Tuesday, September 23, 2008

consider this

On Brooke Adams' blog, "the plural life",(ban on polygamy).
someone calling him, or herself, "maymunah'" gives a well thought out discussion on reasons not to legalize polygamy. even taking the premise that "it is a commandment of God," his argument still holds water.

48 comments:

Anonymous said...

Even though or maybe because I grew up in a polygamous family; I feel legalization would be very wrong. I do however feel decriminalizing this way of life is the way to go, but the laws against underage (should be changed to under 21) cohabitation need to be strongly enforced. Each and every way of life has it's own horror stories, but when you are a product of a way of life, how can you agree that it can be wrong for you to exist?

Rebeckah said...

A link to the argument in question would be nice. I can't imagine a way to legalize polygamy and still protect vulnerable women and children. Even though there is research that indicates that female driven polygamy has a neutral or positive effect on women and children, how the heck can you be sure it's female driven? The FLDS insist that the women are not "forced" and that they all have free choice, but how can they? If they say no they lose everything, family, friends and support group. That's a pretty potent weapon of force. Also, since a man, whichever prophet running the show at the moment, mandates marriages it can hardly be considered "female driven". Female driven would be women coming to their husband and saying, "Sweetie, I've found the perfect woman for us." If I remember correctly at least one family in the FLDS did that and were soundly scolded for it.

Anonymous said...

Actually Rebeckah, it was Ross Chatwin and he was kicked out for it. His wife found a friend on the internet, and got to know her, and approached her with the idea. She told Ross about it, and after awhile, he approached the prophet about it,, next thing you know, Ross Chatwin was excommunicated.

Anonymous said...

5 more indictments were handed down by the grand jury today.

Updated 3:30 p.m Sept. 23, 3008
Schleicher County Grand Jurors investigating alleged criminal activity at the YFZ Ranch met Tuesday, September 23, 2008 and issued 5 felony indictments involving three individuals. The three were each indicted on one cout of Sexual Assualt of a Child. Two of the subjects were also indicted on a charge of Felony Bigamy. The indictments remain sealed until the suspects are in custody

Anonymous said...

I read Benjamin Bistlines book last year, this man has a sharp mind and kept journals I guess like most Flds do. He pretty much tells it like it was, and is today.

Anonymous said...

I know Ben, he is a brilliant man. You might be interested to learn that after he wrote his book the FLDS community drove Ben and his family out of town. They then bulldozed his house, dug a deep hole and buried it. The lot where it stood remains vacant today as testimony to how Warren Jeffs and his followers feel about anyone who dares to tell the truth.

Anonymous said...

OMG, how horrible!!! Why don't followers understand why this is wrong?
No one has a right to tear your house down, or drive someone out of town.:(

Anonymous said...

If God intended for plural marriage, why did he allow divorce?

This is for all you FLDS folks.

If polygamy became legal in itself would you continue to take sisters as wives?

Leviticus 18:9 "Do not have sexual relations with you sister, either your father's daughter or your mothers' daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere".

Leviticus 18:18 "Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living".

Making a polygamy legal would be an interesting project, to say the least.

Rebeckah said...

Well, I found the article and the argument against legalizing Polygamy. I too found it pretty well thought out and valid. (I also found the outrage expressed by the pro-polygamists there amusing. Their arguments seem to boil down to; men are weak creatures unable to resist straying, so it should be okay, God said I could (apparently through Brigham Young) so it should be okay, or I want to, so it should be okay.) I think the big issue isn't polygamy but the closed society of the FLDS and other groups accused of abuses. Truthfully, I don't care what consenting adults choose to do. The reality is that people within the FLDS would be unable to continue their abuses if there were more access to the rest of the world. More girls would leave because they'd know they have options. More questions would be asked when girls drop out of school. Physical abuses would be harder to hide and victims of sexual abuse would have the chance of finding someone outside the group to confide in. More and more I feel the real solution is simply going to be to mandate a federal law that the age of marriage (without a judge's permission) is 18 and that enclosed compounds and homeschooled children will be evaluated on a regular basis. The real problem is that the men have no checks or balances on their behavior and the women and children, as always, suffer for it.

