FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Sunday, February 22, 2009
the anti religionists.
the anti religionists point to to faith, which they call; "belief without evidence" as proof of its fallacy, that it is without scientific proof. so my question; how much "faith" do we use when we accept science as infallible?
You make a mistake when you imply that "anti-religionists" feel that science is infallable. Most people with faith in science have faith in the scientific process, which allows for past knowledge to be revamped, rewritten and thrown out based on new, and verifiable, evidence. Science isn't infallible, but most of it has actual evidence to allow you to make informed decisions on what you will and won't believe. Most religions have no hard evidence to back up their claims, which isn't a real issue. However, when you are being asked to make a decision that impacts your life now for potential benefits for an afterlife which can't be proven, THEN I think a little scientific method might be in order. However, that's just my opinion and I don't have anything against people choosing to have faith in a divine being or spiritual force. I only have issues with people using that faith as an excuse to break the laws of the land where they live and harm other people.
No one with an actual scientific education believes that science is infallible. Rather, it is our consensus understanding of the best available objective evidence, as reviewed and substantiated by other scientists.
Science is a tool. Faith is internal in someone's spirit. Because of Science we have discovered many cures to certain diseases, found out through scientific processes we are indeed individuals, no two alike. You can have faith, and not be religious. You can have faith, and beleive and understand science.
For example: Scripture says Christ condemned the pharisee's because they did everything right on the outside in front of the public, but inside they were dead when it came to real faith. They were religious, but they weren't beleivers within their souls. To me, if someone is like a pharasee,, they are full of religiousity, instead of full in spirit of God.
It worked! nothing like a dumb question to liven things up:). Rebeckah. Very good,the scientific process requires the use of the best data to attain a goal. we can have faith in that. the fallibility lies in using unproven data to reach a goal set for you by an unproven authority. (this brings relevance to this discussion and celestial marriage). silver and TexBlues. yea. the term "anti religionist" don't really tell who I'm talking about, so ill have to explain what set me off. I was reading a discussion about belief in God and religion. the upshot was; how, to believe in these concepts was the ultimate in stupidity, then they proceeded to make science into a virtual religion. that made me wonder how much we just accept what we hear, if it has the word science attached to it. Nancy, I believe what I said to Rebeckah agrees with what you say. anon. 5:12 I agree with everything you said, though I might add; my faith, the faith that I have is based on evidence. Now, how does all this relate to Plural marriage? In my opinion, polygamy is not the problem, it is a symptom of the problem, the problem lies taking questionable actions,based on a questionable doctrine. :)
Uncaduff, I agree with you, polygamy is not the problem. To me, the biggest problem (and the biggest crime, albeit it is not illegal) is in encouraging people to gain an education and then telling them not to think for themselves. I have seen no evidence, ever, to make me believe there is a God who cares how many people you marry, how long your hair is, or whether you laugh too loud. I don't know if I fit into the "anti-religionist" label, but I am a very skeptical person.
1 John Chapter 4 15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God. 16 We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. 17 In this is love brought to perfection among us, that we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
NOTE WARREN'S "GOD" RULES WITH FEAR!
God message is simple. God (Jesus) spilled HIS BLOOD on the cross, so man can live. Accept that knowledge in faith and you will not receive the punishment of eternal death.
1 John Chapter 3 23 And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us.
Uncaduff, You continue to make good contributions to the public discussion, and attract people to your blog who do the same, thank you.
I am puzzled by this statement: "my faith, the faith that I have is based on evidence" Most people who talk about faith being based on evidence are usually referring to the Bible, as an inspired document. Is that what you mean?
Also, I gather that you read someone describing religion as a the ultimate in stupidity (and then proceeded to say various things about science.) It is indeed human nature to talk like that. However, taking the time to describe things in terms of their stupidity, takes one's focus away from describing and doing what is valuable and good. I think there are reasons why we indulge in that sort of talk, but we do always have the choice of where to put our energy; a daily challenge I realize.
Plural marriage, or common law marriage, either one causes dissention within the core family. Trying to "force" humans to live what someone else commands, ie human will never result in a positive effect.
