Wednesday, February 01, 2006

Are the FLDS being persecuted?

Christ tells his disciples that they who will follow him will be persecuted. I know many of the FLDS feel like they are being persecuted by the government. warren has convinced them that the only reason he is being sought is because of his righteousness. Several posters have indicated that the "legal pressure" should be increased. At what point if any does it become persecution? Does prejudice equate with persecution?

109 comments:

fttc said...

One poster has brought out the fact that several government agencies could find enough violations in the businesses in CC/Hildale to shut them down. I don't think everything is up to par with normal business ethics in these enterprises but I know enough about government regulations to know it is almost impossible to comply with every rule. These same agencies could go into almost any business in the state and do the same thing (shut them down). My question here is how much 'pressure' can be put on the members before it becomes unethical?

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately; that's how our government is. Those people have been violating rules/laws for decades & it's about time some people got what they have coming to them. I agree these government agencies need to try to distinguish if they can between the ones who are severely breaking the laws & the ones who aren't.

furnace said...

I talked to an individual in L.E. and he informed me an astonishly high percentage of prisoners feel they didn't commit any crime but it is simply government persecution.

Keep in mind that the sexual charges of underage marriage is the published reason the State is going after Warren. These charges are provable, but the real reason they want him is to stop nonsense that is a little harder to prove. This is similar to taking down the mafia on tax evasion charges.

Paladin for Truth said...

If Warren would have been running things just half as good as Brother Barlow, Johnson, Hammon and their kind bishop Uncle Fred did, he would not be in the mess he is today. When a guy self-proclaims himself king because God did not and will not call him, what else can one expect, except that he will just mess the whole thing up. The only persecution I see is the children that have to start calling someone else, father and the young girls who are forced to grow up too fast.

Here are some of the basic beliefs of "The Work" and basic Mormonism.

Article of Faith #5:

"We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof."


Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

"The government of God has always tended to promote peace, unity, harmony, strength, and happiness; while that of man has been productive of confusion, disorder, weakness, and misery."

Is Warren of God or man? Should be pretty easy for all to see, you would think.

mugwump said...

The question is not one of persecution, but of justice.

Had Jeffs chosen to comply with legal practices he would not be sought after to be brought before a court.

It is his choice to continue to run. His running and hiding has not only caused him to become a fugitive, but all those whom he insists help him can be considered accomplices to his crime.

It doesn't matter if a person is a catholic, agnostic, FLDS, LDS, methodist, UCC, baptist or an atheist. All are subject to the law and can be arrested if their actions lead officials to believe that a crime is, has or may be committed.

Prisons are filled with forgers, embezzlers, counterfeiters, rapists, child molesters, murders, dope dealers, smugglers, robbers, thieves and all other types of criminals. Are they being persecuted? No, justice is being served. How has Jeffs activity differed from those in jail? He is wanted in two State courts on charges of child molestation and contributing to child molestation. He is wanted by the Feds because he wouldn't appear before State courts and ran to avoid having to appear. When he ran, he not only faces the State courts, but now a Federal Court related to charges of his "Flight to avoid prosecution."

Jeffs is not interested in justice. He loves to administer his own brand of justice upon those over whom he holds control. But him be brought to justice? Ha!

He deems himself above the law, more worthy than all other citizens of this earth. How dare anyone interfere with this self appointed 'divine right' to do as he wishes. After all isn't he the personification of King Warren, the eternal? To everyone else: "I alone am worthy." Obey, adore, worship and pay, and pay, and pay, and pay, ad nauseaum.

Anonymous said...

Some people I know get a stubbed toe in the night and make sure the whole world knows how bad they got hurt. Others will get a broken leg and try to be back on the job within a week. If Warren feels he is exceedingly persecuted, he reminds me of the first type.

fttc said...

The shenanigans of warren have been discussed at length on this blog. It is not so much the persecution of him I was referring to as the persecution of the people. warren took away all the social events in the community. The work meetings on Saturday were the only gathering left for them. It is true that the purpose for them was mostly for gathering funds for warren and giving work assignments. That doesn't change thet fact that it was the only event even close to a social they had. Now they have stopped this also because of the FBI 'raid' of several weeks ago.

I am not defending anything here. It is clear that a different course by the FLDS members could have avoided what they term as persecution. How much pressure such as this is proper to be placed on the people for the apprehension of their leader? Or maybe the people are as guilty as the leader?

Anonymous said...

You ask the question: "Does prejudice equate with persecution?"

I would say that all persecution comes from prejudice. I would also say that prejudice often leads to persecution.

Now the question is whether or not prejudice exists toward the FLDS community from the outside community. Yes, it does exist, and has for years and years. There is a fundamental prejudice against polygamy, even if the polygamy is consensual. This prejudice is codified into law and upheld by the courts. Now the question becomes, has this prejudice resulted in persecution?

I believe so.

On the other hand, the earlier point about Warren bringing all this upon himself is valid. We didn't see this kind of legal action against earlier FLDS leaders (at least not since 1953). At the very least, Warren is stupid. But the basic prejudice agains the FLDS lifestyle still exists. Where else does the term "polyg" come from? I've seen this term used even in newspapers and no one seems to mind. Polygamy is the butt of too many jokes. Polygamists seem to be the only group left immune from the new political correctness sensitivity. Maybe Big Love will help change that a bit.

mugwump said...

I fear that too often prejudice is a somewhat natural expression of fear related to that which is unknown. Societies that tend to have little or nothing to do with those outside of their own tight knit group cause those outside the group to become suspicious regarding the intent and purpose of that which is being kept secret.

Open societies proceed with activities which we as individuals may or may not choose to have part in. The point is that if we know what others are doing, or at least have a general indication that their activity is harmless to those who aren't a part of that particular activity, we tend to show more tolerance and have less reason to fear.

I think that this concept is true both without and within FLDS. This assessment is based upon nothing but common sense reasoning.

Anonymous said...

Why stop at "Big Love"?

Why not "Bachelor XXXIII: Colorado City"

or

"Queer eye for the Barlow Guy"

or

"CSI: The Furnace at Eldorado"

Anonymous said...

Does anyone seriously think a movie such as 'Big Love' will help alleviate the prejudice? I don't. I don't believe for starters that any TV program is going to portray the true state of any society. The scuttlebut is that the UAB is the source behind the script. I see it as an attempt to 'make friends with the world' by Mr. Allred. It was mentioned here the words of Christ. Well, did he mean it or not?

The LDS church went through the same publicity stunt in the 30's and 40's. The result is that now the memberhip is embarrassed of the teachings given by the early leaders of the church. This will result in the same for the UAB and any other group that supports this movie. The true followers of Christ will never be understood and accepted by the world at large until He reigns as King of all the world.

Anonymous said...

