Tuesday, April 08, 2008

WORK CREWS WITH JACKHAMMERS ENTER COMPOUND

whats with this, are the Romans going to destroy the temple and lay waste to the "New Jerusalem"?

114 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is your life so shallow, meaningless, and full of bitterness, that you get joy out of this Uncaduff?

Anonymous said...

If they need the jackhammers I would guess the level of cooperation is not quite as reported

Anonymous said...

Wow, this place is anything BUT a New Jerusalem. As to laying waste to the place. We could only hope.

Anonymous said...

don't know about the Romans, but the feds are on the scene now.

Anonymous said...

My best guess is that the jackhammers are to help look for bodies under newly poured/recent concrete.

Pretty simple.

If you know the structure of that architectural monstrosity aka the temple, please post a floor plan or aerial photograph.

My bet is that that is where they are looking.

Anonymous said...

These people are famous for making caves and secret tunnels to hid children. I bet thats what they are looking for.

uncaduff said...

"Lawmen open safe in a residence at yfz, said to be collecting evidence."

theres your jackhammer work, would be my guess.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:32 you're displaying sensationalism at it's finest.

I'd be willing to bet my own life that they don't find any dead bodies in anything other than properly marked graves.

You people make me sick. You know very little facts and a lot of speculation and you run your mouth off.

Historic Moment said...

Dead bodies? This isn't David Koresh or the mob we're talking about, I find it doubtful that the temple is covering dead bodies. And anything at this point is just jumping to conclusions...

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:23...why don't you enlighten us? I do belive 10:32 is out of line. But with all the secrets kept and with the people that have left the FLDS saying nothing very positive about the FLDS, why do you think that we speculate?

I have always believed that if they weren't so secretive then they would be left alone. But when rumors and calls claim child abuse it's kind of hard not to speculate. Why wouldn't the FLDS want to share what they know with others if it is all so wonderful?

Historic Moment said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Not to mention the joy and judgment that comes from those who only know what the media keep saying.

Any word and who was arrested and what the charges were?

--fax

ps. who remains in CC these days. Outcasts of the flds that were not invited to Zion?

Anonymous said...

uncaduff, i've been browsing this blog for about a year now and I was wondering if you have ever told your story in full or if you just discuss your experiences when relevant to the topic at hand. I enjoy your posts.

uncaduff said...

These people are famous for making caves and secret tunnels to hid children......

that just isn't true. sorry.

Anonymous said...

Dead bodies: David Koresh? no. Mob? yes. FLDS? no.

Caves and secret tunnels? I agree with uncaduff: FLDS? no. I would be surprised if they found people hiding in any such secret tunnels.

More likely, they are looking for records. Paper and electronic documents, etc...

Anonymous said...

Dead bodies: David Koresh? no. Mob? yes. FLDS? no.

Caves and secret tunnels? I agree with uncaduff: FLDS? no. I would be surprised if they found people hiding in any such secret tunnels.

More likely, they are looking for records. Paper and electronic documents, etc...

Anonymous said...

I would not be at all surprised if the cops found bodies.

The FLDS has been able to hid most of what was going on at the YFZ ranch. After all no one really even knows who is in charge now that Jeffs is in jail.

In addition, we know that Warren Jeffs taught “Blood Atonement”, and he asked Robert Richter to design a high temperature furnace that would be capable of destroying DNA evidence*.

When you add all these facts up, I think you have a good chance of finding bodies.

The problem may be who to charge with a crime (murder or otherwise). Let us say there are 30-50 men there. Do you charge all 30-50 with murder or child abuse? If you charge all the men does that include kids 14 and up and/or the women? Even if you wanted to, how do you prove they all participated in the crime when I doubt the majority of the FLDS would be willing to testify? I don’t envy the prosecutor in El dorado.

*Dougherty, John. "Wanted: Armed and Dangerous", November 10, 2005. http://phoenixnewtimes.com/Issues/2005-11-10/news/feature.html

Anonymous said...

"It appears that the culture and moral climate at the ranch is one in which young girls are conditioned to expect and accept sexual activity with adult men at the ranch." -- AP

...it appears Texas is playing hardball.

what's really ironic is that Polygamists like to quote rulings from Texas.
now they're going have a new one to deal with

keep sweet eldorado
stg

anyone want to start a pool on who's going to buy the ranch?

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:32 you're displaying sensationalism at it's finest.

I'd be willing to bet my own life that they don't find any dead bodies in anything other than properly marked graves.

----------------------------------

Properly marked graves ? Would anyone happen to know if there is a grave yard on the YFZ ranch ? If not , could anyone share some info where those who have died are laid to rest ? Seems the grave yard at Colorado City had some "interesting" dealings not that long ago . Thanks .

Historic Moment said...

"anyone want to start a pool on who's going to buy the ranch? "

Michael Jackson? Teehee (Sorry, probably in poor taste but it just came to mind)

Anonymous said...

Warren Jeffs did not tell me directly to build a furnace for destroying DNA. Charles Olds told me Mike Emack needed a furnace built and needed our help. I had no idea where Mike was at the time. It never crossed my mind it might be illegit because it came from Mike (I trusted Mike, but I was starting to get suspicious of Warren even then). Coming from Mike, I would have expected a steel mill before a crematory. I never got further with Charles than deciding a few circuit details with him when it then became an urgent need for radio scrambling. No one from Texas or anywhere else ever talked to me about a furnace; only Charles. Charles showed me an infrared sensor for the furnace that could sense up to 2700F and we needed to interface it to an SCR bank. He showed me a three-phase SCR bank he was using for controlling the heater. I was starting to think about how to interface to the SCR. I was pushing for a graphic LCD display and control, but Mike told Charles, "No, we need a lit LED because where it is going, it will be dark." (An LED is like an alarm clock with several figure 8's. A graphical LCD is like what you see at gas pumps with the little squares) Mike's only comment to me through it all is "we are working for a good cause, but I can't tell you anything, except that I was called on a mission."

What's odd is there wasn't as much secrecy on the furnace as there was on a silly rock cutting saw. I was admonished not to talk about it, but nowhere near the drilling I got on the rock cutting saw. Charles just quit asking me for help on it. I don't know if Charles finished it out on his own, or if Mike got in trouble for getting myself and Charles involved.

Please, guys, until we know absolutely that it was for something illegit, quit associating my name with a crematory. I have no proof of such a thing. John Doughtery blew a few interviews with my details and what Winston mentioned of Warren's obsession with Blood Atonement and made it sound like fact.

The timeline was autumn 2003.

Robert Richter

Anonymous said...

i don't care about polygamy, i feel if they want to put up with more than one woman then they can have at it. what does bother me is my taxes being used to support their sorry cheap ass to support to support all the children. also the fact they use their religion as a reason not to pay taxes. while i spend every other year of my life overseas for their freedoms.

uncaduff said...

thanks for that Robert, it's something thats needed doing for a long time. I think you and me both wonder how much other stuff has been blown out of proportion. funny how people forget there are real human beings involved in this, and just want a sensational story.

Anonymous said...

Robert I was in the room when you were saying that you were positive it was being used for a crematory.

Anonymous said...

