Saturday, June 04, 2005

Ephemera & Documents

The question of documentaion comes up daily and with it, inquiries to access the same. Today by request, I will go to Staples and copy the Rulon Jeffs deposition May 4th & 5th 1989. To cover by cost of copying, postage and the time my secretarial service takes to copy this, the same is available to any interested party for $40.00

The document is actually close to 225 pages. Armed with the sworn words of Rulon Jeffs, debating what he said is better than hearsay or an emotionally based opinion absent of facts.

I have always recommended Ben Bistlines book as he goes over board with photo copies of affidavits, documents of record, etc. At one time I bought his book and forwarded it to several agencies as out of pocket expense. I have no copier and can not afford to meet the request of so many, especially from the press, that this is the best I can do.

From time to time, I may offer other items, but as I leave now to make one copy, the same is available to others, who feel documation and data is needed. Those who have requested info in the past and the one today, are of a private nature and need not fear that others here can identify them.

The suggestion of converting the audio cassettes to text is something I am considering as well, though some here would still claim these are not the spoken words of the Jeffs, but not everyone considers every shred of facts a conspiracy, to mis speak Warren or Rulon's earlier intent.

You can email questions to;


Men In Black said...

To keep things equal, another document that defines life in Bountiful is; "LIFE IN BOUNTIFUL" A report on the lifestyle of a polygamous community, prepared by the Committee on Polygamous Issues, for the "British Columbia Ministry of Women's Equality", April 1993. This was on the heels of a sexual abuse case prosecuted earlier, where a conviction was obtained.

This document is approximately 130 pages and I will copy it pages back to back, put a binder and covers on it and mail it in the USA, for $30.00 A copy of the trust is included within and arguably it offers the views of women in the the lifestyle who had since left.

I will try to find enough items to remove any doubt of teachings and the policies of the leaders per the dates of what is offered.

For questions email me at;

Men In Black said...

Another crowd pleaser; "Purity in The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" published by Rulon Jeffs, Sandy Utah 1997. This book was used on the CBC TV documentary "You Can Never Leave" and "The Bishop of Bountiful". Its also seen the inside of a court room. On page 139 & 140 it explains the reassignment of wives and justifies it. Page 68 to 74 explains "blood atonement" and authored by Rulon Jeffs no one here can dispute his meaning other than what he put into text.

This is for educational and law enforcement use and cost me $30.00 to reproduce.

Men In Black said...

I tried to get my Dragon Voice Recognition system to type Warren's speech, but it came out as jibberish and was unreadable! The best I can do is discribe the cassette available. It is "Young Peoples History of Joseph Smith, Tape #36 March 25th 1997, Celestial & Plural Marriage Required, along with Evils of John C. Bennett (Bennett tried to chose his own women, which countered Joseph's teachings). This one has been widely heard by the press and some may have used it. Because it discusses preparation for marriage it has been of interest to several. This was taught at the Alta Academy to students 5th to 8th grade, in some cases you can hear students posing questions to Warren.

Rather than debate Warren's statements as hear say, this is a chance to listen to his thoughts on marriage in his own words.

For $10.00 I will copy and send this postage paid in the USA. I have a simple side by side cassette, so copies are a slow production and they force me to listen as its being taped, if I get converted its your fault!

Men In Black said...

Next a 41 minute coversation with a Utah Senator that served 3 terms. The recording was made October 21st of 2002 durring the hotly debated political race for governor of Arizona. It was the night of the Mesa Arizona debate between candidates Matt Salmon, Richard Mahoney and Janet Napolitano. The phone call was followed by a call to the mainstream LDS church, seeking Mike Otterson. The dialog with the former senator identified just how high the issue of polygamy had been discussed in the mainstream church and the later call to the church was at the urging of this former senator.

There was some shock in the fact that Snow & Nuffer were representing Colorado City as city attorneys, at a time when Steve Snow had since been appointed to General Authority of the LDS church, with David Nuffer appointed to federal magistrate by former Utah Governor Mike Leavitt. The deniability of what the mainstream LDS church was aware of is revealed in this Arizona conversation.

Who the senator called that night might be even more interesting if you are in the press.

Rather than simply blaming Warren for much of his actions, there are those who profitted from running interference, paid well for there service and duly rewarded with state appointments.

$10.00 postage paid in the US and you can hear whether Gordon B. Hinkley knew of these issues or not. Don't bother debating me, a recorded call documents the moment in time!

Men In Black said...

Better than Memorex! October 4th of 2000, Jacque Rivard of CBC TV in Canada interviewed Winston in an informal press conference. A reporter that did not have a live remote recorded her interview on cassette and I have that in a 16 page typed dialog. With some sadness the reporter retired from this issue and released her files.

I suppose my disagreement with Winston has been being lied to. While dialog was zip in years gone by, Winston has since broke that silence. The courteous and pleasant dialog always ended with be honest and tell the truth, but I had these interviews nearly 5 years ago but could not use them.

When Venessa Rohbock became an issue, it was I who was dealing with the Boundary County Sheriff and the later RCMP investigation countered not then, but now what the Share The Light web site disclosed about Vanessa's plight. The RCMP which interviewed several offered one story after interviewing Winston as Vanessa was under Warren's cloud and Winston denied both the threat from Warren and the fact that Warren was preaching "blood atonement". The January 30th 2005 newsletter, since downloaded, discussed Vanessa's plight and it did not match the RCMP report, while authored by Winston, one in the same with the one interviewed by the RCMP! Then to state the FLDS never preached "blood atonement" counters Rulons book offered above, pages 68 to 74. The issue was not whether Winston believed in the teaching, but rather whether Warren or his father had taught it.

When Lorraine Johnson went north to marry Winston, a reporter had recorded an interview with Ray Johnson and Lorraine was one of several underage. The transcript identifies Lorraine as Winston's wife and yet in the Bishop of Bountiful, a lie, no underage brides. It goes much deeper, with far more documentation, but dialog to exchange truths, verses dialog to spread lies, short changes those who expect honesty within there own leaders, unless lying for the faith is some how justified?

Either the RCMP lied in their interview or someone purgured themself in a RCMP investigation. Then in a TV interview, no underage brides, but in a interview by Winston the acknowledgement of a girl, whom her father documented as underage! Interviewing has its set backs, getting caught in lies is one of those.

$5.00 and postage paid you can have Winston's interview. New and improved per a PR stunt on April 19th, he lied after Warren was no longer a threat to him.

Anonymous said...

Who woke up Men in Black? It was so nice to have a break from all of his long argumentative blogs.

Anonymous said...

I would have to agree. Nine tenths of his posts are bragging about all the crap he has on everybody. I think you could probably get your point across in one or two sentences, Jay. No one cares about what a great researcher you are or what "sources" you have.

ATAR_i said...

I appreciate Jay's information and perpective. They are intelligent, documented, passionate and well reasoned.

Anonymous said...

I pass by Jays stuff the same as onthestreet. In our First Nations talk, Jay speaks with a forked tongue. In his mind he is the only fellow in America that knows the truth.

And atari, that certainly says something about you.

Men In Black said...

If you don't like it, don't read it or come to an area where I posted! You seem addicted to debate. Since I have been contacted by the SLPC, NPR, along with several unnamed media contacts from this blog, it would appear as if the audience is mixed here.

Several have asked for detailed backup data and this forum seems the place to reach many with a single posting. While government employees are collecting wages to investigate claims, obsessed people like me have spent thousands of $ on huge phone bills, travel cost, equipment rental, mailing cost and in the reproduction of documentation.

Here in these blogs and audience hears lies of those claiming, no abuses occured, claiming blood atonement was never taught and more. I am simply here to keep those who would lie honest, using documentation that was generated by the prophet and or dialog with investigative agencies.

Allowing an audience to chose your truth or mine overloaded with facts and documentation, permits them to seperate fact from fiction. Then when does another mans truth, threaten your version of the same events?

I entered this as the Tri-State Rep. of FOR KIDS SAKE and that makes this business my business, no matter what any one thinks. Then I have posted my name and email address and those who whine the loudest are ANONYMOUS, isn't that how you signed your RANTS?

Had a dozen inquiries not asked me to elaborate on this blog, I would of stayed on the WARRENJEFFS blog that wanted me there for still unclear reasons why. If you don't like this, hit your delete key, its easy!
Jay Beswick

Men In Black said...

Well to continue, the St. George FBI came under scrutny after they denied Associated Press THREE FOIA requests for files pertaining to the Trafficking question across the Candian Border. The response I will post below, acknowledged a closed file, which countered lies told to Robert Gehrke then of Associated Press out of Washington D.C. This was after CBCTV had interviewed Carol Anderson with Canada's INS, Geoff Plant the British Columbia Attorney General & Ron Barton the former Utah investigator of closed societies, each documenting the juvenile crossing issue in the Television documentary.

The situation of being caught in a lie, actually helped in heightening the interest in Washington DC retated to the Victim Trafficking Protection Act of 2000. Then with samples of drugs removed from Black's operation in Hildale, the FBI's indifference to state agencies already involved, created red flags that have further increased concerns.

The story today in the local St. George Spectrum on Mark Shurtleff accuses him of the same mindset of the local FBI and instead of cooling the issue, regular voting constituents are left wondering what else worse than child brides is being ignored here?

