According to an article in the SLT, the evidence of the State welfare records for 2007 and 2008 in both Utah and Arizona do not support the claims that the FLDS participate in widespread welfare fraud.
I would post the link, but instead refer you all the the Salt Lake Tribune home page. Just click on 'News' then polygamy and the article will be there.
Thoughts anyone?
My personal opinion on the subject is:
1- I am glad it is being shown that not all the people there blatantly abuse the system. My ex- father-in-law is among those who don't.
2-but there ARE those who do and we all know it. My own sister used to be one of them.
3-it really galls me that good women like Caroline Jessop get the public anger over this.
4- I don't really think the records of the past two years count because during the past two years, a good percent of the FLDS people have been living elsewhere. If a true analysis were to be considered, the state should dig into their records of when the full force of the community was resident in Colorado City. Like the years 2002-2003 when all the FLDS from Salt Lake City were living there as well as the original Colorado City residents. THEN compare that data to the average state data and THAT would be an accurate picture of the FLDS lifestyle and dependence on the government systems.
61 comments:
I just want to add one last thing. I didn't give the web address fro the article in the Salt Lake Tribune because they sued the HOPE orginization for using their articles and I like this site. :) But, I will quote two paragraphs from the article I mentioned:
"A majority of residents of the adjoining towns, which have a combined population of 6,789, belong to the sect; of the towns' 800 households, about 120 are occupied by former or nonmembers of the sect, according to Hildale Mayor David Zitting."
And....
"As for fraud, Arizona has not prosecuted anyone in Colorado City for misuse of federal or state aid programs, according to a spokeswoman for Attorney General Terry Goddard."
So,.....the state admits that the basis of their 'fact' was done with mostly "non- members" of the FLDS and that they haven't persecuted any welfare fraud cases in the last years. Does this mean that there WAS no fraud or that they did not PROSECUTE that fraud?
AND..... WHY are they saying this now? Why are the states of Arizona and Utah both now claiming the FLDS do not participate in widespread welfare fraud? Because they know they will be asked to prosecute it and the public will demand this if it were found to be true that the FLDS DO participate in welfare fraud? And with the economy in it's current fix they just don't have the time, MONEY, or inclination to do so, so they are using a non- factual data accumulation to get out of doing something about it?
Well, money is tight everywhere, and I don't blame them, but it truly p***es me off.
bbgae,
I found the SLT article to be poorly written and convoluted. But I have a question for you. I would estimate that a full 90% of the posters on Brooke's blog assert quite vehemently that the personal narratives of apostates are lies. All apostates come under the exact same criticism, from the most vitriolic like Laurie, to the most mild mannered, as I consider Carolyn Jessop to be. I get the idea from your profile that you are former FLDS. Is that true? If it is I would really like to hear your perspective on these published stories, which is about the only thing outsiders such as myself have to go on, other than direct blog type communications. If you have time or inclination to answer this, many thanks!!
HOPE was not sued by the Tribune. They were asked to stop posting full articles from the Tribune, a practice that went beyond fair use and into copyright infringement.
Thanks for pointing out the weaknesses in the investigation. As one looking in from the outside it would be difficult to know that these are weaknesses without more knowledgable pointers. I've been wondering why there haven't been any legal repercussions to the school financial fiasco. What I read looked pretty bad to me but the fact that no one seems to have been held accountable leads me to wonder if it wasn't as bad as the article paints it. Very confusing...
bbjae, I cannot refrain from posting, after reading what you have to say,... I have not been here on this site for a long time, as it seemed to become a place for lambasting the flds, instead of discussions by real and down-to- earth thinkers.
In your comments, you seem to have inside, somewhere that you have been hurt, and want to blame it on this people. It may be realistic, but I hope that you will be able to heal and let go of it.
As far as the fraud you speak of. I still uphold that the people in Colorado City/Hildale, are pretty much like the people in any other small town in America. There are honest people (and many of them), dishonest people, people who care and reach out, people who don't really care as long as they have what they need, loving people, selfish people, happy people, longfaced people, lazy people, hardworking people, talkative, gossiping, quiet, people of all sorts and types. They are just peculiar to the world because they mostly all belong to the same religion, a different religion than the world accepts as normal.
And I know personally that what you say of there being both those who did and those who did not, (use and/or abuse welfare) existed. Whether or not it was prosecuted doesn't change anything. And media hype does not change anything. It also does not mean that because there was (not) fraud in this town that there was (not) fraud in any other town just because they did not prosecute it there.
