Thursday, April 07, 2005

April 7th "Aftermath"

April 7th - Sheriff , Tax Assessor and Water Board enter YFZ ranch to complete tasks that were scheduled for April sixth but cancelled due to large media influx. No catastrophic event noted!

84 comments:

Anonymous said...

Of course. No activity on the outside but only YFZ heads know what what wen on inside.

Anonymous said...

you've got to be kiddin me

Anonymous said...

Well I heard it would be postponed until the weekend, from a reliable source in Canada, just kidding!

Actually I heard and read two pages of the likely synerio. It was distributed amongst a few to see how close the out come really is.

It goes like, someone will be ousted to take the blame, the masses will be told it was their fault the lift off did not occur and everyone should pay more for gods work. Its much more detailed, but you get the idea.

redraider said...

Hey Native Texan-
You seem like a pretty informed person. I have been impressed with your comments and humor. Would you ever consider being my sister...wife???

Obstructionist said...

Who is Native Texan? It can't be me, I'm atleast 1500 miles from Zion!

Native Texan said...

I am that Native Texan of whom you speak!

Redraider, your attention is very flattering, but unfortunately, I have been claimed by another and I can only handle one at a time!

Maybe you could be my sister-friend? That keeps things less complicated.

Seriously, your comments are keeping me in stitches over here, but there is so much wisdom in pointing the finger of blame at that dang Yoko Ono.

Man, keep those deep thoughts coming so we can all understand this mess!

PS: obstructionist, it's easy to see how one could confuse Texas with Zion, but let's not get too comfy calling it that!

Anonymous said...

The following comes from “The Skeptics Dictionary” by Robert Todd Carroll.

“Marian Keech was the leader of a UFO cult in the 1950s. She claimed to get messages from extraterrestrials, known as The Guardians, through automatic writing. Like the Heaven's Gate folks forty years later, Keech and her followers, known as The Seekers or The Brotherhood of the Seven Rays, were waiting to be picked up by flying saucers. In Keech's prophecy, her group of eleven was to be saved just before the earth was to be destroyed by a massive flood on December 21, 1954. When it became evident that there would be no flood and the Guardians weren't stopping by to pick them up, Keech
became elated. She said she'd just received a telepathic message from the Guardians saying that her group of believers had spread so much light with their unflagging faith that God had spared the world from the cataclysm (Levine 2003: 206).
More important, the Seekers didn't abandon her. Most became more devoted after the failed prophecy. (Only two left the cult when the world didn't end.) "Most disciples not only stayed but, having made that decision, were now even more convinced than before that Keech had been right all along....Being wrong turned them into true believers (ibid.)." Some people will go to bizarre lengths to avoid inconsistency between their cherished beliefs and the facts. But why do people interpret the same evidence in contrary ways?
The Seekers would not have waited for the flying saucer if they thought it might not come. So, when it didn't come, one would think that a competent thinker would have seen this as falsifying Keech's claim that it would come. However, the incompetent thinkers were rendered incompetent by their devotion to Keech. Their belief that a flying saucer would pick them up was based on faith, not evidence. Likewise, their belief that the failure of the prophesy shouldn't count against their belief was another act of faith. With this kind of irrational thinking, it may seem pointless to produce evidence to try to persuade people of the error of their ways. Their belief is not based on evidence, but on devotion to a person. That devotion can be so great that even the most despicable behavior by one's prophet can be rationalized. There are many examples of people so devoted to another that they will rationalize or ignore extreme mental and physical abuse by their cult leader (or spouse or boyfriend). If the basis for a person's belief is irrational faith grounded in devotion to a powerful personality, then the only option that person has when confronted with evidence that should undermine her faith would seem to be to continue to be irrational, unless her faith was not that strong to begin with"...
...It should also be remembered that in most cases people have not arrived at their irrational beliefs overnight. They have come to them over a period of time with gradually escalated commitments (ibid. chapter 7). Nobody would join a cult if the pitch were: "Follow me. Drink this poisoned-but-flavored water and commit suicide."

Anonymous said...

1:03 pm;I've been through what your talking about.I still have family members that refuse to even believe a Temple is being built and will not look at photos or other evidence.They claim it's all lies and i'm just trying their faith by suggesting such a thing.

Amy Walters said...

Hello, I'm a producer for National Public Radio. I'm working with NPR correspondent Wade Goodwyn on a story about polygamy in Texas and specifically the YFZ Ranch. To get a balanced story on the air it is very important that we speak to people from differing points of view. We will be in Texas on Monday and Tuesday of next week, the 11th and 12th of April. If you are interested in telling us about your experience and or point of view on polygamy and what is going on in the town of Eldorado on either of those days please e-mail either myself or Wade.



Amy Walters, Producer, NPR News

awalters@npr.org



Wade Goodwyn, Correspondent, NPR News

wgoodwyn@npr.org



Thanks!



If you want to know more about NPR please visit our website: www.npr.org

Anonymous said...

Ten bucks says Amy Walters finds our village idiot (and sign) soon as they hit town.

Anonymous said...

Strange thing. The kook with the sign never shows up until the cameras do.

Anonymous said...

Here is another then that says she finds she finds Sheriff Doran and he tells her everything is under control.

Anonymous said...

OMG! I'm dying here! There's a picture of a guy on the front page of the Success wearing a grim reaper costume standing in front of the temple on April 6. ROFLMAO!

Anonymous said...

4:04

That's Jim. What can I say. He can find humor in anything. Keeps people from taking the compound (and life)too seriously. Wait till " Running of the Bull". He will be in exquisite form!

amy said...

I missrepresnted myself I think - there are actully no camera - just a little microphone - that's radio for you and the story isn't really about polygamy - I got distaracted by the blog topic - it's more about Eldorado - what's happened in this little town since the FLDS folks moved in. Do you not believee the sherrif that everything is fine? Do any of you guys ever see these people? Where do you think we would be most likely to find them? Gorcery store? post office? Any thoughts.

We're nice I swear and I don't think we'll be too much trouble.

Anonymous said...

You can find them in Colorado City, for sure! Just drive through town, and they will find you!

Anonymous said...

If you come to CC, stop in and see the Superintendent of Schools. He will bore you to tears!

Anonymous said...

You radio people....please post on this blog when your report will air. We will all be interested.

Anonymous said...

For us not familiar with your local customs and celebrations......

What is the "Running of the Bull"?

Anonymous said...

"Running of the Bull" is a liars contest! Warren will win for sure!!

Anonymous said...

Running of the Bull is a festival we have each summer. It is timed to roughly coincide with the Running of the Bulls in Spain. Eldorado's version is Bull (singular) and refers to the fact that it is a two-day liars contest with a festival built around it.

The townspeople just finished their Elgoatarod festival. It is a send up of the Iditatod race in Alaska, only in Eldorado they race carts pulled by goats. Again, it is a reason to have a festival.

These Texans seem to have been born looking for a way to have fun.

Anonymous said...

I just visited the compound (from above). Everything is normal. Two women in pretty blue dresses were working in the garden.

A small child in a pink dress with white petty-coat and a little bonnet was sitting near watching. Everything is calm and peaceful.