The FBI response inpart below;

This morning I spoke with Gail Gneckow regarding information you provided to her in the past. As she recalls it was 2000 or 2001 when she last had contact with you. She recalls telling you that there was no provable criminal violation and that she was closing the case. She also recalls you threatening to go to the media because you were not happy with the outcome. At times we are not able to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt (the standard of proof in a criminal trial). At that point we close the case and begin working on other cases that we think you can prove. You do not contact every complainant/victim/witness and tell them the case has been closed and the reasons why. It just doesn’t work the way you perhaps expect it to.

As a general rule the FBI does not get involved in street level and small time drug cases. The FBI works with DEA, US Customs, and other federal, state, and local agencies in Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) program. OCDETF cases involve tons of marijuana, or 25 plus pounds of cocaine, heroin, or methamphetamine and a large importation/manufacturing/distribution network. If I understand correctly, after reading through four or five e-mail messages, (former William Black Employee/removed) have some knowledge or participated in the manufacture of drugs (possibly meth??) with William Black in Hildale. The various e-mails indicate someone in law enforcement will be/has been notified of the allegation. As I understand it you are forwarding these e-mails to me in order for me to make sure the allegation is followed up but do not state who and which agency has already been notified and might be investigating the issue. One e-mail message from Ron Barton to you lists the telephone number of the DEA agent in Salt Lake City and asks that you call the DEA agent. If you have not already spoken with him I suggest you contact DEA in St. George or the Washington County Drug Task Force at (phone number).

I have recorded calls with the FBI and what could not be proven in 2000/2001 is another story in 2005. How bad does ANONYMOUS want to shut me up and where do you fit in the broader scemes to enterprise on the Arizona strip?

I don't know, who here wants to know what was going on with law enforcement for the past 5 years, as info was slowly or poorly acted on?

Anonymous said...

We're sure glad that you have a name "men in black," so like Ruth and onthestreet, we can pass you by.

Men In Black said...

But you didn't, thats my point! Whether you believe or any amount of facts would alter what you believe, you still keep looking in to follow the most recent post. If not you, then NPR, Dr. Phil, A Current Affair, Larry King Live and other lurkers! You still want to follow what they are reading and as stated a very mixed group follows this blog....


fttc said...

I admire your tenacity in trying to find the truth if that is what you seek. If you have evidence that is infallable in its source, and will prove without a doubt your claims, why not take it to the authorities? I believe you have much information that is documented and backed up with audio. While there is no doubt of the existence of much corruption among the FLDS, I know from my own experience some of what you claim is distorted. You do not have all the facts straight. The characters of some of your sources are to me very questionable.

I don't believe you can find any crimes committed by the leadership of this people or with their consent or knowledge prior to the rise of the Barlow/Warren Jeffs takeover (pre 1980). You come across to me as having an agenda to take out the entire fundamentalist group. In spite of your belief differences the Preisthood Group are not a bad people in toto. If the people had not left the fundamental teachings of Joseph Smith, Warren/Barlows would not have had any influence with them. The corruption that is rampant now in Short Creek would not exist. Most probably men who are now leading figures would be in jail.

I admit it is hard at times to get through your posts and I wish they could be condensed. And I wish you could not crow quite so much. But in all you have brought things out into the open that make sense as to what was really going on. though it is not something that was voiced very loud there many people in Short Creek who have had suspicions of what you claim for years. And to those who would have you quieted: Don't close your minds because you don't like what he is saying. With the misinformation he may have, there is a lot of truth in what he says. Perhaps that is what is so troubling?

Anonymous said...

the problem is: it's like trying to sort through a cowpie to find something good.

Anonymous said...

Or going through hell for a heavenly cause; depending on your perspective.

Anonymous said...

Nope! You got it right the first time. Ever watched the little black bantam rooster scratch a cowpie all over the place looking for that little piece of recycled grain? Get the drift? I for one have asked some of those law enforcement people about MIB. He doesn't have much credibility with any of them. So, keep scratching bub! You are bound to find a kernal here or there.

fttc said...

Which people? Can you give names? Are you speaking of state/federal authorities or Short Creek locals?

GBNF said...

MIB's posts can be a struggle to read through, but they seem to sure get a lot of people's panties in a bunch. Trying to blame all the corruption on Barlows/Warren is wrong. The corruption started with the organization of Short Creek and UEP. It has done nothing but grow and fester. Look at the history, from crooked land deals to child was all there from the beginning.

fttc said...


Can you document or give me some more facts on how this started that early? Give me some factual evidence that Leroy Johnson, John Y. Barlow, Charles Zitting or Joseph Musser was involved in any corruption?

GBNF said...

I urge you to read The Polygamists by Ben Bistline, or Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. Otherwise I could posts long arduous posts and have people compare my posts to that of Street Fruit, Ruth, or MIB.

Briefly, John Y. Barlow et al were instructed by their file leaders not to organize.

Start there!

ATAR_i said...

Not to beat a dead horse, but if we're getting technical, the group basically continued polygamy, which was against the law.

Now, before you get your panties in a wad (or boxers) - let me eloborate.

If you allow yourself, and you teach your children that only certain laws need to be obeyed - aren't you setting the basis for something like this.

quiet canadian said...

People keep referring to all these books that have been written about the polygamist people. These books are all based on an idea from a true to life situation, but they are nothing more than a novel. gbnf your advice to read these books for the evidence of wrong doing is nonsence. I might as well read The Wizard of Oz and go along with the tin man in search of the great wizard as believe this other writings. They seem to me to be nothing more than hate literature. They have sure excited alot of people to hatred against the People of Short Creek.

Anonymous said...

ANGEL here again - Cowpie buddy - for all your pretending to sound intelligent -- heres one for you about LAW ENFORCEMENT everywhere and anywhere. You say you called them and THEY told you that MIB didn't "have a lot of credibility" Prove that YOU have some, and tell us which body of Law Enforcement said such a thing - Because I'd like to call your bluff on that! During an investigation - which has taken God's own time to finally happen - there is NO LAW ENFORCEMENT BODY THAT WOULD MAKE SUCH AN UNPROFESSIONAL STATEMENT ABOUT ANYONE -- ESPECIALLY SOMEONE INVOLVED IN PROVIDING EVIDENCE AND INFORMATION OF THE TYPE PEOPLE HAVE ENTRUSTED TO MIB. I hope you aren't who I think you are because I had estimated that you are actually a very intelligent - or have the potential to be a very intelligent well educated person. You could also have the good grace to apologize to MIB. At this point there is noone who would admit it but I am sure all arms of Government and Law Enforcement from Canada, through all Western States to Mexico have been really irritated with MIB because he is really tenacious and hasn't given up -- he actually expected them to do their job. But he was a life-line to severely abused, traumatize, men, women, and children while he lived in Utah -- and for nothing. If he was actually paid to do anything he did for anyone you could suspect he had an ulterior motive because he wasn't in it for any religious glory -- he isn't into that crap. At the same time he knows and has forgotten more about more religions, governments, gangs, and rescueing people than you and I will EVER learn. If they hired him to work in that so called Victims Services trailor in CC the great State of Arizona would actually get some of the people in danger help. Everyone that I know who had met MIB face to face trusts him and knows he is in it because he hates child abuse, and he hates injustice. So go for a walk with your cows and the crows unless you will help or at least shut up and learn something.
Nevermore quoth the Raven - Nevermore!

Lorraine Johnson said...

Yes,I am THE Lorraine Johnson and no,I couldn't quite read this blog without defending myself and my husband a little.I wasn't aware that Winston ever told anyone that there never were any underage marriages,although I know he said on several occasions that most girls were 20+.I was a little young I admit,but I was a determined girl.Most of the girls getting married were between 22 and 25 years old and I felt like that was a waste of precious time.We were being taught that the end of the world would come in the year 2000 and more than anything I wanted to raise some children of my own.I was the first young girl to marry plural that I know of,and it was only by a lot of faith and persuasion on my part that it even happened.I don't know what Winston may have told the media back then,but I do know that he's as good a father as you could ever find,and I could never find a better person to help me raise my children.I am now 22 years old and contemplating what turns my life could have taken had I not made the choices I did.I still love the man,and I'm reaping the joys of motherhood,and of having sister-wives who are my very best friends.I don't think there is anyone in the world who I would like to trade lives with.I would never encourage one of my girls to do what I did,but at the same time I don't regret the choice I made,and I hope that you fellow bloggers will make an allowance for me.I have never intentionally broken any laws and I am striving to teach my children to be law abiding citizens.

Anonymous said...

My Good Quiet Canadian, You get so stuck on the mournful tale of, "these books exciting hatred against the good people of Short Creek." Just listen to yourself or maybe check in to Winston Blackmore's, Share the website. You must not be a faithful member of his congregation if you don't read these already. He says himself that the happenings of the last 5 years inside the group have done more to destroy, families, lives, the UEP and all the rest than Governor PYle did in the 53 raid or anything else. If you refer to Ben Bistlines Book then I doubt you have even read it because except for one little part where you can tell that Ben doesn't like Sam Barlow even a little bit when Sam was the "Sherrif" there, Ben has told a very impartial history of the UEP and all the vagaries of it. You should maybe Google all the news stories of the last 5 years and see how many had anything at all to do with these so called personal books that are all Wizard of Oz Fantasies. And count the ones that are about horror stories about Dan Barlow Junior sexually assaulting 5 of his daughters. Also count the ones about the YFZ ranch and then try to blame that on the Wizard of Oz! We could only wish the this nightmare made near as much sense as the Wizard of Oz! Quite trying to minimize the seriousness of what is really happening and blaming the "PERSECUTION" of them poor, people of Short Creek on those horrible people who write books. If you have even one family member in harmsway because of Warren jeffs - and if you read these blogs and know ANYTHING about your own people then you likely do. You must expect that the media and the rest of the world feels the same way the teaching of the group has always been to, "mind your own business" which is a great idea unless there are children in harms way. Then if you can't figure out why people CARE then you need to read the story of Cain and Abel again and ask - which of the two are you??
Stop Whining and blaming a few apostates and their books on the persecution and figure out that this is 2005. Most people don't pretend they can't see children are in harms way - especially when there are hundreds of lost men, women, boy, girls, and children. Get over the apostate crap. Half of all the people in the group are apostates of the same group you were all members of just 3 short years ago. How does it feel??