I agree, any one who makes a mockery of religion and uses it for sensationalisim, knows nothing about the teachings of Christ. I think the world system is as corrupt as it can get. I think that the movie people can not portray any thing good. I think that sensationalisim is stupid and nobody that supported the teachings of Christ would be portraying filth. And the world is at large anti-christ. Read the account of Cora hore in the book of Mormon and know that I agree with 4;14 poster. And frankly I do not want the world's ways in my life. But even to talk on this web page has taken me out into the filthy world to some degree.

the_lerker said...

fttc:
What raid are you referring to? Could you elaborate a little? FLDS prophets have warned the people that when the day came that officers would be standing at the door to shut down their meeting, the day of judgement would be at hand.

If that's what happened, the peoples faith has got to be greater than ever in their prophet.

fttc said...

I am referring to the report in the Deseret News last week. They said the FBI showed up at the Saturday work meeting with 66 subpoenas and were able to serve 5. This was three weeks ago I beleive.

Reports are that there have not been any more meetings held. Unfortunately I think the FLDS will see this as exactly what you mentioned. In the details it is not as the prophecy states as the FBI showed up after the meeting was in attendance. Little difference it will make. This and other small things have led me to wonder and ask as I have.

I have no word that the FBI is prohibiting any meetings. It is the fear of the people that is keeping them from meeting. A far cry, to me, from the prophecy you referred to.

Anonymous said...

"I'm a fig plucker and fig pluckers son.I'll pluck figs until the fig pluckings done." A little chant from Hurricane.

Anonymous said...

First of all I have read numerous articles saying the issue is abuse not polygamy. 2) If people choose to freely live the polygamy lifestyle I say fine it's their choice. Girls 15 or 16 years of age shouldn't have parents making those choices for them. The girl that forced to marry that CC pig wanted to marry someone else. I say they should have let her. But no, women aren't capable of making their own decisions. All these ppl who say they are being "presecuted " need to be quiet. If they're not they ones breaking the laws they shouldn't have anything to worry about.
Warren's in Mexico (jst a hunch). Maybe he's hiding with that Orson Black guy. Warren also has millions of dollars at his disposal to get LE in Mexico to stay quiet.

Anonymous said...

The post of Anon 6:24 is a perfect example of prejudice from misinformation. It is people who have it in them to post such as this that make the FLDS feel persecuted. If you are going to pass judgement on someone care enough to make sure your facts are correct. Express your opinion all you want. Pass judgement on facts not opinions.

onthestreet said...

You shall know the people of God by their fruits: The fruits of the body (children), of the mind (disciplined), and of the spirit (revelation, etc). The big "Mess" is part of the fruits, the discipline, the sifting of the chaff, the trial of the spirit.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Jesus Christ).

Anonymous said...

yes and of all the fruit that is in the baskit i have seen is good look around you the fruit form the world is rotten just look you!!.you can not tell me what you see is good in the world i tell you that in this place is the best ftuit in the world look!!! you only smell the rotten fruit the good fruit will not make a sound the rotten will stink dry and die you will see.i do not say this to ofend but to help you see ross get over it you and you wife your brother zeek needs to let it alone his wife made her choice so dont do it this this way the freedem is here if you want to know just go out there in to the world and see you can not do what you do here you would be shot and the rest of you get over it love it or live it alone just becase you do not understand this is the best place in the world let there be peace

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I don't see wtf I said that was prejudiced or not about the facts. I also wasn't passing any judgement ; I was just expressing my opinion. I guess you're not used to your women having voices but THIS one does! My husband answers to me!

2/04/2006 2:10 AM

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Poor man.

2/04/2006 3:05 AM

Anonymous said...

My dear lady (referring to your gender and not your etiquette), I did not say you passed judgement. Where did your opinions come from? Have you actually looked into this any deeper than what you have read in the papers? Your comments do not show any more interest than a chance to diss the 'plygs'. That is what I meant.

Anonymous said...

I guess you're not used to your women having voices but THIS one does! My husband answers to me!

"and there will be silence in the Heavens for the space of half an hour"

Which means you won't be there.

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WEBLOG ADMINISTRATOR

Anonymous said...

Would you not call it persicution if a police officer follows you to your home, and only then flips on his lights and orders you back into your vehicle. Upon doing this he asks you if you know why he has done this. After discussing this, and you going about your business, the officer then lays hands upon you and starts to get physical with you. You remove yourself from his grip tell him to report what he needs to report and then try to go about your business again. Only to find that he has a gun trained on you, in front of your family, neighbors, and friends and tells you to freeze or he will stop you. So you again obey his orders and he cuffs you, puts you in his vehicle, then unlawfully searches you vehicle, and tries to enter your home all without any kind of search warrent. Takes you to jail, you sit there, no phone call(all others there get one), no food (after being there 6 hours and everyone else has been taken care of),and also nobody has told you why you have been held and on what charges. All this happened to one of the most peacefull man I know. (persons age in question around 55-60) Makes one wonder what is in store when people like that are in what they term control.

fttc said...

Without naming names could you tell where and when this happened?

Anonymous said...

About 1 to 1-1/2 weeks ago. Hildale, UT.
Officer Matt Fischer

fttc said...

Is he one of the CC officers? Was the man apprehended perhaps not a follower of warren? If so who is the persecutor here? Looks as if maybe the 'persecuted' have turned persecutors.

Anonymous said...

Just curious if they (CC & Hildale) share the same police officers, I forgot!

Anonymous said...

I can see how some might feel they're being persecuted for their lifestyles & beliefs & I really don't trust our government in ANY way, shape, form. At least they "say" they're prosecuting him( Warren) & some of him other followers because of the abuse claims & other stuff. I really don't know what their agenda is since they can't be trusted. There's so much propaganda out there; it's sick. However if WJ is guilty of all these crimes ( which is a conclusion I can't make but many say he is) he should be punished.

Paladin for Truth said...

Getting back to the original question of this post. I don't think that any true FLDS member is being persecuted, they are where they want to be and doing what they want. Where the persecution starts is for those in the FLDS that want to think a little different or want to be done with following Warren. Those are the ones that are horribly persecuted and mostly by the faithful FLDS, the very people who will whine up a storm all day long of how in days past the Mormon church would not let them think how they wanted. God gave all men their free agency, and part of free agency is leaving a guy and his family alone. When Joseph Smith started this church, one of his beliefs was that no family member was to even be baptised without permission of the head of the house. If perhaps the FLDS would allow this GOD given right of free agency to all of their members without being so worried about a head count and the flow of money, GOD would see a need to stand up in their (FLDS) defense.

fttc said...

Well said, Paladin.

I also would like to remind that many of those who have left have not changed their beliefs. They have just not been able, in good conscience, to follow the changes warren has made.

Valiant Heart. said...

paladin for truth 02/05/06 9:05 A.M.

How true your words are. How well spoken.
When Joseph Smith taught the people he allowed them to govern themselves, that they might be judged according to their own works. There wasn't the fear we are hearing about that some people feel now.
To do nothing but jump to another man's command makes one little more than a puppet.