Anonymous said...

Heard in Short Creek today that men are having trouble cutting enough stone for the temple. Warren had a revelation that the destructions can't start until the temple is finished and his people are lifted up.
You Texans keep a close eye on how things are going with the stone. When the stone work is finished, the temple will be dedicated. Then Warren's people will be called in for a gathering. So the destructions can begin.
The apostates should be the first ones to worry. They are supposed to be blood attoned as soon as the temple is finished.

Anonymous said...

amy
The Sheriff has been on the ranch approx. 10 times, has made two trips to Colorado City / Hildale and has kept in contact with several different groups (activist, law enforcement, those on the inside and those no longer in but still in contact. This helps to create a neutral stance just as Law Enforcement should have. Washington County Sheriff states (according to early edition of the Eldorado Success)that no other Law officer has been able to build bridges with this group like the Texas Sheriff has. I feel with this type of networking going on , it will assist in reuniting families that have lost contact with each other just as he already has demonstrated. Of course your negative minded people are not going to see this and take stabs were they can, bring him to Utah we could use him!

Anonymous said...

Now you're scaring me.

Anonymous said...

That "blood atonement" is scary stuff.

Anonymous said...

Somebody schould keep a list of who is "in" and who is "out", and where they are at.

Anonymous said...

There is now way they are running out of stone. The compound itself is on a rock ledge. Our County courthouse was built with native stone quarried near the railroad track. The compound's quarry is three times the size of the courthouse quarry.

As for the sheriff, he has done an excellent job of protecting the civil rights of the polygamist. We do not want another Waco.

The psychological profile of both the followers and the leader are identical to Jim Jones and company. The recipe for disaster is there. What is needed is a catalyst. Religions (especially cults led by charismatic leaders) evolve into something they were not in the beginning. Both Jim Jones and the Davidians had crisis intervention programs to keep people from committing suicide and show the lost to paths of righteousness. What brought the downfall of both sects were ego manic ( holier than thou) law enforcement officers determined to show who had the most fire power.

That was the catalyst. Nothing left to loose for the cults.

Our sheriff is trying to make sure there is no catalyst. A clear line of communication combined with level headed thinking (not religious bigotry), is what every law enforcement officer has to do by duty.

The Pilot

Anonymous said...

Sheriff Doran is doing a fine job in these circumstances. From a legal perspective an elected sheriff has to provide for the health, safety and welfare of all within his county. The complexity is that polygamy is illegal under the federal statute, but unenforced at the state level. This is true elsewhere than Texas and the local courts or county prosecutors know that such enforcement would be challenged. Polygamy, bigamy and cohabitation laws tend to be loosely defined and historically seldom enforced.

To the general public, victims and advocates, the desire to merely enforce the existing law becomes a frustration. The winable solution is abuses seperated from the religious act and where underage minors are involved, the will of the law will be challenged.

Proving these unions illegal and underage are no doubt a challenge, but the will of law enforcement has to be as determined as John Dougherty has been in his 23 indepth stories for the New Times in Phoenix. Documenting those unions under age between female minors and the prophet in Warren Jeffs, in Johns documentation included birth records which were literally published. Between the will to enforce the law and the tollerance to permit violations is a line in the sand that ultimately will be determined by voting constituents. No one recommends violation of the law and in the history of activist, in my case I am 56 months into the child abuse issue and I, we, have not resorted to suggesting violence to hold a pedophile ring accountable.

To strong a language? Not really, the attorney so willing to lie for his client threatened me in writing in March of 2001. I was reporting child abuse and had a client. I was not a private citizen as such, but the Tri-State Representative of FOR KIDS SAKE and reporting abuses compelled by my position. Utah and Arizona were my states, but the FLDS attorneys attempted to use intimidation to quiet not my complaints, but to prevent me from doing my job.

As I attempted to pay taxes for my client to the UEP twise, both checks were returned by Snow, Christensen & Martineau with responses on their letterhead, the same letterhead which threatened me in March of 2001. In the press this same attorney was quoted as stating my client had made no attempt to pay taxes. As there was no checking account and as the trustee in Truman Barlow wanted such taxes in cash, my Zion bank Utah checks were returned and refused. While these attorneys can offer credible quotes, they are also credible liars and have generated the paper trail to prove it. In the end is it the FLDS or Warren that has facilitated the crimes of child abuse or a series of attorneys that have enable this pedophile ring to continue? At $200. plus an hour you can buy someones legal opinion. With permission of this group I would like to publish the FLDS attorneys letter of August 21st 2003 to the Utah attorney general. What you'll find is that the FLDS attorneys do not defend their clients innocence, but rather in a letter to the Utah AG defended their guilt!

A close look for the press who follows this blog, look at the bio of Martineau of the firm and I think his place of birth offers a clue for why they are so anxious to defend the FLDS and polygamy, its all on the internet for anyone who knows how to find it;

Reed L. Martineau (Shareholder) born Colonia Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico,
April 13, 1932; admitted to bar, 1961, Utah. Education: Brigham Young
University (B.S., 1955); University of Utah (J.D., 1961). Commissioner,
National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws, 1989—.
Member: Salt Lake County (President, 1970-1971) and American (House of
Delegates, 1988-1996) Bar Associations; Utah State Bar (Bar Commission,
1981-1996; President, 1987-1988); American Law Institute; Western
States Bar Conference (Vice President, 2000-2001; President,
2001-2002); Jackrabbit Bar Association (Chancellor, 1995-1996).
Languages: Spanish. Practice Areas: Corporate Law; Finance; Real
Estate; Commercial Litigation.

Men In Black MIB

Anonymous said...

Lest Rodney not get a long enough quote in the newspaper, his letter to the Utah Attorney General begs to be read again! In America the concept of law and lawyers is to defend your client believing them to be innocent. The reason this is important is that in their defense, in a court of law and infront of a judge, the attorney (wink, wink!) is not to supposed to lie. The belief over knowing seperates the ethical question. But when you read the below, do you think that the attorneys know whether their clients are guilty as claimed?

LAW OFFICES
> SNOW, CHRISTENSEN & MARTINEAU
> A PROFESSIONAL CORPORATION
> 10 EXCHANGE PLACE, ELEVENTH FLOOR
> POST OFFICE BOX 45000
> SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 85145-5000
> TELEPHONE (801)521-9000
> FACSIMILE (801)363-0400
> HTTP://WWW.SCMLAW.COM
>
> Rodney R. Parker
>
> August 21, 2003
>
>
> By Hand Delivery
>
> MARK SHURTLEFF
> UTAH ATTORNEY GENERAL
> 236 STATE CAPITOL
> SALT LAKE CITY UT 84114-0810
>
>
> Dear Mr. Shurtleff:
>
> As you probably know, I represent the FLDS church, the
> UEP trust, and many members of the communities of
> Hildale, Utah, Colorado City, Arizona, and Bountiful,
> British Columbia. I am writing this letter with the
> permission of my clients but not at their request. The
> views I am expressing are my own, formed over the
> course of my work for the church and its members
> during the past 12 years.
>
MIB

Apparently this format will not allow me to cut and paste the letter. If it allows this much I will be lucky. If you want the entire letter let me know and I will arrange something

Anonymous said...