Anonymous said...

10:45

Have you ever read "An Open Letter to Dr. Laura"? Google it if you want to start quoting the bible.

Anonymous said...

There can be no arguement as to people living within this type of lifestyle, as long as they are living within their own beliefs they will continue. The laws and attitudes have to change, the abuses of power have to be stopped.
Child protection laws have the power to maintain a close watch on these issues. Without abusing this power they should be allowed access to closed societies without a warrant. This is happening and everyone, particularly the children, needs the protection and freedoms quaranteed by laws and the constitution.

Anonymous said...

Just consider this; Congress shall make no law against religion. Then I would suppose every state, is subject to law. Plural Marriage has been in existance since the days of Adam, and will continue to the end of the earth. Why would you all fight against the law, by trying to tell me what to believe in or how to worship? I notice when it gets to your believes you jump up and down, and do what ever you want, and if you do not like the constitution, you make laws to fit your personal needs. Try it like this; It is illegal to make a law against religion! We already won this battle with the Cival War and the establishment of our Nations laws. It just remains to this one thing! UpHold the law!

Rebeckah said...

Hear, hear! Anon 2:37

Anon 3:07, if you paid attention all we're saying is that religion cannot be used to justify child abuse. You want to marry multiple women (or be in a marriage with multiple partners) then bully for you. As long as you and every other participant consenting adults then it's none of my business. I think you'll find that the majority of American's feel the same way. However the closed environment of many of these religious communities (and yes Colorado City and Hillsdale are also closed communities) allow abuse to breed. Since I've seen over and over again that the FLDS do not abuse children, have decided to stop underagaed marriages (which I'll believe when I see and not before) and want to do nothing but live sweet and law abiding lives, I don't see what the issue is. Allowing access within these communities will be a big step to preventing situations like Carolyn and Flora. I doubt either of them would be as devoted and vocal to the cause of exposing the FLDS if their father hadn't sexually abused them. In a more open society, he would have found it harder to do so. In fact, he might have even had enough of a conscience not to.

Anonymous said...

Actually what that means Anon3:37
Is Congress shall not make any law requiring a certain religion.
It has nothing to do with laws against abuse IN a religion.
The constitution is meant for protection, with laws back it up.
The constitution forbid government to enforce any religion on anyone.
But, it also never said it wouldnt enforce laws against those in a religious organization who willingly break the laws of the state or federal government.

Anonymous said...

Why not quote the Bible!

Joseph Smith would of been lost if he did not have the Bible to plagerize.

If you want to travel the polygamy path and love to point out the men of old who practice it.

I guess they had rules too.

You can't have it both ways.

OK, lets quote the Inspired Version of the Bible.

CHAPTER 18
Unlawful marriages -- Unlawful lusts.

17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen; it is wickedness.

18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, besides the other in her life-time.

WHOOPS HE FORGOT TO HIT THE DELETE BUTTON!

bbgae said...

ok- hold on everybody! Let us make polygamy legal! I completely disagree with all of you and here's why:

1.Don't you understand that the only way they can control it is if they make it legal? i.e. you can have another wife, but she has to be 21 and have other options placed before her. You can have another wife and apply for state medical , financial help, but you have to follow our rules...(oh! look at that! There went welfare fraud! out the window! hmmm...)

2. Abuses aside- and ya, I experienced some myself so don't go there with me- there are good and bad people anywhere in the world. Do you really think the polygamous people who do it right (marry into polygamy of their own free choice and after 18) deserve to be discriminated against because of their abusive counterparts? THIS IS AMERICA people! EVERYONE has the right to have rights! i, for one would like to see them enjoy the same rights I enjoy. What is so wrong about that?

Anonymous said...

bbgae,

You're dead right on item 1.
Fear of the law is their most powerful controlling device.
---
I wrote this about three years back on Pligabuse board...maybe some of you might get a kick out of it:
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In response to Troy's dilemma I've come up with a few ideas on how I would approach the law and polygamy.