This truth exists: what we sow, we will reap. And every person has themselves to look at in the mirror and live with, to answer for thee choices they have made in life. If we live with a clear conscience, that "Man in the mirror" will be our friend when we go to meet our God.
Tmuf
Also, bbjae, maybe you can help me understand... you said "good women like Caroline Jessop get the public anger"
I knew Carolyn when she lived here, she taught one of my children. I enjoyed visiting with her, she was a very pleasant person, and likable. I knew her mothers, and worked for and knew her father, and other family members. I also knew the Merril Jessop family personally.
To make a long story short, I am wondering if you can help me understand why she portrayed Merril and Barbara as the characters she did in her book? What is "good"? Can a person be good if they do not do good? and is taking someone's (anyone's) name and character, twisting it into something evil, and portraying it to the world, a good act? I believe everyone has good and bad in them, for "non was ever perfect but Jesus", and Merril and Carolyn will both have to answer for their actions.
Tmuf
Rebecka,
as far as the "school financial fiasco", that is exactly what it was. It was over hyped by the media, and is a somewhat interesting story. We are not a weapon carrying poeple, there are a few who hunt, but as far as I know that is the extent of it. They (the goverment or whoever it was) sent a SWAT team in to that office to get the records. I don't know what they expected. There were about five people who worked there, older and otherwise harmless, - to hear them tell the story is amusing to say the least. Then in the end, the man they sent to find out all the bad things that were going on and make a report of it, found nothing more than any other school would have to deal with.
Tmuf
Tmuf:
Are you saying that you experienced Merril and Barbara differently from the way they are described by Carolyn Jessop? What was your own impression of Merril and Barbara?
First of all, The state welfare system doesn't give exact figures of any one particular group on welfare. Its against Hippa laws, privacy laws.
State data do not identify whether assistance recipients are FLDS, and information provided by Arizona uses a zip code that also includes the nearby polygamous community of Centennial Park, which is not affiliated with the FLDS.
Utah did not provide information about recipient numbers. But the average monthly food stamp benefit in Hildale is $829, compared with the typical monthly grant of $250 in Washington County.
But Paul Murphy, spokesman for Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, said that while there may not be "outright fraud" by the polygamous community, there is "a resentment that taxpayers are being used to support this lifestyle.
"If you are going to have three wives and 15 children, you need to figure out a way to support three wives and 15 children," he said.
Silver:
Yes, I am former FLDS. Ask away, I will answer you. Or you could click on my call name and email me.
Fly-On-The-Wall:
Thanks for setting me straight on that one. :)
TMUF:
First of all, I absolutely agree with your assessment of Colorado City and the FLDS. That is the same way I see it and tell about it, too. People are still just people no matter where they are from or how they are raised or what religion they do or do not belong to.
Yes- I have been hurt- but I DO NOT use my vengeance against the FLDS people. I could be right in the middle of several law suits of my own right now if I wanted to and yet I am not, nor do I judge the people who are involved in the law suits as 'bad'. That is just religious bigotry the FLDS taught us to use against the 'apostates'. And I am healed.
I have not read Carolyn's book, so I don't know what you are referring to about her picture of Merrill and Barbara. But I did know a little of her, too. She taught my brother and she was the teacher who finally got him the help in school that he needed. I worked with her mother and her father and I knew one of her other mothers. And what I have seen of Carolyn she IS a good woman. She absolutely has the right to tell about her life the way she experienced it and what she felt about it WITHOUT BEING JUDGED FOR IT!!!! Just because you disagree with her because you still retain respect for Merrill and Barbara does not make her a bad person.
I was "married' to a man who people considered to be a good faithful man who was charming in public but an abusive as-h--- once you were home alone with him. I know first hand people can sometimes be entirely different than the person they show the world.
Unless you have personally lived in Merrill Jessops' home at the same time as Carolyn, you have no right to judge her for what she said about him during that time.
Anon 1/06 @ 3:06-
Yes, those were paragraphs in the article I mentioned.