You certainly have my permission to post the letter.Are their any nays?

C.C.

ex creeker said...

To the pilot<
The Sheriff is smart to “keep in touch”. I hope that he expands his contacts at the ranch when it is possible. Remember Allen and Ernie? They where gone in a second. I know as soon as the Sheriff left the compound, they are gloating to each other how they have “pulled the wool over his eyes”. I have worked with Merrill Jessop, and know that he enjoys the art of deceiving someone. Warren has surrounded himself with this type of character. Also the report was that they could not “cut” the stone fast enough to meet the deadline. I personally don’t think Warren would “Yearn For Zion” for years, then destroy his Zion on its completion. He is going to have many talks with God now. Remember that it is the wicked that will be destroyed, not the chosen. Good luck Texans, I think this will go on for quite some time.

MIB I would like to read the letter.

Anonymous said...

I can send it to an email address or we may have to get the webmaster to post it. The format was rejected and I cut and pasted it from when I got it nearly 2 years ago. I've got 10,000 related emails retained, there's little I don't know of this issue.
I'm at patches@as.net give me an email and I will send a copy.
MIB

Anonymous said...

Web master,Would you get a copy of MIB's letter and post it here for us to read.Giveing out our E-mail addresses probably wouln't be a wise move at this time.
Just me. ;0)

weblog administrator said...

posted by request

LAW OFFICES
SNOW, CHRISTENSEN & MARTINEAU
A PROFESSIONAL CORPORATION

10 EXCHANGE PLACE, ELEVENTH FLOOR
POST OFFICE BOX 45000
SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH 85145-5000
TELEPHONE (801)521-9000
FACSIMILE (801)363-0400
HTTP://WWW.SCMLAW.COM

Rodney R. Parker

August 21, 2003


By Hand Delivery

MARK SHURTLEFF
UTAH ATTORNEY GENERAL
236 STATE CAPITOL
SALT LAKE CITY UT 84114-0810


Dear Mr. Shurtleff:

As you probably know, I represent the FLDS church, the UEP trust, and many members of the communities of
Hildale, Utah, Colorado City, Arizona, and Bountiful, British Columbia. I am writing this letter with the permission of my clients but not at their request. The
views I am expressing are my own, formed over the course of my work for the church and its members
during the past 12 years.

I have followed news reports of the "Polygamy Summit" involving you and representatives of law enforcement
in Arizona and British Columbia. I find this "Summit" to be an unfortunate demonstration of the flawed approach government has taken toward polygamy issues for many years. A true summit would include members of the plural culture, and would be an effort to build bridges and mutual respect between government and that culture. A summit that includes only law nforcement, Tapestry, and similar parties simply reinforces the mistrust and fear that has been the hallmark of the State's relationship with the polygamists for the past
100 years.

I have found members of the FLDS church to be law abiding, patriotic citizens of their respective communities. They care about their families and children. They want their children to grow up in a
better world. They want their children to be educated and to exercise their free agency. Most people who have taken the time to understand the FLDS culture recognize that those statements are true.

Many of the suppositions I have seen come from your office are based on acceptance of false information
and a failure to understand the FLDS community as a distinct culture. For example, at least in the organized plural culture of the FLDS Church, young women are not "forced" into marriage. They enter those relationships voluntarily with the consent of their parents and the support of extended family. Men
do not ask to be placed in marriage; only women are permitted to do so. Although their model of marriage
by revelation runs counter to traditional notions of romantic love and marriage, the model works for them because they have confidence in it. For every woman who chooses to leave the culture, there are literally dozens who are happy and content with their marriages. On the whole, there are fewer disrupted marriages and relationships in the plural culture than in mainstream
society and most women in plural families do not believe they need to be "rescued." They do not feel that they lack choices. They do not want their life decisions made for them by others and they do not believe that the Attorney General knows more about their best interests than they do.

Members of the FLDS community are sincerely and deeply religious, and this is where I think the State has
been inappropriately judgmental and has failed to understand the culture. Individuals who are raised in or later choose to become members of the FLDS Church are not interested in sexual gratification, money, or power. They practice a plural lifestyle because they sincerely believe God requires it of them. They cannot compromise by surrendering the management of
their religious practice to the State. Indeed, the present polygamist movement is a result of the compromise that was made in order to obtain statehood and to save the LDS Church from being destroyed by the federal government. Because rejection of that compromise is the foundation of the fundamentalist movement, it is not realistic to expect that another compromise can be achieved.

Perhaps the summit is an implicit acknowledgement that further compromise cannot be achieved. It is natural for government to respond with a show of force to a refusal to compromise. But a show of force cannot achieve the government's stated goals in this instance. Instead, it can only reinforce the
polygamists' beliefs by giving them another test to survive. Even if your office were to successfully
prosecute the leadership, the practices would not stop. They would simply become more difficult to
detect. In the eyes of the fundamentalist, the State
would be vilified and the leadership would be exalted for meeting and surviving the test. This would not be an improvement of the situation.

Such a course of action has the potential to inflict tremendous suffering on completely innocent members of the culture, foremost the children. We are already seeing an increase in overt displays of hostility against fundamentalists in St. George. The State's actions are sending the message that such individual persecution and bigotry directed at fundamentalists is
acceptable. Comments attributed to you in the press that dealing with the community is "like dealing with
the devil," or that the entire police force should be decertified because of their beliefs, are
inappropriate coming from a public official and are feeding that wave of prejudice.

When the Legislature created the position of "polygamy czar," it made a fundamental mistake. That position
was billed as a way to investigate "closed" societies, which is euphemism for the polygamist culture. Instead, the creation of that position has only served
to make the culture less transparent than it was before. Polygamists now have a renewed fear of the government. When I first got to know them, the younger generations had grown up without direct memory
of the 1953 raid, or of the fear that had resulted in a generation raised without birth certificates and driver's licenses. As a result, they were more comfortable in acknowledging their lifestyle and made little effort to hide it. I must report, however, that the present climate is alienating a new, and much larger, generation of youth in the communities, and the level of openness that existed a few years ago has vanished. It may very well be another 50 years before there is another opportunity to build mutual respect between the polygamist society and the government.

I would encourage you to redefine your goals as they relate to the polygamists. Ending the practice of
polygamy is obviously not a realistic goal, as you have acknowledged in public statements. I would submit that any solution that requires the fundamentalists to compromise on the subject of
marriage cannot succeed because of their fierce religious beliefs prevent it.

Thus using brute force to extract concessions from the culture on the subject of marriage is doomed to fail, and in the process to further isolate, marginalize, and "close" the plural culture. That, in turn, will only exacerbate the sociological, welfare, and barter
economy issues that you have identified in prior remarks. Breeding a lack of respect for the law in the youth of the plural culture will ultimately be counter productive, and will not solve these problems.