Anonymous said...

The line between justice and persicution is often percieved as a narrow one. When the penalty out weighs the benefit or pleasure obtained in the offence, then the crime most often ceases or declines. Then when civil courts have given protection orders, served warrants or otherwise have given informed directions, it is between the first order or warning and the second that contempt is recognized.

If persecution and pressure are one in the same, then its what ever pressure is needed after a second, third, forth and so on court order to gain compliance of the law. Since Warren has placed himself above the law, the free agency of those who conspire to break the law with him, have based on ideology chosen to violate the law and infringe on the civil rights of others. Many of the victims now, different from those in the Short Creek raid of 1953, are the apostate's who have rebelled to a class system of oppression.

SB 146 authored by Utah Senator Ron Allen restricted the illegal union of underage minors in Utah. This was signed into law April 30th of 2001 by then Governor Leavitt. Warren between the existance of the ratified legislation and the governor signing, married off Ruby Jessop on April 23rd of 2001 knowing the intent of the law. For those capable of the truth, he has violated this law many times since.

Between knowing the law and violating it more than once, more than twise, there becomes an attitude of contempt for the law and the rules of society. If it takes the added pressure of enforcing laws, sometimes ignored by law enforcement, but on the books, then so be it! On March 3rd of 2005 both Attorney Generals in a Townhall meeting made it clear polygamy in of itself was not a crime they wished to pursue. However, this said, they did in detail explain that they could prosecute someone for polygamy if they had committed other offenses and as such the states would bundle or combine offenses to build a case. It has been the pattern of abuse and a pattern of repeated crimes, that has brought us here.

Be honest in front of those here and under the eyes of what ever god you believe in and tell all here, how many more underage unions occured since 4-30-01. Had Warren not known the law or only committed the offense once since, then maybe an oversight! From 5 or 10 to dozens, well you see the point! Is this really persecution or is it criminals who believe religion exempts them from the laws of the land. If these are the end days and Warren rots in jail for 20 years, those complicit will merely redefine a prophesy to explain away another several decades. One can not reason what is fair, with habitual criminals that simply disagree that they are in violation of the law. Of course they think they are being persecuted.

CGIA Tracker

fttc said...

You mentioned SB 146. No one can deny that this law was passed specifically targeting the polygamous groups in Utah. It addressed a problem that was occurring and gave LE and the judicial system the means to handle this problem. Such is the reason for many other laws on the books.

I will not say it is a bad law particularly. In fact if the FLDS had complied, as the leadership prior to the time of its passing had declared they would, it would not be an issue now. There was no fundamental principle of the gospel that would have been violated.

This does not change the fact that it did target the polygamous groups. This fact alone makes it easy for warren to twist what is happening into religious persecution. As one poster stated above there have been some underage girls married perhaps against their will. Most have not. The FLDS members know this. They already see that law (SB 146) as a law against their religion and as such unconstitutional. Then they see girls that honestly want to be married to men much older than themselves. As repulsive as this may be to those not brought up as fundamentalists it is their choice. What are the members supposed to think and feel?

Now before I am burned at the stake for what I said above; I have no problem with the law against underage marriages. I see only advantages for a girl to wait until she is mature to make a decision which she will live with the rest of her life (hopefully). Many think this law will prevent an 18 year old girl from marrying a 45-50 year old man. I don't know if it will. This is part of the culture of the fundamentalist community. LE has already stated it is not trying to eliminate the culture. Does society at large want this as the result? If so the FLDS has good reason for feeling persecuted.

warren needs to be stopped. Not so much for the forced underage marriages as tragic as they may be. He needs to be stopped because he is destroying the moral and social fabric of a community. In my opinion he should be held more accountable for this than any other crime he is committing. This will have the longest lasting and more widespread affect than any other he has committed.

You have justified the use of 'pressure' on those following warren by incriminating them along with him. I understand totally your point and agree to the extent that they are knowledgeable of his crimes. It sounds fantastic I know but there are those who really are so blind they do not see him doing any wrong. I know this does not justify him or them, but does it justify taking away the means of sustenance for them and their families in the way of taking away their work? (closing down businesses) This is what I meant above by saying these are fellow humans and citizens. This course will be seen by most FLDS as more persecution and they will band together tighter than ever behind their 'prophet'.

It would be far more advantageous to persue warren for the crimes against his nephew, which I think him capable of. He should be made to sit in court and answer to the questions of whether he is guilty or not. Putting him in a position where he has to face those he has made victims is the surest way of convincing his followers of what he really is. Nothing exposed the Wizard of Oz like removing the curtain. All seemed so magical until the mechanisms for control were seen out in the open. If warren is not exposed in the process of apprehending him there are many more 'warrens' waiting in the wings to take his place.

Sorry about the lengthy discourse and I know I wandered off subject slightly. I had to say it.

Anonymous said...

Well, Fttc thank you for your comments. They are very insightful.

As for the law? Polgyamy has been against the law since John Taylor day. Your relatives made a delibate decision to practice plural marriage and break that law. A delibate decision to break the law of the land, because of a revelation given to a man who you deam to be a prophet.

Utah citizens should of fought for their beliefs long a go and made plural marriage legal. The FLDS should of made plural marriage legal in their part of Arizona, like prostition is legal and regulated by the state of Nevada.

As I see things and I might be wrong the FLDS and Warren's group especially now only follow the law of the land, when it suits them. Some have gotten so comfortable in breaking this law of the land they have no qualms breaking others.

Jesus said Render unto Casear what is Casear. God puts governments in place and expects their laws to be followed even by the elect.

As to weather polygamy itself is wrong that need to be debated in a court of law and voted upon by the people, just like abortion and gay rights.

But for now it is illegal, just like murder, adultry and rape of children and adults.

Life is not fair. That includes me. But I follow the laws of the land and try to change those I disagree by getting involved in the poltical process.

The teaching of plural marriage because of religious beliefs is a slippery slope. I can just imagine what a laws a Muslim would consider ignoring in our country. The comparison is harsh, but true.

Jesus said to "Love One Another" this is greatest commandment.

I hold no ill feeling for the FLDS. They have been taught since birth this teaching of Plural Marriage and to put up with the sacrifices to attain it, including harboring the feeling of being persecuted.

But should we look the other way. No.

But you said you understand totally and agree that those following Warren are knowledgeable of his crimes.

These are their crimes also.

The men and women following Warren in fear or faith are also helping in the moral breakdown of their communtiy. I don't seen anyone there with a Pure Heart? Do you?

But Warren and his intimate group are only for themselves and history will prove this out.

Anonymouse

fttc said...

You misunderstood me. I said I agree with incriminating warren's followers as far as they were aware of his crimes. Some of them are really so blind they do not see the crimes. They are really so ignorant they do not know.