I trust each human has a sense of discernment, which if we use, gives us knowledge of right and wrong. Anyone who trust another to the point of losing who you are as an individual becomes dissention. Nearly every prophet biblically discovered this "after" they had made bad decisions. After they let their lust and desires overcome that discernment I beleive God gives every human. Please understand, my belief is Flds for the most part, is experiencing the consequenses of Bad judgement, Patriarcal teachings by MAN, not God. I also believe many who were members of this community, have realized after being tossed in the outside world, they do have individual thoughts, and reasoning and power to use the discernment God gave them.
silver, I'm referring to my faith in God primarily, but also, faith in things like; what works and what don't, who I can trust and who I cant. I "believed" my mother when she taught me about God, but true faith came after experiencing his influence in my life. likewise, faith in Priesthood, Church and Government was lost, after experiencing there influence in my life. that's not to say that they are all bad,but to me they don't inspire the kind of faith I'm talking about.
uncaduff, I like your description "what works and what doesn't". I agree, that is truly 'faith based on evidence.' The reason 'faith' is part of that clause, is because the evidence taken from our day to day lives will always be incomplete, and seemingly contradictory. Thus, faith connects the dots, enables us to sustain contradiction, and gives us a purpose.
Kuddos Undcaduff!! That is what Im talking about, the experience, personal experience of God in your life.
A personal relationship with God, one on one relationship. I trully believe each person can have personal experience in your spirit and soul with God. I never wanted what someone else said they experienced to believe in God. I needed that personally for myself and recieved it.
I was afraid that it was going to be something along the line that if you didn't toe a certain religious line, then you were an anti-religionist (sp?), which I disagree with.
Thankfully, that doesn't appear to be the case. For example, in my case, I'm a Deist. I believe that there is a God (Nature's God, Architect of the Universe, whatever title it may be known as), but I don't believe in revealed religions, etc. Science may show some of God's laws, but our understanding of God (and Science) is imperfect, and always will be. Those that blindly believe in Science and cannot see the wonders that are still out there are sadly missing out.
Anonymous, I believe the most "evil" creature in Native American mythology would be coyote, and he was more of a trickster than an evil creature. Perhaps he would be closer to a Loki type figure than a Satan figure.
Uncaduff, Although you asked this specifically of TBM, I would like to say, that yes we need a mediator. That is why we are born, live and die. Our life experience is the mediator. The very few times that the vapor of that mediator has been very thin for me, I have suddenly understood the meaning of the expression "Thou shalt not look into the face of G-d and yet live."
As a Deist, I don't believe that there is a need for a 'mediator.'
Anon & Rebeckah,
As far as an equivalent of the 'devil' in Native American religions, it depends on the tribe. The Iroquois Confederation (Haudenosaunee) believed that the brother (Hanegoategeh) of the Great Spirit was evil. The Sioux (Lakota, Dakota) have Iya. The Cherokee (Tsalagi) have Kalanu Ahkyeliski. Some don't really have one. It is not as simple as the good god/bad god of Christianity...
Faith, or religion and science are two sides of the same coin. They follow the same basic principles but with totally different and very often opposing outcomes.
The seed of faith is the evidence of the existence of things that are not seen or felt physically based on truths according to the person exploring them.
The seed of science is the evidence of things that are seen and felt physically (and some that are not) based on truths according to the physical evidence.
They are so similar and so vastly different.
The trouble comes when one seed or the other is elaborated upon and elaborated upon until the tree that grows from the seed resembles nothing of the original seed.
I believe regardless what you teach your children, there comes a time in person's life where they question what they have been taught. They then begin to seek answers. Personally, I never found the answers from another human, although I found situations of their faith, or advice, or even I don't know's? I do believe in God, I do believe in Christ, simply because I can understand that God knew Man couldn't live a life of "perfection" or by "law" so he gave us Christ, who he came as human flesh, yet did not sin, through his death, he died the death that as humans we don't have to die eternally.