It seems to me that a more appropriate, and more realistic, goal would be to ensure that choice is exercised in marriage and that abuse is reported and prevented. To achieve those goals, it is necessary to erase the mutual mistrust that exists between the State and members of the plural culture, which in turn
requires some level of recognition that members have a right to exercise their religious beliefs. If
individuals and families feel free to disclose their relationships to State representatives without fear of prosecution or other reprisal, then real progress can be made in terms of achieving a level of transparency that would further the State's goals. Those goals cannot be achieved on the current path. It is a solution that would probably require the Legislature's involvement but I would urge you to consider such non-traditional options as you attempt to formulate a workable policy for achieving the State's goals.

Perhaps it is simply impossible for you, because of your duties as Attorney General, to address the
problem in the way I am suggesting. Cultural sensitivity may be more for the sociologists than for law enforcement. But we have a very real opportunity to change the situation for the new generation growing
up in the plural culture. I see that opportunity being sacrificed on the altar of politics. While the very vocal voices against the plural culture deserve respect as well, they do not accept that the plural
culture is here to stay, and thus they do not offer a realistic long-term way to seal with the issue.

I believe that as a result of my experience I have more legitimate and accurate information about the
FLDS culture than perhaps any other outsider in the State of Utah. I hope that you will consider my
comments as you approach this issue, and that future "summits" will be structured to build respect, rather
than animosity, between the plural culture and the State.

Very truly yours,


Rodney R. Parker

Anonymous said...

I have several such interesting letters from government agencies, the one from the FBI was the most interesting, but I'm more afraid of them, that I am of Warren, so I think I better sit on that one awhile.

The Threat letter Ben Bistline recieved might also be interesting.

In January 2004 at the time of the Ross Chatwin Press Conference there were 3 or 4 letters circulating. The authenticity of the theology letters were questionable, but the letter to Benny had more of a flair toward the influence of someone loyal to Warren.

Depending on what is permitted here, I would be more than happy to forward these documents for others to review.

When I read the live and let live stuff, I know that we all are armed with different facts and that shapes our reality. I have the FLDS books that explain the reassignment of wives, but would hate to have to retype those pages to display their content. Reading the words of the prophet and shared here, would atleast give readers reasons some activist are rigid in their views.

MIB

Anonymous said...

So I have difficulty seeing the problem with Parker's letter. The fact is that the pressure really is causing us to hide more. Even those of us who disagree with Warren are busy fighting a battle on all sides trying to keep our families intact and safe. It gets to be a lot to juggle with Warren on one side trying to slice through your family and the law and popular opinion on the other side trying to do the same thing. They might have their different reasons or at least different excuses, but the result is the same. I remember my grandpa talking about the days of "hiding" and I thought I'd never see it, but it's starting to look real good about now.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for shareing the letter from Rod Parker,MIB.I for One would like to read the other 4 letters but don,t dare give out my e-mail address.I for one,can read Uncle Warrens books my self but other than on this blog, I won't be able to read those other letters.
Thanks,anonymous.

Anonymous said...

Then you need to rethink the issue. You can't hide as there are those that can track you. The reality which the AG's have stated over and over and over again, is that they won't in of itself prosecute polygamy. If however other laws are violated they WILL bundle crimes for prosecution. If you are guilty of other abuses, then run you must. Otherwise they don't plan to break up families. They do suggest oversight is needed!

If those in the "work" will abide by the law and stop the forced underage marriages and do not engage in "bleeding the beast", then you are not under threat. Its pretty basic, if there is paranoia beyond this, it is either a threat Warren has used to keep the faithful together or there is more to hide.

We can talk further of Truman Barlow or William Black, there are secrets that don't need an audience. When Mohave Minerals building burned, what did you believe was there? I would love an honest discussion and child brides might be the least of what concerns me. The faithful knew of many issues, but reported none.

Even second ward has issues that could be addressed. There is a paper trail of known abuses that has largely gone unaddressed, but I am willing to name names and identify actual cases, but so far I have no takers. 5 years ago this was only about Nichole Holm-Knudson for me, but a lack of government interest forced a very deep investigation of everything that has occured in Colorado City and Hildale.

I have the 150 page deposition of Rulon Jeffs from 1989 where he discusses the financial interest of the FLDS, of Majestic Trust and whom was permitted to know of issue of money. I assure you I could debate Parker into the ground, he is not the expert, nor am I the best. If hiding was important, there is no place worth hiding. The Roundy Ranch in Idaho or the Harker ranch near Beryl Junction are all mapped and geneogram show the family tree's. Its not about tracking the faithful down, but rather creating oversight for the future.

We can shadow box or I can tell you how much is really known. Just ask your former Bishop in Canada, I think he knows how much outside agencies know and is no less than brilliant in inviting all to his conference on April 19th. He's not hiding and if you are not an abuser, you should not be either.

MIB

Anonymous said...

I have to agree, with Rodney parker. I believe in my religion. I do not believe in killing. I do not believe a person who kills or kills themself, will ever go to heaven. I do believe in celestial, marriage. If there is a Waco, it will be because the Government kills us. I believe if this was to accure, and I was murdered in cold blood, because of my religion. I would be in the heavens with Jesus. The ones who participated in this evil, would be forever in hell. If, I was jailed, I still would believe in celestial marriage. If I stayed in jail to the end of my days, I still would believe in celestial marriage. would you quit believeing what you do, if you were harrased, or jailed? Would you give up your God? I will not!

Anonymous said...

How come Rodney Parker asked to be released from representing the FLDS?

Who is your God? Warren Jeffs or Jesus Christ?

What happened to Uncle Roy and teach nothing but repentance. Lets go down the road together?

Are the once Living Scriptures now seriously Dead books to you as Warren has proclaimed?

Warren complains that people are using the words of the prohpets against him. well of course they are because they were prophets!

But then you are not old enough to remember Uncle Roy are you? I do. He would hold up the 3 in one and would profoundly proclaim that everything we needed for our salvation was in that book. Everything! He said that if anyone, himself included said anything that did not square up with that book then it was not of God.

If you don't believe this then ask the people old enough to remember.

That was back when covenants meant something. We did not believe in divorce then. We did not believe in the swapping or bastardizing of families then either. The organized adultery.

You want to believe in Warren,.that is fine. It is your God given right. Is the truth more important than a man? Just remember there are consequences for every choice you make.

I hope and pray that which ever choice you make that you will be happy with because you will not be able to change the past once the choice is made.

P.S. As long as there is life there is hope. Uncle Roy taught us that too. I like the God Uncle Roy thought us about. Maybe you have heard of him. He is the one with UNCONDITIONAL Love.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:12AM

AMEN AND AMEN. I remember Uncle Roy's teachings and they were pleasant. I have a little experience under my belt and can truly say that Uncle Roy taught very little that isn't taught by LDS or even some other Christian religions. The doctrine is Mormon for sure, but he truly taught that God is love, and that God loves, and he did stress unconditional love, and he lived the same way. He never turned away someone that needed help, and often times went without so that others could get what they needed.

Anonymous said...

I also, lived in Uncle Roy's day. He tought exsactly, what Warren Jeffs teaches. Jack Cooke was arrested. His family was given to another. Why? Because, he molested his children. Uncle Roy tought to love, and go down the road together. Did you do this? Did you forgive your brother? A women and children, do not have to stay with an abusive man? Or women, for that matter.