But that does not change the fact that the title of the article is :
"Facts don't Fit Claims of FLDS Fraud" Which, as I have pointed out, if you read the article and know what they are talking about is not exactly true. Nor does it change the fact that the public in general will read that and come away with the opinion that the ex- FLDS were lying and that there really is no welfare fraud in Colorado City. (Rebekah, please forgive me, because I am going to quote you to prove my point) As Rebekah said, Thanks for pointing out the weaknesses in the investigation. As one looking in from the outside it would be difficult to know that these are weaknesses without more knowledgable pointers.
bbgae,
Feel free to quote me anytime even if it doesn't make me look good. After all, if I'm going to post on a public forum I've pretty much given up any claims to privacy, haven't I? (At least as far as what I've posted goes.)
The more I've learned through reading pro and anti FLDS the more I believe that Tmuf's point is valid about many different people being in the FLDS faith with many different levels of personal standards for life. Some of what I've seen posted (on Brooke's blog for instance) lend credence to the claims of welfare fraud. Why? Well I read an interesting exchange between Pliggy and Furnace. The short version is that Furnace apparently paid someone within the FLDS to do some work on his home. (I do not know if that was before or after he became "apostate".) The work was not done, nor was the money repaid. Pliggy's response to this was, "I'll pay you back if you'll take the money and move away like you're supposed to." Now in my book if you take money for services you don't perform you are stealing. No, Pliggy isn't guilty of this, but his disregard of that basic dishonesty by the "good" FLDS member and his entire focus on "you should move out" implies to me that there is a basic acceptance of dishonest actions if the recipient of them is somehow considered "unworthy". Now this is only one instance and I can't paint a whole group from it, but it is disturbing and leads to questions in my mind.
Tmuf, by fiasco I'm referring to the quantities of money paid for rent of a building that was then not able to be used anymore, since the FLDS pulled their children out. I'm referring to school supplies, hardware and teacher time that, at least in the article I read, seemed to be misused. I have wondered why there weren't charges or firings or something as a result of it. I have read that the school ended up in receivership and is only now digging itself out, but I was interested in learning if there was more to it than the one story I read.
bbgae,
I have found your answers very informative. Thank you. I also like your handle "BBGAE=balance between good and evil." It reminds me of something the Dalai Lama said when he came to town last. (There is a big Tibetan community where I live.) After a lecture, someone raised their hand and said "do you think there is too much evil in the world?" Standing on stage at the lecturn, he thought about it for a second or two and then said "no, just enough."
It's always been my understanding that "welfare" is supposed to be a temporary helping hand to those in need, but not a way of life [both FLDS and non FLDS]. I also found the artice confusing and a bit contradictory. I've read for years, in various articles, that it was common for plural wives to apply for assistance, for the children, because there was no "husband" to support them.
I've also read that YFZ Ranch has millions and are self sufficient. So my question is...if that is true, aren't they obligated to help the other members who are not doing well, ie...CC/Hilldale residents. To me, if the good people of CC/Hilldale[or wherever] are still tything, what do they get in return?
If people in CC/Hilldale wanted to move to YFZ Ranch, can they? Do they need permission? Is YFZ Ranch closed off to them. Even if their families are there?
Maybe you people will never understand......To the woman who said, that her husband was abusive when they was alone; I would say this. Mine was too, and no one cared. He could do any thing behind closed doors and in public, he was just the sweetest of all charmers. No one cared. I would get beat and repremanded for being bad. I would get cheated and punished. I would get abused and told to repent. He also is a liar. So, when there is abuse, it is blankeded with a disobedient wife syndrome, and the men get teh glory, the state gets there glory, the media gets there glory, and the woman are shuned.......so much for justace hu? then they can all look good, ahve Brooke Adams say there is no abuse and the gig goes on.....
as to the school; My stuff was gone. I had no idea where. I was robbed by a man. One day I did go to the school to look around. I was thinking of the old days, when i was young. There sat some of my childrens stuff. So, there it was. I did talk to my childrens long ago teacher. I did give this thing to her. I did tell her that i supposed she may as well have it. The man who stole my things is not here any longer. But, glory to the school. They have a lot of children to teach. My daughter is dead.....She will not need the thing. I don't.....the school may as well keep it......
the greatest fraud in the welfare system, may be the welfare system itself.one report, (although I was unable to find the source, to quote it directly), stated that the 2005 welfare budget used 72% of the money alloted, for administration, leaving only 28% to the welfare recipients. I should think the American taxpayers would be more upset about that, than the fraction of a percent used by a small group of people to feed there children.
The Canadian Press
VANCOUVER -- Followers say Winston Blackmore, the leader of the controversial polygamous sect in Bountiful, B.C., has been arrested.