Thank you both for being honest, UncaDuff, you've had a hard life in ways, Robert, you hit the nail on the head with the comments, I've found in general with all people, that those who accuse others of awful wrongs, accuse because those things are in their own hearts. The raid is wrong on so many levels, and you guys standing up for what is truth just helps people know that all is not as it is spinned by the media.

Anonymous said...

I cannot beleive the people who are making these comments.

Are you all blind to the big brother bull thats happening here.

One call does it all. Destroy
the lives of many children who have
a really good life.
Maybe some of them don't but why are they attacking hundreds of families. So if one of your reliatives is a dope dealer all of you are huh?

Anonymous said...

Finally!!!!

We're starting to get some posts without sensationalism.

We need more of these.

Anonymous said...

No, if a family member is a dope dealer not all of us are. But I damn sure think if someone in my house is dealing dope, the state should do everything it should to make sure my child was hurt by the dealing.

Anonymous said...

Let's put this in perspective. I had no thoughts of the furnace being used for anything wrong until after I left. Warren never did come to me and say "Let's build a furnace to blood atone people" After leaving, I talked a bit about a furnace that was a little fishy and people convinced me it was likely for a wrong purpose. One person said "I was in a conversation with Warren and he said 'Brethren, we have got to find a place and a means to blood atone those that need blood atoning.'" After hearing some of this, I became convinced. At this vulnerable time after leaving and your metabolic equilibrium is out of wack and common sense doesn't prevail, and you are willing to believe any rumor that comes along, the news media got ahold of me.

Robert Richter

Quiet & said...

Robert,

Thanks for taking the time to clarify and set the record straight.

I have sometimes wondered if some of the reason for the extreme secrecy was not only to gain more control over the people now, but to cause speculation by those not in the group, and then persecution based on that speculation. The more we (FLDS) are persecuted, the more we believe the end is coming and that the prophet is right, thus giving him more power and control. Kinda a self fulfilling prophesy.

Extreme persecution on our people was predicted by the leaders. If they are to be prophets, then the persecution must come. If you think about it, sensationalism of what is going on and jumping to wild conclusions only empowers those in control in the FLDS. It does nothing to help those who may have been wronged or suffered abuse.

Are those who come up with wild speculations and punishments for them really trying to help? If yes, then consider for a moment that what you are doing may actually be aiding the very problem you say you want to fix.

IITMOC

kli said...

I'm trying to figure out if the people commenting on this blog are all former FLDS or what. Because some of the comments are downright terrifying.

If these cult people were raping their pre-teen daughters, and grooming the boys for the same work, they deserve to be thrown in jail, and all of their work should be bulldozed.

This kind of community needs to be stamped out, so that future generations can make their own choices without being brainwashed. This whole thing is beyond revolting.

Anonymous said...

"Investigators determined that there is a widespread pattern and practice among the residents of Eldorado in which young minor female residents are conditioned to expect and accept sexual activity with adult men it said.
Many of the young girls are subjected to abuse and forced to have sex with older men and boys. this is very sick.. and that they were not married. They even did not have a spiritual marriage.

Anonymous said...

Does anybody know any names of the women and children they've taken out of there? Some of us haven't seen some family members for years.

Anonymous said...

Just wondering how you know they did not have a spiritual marriage?

Anonymous said...

Does anyone commenting on this blog even have firsthand knowledge besides Robert Richter? I would really like to hear form those who do and not the one's who dont know a #$%^ thing. Its time to wake up as American Citizens. Stand up for what you believe. This country is on such a downward spiral. We are demoloshing any values this Counrty ever had. You can't even pray openly any more. What would the founding Father's of this nation think today. THERE IS NO ROOM IN THIS NATION FOR CHILD ABUSE. ANYTIME! ANYWHERE! How often are child protective Sevices going door to door in Atlanta Georiga to protect the poor innocent children being RAPED and ABUSED. This is unbelieveable this this Nation is allowing Familys to be torn apart like this. What an UNGODLY condition we are in today. How would any of you feel if a CPS agent showed up at you home because of an anonymous phone call. NO PROOF, NO NOTHING, just an UN JUST search warrant and took your family without any evidence. If it ever happened to me there would be blood shed. Just put yourself in the shoes of some of those familys. This is absolutely discusting.

I do not condone abuse of any kind. But this RAID is out of control.

Anonymous said...

Interesting how they say "young" but don't give any ages. "many" are subject to abuse yet not many arrests. Anyway, i'm splitting hairs.
Again I say, they have one girls phone calls about only herself. Yes, it should have been investigated and yes the girl should be saved and the man should be jailed and raped himself for said crime.

We DO NOT evacuate an entire community and perform illegal searches on every single home and then say it's for the good of the people. I do not understand how my neighbor can have their kid taken into states custody for something someone else may or may not have done.

We have exactly 2 phone calls and still no evidence that anything happened but i'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for the sake of argument that there was a child and she was abused. It still doesn't call for the complete removal of every child from the entire community.

-fax

Anonymous said...

Robert Richter,

Just out of curiousity, what was the stated purpose of the furnace you designed? Also, what was the size and temperature ranges?

John

uncaduff said...

UncaDuff, you've had a hard life in ways, ....4/08/2008 6:07 PM.

I really haven't wanted to give the idea that I've had "a hard life",more so than anyone else that went through the same thing.I see my life as a learning experience. the hard part was accepting what I was learning as being real.

uncaduff said...

uncaduff, i've been browsing this blog for about a year now and I was wondering if you have ever told your story in full or if you just discuss your experiences when relevant to the topic at hand. I enjoy your posts.

4/08/2008 12:32 PM

ya, I pretty much try to relate relevant experiences. I don't have as much of a story to tell as a lot of other people that have been "handled" as they like to call it among the FLDS. there are people still trying to hang in there, who are having a worse time than I had, and it aint over yet.

Anonymous said...

I read a news item today that states that the people of Colorado City know who made the call and they know who the man in question is, and that Dale Barlow is the wrong name. My question; Have they come forward with the correct information?
This is not going to end until the State has all the information they feel they need. So why make these children go through more, like DNA testing, to only temporarily interfere with this investigation?

BlazerBill said...

Every FDLS male over 18 years of age should be sentenced to Life w/o parole in prison, for raping, imprisoning and brainwashing female and male children, as well as the aiding and abetting such crimes.

Every male 12-17 should be held accountable for any potential crimes listed above, but judged on a case by case basis by the legal authorities.

Every adult (18 and above) female who willingly promoted similar conduct, should be judged on a case by case basis for possible prison time. However, those that can be, or willing to be, part of a proper LDS program (or any life pursuit that does not promote FDLS principles) should be given the opportunity to live a new, free life.

For the defiled children, and I am sure they all were, we (a society of all faiths and beliefs) must assist them in any way possible to have an opportunity to live a normal live.

God Bless the poor children of Eldorado (and all other FDLS groups).

Anonymous said...

"Extreme persecution on our people was predicted by the leaders."

You just never let it cross your mind that your leaders would actually be the ones to execute the persecution on their own people. Yeah, it was easy for them to predict.

And such predictions only helped fuel the cultish paranoia your leaders use to control you and your brethern.

