Wednesday, March 05, 2008

some questions:
Who were the key figures in creating the circumstances that allowed for a Warren Jeffs type takeover at Short Creek? when and what, specifically did they do?
who could have prevented it and what should have been done differently?

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hell Unca, read Orwell's Animal Farm,
it won't be hard to put names to the different animal's.

Anonymous said...

Excellent question and topic Uncaduff.

The answer to this seems to be so complex and layered that I don't know that I could even begin to scratch the surface of it's many facets.

I'll wait for some people a little closer to the actual events to post something and then I'll put in my two cents.

Anonymous said...

If the FLDS would bother to research their own history they would find that there was an order in their succession in leadership.
One had to be called, set apart, and ordained by the worthy senior.

Now, truth be told, had they never bought into the One Man Rule they would be in the shitstorm they're in today. But that's a different subject.

From what I understand Warren was NEVER ordained to by Bro. Jeffs to the office he claimed. But when you teach that Bro. Jeffs is doing to live until he's well over 200 years, there's no rush.

NUMBER 1.
The belief that Bro. Jeffs was going to live as long as they said he did led them to believe there was not necessarily a need to formally appoint another leader.

NUMBER 2.
According to the standard procedure of that had been applied in their history Warren was NEVER formally ordained to the office he claimed.

Now if I'm one of the Barlow boys and I see this happening, and we all saw this happening, I refute Warren's claim by using points of doctrine, one of which I've already spoken of. The Barlows held enough sway at the time of Bro Jeffs passing that, had they refuted Warren's claim, they would have had a following big enough to make Warren second guess the way he abruplty booted them from the community.

NUMBER 3.
The Barlow's complacency.

Now the kicker in all of this is that the Barlow's became a victim of their own creation.

The pushed the One Man Rule more than anyone because they feared having to come under the direction of Uncle Marion. And it's the one man rule that gave Warren the power to boot the Barlow's.

NUMBER 4.
The One Man Rule

Now, it's beyond me why wives were so easily persuaded to leave their husbands and be reassigned. By doing this Warren created a culture of fear and paranoia. Men feared that if they questioned what was going on they would lose their families. If the women had refused to be reassigned Warren would have lost a lot of his power, because a lot of his power came in his ability to separate families.

NUMBER 5.
The women's willingness to be reassigned gave Warren power.

This next one is a biggie to me. In one of Bro. Johnson's sermons he said that if a man married his father's wives he would be damned. As we all know less than a month after Bro. Jeffs passing Warren was married to the majority of his father's wives. A lot of men in the community KNEW this was out of order and a despicable practice. They had Bro. Johnson's own words to back them up. They should have spoken out and didn't, or atleast they didn't speak out enough and make a big stink of it for Warren to deal with.

NUMBER 6.
Warren married his father's wives and the men who knew it was wrong never rose up against him for it. There was a key opportunity there that they missed.

I've stated six reasons that come to mind. But in reality, there are so many more. I'm anxious to read future comments on this discussion.

Anonymous said...

"what should have been done differently?"

erra...maybe stop playing GOD with little girls?

Short Creek is a Cult.
Jeffs was just doing his job.
Just be thankful he didn't hand out cups of Kool-Aid.

keep sweet eldorado
stg

uncaduff said...

Short Creek is a Cult.
________________________

granted, but in a cult,who is to blame for the depredations, the prophet, or the people who carry them out?
obedience dose not absolve one of responsibility for an unjust offence.

bbgae said...

I was there the whole time it was happening. I don't think there is much more to say than others have already said, and I have no idea how it might have been stopped.

I think Warren really started to take over before his father died- right after Rulon's big stroke in 1998. Things had a little different 'flavor' to them. Warren couldn't take complete control like he wanted to then but he maneuvered himself into position so he could when the time was right.

He convinced his father to move 'down south'. He started speaking for his father for church. Whenever this happened, the searmons were always harsh., but whenever Rulon spoke for himself, it was always something like, "Keep sweet. It is a matter of life and death. If you are not for me then you are against me." But Warren was clever. He always started out his searmons with a phrase like, "Father wanted me to read this to you toady."