Details were not immediately available but B.C. Attorney General Wally Oppal and the RCMP have scheduled a news conference this afternoon in Vancouver.
Also Jim Oiler has been arrested, there will be a news conference this afternoon.
But, so far the charge is polygamy.
Rebekah-
Thanks :)
And yes, sometimes in some families (none I knew personally) it was considered "ok" to slight, be unfair or dishonest as long as the person receiving it was "apostate", "gentile", or "unfaithful" and the person giving it was "faithful".
Silver-
I originally wanted my call name to be ying- yang but that was taken. Thanks for that about the Dalli Lama.
MC-
No, the people at the YFZ will not use their money to help the people in Colorado City or Hildale because they at the YFZ have been "lifted up".
Warren does not care about the people in COlorado City any longer. He took the ones he liked to the YFZ and left the rest of them to their fate. BUt, they still pay him a tithing that is no longer 10% of their income, but a required and fixed sum monthly for every elder. If they do not pay they will be kicked out of the church for unfaithfulness and loose their wives and children.
Anon 01/07 @ 10:19 &10:56-
What happened to you was wrong. You deserve to be treated kindly with respect and tenderness.
Uncaduff-
I think you are right.
Can I work for the government too? :D
wow- they arrested 'Uncle' Wink huh? Hope his and Jim's wives have what they need until their husbands come home. If they come home.
Wow--and the democrats want to tax the wealthy because the government knows better than wealthy businesesmen how to manage money!
bbgae,if you have a job, you do work for the government. from jan. first to may fifteenth. then you get to spend the rest yourself.
you all spill untruth. Uncle WArren loved every one. Winston Blackmore is a crimnal. I know nothing about Jim Oler. I hardly doubt the government would charge a person with Polygamy. They would have to find some one to blanket an inacent person with abuse charges. And then the guilt would fall upon the person who lied, and the truth would eat them up. We all were taught to be honest. It is too bad you were not.....
thank You for telling me that being robbed was wrong. I know it. This man is not here any longer. He will for-ever be paying his debt. this is too, 1;07 653 poster
I remember Laurene Jessop stating during a interview, that all the sister wives would file as single mothers to bring in more income.
Rest Ruthie, we all know what you have gone through. Val is gone.
Anon 1:08, Blackmore and Oler have been charged with polygamy, nothing else. Warren Jeffs has been charged with multiple crimes against minors. It would certainly appear that he has broken the laws of the land. At least one of his underaged wives gave birth while too young, legally, to consent to either marriage or sex. I guess it's in God's hands now. If he wants Warren Jeffs to continue to lead the FLDS now would be a good time for a miracle.
anyone know who Naomi Carlise is?
ya, your images of deception are very well done.... do you realize how many people would die, from truth, if it was told. Oh, no there has to be the deception. How else would we get along.
you talk of young girls like they are your property. Saying they are too young to consent; yet in your world girls consent all the time, and it is winked at..... remeber when you are dealing with life, it is very special. girls are people. they have a right to freedom. they ahve a right to choices.
and as far as leading the people, you wrest the scriptures. We are in the day of visitation...and you mock.......Just like in the Bible, and the Book of Mormon. Who then is bigger than the Lord? Who then can stop the rivers, and hold the rain? Who of you can stop your journey into the next world? Who then of you can keep justace from claiming her own? Who of you can build the world, and set the sun in the heaven's? Who of you can undo what you have done? how many were hurt? who will be healed? even if I had died out there on your streets, and was just a nothing like I am; who of you could stay the Lord's hand?
the very saddest thing about my life, is that I lived......just think how many people would not have been hurt, if I had not survived.......Just think how horrible it was that I was born.....
Anonymous 1:43
That's funny, I think YOU talk like the girls arou YOUR property, to do with as you will. Frankly, if you care about them then why not allow them to grow up and make their own choices? I really can't understand the issue. If your young children are SO much more mature than those of the rest of the world, then why haven't you been marrying off your mature 14, 15, etc. boys? Or is it only the girls who are mature?
Personally, your words ring with the same self deceit and self serving tone of those of pedophiles. In fact, in their internet presence they say pretty much the exact same thing you do, except that they feel that ALL children of ALL ages should be considered "mature" enough to consent to sex.
What I see in the constant refrain that OUR girls are old enough to marry and become mothers is:
1) You are desperately afraid of allowing them to fully mature both physically and cognitively.