ATAR_i said...

Lorraine - you sound like a lovely woman - and I for one am so glad to have another woman speaking out (too much testosterone in the room sometimes).

GBNF said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
GBNF said...

Quiet Canadian,
It does not surprise me that you reject these books. It is hard to accept that everything you have been taught your entire life was bogus.
Both books are based on research from historical documents. Have you read them? Or are you afraid that some of the truths therein will sway your testimony? Can you produce documentation that the religion you believe is the truth? Or is it just your opinion, based on conditioning?

In my youth I believed because I dared to believe nothing else. Everyone I knew and loved believed and committed their lives to it, how could it be wrong?

There is an amazing weight that lifts off of you, when you see the truth.
It is all bogus. Joseph Smith is one great story teller!

Anonymous said...

Suffer the Little Children,
Hi Lorraine, you are brave to make such a statement. How wonderful that you are happy and your sister-wives are your best friends. Just to let you know that anything MIB might include in his information could never be an attack on you as a person. It is the principle of the thing - As a person concerned for the safety of children anywhere in the world anyone would have been concerned at that point. You must not have seen the Fifth Estate doc if you didn't hear Winston say that there were no marriages under 16 - all people would like to hear is the truth. People definitely get the idea that there is something to hide when they can realize that there are deliberate contradictions. But that isn't really the point. The point is that you are safe now. You are getting an education and your children are safe. Despite the past issues of immigration and the concerns of underage girls being brought across the border -- right now I wish that all the girls already here would claim asylum as refugee so you would never have to be sent back into the States for any reason. Until the mess is sorted out down there, there is just as much harm and danger as there is for refugees in most foreign countries where refugee's come from. If you have trouble sorting out why people are horrified about the underage girls married in the last 10 years then you have answered your own question. You were all taught terrifying things about the end of the world that made you so determined that you needed to be married so young. I know that you know how wrong that was now. If you are just 22 years old now you wouldn't know how many other girls were married at 15 and 16 years old in the FLDS. Other Polygamous Groups can definitely be worse than that and even set up deliberate marriages with inbreeding to a gross degree. So the problem is that some people who talk about polygamy lump all the polygamous groups together and blame all the same things on all the groups. But there have been many girls married at that age, maybe not as many in Canada but most people know that Bountiful is a part of what was the Colorado City, Salt Lake City, and the Mexican group. There are all kinds of explainations and histories of people getting married at all ages for all different reasons culturally and historically. I have heard that you had a Polygamy Summit with your Bountiful Women's Society and you all decided that girls will not be getting married until they are 18 anymore. Since girls are individuals you might have a tough time making all of them stick to that because it takes all kinds to make a world - and it is about their having free agency?? If there are lots of choices and education available to the girls and boys they will be so distracted they won't think about getting married that soon.
I can certianly understand the choice you made considering what you everyone was going through at the time. I think you would have a hard time finding anyone who isn't happy that you are happy and safe. If I could talk to MIB - or if you could ask him how he feels about how you are now -- he would say he is glad you are safe. He certianly would not want you at the YFZ ranch.

fttc said...


One good turn deserves another. I would recommend the introduction to the Documentary History of the Church by B.H. Roberts. He does an excellent job of documenting the scriptures and evidences that led to the work of Joseph Smith. Likewise this will eliminate lengthy blogs and comparing me to Sreet, Ruth and MIB.

Cheerio! May your burden always be light!

fttc said...


I got your point and do agree with it. I don't know how much research you have done on the polygamy issue but one of the teachings from Joseph Smith was to obey all constitutional law. The anti-polygamy laws were made in violation of the first amendment. I know this opens up a whole can of worms and if it gets any response should probably have its own blog. I just wanted to help you understand there are some of us who do not beleive because one law is wrong all of them are.

Anonymous said...

It doesn't take a prophet to tell you that Angel, Angel of Morning and MIB are wearing the same shorts. Get a grip on yourself bub!

Anonymous said...

Angel Of Morning says, anonymous, Good Grief, You have obviously skipped over MIB's posts or you wouldn't imagine we are the same person. Our writing style is nothing alike. I met MIB when he was offering all "apostates" a place to meet and gather in 2000. Some of us - who like you (being an apostate branded by some - and brainwashed as the Warrenites would say or you would call the Warrenites) OLD Apostates who didn't dare meet each other finally came together because we were all scared of what was happening to our families. I am not MIB I have been in the same vicinity where he lives just twice - but I do know his work and the thousands of unpaid hours he has done compiling research, logging evidence, and doing everything he could to save even one runaway girl begging to never have to go home - helping her find a safe relative to live with - helping grown men ready commit suicide or kill the man that just took thier family. Just like you now. Are you the cow pattie Anonymous or the other one? The one that thinks MIB knows to much or can't concentrate long enough to read his information or thinks he's "bragging". Just think for a minute. If you scrap up every news item, documentary, 5 minute evening new blurb for the last 5 years how much air time do you think Jay Beswick has on them all??? If he was prone to brag you'd think he would have his mug in all of them. There are a couple he was dragged into because there was noone else - but that is not his style. He is quiet and does his best work that way.. His total air time would be maybe 15 minutes in 5 years. He is a good man and North America would be much better off if there was even one more of him. And you stop being rude -- this is the wrong time for it - lives are at stake here. You will yet live to be grateful that a man as good as MIB cared at all. You can still apologize - if you are representing either side of this mess you have been taught better than to be so insulting to someone who cares about ALL the victims in this situation. Too many people are still wiling to do what we all did after we were officially "no longer welcome" was limp off and decide it wasn't our problem anymore. Shame on us - and Shame on you. When enough good people do nothing - evil truimphs -- MIB works hard to be there, to be on the side of right, and let people figure out how to think - without telling them what to think. Think about it you rude person.

Anonymous said...

Angel of Morning - ooops - forgot to ask - and this is irrelevant if you aren't my cowpie buddy but -- I challenged you to let us know which Law Enforcement people says MIB isn't "credible". You were so busy jumping to conclusions and trying to say MIB and I are the same person you didn't answer? or is it that you can't because it didn't happen. MIB has a job to do - so let him do it. I could only wish I could do the kind of work he can. And there thousands of people whose lives will be better off because he cared and worked until he just about killed himself sometimes. Can you think of anyone whose life is better off or who is safer - or the world is a more honest better place because you are in it -- or do you just dream up stinging remarks about cowpies??? Challenge your self a little -- I dare you!!

Anonymous said...

Angel back at anonymous - and don't call me bub - I'm a bubette.
And use your good sense for something good. I know you can.

Anonymous said...

gbnf stated:
"In my youth I believed because I dared to believe nothing else. Everyone I knew and loved believed and committed their lives to it, how could it be wrong?"

Thanks gbnf. I too grew up in that religion believing that I had a personal testimony of the truthfullness of what we were taught. I don't know how many times I said, and heard others say that, "I know that the Work is true". But it really wasn't my testimony, as hard and as sincerely I prayed for it to be. My testimony was based on the belief and commitment of those I knew, loved and respected. As I learned to think for myself and became bold enough to do some research on my own, I realized that that was all that I could base my testimony on and that was unacceptable to me. As hard as it was, I chose to allow all those people that I loved and respected to turn their backs on me rather than live a life based on a false testimony.
I wonder how many people would really be able to stand on their own testimony if all of the people that they love and respect were to openly lose their testimonies.

Men In Black said...

Wow! A lot of postings in just a few hours. I took the day off and look what happened! There are several realities here and truth is what any one believe's. If your majority is Warrenites, then your truth might vary from that of Gentiles.

The truth per a posting last night, the LJ Meeting hall got looted last night, but only if you believe the injunction in Utah under the law is valid!

Then of course Uncle Fred and Rulon were going to live forever! They were to become young again in this life and everyone knows that several lift-off prophesies have failed. The truth is hard to face, but these predictions or prophesy's were documented and to be honest with yourselves, would you tell us now that these statements were true? Fred and Rulon died, they did not reverse their aging process and Rulon did not name a succesor.

Ben Bistline in his book copied affidavits and the trust including Rulon's affidavit, are you saying Rulon lied or that you don't believe that the text is one in the same with the one filed in the courts? While Ben includes his take on many issues, he has copied court records which to most is credible evidense.

Jon Krakauer borrowed the FLDS theology books, the ones I have mentioned or bragged about, to be as accurate as the books authors, which was Rulon Jeffs. Without being accused of bragging, look in the back of his book if you have it and read of the contributors. None the less he had the FLDS theology to support the religious aspects of his book. So maybe some don't believe I had these books and that I loaned them to Jon. Belief is what you make it and ignoring what others can verify tells which one of us is using facts to support our claims. "under The Banner of Heaven" page 346.