As far as polygamy being against the law we can argue this point far and wide. Anyone who will study the history of that law being passed will have to acknowlede it was a prejudicial law. Unlike the law against the underage marriages their were no victims. It was promoted and lobbied by the religionists of the day because they disliked the Mormons. Throughout the nation there are laws in the statutes that have become antiquated. Some have laws against kissing in public. Technically a person could be arrested and fined for so doing. The laws against polygamy in today's society are apparently seen as such by many if not by most. It seems a prevalent attitude on this blog anyway that people don't care what consenting adults do in a marriage relation.

You are right that my parents and grandparents made a choice to live what they termed as their religion at the risk of being prosecuted for it. They knew the risks and some of them were incarcerated and fined according to the law. This law meant more to them than life itself. Christ said to render unto Ceasar the things which are Ceasar's. Did he bow down the edicts of the law before his death? He answered them nothing. I don't think for a moment Christ was a hypocrite. So did he actually mean to obey every law? Did Daniel and the three Hebrews?
Did Abraham?

I remember the point that Furnace made earlier about the many inmates that think they are incarcerated because of government persecution. I am not advocating anarchy either.

There are many laws of the land that do not violate in any way the principles of fundamental Mormon doctrine that the FLDS do not comply with. I concede that point. I see your point also that the breaking of the law with polygamy may have been the root of this problem. If one peruses the teachings of the men living in my grandparents day they cannot find where breaking these laws was advocated. The children did not listen to the teachings of their parents.

Anonymous said...

I think if you have read the FLDS text, you would have to agree that whether authored by Warren or Rulon, they have stated polygamy is against the law and in this time its not being enforced. Clearly in the teachings and authored by the prophet, they know what they are doing is illegal. In the middle east some religions have "honor killings", you raped or dated my sister, so I am justified in killing your sister, my sister or a number of combinations to revenge my religious beliefs. The country of Turkey has done well to seperate church and state, but deals with such issues daily. Religion can not dictate state policies, nor meter out punishmernt based on one religious faction as rivals to another.

The parents whom ignore the legal age of consent are pimps prostituting their daughters for gain. Not always financial gain, but in this case status within a priesthood council (the boys or mens club). Salvation is metered and controlled by the cooperation of exchange, that exchange being your daughters. Slave's raised to be slaves, accept that fate, but in a goverment of laws, with checks and balances, under age, will always be under age! To the parents, they should of been charged with child abandonment, child endagerment, along with exploitation of a minor. Ignoring these laws for so long, has given many an idea that these laws no longer apply to them.

As for the FLDS being or feeling persecuted, I have seen a list of nearly 300 such groups of which 50 or more exist or existed at one time in Utah. Most are in violation of several laws and thanks to the AUB, FLDS and Kingstons, all are being watched carefully on the radar. Its nice to identify yourself as special and gods chosen, but each of 290 something groups had there own leader "THE ONE MIGHTY AND STRONG". The FLDS are merely one of over 100 groups that still exist, beyond earlier research that attempted to inventory such groups.

Rapist and killers feel persecuted as well, though few have generated as much doctrine in text as the FLDS. Even the much talked about audio's by Warren confirm in his own words that he and who follow him are breaking the law. If you were the Kingston's, Allred's, Harmston's, Jamaican Posse, Rolling Sixties, Shoreline Crips or any other faction, blatantly stating you intended to ignore the law, you would be suspect and watched. If this is persuction then you feel the same as hundreds of street gangs and illegal enterprises whom believe laws of the U.S. do not apply to them.

In debating this subject, its easy to assume most here have not read the FLDS text, nor are privy to nearly a dozen Arizona Grand Jury Investigations. The straight up and cold reality is the crimes of this region are numerous and extend far beyond polygamy or child brides. To say that LE should consentrate on the sodomy charges alone, ignores financial fraud and a whole series of other concerns that are not reflected here.

Inviting scrutny is what has caused interest in this practise. Last week the Holm custody case in Rigby Idaho, placed a focus on William or Bill Roundy. The USDA grants and what they were for became of interest. Roundy got $467,000. of federal funds between 1995-2004 and it caused a review of hundreds of other applications that have not earned the LE scrutny they deserve.

Hildale and Colorado City exist today because of government grants and programs the FLDS, and or KINGSTONS, AUB as well and others have discovered how to play, like a fiddle. On one hand your leader in text and audio confirms he is violating the law, then he condone's working the system to "bleed the beast" to support that system he accepts as illegal. Who here are the fools and the ones being persecuted? Its the taxpayers that are funding a way of life that violates dozens of laws.

Let's talk about real numbers and whom is paying for the way of life that is being debated now. Thomas Green snatched well over a million dollars in living his nomad existance, but that was chump change when you begin to add up the monies collected from multi government agencies. Remember the days of poverty back in Charles Zitting's time, well without bleeding the beast that would be the lifestyle today.

Your airport was 6 million federal dollars and exactly who uses it and yet taxpayers built it!

People here don't know the extent of the crimes, nor is the FLDS the only group of concern. Certainly the other groups have the FLDS and Kingstons to thank for their recent exposure. With BIG LOVE coming, I suspect the AUB will join the ranks of groups generating unwanted media coverage, but more power to them!

CGIA Tracker

Anonymous said...

I'm not familiar with the William Roundy/Holm custody case in Idaho. Could someone give an update or post a reference?

Anonymous said...

Well, fttc I guess we can disagree on the plural marriage. Whether it is a LAW OF GOD.

Mormons believe my Bible is full of flaws. I disagree.


Did Jesus bow down the edicts of the law before his death?

The Jewish law killed him. The crowd asked for the release of the murderer Barabas, Jesus was killed by a LAW OF THE JEWS.

He answered them nothing. You are right. The crowd demanded the release of a criminal for a man who was innocent. So he said nothing. Jesus was through talking.

The Jews begged Abraham for LAW and God gave them the LAW. So many Laws it is impossible to keep them all and find salvation.

Kinda like Warren and his LAWS. My problem is Warren doesn't turn the other cheek for the believers. He sends them out the door without any explainations other than to try and figure out what sin they did.

Would you go back if Warren said you could?

You said "Some of them are really so blind they do not see the crimes. They are really so ignorant they do not know."

I find that very hard to believe. There are some very slick operators in the FLDS community and you will see it by and by.

Anonymouse

fttc said...

Anonymouse

I left by choice. warren has nothing I want. He has changed or given up all I hope for.

My point with the law was that we have in the scriptures cases where the law of the land (yes the law of the Jews was the law of the land at the time. They were allowed to live their law under the domain of the Romans) was violated in preference to the law of the Lord.

And for CGIA: Yes, I understand the difference between state and religion.

Anonymous said...

The Roundy case, is the continued evolution of the Lenore Holm situation. It has become a custody case between Milton & Lenore. I don't believe Lenore would get full custody, though a foster home is what is part of the consideration. The courts in Arizona ordered the two to divorce and durring that period or building up to it, the children were sent to Milton's inlaws in Idaho.