Anonymous said...

Rodney Parker has not quit taking FLDS money, so I wouldn't exactly say he was released. He was in court with Judge Walter Steed in March. On February 7th and the 24th Parker was in court with Rodney Holm. I think Parker is still representing FLDS interest, but does not represent Warren personally. A legal note is that had he been retained to represent Warren, the attorney in Suder or Hoole could have served Warren through his attorney.

Maybe Warren is just dumb like a fox and is playing the system, with Parker a willing and paid player. Its true Warren has deviated from the lawyers advise, but an audit of Snow, Christensen & Martineau might speak otherwise to the idea that Parker has completely abandoned the group.

Regarding Uncle Roy his books volumes 1 to 6 do present a more moderate approach to the faith. When I first stuck my nose into this, I spoke at length to Cyril Bradshaw and before the meeting hall was built there were loose meetings and simple exchanges. It was as he discribed it, more of a utopian society. A man did not take more wives than he could aford.

As an outsider I can read the text of 3 or 7 connected wives, but I am aware of those that have taken more! Its not scriptural. If it was devine and of God, all girls would be equal. But be honest, Warren doesn't want to get stuck with a skrig. He choses the prettiest for himself and this is a law of man (lust), not of god or scripture.

If the scriptures are being used against him, much of these were more his text than his fathers. Other than "In Light and Truth" published in 1994, most of the newer text was published in 1997 when Uncle Rulon was already experiencing health issues. The cassette's that Warren produced between 1996 to 1998 are reflected in books that bare Rulon as author, but at a time and in words that more reflect Warren's teachings. I believe he is a contradiction unto himself!

For Colorado City and Hildale this is a new time. Warren has in effect gutted the economy and rebuilding this becomes an issue as important as anything else. Inspite of what the faithful think of me, the oustings in January forced several to rethink the equation. On Tuesday January 20th of 2004 Ross Chatwin called me to be the Architect of his press conference only 3 days away. By the 23rd security was leveraged, the press invited and a variety of other events had to be put in place, all in 72 hours. This event forced a review of whom could be seen as a victim, was it to be only girls, only children? To find common ground it had to be men disenfranchised, entire families and those who suffered an abuse of power, while they still believed in the "work". If you read the Spectrum what occured after the press conference was in fighting between activist who thought it could only be one way.

Clearly victims of abuse include men who have lost families, had their wives and children reassigned and homes taken, jobs lost and the list goes on. Activist concerned with more than child brides are still involved today. I had said I would help former mayor Dan Barlow, inspite of his public quote to the St. George Spectrum that I "drink my own bath water"! Addressing his victimization can be common ground, though if he has misused public assistance funds, that act is seperate from what can be offered in help. We are each responsible not only to our faith, but also to being truthful.

An issue I want to tackle is the economy of Hildale and Colorado City, where believe it or not, I have friends and that will be the challenge in 2005.

As I have stated, no one is lining up to rip families apart. The question of a lack of oversight that occured with Warren, is the issue with state government that is trying to address this, this does not require a "circling of the wagons" to fend off state interest and intervention. Polygamy and over 18, in the society outside, it is cohabitation and between consenting adults, no matter how it gets labeled. Inviting oversight and reporting known abuses is the begining of starting over.

Halloween night of 2002, a boy from first ward was driving a truck in Centennial Park and tried to impress a girl, he hit her with his vehicle. She got a concusion and was life flighted later that night to SLC to a hospital. We know who the boy was, we know he had no drivers license, we know who the girl was and we actually got a written statement that we were unable to use do to the witnesses age. When checking the police blotter, no one had turned in a report. 2nd ward suggested God would solve the problem, first ward had nothing to add. This is not an example of why self regulation is deserved and I can in detail name 2 dozen such events. The reason the school board needs to be ousted, along with the police force is unequal protection and enforcement of laws and policies. Circumstances that really occured in Colorado City and that region went unreported because of a lack of oversight, one that a real city would have had to report to the county or state, but in Hildale and Colorado City everything is contained.

If the excuse is we did not know, then there is that much more reason that oversight is needed.

With Lenore Holm, Mike Watkiss with News 3 TV tried to extricate Nichole while still a juvenile from Wynn Jessops home, but was blocked and threatened with arrest. The police report that placed Nichole as staying with Mary Harker was a known lie, thus the credibility issues raised today. When Police Chief Sam Roundy was interviewed in 2001 he said "none of my officers have underaged brides", then Rodney tried to sue for custody in two states, this before the state tried to prosecute him.

When the Attorney General investigators approached Warren's home only to be met by a armed non commission militia playing cops, the example of a public threat was fully met. These are more reasons that self determination is not earned or an entitlement. Non police officers cant stop citizens on the street armed and prepared to shoot just because you don't like them driving down one of your streets.

Rebuild and restructure yes, but no oversight is not acceptable given a long and detailed history that has only been partly covered in the news. Having a mixed population and private property ownership in Colorado City might expode the cultural myths, along with infusing new monies into the local economy, hows that for SCARY!

MIB

Anonymous said...

Rodney Parker has not quit taking FLDS money, so I wouldn't exactly say he was released. He was in court with Judge Walter Steed in March. On February 7th and the 24th Parker was in court with Rodney Holm. I think Parker is still representing FLDS interest, but does not represent Warren personally. A legal note is that had he been retained to represent Warren, the attorney in Suder or Hoole could have served Warren through his attorney.

Maybe Warren is just dumb like a fox and is playing the system, with Parker a willing and paid player. Its true Warren has deviated from the lawyers advise, but an audit of Snow, Christensen & Martineau might speak otherwise to the idea that Parker has completely abandoned the group.

Regarding Uncle Roy his books volumes 1 to 6 do present a more moderate approach to the faith. When I first stuck my nose into this, I spoke at length to Cyril Bradshaw and before the meeting hall was built there were loose meetings and simple exchanges. It was as he discribed it, more of a utopian society. A man did not take more wives than he could aford.

As an outsider I can read the text of 3 or 7 connected wives, but I am aware of those that have taken more! Its not scriptural. If it was devine and of God, all girls would be equal. But be honest, Warren doesn't want to get stuck with a skrig. He choses the prettiest for himself and this is a law of man (lust), not of god or scripture.

If the scriptures are being used against him, much of these were more his text than his fathers. Other than "In Light and Truth" published in 1994, most of the newer text was published in 1997 when Uncle Rulon was already experiencing health issues. The cassette's that Warren produced between 1996 to 1998 are reflected in books that bare Rulon as author, but at a time and in words that more reflect Warren's teachings. I believe he is a contradiction unto himself!

For Colorado City and Hildale this is a new time. Warren has in effect gutted the economy and rebuilding this becomes an issue as important as anything else. Inspite of what the faithful think of me, the oustings in January forced several to rethink the equation. On Tuesday January 20th of 2004 Ross Chatwin called me to be the Architect of his press conference only 3 days away. By the 23rd security was leveraged, the press invited and a variety of other events had to be put in place, all in 72 hours. This event forced a review of whom could be seen as a victim, was it to be only girls, only children? To find common ground it had to be men disenfranchised, entire families and those who suffered an abuse of power, while they still believed in the "work". If you read the Spectrum what occured after the press conference was in fighting between activist who thought it could only be one way.