I am thick skinned and determined to help those who asked for help, the rest don't matter! I stated my name to be a target and to use no cover to hide. I like the fact that Lorraine was upfront as I respect such courage. If any one wants to profile me GOOGLE search my name, though I am much less popular than Flora, I don't enjoy the lime light or public speaking, flawed I suppose.

As for law enforcement, yes I am a pain in the butt and a burr under the saddle. This said, its not the same outside of Utah/Arizona. I have worked on gang issues since 1985 with greater involvement in graffiti control. On the board of nograf since 1998 located at I had my own non profit and merged at that time. We have members in 21 countries and 50% of those members are law enforcement, so it kind of depends on whom in LE you talk to.

The Utah AG or staff exchanged to many emails I have retained, to be to blunt with an opinion. I attended Santa Rosa Criminal Justice Center Academy in 1983 for federal law enforcement and am simply using the agencies blueprint for "chain of evidence" and a "paper trail", thus the FBI has only their own instructors to blame.

I am more frustrated with the FLDS attorneys than Warren, exempting Sam Barlow because his dealings reflect even more poorly, having been in law enforcement and making a bad name for that brotherhood. Local authorities in Utah and Arizona are also a hot topic with me, because they ignored abuse claims for decades and committed such to a paper trail of reports.

I lived in Hurricane Utah for over 9 years, I was not LDS, had a local business that was boycotted, served on the Washington County Interagency Gang-Drug Task Force, not with out occasional conflicts. Kirk Smith which is the local sheriff I am at odds with because he returned Caroline Cooke knowing Marvin was under investigation for Incest with Roberta's daughter Afton, by West Valley Utah PD. I put Kirk on Television with Bob Grover of KSL TV in 1993 when he ran for sheriff and lost, so I kind of knew him 7 years prior to getting involved in this issue.

Since I was the one who brought in the the EPA out of Denver to do the 1992/93 site investigation of the Sliver Reef/5M Company SUPERFUND site investigation, locals in Southern Utah don't like me much. Local boys poluted ground water aquafirs with a leaching operation that used potasium cyanide and sulphiric acid, then abandoned the site. Transformers with PCB were turned over and leaking as well. Up watershed from Quail Lake, I was concerned with the health and welfare of those down stream. So yes I have my fans and enemies, those that like to see the evil and greed of men burried and hidden. I would tell you my expertise in hazardous materials, but that might be bragging, so lets say I have a knowledge of that field.

To Lorraine I wish a good life, but maintain a concern for the future of underage girls who are pressured to make decision uninformed and beneath the age of maturity under the law. Her father interviewed with Suzan Mazur and that recorded call documented a concern by that journalist. Not me bragging, but if you GOOGLE search "Suzan Mazur" you will get over 5,000 hits. Lying to such a journalist/activist was poor judgement for Ray at the time. What may be more interesting is that Winston her husband and I were in dialog by email until March of this year. I took exception to being lied too and while our emails will remain private until one or the other releases them, the Vanessa Rohbock issue and another he might easily guess is the basis for stopping dialog with him. Winston is fully capable of defending his position and I assure you he has my contact information.

The issues of social welfare even in Canada raises other issues as it is others who support much of this lifestyle which is technically illegal in both countries. An observation that requires no genious is that most here, even those ousted believe in the "work", it is the leadership that is disagreed with. So for most of the media hype, those that flee do so still wishing to live the lifestyle, though under independent or other leadership. There is always a new prophet in the wings and waiting.

Early on former FLDS members went from helpful to unavailable when they believed helping might negatively impact the broader culture of the polyamous lifestyle. Several wanted help from an abusive leadership, but would not blame the abuses on the lifestyle, there was a scape-goat and that went from Rulon to Warren.

As for that early history Leroy Johnson produced 6 volumes of sermons I am aware of and I suppose we could debate those word for word? The business dealings of National Land Corporation and other enterprises suggests that some within the group prospered at the losses of others, also from the group. There was little quarrel from those outside of the faithful, the victims for the most part were those who were not considered the blue bloods, it was some what of a class system. When I think of Irwin Fischer helping to build the infrastructure of the utilities, then to be stripped of his family in such a cowardous way, I wonder how any one can defend such under the umbrella of a godly people. Though less occured under Uncle Roy, business dealings that are easily documented did show corruption within the faithful.

To argue points as though this is a culture of traditional values, ignores the reassignment of wives and children, which has become more common under Warren. The elimination of certain last names is another interesting practise that deserves explanation.

Insulting maybe, but as newspaper reported Uncle Fred as having nearly 100 children, I rest my case with every single one of these came from reassignment per sterilty and mumps as a child. I think its time those in defense of this explain the doctrine that justifies creating a bigger kingdom in the next life. Stealing families is not traditional, nor an accepted practise in addressing stability and child abuse concerns. Emotional abuse is an area not often covered by child abuse experts, but nuturing self confidence and a feeling of safety and care, can be lost when a child is reassigned at the wims of a religious leader. A child does not comprehended as an adult might and I question whether the wives fully understand this practise themselves.

Last I am the one that misspells, the one that can't write and if I use my name openly, why would I also pretend to be another?

I hope that Colorado City and Hildale will get a second chance to rebuild and my agenda is to see informed education that is science based, offered to students, girls and boys to age 18 and through a senior year. Informed of choice and the law, girls and boys will chose both the path to stay, some to leave. Its about free agency and human rights, not a religious right, not when its about juveniles. If you intend to defend a religious right to force your children to marry underage, then nothing in our dialog will change. Like former District Attorney Paul Graff of Washington County put it, a girl underage can't legally run away, but parents can intimidate them into marriage, he said to be legal the girls had to marry first, in order to flee as an emancipated wife. Remember MarryAnn Kingston, she took her assignment, but when she tried to run, her father beat her uncontous. The right to say no exist in the world beyond and if you don't get it, you need to spend time in prison where your roommate is named BUBBA and is 300 pounds, then you need to feel and understand what it feels like to say no to unwanted advances....

You might need to tell these folks that Warren teaches we never landed on the moon and that he believes the sun is filled with heavenly spirits instead of hot burning gases. Teaching children a inaccurate view of science becomes one of many stumbling stones when years later they try to survive in the world outside. You need to be more honest with the readers here, they haven't been exposed to Warren's teachings, nor do they have access to his books and cassette's or DO THEY?

Anonymous said...

On a detached note. If anybody would like to transfer over to me any cassette tapes, and/or documents, I can digitize them and place them on my FTP server so everybody can download them.


fttc said...


Are you making the point that you don't beleive anyone can live plural marriage without there being abuse? Are you saying they go hand in hand?

Men In Black said...

I am not, I know those who lived it and still do. I am saying I take issue with those underage and under the law, who are beneath the age of maturity having parents chose for them, something technically illegal. At 18 its consenting adults and can be interchangeable between the words polygamy or cohabitation. Secular verses non secular, one is in a religious context, the other not.

A parent can be rewarded or find favor from the prophet for accepting or promoting placement of his daughter underage or not. If the girl has less than equal rights as perscribed in the law, her choice or "Sarah's Law" is not really a choice. When the doctrine says she is asked and risks eternal damnation, if she choses to decline, then its hardly about informed free choice, its instead based on fear.

Underage its "Child Endangerment" under the law. If a child runs, she is a runaway to be returned. Yet force or pushed into a union that is illegal is some how permited and unchallenged. If she flees after being forced to marry, under the law, she is fleeing as an emancipated wife, though few in such a society are aware of such laws outside the life and community they know.

The trafficking and exploitation laws carefully recognize the ability of a parent or legal guardian to exploit a woman or child using authority over them. In Arizona the age of legal consent to intercourse is 16 on the provision the male "actor" is no greater than 24 months the female minors senior. It further states the male actor can not be in a position of authority over that minor. This is to prevent manipulation which can be intellect or a teacher, employer, a religious leader, the priesthood council and or a dozen other positions that share a position of power over that juvenile.

Gaining favor with Warren like installing new carpets in his huge home in theory could have gained the favor required to be recognized as one faithful and deserving a new or second wife. This is exploitation of a minor for sexual purposes. Without the law, many parents would trade favor and personal benefits for sexual consent, both in and out of a religious setting. Some mechanic might rebuild an engine in trade for sex with a minor.

The whole banana is this is about child abuse as defined under the law. I was and can still be the FOR KIDS SAKE child abuse prevention rep. As issues surfaced, I was addressing this seperately than that of groups like Tapestry, it was covered in the local news. If a woman was over 18 and claimed abuse, that was seperate, but still covered under the law under domestic violence laws. You miss my point if, its still unclear to you, this is about child abuse!

The latter situations seperately with Warren are about his abuse of power and laws on the books he has willfully violated. Fraud, misappropreiation of government funds, extorsion, welfare violations, etc. are crimes Warren is ultimately responsible for. Crimes associated with William Black or the fraud committed by those involved with the National Land Corporation are seperate from what Warren was tied to as a religious institution, but as individuals, Rulon was the bookkeeper, thus at a personal and not a religious connection Mr. Jeffs senior did participate in crimes under the law. Its all about how you slice it, in order to displace blame.

Our country is one of laws and its clear, some laws were not observed. In this blog I read that the law regarding polygamy was considered an unjust law, so breaking it was justified. The procedure is to lobby to bring about changes and to accept that constituents might challenge such new concepts. In the arguement here, laws you are unwilling to abide by are simply ignored. If the government ignored welfare, wic, food stamps and other social assistance programs, the same people would scream! When Snow, Christensen & Martineau went to court to defend the trust control of lands, the courts protection of the UEP assets were deemed a law to be observed. The day the courts reversed the decision of property rights and whom should be protected, like cowards the same now cry out the laws are unjust and ignoring the same courts, that once protected Warren's assets, rulings now are ignored as the faithful loot the LJ meeting hall. At best it is selective enforcement, if they rule in my favor the laws of the land are just, but if they rule against me, I will simply label it an unjust law I don't have to follow.

