Sunday, January 15, 2006

Saturday Morning Meeting

January 14, 2006

What happened?


Anonymous said...

explain what you want to know about saturday. did some thing happen?

Anonymous said...

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Anonymous said...

If you did that from memory, I'm impressed.

If it was just cut-and-paste, I am not.

Anonymous said...

i do live in this good place and i have been here all my life i went to school and have rased a good family and payed my shere put for the life of me never have i seen so mutch abuse of a pepole by a goverment of state this is not the usa that my for fathers and i mite add my for mothers fought for as that was there choice to live that way. and i fallow in there foot steps you can take all that i have it will not change my mind i know that you will! bow the knee and confess that jesus is the crist

Anonymous said...

wow...can you say ENGLISH 101...
I'll bet your "for fathers" & "for mothers" don't take credit for that one..LMFAO!!!

Anonymous said...

Well, I understood your confesson of Jesus as Christ, and I agree 100%, but the rest of that kinda lost me.

Anonymous said...

Does Jethro and Granny ring a bell?
I hope you can cipher and " goesinta "
( 2 goesinta 4 twice ) getter than you can spell. Third grade is tough isn't it? Fourth grade is a killer!

Anonymous said...

goesinta and getter are words?

fundy said...

I think there are alot of good people who live in the Creek.

Anonymous said...

What happened with the meeting of the new Board of the UEP and Bruce Wisan??
That was supposed to be in Colorado City on Satuday Morning wasn't it?
Don't any of us regular people get to know what they are going to do to help us get their land back?
There better be a way to find out or it will be just as bad as the old style of Bull-shit.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Anon 10:16 PM

I think the UEP Trustee meeting was held last Saturday the 7th instead of this past Saturday the 14th.

Anyway, why don't you email Bruce Wisen and ask him what happened? From what I have read on this blog, he is an open kind of guy who welcomes questions. Here is his email -

Anonymous said...

I thought you were asking about the grand jury subpoenas handed out on Saturday

rumor-has-it said...

that is what we want to know about.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone who lives in the Crik believe anyone else? Is there a newspaper, T.V. Station, Radio station, area magazine or any other form of communication that attempts to go to the source of all the rumors and get the facts?

Ask for the facts, ask for them to be presented in the simplest form possible. Type them on leaflets and ask the State's representative to sign it to give it authenticity. Then distribute these 'fact' sheets to every family. Once you have this information then you can at least be mad about the same thing at the same time.

From the bits and pieces I get, from afar, I can understand why confusion seems to rule supreme. You all want to claim one faith, but only if it matches, to the dotted I and the crossed T with your own. Any deviation is of the devil.
You argue over the most petty things, the proper clothing, what's a sin, can you be cast out for drinking lemonade etc. You are being just plain silly. Get your priorities straight.

You are dealing with a complicated legal problem that you don't seem to be able to understand. You will never be able to make any headway toward settlement until you agree to quit your bickering and agree to find a way to meet the requirements set by the state in order to redeem your homes and land.

Remember this: You or your parents deeded your property over to UEP. UEP assumed the responsability of paying all taxes due on the property. Warren Jeffs mis-appropriated UEP funds and left the fund practally broke. The taxes are still due. UEP did not pay them when they were due. Therefore, the State, as is it's right has chosen to place UEP under state regulation until the taxes due the state are paid. If the taxes are not paid, then the state, according to law, has the right, and responsability to the citizens of the rest of the state to sell the tax debted property to a third party, who could be you, or someone else, in order to satisfy the debt left owing by the UEP.

In your mind you have paid tithes plus+++into the hands of your elected church leaders and through them into the UEP. You did so with the intent of supporting all of you for the common good. You did your part. The directors of the UEP did not do their part and neither did your Priesthood for not insisting that regular audits of the UEP be made.

An audit is an examination of the records by an accounting firm whose sole purpose is to determine if all funds donated to the fund went to the job for which they were intended and that all funds spent from the fund are accounted for.

If the UEP had been required to give annual or semi-annual reports as per audit of an independent auditing firm then you would not be faced with the problem of having to dig down and figure out how to get money to pay back and present taxes on houses you built with your own hands, paid for with your own money, sitting on land purchased by yourself or your forefathers.

So, get mad, but direct your venom toward those who should have been taking care of the business you entrusted them with. Your priesthood for failure to insist good and accurate records be kept and audited and the UEP board and their mis-appropriation of the funds that you trusted them to use for the good of your community.

