Here you go, Small One. I don't think this topic has been discussed before- at least since I have been here. It's not too hard to make a new post. I can see you've signed up with blogger. Just click on the orange "B" in the corner. That will take you to the blogger home page and there should be a box with Texas polygamy there. To create a new thread, just click on the "new Post" +.
I would have to say my opinion on the subject of polygamy is divided. Having once experiences it with bad results I am never going to do it again. But I know that there are people who live it and experience mostly good results- and I do not want to take that away from them. If people want live polygamy and can do so without hurting anyone I say they should. I also think polygamy should be legalized.
79 comments:
I wonder why people think Plural Marriage is a sin. I know for myself that it is a correct principle and must be lived to attain the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. I also know that most people I have known that enter the principle, do not live it correctly. So it is not for everyone. So why is it so bad to some people, for a man to claim two women as wives, take care of them and treat them as wives in every sense of the word, and for some reason it is not quite as bad for a man to have a wife and a mistress? Or is it? To me, THAT is awful.
I copied this from Anon on the other thread
2/19/2008 8:47 AM
All those that have this law revealed unto them Must and shall abide the law or they will be damned saith the Lord of Hosts. D&C 132. For no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my Glory. Therefore Since God said it, I believe it and do Live it, That settles It. This should answer the question Why or Why not should Celestial Marriage (Not Polygamy) be lived.
__________________
I totally agree, and also with anon 2/19/ 9:42. However who is to be the judge of whether a person has had it revealed to them? When I was growing up, my father told me of a family (he was raised in the LDS Church) who had had missionary's come to their house and preach the Gospel to them, and did not accept it - if I remember right it was six different times, then some came again, gave the Gospel message and they accepted it and embraced it in its fullness. I believe people are at different levels of intelligence, and knowledge, and we all have the right to choose to live by what we know as correct, or not. What is right to one another may not see as right and perhaps might not be right for them.
Tmuf
smallone, It shouldn't be lived because it's against the law.
it should be lived only if consenting adults enter it of there own free will, without coercion. These are the pragmatic answers. the moral answers have been being researched and field tested by various cults, cultural groupes and other organizations all through human history. asumeing there is going to be a great judgement day, all who have participated in the practice will have this question answered at that time. However, it may be interesting to have the for's and against's
discuss the advantages and disadvantages of it.
What if they outlawed baptism of any form Uncaduff? Would you then be against baptism?
Im against government getting
involved in my personal life.
I don't agree with the law against against polygamy, I don't agree with the seat belt law, I don't agree with the law that says I cant own my house because of property tax. but here we are.
Look up the word pragmatic, and I think you will get my meaning in the above post.
5:29
What if they outlawed stupid questions? Would you keep asking them?
I agree with the following statement on marriage that declares marriage other than one man one woman to be a sin, rejecting alturnative lifestyles such as plural & gay marriage, what's your opinion?:
"We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
"In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.
"The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
"We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.
"Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. 'Children are an heritage of the Lord' (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
"The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
"We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society" (Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102).
Here's a statement that seems to agree with Uncle Duff's opinion about polygamy not being practiced due to it's violation of the law, but goes one step further and alls polygamy against God's law. From a sermon given by Gordon B. Hinckley, October 1998 at LDS church conference.
Question 4: What is the Church’s position on polygamy?
We are faced these days with many newspaper articles on this subject. This has arisen out of a case of alleged child abuse on the part of some of those practicing plural marriage.
I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members. They are in violation of the civil law. They know they are in violation of the law. They are subject to its penalties. The Church, of course, has no jurisdiction whatever in this matter.
If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church. An article of our faith is binding upon us. It states, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law” (A of F 1:12). One cannot obey the law and disobey the law at the same time.
There is no such thing as a “Mormon Fundamentalist.” It is a contradiction to use the two words together.
More than a century ago God clearly revealed unto His prophet Wilford Woodruff that the practice of plural marriage should be discontinued, which means that it is now against the law of God. Even in countries where civil or religious law allows polygamy, the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage.