Polygamy being technically illegal, ignores the law and rejects any form of state oversight into outside policing. As it is a religious concept, it places not gods law, but what some believe is gods law, above the laws of the land. Since it has been made clear here that many will ignore civil authorities, issues of oversight to those of ignoring the state injunction paint a dire picture of how far one group will go to listen to Warren, above local, state or federal interest. It is the defiance of the law that pits the "P" word against the mainstream of society. Call it cohabitation and no one cares, as long as it is between consenting adults. It is in fact that under its religious label that fear and intimidation gets exercised. Since so many have made it clear, that a percieved gods law supercedes all other and with a clear and detailed list of underage unions, this law like the others will more than likely continue to be ignored, its simply statistics. So it leeds back to what has occured when self determination or self policing was permitted. Under the law, child protection was ignored and based on debates here, there is no reason to believe that with or without Warren much will change.

When young women have a mind of there own, the priesthood council will be impotent and that is why so many here, fear losing control of the female minors. Without reward, few men are willing to believe something they are not allowed to practise. While the LDS church and its members cleave to D & C 132, most are fuzzy on this practise in the after life, they have at some level accepted, what the FLDS have not.

Educated and free to chose, challenges the placement doctrine, so how about being honest about why that is important. Using "Sarah's Law" with girls over 18, will not be challenged by me, but I seriously doubt that any one still faithful wants to risk losing their daughters and to that end, like polygamy in of itself, breaking laws to maintain control is just S.O.P.

Anonymous said...

MIB Said: Our country is one of laws and its clear, some laws were not observed. In this blog I read that the law regarding polygamy was considered an unjust law, so breaking it was justified.

STREET's Reply: So was Rome a government of laws, and it got Christ crucified, and the martyrdom of his disciples. When the Hebrews in captivity refused to bow to the kings, it was because they considered those law unjust, so breaking it was justified. What say ye, MIB?

onthestreet said...


Anonymous said...

I even though I might be slanted toward the polygamy side,appreciate Jays posts.He has done his home work.I have a Conspiricy Theory for you M.I.B
The Ga. connection.
Scott Fisher named as a plaintiff,
currently resides in Ga.
In 2001 A wealthy man visted Uncle Truman Barlow,and was shown
around town in CC/Hilldale.This individual drove a Ford expolorer with Ga.state plates.
A conspiracy,a mystery?Who was this individual?Does Scott Fisher live with him.?

Anonymous said...

7:26 anon.Get a life!Your getting nutty as Street!!!

quiet canadian said...

gbnf I am sorry, no I havn't even seen either of the books mentioned. I was only inferring that books which are written by an outsider looking in cannot be used as factual evidence. I have seen some quotes from Krakauer's book and the Keep sweet book by Debbie Palmer and Dave Perrin. These quotes were sexually explicit and just made me sick. If any of the writers have factual evidence of wrong doing why don't they turn them over to the authorities.

GBNF said...

I have not read Debbie Palmer's book. Krakauer's book got explicit, but I believe his sources are accurate. It turned lights on for me, in relation to the beginning of the LDS church and it's progression.

Anonymous said...

I think MIBs posts are excellent because he has asked so many questions and has documentaiton of the answers. Having grown up at the Krik (Long Time Gone), we were taught to believe what we were told by the leaders. It was a sin to ask "Why"? or question any of the teachings. Proof or documentation was never needed for any teaching because nobody dared ask. If anyone would have asked to see the original UEP trust documents they would have been ripped-a-new-one by Bro Hammon on Sunday and branded as a faithless non-believer.

I thought U Ben's book was great. It had excellent historical information and it was easy for me to tell when his opinion overtook the dialogue. Some of his opinions I share because I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for Sam B. either. I've always had a healthy distrust of law enforcement thanks to him. Even when UBen was involved in The Work he was always questioning and recording answers.

I also thought Krakauer's book was well done. The man does his research and it was filled with excellent historical info. I even read how my great-great-great-great grandfather died. This guy spent a few years questioning, researching, and questioning some more.

If you want the truth then you have to question everthing; not in a belittling, confrontational, or beligerent way, but with persistence and determination. Every person should be allowed this freedom. Those who hide documentation and teach "Don't question your leader" or "don't ask why, just believe" have the most to lose when the answers come to light. It should still be legal to stone false prophets. Not only would it keep the riff-raff down, but it would be good, clean, wholesome entertainment for the whole family. With what Warboy has done, I can't think of a better way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

Men In Black said...

Well I have a great audio for you tonight. I just spent 2 hours listening to Warren trying to teach the teachers and parents of the Alta Academy. This is "Teacher's Priesthood History Class, Cain and Abel; Negro Race; Enoch November 15th 1994". I believe this may of been the one heard on NPR. He preaches the Negro's are the seed of Satan, representing evil on the earth. I dare say the NAACP would riot over what is the spoken word of God's $profit$ here.

Since this is or was the teacher's instruction, any government support was indirectly funding racist hatred. He tries to put it in a kind context that they were inferior and born into it, even before Cain sinned, but it was still very direct and extremely clear of his doctrine.

I can't wait to hear his take on Muslims, that one is likely a Homeland security risk or liability.

In search of truth, the spoken word of Warren Jeffs should stand on its own, it doesn't require my own opinion. Broadcast on NPR or other wireless media allows the public at large to accept this as religion alone or to follow the SPLC designation that the teachings implant both hatred and mistrust.

No doubt the question of cultures are radically different, but to accuse an entire race as being satan's representation on earth, is a tad bit over the line.

Anonymous said...