Clearly victims of abuse include men who have lost families, had their wives and children reassigned and homes taken, jobs lost and the list goes on. Activist concerned with more than child brides are still involved today. I had said I would help former mayor Dan Barlow, inspite of his public quote to the St. George Spectrum that I "drink my own bath water"! Addressing his victimization can be common ground, though if he has misused public assistance funds, that act is seperate from what can be offered in help. We are each responsible not only to our faith, but also to being truthful.

An issue I want to tackle is the economy of Hildale and Colorado City, where believe it or not, I have friends and that will be the challenge in 2005.

As I have stated, no one is lining up to rip families apart. The question of a lack of oversight that occured with Warren, is the issue with state government that is trying to address this, this does not require a "circling of the wagons" to fend off state interest and intervention. Polygamy and over 18, in the society outside, it is cohabitation and between consenting adults, no matter how it gets labeled. Inviting oversight and reporting known abuses is the begining of starting over.

Halloween night of 2002, a boy from first ward was driving a truck in Centennial Park and tried to impress a girl, he hit her with his vehicle. She got a concusion and was life flighted later that night to SLC to a hospital. We know who the boy was, we know he had no drivers license, we know who the girl was and we actually got a written statement that we were unable to use do to the witnesses age. When checking the police blotter, no one had turned in a report. 2nd ward suggested God would solve the problem, first ward had nothing to add. This is not an example of why self regulation is deserved and I can in detail name 2 dozen such events. The reason the school board needs to be ousted, along with the police force is unequal protection and enforcement of laws and policies. Circumstances that really occured in Colorado City and that region went unreported because of a lack of oversight, one that a real city would have had to report to the county or state, but in Hildale and Colorado City everything is contained.

If the excuse is we did not know, then there is that much more reason that oversight is needed.

With Lenore Holm, Mike Watkiss with News 3 TV tried to extricate Nichole while still a juvenile from Wynn Jessops home, but was blocked and threatened with arrest. The police report that placed Nichole as staying with Mary Harker was a known lie, thus the credibility issues raised today. When Police Chief Sam Roundy was interviewed in 2001 he said "none of my officers have underaged brides", then Rodney tried to sue for custody in two states, this before the state tried to prosecute him.

When the Attorney General investigators approached Warren's home only to be met by a armed non commission militia playing cops, the example of a public threat was fully met. These are more reasons that self determination is not earned or an entitlement. Non police officers cant stop citizens on the street armed and prepared to shoot just because you don't like them driving down one of your streets.

Rebuild and restructure yes, but no oversight is not acceptable given a long and detailed history that has only been partly covered in the news. Having a mixed population and private property ownership in Colorado City might expode the cultural myths, along with infusing new monies into the local economy, hows that for SCARY!

MIB

Anonymous said...

I know Jack Cook too. Is he still with his brother Lynn? 4 Wives and 56 children. One wive I believe had 17 children, ouch! The story has variation, he admits to the 15 year old daughter, but claimed the 13 year old was another issue. Admitted guilty but it was how the leadership intervened.

Im sure his children to day might be able to fill in the blanks. At my front door Claude or Seth in front of Jack called him an SOB and Jack said thats what he was! He has detail that period and it raises more questions.

We can look at Johnny Jessop and a dozen others that fall into Jacks crimes, but when you look at the Sex Offender registry, Colorado City Police Dept. does not report or require reporting. If they did we might see such names in the states registry. It keeps coming back to that question of oversight or lack there of.

There's some other names I would like to discuss, but I am not sure this is the best arena for it. How about we talk about that ex-deputy sheriff from Mohave County, the one that spent 18 years before there before taking a new position in Colorado City, to abuse his power there?

MIB

Anonymous said...

To 3:33 PM:

I was listening to Brother Johnson's teachings before Warren Jeffs was born. Brother Johnson was committed to eternal marriages and family stability--He once said, "Divorce is not in my vocabulary."

What Warren Jeffs has done to destroy family's is unconscienable. Yes, there may have been a few abusers among them but you've got to be totally lost if you think all the men run off by Warren are "Jack Cook" types. Get serious, Allen Steed and others like him were honest gentlemen who did nothing to deserve the abuse Warren pummeled them with.

Yes, the true abuser is Warren Jeffs, who is single-handedly doing more to destroy the fundamentalist movement than the government ever could or would.

Warren Jeffs commandeered a congregation of 10,000 faithful and has destroyed the lives of many of those and continues on a path of destruction that is aimed at destroying the rest.

You said that a man or woman does not have to stay with an abuser and if you really believe that then WHY ARE YOU STILL WITH WARREN, THE MOST NOTORIOUS ABUSER OF OUR TIME?

Anonymous said...

You speak some truth. Jack Cooke was arrested. He went to jail. I am not the law. I did not pick his sentance. It was investigated by Paul Graff, The district attorney. There are plenty of people being put away. I do not mean to imply, that Colorado City and Hildale Utah, does not need honest police. They do. Police need credible witnesses. If other people's crimes were not reported and handled, that is one thing. To say, that the people here have had honest Police work, that would go to far, streaching the truth. Some have. Some have not. Warren Jeffs is an honest man. These police will pay the price for lies, like all other liers. Women are institutionalized, Why child molesters are free to walk the streets. You named a few. I could name four more. I think the school needs a big overhaul. The same people responsible for the school, are the ones who can on a word, put a women away in a mentle hospital. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. some are put away for inability to deal with this sexuall abuse. The men are free. The women are labled crazy and that gives every one a licence to harrass. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. And they are crazy, so nobody listens. Let us be equal under the law. How ever these cops are good with their camra's, like Flora and her show. They know how to provoke, their crazy women victum's. If she is silent, and obedient, she goes to the mental hospital. They make up the report. SHE IS COMMITTED, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. If she resists and they arrest her, for resisting arrest, interfering with an officer, and crimnal trespassing. I ADD MY VOTE. LETS GET SOME POLICE MEN IN COLORADO CITY AND HILDALE UTAH. I WILL SAY THIS AGAIN: LET US GET SOME MEN, WHO UPHOLD AND HONOR LAW, IN COLORADO CITY AND HILDALE UTAH. I ALREADY MET THE TEXAS SARGENTS. THEY ARE GENTLEMAN.

Anonymous said...

Abuse of police power under the color of law has been going on far too long in the Twin Cities. I don't care what a man's religion is or how many consenting adult relationships he has--

But when he puts on that uniform and badge, he damn well better serve the public interest fairly and objectively and quit this business of being an agent for a church. Sam Barlow couldn't separate church and state in his official duty's and his example has definitely permeated the "FLDS" police force.

I should add this caveat however, although a man's private life is his affair (pun intended), I still don't like the idea of a President of the United Sates having extramarital sex in the White House. So I think we all can be more circumspect about how we (in government) represent the people we serve in an official capacity.

P.S. I don't think the Attorney General should act as an agent of the LDS Church either. He prosecutes only polygamists with a bigamy statute (as it's now written) that clearly applies to a host of monogomist's. I will debate this issue with anyone . . .