I'm outraged at your selfish lifestyle, FLDS men. That is NOT in keeping with God's laws or following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ who sacrificed himself. You behave cowardly and can't bear to put others first. . . esp. not your daughters and sons, so that you can show them true noble character as it was shown in the TRUE Bible. Beware the lies you have believed. . . Doesn't it ever cross your mind that you've outraged God?

Yeah, I'm angry.
I'm a woman, wife, mother and Christian. You are lost, so despite my anger, I'll keep all of you in my prayers. . . esp. those precious, dear children and babies.

I make no predictions about the jackhammers. But where are some of these missing young ladies and family members?

Emily in NC

And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. Words from God from the Bible.

Anonymous said...

Kli -

There are two sides to every coin. This is the result of a cultural that allowed a difference (polygamy - which isn't that unusual around the world) to be abused and corrupted (underage girls, forced marriages etc. - which also isn't that unusual in other cultures as distaining as that may be.) It's a bad situation but it's not our right to judge and sentence the entire culture because the most recent 'dynasty' (think Jeffs etc.) have corrupted and perverted its inherent segregation from the outside world it to work to their advantage.

The US Gov’t learned its lesson from the Short Creek Raids which is why they have been unwilling to interfere. Without solid proof of wrongdoing or at least an allegation from the community their hands are tied.

But there is no reason to "stamp out this community", by all means it is a significant culture that should be allowed to be preserved and maintained but in the dignity and morality that it was founded in. The vileness and corruption needs to be extracted but it's not our place to try and hang the entire community because a few of the wrong sort of men got too much power and twisted things to their advantage.

Reformed yes but destroyed no.

-ApostateCuriousLurker

Anonymous said...

I do not know much about it but would like to know more about the flds where should i look for information?

BlazerBill said...

Every FLDS male over 18 years of age should be sentenced to Life w/o parole in prison, for raping, imprisoning and brainwashing female and male children, as well as the aiding and abetting such crimes.

Every male 12-17 should be held accountable for any potential crimes listed above, but judged on a case by case basis by the legal authorities.

Every adult (18 and above) female who willingly promoted similar conduct, should be judged on a case by case basis for possible prison time. However, those that can be, or willing to be, part of a proper LDS program (or any life pursuit that does not promote FDLS principles) should be given the opportunity to live a new, free life.

For the defiled children, and I am sure they all were, we (a society of all faiths and beliefs) must assist them in any way possible to have an opportunity to live a normal live.

God Bless the poor children of Eldorado (and all other FLDS groups).

Anonymous said...

Is the whole "grooming to become child brides" a bit of an overstatement by the media. I understand some children are chosen to be child brides but it's not all of them or even half is it?

The media is really spinning this and sensationalizing the hell out of it. Some facts would be nice.
-fax

TexanNC said...

Anon 2:12-

While it is important to get the facts straight and not believe sensationalization in the media, if you don't know the facts about the situation, its important NOT TO ASSUME that what they are saying is sensationalized.

Its just as stupid to believe what the media says is false as it is to believe what they say. No conclusion can be made until the investigation is over and the facts are made public.

Anonymous said...

Facts? How about the affidavit the police filed with the district court of the rational behind the raid and the findings. Tons of interesting data I had never heard before.

Read up.

[url]http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/04/09/yfz.affidavit.pdf[/url]

This is Scott.

kli said...

"But there is no reason to "stamp out this community", by all means it is a significant culture that should be allowed to be preserved and maintained but in the dignity and morality that it was founded in."

The Amish are an example of a community that lives outside the mainstream, and yet follow the laws and don't abuse their children (as a matter of theology).

The FLDS are not on the same plane as the Amish. This is obvious to any outsider viewing this mess. And if you have to find some moral equivalency argument to defend the FLDS by talking about "child brides" in other parts of the world, that grosses me out.

The reason American culture is more advanced than radical Islamic culture (for instance), is that we let women grow up and live their own lives. We don't allow them to be sold as sex slaves, or raped as children, or married at 12 years old.

Like I said - there's a big difference between a sect like the Amish and a cult like the FLDS.

Anonymous said...

CNN just reported this.

An Actual marriage bed IN the temple so the new wife could be 'bedded' immediately after the marriage?

How romantic!

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/09/texas.ranch/index.html[/url]

This is Scott.

Anonymous said...

texannc-It was a question. I didn't make assumptions. You shouldn't talk down to people and lecture. I didn't come into the discussion as a know it all so relax. Especially since you don't seem to have the answers to the questions I was asking so pipe down.

-fax

Anonymous said...

When we live in a day and age when its ok to be Gay or Lesbian and raise children. Why should the government judge polygamists for their life style choices? The government should be even handed. If Texas can ok sodomy then they should ok polygamy as long as all people are over 18….maybe then there wouldn’t be secret compounds. Only legalizing polygamy would end the reign of horrible leaders who are pedophiles that land up having so much control over so many people who have polygamy beliefs.

Anonymous said...

When we live in a day and age when its ok to be Gay or Lesbian. Why should they judge polygamists for their life style choices? The government should be even handed. If Texas can ok sodomy then they should ok polygamy as long as all people are over 18….maybe then there wouldn’t be secret compounds with horrible leaders who are pedophiles that have control over so many because of there beliefs.

bbgae said...

Scott-
You seem like a level headed person. However your link did not work and I seriously doubt there is a marriage bed in the temple.

Kli- I am ex FLDS- Just-so-you-know. :D.
There is always going to be sensationalism on both sides. On the one side you have some apostates and some polygamous who are not as faithful as they ought to be (or they wouldn't be posting on this blog) who exaggerate their cause. On the other hand you have Do-Good Christians who don't understand a d---m thing about polygamy- just what they read and saw on the news who come in here with pistols blazing and a sack full of good intentions. The best you can hope for is a few level headed people in between.

Thank you, Robert for what you shared with us.



Ok, people. Let's be rational about this. The state received the call and they had to respond. This whole thing is about protecting a 16 yr old girl who claimed she was being abused. The state did not go in there and create havoc after just her first call. They had to find her so the first logical step was to question all the children. Something in the questioning gave them enough cause to worry and have the children removed- girls in their early teens who were pregnant for example. But there has to be more to the story that we aren't hearing. It is my opinion that the search would not have been so extensive and/ or through if Sarah had been found immediately. OR, maybe the reason the search has been so intense is because everywhere they turn there is more evidence of law-breaking.

Polygamy is not the issue here. Helping a little girl is. Polygamy doesn't become involved in the issue until the husband of the girl is found and proven to be a polygamous and proven guilty.

I am sure the state of Texas is doing everything they can to make the best out of a bad situation.

Anonymous said...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/09/texas.ranch/index.html?iref=topnews
The link Scott gave does get you to the "temple wedding bed" if you look at the top of the page. These people are complete fanatics who believe they are Gods chosen people and that God approves of all that they do. I have family members just like them....Blackmores and Lebarons.
Deist

Beth said...

bbgae,

Actually the bed in the Temple story is being widely reported and is included in the unsealed documents.