In the dust of the divorce, Lenore has been restricted from visitation via intimidation. The case has turned into one of custody, where by William Roundy is raising the children in his home. Milton's mother is one of Roundy's wives as is Lenore's Aunt or her mothers sister. The case will be heard Feb. the 13th in Rigby Idaho.

One might wonder who is paying Milton's lawyer, but in the end it is William who is fighting for control. The case out of the blue, put several Idaho independents on the radar screen. Revelations as it were, to the amounts of federal grants came from simple inquiries and have mushroomed into an area of interest for certain agencies.
Public debates such as occur here, are what invites scrutny or persecution as some prefer to call it. In the closet few took notice, but going public has stimulated interest.

NWGIA Tracker
http://www.nw-gia.org/

Anonymous said...

If one goes into the archives of this blog to the Milton and Lenore thread you will find more details on this.

The information posted here has much misinformation in it. Roundys are not Milton's inlaws. Milton took the children to Idaho and dumped them on his mother. She could not handle them so she dumped them on William. He is not fighting for any control. The children had apparently been severely neglected before they came to Idaho, so William called the probate officers in charge of Lenore and told them he would only allow the children to leave if they would take responsibility for them. They informed him they felt he was taking good care of them and recommended not letting them go. William has only verbal custody of the children from their father. If the parents had decided to take them they could have. Fortunately for the children they have left them here.

As is stated this is all in the court's hands now. William is not involved. It is strictly between Lenore and Milton. There are those who are trying to stir up trouble for William for who knows why. He is not fighting for control of anyone.

If the courts rule that the children be put into a foster home that is where they will end up. It would be tragic for them to be put into that situation when they have relatives who are willing to take care of them.

Anonymous said...

Well we could debate what is occuring, Robert Crowley Jr. is Milton's attorney and Carolyn DeGroff is Lenore's or has been.

What outsiders tend to keep in mind is the language and actions of various organized groups. From Winton's site "Share The Light", an Associated Press story and a cassette that was smuggled out of the FLDS LeRoy Johnson meeting hall, we have seen a history of extreme's. With both Vanessa Rohbock and Flora Jessop the edict of the Saints to "Pray Night and Day" for the distruction of these women and others, places a concern on who is raising children and what they are being taught.

If you like I can "cut and paste" the story as it appeared in Associated Press after the Utah Attorney General was interviewed regarding this subject or we can rely on Winston's newsletter. In either event praying for the death of another is the type of extreme that concerns many.

As for Roundy's wives shall I name them? If you are so concerned about William's welfare, maybe you should attend the court hearing?

Any one who buys into praying for the deaths of others might just deserve a minimal amount of persecution. There are hundreds of extremist groups with way out doctrines, but debating with those who believe, is like talking to a wall. Would you deny that Warren stated to pray for the destruction of those above? I'd love to provide the AG's quotes.

Anonymous said...

There is always an interest in fringe groups that see themselves as the Saints, preaching the pure seed doctrine, holding a strong dislike for government and its intervention. Doctrines of White Supremist, a theology that preaches a need to be armed, a need for a local and controlled militia that one day may have to take on its own government, sound familiar? Hundreds of such little groups think like this. On one hand the religion preaches a non violent message and yet praying for the distruction of others is also a componernt of the same religion. Then there is the East Coast/West Coast prophesy which Warren preached where the streets of Colorado City would flow red with blood, of course that was before he knew he would be in Texas instead.

Here is another splinter that mixed the "work" or polygamy with its right wing agenda;

December 12, 1997
A federal grand jury in Arkansas indicts three men on racketeering charges for plotting to overthrow the government and create a whites-only Aryan People's Republic, which they intend to grow through polygamy. Chevie Kehoe, Daniel Lee and Faron Lovelace are accused of crimes in six states, including murder, kidnapping, robbery and conspiracy. Kehoe and Lee will also face state charges of murdering an Arkansas family, including an 8-year-old girl, in 1996. Kehoe ultimately receives a life sentence on that charge, while Lee is sentenced to death. Lovelace is sentenced to death for the murder of a suspected informant, although in early 2005 he will be up for resentencing because of court rulings. Kehoe's brother, Cheyne, is convicted of attempted murder during a February 1997 Ohio shootout with police and sentenced to 24 years in prison, despite his key role in helping authorities find his fugitive brother in Utah in June 1997 after the shootout. Cheyne went to the authorities after Chevie began talking about murdering their parents and showing sexual interest in Cheyne's wife.

THERE ARE DOZENS OF SUCH ACCOUNTS FROM THOSE WHO WERE JUST DOING GODS WORK. I WOULD LOVE TO DEBATE THIS WITH FACTS, BUT IF ONE IS NOT CENTERED IN REALITY, THEN FACTS MEAN NOTHING!

Anonymous said...

From The New Times;

"Warren wanted Vanessa blood-atoned," says Ron Barton, a criminal investigator in Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff's office.

What Jeffs wants, he usually gets.

The 48-year-old recluse dictates life in the isolated communities of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah, along the artificial boundary between the two states, where more than 6,000 members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS) believe that men must have at least three wives to reach heaven's highest echelon.

To violate a command by Jeffs -- seen by devotees as God's earthly representative and the ultimate authority on assignments into polygamous marriages -- is an unpardonable transgression that can lead to severe punishment.

Jeffs, according to Barton and others familiar with the matter, ordered Vanessa's father to retrieve her from Canada, where she had found safe haven with Jeffs' rival, fundamentalist Mormon polygamist leader Winston Blackmore.

Vanessa refused to go back with her father, Ron Rohbock, who at the time was one of Jeffs' bodyguards. Rohbock made several trips to Canada to pick up his daughter, but he could not persuade the girl to go back to Colorado City.

On one of the trips, Rohbock told Blackmore that Jeffs had decreed that there was nothing left for Vanessa to do but return home and face the ultimate punishment, death, according to the Utah AG's Office.

In an interview with Utah investigators, Blackmore said he and the girl's father had been instructed by Jeffs to pray day and night for Vanessa's destruction.

Anonymous said...

You are so misinformed about the facts of the matter that I won't even try to reason with you. You have the information you have and are more than happy to believe you know the rest by interpolation. Good luck!

mugwump said...

It appears as if the definition of 'reality' is dependent entirely upon whether the point of observation is contained within a controlled environment or is privledged to exposure to knowledge and an understanding of the workings of all societies within the world.

Individuals who are exposed to the 'whole' are curious about the activities of those within the controlled environment. Those who are within that closed environment have been convinced by their thought police that they, and they alone are correct in all presumptions. In effect their lives are as controlled as have been the lives of all who live in a totalarian state. The degree of understanding of the workings of society are dictated by the autocratic leader and are unquestioned or challenged by those who have allowed themselves to be duped into believing their leader's word is without error and therefore undisputable.