2) You have no respect for the physical risks young mothers are subject to.
3) You don't care about what's best for the girls, only for keeping them under your control and breeding.
If the girls are truly mature then they can wait a few years to finish growing up. Only people who want to use them and lock them into a lifestyle that they might not choose for themselves when adults would deny them that choice.
Just for the record, while I could never, in a million years, enter into a polyganist lifestyle, I do not begrudge any ADULT woman making the choice to do so. I do begrudge, deeply, when the family and religious leaders take advantage of a young girl's lack of experience and maturity to rush her into a marriage and motherhood, however.
Anonymous 2:00
I have battled depression in my life. Mine probably doesn't have as many difficult life experiences to fuel it as yours seems to. Please tell me, is there anything I can do to help? I know no one can make everything all better, but it hurts my heart to see your posts so full of defeat and pain. My profile is active and I have an active e-mail on it. Please let me know if there is anything I can do.
I will pray for you.
Winston Blackmore a criminal,eh? And Warren Jeffs isn't? Yes Winston and Jimmy are being charged with polygamy. I have had my personal beefs with Winston, but I have never seen a man help other people more than he does. He has done so much for the people up here in Canada. He has helped me and my children personally, when we were in need. Warren has done nothing but leave a trail of destruction behind him. So if I had to choose the better man I'd say Winston in a heartbeat! He definately is just a human being, like the rest of us, and I know he would help any of you who ever needed it. That is how I judge a person.
Anonymous
I don't know who you are, but you seem very sad, and forlorn. If this is what FLDS have done to you, by following their doctrines, Im very sorry.
Everyone continually talks about the girls. Why does no one ever talk about the boys? The boys are as much a gift to a parent as the girls.
To me FLDS to me is like an ant farm. Only difference is in an ant farm you have a queen bee.
In Flds you have a Prophet, to whom all the people, men women and children belong to like property.
Just like an ant farm, when the queen bee is finished with a worker bee, and there are MANY worker bees, they are killed, or die.
Flds Prophet, Uses his workers, (men and boys) to do the work, and the workers whom the Prophet decides are good enough, or work hard enough, he gets rid of, including young boys.
In an Ant Farm the queen bee keeps getting pregnant, laying eggs for more worker bees.
In Flds without the girls, the Prophet and his Control would cease to exist.
The boys are disposable, the girls aren't. Thats why when the boys leave or are kicked out, parents don't bother looking for them. They are expendable.
Very sad to me, very devastating to know in the society we have today, this can happen!
Shall we deal in facts or rumors?
Winston Blackmore married Lorraine Johnson when she was 15 and a journalist recorded her father Ray Johnson discussing how she arrived up there. At that time, Jane was Winston's only legal wife. Under Canada law, the age of consent being 16, includes that the male partner not exheed 24 months the girls senior, nor be is a position of authority over her. Winston was the Bishop and her priesthood councilor, if she was a student in Bountiful, he ran that school with Merril Palmer.
When she gave birth to her child, Winston's first wife Jane ran the birthing center and made a record of that date of birth.
Since Terrence Robertson is aware of this, I think the issue goes way beyond Polygamy and into a selective view of Gods laws vs the law in Canada. Seperating CHURCH & state, religion does not permit only religious people to break the law in the beliefs of their religion.
I agree it is very sad the way some things are. If I was as content as an ant or a bee, that would be beautiful. If I was a flower, how great would have been that day. And as to the person who spoke of Winston...glory be. There is some one for every one. Just keep him there away from me.
You do not know a thing about our boys. I would just as soon that you do not. There has been as many tears shed by the Mother's for the sons who go away as any girls. As far as I can tell, there are some people who like segragation. There are no lost boys in America. What a rediculous Idea. There are a lot of people, and some may need help, and some may not; but talk about the boys.....what are your boys doing?
Anonymous 10:40
I don't know you at all. But I have read some of the stories of the boys who left Flds or were kicked out. Im sure mother's have shed tears, but their tears are meaningless unless they actually love their boys enough to allow them to contact them, which many mothers don't.
Rules for children are fine, unless they are totally oppressive rules. Children are God's gift to parents, They are loaned to the parents to Love and Raise. Children never belong to us completely, God intended for them leave the mother and father, and take a wife and cleave to the wife and begin their own family.