See: This link via the AP

Or simply Google "YFZ bed temple" in News... there are hundreds or articles to support it.

TexanNC said...

Aww fax. No hard feelings. I in no way intend to lecture. I've seen alot of one sided posts on here and the full extent of the investigation won't be known for months or even maybe years.

kli said...

I'm sorry, but any religion that forces young girls into sexual relationships like this is grotesque, and I don't think it's possible to "over exaggerate" the issue.

If we're talking about kids here, then this baloney about being "even handed" feels kind of creepy, honestly.

Anonymous said...

West Texas - The state of Texas is looking for anyone that may have been in the compound and left. A hotline has been set up by the Department of Family and Protective Services. If you have any information regarding the YFZ Ranch in El Dorado please call this number 1-800-252-5400. This number may also be used to report abuse neglect and exploitation for children elderly or adults with disabilities. And the situation in El Dorado has created an outpouring of concern from the general public. If you are interested in volunteering, providing a professional service or donating you can go to the Department of Family and Protective Services website
http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/

I was once involved with FLDS or have some personal experience with religious sects. Do you need my help?
Although there is not a current need for individuals with FLDS experience, we are accepting contact information for future use if needed. You may contact the community engagement staff at: communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us.

Anonymous said...

Bbgae; Just to reassure you they did find beds in the temple.

Affidavit for search and arrest warrant Filed in Schleicher County, Texas April 6, 2008

...On April 5, 2008, while conducting a search of the Suspected Place and Premises under authority of Search and Arrest Warrant number M-08-001-S, out of the 51st Judicial District of Texas for the county of Schleicher, a copy of which is attached hereto with accompanying affidavit as "Attachment A" for all purposes, Affiant made the following obervations; within a large building that Affiant heard the residents of Suspected Place andPremises refer to as a Temple, hereafter referred to as the "Temple," Affiant observed multiple locked safes, locked desk drawers, locked vaults, as well as multiple computers and beds. On one of the beds within the Temple, Affiant observed that the bed linens were disturbed as if the bed had been used and Affiant observed a strand of hair believed to have come from the head of a female because the affiant has seen numerous male residents at the Suspected Place and Premises and all of the males observed by Affiant wear their hair shorter than the strand observed by Affiant...

Anonymous said...

"When we live in a day and age when its ok to be Gay or Lesbian and raise children. Why should the government judge polygamists for their life style choices? The government should be even handed."

You are comparing apples and oranges. The main problem the government and the majority of Americans have with polygamists is the issue of the rights of minors. I, for one, would have no issue or qualms with legalizing polygamy if a) all parties involved were of age; and b) all parties involved came to polygamy of their own free will, without pressure from family or society. I've heard FLDS members say that even the youngest brides have "free will", but face it, in this country, the law says that a 13 or 14 year old girl cannot legally consent to sexual intercourse. And it's naive to think that many of these girls are not swayed by cultural pressure. From all that I know, these girls, if not outright forced, are strongly pushed to marry specific men.

A 13 year old girl should be in school preparing for her future, not saddled down with an older husband and children. And once the children come, how much "free will" can a young woman with little education have? Where would she go if she wanted a different life, and how would she support herself?

I have no desire to persecute anyone simply because of their religious beliefs- it's an issue of legality and human rights. No American is above the law, and if a group of people is systematically flouting the law by encouraging the marriage of minors, then it's inevitable that they will be prosecuted.

Anonymous said...

This story is about as low as it gets. This is a sanctuary and a religious temple Why is everyone so worried about the FLDS. All this is HERESAY. Can't the media sell their news. They act like they are so desperate. Desperate News Papers do desperate things. Remember HERESAY!!!! WHEN EVER A STORY COMES UP WITHOUT EVIDENCE, IT'S HERESAY.
A church gossip could hardly wait to rush up to the group of ladies. She lowered her voice and said."you all know I don't like to repeat gossip--so i'm going to repeat this once!.
Here is another one. Shelly: So is that it? Is that the whole story? Katherine: I should hope so! I've already told you quite a bit more than I heard.

Slander!!! Slander Mongers-and those who listen to slander,if I had my way would all be strung up,the talkers by the tongue,and listeners by the ears. Plautes

THE WORTHIEST PEOPLE ARE THE MOST INJURED BY SLANDER, AS IS THE BEST FRUIT WHICH THE BIRDS HAVE BEEN PICKING AT. J SWIFT.

To all religions. Did it ever accure to you that Polygamy is all through your Bible.
Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, David, Soloman, Moses. Study it out you will be amazed. The FLDS are family oriented and are very religious and prayerful just as you are. Go to Google and type "The Dash" Watch this short clip.

Anonymous said...

I can tell you; the FLDS is not all about sex. These people believe sex is for procreation only. The FLDS under Warren Jeffs is all about control, and under his guidelines that includes control of procreation. So beds in the YFZ Temple becomes very believable as a new means of control. This is why these people don't believe that one of their own could possibly be sexually abusive, but it can happen there like anywhere else.

Anonymous said...

I did not put in the proper code to make my links work and look correctly. Sorry. Just cut and paste them as they sit into your browser window and they'll work.

This is Scott.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4/10/2008 3:22 AM-

It's blatantly apparent your FLDS and don't understand the divination of hearsay.

Hearsay- Second-hand information that usually constitutes inadmissible evidence; hearsay evidence includes statements by a witness recalling events related to the witness by someone else.

I'd say the information being reported by the Texan government officials heading up this action is far from hearsay. Media does sensationalize item of interest but even if they have added a tidbit here and there to spice it up- its over the top even without the spices.

Personally, if FLDS or any other faith opted to practice polygamy I could care less. Marriages between mentally healthy adults whether they marry 1 or 3 wives puts nobody at risk. When polygamists involve incestuous relationships, physically beat their wives, and take girl younger than 16 as wives they are not only taking away other's right but possibly putting people's lives in jeopardy.

The marriage beds within the temple is one of the details that possibly really brings out the sinister motives behind this movement. One has to think- How do we know what purpose the bed held? Did an FLDS member tell the officers? Are the officers speculating? Could the bed be there for someone doing late work at the temple? Pictures would be very interesting. I would hope in time that we've privied to much more information on what they found within the walls of the temple.

It's obvious Warren Jeffs had common knowledge of the juvenile marriages. Was he involved in any under-age wifes himself that we know of? How many wives did he have?

As much as I am intrigued by the authorities authorized entry into this organization's temple I also am worried. I am LDS and imagine if we had police insisting upon entering into one of our sacred temples based on a phone call from a youth with claims of horrendous practices. The temple would be defiled and need to be rededicated. I guess if my faith has amassed such a vivid history of abuse on so many levels I should have planned on at some point someone barging in and investigating everywhere.

I am thankful Texas broke the mold of idleness and took the initiative and went in and looked out for the rights of these abused children and women. It makes the authorities in Arizona and Utah look like complacent and useless seeing as CC resides within their grasp. AZ & Utah should be hanging their head in shame at this point in my opinion.

This is Scott.

Anonymous said...

Polygamy does occur in the Bible. So does rape, incest, and murder. You can't assume that just because it's in there, God directed it. You have to look further, friend, and pay close attention to how God responds to that particular behavior.