Being mad at the State serves no purpose. The state sent the tax bill, the UEP failed to pay, took the money and used it elsewhere and now you are paying the cost.

Think about it. Its true.

fundy said...

Well taxes may not be the only problem. All this talk about taxes is interesting but from what I have heard from people who live in the creek,there was a loan taken out on UEP property for the maximum amount. And that is why the accountant who has been on and off this blog has advised people to pick up their property at the tax auction, why,o why, because the tax auction will nulify any outstanding loans on the property,
unless they foreclose before the auction. And it looks as though there is no real idea how many loans or creditors may be out there.

Anonymous said...

It is not tough to find out who owns mortgages on any given piece of property.

Here's how:

Go to the Mohave County Assessor's office in Kingman. Ask the nice lady for help. She will pull out maps that show your Assessor's Parcel Numbers. Write them down.

Then go to the the Mohave County Recorder's Office in Kingman. Ask the nice lady for help. She will show you how to find out if a mortgage has been taken out on the property you occupy.

One hint: Be nice to the nice ladies.

Anonymous said...

Pay attention to 1/17/06 3:55

This post hits the nail square on the head. Find out where you are first. What good is a map if you haven't a clue where you are starting from?

For a small copy fee, the County Recorder will probably make you a copy of each of those documents. by having them in hand you will:

1.) Know the debt amount

2.) Know the length of the term of the note and when its due.

3. Know who signed the note.

4. Compile all notes, leins, attachments, etc. to get a good idea of what you are up against.

5. Find out the exact amount of tax due now, and at the deadline.

6. When you pay the tax see if you can free the land title from the UEP and return it's ownership to you and your family.

7. Teach your children just what happened, in detail, teach it to them until they can quote it back to you word for word. Attempt to make it a family rule that never shall your family be so naive so as to allow your home to be held in trust by untrustworthy people again. The Isralites taught their children in this way.

8. Get a ruling as to whether you having redeemed the tax lien removes all previous liens and gives you title, free and clear.

fttc said...

There is something some of you seem to not understand. When the UEP was started the land it began on was donated by one man, Leroy Johnson. Since that time there have been tracts added to it. Posters keep talking about people getting back their house and property. This land was never theirs. If the land was returned to those who donated it there are about five families that would receive property and the rest would be left out.

This is what makes the job of Wisan so difficult. If the current residents of the Short Creek area are given the titles to their property it will be just that. Given to them. I am not saying it would be wrong to give each resident their property. I know or have known some of the men who donated the property to the UEP, and while they would be broken hearted to see the failure of their endeavor, I think they would want it justly distributed. They were/are benevolent, charitable men.

Most of the residents of CC/Hildale have put money and effort into improving the property they were assigned. warren has been moving families around on a regular basis so few can now say they built the house they occupy. He has families so mixed up and rearranged many of the children could put claims on several men's efforts. In a nutshell this is a bigger mess than many of you can comprehend, real estate lawyer or not.

Anonymous said...

Its simple, its "unjust enrichment" under the law. In place of owning the property beneath, how about being financially compensated for the labor and building materials. Kind of like a contractor mechanics lein. This wouldn't solve past tithing, but that was in free choice, at a point in time. The same for work projects. But under the courts ruling in Jeffs vs Stubbs, the "unjust enrichment" clause suggests that "tenants at will" still deserve financial compensation.

I'd say dig out your building material receipts and estimate your labor conservatively.

Anonymous said...

Well in the case of Connell Bateman, he gave up his home in 2001. To be fair to those living in a home he built or paid to build, he might be expected to reimburse the tax cost between 2001 and now. That provided taxes were paid durring that time. Since no one is paying a morgage payment and only taxes, then that might be the extent of their claim. Then whether the UEP should pay to reimburse or the former builder as it were (as though Connell was an unpaid contractor exercising a lein) is debateable. Living rent free is less than the hardship of being the original builder.

Then there is the option of having those who built the homes, buy and pay for the land beneath at the fair market value, either at the time of construction or on a slide scale between then and now. This would generate cash flow for the UEP and a transfered deed would allow for bank loans to borrow to pay the land purchase cost and if desired enough to finish the construction, since half of the houses are unfinished. Of course there would be a new experience here, called a morgage payment! But then they could as well sell their homes, with money to start over elsewhere.