So everyone naturally listened to what he had to say. No one dared dispute him. How was anyone to know what Rulon said to Warren when they were alone? And the alternative was not even thought about- that Rulon was incapacitated and unable to lead us. We NEEDED someone to step in and make Rulon look competent enough we could all still believe he was the prophet. We didn't dare even think about the alternative for that would be instant apostasy and damn us to hell.

I remember Warrne's brother LeRoy getting up in church and talking about how hard it was on him when he had once been the one to drive his father places and be his father's helper to look out the window of his office and see his brother Warren drive past with his father not knowing his father had needed a ride somewhere and not knowing where they were going. He talked about ti being a bitter sweet experience to give up his jealousies because it was the Lord's will for Warren to be there becasue Rulon had asked him to.

You all know the rest of the story. How after Rulon's death Warren laid claim to the presidency by the testimony of Naomi. How suddenly for no reason all the Barlows lost their families. How people started playing musical houses and church was put to a screeching halt. How the people were led blindly astray until there was nothing left of our former glory and our people were scattered to the winds without any contact with so many who were dear to us.

Warren was a wolf in sheep's clothing and none of us realized until it was too late.

Anonymous said...

Uncaduff

Here is a list of destructive mind control symptoms.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm

BITE

I.
Behavior Control

II.
Information Control

III.
Thought Control

IV.
Emotional Control


A mirror of the FLDS and many other groups under control of a person or a cause.

Anonymous said...

Take a look at where the people that are in power now, were in the late 80s.I don't think it all started with warren.

Anonymous said...

Warren is the product of our own creation. He has no more power than we give him. We want someone in the God position so we can suck up to him and get favors. When I remember it starting is back when people started wearing the "Uncle Roy's Boys" hats and swearing there alegence to "the man" how does it tast now? What do we want for the future?

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Animal Farm, isn't it interesting that the Wooleys taught that it was to be a council of friends, and they weren't even to collect tithing. Now it is Napoleon (God and the Prophet) always and only do right. I guess the equality of the animals is no longer the case. Instead the pigs treat the rest like animals.

uncaduff said...

4:29 AM...
all so true, but so far we have addressed only symptoms, not root causes.

Anonymous said...

Fear.

That is the root cause. If you can create steer-able Fear in a person to make them change their behavior in a predictable manner, you've got them by the balls.

Fear they are not going to go to heaven. Fear they are not good enough to go to church. Fear they are not good enough to keep their families. Fear they are not good enough to give 20%. Fear they might buy the wrong brand of bread at the store. Fear they might drive the wrong color of vehicle. Fear they might wear the wrong color of clothes. Fear they might not pile their hair high enough. Fear they might talk to a relative. Fear they might talk to their parents.

Or is it Faith?
Faith that they will go to heaven. Faith that they will be a better person if they attend church. Faith that they will be able to keep their families together. Faith that they are good enough to give 20%. Faith that they will buy the right brand of bread at the store. Faith that they will drive the right color of vehicle. Faith that they will wear the right fashion of clothes. Faith that they will pile their hair high enough. Faith that if they get enough wives or put up with enough sister wives they will go to heaven.


What is the root cause of fear? Fear is a natural instinct. It is part of our DNA. It wasn't too long ago that virgins were thrown into volcanoes because of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear that if the virgins weren't beautiful enough the volcano god's would spew forth and destroy the land. Every animal on earth reacts because of fear. But every now and then you’ll get a jackrabbit to stop dead in his tracks and have faith that he is camouflaged against the sagebrush by his color. About 2 seconds later a bullet blows him to bits.

Fear is the opposite of faith. While Fear is an inherent trait or reaction, faith is a learned behavior, a belief that is not based on truth.

Fear leads to survival of species. Faith leads to the destruction of the species.

So, the root cause is Faith.

LTG

Anonymous said...

Isn't it ironic that a cult can discredit another cult and then do the very things they use to discredit another cult; it's called "karma" or "fate".