Angel of Morning,
Quiet Canadian, I have studied, read, and researched this topic, our people, in and out of the group, and have been personally involved as long (maybe longer) as Antique Mormon. Having personaly known many people in the FLDS from long before this particular Mormon Fundamentalist Group was calling itself that - I find it interesting that you put your post about the Keep Sweet, Children of Polygamy Book written by Dave Perrin and Debbie Palmer in the same category as Jon Krakauer's book - written by an outsider with no knowledge so it couldn't possibley be true. I knew of Debbie Palmer from the time her father joined the Polygamous group in 1957 and I have noticed a couple of nasty posts about her in another thread a couple of months ago. Debbie Palmer did not live anywhere but inside the your group from the time she was a baby until she left in 1988. And because I have had reason to access copies of the tapes of conferences - not just Uncle Roys Sermons, seen copies of all the letters, historical documents and other information she has filed, that date back for some years before 1957 and for many years after she left - she most defintiely knows what she is talking about. She doesn't try to pretend that she was ever perfect, the best wife, mother, sister, or Aunt there is ever. She admits to her mistakes and works hard to correct them. She admits to having attempted suicide and spending time in a hospital for depression. She also says that would give her own life if one thing she had ever been worried about might happen in the devolution of the FLDS and her family could be wrong. She has talked about the abuses, lack of access to education, freedom of choices, boys evicted, girls assigned to young -- even though she claims to understand that one, because she herself wanted to be married young too. But she realizes now just as Lorraine Johnson has said, that her request for early marriage was for the wrong reasons, but that she didn't, "force her father, to force the prophet, to force her first husband dying of luekemia to marry her." She did want to marry him but again SHE BELIEVED THE PROPHET UNCLE ROY - THE SAME ONE WINSTON BLACKMORE QUOTES - WHEN HE ANNOUNCED IN A MEETING SHE HAS A COPY OF THAT RAY BLACKMORE WOULD BE HEALED OF THE LUEKEMIA AND BE FULLY RESTORED TO HIS FULL HEALTH AND VIGOR --which I understand was considerable after listening to many of his very colorful talks as recorded on the tapes she sent me. And she is also very clear that just as you will find on Sharethelight and other sources - Uncle Roy admonished her to get her feelings in order so she could be obedient in case the "Lord had a different man in mind for her." I did contact her to see if she wanted to try to respond to the STORY OF TWO SISTERS on the website and after she read it even though she was rather distressed about the way that story was told in a few places she decided against it. I was aware from knowing her second husband personally and having had him visit in my home and discuss the gospel and his agonizing over the split in the priesthood work in 1979, 80, 81, 82 and on to ad nauseam -- that he was concerned about taking her as his fifth wife and I also knew from one of his other wives before Debbie Palmer was finally married to him -- that Debbie Palmer wasterrified to be married to him. She truly believed as many women of the day - who - if they would tell the truth would admit that if the prophet and their father asked them to take and assignment for a specific reason then you did it. (Since I decided she wouldn't suck my soul out just by talking to her she has confirmed this) The story of two sisters is amazing the way it make all men in our group sound helpless in the face of Debbie Pamer's soul destroying. female vampire abilities. I didn't realize that any woman could possibly be that powerful in our group. I've been bossed around by a few myself, and felt rather abused - I've seen women get pretty worked up -- and Debbie Palmer admitted to me herself that she still agonizes about how physically abusive she was with her oldest child (and more than a bit worked up and could send an echo off the mountain with a work crew of kids with the best of them - it is a relief to find out that men take the kid work crews out nowadays - women can be so harsh) -- but I have never seen or heard of ANY WOMAN IN ANY POLYGAMOUS GROUP WITH AS MUCH POWER AS DEBBIE PALMER IS CREDITED WITH IN THE STORY OF TWO SISTERS. And the way that tale says she took out her third husband -- no wonder people are terrified of her. If I didn't know the truth of what really happened with that part of the so called story I wouldn't let her near my dieing Grandfather let alone dare talk to her on the telephone! She told me that even though she knows, as Winston Blackmore has said, that thousands of people read everything he posts there, she did not feel she needed to go point by point over the accusations and respond to them - But that it made her very sad that neices, nephews, brothers, sister, stepchildren, and her hundreds of relative - most of whom have never laid eyes on her would have just that to know her by. I marvelled at that Story of Two Sisters though because even though Debbie Palmer has not always been my favorite person - and there have been times before I attempted to get to know her a bit in the last 5 years that I was sure she'd have horns, fangs, and have the twisted countenance of a hag. She doesn't. She definitely could loose some weight but she looks like a fifty year old Grandmother. She even admitted with some difficulty that Winston Blackmore was looking pretty good these days if he could help save anyone at all from the Warren Jeffs group -- and after she got to know some of the "lost boys and young women" in the states last summer she says she prays Winston will reach out to everyone of those kids that call him Uncle Wink and believe that Canada is a safe refuge. She promised to try to stay away from the media around the May long weekend since Winston said that had been a rather negative cycle of hers - one that she didn't mind trying to change one bit. But again I have to say -- about the Story of Two Sister - WOW - I CAN IMAGINE THAT THE ENTIRE FLDS MUST HEAVE A COLLECTIVE SIGH OF RELIEF TO HAVE BOTH JANE BLACKMORE AND DEBBIE PALMER OUT OF THERE. DEBBIE TRYING TO DISMANTLE THE ENTIRE FUNDAMENTALIST POLYGAMOUS MORMON WORK OF GOD SINGLE HANDEDLY AND JANE TEARING APART HER THRONE AS THE QUEEN OF ALL MORMONISM - AND THAT HAPPILY - MY GOD! I bet He (God that is )is even cringing hoping they don't die for fear they'll take on heaven (oR Hell) depending on if you can see inside their hearts and souls the way Christ can, or not) next. (Try to figure that convuloted sentence out Street) Powerful women - they should get into politics and maybe there would have been some Law Enforcement Officers standing by down here to protect some of the last few assets of the UEP on the very first day of that court order. It's a good thing we as people have never given women the priesthood. These two sisters might have been able to quell terroism and set the entire world straight by now. I know Debbie Palmer's first husband - the one according to our teachings she belongs to for "eternities" is Winston Blackmore's Father and they went to school in the private school as he says. I also know they were friends growing up or at least - being somewhat older than they were - I thought they were. It also occurs to me that Debbie Palmer and Winston Blackmore are saying pretty much the same thing when they talk about what their concerns are about what Warren Jeffs is doing the last 3 years. I can't influence such a thing and I haven't talked to Debbie Palmer for several months (she promised to send me a copy of the Keep Sweet, Children of Polygamy book in January - she takes forever to get things done)but maybe it's time for a Stepmother (Debbie Palmer) and a Stepson(Winston Blackmore) to talk and settle their differences - especially since he seemed truly despondent in the Story of Two Sisters that he had been deprived of knowing any of her 8 children. Since her oldest daughter is his little sister maybe he could be a true Uncle Wink for them and her children could get to know their one hundred cousins - or at least the ones their age. It is sad when children suffer when adults can't get along. I requested a copy of her Keep Sweet, Children of Polygamy book and haven't read it yet. If she'll send me the darn book I will read it and let all you others know if it is X rated or just a story with the guts to tell the truth about some of the things that happen to children all over the world - and has happened in spades in the Cook, Jessop, and apparently even in the Jeffs families. I have read Jon Krakauers Book and Chapter 3 is definitely a tough read - and I was shocked because I didn't know all said there. In some cases the real solid truth is known best between God, and the people who were there at the time. I will reserve judgement on Chapter 3 in the JOn Krakauer book until I read Keep Sweet - Oh wait - I'm not God, or Jesus Christ, or Warren Jeffs - so maybe I will just read it before I say it is full of lies, pray that if it did happen then -- and unfortunately I know of too many horrifying cases in the CC, Hildale, Salt Lake City, to not know there has been basis in fact for the time in history. I will pray as I always do that our people who were always supposed to be God's chosen people in the Last Days -- will make sure that there are no other children hurting for anyone to write about. So Quiet Canadian -- I know most blogger like short, snappy, stinging blogs but this one couldn't be. Before you decide to judge entire books by a few snippets someone - the media - your Father who hates all "apostates" -- maybe read it first. And most academics, scholars, historians, and even prophets would pray for an unbiased historian. Jon Krakauer comes as close to being that as anyone who has ever attempted to put pen to paper. He does not write ANYTHING with out doing exhaustive research. He will not take anyones word on anything without finding other sources (at least 3) to check for facts. And contrary to even worried Mormon Church leaders Jon Krakauer is not Anti-Mormon anything.There was a minor mistake in his labelling King laban in the Book of Mormon as some sheep herder - but if you are cross referencing King Laban in the book of Mormon and Try to find a provable historical character in the Old Testament Verion - even the Inspired Version of Joseph Smith You can't find that slippery KING. Too bad Joseph Smith didn't take a few minutes when he was writing that Inspired Version of the Bible and put King Laban in there in the right place - or take the references that polygamy should never be allowed to be lived in the America's out of the Book of Mormon. This blog wasn't supposed to be about religion -- but -- I guess that is what this entire site is about. Go figure. I challenge the cowpie buddy, and Quite Canadian to actually read these books - square them up against what you DO KNOW FOR SURE HAS HAPPENED IN OTHER SITUATIONS IF YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT THESE AND THEN BLOG AWAY ABOUT THEM BEING FABRICATED NONSENSE.
Too bad Debbie Palmer seems to have lost some of the whirlwind steam detailed in the Tale of Two Sister's or I'd have that darn book by now. I hope she gets on here an reads this so I don't have to spend two weeks trying to get ahold of her on the phone - she's impossible to catch on the phone too. Oh, and yes she does know Flora - just in case cowpie buddy or street of someother Flora hating person has made the connection - and thinks that have to start spewing hatred for Flora again. And she's 5 foot nothing and does drive and old suburban with all her ill gotten media grubbing ways. Some of you who hate her so much should meet her actually talk to her before you decide to go your next round about that. And Flora hasn't written a book.

Anonymous said...

Good grief. On the off chance that there might be a point you are trying to make, at least make your long blogs into a few paragraphs.

Just put some arbitrary line breaks in occasionally if thats the best you can do.

Men In Black said...

Flora hasn't written a book, but I have started one! You can't have Warren on 500 cassettes, have 2 dozen hard back books and a ton of other research and not consider the idea... I have trouble getting back to writing, but its started.

Most certainly we all know each other. The August 17th Press Conference in Zion National Park, next to the hotel and cafe put Debbie, Flora and I as the parties calling the event. Back then no one wanted to leed and instead of arguing who was in control, the opposite was true. To my dismay, I called the press conference, so I was forced to introduce and explain the days purpose. When you hate public speaking, the spotlight is far from your purpose for why to try!

From a researchers point of view, though I would not speak for Krakauer, the sexual abuse case prosecuted in Canada, offered more truth than Debbie's book alone. The case was investigated by RCMP Constable named Leanne and its the depositions that alway tell more.
As with the Mormon Wars in 1838, its what exist there in Senate Document 189 that tells two sides of any story. Witnesses to both sides make court statements of record and often in defending their slant or bias, admit parts of the crime, justified by circumstance. For this debate between Winston and Debbie, forget the book and if you represent the press FOIA the depositions and read both sides of what was claimed to have occured. While your at it Winston was widely quoted in the news, pull up copies of his actual quotes and judge him for what he stated was fact, match this to Debbie's book and you will of avoided rumor and hearsay. Statesment quoted in the press and sworn testimony go along way to seeking the truth and avoid these nasty games of misinformation.

I actual intended to update the contents of what Warren thought of Muslems. It was interesting listening, he actually likes them because they practised polygamy. He thought they were honorable, because after killing their enemies, they graciously took the wives and children on as their own, a subtle hint to any one who might war with the Warrenites, if Warren is the victor he will take your wife and kids asthough they were his own! What a comfort!

Today I think I will listen to; "Times of the Gentiles" July 25th 1995, any one here want to offer me a preview? Authorities need to listen to these audios to know and understand the man!

Men In Black said...

To be careful to offer support documentation to all the doubters, before debating the Mormon Wars of 1838, get a copy of the trial deposition and then we can discuss its contents.

Lets address this game of misinformation early on. As for Warren, I'll tell you what I am listening to and those still faithful who want to debate here, should listen to your cassette copy at the same time. Its been pretty one sided when only half here have heard Warren's spoken or written truths.

Quotes from the court documents

To buy a photo copy of Senate Document 189

Men In Black said...

In this blog the debate about "blood atonement" has continued, with both LDS and FLDS denying its teachings. Its all over Warren's cassette's and in the text copyrighted by Rulon Jeffs. In the early history of the church, which becomes the dividing line between mainstream and fundamentalist, the old doctrine is the point of debate.