Mutual exchange of information and debate toward the common good is unacceptable. These people have become virtual automons and thus are without the ability to function independently.

mugwump said...

should be: who live in a totalitarian state.

Anonymous said...

Rather than simply saying people here are misinformed, how about offering the truth as you know it and I am sure many here can verify whether the info is accurate.

So, how many wives does William Roundy have and what are there names and were they from the "creek"? Is Milton's mother one of Bill's wives? You have indicated this is family, but have been sketchy on the how of it.

Has Warren ever stated to the faithful, to pray for the distruction of any one, either inside or outside of the religion?

Did a Arizona court judge order Lenore and Milton to obtain a divorce and if so why? This should be public or court record and I am sure it was for cause, what was the circumstance?

2/06/2006 5:33 PM said;
Milton took the children to Idaho and dumped them on his mother. She could not handle them so she dumped them on William. (this is the fuzzy part, if William is family as indicated, then Milton's mother must be related?)

So are you saying Lenore or Milton was to blame, just one of them or both of them? If Milton dropped them off, was this because he had to return to work? Did he continue working in Southern Utah or did he then move to Idaho and when did that happen? If as you say, this is Milton fighting for custody, what has changed where Milton can now care for these children? Will they remain in William Roundy's home, while Milton works in Southern Utah or is he now doing construction in Southern Idaho? If Milton continues to work in Southern Utah and the mother is also in Southern Utah, wouldn't visitation rights consideration lend itself to a foster home in that region, that over Idaho which is nearly 500 miles away?

Usually such cases as this have child support payments as a consideration and the motives to retain custody can include that interest. If Milton has been a resident of Idaho only a few weeks and has pay stubs that are reflected of jobs in Southern Utah, then custody might be suspect. What I see stated above is this Roundy guy is out of the goodness of his heart raising 6 or 7 kids, but inspite of him raising them, its really Milton the biological father who is fighting to keep them with Bill Roundy who you state may or may not be related to Milton or Lenore?

2/06/2006 5:33 PM also stated;
It would be tragic for them to be put into that situation when they have relatives who are willing to take care of them. (It would also be tragic to make a destitute mother without income travel 500 miles to visit her kids)

Explain to all of us here how William is related to Milton or Lenore, above you implied that Mr. Roundy is a relative!

2/06/2006 11:41 PM post says;
You are so misinformed about the facts of the matter that I won't even try to reason with you.

Thats a cop out, its like saying "i'm taking my ball and going home". If the information is not accurate explain the details and try to answer a question without another question. You're not fooling any one when you refuse to be more detailed or when you retreat to "well, you are misinformed". Many here may be misinformed, but that is do to secretcy, we are unable to process these debates with one statement, which is later defended by "your wrong", you are "misinformed" or another phrase used to side step a simple question.

If (post 2/06/2006 12:40 PM) is wrong, then counter it, him or her, with something that we can research and verify. You have to offer facts and data to be credible and so far the postings indicate that Roundy is family from both sides of the isle. If he's related by marriage, then explain how and let us in on this debate that apparently only two here are aware of.
NYLFT

Anonymous said...

As stated by the CGIA Tracker

2/06/2006 12:40 PM

The parents whom ignore the legal age of consent are pimps prostituting their daughters for gain. Not always financial gain, but in this case status within a priesthood council (the boys or mens club). Salvation is metered and controlled by the cooperation of exchange, that exchange being your daughters. Slave's raised to be slaves, accept that fate,

Here on the blog I have heard the defenders of the faith speak of the cultural history worldwide of polygamy, to justify its right to exist today. The national news has been covering issues of polygamy around the world and without question, it is a civil rights issue in many countries today. Defending a practise based on a out of date culture that was more abusive than the one before us now, is hardly a legal justification. Below is the reality of many young girls and in such closed societies here or there, the families by property or good religious standing gain and benefit by this Slave Trade.

February 7, 2006
Posted to the web February 7, 2006

Ziggy Kondwani Magombo
Lilongwe

Kupimbira is a custom where young girls are married off (by force) to often older, rich men in settlement of debts or for financial gain. The traditional custom that has been in practice for aeons is believed to still be evident in Wiriro area, Group V/Headman Mwenichilanga, T/A Kyungu, in the Karonga district.

Masozi (not real name) was married off in 2001 at the age of ten. Her parents forced her to marry a seventy-year old rich widower for six head of cattle. The parents wanted part of the herd to pay for the bride price (lobola) for Masozi's older brother who had found a wife.

There was nothing the little girl could do and she had no choice in the matter but to comply with her parent's arrangement.

The child bride, in terrible fear, unwillingly bade farewell to her fellow standard five pupils at Wiriro Primary School. She was totally ignorant about what lay ahead for her. The young, immature and innocent girl walked into the callous hands and bed of the old man.

In the name of culture, respect for the authority of parents and for the sake of her brother's marriage, Masozi, a scared little girl had to confront a situation befitting a woman twice her age. She had to become the wife to a man old enough be her grandfather.

Concerned with the practice, Ndanga Youth Group in Karonga alerted the Malawi Human Rights Commission (MHRC) who instigated an investigation into the practice. They have since compiled a full report of their findings. "The tradition is like a secret cult and as such, not many people are free to talk about it or tell the truth about the existence of the practice," explains the MHRC report. It adds that despite this, some people, mainly those who see the practice as evil feel free to talk about the practice.

Anonymous said...

How interested are you really in knowing the truth? In a post above I stated that if you would go back to the thread in the archives on Milton and Lenore you would find more details. Your questions are almost all answered there. The relationships, the cause for divorce orders, conditions of Mitlton and Lenore in caring for their children. It's all there.

Do you want to understand or do you want to browbeat? I made statements in response to accusations against William Roundy. The response was a bunch of gobbledy-gook about warren's teachings and program. William was thrown out by warrren because he wouldn't go along with his program. He doesn't support any of the teachings of warren that were mentioned. My response was directed to this person. They know very little if any about the person they have chosen to slander. They have gathered a few facts and extrapolated the rest.

Anonymous said...

If you are really interested it is in the November 2005 archive.

fttc said...

What were the government grants given to Roundy for? I understand he runs a ranch/dairy of sorts. Are these farm subsidies or welfare?

Anonymous said...

Just wondering, is Sam Roudy Sr. still alive? Has he been booted ?

Anonymous said...

Sam is in very ill health as well as his first wife. They are still ardent supporters of warren at least by actions.

Anonymous said...

"When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?"

Anonymous said...

A very sad story. Self-destruction seems imminent.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635182923,00.html

ATAR_i said...

3:02 - you made me giggle.

fttc said...

Atar

Count on you to lighten things up! Good to hear from you again. You haven't been voicing much lately. Been missing your voice of balance.

ATAR_i said...

I see the difference as being the thought vs. the action.