We got on our pious high horses in priesthood meeting and showed how Rulon Allred was in error. The reasons: (1) He used the testimony of a woman as evidence of his position. (2) Any supposed ordaining to that position was after Joseph Musser had a stroke.

Now what did Warren do? (1) He had Mary and Naomi get up and tell about how Rulon wanted him in this position. (2) Rulon Jeffs mentioned this to his nurses after he had a stroke.

What was going on that allowed us to do what wasn't OK for the UAB (Allred's group)? Somehow we got to the point that "God and the prophet always and only do right. Don't question what God does." We allowed that doctrine to blind us to the point that we did the very things we found fault with in others.

Anonymous said...

so, the root cause is Faith.
--------------------------------
faith, in this case being; "belief in spite of negative evidence"... which translates to ignorance.

Anonymous said...

I was once like that LTG, I feared I was not worthy enough to be lifted up when the time came. My parents took me to see Uncle Rulon. When we got there all we were allowed to see was Warren he told me the same thing when I voiced my fear. He said,"Fear is the opposite of faith"
GM

Anonymous said...

Or hypnotic lying to onesself.

Just a small one said...

I quote from The Coming Crisis.
"He has said that 'HE WILL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSIONS THAT THEY MIGHT BELIEVE A LIE.' He gives His reason and apology for acting after this strange manner- because, knowing the truth, they do not love it unadulterated. And knowing God,they do not choose to glorify Him as God."
And Alma 29:5
" Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; BUT HE THAT KNOWETH GOOD AND EVIL, TO HIM IT IS GIVEN ACCORDING TO HIS DESIRES, WHETHER HE DESIRETH GOOD OR EVIL, LIFE OR DEATH, JOY OR REMORSE OF CONSCIENCE."

Anon 3/05/2008 11:52 AM
I agree with you on most points. But as for wives being willing to leave their husbands, I think some of it was wives seeing it as an opportunity to get out of a marriage that they did not like. So, what is easier than to come up with some excuse and tattle on their husband. I know some women that did that.

Anonymous said...

I think the place was designed to fail,from the start.One man rule leads to tyranny,which leads to chaos.Inevitable.

Anonymous said...

FLASH BACK

Blogger Paladin for Truth said...

I was born and raised in "The Work" as it used to be called. I watched as men became filled with greed and tried to control their leaders as they grew old in age. I watched a split here and a split there. Soon new names had to be formed to "Define us from the others". Thus the legal name FLDS was formed. Warren Jeffs is the second president of that organization. There are many that believe in "The Work" that are not FLDS. "The Work" as I was taught was the belief and practice of teachings in a paper written by John Taylor in 1886. I have read this paper, as people who believe in "The Work" have a copy. I know that the Mormon Church does not claim this as an offical revelation and I mean no disrespect to them. I am talking about what people in "The Work" believe that John Taylor wrote. I am simply talking about what is written in that paper and more importantly what is not written in it. It basicly says to keep Plural Marriage alive. It does not say to cheat the food stamps, or to not pay your credit cards. It does not say to not pay your brother back that which you borrored of him, just because Warren sent him away. It does not say to force your daughters to live plural marriage. Brother Leroy Johnson, who was not any President of the FLDS as it exists today, in fact most of what President Johnson was President over Warren has destroyed. He was a great man who blessed many people. Including the young men. He sent them to be doctors and dentists and school teachers. He had them get their education. He had them start industry and told them not to "oppress the hireling in his wages", a practice now common under the leadership of Warren, many FLDS members have had their pay cut, so the money can go to Warren. President Johnson would not marry any girl that did not come and "Turn herself in" first. This was basicly her saying "I am ready to be married and want you to do it. Warren has done away with this process and they have 5 minutes to decide or they are considered "Half-Hearted" and not for the Prophet. Nowhere in this 1886 paper does it say to put your sons to work instead of giving them an education and then cast them off when they can't conform becuase they have been working their butts off because they love their parents and their brothers and sisters and want to see them have food and clothes and such. It does not give any man any authority to undo any marriage and move women around the community like cattle. There is some teachings in the Doctrine and Covenants about adultery, releasing wives from a man if he is with a woman who is not his wife. Most of these men who have been sent out have not done that, they don't even know why they were sent away. Some asked for a trial as stated in D&C 102:15 "The accused, in all cases, has a right to one-half of the council, to prevent insult or injustice". They said they could get no returned phone calls and no answer to their repeated letters. The got no trial, as it was their right to have. The only answer they got, was when they found out that their dear wives were put in another man's house. Looks like Warren Jeffs can't follow the commandments of "The Work" in following the directions of D&C 102. Lets have a trial for him according to D&C 102 and have him answer for his neglect to follow the commandments of God given by Joseph Smith. Warren claims to hold the highest position in the High Priesthood. To hold that Priesthood, Warren has claimed that he would take an oath and covenant to obey the word of God as written in the D&C. Warren claims to be an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Instructions given by Jesus in the Book of Mormon 3Nephi:32 to his Apostles teach to allow the unworthy to continue to come to the places of meeting.