Gentiles who have researched this period Krakauer included have the "Mountain Meadow Massacre" to contend with. West of what is now Cedar City, Utah and less than 100 miles from Colorado City is the site of a massacre whereby 40 to 50 pioneers and foefathers to this same region, slaughtered over 120 imigrants, following a similiar one man rule and blindly believing in the same faith we debate today.

We need not look to the wacked Lafferty Brothers, Ervil LeBarron or a few others that existed on the fringe, but rather the mainstream church within the same red desert landscape of Southern Utah. Men, women and children older than the age of innocense, age 8, were shot, blugeoned and killed by men just following orders.

When researchers with this history in detail hear of blind faith, we cringe, because we have read and studied what others have not. Saying it was never taught is a fairytale the modern church uses to distance itself from a truth that is more sickening than any book written on polygamy or its related sexual content. Why are so many so hard pressed to stamp out polygamy? Its not polygamy, that is a small aspect of a much darker doctrine and one historically that committed crimes, then tried to justify them on wrongs done to them 1500 miles do east, states away in a conflict in another time and place. The killings were justified and like Warren's cassette on Muslems, the mormons took the children of the slain victims to raise as their own.

Its the concept of the blind faith and a history of extremes that keeps the very real concerns alive.

Below is a history that all should read and research before denying the 120 plus graves or real people slaughtered because 50 men had sold their dignity, honor and free agency to the same religion we debate here today. Lest history repeats itself, how is blindly following Warren different than what was occuring in the very same areas 148 years ago. When a group reverences their forefathers, even those who participated in murders, it leaves gentiles always wondering what can occur under blind faith?

The doctrine of 'Blood Atonement' was also in effect during this time (1856-1857). The Blood Atonement Doctrine created an atmosphere of hysterical repentance. If any member of the Church had committed certain crimes that were unforgivable, the only way to exercise repentance was to voluntarily shed your own blood. The Saints were afraid because they knew that the Danites would see to it that Young's orders would be carried out.

Prior to the arrival of the emigrants, the Mormon leaders had been preaching the doctrine of Blood Atonement. John Doyle Lee, Brigham Young's adopted son and longtime intimate friend and military commander of the Mormon leader, stated:

"The Mormons nearly all, and I think every one of them in Utah, previous to the massacre at Mountain Meadows, believed in Blood Atonement. It was taught by the leaders and believed by the people that the Priesthood were inspired and could not give a wrong order. It was the belief of all that I ever heard talk of these things, and I have been with the Church since the dark days in Jackson County, that the authority that ordered a murder committed, was the only responsible party, that the man who did the killing was only an instrument, working by command of a superior, and hence could have no ill will against the person killed, but was only acting by authority and committed no wrong. In other words, if Brigham Young or any of his apostles, or any of the Priesthood, gave an order to a man, the act was the act of the one giving the order, and the man doing the act was only an instrument of the person commanding, just as much of an instrument as the knife that was used to cut the throat of the victim. This being the belief of all good Mormons it is easily understood why the orders of the Priesthood were so blindly obeyed by the people." (Confessions of John D. Lee, 1880 edition, pp. 279-280)

Another element that added to the hysteria at this time was a violent sermon preached by Brigham Young in which he said, "There is not a man or woman who violates the covenants made with their God in the Mormon temple, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out. Your own blood must atone for it, and the judgments of the almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man or woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants." (Journal of Discourses, vol. III p. 247)

This is found here;

Lest the apologist come in and deny the holocast, the government in 1859 investigated the slaughter, dug new graves where bodies litered the landscape and reported to congress;

Special Report on the
Mountain Meadow Massacre
Brevet Major J. H. Carleton, U.S.A.
May 25, 1859

Note: This typescript (prepared in December 1998) has been compared for accuracy with a typewritten transcription of the published House document Bracketed insertions in the text have been included for clarity, to note corrections in names, or to add complete names. The bracketed identification of the surviving children is a suggestion based on information on the memorial that was placed at Mountain Meadows in 1990.

57th Congress (House of Representatives) Document no. 605
1st Session.


Congress of the United States,

In the House of Representatives

May 10th, 1902

Resolves, that there be printed as a House document 5,000 copies of the Special Report of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, as compiled by J. H. Carleton, Brevet Major, United States Army, Captain First Dragoons.

The link to this report is here;

I lived close and visited the monument often. The church largely denied its participation, but changed stance after a University dig yielded facts about the method of the deaths, based on the examined skulls. No it was not done by indians, but rather the deeds of men who blindly were following their religion.

Debbie's book doesn't make me ill, though reading Brevet Major J. H. Carleton report does!

FLDS or LDS, before any one continues to lie to protect the faith, do the reading and be honest, then ask yourselves if as a gentile to this that you to would not share our concerns. Free agency and knowing right from wrong is escential. If your leaders say you should not feel your minds with this because it is too graphic, then it allows them to hide the truth from you.

Jays Fan said...

Earth to Jay!!!What the @#$%& does mountan meadows have to do with Warren and Colorado City?You've gone off on tangent Jay,get back to
the point of this blog.Tell us some about the U.E.P. lawsuit.
Jay's Fan

Men In Black said...

Mountain Meadow was justified under
"Blood Atonement" and in listening to Uncle Warren I am hearing a teaching that many here have denied! Since some think this is about stamping out polygamy, instead of abuse, the broader concerns of a blind faith need to be covered, in order for some to understand what can still occur today, with the same blind loyalty.

I do have a question though. After 2 more hours of Warren's sexy voice, the closing prayer in "Times of The Gentiles" was by Uncle Allen, would that be Steed? It was 1995. He elaborated on the distruction of apostates and gentiles, we being swept from the earth. Strange to think of the apostates as brothers, but in that being an apostate is worse than being a gentile activist, we are both Sons of "Satin", I guess that means dad or father is a sheet or blanket, if I followed that other post correctly.

I have heard all of this teaching before, the only difference with these latest cassettes is that they were intended as instruction for the teachers and parents. Its not hard to see Warren was sceming on the leadership position 10 years ago. Placing his father as the one who would pick a successor and controlling his father until the bitter end, put all controls in his own hands, long ago.

Per the end of the world in 2000 as he stated, he is 5 years and counting off the mark, along with changing states for the building of Zion.

One curious remark does speak of converting those in this country after the completion of the Temple. I bring this up only because I interviewed a woman in Georgia who claimed to be following a Jeffs spin off group in Tennessee. She knew to much about the FLDS and Texas, her group seemed interested in the Temple for ceremony purposes. With several apostates here who grew up in this faith, is it even remotely posible that Warren would recruit independents as more faithful than his own? I can't even fathom that this vague prophesy would permit others not born in this to enter that temple.

What say you that lived, what I only read about or listen to???

Men In Black said...

The next two hours will be "Necessity Of The Atonement" April 25th, 1995, instructions for Teachers. Can't wait to tell you what he believes in that regard. As some have implied that the dialog and proof can be fabricated, Warren's spoken words seem the perfect solution to meter out that seperation between fact and fiction. I don't hear many calling these audio's a lie! Is it posible for one who believes to deny the prophet? If the cock crows while someone types out a response, watch out!

All fooling aside, I was raised in the "Church of the Dawn" and it was my grandmothers home I met in, surrounded by aunts and uncles, cousins, etc. I actually know just a pinch of what it was like to be in a church that was also connected to family. The scripture and doctrine, is not that far off of dozens of others, just as passionate. Today however, if it defies science or logic, I personally refuse to offer up my free agency to any organized group. I am one of those registered Independents, that throws away my vote at each and every national election because I dispise a two party system of government.

Warren is actually a pretty good speaker and is well researched, though I disagree with his doctrine and conclusions. He's no slouch!

Jay's Fan said...

I knew it all along a Ga.Connection!!Tell us more about this woman in Ga.and a spinn off group in Tenn.I saw that guy with Truman,several years back.had Ga.plates on his Explorer.Is this Group of Flds Apostates pro-warren
or against warren?Tell us more Jay.

Anonymous said...

It is not a rumor,but a fact several Indepedent Fundamentalists
with close-blood relationships i;e
cousins,second cousins the
Jeffs Dynasty were contacted by David Allred last week.Several blogers have mentioned this.The question remains is Warren trying
to get in with the Naylor Group like he tried the LeBarons?

Men In Black said...

The woman needs to be anonymous for now, but lived near Orlando Florida. Her group according to a recorded interview was small, but had money from properties sold. They were preparing to merge with a group that already existed in Tennessee, that was always refered to as the Jeffs group. At a time when the Texas Temple had not yet been built, there was a knowledge that it was coming.

Another unrelated non profit refered this woman, which made it that much more odd. She did not know whom I was and as it was refered to me, another agency could of picked up this leed. It was all chance. In Florida the dresses were long, but colorful and she spoke of changes that were required to meet the Jeffs standards. A more conservative dress, changes in hair and grooming, variations in theology, along with tithing? Either this woman had well researched the topic or there was something very odd occuring.

The most important access was the proposed temple? Is there a endowment ceremony that has to occur in the temple? Then if there is, how did it work when the faithful only had the LJ meeting hall? If another group was allowed to enter the temple would they pay homage or tithing to get such an opportunity? In both the text and on cassette there is talk of converting the Laminites? or some other group from the 10 tribes, but is this a literal reference, is this temple to accomidate others?

It has been perplexing wondering how Warren can allow businesses to fail, to oust paying members, to liquidate assets and to spend assets like there was a means of replacing it. Unless he takes over El Dorado, there is a lack of business opprtunity there, unless he plans to get into construction in San Angelo. How will YFZ survive fiancially? Then this off the fall case appears, where a single source seems to be supporting a theory that an out reach existed? Would having a temple mean so much to independents that they would modify their belief to fit Warren's mold? Would Warren allow these to replace a people he has already ousted?