Anonymous said...

To 6:15 and MIB

I respect what you guy's are saying but please, use some spelling and grammar that we can decipher. I'm about to get a headache just reading what you have to say.

Anonymous said...

To 7:04

You just have to power through it and quit stumbling on the grammatical errors.

-a fellow proof-reader

Anonymous said...

My apology for gramar and mis spelling. Its true I can destroy the English language like none other. Unfortunately I type with one very sore finger and I have to look at the keyboard at that. Prolific I have well over 10,000 related emails produced in 56 months, but I was free! The nature of volunteers is to accept them as they are or FLAME them.

Personally I feel right at home with those who mispell the English language....

MIB

Anonymous said...

There has been a lot of speculation about the potential for a horrible tragedy occurring at the YFZ and/or in Short Creek, similar to the tragedies that occurred at Waco and Jonestown. Some people have suggested that more than 1,000 men, women, and children could die in a mass-murder/mass-suicide if Warren commanded his followers to "drink the Kool-Aid" or defend him with their lives in the event that law officers storm the gates of the YFZ with a warrent for Warren's arrest. I'd be curious to hear from both FLDS members and FLDS apostates whether they think there is any truth to this speculation. Actually, this question might make a good thread of its own, under a new heading, if the web administrator cares to make it one.

Anonymous said...

I'm an ex-member, and I really don't think that would happen. Warren is doing a good enough job "killing" men by taking away their families and loved ones already. He's just a power and control freak, but he wouldn't have a mass suicide done.

Anonymous said...

I have never thought Warren would order a mass-suicide under normal circumstances. But I think everything would change if he was surrounded by SWAT teams and the National Guard and realized there was no way to escape. He would never, ever allow himself to be arrested. Never. I don't know anyone who would argue with this. He would much rather be martyred than be put behind bars. And he would never go out alone. I think he would order his followers to fight to the death to defend him, just as David Koresh ordered his followers to do in Waco. And then after hundreds had died fighting, he would order the rest to kill their children and then kill themselves, telling them that was their key to entering the celestial kingdom. This is pretty much what Jim Jones did. And I think it is probably what Warren would do. I sure hope Sheriff Doran and the Texas Rangers and the FBI understand this before they decide to play cowboy and bust down the gates of the YFZ Ranch. Otherwise they are going to have a whole lot of blood on their hands.

Anonymous said...

It's too bad that if Warren Jeffs forces a "situation" with law enforcement officials everyone will see it as law enforcement's fault.

Why is it so difficult to see that this man needs to turn himself in?

He demands love and loyalty, yet he hides behind his followers.

Did Jesus do that in the Garden of Gethsemane? If Warren Jeffs is going to continue on with his messiah charade, he should at least play the part better.

Anonymous said...

I agree with one of the previous bloggers. I dont think Warren would order a mass suicide unless the government were closing in and there was no escape for them. I know some of his followers would do whatever their "profit" told them to do. I was talking to a friend a few years back that told me his brother-in-law told him that if Warren told him to he would even slit his own wife's throat. I know they are not all this brain dead but I do believe some are. I think they would do whatever Warren told them to, no matter what the consequences.

Anonymous said...

Under normal circumstances, I do not think Warren Jeff's would order a mass suicide. But I agree with others, that if he were back into a corner, he could become violent. Because the FLDS teach absolute obedience, the potential for violence is always there. From the FLDS book In Light and Truth, authored by Rulon Jeff's, published in 1994, chapter 2, page 24, it reads; God said, thou shall not kill; at another time he said, thou shalt utterly destroyed. This is the principle on which the government of Heaven is conducted--by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right no matter what it is although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the event transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God all good things will be added.

In essence as prophet, Warren Jeff's can preach that violence is wrong, but if ordered by the prophet, it can be correct.

Because of the purchase of 100 SAM 180 rifles, in 1981, purchased by Louis Barlow, from Roger Grahm of Ogden Utah, old fears remain. While this gun purchase was investigated by Jim Gober, of BATF in the mid-1980s, the fact that some within the church considered buying weapons for survival purposes, it validates the fact that some under some circumstance might resort to violence.

Because the weapons, were only semi automatic, technically they were not in violation of the law. Louis Barlow had explained this as he was selling end of the world survival kits.

It was believed that half of the weapons were never delivered, as they were to be drop shipped from the warehouse. The remaining half was thought to have been resold.

Because so many have said they would follow the prophet and do whatever they were told, this is caused further speculation, supporting a potential for violence. This remains a contradiction to the theology, but backed into a corner where Warren could lose his power and control, the possibility remains.

MIB

Anonymous said...

I just looked up the definition of "Warren" in an online dictionary.

It means......

"An area where rabbits breed"

I raise rabbits. I know their ethics and family structure.

Warren is a fine name for your leader.

ex creeker said...

MIB
Ive read alot of interesting stuff you've wrote, but the guns BS.

ex creeker said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Men In Black said...

The Guns I have the serial numbers to? As I recall Jimmy Gober retired to Texas, what was he investigating for months in Colorado City & Hildale? I'm not sure what else BATF would be looking for? Then Ken Campbell the Washington County Sheriff didn't really investigate this? Roger Graham the arms dealer in Ogden wasn't real either? Maybe you're right?

MIB

MrT said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
MrT said...

What were the results MIB?

I remember hearing the same crap in the 1980's. Its possible that its true but what are the results of the investigation? It seems like there should be public information from the investigations.

Where are the official charges.
Where are the official records?

If your going to use Lorin Webb as a source, your barking up the wrong tree as he was a sensational journalist, he did not have an unbiased integrity in his reporting. In fact he was very biased against the people here.

I remember the TV reports accusing of the guns but I have never seen or heard any validation of them actually existing. The news then claimed they were fully automatic weapons. They also showed someone firing a gun that they claimed was the same model as the ones being purchased. The gun they showed on the news had a round canister underneath for the bullets like what you see in the old time mobster movies.

If you have documented proof or you can tell me where to find it, I would like to see it. I mean this in all sincerity not in any way to be an antagonist in what your saying. Its just hard to get the truth when people manufacture rumors and then create visual items along with it claiming its true.
I know it is possible but from living here all my life I have a hard time believing it.

Anonymous said...

I too remember the news reports, and at the time I was living in C.C. I also had the unique opportunity to go where the guns were supposedly being stored, and I can testify that I saw no guns in the cavern. I never saw even one gun like the ones they were trying to say the people had.

Please provide proof. Like MrT, I believe it is possible but I still have yet to see the actual proof.

-FarmBoy

MrT said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
MrT said...

I miss Uncle Vergil too Farm Boy.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like we're getting down to the nitty-gritty, but so far, nobody knows exactly WHO is at YFZ, and why? any insight from the inside?????

Men In Black said...

12:05 & 9:17

I thought maybe you were law enforcement and disagreed with the claim and if that were true, then I would of been surprised!

It was channel 10 out of Phoenix in maybe 1984 that ran the story that showed the guns, I have the news clip. It was Benny Bistline & Cyril Bradshaw with their faces shadowed out, voices disguised.