Flds have lost MANY boys to the world because they refused to allow them to become young men, to make decisions on their own, whether mistakes or not. Without mistakes in life, none of us learn anything. Mistakes can make us stronger and our faith grow.
Winston is likable, generous and most certainly a moderate next to Warren Jeffs, but in Canada, is he really responsible in protecting women and children?
Polygamy challenged in Canada will look at the compelling interest of protecting women and children above religous rights.
The Canada Courts stated the compelling need to protect women and children could override what is permitted under the umbrella of religious FREEDOM.
From Winton's own blog comes the story of Vanessa Rohbock so sinful Warren wanted to claim "blood atonement" for her. In the RCMP investigation as it occured,
Winston denied that the practise was ever taught by the FLDS, nor was this same girl ever threatened by it.
Here are the links;
http://www.sharethelight.ca/north%20star21.pdf below
"1. The Vanessa Rohbock story."
"Vanessa was on two different antidepressant
drugs, and should be considered potentially suicidal"
" in that she very narrowly missed being sacrificed for a heathen
whim."
http://www.sharethelight.ca/north%20star22.pdf
http://www.sharethelight.ca/north%20star23.pdf
http://www.sharethelight.ca/north%20star25.pdf
"There is nothing left for her to do but to come and have her blood shed for the
remission of her sins"
"You and Ron, (her father) are instructed to pray night and day for the
Lord to destroy her from off the face of the earth"
I think that given Winston's own details of a minor at risk, suggests that the government of Canada should protect such children as Vanessa Rohbock.
At the time of these rumors, I had filed a complaint with the Boundary County sheriff, who contacted the RCMP, who was told by Winston in his interview that neither the girl was at risk, nor was this tenent of faith ever taught! The coverup and truth, detailed by Winston in his own blog, suggests that children do need protection and that even religious leaders can LIE!
The doctrine of "blood atonement" is detailed in Rulon Jeffs book "Purity in the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" pages 65 to 72.
You must understand why the Lord has allowed this day of judgment. Drugs for woman is unheard of. You must read scriptures right. Who has the right to judgment. The Lord alone, has this right. Winston Blackmore is a crimnal if there ever was one. You can not put smooth, talking, gospel to back up the destruction of peoples lifes. I know that a lot of people think Winston is nice. but that is because no one really wanted to tell the truth, and a lot of people have been hurt by untruths! IT is as simple as that. Here we have scriptures; as you sow, so shall you reap. That is the law of justace. Can you say that you can smoke and not inhale this aroma? There you have your justace. I never really did get aquainted with Winston, except I went to his house once. I seen a lot that day. He is a crimnal if there ever was one. I never would never read Winstons writings. Why should I? I have the Bible and the Book of MOrmon. I do not need compelled. The thing that is weird to me, is if they prosicuted every crimnal, they would have to build a city as big as America. What with the drugs and the Polygamists and the Fundamental Mormons, and every thing that goes on. All law is any how, is some one assulting another. Good luck in your protection gig. For who is protecting who. Us from the protectors or us from the abusers? who? who? who? then is your friend or your enemy? that is the question? The media, The government? or the men who abused? figure that out and let me know?
Why are there so many half-insane people posting on this topic on the internet.
"There are a lot of people, and some may need help, and some may not; but talk about the boys.....what are your boys doing?"
My son is married to a truly amazing woman (far too good for him, the lucky dog) and the father of two (going on three) beautiful children. One of his children has autism and he is a very loving and supportive parent to both of his boys. His wife loves him dearly. He's doing wonderfully by any normal standard. How are your boys?
Honestly, Silver, I think fundamentalists of any religion are half-insane simply from trying to believe in an extreme religion. Virtually every fundamental religion claims 1) They are the One True Church, 2) They have the only True Knowledge from God (or the universe, whatever) and 3) They are better than everyone else.
Since most people know in their hearts that they can't REALLY know what the One True anything is, and they also know they are just as fallible and human as the next person, the mental gymnastic they have to go through to cling to their beliefs in the absence of any proof or logical reason tends to lead towards extremes. (And then there are those who have left whatever fundamental religion it is who show extremes in negativity because they feel betrayed by that faith). Craziness should be expected in such situations.
To all FLDS, Winstonites, and Warrenites. YOU are your own worst enemy. Your infighting and name calling has allowed your enemies to divide and conquer. Canada has arrested both Jim Oler and Winton Blackmore, perhaps you should stop fighting each other and unite to face your common enemies.