First of all, polygamy will never be legalized in the United States, or at least not in our lifetimes. The reasons? Well just to long to list. However, as history has already proven it is just as difficult to prosecute. To force consenting adults to break up a relationship that hurts no one but themselves, just ain't going to happen. You can forget about both but... Some laws backed by good ol' common sense could easily limit those who wish to abuse the system....for whatever it's worth here's what I think would help.

three points that even our legal system can swallow...
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1. "common law divorce" -- It has been proven that regardless whether any two adults have a legal marriage or not, the mere fact of cohabitation is enough to invoke marital status. It called "common law marriage". Well how about "common law divorce". Currently the law still is one man/one woman so if a person espoused to one person then extends themselves to another with knowledge to all parties, the first marriage should become invalid in the eyes of the law. Thus the original (in this case the wife) spouse automatically becomes divorced and has rights as does any divorcee. In fact they should have more. They should get immediate rights to half of all assets, full custody of their own children and exclusive possession of the primary residence. If the husband (in this case) wants to contest it, well fine, do like the rest of the poor souls who get devoured by their ex's, hire a lawyer and wait your turn in line at court. Might say it's a little unfair? Too bad; Play this nasty little game...pay the consequences if you screw it up.
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2. "no playin' house with the kiddies" -- Under no circumstance should an adult cohabitate, co-impregnate or co-sexualate (yes, i know they're not words ) with two or more other parties in which anyone of the parties is under the age of 18. It should be a felony and off to jail you should go. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. That not only goes for polygs but everyone else like maybe some want-a-bee rock stars who think they're hot shit and shack up with a couple of underage groupies. Forget about statutory rape...say hello to "sexual predator". Yes, there are laws similar but with silly play by the numbers games. Make it simple and don't waste any ink. Plus it ought to make all parties over 18 accountable...yeah, including the other wives. (...give them one more thing to get pissed off about when they get tossed out of the masterbed for a "keep sweet" little 16 year old brat)
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3. "arranged marriage" -- Arranged marriage is one of those nasty things that kids hear about in fairy tales and stories from the past. They take great comfort that this sort of crap no longer happens today in a free country such as ours. Think again little kiddies... It stills exists right here in the US of A, in both domestic and imported variations with both adult and child versions. The adult version? well who cares...whether you join up with reverend moon or win some hot bimbo on a TV reality show, to each to his(her) own, but.. When comes to children, the legal system should/must take note. First point is, how to define an "(illegal) arranged marriage"? Just say, for instance, a father gets excited about a young man he knows or meets and insists that he would be a perfect husband for his near adulthood daughter. The young man agrees and the daughter feels compelled to grant her father's wishes and also agrees and submits. Now even throw in the fact that they're all Muslim and feel this is the appropriate way to demonstrate their faith. Call "foul"? Maybe not. While the daughter may have some legitimate civil claims against her parents if the marriage sours, the law really would struggle to intervene. Not unless there was, say, a third party involved? A third party such as a cult leader, religious committee, community, or any other kind of organization, or just say "Joe promises his daughter to Bob, Bob promises his daughter to Ray and Ray in turn sends his daughter to Joe"? Something fishing going on here? By it's legal name it's called "conspiracy". In this case "conspiracy to espouse a minor"...even sounds nasty. I don't care how hard you scream "religious freedom", "conspiracy" will ultimately drown your voices out. In fact conspiracy is so obvious in this situation that why lawmakers aren't busy enacting it even without laws on the books is completely beyond me. Are they really that naive? Did 1953 knock their lights out so bad that 50 years later there's still no response? Or do they really care?...beats me
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Yeah, I know I'm sure someone already thought of all this but I thought I spit it out anyway (not to mention, I had fun writing it too), but as far I'm concerned if these three points were on the legal books and you don't play with children, you all can polygamize to your heart's content....


---------
keep sweet texas
stg

bbgae said...

Beautiful piece, stg.

Anonymous said...

Tony Alamo was arrested about 2hrs ago in Arizona on violating the MANN Act.
6 underage girls are going to give testimony monday according to FBI who arrested Alamo in Arizona today.

Anonymous said...