If you read the Bible with an open mind and try to hear what God is trying to communicate you will be surprised at what you learn. Sometimes we try to justify our life choices by things that happened in the Bible.

A challenge: find a specific passage in the Bible where God directs a man to take a plural wife or wives.

Be a student of the Word. Don't let others spoon-feed you. It's your time here on this earth. OWN IT!

-Native Texan

Anonymous said...

Yes, they are so family oriented that they let your uncle marry your sister at the age of 14..NOT HERESAY..FACT!!!!! Fact from sworn testimony.

Hey live polygamy all you want. Just don't have sex with children. That's all that anyone is asking.

And, from the calls that were recieved and previous testimony it is FACT that this is happening. I don't care if you live polygamy but let children be children, not wives and mothers.

Why, if everyone is so about family in the FLDS, would they allow their young daughters to mary some disgusting old man? What family value is that? It's not a family value at all. It's a sick sick thing to do.

So, the words "religious" "family oriented" and "prayerful" are open to any translation..obviously. Because I know family oriented in my book is not marrying of my young daughter to some 45 or 50 year old man to be his 3, 4, 5th..whatever wife. My idea of family oriented is guarding your family even if it takes your own life. To protect them from pedophiles, to make sure that they are educated and give them something positive to believe in. To make sure that their lives are lived to the fullest they can be lived and they are able to experience things that I was never able to. Guide them to make their own choices, knowing I taught them well. And again..PROTECT THEM!!!!!!!!!

So, maybe they are family oriented, religious and prayerful, but that can mean many things.

Anonymous said...

I've been intrigued and very sad after reading and researching the flds people in the past few days. Today, my feelings went to absolute disgust. I applaud Texas for finally doing what has needed to be done for so long — making an effort to help the children and adults who are being abused. How can flds supporters cry religious persecution when so many revolting FACTS are known? That's right, not heresay but facts.

Anonymous said...

I cry BS for the writer who wrote that flds believe that sex is for procreation only. I laugh. Ever read Songs of Soloman AKA Book of Psalms? It's supposed to be wonderful and joyous. On a tangential note: what do you thing rape is for? If it's to create an unwilling involvement in procreation, that is a perverted sense of a relationship. PERVERSE.

Anonymous said...

THESE PEOPLE NEED A VOICE!

I left the FLDS three years ago when I was 23. I had a very happy childhood free from television, drugs, and abuse. These are some of the things i personally witnessed:

When a girl thought she was ready to get married, she would tell her father that she was ready to move on. Her father would turn her over to the prophet (Rulon or Warren Jeffs) to be placed in marriage. I saw Rulon many times tell the girl that she needed to be 18 before she was married, and I saw some girls ask to be married anyway, and sometimes he would give in to their request. It was not a common thing to see a girl younger than 15 get married, but if they did, it was always the result of her father putting a lot of pressure on Rulon or Warren to do something about their daughter. No one was ever forced. I saw several girls tell the prophet that she didn't want to marry so and so and that was the end of it (I know this because word really got around). Rulon and Warren always asked a girl if she had anyone in mind before she was placed with someone. Sometimes they would ask for an older guy with several wives already.

You've got to realize that the only thing these girls really lived for was getting married and having children. They do not have the same mindset as your typical teenage girl. Some were rebellious and wild teenagers sure, but 90% of the girls I grew up with only wanted to get married and have children. At the same time, 90% of the men didn't want their daughters to leave home and were very protective of them. My father wept when my older sister got married (she was 19) but he knew it would make her happy.

As for the men. 95% of the men I knew were honorable and trustworthy. They had beautiful families that loved them and would do anything for them. "by their fruits you shall know them". I challenge anyone to look at those children in Texas and honestly say "they are a product of pedophiles and immorality". An example of immorality would be someone that advertises their body by wearing next to nothing, uses foul language, uses drugs and exhibits no self control. You will not find that with these people. Sex is not even in their vocabulary. Literally.

I personally know every man on that Ranch in Texas. Search the world over, you will not find men more dedicated, more committed, and more focused on living in Peace and living their religion than within that group. They do not care what anyone else does, they only want to live their religion.

You should also note, half of the children raised within the FLDS, end up leaving on their own free will and choice. 95% of them you will never hear from again. 5% seem to spread rumor and false accusations everywhere they turn either because they are lonely and need someone or something to blame, or because they really were hurt or abused and somehow think it's the church's fault.

As for this raid in Texas here are some interesting facts:

1)There is only one Dale Barlow over the age of 40 within the FLDS. This man was convicted of fathering a child with a 16 year old two years ago. He has been on probation ever since and is not allowed to leave the state of Arizona except to report to his probation officer in St. George, UT. Authorities know where he is and he has not yet been arrested. (There is another member whose name is spelled dell but he is in his late 60's)

2)There is absolutely no physical evidence that this 16 year old who supposedly called in to report abuse even exists. Anyone could have made that call.

3)Anyone that thinks there is something wrong with having a bed in a temple that has disturbed linen and a female hair, is assuming WAY too much.

4)If I was a four year old child and I was taken away from my loving mother and father, I would be confused and hurt and would probably find a way of seeing how it was my fault.

5)The media keeps saying that 100 something women left on their own? They simply refuse to let their children go without them.

6)There are three sides to every news story and so far, everyone is getting only two. People that have left and are bitter, and people that are jumping to conclusions. I would like to be the third because I know these people, I am a product of these people and I believe they should be understood and left alone.

I left on my own accord because I was standing in the way. I wasn't ready to give up material things and I didn't believe Warren Jeffs was a prophet. I drew my own conclusion, and every member of that church is fully capable of doing the same if they so choose.

austlittlebeast@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

When I was 14 I thought it would be cool to get married too....someday. Wanting to get married and have a family is a very natural desire for most girls. It's up to the parents to guide her and help her equip herself to make it in this world.

Just because people in the outside world don't get married the minute they start thinking about it doesn't mean they run around half-naked and cussing until someone slaps that ball and chain on!

I'm not FLDS or LDS and I kept myself pure until marriage. It's called having a mind of your own.

Anonymous said...

"3)Anyone that thinks there is something wrong with having a bed in a temple that has disturbed linen and a female hair, is assuming WAY too much."


Wow- I thought this was a joke at first! Are you serious? I feel so sorry for you that you think this is normal and as much as you think you may have left it behind. I think you did so for the wrong reasons. If you only left because you didn't think Warren Jeffs was a prophet adn you wanted material thigns, then I'm sorry for you. Of course Jeffs isn't a prophet, all it takes to see that is not ahveign grown up in FLDS. I don't have material things by choice. you can I live in the world and be not of the world. adn a if it looks like a bed in a temple where teen brides are married off...what conclusions whould the world draw pray tell?

"4)If I was a four year old child and I was taken away from my loving mother and father, I would be confused and hurt and would probably find a way of seeing how it was my fault."

This is a common feeling of abused children, and it is COMPLETELY the parents fault! Not the government's fault, for trying to stop it while they can!!! I blame the church, not the feds!

Anonymous said...