I dont like people telling me how to live, which is why i dont live in CC anymore, but thats exactly what the government is doing. So i think that if the all the adults consent to it, what is the big deal??
9:40 AM.
I agree if the consent is a result of a rational thought process, rather than rhetoric or dogma based on emotion or deception.
10:18 PM
The manifesto given to Wilford Woodruff clearly indicates "TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN". If you were to search a little deeper into church history, there were some odd things going on. While preaching against this practice publicly, most of the authorities were living it in their personal lives. EVEN AFTER THE MANIFESTO. Say at least 30 years, if not more, after it was put out to the public. Now why would the authorities of the church continue to live it, if they knew it was wrong?
D&C 132:63 says that it is to glorify God. I think it's sort of humbling if you live it correctly.
Anon 2/19/2008 9:42 AM:
I wonder why people think Plural Marriage is a sin. I know for myself that it is a correct principle and must be lived to attain the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. I also know that most people I have known that enter the principle, do not live it correctly. So it is not for everyone. So why is it so bad to some people, for a man to claim two women as wives, take care of them and treat them as wives in every sense of the word, and for some reason it is not quite as bad for a man to have a wife and a mistress? Or is it? To me, THAT is awful.
I have learned it is not the taking of multiple wives that most people object to. It is all the other 'little' things that come with it. Nearly everyone I have met out here among the 'gentiles' are ready to live and let live. Most of them men joke that it would be great to have more than one wife for obvious reasons (which we all know the FLDS do not do). The thing that most people don;t like is the marrying of young girls to men old enough to be their grandfathers. Girls who are not old enough or have been coerced against their will to marry. They don't like the reported abuses. They don't like the governmental fraud they hear about.
But, really they don't give a darn about the "celestial law" as long as no one gets hurt.
It is just as hard for the 'gentiles' to see your view point as it is for you to see theirs. They also KNOW their way is right and are comfortable living the way they do.
September 27, 1886
My son John: You have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant and how far it is binding upon my people.
Thus saith the Lord All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority and how can I revoke an everlasting covenant.
For I the Lord am everlasting and my covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with; but they stand forever.
Have I not given my word in great plainness on this subject?
Yet have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance of my law and the keeping of my commandment, and yet have I borne with them these many years and this because of their weakness because of the perilous times. And furthermore it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters.
Nevertheless I the Lord do not change and my word and my covenants and my law do not.
And as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph all those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law.
And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham's seed and would enter into my glory they must do the works of Abraham.
I have not revoked this law nor will I for it is everlasting and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof, even so Amen
Are you sure the FLDS don't do certain things? If you're referring to birth control, are you sure? Or were you being sarcastic?
Fine with me if consenting adults want to practice polygamy.
But don't make me as a taxpayer foot the bill. Don't take more wives and have more children than YOU can afford. Because I don't want to have to pay for the food stamps and Medicaid for them.
Ok I have a question for the biggest mouth..... Suppose you married a wife and had a child and she died. So after a few years you married another and she gave you a few children. After you have gone to heaven which wife and children do you pick to be with you eternally???? And what happens to the other???
Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
15:8 This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me.
15:9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.
anon 2/21/2008 9:45 AM-
I did not meaning birth control.
I meant orgies and threesomes.
I actually do not have a problem with plural marriage. I think if lived the way it was meant to be lived it can be a great thing to everyone involved IF those involved CHOOSE that life without community and family pressure. Have teenagers marrying men who are old enough to be their grandfathers and being told the day before of the day of is nothing more than a pedophile getting his jollies. If you can take care of the children and your multiple families then that is great but don't think you are entitled to money from the government to feed them. "Bleeding the beast" is stealing not to mention lying when you tell someone that you are a single mother. If you say you really ARE married according to God's law but use man's law to get welfare, WIC, unemployment, etc how does that make you someone who is ready for the Celestial Kingdom?