A HOUSE DIVDED CANNOT STAND!
Sorry guys, my computer got a bug and I just got it fixed.
Anon 1/13 @2:03-
I know for a fact that 'Aunt' Martha prescribed anti-depressants for anyone she thought needed it and I remember it being mentioned over the pulpit on Sunday twice about her, "Handing out 'keep sweet' pills."
Silver- there's always one person who likes to stir up trouble- My guess is it's the same person over and over.
AND>>>> Canada is a different country than the USA and they can totally arrest a man for polygamy if they want to where the US has been hesitant because of the first amendment to the constitution.
Is Warren Jeffs still considered to be "The Prophet" and the leader of FLDS even though he is in prison?
Angel
I still can't understand how these people still want to believe Jeffs. Now tell me one thing. Was Warren lying when he told them he was the prophet, or when he told them he was not the prophet?
Anonymous 6:25, I'm not an FLDS supporter but I feel compelled to point out that Warren Jeffs could have been wrong in either case and still be telling the truth as he knows it. My understanding is that most of the FLDS still consider him their prophet and believe that what he said in prison was the result of a mental breakdown and possibly medication he was taking.
bbgae; In my opinion you will find very little difference between the USA first amendment and part of Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. below is just a portion of that charter.
Constitution Act, 1982
Enacted as Schedule B to the Canada Act 1982 (U.K.) 1982, c. 11, which came into force on April 17, 1982
PART I
Canadian charter of rights and freedoms
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms
Rights and freedoms in Canada 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
Fundamental Freedoms
Fundamental freedoms 2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association.
Anon 02/02 @ 10:23-
Thank you for that.
In that case, the FLDS may have a very good case against the government for arresting them for polygamy.
And I would think those Canadians who aren't polygamous or FLDS would me angry about what has happened.
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
When the preamble to this charter is such a strong statement for religous freedoms I can't see it going any other way.
Well Canada clearly needs to reconcile the freedom of religion issue and the acceptance of the UN's denouncement of polygamy as being a practice that is inherently demeaning to women. Actually, polygamy isn't but male driven polgyany definitely is.
Any judgment for or against such lifestyle should be based upon participants' actions and attitudes not the practice itself.
I have seen many cases where it works well; I have also seen the negative side. All men and women need to look deeper into their own future desires before they make such a commitment.
The job of Terrence Robertson can't be easy! But here is another question, if polygamy were legal, then how many? Some subscribe to 3 connected wives, others have adapted that to 7! Knudson in Centennial Park has close to 30, at one time Blackmore had 26 counting his first wife Jane. Warren most believe has more than 100! If legal? Then how many?
The reason those in Texas were not committing welfare fraud, was that having 50 children allow for government aide under the law. If you were George Clooney and you wanted 500 wives, would that be OK and worse can or should society or taxpayers foot the bill?
Oler was married to one of Truman Barlow's granddaughters when she was 16 almost 17. Why hasn't Canada brought charges for this, is it polygamy they hate or Winston??
Anon; 2/07/2009 6:31 AM
They would firstly have to find and have proof of a criminal activity.
A question if Canada allowed polygamy, then how many? 3 wives, 7 wives, 19 wives, how about 100 or even 1,000? A scripture created in the last few hundred years by one sect states 3 connected wives. Rumors that another scripture indicates 7, but Warren & Winston didn't stop at 3 0r 7?
Where society picks up the bill, Winstons 108 children under one Canada law receive benefits legally. If there was no limit, think of the benefit of having 500 children supported in part by government.
Many fanatical leaders would reintroduce the "pure seed" doctrine where only they are chosen to breed and creat a progeny. The "work or "principle" did not remain true, the doctrine like the constitution has continued to change under both Warren & Winston.
Who would decide how many? The man who makes the rules can change the rules!
He said;
Anonymous said...
Oler was married to one of Truman Barlow's granddaughters when she was 16 almost 17. Why hasn't Canada brought charges for this, is it polygamy they hate or Winston??
2/07/2009 6:31 AM
____________________
The 3 wives don't include a graddaughter of Truman, so what are you saying, he has a 4th wife?
Anonymous said...
anyone know who Naomi Carlise is?
1/09/2009 11:57 AM
If you mean Naomi Carslile (?) She is the daughter of Orvil and Naoma Johnson and married Elmo C.
Post a Comment