So to sum up, these men that have bent sent out should have first had a trial and then if they were found unworthy, still should get to come to the place of worship. I can find nothing saying they get to be robbed of their families and sent away without even knowing what they did. Maybe they knew the truth about Warren, second president of the FLDS and self-proclaimed Apostle of Jesus Christ.
If Warren wants to be an Apostle, he first needs to act like one. The work of an Apostle is to minister not destroy. If a group of people want to anger God, let them change the rolls of Jesus and Lucifer.

I invite those who still believe in "The Work", according to its original identity as defined by John Taylor, to offer any corrections to my understanding.
I have the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Journals of Discourses. These books define "The Work" as I understand.

Let those who believe in "The Work" help restore it for what it is and not what the current leadership of the FLDS claims it to be.

3/13/2005 3:35 PM

uncaduff said...

I think the place was designed to fail,from the start.
----------------------------------

the path embarked upon the day the brotheren put there names to the UEP trust document, was the path too failure, as history has so often shown. socialism under whatever name given to it, has never worked, and never will.

Anonymous said...

They might have won a battle but not the war.
The mills of God grind slowly
they grind exceedingly fine
with patience he stands waiting
with exactness grinds us all.
The path embarked upon the day the brethren put there names to the
UEP trust document,was the path to success as history has so often shown. United Order will always work.

Anonymous said...

Never has...why should it now?

uncaduff said...

the combination of socialism and representative theocracy, is a certain recipe for human misery and economic failure. history has shown this unequivocally. any argument to the contrary is rationalized fantasy.

uncaduff said...

UEP trust document,was the path to success as history has so often shown. United Order will always work.

3/12/2008 12:37 AM
______________________________________

the benefits of a lie are temporary at best. the consequences are enduring indeed.

Anonymous said...

When has a United Order ever worked? Wasn't that what caused the demise of Jamestown? Has there ever been an actual case where it was successful, not counting the ficticious 200 years in the B.O.M. "history"?

Anonymous said...

When has a United Order ever worked? Wasn't that what caused the demise of Jamestown? Has there ever been an actual case where it was successful, not counting the ficticious 200 years in the B.O.M. "history"?

Anonymous said...

Utahn said:

Duffy,
Uncle Lyman Jessop expressed exactly the same opinion,as you have about the U.E.P. back in 1942.I have lived to see his predictions come to pass.

Anonymous said...

If the United Order was perfect, Uncle Fred would of passed out the best shoes for everyone.

But, that did not happen.

Those poor men who went to jail for polygamy sake, came back to starving families.

United Holy Order smuck.

Anonymous said...

Mens hearts are what the Lord judges through all of this. Every person is judged by the desires of their hearts and the intent thereof. Regardless of materialistic things or the accummulation of wealth all we can show when we leave this frail existance is what is in our hearts. Everyone please go to google and type in the words THE DASH and watch a 3 minute movie. I was very touched by its message also email it to everyone. By the way lets each person on this blog decide once and for all say only nice things. Even if we can only do it for a single sentence. Then after that you can lay down and rest if it was so hard to do.