"3)Anyone that thinks there is something wrong with having a bed in a temple that has disturbed linen and a female hair, is assuming WAY too much."


Wow- I thought this was a joke at first! Are you serious? I feel so sorry for you that you think this is normal and as much as you think you may have left it behind. I think you did so for the wrong reasons. If you only left because you didn't think Warren Jeffs was a prophet adn you wanted material thigns, then I'm sorry for you. Of course Jeffs isn't a prophet, all it takes to see that is not ahveign grown up in FLDS. I don't have material things by choice. you can I live in the world and be not of the world. adn a if it looks like a bed in a temple where teen brides are married off...what conclusions whould the world draw pray tell?

"4)If I was a four year old child and I was taken away from my loving mother and father, I would be confused and hurt and would probably find a way of seeing how it was my fault."

This is a common feeling of abused children, and it is COMPLETELY the parents fault! Not the government's fault, for trying to stop it while they can!!! I blame the church, not the feds!

Anonymous said...

I cry BS for the writer who wrote that flds believe that sex is for procreation only. I laugh. Ever read Songs of Soloman AKA Book of Psalms? It's supposed to be wonderful and joyous. On a tangential note: what do you thing rape is for? If it's to create an unwilling involvement in procreation, that is a perverted sense of a relationship. PERVERSE.

4/10/2008 1:59 PM

You can cry whatever you like, but I know many of those people. I grew up with some of them. I also chose not to live that lifestyle. They likely consider my lifestyle perverted because my wife and I enjoy a healthy monogomous sexlife.
I left before Warren's takeover, and could see all of this coming. He thought he was above the law and we all see where that got him.
The fact that they continued to take underage wives is nothing short of stupid and they deserve whatever the law hands them.

Anonymous said...

I am not FLDS but my heart goes out to those in Texas. It appears they (the government) went in with false information and now trying desparetly find any thing to make them look good. The governments hands are dirty this time, and that supposed phone call at the hotline in the early morn, sounds like a teenagers prank that the government abused their authority.

It is sad we live in a country where so many constitutional rights are being abused by the government.

My prayers are with the members of the FLDS.

Peace from Oklahoma!

Anonymous said...

anon 3:17

concise

Anonymous said...

2:39 anon,

You said you left the group when you were 23.

How has what you were told about the outside world compared to your actual experience here?

Sometimes I feel like the people who feed everyone the information about the outside world cannot speak on authority because they've never lived it.

Kinda like me trying to tell you all about France based on what I've seen on television and heard from my friends.

I've never been to France and some of these people have never lived on the outside.

bbgae said...

Scott- I searched the news later and found you were right about the bed in the temple. Don't worry about the link. I make mistakes too.

When I was in the FLDS three years ago there was certainly no teachings about consummating a marriage on sacred ground. I am assuming that is the reason the bed/s is/ are there. It must have been a new "revelation."

When I was fourteen, I wanted to get married too. We all did. It was only natural to want to do what everyone tells you is the most sacred and important thing you could do with your life. I didn't go to school. I had a job, but I was watched very closely because my father was protective of me. But I think now I would have chosen to go to college and start a career if I had known I could. Of course we really wanted to get married. That was the only direction our life could take because our other options were taken from us leaving us with the choice of do nothing or be married.

I do not think the information the state of Texas used to justify the raid was falsified. Why would they do that? Anyone? Someone give me a real motive that does not include prejudice.

I do not think the affidavit recording the information about what was found in the temple was lying either.

These people who work for the state and were called in on this are regular people like us. Their jobs would be on the line if they lied.

To the Anon. who was posting about gays/ polygamy. I agree with you 100%. If lesbians and gays are allowed, so, too should polygamy. And yes, those issues are VERY related. They are both diverse lifestyles separate from the regular "normal" one man/ one woman relationships that dominate today's society. If one is allowed, or at least tolerated so, too, should the other be.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if cell phones can be traced to a certain location? I thought they could.

I was just wondering because I'm sure the authorities were darn sure about the authenticity of the call before they went in.

Also if you were a 16 year old mother who was prenant for the second time by your 50 year old husband who abused you, you'd keep your mouth shut about your identity too. She said that other women would hold her baby while her husband hit her.

Doesn't sound like sisterhood to me.

Anonymous said...

"4)If I was a four year old child and I was taken away from my loving mother and father, I would be confused and hurt and would probably find a way of seeing how it was my fault.

This is a common feeling of abused children, and it is COMPLETELY the parents fault! Not the government's fault, for trying to stop it while they can!!! I blame the church, not the feds!"

For trying to stop what? Can someone please bring forth some evidence that child abuse is occuring in every home that has been shattered here?! In my mind, what the feds have done is nothing short of kidnapping. These kids have NEVER asked for this, they CERTAINLY don't feel like they are being abused, and they are NOT asking for anyones help. Just leave them alone. These parents have just as much right to teach their kids the way they want as we do to teach ours the way we want.

For pete's sake, if anyone did in fact call in a complaint, investigate the complaint. Punish those that have done wrong, and leave it at that. Don't storm an entire colony and say "it's because everyone is being abused" and "we're here to save you".

This is like Russia invading the United States, taking all the children and distributing them throughout their own foster homes, and then some russian saying "it's the United States fault" because someone called in and reported anti-communism!

Give me a freakin break!!

Like I said, I grew up FLDS. I was not abused, I had a happy childhood, my friends were happy, it was a great childhood and I wouldn't have had it any other way! Go save someone that really needs it!

austlittlebeast@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

bbgae- You answered the marriage bed question I posed in the other thread here. Thanks.

This is Scott.

Anonymous said...

"You said you left the group when you were 23.

How has what you were told about the outside world compared to your actual experience here?

Sometimes I feel like the people who feed everyone the information about the outside world cannot speak on authority because they've never lived it."

___________________________________

This is true. My dad informed me that I would never have any friends out here, the world was bad, blah blah. I've found that no matter what religion, country, culture, or lifestyle people embrace, PEOPLE are basically good. We absolutely are a blank slate when we come into this world and the way we are raised definitely sets our standards.

I WAS RAISED FLDS. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ME AND I HAVE HIGH STANDARDS. LEAVE THESE FAMILIES ALONE!!!

austlittlebeast@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

Did Not the Prophet Eli live in the temple ??? And also Samuel ??

Of course they did.. than clean up your "over sexed" minds and think with reason.

There is MORE than 1!,ONE!,UNO! Reason for a bed or beds (as the case may be)..to be in a Temple.

Anonymous said...

The picture in this article appears to show some kind of inscription on the wall of the temple near the door. Does anyone know what it says?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5688913.html

Anonymous said...

yes they did,... and they both had long hair...

Anonymous said...

Littlebeast,

Russia invading the US is not comparable with what happpened in the Texas compound.

A beautiful family is not made up of children produce from incest.

"You've got to realize that the only thing these girls really lived for was getting married and having children." This is a very sad comment. Did they have options? From my understanding, these women are illiterate. They were programmed to believe marriage and children and being sweet (obedient) would get them into Heaven. They never knew they had the opportunites to become doctors, lawyers, CEOs, authors etc.

