTS, dude what ever your smoking has fried your mind. Dude get help, lay off the weed, crack or what ever else your smoking!
Get sober dude!
Hey OTS, did you lose your family cause you were molesting your daughters or something???
Anonymous said
This was a LOT of money for these charges. Where do 19 year old boys get this kind of bail money?
If they didn't have cash for the bail, then who had enough property to offer as a bond? 1/16/2006 11:39 PM
STREET'S Reply: Alot of small minds, stumbling over a gnat and swallowing a camel whenever the child of anybody remotely FLDS has growing pains, and scrapes up enough to try and better his situation in life. You have to wonder who the real perverts are, and the real criminal, seeing how they wallow so low, yes?
2/16/2006 8:35 PM
Anonymous notes druggies usually defend druggies.
Western Precision....
Are those the guys that made the o-ring on the Challenger?
Actually that was Hyropak. It was a company held primarily by the Fundamentalist group but it was another set of men.
BTW, Hydropak was totally cleared of any resposibility in the accident. The problem with the O-rings was in the engineering by NASA, not in the manufacture of the seals.
I remember when the shuttle exploded. We watched the launch on tv at school. After that, the men at hydropak were very nervous and there were federal agents all over the place asking questions. Turns out the air temperature at Cape Canaveral was in thelow 30's and the cold air made the seals brittle
They were nervous before launch. Lloyd Wall tried telling NASA not to lauch.
Loyd Wall was one of the brains behind Hydropak.
Whatever happened to Lloyd Wall?
Street said....You fokes there in Eldorado are right at the door of something very, very great. It is something that this world has never yet seen since Adam, the winding up scene pointing right to Zion itself, in very word, name, and deed. And why there? Why El-dor-ado? “El” is “the”, and “God”. Thus: “The Door”, or “God’s Door”.
3/09/2006 6:25 AM
Oh, boy. El Dorado-you gonna love this Street Spanish-The City of Gold.
As for being right at the door of something very, very great. Well we are on the same parallel as the real Jeruselem and City of Zion, Israel.
Just thought to remind you of that when on the real judgement day comes and the Lord will not hold me accountable for your folly.
Street ALSO SAID...Now, let’s continue where we left off, regarding the marriage of true virgins at the age of 12. Of course, some of them are married at birth, and some at the age of 6.
Let me remind you. That is illegal in Texas my feind.
So what you're saying is...
(it'll take me a second to decode since you included so much translation - thanks).
You want to play Lego's and eat Mexican treats when you go on your trip
Hey Street why are you reading from the refine Christian Bible. Leave it alone.
Why aren't you translating from Joseph Smith corrupt version?
PS Street,
My Jewish friends think you are a joke.
I think I can decode Streeties last comments.
First I'll translate into the original Greek, (one moment), now from Latin into pig-latin (I bet you didn't know that's key in most of streeties mind bending visions), now into Hebrew, (another moment).
Now I take out all the letters that are left over and eliminate the duplicates (one more moment), and scramble it up - and decode the message.
It's becoming clearer - just one moment
You will never believe the subliminal message that Street's three postings REALLY MEANT.
(DRUMROLL)
Translation
"I'm a putz"
Very good observation Atari!
Street is an example of priestcraft doing more damage to the brain than hallucinagenic drugs.
phooey - I like getting in my hot tub, late a night - looking out over the land - and being au naturel.
OTS is going to completely lose his mind if he doesn't get to "taste" another 12 year old. Hurry FBI, this guy must have molested his daughters and sisters and actually is one of the few that deserved to be sent away. Catch him quick FBI before he molests again.
You sound catholic ots. They have all these ways to get out of a marriage (even a really long one with kids).
What's a foke?
lol, arar_i. I was going to say the same thing!
I think this is part of streets made up language. I had a neighbor who made up her own little language too.
We called it 'oddee boddee boo' because that ended up comprising one of her main sayings. She was a 'little odd' and didn't fair so well in life either.
This is actually a symptom of a major behavioral disorder.
When the PERFECT demands repentance from those who are only 'good', they what is the rest of the world to do?
CLAIMING PERFECTION IS CLAIMING EQUALITY WITH GOD.
Don't think that's such a good idea street. As a matter of fact it is utterly absurd. But then, so are the great majority of your more recent comments.
rcn
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