24 comments:
You make a mistake when you imply that "anti-religionists" feel that science is infallable. Most people with faith in science have faith in the scientific process, which allows for past knowledge to be revamped, rewritten and thrown out based on new, and verifiable, evidence. Science isn't infallible, but most of it has actual evidence to allow you to make informed decisions on what you will and won't believe. Most religions have no hard evidence to back up their claims, which isn't a real issue. However, when you are being asked to make a decision that impacts your life now for potential benefits for an afterlife which can't be proven, THEN I think a little scientific method might be in order. However, that's just my opinion and I don't have anything against people choosing to have faith in a divine being or spiritual force. I only have issues with people using that faith as an excuse to break the laws of the land where they live and harm other people.
Uncaduff,
Who specifically are the antireligionists? Thank you.
No one with an actual scientific education believes that science is infallible. Rather, it is our consensus understanding of the best available objective evidence, as reviewed and substantiated by other scientists.
I second Silver's question.
Who are the antireligionists?
Science is a tool. Faith is internal in someone's spirit. Because of Science we have discovered many cures to certain diseases, found out through scientific processes we are indeed individuals, no two alike.
You can have faith, and not be religious. You can have faith, and beleive and understand science.
For example: Scripture says Christ condemned the pharisee's because they did everything right on the outside in front of the public, but inside they were dead when it came to real faith.
They were religious, but they weren't beleivers within their souls.
To me, if someone is like a pharasee,, they are full of religiousity, instead of full in spirit of God.
It worked! nothing like a dumb question to liven things up:).
Rebeckah. Very good,the scientific process requires the use of the best data to attain a goal. we can have faith in that. the fallibility lies in using unproven data to reach a goal set for you by an unproven authority. (this brings relevance to this discussion and celestial marriage).
silver and TexBlues.
yea. the term "anti religionist" don't really tell who I'm talking about, so ill have to explain what set me off.
I was reading a discussion about belief in God and religion. the upshot was; how, to believe in these concepts was the ultimate in stupidity, then they proceeded to make science into a virtual religion. that made me wonder how much we just accept what we hear, if it has the word science attached to it.
Nancy, I believe what I said to Rebeckah agrees with what you say.
anon. 5:12
I agree with everything you said,
though I might add; my faith, the faith that I have is based on evidence.
Now, how does all this relate to Plural marriage? In my opinion, polygamy is not the problem, it is a symptom of the problem, the problem lies taking questionable actions,based on a questionable doctrine. :)
Uncaduff,
I agree with you, polygamy is not the problem. To me, the biggest problem (and the biggest crime, albeit it is not illegal) is in encouraging people to gain an education and then telling them not to think for themselves. I have seen no evidence, ever, to make me believe there is a God who cares how many people you marry, how long your hair is, or whether you laugh too loud. I don't know if I fit into the "anti-religionist" label, but I am a very skeptical person.
1 John Chapter 4
15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God.
16 We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him.
17 In this is love brought to perfection among us, that we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
NOTE WARREN'S "GOD" RULES WITH FEAR!
God message is simple. God (Jesus) spilled HIS BLOOD on the cross, so man can live. Accept that knowledge in faith and you will not receive the punishment of eternal death.
1 John Chapter 3
23 And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us.
Patty
Uncaduff,
You continue to make good contributions to the public discussion, and attract people to your blog who do the same, thank you.
I am puzzled by this statement: "my faith, the faith that I have is based on evidence" Most people who talk about faith being based on evidence are usually referring to the Bible, as an inspired document. Is that what you mean?
Also, I gather that you read someone describing religion as a the ultimate in stupidity (and then proceeded to say various things about science.) It is indeed human nature to talk like that. However, taking the time to describe things in terms of their stupidity, takes one's focus away from describing and doing what is valuable and good. I think there are reasons why we indulge in that sort of talk, but we do always have the choice of where to put our energy; a daily challenge I realize.
Plural marriage, or common law marriage, either one causes dissention within the core family.
Trying to "force" humans to live what someone else commands, ie human will never result in a positive effect.
I trust each human has a sense of discernment, which if we use, gives us knowledge of right and wrong. Anyone who trust another to the point of losing who you are as an individual becomes dissention.
Nearly every prophet biblically discovered this "after" they had made bad decisions. After they let their lust and desires overcome that discernment I beleive God gives every human.