"An example of immorality would be someone that advertises their body by wearing next to nothing, uses foul language, uses drugs and exhibits no self control." Other examples of sexual immorality include: rape, incest, pedophelia, and molestion.

"These kids have NEVER asked for this, they CERTAINLY don't feel like they are being abused, and they are NOT asking for anyones help. Just leave them alone. These parents have just as much right to teach their kids the way they want as we do to teach ours the way we want." The FLDS children may not know they are being abused. What's abuse to the majority of people may be normal to these children. Who would they ask help from? They are not allowed communication with the outside world. Parents do not have the right to keep their children from an education; no US parent has that right.

Beast, your arguments are so wrong on so many levels. Incest is against the law, and quite frankly, digusting. Not giving children an education so they have the capacity to make it on their own if they so choose to leave the cult is inconsionable. Young girls being coerced, if not forced, into having intercouse with old men is horrific. Collecting food stamps and welfare from the state (milk the beast) to feed your family is wrong.

This is not 1953. Very few people will defend the FLDS cult. We will stand up and fight for our women and children! Wait until the feminists get involved - Jane, Gloria, where are you?!

Anonymous said...

Auslittlebeast,

What would you have done differently if you were a Texas authority and had gotten the call from the 16 year old girl? Having lived in the Church, you probably have some insight and what could have been done to handle the situation.

Do you have family that is still in the Church? Sisters? If a sister had told you that she was beaten and hurt and needed help, what would you do?

I believe that living a life like the in FLDS Church sounds appealing - simple life - but I would make completely sure the people in the Church wanted to be there one hundred percent and that kids were given alll opportunities to make their own decisions.

Do you agree?


Sherman

Anonymous said...

Someone on this site said "We have no right to judge" and sited how other cultures have plural marriage.

Get real. This is America, not Saudi Arabia. Plural marriage is a tribal leftover that serves only one purpose, continued subjugation of women. It is cruel, dispicable, and ILLEGAL. I plan to write to my state representatives and ask them to consider further prosecutions of the FLDS and other ugly CULTS who abuse religious freedom in order to gain power and control over children.

Yeah, I'm gonna judge them. They are criminals!

Corby said...

I am a member of the LDS church and really don't know very much about the FLDS church. I believe that as a religion goes everyone has their own right to practice as they see fit, however, that no one is above the law. We believe that people should obey the law of the land. This incident in Texas should be about what is lawful and what is not. We are fortunate enough to live in the United States of America where freedom is still, to a greater or lesser degree, fundamental.

What we, as 'outsiders' of their faith believe or not believe is completely irrelivant. The fact here is the unlawful abuse and predatory sexual acts that are done with minors. If the FLDS people want to practice law abiding practices within their church let them. In the United States it is unlawful to have sex with a minor.

My heart goes out to those who are victims in this raid. Many don't even know they are victims. In the end this has all happened because a few men wanted a lot of power. Total power corrupts totally, and the leaders of the FLDS church have a lot to answer for.

I too have extended family who reside in Colorado City. I don't know them very well, but some of my family visit them at times. Although I don't personally agree with their choices they are still our Heavenly Father's children and He loves them.

To all of you I would say, 'he who is without sin let him cast the first stone'. We need to be helping others not pointing fingers. It is a blessing that these children were saved from such horrors, but the situation must be dealt with delicately. The women and children removed from the compound don't see it this way. We are nothing but intruders. Time and patience will be the best healer here I'm afraid.

Anonymous said...

Those in support of FLDS, do you really believe that children should be subjected
to coerced sex and inbred to the point of genetic breakdown?

Anonymous said...

Corby,

No, lets not "let them". Let's not be delicate. Lets look at what these people are facing in the legal system:
1.Bigomy
2.Child Abuse
3.Stagatory Rape
4.Child Endangerment
5.White Slavery
6.Welfare Fraud
7.Tax Evasion
8.Rackettering
9.Assualt
10. Sexual Assualt on a minor

Shall I go on? All these are legal statutes that I trust the State of Texas will use to prosecute ALL the men and at least some of the women who perpitrated this ugly crime. Let's refuse to look at this with PC glasses. The FLDS culture promotes all these crimes and more. I don't believe Auslittle's diatribe about what a wonderful childhood he/she had. The North Koreans think they live in a wonderful country too.

Of course this is brainwashing! What else can it be when your only education is derived from some nut-job who thinks he speaks for God. Remember, even Hitler loved his mother.

Anonymous said...

Anon, 11:28sm

very well stated!

now, if only, the Texas authorities and prosecutors are as smart as you we can get some convictions.

but i'm not so sure after listening to the sheriff from Texas last night; he sounds like a man with a third grade education...

Anonymous said...

To ANON 4/11/2008 8:33 AM:

Quoted from the Deseret News:

{Above the doorway is the "all seeing eye" and an inscription that reportedly includes the phrase, "Holiness to the Lord in the House of the Lord."}

Anonymous said...

The engraved passage on the temple reads "Organize Yourselves, Prepare Every Needful Thing, And Establish A House, Even A House of Prayer, A House of Fasting, A House of Faith, A House of Learning, A House of Glory, A House of Order, A House Of God."

Austlittlebeast, I believe the reason for the removal of the kids is that the girls are being raised to accept marriage to an old man when they are 13. That means they are being groomed to accept sexual abuse at that age. The boys are taught the same thing, so they are being groomed to be sexual predators. I grew up in CC. My older sisters (pre Warren) were married between 18-22, and allowed to get a degree first if they wanted. The younger ones were not so lucky. Why not let the kids grow up first? The reason is pedophilia.

Ex-Creeker

Anonymous said...

I have 5 girls in my family that are not even married and the are 17 18 18 19 20 21. Where the hell does everyone think they all get married at 13 or is it 12 or maybe it is 10 or 9 or 8 the lower the better it sells news papers. By the way Eli and Samuel the Prophet slept in the Temple and they had a bed. Who ever comeup with those dirty lowdown comments about beds in Temples get your dirty mind out of the gutter shame on all the news channels.

ellendar said...

I really believe that God's commandment to Go forth and multiply is being trampled on now and I heard they, the state of Texas intends to try to push therapeutic aborthions for these pregnant FLDS members, I am LDS myself but I see nothing wrong with FLDS as long as they are not marrying unconsenting wives and as long as the children are not involved polygamy should be legal and regulated

Anonymous said...

ellendar,

You don't fool me. Your paranoia about the state of Texas imposing abortions on these poor ladies smacks of FLDS, not LDS.

And HOW can the children not be involved in polygamy??

For this community to work out, there has to be far more women than men. The "unworthy" boys are forced out to keep the ratios desirable.

Everyone keeps talking about these poor young girls being forced from all they've ever known. Why aren't we talking about how this has been happening to boys for years?

All these boys are brothers and sons to folks within. Is there no hurt there??

Any Lost Boys out there care to comment??

-fed up

bbgae said...

Ex-Creeker-
Why not let the kids grow up first? The reason is pedophilia.

No. I think the reason is control. Pedophilia is just an added bonus.