IN RETURN FOR A GUILTY PLEA FOR SEXUALLY ASSAULTING THREE GIRLS, AGES 6,8 AND 10 AND ANOTHER GIRL WHEN SHE WAS 6 YEARS OLD 15 YEARS AGO, THE BISHOP OF THE CHURCH MAY BE GETTING PROBATION IF A PSYCHO-SEXUAL EXAMINATION IS SATISFACTORY.

ARE WE TALKING ABOUT ANYBODY ON THE RANCH?

NAH! THIS IS AN LDS BISHOP WHICH MAKES THE MOLESTATION DIFFERENT. BESIDES, BARBIE AIN’T THE JUDGE OR THE DUDE WOULD GET THE CHAIR FOR BEING A MORMON ANYWAY.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10554115

I ALSO WANT TO BRING TO YOUR ATTENTION THE CAKEWALK ACROSS THE ENTIRE ARTICLE. THE STORY WAS VERY CAREFUL NOT TO PRINT ONE PEJORATIVE COMMENT DURING THE ENTIRE PIECE. THE DESERET NEWS IN FACT DIDN’T EVEN CARRY THE STORY.

The LDS is a breakaway sect of the FLDS Church. The FLDS has not been affiliated with the LDS for almost 100 years.

Anonymous said...

Thank You very Much! The Mormon church has turned from all of the gospel.

Anonymous said...

Yes Desert News did carry the story of the LDS Bishop. Learn to read!

Anonymous said...

--- LATEST NEWS ---
Updated 2:15 p.m Sept. 29, 2008
Three men indicted last week by Schleicher County grand jurors surrendered themselves this morning at the county jail then promptly posted bail and were released. Abram Harker Jeffs, 27, and Lehi Barlow Jeffs, aka Lehi Barlow Allred, 29, were booked into jail charges of Sexual Assault of a Child and Bigamy. Meanwhile, Keith William Dutson Jr., 23, was jailed on a charge of Sexual Assault of a Child. All the charges are 1st Degree felonies.

Representatives of the Texas Attorney General's office and Texas Rangers were at the jail. So were bail bond agents who posted surety bonds for the men's release. Abram Harker Jefs and Lehi Barlow Jeffs, aka Lehi Barlow Allred, were each released on $110,000.00 bond. Dutson was freed on a $100,000.00 bond.

bbgae said...

wow- wonder where they got all that money to bail them out.....

Anonymous said...

I an new to this blog but want to thank everyone for sharing their thoughts. Especially individuals who are practicing plural marriage speaking publically can create a risk. I am a licensed therapist in southern utah serving the colorado city/hildale area. I have no opinion over the legalization or the practice of polygamy. Ethically, I do stand against any kind of abuse. If you or anyone you know in the area needs support of any kind-whether actively practicing or not. please give them my e-mail. Anyone is free to contact me for more information about what I do. chelsea.gambles@familysupportcenter.org

Anonymous said...

Poor Texas. Poor Texas. I actually thought for a minuet, you was going to arrest some crimnal's. The real one's. Poor, Poor Texas!

Anonymous said...

I read the names again, this is Lehi Barlow, Abram Harker, and [this Dutson]; If they was only Jeffs, because their mother married someone with that name, Maybe I am wrong, and Texas is right. Yesterday, I was going to praise Texas, because of some good things. I am not sure about these men. If they are guilty, I say; GO TEXAS GO. There are just a few more waiting thier turn to get caught, but it felt like for awhile only honest one's were getting arrested.

Anonymous said...

I guess I am disapointed. I thought it was going to be some people, I know for sure are crimnal's.

Anonymous said...

One great thing happened. The safty net got it's budget cut in half. Wow, I am rejoicing over this. It is too bad the government does not cut the other half of thier funding. Then there will be no more harrassment. No more insults. Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah! The only sad part is that they said for now it will not affect them. Too bad. That is a lot of tax payer's money that is totally wasted! How sad, they only cut half! How glad they at least DID cut half.....

Anonymous said...

Don't dispair Anon 11:22. Grand jury investigations ususally target the small fry first, then they go after the leaders at the top. It's a time-proven technique that works well for digging out criminal bosses who try to insulate themselves from prosecution. This grand jury has another 3 months to go and will be followed by another one, and another one, and another one.

uncaduff said...