A S.A.M. 180 is a semi automatic and the gun of choice for prison guards. Its only a .22 caliber but it fires almost 180 rounds, not quite, so the clip is huge. They could easily be modified to fully automatic, but I had never heard these were.

Jimmy Gober was assigned to be the BATF investigator and he pissed off a few, as he had a sailors mouth and a dog named Brigham! The dog got cussed at alot....

The Arms dealer was Roger Graham of Ogden Utah. The weapons were to be dropped shipped out of a warehouse in LA & Las Vegas, half were never shipped or an issue.

I have a list of serial numbers and several agencies since have not only shared the list, but investigated it further. Because I am not commissioned the current results of that interest I was not privy to. I was however the conduit between two agencies and have those emails. If you can prove you are law enforcement, I will forward both the serial numbers and the agency who requested them from me.

As the story goes, Louis had intended to sell survival kits as an enterprise, they were not intended for an uprising.

Personally I am more interested in what Louis, Truman and William were doing with Mohave Minerals, before that building burned down one Sunday morning???

In Rulon T. Jeffs sermon books volumes 1-8 don't ask me which one, Rulon speaks of the guns, but does not state one way or the other whether they existed in his opinion.

Those books also speak of Orrin Hatch and of a chance meeting Rulon had with him. These theology books are more like a history, especially when Rulon was "dissing" Bradshaw, Hammon, Timpson & Bistline. He used the names of those disenfranchised whom he wanted out and or who moved across the road to Centennial Park.

The cave or the "Bishops Warehouse" as it is refered to was of great speculation when the guns were investigated. The day Washington County Sheriff Ken Campbell wanted a peak, he could not get past the lock, the following day with a court order there was nothing there, go figure!

MIB

ex creeker said...

As I remember the report never showed the guns, but a gun like the ones supposedly bought.
If the Sheriff really thought there were guns in the cavern, he would have posted a guard.

As for the BATF in the 80’s, at one time a bunch of threat letters got delivered from the Lebaron Clan. The whole town was put under guard for several day maybes a week. You couldn’t get in or out without going through a checkpoint. ATF, FBI MIB Etc Were all there. A friend of mine went 4 wheeling in the creek bed and was pulled over by FBI. He was told to please go home as to not add to their work load

I’m not saying these people haven’t done anything wrong, but let not throw tons of crap with a few truths

Anonymous said...

AMEN! I am also an "ex" but I know that whatever else the creekers can be accused of, having guns is NOT among them. Indeed, Uncle Roy used to preach against them frequently citing "You live by the gun, you die by the gun." Having a gun was always in my memory worse than having a TV! (horrors!)

Anonymous said...

Actually every time Uncle Roy or Uncle Rulon told the people we did not need guns it was interpreted by the "Barlow" mentality that this was a commandment that none of us have guns.

The fact is many of the families here grew up with guns and they were taught to use them responsibly as a tool.

In the past there were several times when men from the community had to hunt to keep the people fed.

Guns are just like any other tool, whether it be a car or a chain saw or what ever. Any of them can be involved in an accident or can be used irresponsibly or abused and cause mayhem. A gun does not point itself, does not load itself, nor does it shoot itself.

If we think we are going to protect people from themselves then we may as well tear up the constitution and ask the communists to come on over.
People must be held responsible for their own actions.

Guns are primarily used to kill and this is a sobering thought. Just because someone owns a gun does not make them a killer or a bad person.


I agree that in today's day and age that guns are not needed as they once were, but every time my father asked Uncle Roy or Uncle Rulon about guns they did not say that guns were taboo. They said that as a whole the people did not need them and there were people that were getting into guns that did not respect them for their proper uses and they were causing problems by using them irresponsibly.

We have not, nor have we ever been a violent people nor have we condoned violence. A good example is of the 1953 raid where the families gathered at the old school before the police arrived to commence the raid. No one from short creek was armed.

Uncle Vergil carved out the cavern and he was never a man to store weapons. If there were any guns as inferred that Louis Barlow acquired them, then he did it on his own and they were never stored in the cavern. Nor were they sponsored by the church leadership at that time.
Uncle Roy was quite adamant that the lord would fight our battles. Guns were not needed for this.

Its possible that Cyril Bradshaw and Ben Bistline could say something that was true and I am sure some of the things they say are true. But the fact is that they felt put upon and cheated when they parted ways or were forced out of the religion. They were justified, I think for much of their feelings.

The problem is they have always had an axe to grind and anything they felt plausible that might support their feelings whether it was true or not they had no problem reporting it as true.

I find it hard to believe that with the investigation that was made at that time. Even with all the supposed serial numbers and testimonies of buyers and sellers and ex-members of the church. How come there were no charges filed against anyone?

quiet canadian said...

Just curious, I see alot of ex - creekers blogging on, who still put alot in store of what Uncle Roy taught. What are you people doing now you have left? You still sound as if you have a testimony of the Fundamental principals of the gospel. Are any of you banding together to teach your families, (I hope you were fortunate enough to get out with them)to carry on with our religeous values?

Anonymous said...

Nobody ever really leaves the Creek. People move away and people adjust to other venues--But the Creek meanders on its way through the memory, like a haunting melody, or an elusive dream that comes and goes with the spectered wind . . .

Anonymous said...

To 3:31 pm;

That was a nice piece of writing.Is there more where that came from?

Nameless and still alive.

Anonymous said...

Nameless and still alive:

Yes there's more. So much more that volumes of lives with their hopes and dreams and woeful prayer's incessently implore blind justice, to somehow restore the innocent joy, which a long time ago once was, but can never be, any more . . .

Anonymous said...

I left the creek group in 1992. I was raised in S.L.C. and attended Jeffs school. I find it interesting that David Allred is one of Warrens leutinants. As a classmate of mine, David showed us all pictures of nearly naked women!!!it's obvious that people still close to Warren are there for power and think the same way Warren does.
By the way, obedience is NOT the first law of heaven---Loving the lord is, then loving your neighbors

Anonymous said...

12:35,
Why did you leave in 1992? I know people who also attended Jeffs school.... just looking for any familiar backgrounds.

onthestreet said...

Ah yes, the aftermath. The world has ended for many. All that's left is the sweeping up.

Anonymous said...

Huh?

Anonymous said...

onthestreet:

Has it ever occurred to you to SHUT UP? You are poluting this blog with your endless nonsense. You inject yourself on every thread even if you have nothing to say. Show a little self control and quit rattling off at the mouth.

onthestreet said...

Anonymous Said: Nobody ever really leaves the Creek. People move away and people adjust to other venues--But the Creek meanders on its way through the memory, like a haunting melody, or an elusive dream that comes and goes with the spectered wind . . .

4/18/2005 3:31 PM

Street's Reply: Right, OTHER VENUES, not the venue of the Lord. That's the problem, and the creek doesn't meander far at all. It's the Short Creek, and God is cutting his work short. Yes, the memory for those who fall away from him is indeed haunting, and elusive.

Native Texan said...

You aren't living in the Creek, so what does that make you?

onthestreet said...

Ummmm, wait! thinking. . .
Ummmm, onthestreet?