Prejudice: (Noun) a preconceived judgment or opinion before sufficient knowledge

Persecute: (Verb) to cause to suffer because of a belief (does not indicate wether it is their belief or yours)

I think we can all agree that there are those whom have truly been persecuted; starved, burnt at the stake, hung, cremated, tortured for the color of their skin, their nationality, their religion etc.

While I have no doubt that there are pre-conceived notions (prejudice) - it flows both in and out of the polygamous community in equal doses. Does the outside world have more predice towards them, or do they have more prejudice towards the outside world - it's a good question.

As far as persecuting - I don't believe that there have been actions that could rise to the level of being persecuted for a belief.

Perhaps the spotlight has caused authorities to now uphold the laws of the United States of America in a way they have never done before (lack of awareness, avoidance or both), and perhaps the spotlight shines so brightly as to shed light on not just the larger but the smaller infractions and injustices.

I don't doubt that prejudice has entered in on both sides, muddying the water, but I couln't not call the citizens persecuted.

When I see some beheadings, starvation hangings, bamboo the nails and dipped in water, burning at the stake, or swarms of men with torches and pitchforks - I'll bite (give me even one of those things).

Right now the goverment clothes, feeds, protects (and of course expects them to obey the laws). Ordinary citizens perhaps harbor prejudice - but please for the sake of every slave, jew, and persecuted groups in history....don't throw around that word so lightly

In fact, I would go even farther and state that damage to that polygamous community - the booting of husbands, fathers, adolescent males, reassignment of wives, forced marriage of adolescents, theft of homes, property, denial of education that the sect has done to itself rises to a level for exceeding any thought, feeling or action from anyone on the outside.

Is that light enough? hehehe

fttc said...

Maybe I am glad you have not been posting. You put it all in a nutshell and would have ended the post as it began.

Using the word persecute too lightly? That's an angle I hadn't thought of. The FLDS used the word apostate among themselves often and lightly until anyone who did not agree with them was an apostate. In short, they redefined the word apostate until they justified themselves in casting out those you just mentioned. They are now redefining the word presecute and who knows where it will lead?

Anonymous said...

I would agree with poster atar_I, that most of the persecution is self generated with in FLDS, by it's leadership. If Warren Jeffs had defended himself in the civil lawsuits he might have had a chance winning cases with good lawyers, leaving control of UEP in FLDS hands. If Jeffs had peacefully turned himself in a charges brought by state officals, he would now be out on bail, and with his followers testifying a good chance of being found not guilty. Or in others words life would have went on as before Warren Jeffs in Short Creek.

BUT Warren Jeffs didn't do that, he wasted FLDS funds on YFZ, setup a possible confrontation with LE by drawing attention to himself, he seems to be doing everything he can to force confrontation with gov't. In the end the men, women, children of the FLDS become the victims of Warren Jeffs as he intends IMO to take them down with himself. The worst persecutor of the FLDS is Warren Jeffs himself.

Anonymous said...

?? LE IMO whats this?

Anonymous said...

LE-Law Enforcement
IMO-In My Opinion

Welcome to blogging!

Anonymous said...

Are there a lot of postings from people in shortcreek?

Anonymous said...

Do you really think he's trying to force a standoff? Idk.

Anonymous said...

Do you really think he's trying to force a standoff? Idk.

IMO Yes, Jeffs is trying to force confrontation, as pointed out in anon post 2/12/2006 3:28 PM.

Jeffs as pointed out would have had a good chance of beating the charges against him if he had just peaceful turned himself in. He had the resources to obtain best legal defense team available, and even if convicted would most likeley have gotten probation & fine if convicted. Instead resources in millions of dollars are spent on YFZ.

By his (Warren Jeffs) behavior running from law, ignoring court orders etc. he draws attention from LE getting FBI involved.

IMO Jeffs wants to be a martyer, to die at hands of gov't like David Koresh at Waco, Texas, another would be polgamous prophet who thought he would lead God's army to destory Babylon.

We all saw how David Koresh's and his followers ended up. This is why Jeffs choose to come to Texas and build his "temple of doom" compound known as YFZ.

Jeffs claims to be a Mormon prophet, but if he really was, he would care for his followers as Joseph Smith did. Joseph Smith, founder of LDS Mormon church known as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, would always turn himself in to authorities when faced with criminal charges, he wouldn't put his followers at risk by forcing them to hide him and bring legal action aginst his followers. Joseph Smith cared enough about his followers to put himself on the line, to protect his church membership. Since Jeffs claims to believe in Book of Mormon, he should read the part that refers to himself 3 Nephi 14 vrs 15 and 23.

IMO Jeffs is to yelllow to turn himself in, to protect his followers, IMO a complete coward.

Faithful Woman said...

I just wanted to put in a note about a previous post about praying for the death of certain people and how most of the FLDS people could do this in good concience.

I personally could not bring myself to say the words but could barely do a qualifier in praying that "the propeht's prayers be answered". In this way I figured I would be lending power to the right authority and had hope that since the actual words of praying for deaths had not come from the mouth of Rulon Jeffs, the current prophet, that he would not use this power in this way.

Now I don't have to worry about that any more.

fttc said...

I had the same problem with the fasting and praying for the courts to decide in our favor. I knew the truth about why we were in court and it didn't have anything to do with the Lord's work. It is so difficult to have faith in doing something you know is wrong. Those in the FLDS will now know why they have failed. It was because of my lack of faith. If only I would have believed (smiley).

onthestreet said...

FTTC: Or is the great difficulty in HAVING faith in doing something that the world brands wrong, while God has decreed against the world, and commanded saints only to "Come out of her, and be not partakers of her sins"? See my girl, who is it that failed because of your lack of faith. Your pride or ego is your first obstacle.

onthestreet said...

"FAITHFUL" Woman (2/14/2006 4:40 PM):

Everyone with any honesty or credibility at all know that the FLDS have only prayed for the world, for the salvation of all of God's children. This is fundamental to the Fundamentalist Church, and nearly every church service included a rendition of the "Nephite Lamentation", lamenting the trouble that was soon to come upon God's children, the terrorism that was soon to come, and the final mark or burdon of the Beast, and Armageddon itself.

You have to be honest in order to be believed, unless the whole world is deceived by such lies. "And the dragon will deceive the whole world (Rev. 12:9).

Anonymous said...

Do you think that WJ is being hunted any more severly than any other person on the FBI most wanted list? Time for a reality check.

Hey, does anybody out there think for themselves? Saying that Jeffs righteousness is resulting in FLDS persection is akin to saying Hitler's righteousness brought about the defeat of the Nazi War Machine.