9/30/2008 11:06 AM
I would like to run something by you, your being a therapist and all.
I have felt Ive noticed a tendency in women who were married very young,
to be impaired in certain aspects of there lives, as they grow older. they seem to fail to mature in some areas of there lives. is this true are am I imagining things?

Rebeckah said...

Anonymous, I'd just like to point out that any adult, male or female, who has sexual relations with a minor is a criminal, regardless of their name. Jeffs, Barlow, or Kennedy, it's still a crime to have sex with children. I'm betting the girls involved had children as minors, which makes it child abuse as well. No religious beliefs can justify breaking the law.

Anonymous said...

well, I am still disapointed. How is Texas holding up after that storm. Maybe the state could fund them, instead of the safty net.

Anonymous said...

We appreciate ya'lls concern, but Texas ain't Louisiana and Galveston ain't New Orleans. We'll be just fine. Around here we don't sit and whine waitin' for somebody to come help us out.

Tall Tex

Anonymous said...

Duff, I think you are right about that. Though I am not any trained professional, It would only make sense when a person surrenders an ability, like decision making or a physical or developmental ability, that ability may cease to grow.

Anonymous said...

I do not uphold abuse. That is why I was hoping a real crimnal was the one arrested. Poor Texas. I am glad you do not expect help, and you are not smitten entirly by a storm. Catch you later. Shucks, I was hoping they would arrest some real crimnals.

Anonymous said...

There are Grand Jury hearings again in November and December. I have a feeling Merrill Jessop and Wendell Neilson will be on the next list for performing marriages on 2006 to underage girls.
Undacuff, I agree with you on emotional level of children in FlDS. We got a taste of that, when Merrianne Jessop Jeffs was moved into foster home. Shes 14yrs old, but her emotional attitude was that of a much younger child.

WC said...

A person's beliefs CAN justify breaking the law! Ask Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, Martin King Jr., etc. It's called civil disobedience. I do not condone abuse, but laws that are passed based on some state's ego to persecute an unpopular group of people is quite an ugly thing.

bbgae said...

Uncaduff and Anon 1:35-
I think you are right in this assessment- but I do not think it is just the ones who married you- lack of social skills and lack of decision making abilities are two of the main traits of the lost boys and a few others who leave the FLDS culture.


Tall Tex- Hooray for you! :) I like Texas already.

Rebeckah said...

Laws are also passed based on increased human knowledge of the cognitive functions of human beings at various stages in their lives. These men marrying barely pubescent girls do NOT compare to heroes who have stood up do oppressive regimes in the past. If these little girls are old enough to be married for eternity, then just why aren't you marrying off the little boys too? I'm sure their sperm is viable at 13 and 14 years of age. Undoubtedly they should be producing children for "God" too!

uncaduff said...

but I do not think it is just the ones who married you-"""""""

bbgae--- ahhh,,,,, I didn't mean the ones that married me.....
:D

Anonymous said...

rebeckah, enlighten us on those men (heros) who stood up to repressive regimes, I would like to kick your ass on their characters, as well as some others of the top political figures throughout the years and what ages their wives where when they married them, go ahead, I have the list ready.

Rebeckah said...

Uncaduff, you crack me up. lol

FYI, I was married too young at 18 but it was not in a polygamous environment and it WAS of my own choice. Oddly enough, I was perfectly ready to be a mother but even now I am not ready to be a wife. Perhaps I should have looked for a polygamous husband who would have given me children and then gone away and left me alone to raise them. ;D

Anonymous said...

0/01/2008 11:24 AM
sir, or madam.
unless your own character will endure close scrutiny,you may do well to use due caution in condemning others who may have made different life choices than yourself.

Bluebeard

bbgae said...

LOL- Thanks Uncaduff :D

Hey, Rebeckah- I like you.

Anonymous said...

Bluebeard, I dont beleive a 12yr old has enough knowledge or wisdom to make marriage choices. And Evidently the law agrees with me.

Anonymous said...

And Evidently the law agrees with me.0/01/2008 8:42 PM

as do I.

Bluebeard.

Angel said...

and I

Angel