I have problems with plural marriage.
180+ wives Warren Jeffs?
20+ wives Winston Blackmore?
0 wives Street?
Hey, can Warren or Winston spare Street a wife. Maybe it would give him something better to do than write endless revelations and memories of body functions.
street was a wife.
We are Americans. As Americans, we have the right to be a member of any religious denomination we desire and to exercise this right freely.
Polygamy is NOT the issue many Americans have with Fundamentalists, or anyone else wishing to practice plural marriage. Both men and women can benefit from plural marriage. The common viewpoint taken usually describes the advantages of a male with many wives. Socially, many women would find definite advantages to the same situation. For a plural wife, the marriage comes with "built-in" girlfriends, baby-sitters and caretakers. These circumstances alone make plural marriage a viable option for women. A wife not sleeping with her husband every night makes plural marriage even more appealing for some women.
Polygamy is not the issue. The issues are circumstances which Americans detest, with or without religious connotation. The abuse of women and children in America cannot be tolerated under the guise of "religious freedom."
Young girls and women cannot be denied their rights. They cannot be forced into marriages against their will. Young girls, not of legal age, cannot marry. Women cannot be held against their will. These illegal practices are kidnapping, rape and sexual molestation.
Step-fathers cannot be allowed to marry step-daughters. This is a gross misuse of the "care and control" concept of parents.
Minors cannot be abandoned by their families. Child abandonment is also an abuse of the care and control concept of parents.
The point here is not to say these offenses do not happen in our society outside of certain religious sects. But, in America, when these offenses are discovered, the perpetrators are prosecuted by law.
To most Americans, religious beliefs and practices are not issues. Any one or any group of people abusing women and children will always be condemned by a majority of American society.
(To the weblog administrator - I have followed this blog, and several other sites for some time. I never felt comfortable enough to post here until after February 18. Thank you for trying to keep open, frank dialogue without the ranting and raving of lunatics.)
Anon 2/21/2008 4:16 PM-
No. I am not saying FLDS are not aware of the concept of orgies and threesomes. I am saying they don't have them.
I will quote my previous post so there will be no room for misunderstanding this time:
Most of them men joke that it would be great to have more than one wife for obvious reasons (which we all know the FLDS do not do).
You seem like you might be ex- FLDS also? If so, why are you questioning me? Are you trying to prove something? My wickedness, maybe?
Let's just skip the drama and call me wicked.
bbgae,
I appreciate what you are saying but didn't Laureen J. say that Marie joined her and Val in their marriage bed? Val admitted to such on national TV.
If this isn't a threesome, then I guess I don't what one is.
Didn't meant to hit a nerve there. I was just hinting that people aren't as holy as they sometimes appear, and I am sure that within the FLDS, orgies do happen, just not openly.
Appears to be more force-some than threesomes.
Anon 2/22/2008 8:39 PM-
I did not know Val said that on tv. I did not know anything about it.
Of course, I will agree with you that people are never as righteous as they seem.
My ex 'husband' was a master deceiver- pretending to be so very righteous and living a totally different life in his home where no one could see.
But you understand what I was trying to say, right?
Even if that does happen, most people don't do it. And, I am pretty sure if the men in charge knew, said man would loose his family for it. (Even in the supposed event the men in charge were guilty of the same thing).
Anon 2/23/2008 1:35 PM:
Lol. I agree.
is the Elsie Jessop in the spectrum article about Jeffs, Elsie Black that was married to Paul Jessop?
The polygamy that I grew up with was very lonely for the women and the children and it must have been frusterating for my father to try and keep all those people happy and fed. Myself being a product of a second wife I always felt 2nd best. then he married his "Lamanite" woman and I was 3rd best! Soon a much younger woman came along and I was 4th best! Also we later discovered he was confused about who he was allowed or not allowed, to fondle!
Celestial Marriage? Ha! what a farce.