Anonymous said...

ellendar,
I have news for you.
polygamy IS legal
it's alive and well and practiced now more than ever.
it's called divorce.
now if the ex (ex's) want to stick around and play musical bedrooms, that's their business
nobody can say "boo"

but the fundie Mormons don't want to do it that way
it would screw up their little game, now wouldn't it

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Historic Moment said...

Is it possible to get a new (non-street) thread to discuss the newest information coming out?

In the mean time - does anyone else find it interesting that CPS/police confiscated an estimated 50 cell phones from the woman and children that are off-compound? If people hardly leave the compound, what is the need for SO many cell phones? (I'm honestly surprised that they have any). Thoughts?

fttc said...

warren jeffs movement within the FLDS was technology driven from the get-go. That the YFZ occupants have many cell phones should not come as a surprise to anyone that has followed this for long. One of the first things Pilot picked up when he started fly-overs was the networking antennas on the buildings. These people are not opposed to using the modern technology as some other fundamentalist religions are. They just don't use it in a way that involves anyone outside their faith.

Those who have not been a part of this religion will have a very hard time understanding it. Of course many people listen to the negative reports of the media and have no desire to understand further. If any had the temerity to see through the efforts at understanding they would find that they are not like many here portray. They have their obvious oddities, but all religions do. Underneath they are basically good people that are industrious and moral. If you take away the few abuse cases that exist, (you will find that these do not occur even as often as any other community in the US if you take population densities into account) and do away with the underage marriages which the state is going to find out are not as prevalent as they suppose (some of the underage girls with children are married to men/boys within the legal range of marriage, you will find they will make very good neighbors.

I think many people are too willing to enforce upon these children their own version of freedom. The fact is our children learn from us and none of us are perfect. I keep reading here that these children need to know all of their choices and be able to make them unfettered. How many of you parents out there are willing to let anyone on the street take your children in and show them 'other' choices? Do parents have a right to teach their children the principles that they themselves believe in? Or would this be condsidered brainwashing? I know what the allegations are in this fiasco. I believe the authorities will find some genuine wrongdoing. I know there are some underage illegal marriages being performed that need to stop. But how many of you can put aside your prejudice and give some thought and honest answers to the above questions?

Sorry for the long-winded rant. I've had a long day.

Anonymous said...

"You've got to realize that the only thing these girls really lived for was getting married and having children. They do not have the same mindset as your typical teenage girl"

That statement in and of itself is evidence of abuse, specifically neglect. our most important rights as American citizens is an education. These children are obviously not receiving anything close to a complete education. If they were, they would realize long before they are of marrying age (whatever that may be) that they really don't have to live in a compound, sleep on a cot or pop out babies whenever asked to ascend into heaven after their miserable lives. Maybe they would even realize that Warren Jeffs is no prophet, his "religion" was invented in the late 19th century by another non prophet and has no basis in historical fact. These children should be taken from their parents and placed in foster homes, unless their parents are willing to enroll them in an accredited school system. Education will set them free.

fttc said...

Anon 2:49

Your post is just what I am speaking about. What part of education aren't they getting? Your version of morality? Your version of what is normal in the world? Your own concept of freedom? If you can quote some scholastic statistics that include all of the FLDS children I will listen to what you are saying. I don't think for a moment that the YFZ was built by men and women without an education. Those who have been involved and seen first hand what has been done will attest to that. These men and women were once the boys and girls that you now profess to want to protect. If laws have been breached the perpetrators need to be brought to justice. This is still America and these are citizens whether you like it or not. If you take away their right to a fair trial you only give up your own right to such in return and you will be the next victim of an over-reaching government. No one has enough information on this case to justly condemn anyone yet. If those who are on the front lines interviewing the alleged victims are having difficulty establishing grounds for prosecution how are we who are at the mercy of a senstation driven media to judge this? Are you getting revelation from your hat?

ATAR_i said...

I have been gone for a bit - and must say - I am refreshed by the unsensationalized posts (most) in this thread - its a nice change.

I think most of us can agree (I do not expect all), that wether or not a child 'wants' something - its not necessarily in their best interest at that moment in time.

As to the Jackhammer - it will be interesting to find out why it was used (if ever we know). It is interesting to speculate, and sometimes the truth is boring and mundane - and sometimes spectacular and beyond what we ever imagined - it might be either.

I will say, from my own personal experience, that no matter how well you think you know someone, or for how long a period, and in what capacity - there are some things you can never know - both amazing generosity, and severe sickness hidden away in areas. I can claim I don't believe someone would do something heinous, or claim it is beyond any behavior they have ever exhibited - but I can never truly know what they are capable of.

So a sweet child can lie about a heinous act never committed, or a loving mother can commit one (both have happened) and all caution should be exercised before we blanket accuse individuals of misdeads.

Let it shake out, and watch the dust settle.

ROSE said...

Good question! Why Jackhammers? Could go in many directions with this question! Let me know if anyone finds out!!!

ROSE said...

No, my life is not shallow or full of bitterness, but it's called " Freedom of Speech," and we are all entitled to our own opinion!! Umm I think that's still true! Help me out here~ Anyone???

ROSE said...

Hey I am still wondering whats up with the jackhammers? Anyone fiqure this out yet!!??

Anonymous said...

I am a Christian and strongly believe in freedom of religion, freedom of speech, all of it.

But this is nothing more than a sex cult, abusing religion, abusing laws, and abusing women and children.

Execute the perps! What they do by raising legions of sex-slaves from birth is worse than murder.

Anonymous said...

If this is the "New Jerusalem", it's a pretty sorry state of affairs. No pun intended...

Anonymous said...

I'd just like to say that Street's latest thread has been the most illuminating (if cryptic) of all the site's on I've found covering this one the web. Many focus on issues of due process and seizure justification, rules for the CPS.

But hearing from former members has been very interesting. I see the US as a larger example of the YFZ ranch, with the public locked in a lasting delusion of religion and Christianity.

Frankly, what we have here is a society that has blocked out all the advances and evidence that has allowed the enlightenment of Man. Living outside, it's unfortunate if it takes you 25yrs to determine the nature of reality, and the viral/meme qualities of religion.

But inside... pure tragedy.

The obsession I sense from Street about impregnating girls at the first sign of menstruation [by artificial insemination, which is what I'm willing to infer instead of statutory rape] sounds like something lifted straight from an ancient Greek cult. I hope that in the 21st century we can liberate people from this sort of fiat theology, so that every child grows up willing to question, and with an understanding of the human condition.

Anonymous said...

i think these people are weared and shouldnt be living confined from the outside society. There shall be no multiple wifes or husbands. The shall allow them to go back to the ranches but the people living there should have to have legal documents. There also should be check ups from the state and federal every now and then to make sure nothing illegal or abusive is going on there.

A MESSENGER OF GOD said...

You all Shall Face the LORD and rot in the deepest depths of HELL for your commitment to FLDS.

Anonymous said...

I think I understand why Street says Dont Delay (in reference to the little girls) The older ones are realizing life is not right, and want out. If at 16 or 17 she already has a few children, how likely is she to move away?

Its ridiculous. Thank God for Texas. At least these children now have a chance at a normal life.

Stephanie

Anonymous said...

This is a cult, pure and simple. Jackhammers aren't big enough.