Anonymous said...

say only nice things?
"all that is needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"
"we shall use there own integrity to destroy them" (from communist doctrine) you have been deceived by that great and abominable church, modern liberalism.
the time to be nice has passed,it's time for the saints to "eat and fight" the fasting and preying has been done.
the Devil sits in the seat of Priesthood, and his imps stand at the door of the Lords storehouse!

Anonymous said...

3/13/2008 9:10:00 AM
Jennifer Denevan -
Mountain Mail Staff Writer

Wayne Fischer, 38 of Las Vegas, Nev., pleaded no contest to 15 traffic charges when he appeared in Chaffee County Court Wednesday in connection with the Jan. 10 death of a 10-year-old girl.

Chaffee County Judge William Alderton conducted the status conference and accepted the list of complaints filed by Deputy 11th Judicial District Attorney Rex Kindall. Fischer represented himself.

Fischer faced one count of careless driving resulting in death and two counts of careless driving resulting in injury.

Other charges were three counts of no child restraint for children younger than 4 years old and nine counts of no child restraint for 6- to 17-year-old children.

Alderton set sentencing for 3 p.m. May 7 in Chaffee County Court.

Anonymous said...

Thank you 3/13/2008 9:06 AM poster

Here is for Warren and his cronies:

MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN


Daniel Ch 5

Anonymous said...

"all that is needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"
I remember Uncle Dan Barlow saying this many times in church; now it makes total sense, we can see the truth of it. What is it going to take to get the good men left in CC to stand up and do something now. Where is the rallying point?

This is interestingly fit to our day- These are the days that try men's souls.... read here
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/commonsense/sense1.htm

uncaduff said...

What is it going to take to get the good men left in CC to stand up and do something now. Where is the rallying point?
------------------------------------

All the "Good men" who had any inclination to stand up and do anything,..... have been exiled,...or sent away,to "repent"...or just booted out.
the rest are just too timid to stand up for what, down deep in there meek little soles,they know to be right.

Anonymous said...

"..exiled,...or sent away,to "repent"...or just booted out."

? They had an inclination to stand up and do something?? Then why did they just walk away if they knew they did not deserve it and that there was something wrong?

Anonymous said...

My guess

They tried to fix an unfixable institution because they realize if Warren is wrong it is all wrong. Once Warren betrayed them, rather than accept it all as being wrong, they convince themselves he was right after all and they "shouldn't have lifted up their heel against the Lord's anointed". Horrid guilt trip to send someone on, but the only way to avoid that guilt trip is to bring themselves to accept that the religion they believed all their lives is wrong.

uncaduff said...

many of them did do something. they took it to court and gained the right to live in the house they built. in my case, I came to understand that the whole system was faulty, and I wanted to raise my family elsewhere.
the only reason I have any interest in the place now, is because of the many friends and family members still caught up in this great fraud.

dyk said...

Please remember there is no such thing as a victim.

Adults make CHOICES! They choose to do what they do, even in the Creek.

Anonymous said...

dyk - Now that statement just makes you a victim of stupidity

Anonymous said...

I agree with Dyk, we are what we choose to be, whether we conciously realize it or not.
Sooner or later every person figures out that the choice is theirs, and they get what they really want in life.

bbgae said...

I agree with dyk also. There is nothing stupid about taking responsibility for your own actions and choices regardless of the situation or circumstances we find ourselves in.

Anonymous said...

"Please remember there is no such thing as a victim."

Sounds to me like you are wishing the victims didn't exist.
The reason many girls (poofers)are married off at a young age; before they are able to make an Adult Choice. POOF!!! GONE!! Doesn't make them any less of a victim.

uncaduff said...

those who are subjected to the "twin relics of barbarism", slavery and polygamy,are always victims.

Anonymous said...

OK, so to answer the original question of this thread:

Would I live polygamy if it weren't ordained of God?

HELL NO!