2/20/2008 1:42 PM wrote:
"The manifesto given to Wilford Woodruff clearly indicates "TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN". If you were to search a little deeper into church history, there were some odd things going on. While preaching against this practice publicly, most of the authorities were living it in their personal lives. EVEN AFTER THE MANIFESTO. Say at least 30 years, if not more, after it was put out to the public. Now why would the authorities of the church continue to live it, if they knew it was wrong?"
Would it have been better for them to have kicked out their families the minute they received the Manifesto? They were still morally responsible for the family they had created. Some did use that as a reason to 'simplify'. Families split up for lots of different reasons and in many different ways. Some men hadn't really created good relationships with any of their women/families, and they were the ones left alone, while the women that were truly 'sister-wifes' stayed together. The Word of Wisdom was another 'revelation' that took time to become accepted. It takes time to change.... It seems unfair that I can work SOO hard and long to lose weight, and then put it back on without thinking.
realula
It always amuses me when people justify polygamy by bringing up adultery. Isn't that something to steer away from? I am not for embracing such cruel behavior by marrying it. In my opinion polygamy is a crime against humanity. Even the people who seem to be living it "right" and are happy are a bad example to the rest of the power hungry males thinking they can do the same if not better. I believe that every child deserves a full time father, not a half stranger they see every few nights, depending on how many wives there are. If the father isn't there as a help mate that leaves the raising and education up to the mother. If she's not happy and fulfilled her children won't be either.
Deist
Let's take a vote.
All women who are married to a man with more than one wife, are you unhappy? Do you get less out of life because you don't have your husband to yourself?
For myself, my husband has another wife and I do get more out of life. It has been a great opportunity to overcome some of my weaknesses and I grow from the experience. I love my husband and my sister wife, and we do what we can to get along. We are happy.
And all the children of plural families, do you feel deprived? My father had more than one wife, and I certainly don't feel deprived. I love my brothers and sisters from the other wives just as much as I do the ones from my own mother. We consider ourselves full siblings.
I'll take your vote.
I am not now married to a man who has multiple wives, but I used to be.
Yes, I felt deprived. I felt unloved. I felt like I was being cheated from having the relationship with my husband that I ought to have had. I always felt like I was intruding on 'their' family.
Diest, Anon2/27/2008 11:07 AM-
There doesn't seem to be much difference between a single mother raising her children and a polygamous mother from your description.
No one is complaining about the deprived children of single parent homes.
Is your religion the reason for practicing plural marriage.
If you take religion out of polygamy would you still participate in it?
Question for 3:48 p.m.
---and for some reason it is not quite as bad for a man to have a wife and a mistress?---
Several past posts have held polygamy up as a higher standard than what most of us live, and it is assumed that a large portion of us regular males have a wife and a mistress. I have several friends and know a lot of people, and no one that I know has a wife and a mistress. I'm sure it happens, but it is not the normal run-of-the-mill behavior. And it is not normally accepted behavior.
And for myself, one pain-in-the-ass wife (whom I love dearly) is enough. I'm not bragging or complaining, but I've been completely faithful to her throughout our marriage. That's just something I believe is the right thing to do. I don't have the constitution to put up with another woman, and believe me, they wouldn't have the where with all to put up with me...it goes both ways.
I grew up in CC and in our family, polygamy didn't work very well at all. My dad was very loving and kind and treated his wives and all of his children very well. It was the women that had problems with each other. I thought it worked in Merril's family, but I recently read the book and apparently it wasn't so good there either.
And just because a man has more than one wife doesn't mean he won't get a mistress or two. I was quite naive when I was growing up and thought that people in CC only slept with their wives, that you would go to hell if you strayed. And it isn't just the men. In high school I learned that some CC men find mistresses and not all wives sit around the house for years waiting for their husband to pay attention to them...they go looking for it. Shocked the hell out of me.
For those of you in polygamy, please don't tell the rest of us how great it is; many of us have seen it first hand and have direct knowledge of several polygamous relationships that appear to be working on the surface...but underneath the facade it's an ugly mess. And there are several that are ugly all the way through.