Its a mess, but under existing laws, a mechanics lein is a basic principle. Then there is always a lein filed under the UCC or Uniform Commercial Code of 1934, where by a title can be clouded, pending a judges ruling. After all atleast 2 families in Colorado City have already done this.

mugwump said...


In Utah/Arizona is property sometimes deeded on a "Quit Claim" deed? In Texas, if title has a glitch, but it is probable that no future court challenge could break it, a "quit" deed may be issued. All this admits to is that the seller or donator of the property via the terms of the deed in the future, he/she their heirs/assigns etc. are to recognize the deed as being valid.

This situation may come about when an individual may have inherited property as a sole heir, been deemed incompetent and died with no known heirs, therefore an imperfect title would have to be issued.

In the name of unity, if at all a possibility, this option might be worthy of note.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like a Quiet Title Change. If you hold land, live on it, without objection, paying the taxes and making the repairs without challenge, you can in some cases get a court to transfer the title. Its a matter of openly possessing property unapposed and being responsible for the taxes and such.

Some interesting challenges are coming for both the fudiciary and those squating on the land. A course in case law pertaining to property rights could be a valued class if held in Colorado City today. Learning options and the law might help or hurt, depending on which side of the issue you sit on.

fttc said...


Anon 12:10 answered as well as I could have. I am not a legal expert by any means. I think what Anon said would only apply after some time of one paying the tax themself. I have had a little experience with the Quiet Title statutes. If anyone challenges the transfer of title it has to go to court to be resolved. Fortunately for me the former title holder did not challenge the transfer. The property had been out of their hands for close to forty years and I am sure they did not stand a chance in court. This would not be the case with UEP property. I believe there would be challenges made even for those dissidents who have, per the UEP suits, kept their taxes paid up for ten years or so.

The suggestion for education is an excellent one. Probably it would only be heeded by non-warren residents. Of course it is only natural to feel little sympathy for those who will not help themselves. The state will still have the problem of hundreds of families potentially out of a home. What do you do when mothers and fathers won't take care to protect their families?

I recently spoke to a warrenite who has teenage children turning dilinquent. He was beside himself about what to do. At the same time he admits that the lack of community entertainment is probably the greatest contributing factor but still is against it.

These people are not totally blind to what is coming at them with the property issues. They just insist on acting like they are.

fttc said...

"I'd say dig out your building material receipts and estimate your labor conservatively." from above post.

There are many people who have built their homes largely by trading labor, and in some cases even the building materials, for labor performed for others. Barter such as this is commonly used to avoid the taxes. There were no records kept in many of these cases. Is is right to not be compensated for bartered labor?

It doesn't matter what solution one comes up with. There are no simple answers.

mugwump said...

I have learned since my first post regarding "Quit Claim" that most of the property upon which private dwelling have been build was given, in total by a man by the name of Johnson. The contribution was not given to individuals but to the UEP. This technicality is so great that I doubt that anyone can ever gain a completely clear title. Why? Because the UEP is the owner of record and does not have the money, as of last report, to keep the taxes current. All I can say is "WOW, what a mess you have allowed yourselves to be caught up in, with no remedy in sight."

Anonymous said...

I am sure they appreciate your "help", Mugwump.

mugwump said...

Well, appreciated or not the post was factual, as far as I know.

Anonymous said...

I didn't see any facts in there. All I saw was a bunch of opinions from a blowhard who thinks his or her opinions should carry the same weight as facts.

Anonymous said...

Getting back to the thread topic - what happened at the Saturday meeting? I read about supeonnas being issued.

can someone please tell me more about this?


Anonymous said...

Grand jury subpoenas were served by FBI at FLDS meeting, they all ran out the doors like rats.

Article was also published on this by Success paper in Eldorado, TX as well.

Grand juries indict, perhaps raketeering, tax fraud, operating an organized crime business etc.

Anonymous said...

See January 26 Phoenix New Times story on the FBI raid on LSJ meeting hall.

onthestreet said...

Anonymous said...
Grand jury subpoenas were served by FBI at FLDS meeting, they all ran out the doors like rats.
1/26/2006 12:09 AM

STREET'S Reply: Well, okay, they all ran out the door like Ratziel, the Archangel Ratziel. I realize you were trying to come to the truth of the matter, but just couldn't quite do it.