Nazi = National Socialist Party, Germany. Led by Adolph Hitler 1933-1945 (Germany is in Europe, that's on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, a huge body of water which is located about 2000 miles east of Colorado City/Hildale) When the Nazis came to power they began a progrom to exterminate all people of Jewish ancestry and enslave all races not thought to be Ayran. (White supremeists) When Germany, led by the Nazis and their Leader Adolph Hitler lost the war (1939-1945) in Europe (called World War II (2) by most history teachers), Hitler committed suicide while hiding in his underground bomb shelter located in downtown Berlin, Germany (the capitol city of Germany, Europe) (on the eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean which is a huge body of water located about 2000 miles east of Colorado City/Hildale.) Hitler committed suicide on April 30, 1945.

Hint = believe it or not there are about two (4) billion people who live on this planet (called Earth)the Sun (that bright light up in the sky during daytime) is about 93 Million miles from the earth. The moon, which glows at night and can sometimes be seen during daylight hours, is about 239,000 miles from the earth. In 1968 the United States of America sent three men riding in a capsule, on the end of a rocket, for the purpose of attempting to walk on the moon. They did, they took pictures and they came home and brought some rocks with them. There are some samples of these rocks from the Moon located in the Air & Space Museum (Smithsonian Institute) in Washington D.C., the capitol city of the United States of America. Utah and Arizona are two of fifty of those states. All three of the space travelers arrived back on Earth in good health.

The purpose of this little history lesson is to attempt to teach that the edges of the world do not begin or end at the edges of the FLDS community.

onthestreet said...

Like I said:

Everyone with any honesty or credibility at all know that the FLDS have only prayed for the world, for the salvation of all of God's children. This is fundamental to the Fundamentalist Church, and nearly every church service included a rendition of the "Nephite Lamentation", lamenting the trouble that was soon to come upon God's children, the terrorism that was soon to come, and the final mark or burdon of the Beast, and Armageddon itself.

You have to be honest in order to be believed, unless the whole world is deceived by such lies. "And the dragon will deceive the whole world (Rev. 12:9).

someone who cares said...

Thank You Thank You Thank you to
anon 7:39

That was very well put. It is about time that someone told them that. I think that might be the most education that you will be able to cram into them, though. In case you haven't noticed, they don't really believe that anything happens anywhere else on earth.

Anonymous said...

2(40 billion? Last I looked over the horizon from my front porch in CC it was approaching 7 billion. You should get out more!

Anonymous said...

Typo! should have read 2(4)

Faithful Woman said...

Street

You must have come from Salt Lake, that is the only place the "Nephite Lamentation" was played every church service.

and No, the FLDS have not only prayed for the world and the salvation of all of God's children, unless you count all of God's children like wj does: your neighbor is "your neighbor in the gospel". Yes, I heard him say that.

Anonymous said...

Salt Lake, on the street, Steven Steed. Almost rhymes.

ATAR_i said...

But does it mean anything?

Tell me about Steven Steed?

ATAR_i said...

I remember seeing a story about Roy Steed, Ernie Jessop, Alan Steed and David Allred being representatives of the YFZ - are they still in the thick of things at YFZ?

Anonymous said...

ernie and allen have been kicked

Anonymous said...

Did ernest and allen get kicked because of adultery or because they question the authority of Warren?

furnace said...

Before I left and people would talk to me, the only thing anyone would tell me about Uncle Allen was he insisted on doing things his way instead of the prophet's way. I can interpret that however I want, such as Allen wanted to be honest at YFZ instead of dishonest, etc.

Anonymous said...

Thank you furnace. That's what I thought about Allen.

But, what of Ernest. I heard he hated apostates and was one true follower. What happen to him?

ATAR_i said...

These fellows that have been kicked - where are they? Do they have the support of their families? Did they just vanish? If so - where do you think they vanished to?

Anonymous said...

atari they are in Mesquite last heard. Repenting from a distance.

ATAR_i said...

Which state is mesquite in?

Anonymous said...

Mequite,NV

ATAR_i said...

Why are they in Nevada? Is there something in Mesquite?

onthestreet said...

Faithful Woman said...
Street
You must have come from Salt Lake, that is the only place the "Nephite Lamentation" was played every church service.

and No, the FLDS have not only prayed for the world and the salvation of all of God's children, unless you count all of God's children like wj does: your neighbor is "your neighbor in the gospel". Yes, I heard him say that. 2/18/2006 12:02 AM
___________________________________

STREET'S Reply: There you have it. So now, everyone knows even with the confession of his enemies, that the Prophet prays and laments for the world.

As for "Your neighbor is your neighbor in the godspel. Yes, I heard him say that": You heard Jesus Christ say the same thing. So you hear the truth from the Prophet Warren Jeffs:

Luke 10:25:
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?


36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

The prophet shows mercy to the world by continuing to hope for those who will, and to help them. No man will be forced.

Anonymous said...

But street, why should anyone believe anything you have to say concerning Jesus? You have denied him and blasphemed his Holy Name.

It's recorded in the archives of this blog.

onthestreet said...

Where? When? "Recorded in the Archives??? Is that the best reference you can give people to "prove" your point? The question is, "Why should anyone believe YOU," if that's the best evidence you can offer people, in helping them to understand something.

ATAR_i said...

OTS - where have you been?

onthestreet said...

Atar: See, we know how to mind our business. That is where I've been.

ATAR_i said...

Who is we?

You refer to yourself in both the plural and singular.

Is the 'we' your other voices, or separate personalities?

onthestreet said...

US.

ATAR_i said...

Do you have different names for your personalities, or do you just hear voices?

onthestreet said...

From alot of your posts, you definately have some loose wires. You POOR LADY. See an electrician. I'm sure he can reconnect a few wires, maybe even turn on a light or two fur ya.

ATAR_i said...

Yeah, that will help you seem less schitzophrenic - NOT.

onthestreet said...

LOL. Hey, maybe. The wire connectors are called nutrients: There are nutrients for the body, nutrients for the mind, nutrients for the soul, and nutrients for the spirit. Do you know what each of them refer to?

ATAR_i said...

Alrighty then, please pass me the Thorazine - this will only hurt a little bit Street, and reserve a padded cell for OTS.

onthestreet said...

Thorazine? People who are going through a deep depression in addition to electroshock are often given thorazine.

Thorazine is a major tranquilizer, used to suppress agitation and thought disorders. It is usually used after lesser strength drugs have been effective. "Save the big guns for last". They claim that the only serious long term potential disorder is tardive dyskinesia.

Now you're admitting to "deep depression and thought-disorder"? That's what I've been saying all along, sister. The joys and the clarity of mind and body come through a personal representative of God. But you will never believe or accept that while remaining flippant and abusive to yourself, and to people who are living those joys.

ATAR_i said...

thorazine is used for the treatment of schitzophrenia (severe disruptions in thought and perception).

Did you never read my profile OTS? Did you not notice my profession? Does that make you blind - or ignorant - or ahem, excuse me (your probably just ignoring it).

onthestreet said...

Right. That's what i said.

ATAR_i said...

uh, no you didn't

onthestreet said...

AHAH!

ATAR_i said...

no, you didn't

onthestreet said...

Did so, did not, did so, did not...