But I agree with the idea that you can live what you want as long as you are of legal age to make the decision yourself and are not coerced into it.
And...And don't ask me pay for any of it. No food stamps, no WIC, no welfare, no extra taxes. Do what you want when you are of legal age and then pay for it yourselves.
LTG
bbgae said...
2/27/2008 3:53 PM
No one is complaining about the deprived children of single parent homes.
Your comment brought things into a much better perspective for me. Thank you. The secular man who has 1 wife with 2 young children and another 3 children born around the same time as his children born in wedlock with 2 other different women is not much different. Considering the husband/father doesn't work, none of his children are receiving any support from him.
Good point. You don't have to be involved in polygamy to be a deadbeat dad.
I don't care what anyone says, Warren does NOT have over 180 wives. That's a very gross exaggeration.
Frazz-
Good point. You don't have to be involved in polygamy to be a deadbeat dad.
But not all polygamous dads are dead beats, either. Most of them work very hard to provide the bare necessities
to their multitudes of children.
And you are forgetting another aspect as well. The women in a plural home have the advantage of keeping their children home with another mother while they work. IF they could/ would do it, they then have a two or three income home to provide for their multitudes. They have the ability to be self sufficient this way if they but try.
How many kids in your family BBGAE?
My Dad has 6 wives, 48 kids,my grandfather had 19 wives, 65 kids,.I think that is just way too many ways for a husband's attention,or money to be spread.Some one always winds up neglected,even if the man has good intentions.
ok, sbarlow how many wives does
Warren have?
Before Rulon 10-20 21-30 31-40 41-50 51-81 61-70
after Rulon death.......
set the record straight.
Anon 2/29/2008 12:07 AM-
It's not about my family or your family. I completely agree with you that is way too many people for one man alone to take care of both physically and mentally. Absolutely someone is going to be neglected. Of course, the other side of that is everyone has more 'freedom' to do what they want, and/or think they should without being watched so very closely.
But that doesn't make the father of the family a dead beat. It just makes him stupid for overextending himself (becasue he was told to marry so many women and did, or because he just decided to) to a point where no matter what he does, no matter how hard he tries, someone is going to be hurt.
If he really loved any of them he would have stopped before they were so numerous it was a choice between neglecting everyone or neglecting some.
bbgae,
I have to say I disagree with you. IMO, plural marriage was given as a saving principle. If the husband understands his position as head of the family correctly, that he was put there to lead and guide and try to point the right way, his family will love him for it and I believe they will try to do right and get along. Women naturally are more inclined to jealousy, and plural marriage is a chance to overcome that weakness a little sooner if we will let it, besides other weaknesses. It helps the husband grow also, for it is not an easy responsibility. One of the main reasons plural marriage was instituted, was so more children could be born under the covenant, and be taught the saving principles of the gospel. I know men that would have been happy to have just one wife, but were asked to take more, and they did, FULL WELL KNOWING THE RESPONSIBILITY, but they felt it was their duty to the Lord. In other words, they didn't want the responsibility. Men that want to get another wife, often are the ones that think their wife must bow and scrape to them, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE HEAD, and they are often so full of importance that there is no room in the house for the wives or children.
I believe it can be lived correctly, but it takes willingness on the part of every party involved.
Anon 3/01/2008 3:06 PM-
That is all well and good.
I was just trying to point out the difference between a real, dead beat dad (who does absolutely nothing but sit on the couch drinking beer and watching tv and yelling at his wife) and an overextended polygamous dad who simply takes on a huge responsibility.
The deprivation from a real dead beat dad stems from his own selfishness, and laziness, whereas the deprivation from a polygamous dad comes from being overextended. The polygamous dad is neither selfish nor lazy.
"Women naturally are more inclined to jealousy, and plural marriage is a chance to overcome that weakness a little sooner if we will let it, besides other weaknesses."