Please understand, my belief is Flds for the most part, is experiencing the consequenses of Bad judgement, Patriarcal teachings by MAN, not God. I also believe many who were members of this community, have realized after being tossed in the outside world, they do have individual thoughts, and reasoning and power to use the discernment God gave them.
silver, I'm referring to my faith in God primarily, but also, faith in things like; what works and what don't, who I can trust and who I cant. I "believed" my mother when she taught me about God, but true faith came after experiencing his influence in my life. likewise, faith in Priesthood, Church and Government was lost, after experiencing there influence in my life. that's not to say that they are all bad,but to me they don't inspire the kind of faith I'm talking about.
uncaduff,
I like your description "what works and what doesn't". I agree, that is truly 'faith based on evidence.' The reason 'faith' is part of that clause, is because the evidence taken from our day to day lives will always be incomplete, and seemingly contradictory. Thus, faith connects the dots, enables us to sustain contradiction, and gives us a purpose.
Kuddos Undcaduff!!
That is what Im talking about, the experience, personal experience of God in your life.
A personal relationship with God, one on one relationship. I trully believe each person can have personal experience in your spirit and soul with God. I never wanted what someone else said they experienced to believe in God.
I needed that personally for myself and recieved it.
uncaduff,
Thanks for answering the question.
I was afraid that it was going to be something along the line that if you didn't toe a certain religious line, then you were an anti-religionist (sp?), which I disagree with.
Thankfully, that doesn't appear to be the case. For example, in my case, I'm a Deist. I believe that there is a God (Nature's God, Architect of the Universe, whatever title it may be known as), but I don't believe in revealed religions, etc. Science may show some of God's laws, but our understanding of God (and Science) is imperfect, and always will be. Those that blindly believe in Science and cannot see the wonders that are still out there are sadly missing out.
TxBluesman,
Do believe in evil?
Patty
I believe that people can be evil, but I don't believe in the devil, if that is your question.
Thank you, I guess that was my question.
Evil is usually associated with a being called the devil, satin or lucifer.
Is there an evil presence in Native American lore or just a creator?
Patty
TxBlues, what is your take on the "need for a mediator" between Man and God?
Anonymous,
I believe the most "evil" creature in Native American mythology would be coyote, and he was more of a trickster than an evil creature. Perhaps he would be closer to a Loki type figure than a Satan figure.
Uncaduff,
Although you asked this specifically of TBM, I would like to say, that yes we need a mediator. That is why we are born, live and die. Our life experience is the mediator. The very few times that the vapor of that mediator has been very thin for me, I have suddenly understood the meaning of the expression "Thou shalt not look into the face of
G-d and yet live."
ucaduff,
As a Deist, I don't believe that there is a need for a 'mediator.'
Anon & Rebeckah,
As far as an equivalent of the 'devil' in Native American religions, it depends on the tribe. The Iroquois Confederation (Haudenosaunee) believed that the brother (Hanegoategeh) of the Great Spirit was evil. The Sioux (Lakota, Dakota) have Iya. The Cherokee (Tsalagi) have Kalanu Ahkyeliski. Some don't really have one. It is not as simple as the good god/bad god of Christianity...
Faith, or religion and science are two sides of the same coin. They follow the same basic principles but with totally different and very often opposing outcomes.
The seed of faith is the evidence of the existence of things that are not seen or felt physically based on truths according to the person exploring them.
The seed of science is the evidence of things that are seen and felt physically (and some that are not) based on truths according to the physical evidence.
They are so similar and so vastly different.
The trouble comes when one seed or the other is elaborated upon and elaborated upon until the tree that grows from the seed resembles nothing of the original seed.
I believe regardless what you teach your children, there comes a time in person's life where they question what they have been taught.
They then begin to seek answers. Personally, I never found the answers from another human, although I found situations of their faith, or advice, or even I don't know's?
I do believe in God, I do believe in Christ, simply because I can understand that God knew Man couldn't live a life of "perfection" or by "law" so he gave us Christ, who he came as human flesh, yet did not sin, through his death, he died the death that as humans we don't have to die eternally.
@ Rebeckah:
The reason you have found no evidence for a God who holds people to ethical standards is because you have not seen what is in front of your nose.
Post a Comment