I assumed not, as did Winston when the same question was posed to him?

I am well aware of Joseph Zittings group and clusters of small groups now in Missouri, but none seem to be closely alligned with the Jeffs and they are not from Tennessee.

The Georgia connection does not relate to a known group, but plays another role, though it is just 2 hours from a location of interest in Tennessee.

Jays Fan said...

Thanks for the info.Jay you never
dissappoint,But any idea who the Guy with Ga.plates was?A wonder?at
least?Being so chummy with the Barlows?Does any one else remember
this incident?

Anonymous said...

Get a Life Jay's Fan!that dude was
a rancher,an LDS distant relative who married Pres.Mussers grand daughter.You are talking june 2001?

Jays Fan said...

Who was the guy?What about this tennesee splinter group Jay?You've
got my curiosity at an all time high.Flds splinter group in tennesee?How?Where?Why?Merging with
Warren?I too think this would be highly unlikely,Given Warrens Known
Paranoia,and the known splinter-groups,hatred for the Jeffs,both father and son.But does such a splinter-group/cult actually exist?
Please tell us more Mr.Beswick.And yes,that is the date June 2001.I wondered who that man was?He didn't
get the typical Goon-Squad welcome of Strangers,Any idea who this mysterious visitor was?He had Ga.licence plates.On a Ford Explorer?

Anonymous said...

FLDS splinter group in Tennesee?It seems impossible?But then an Flds Temple in Texas.seemed ridiculous just last year.Anyone know anything about this?Jay?Is it true?
If so how?

Men In Black said...

I believe the city was Chattanooga TN. The stated group in Florida was supposedly about 20, with the Tennesssee group slightly larger. With only one source for this, its hardly of any value. But this being a blog of former members, someone else might confirm or deny the posibility.

Anonymous said...

You boys got my curiosity up too!
I remember Some older people saying
there were "Maverick Polygs"never rounded up and branded by Barlow-Musser-Johnson and co.This family?or tribe?1912Was driven out along with
the other settlers,of the Mexican colonies,and upon viewing the Utah Living in Gommoroha etc.left for the south east,could it be descendants of this family or families,What were their names It was only one old man and his wives and childreninthat left presumably over disgreementabout something.Can the bunch in Tenneseebe and Florida decendants of this group?I would like to hear more a bout

Anonymous said...

"All my ex's are in Texas, That's why I'm in Tennesee"?

Men In Black said...

The last cassette listened to was not dated. It seemed to be about protection from evil (us of course). Warren details the work of Joseph Smith making corrections in the Bible between 1831 and 1833, since it was incorrect in its translation. There was stuff about drinking poison, but surviving because of prayer. A unique story of Warren's grandfather who as a missionary in the south was poisoned, and he could not lift the glass of milk as god had held his hand down making him powerless to the danger before him. I recall Rulon having a wife in Pasadena that he abandoned for his belief, but don't recall much of Rulon's father involved in the religion?

He got in to the evils of the LDS church and condemmed all Mormon text that was newer than 1979 citing the inclusion of blacks in the priesthood. Much better than the cassette I heard last night!

As he recognizes that the church is violating the law, historically and judicially these statements by him, could be allowed in court at some future court proceeding if allowed durring "discovery". He is not oblivious to the law, he simply believes his law is higher.

Men In Black said...

The distructions audio is xlint, its Tape #15 Dec. 18th & 19th 1996.
DC 87 WARS UPON THE NATIONS. This is where Russia attacks our East Coast, China our West Coast. The people of this land will want to kill the faithful for practising polygamy and the faithful will be protected.

You can see why the people fear and misunderstand those outside the belief. The wicked (us) will be swept from the land and any effort we have to help the same is met in fear that it is our intent to kill, not rescue. Its Warren's words, how else can a child interpret the prophets intent?

onthestreet said...

WOW! This thread's got so much manure in it, you can start a farm on a thread, or shall we say a shoe-string.

onthestreet said...

Anonymous said...
the problem is: it's like trying to sort through a cowpie to find something good.
6/5/2005 6:06 PM

STREET's Reply: Right, like I just said.

onthestreet said...

You all just as well post the Library of Congress. I think we have a filibuster here, which is good. Manure makes things grow, and hey, this is America. I'm glad everyone's enjoying themselves, and especially when I'm particularly quiet.

Anonymous said...

Not quite, I just got 6 audio tapesand the one titled "Reasons And Results Of The Apostay" August 1, 1995 rips other churches, especially those who are Catholic. Talk about persecution and defaming ones belief, Warren is an expert at it.

I intend to take my copy to the local Catholic church to critique Warren's version or slant of the truth. I will get back to you after two local priest give it a once over. I hope they forward it to the Pope. Abuses occur in both venue's, but criticize Warren and you are attacking the faithful. Warren's version is just clean hatred of all other churches. The analogy of the ROTTEN BRACHES being the churches to apostasy, the LDS church being the worst.

onthestreet said...

I gather that you're talking Warren tapes, yes? Warren doesn't say to hate, he merely points out the enemy, and to love thine enemy. So we love you Catholics, Protestants, Jew, Gentile, Rich, Poor, White, Black. Just don't expect us to love your corruptions and we're got em too. Christ didn't come to save the righteous, but the sinner, and to cast off all who fail to repent afar and near. That's all we do, cast off and repent, as best we can. Now whoever can do that are the faithful, agreed.

So take your copy, and get back with the Pope's blessing. We'd love to welcome him with open arms, if he can repent too. Then we are all repentant and candidates of heaven on earth and in heaven. Yes, branched DO rot, as Christ foretold, even saying that Satan will deceive THE WHOLE WORLD. Okay, Jesus lied. Talk about hatred. Accusing and hating what he himself has said is the hight of vengeance.

Say hi to the pope for us.

ATAR_i said...

Street 3

Men In Black said...

I take it you are ready to debate these audio tapes line by line? From the Rotten branches being ALL other churches, to the much denied "blood atonement" doctrine. We should get a new post or string, identify which cassette we plan to debate, then go at it. You with your copy, me with mine. The spoken word of God's mouth piece can not be altered, but most certainly defended.

Warren will reward your faith and loyalty, lets do this. Next best thing to hearing Warren is to hear and debate what he said and what was meant by it. At a time when he is evading justice defying a court ordered arrest warrant, he might not be so anxious to have his words broadcast, but you know him better than I.

I want to start with Tape 4A "Teacher's Priesthood History Class, Cain and Abel; Negro Race; Enoch" November 15th 1994. Tell me you have it and we can start a new string to discuss it in detail. Its the same tape or similiar to the one held by the SPLC thus they could join in if they so desire. Maybe we could take the suggestion of several and get the full language into text, to better define it word for word.

Yep! Warren's going to love you!


onthestreet said...

It's all been debated the past months. Maybe you've been too busy being most prolific. We can go on and on with a gnat, and swallow the camel, or you can review the posts. Every issue on his tapes and sermons have been covered, because scripture has been covered. Maybe you'd do well to unbury them.

onthestreet said...


I'm trying to create my own thread on my own, so I can edit my thread as needed. I emailed you about this over a week ago, but no response. So I posted my request on several threads. Still no response. Did you die, are you okay?

Now I know that you emailed me back, and this is what you said:

Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:11:03 -0500
From: "Texas Polygamy"
Contact Details
Subject: Re: STREET

Sorry, only admn...or users with admin authority can delete posts. There is no need to copy and paste old posts simply to keep them at the top. If they are old posts, let them cycle off to the archives.
Weblog Admin

ADMIN: I'm not trying to "keep posts on top. How vain is that? Just need to be able to edit my own thread, you see?

Now, I clicked on the red blog logo in the upper left corner of the blog page, and got the next page, but there was no green plus sign. So I need admin authority to edit my own thread, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. How about it?

Hey, maybe you don't read all the threads, I don't know. Tell you what: I'll post this request on all the threads, so you'll see it.

Thank you Sir.

Men In Black said...


Lets start with honesty, a rare item today.

Tell us how many wives and children you had within the belief or "work" and how this was determined. Babbling about scriptures "circling the wagons", claiming persecution or what have you is simply avoidance to simple truths. Start offering substance, you aren't converting any one and most here want to understand why and how this culture developed.

As for the cassettes, someone offered to transcribe and with the webmasters help, we may get an entire tape on line. Since you won't defend these audios line by line, we will let an audience of your peers decide on whether you and your prophet are honorable. I have to mail out the cassette, which would you recommend as best?


Anonymous said...

The May 31st 1996 Alta Academy Graduation, who was the Graduation Speaker, Was it Rulon or Fred?

Men In Black said...

I believe you would hear both Rulon Jeffs and Uncle Fred leading in a prayer amongst others. I believe it is Rulon, telling a cute poem called "You Tell on Yourself".


onthestreet said...


May God bless you forever with faithful children, as numerous as the stars of heaven.

Anonymous said...

6:53 Unreal............

rumor-has-it said...

May they be faithful to Our Father Jesus Christ and not just sheep people like OTS. And may you have to get a job to support them and not just live off of the work and sweat of the common man

onthestreet said...

Rumor, what you say is only rumor, false rumor. You see, Our Father is not Jesus Christ. God is our Father, and Jesus is his son. I thought you might enjoy this introduction, and not just be a sheep following every false doctrine.