Let's see you men share your wife with other men! I don't believe it's a weekness either, in fact the opposite! It's a survival instinct.
bbgae whichever way you look at it as to how the father is a dead beat, you STILL have children who are lacking the attention they deserve!
Deist
Warren Jeffs
the UEP
the united order
Polygamy
SUCKS!
"continuing revelation" and "a living constitution" are two colors of the same dog. they both override rule by law, and give rise to arbitrary rule.
Deist
3/02/2008 11:08 AM-
Yes. But there is only neglect when the polygamous dad has too many Dependants.
A polygamous family comprised of one man, two wives and eight children is no different (figuratively speaking) than a monogamous family comprised of one man, one wife and nine children. There is the exact number of people in each family, and the exact number of places for the father's attention to be pulled.
A polygamous dad only becomes (unwillingly) neglectful when there are far too many places for his attention.
And...why is it all about the dad's lack of attention? Why is it ONLY HIS responsibility? I have proven the women have the ability to help bring income into the home. Now, as for the attention aspect: What about the other family members? It's just as much their responsibility to make good relationships with each other as it is the father? Isn't it a mother's responsibility to look after ALL the children? Isn't it a brother's and sister's responsibility to look after each other? In the absence of a father, the family should pull together. If they do not, it's their own fault. A family is still a family and it should act like one.
I think you have some abandonment/anger/ self-worth issues.
Stop being the victim. It hurts less that way.
I know.
For those who have missed Warren's voice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbudqrmFSDs
Plenty more where this came from.
Warren explaining POLYGAMY.
fincenMIB
Someone above said, "Why make polygamy illegal if someone chooses to live it and it doesn't hurt anyone else." Well, what about the children who are born into it and choose not to live it (they are living polygamy if they're living with polygamous parents)? Where do they go if they don't want to live it? Polygamy effects the entire family. Just because it's not hurting you doesn't mean it's not hurting others. But all of this is besides the point b/c it's ILLEGAL and I believe the law of the land overrides religious law.
Anon3/05/2008 9:57 PM-
The law of the land is only enforced popular moral standards. All it would take is enough people to put together a bill to legalize polygamy and then vote it into a law- and believe me, there are enough polygamous people here in Utah to9 make that a conceivable possibility- for polygamy to become legalized and then you would loose your whole point.
In the D&C the Lord tells his people to only obey the laws of the land which are Constitutional. The Constitution quarantees freedom of religion as well as speech and the press. If you believe in the D&C, doesn't that tell you something? And I totally agree with bbgae.
3:59.
the D&C, is the babbling of a charlatan.
Honestly, I'm not sure whether gay and plural marriage are moral or not. I do think Traditional marriage should be protected however. I could see decriminalizing polygamy. Gay marriage isn't illegal, and neither is committing adultery (at least to my knowledge..if so, it's not talked about or enforced, and the participants are not considered criminals)
Thankfully, I will never need to have a solid opinion on gay or plural marriage, as my choice is, and always will be straight monogamy. The right or wrong of choices between consenting adults where no one really is getting hurt really isn't my business. (It is other people's business requiring intervention when criminal acts are occurring such as molestation and abuse..and this happens in all communities.) The truth will become known when we all meet our Maker.
12:45.
what are the parameters that determine morality? it seems to me that it's determined by the culture under consideration, that is, by the culture in which the the acts under consideration, are being judged. As has been mentioned, in many cultures polygamy is deemed moral. in ancient Greece, homosexuality wasn't necessarily immoral.
as for me, I would measure it by a factor that would determine if a specific act is harmful to an individual or society in general.
Now the question arises, what is harmful and what is a mere conveniences. as it is, it seems that public opinion determines morality in a specific society.
Next question, who steers public opinion?
This could go on, but Ive been summons by the one who determines my course of action, so ...gotta go
Now the question arises, what is harmful and what is a mere conveniences.
the word should have been Inconvenience,
the above post has garnered some criticism, above and beyond the mentioned typographical error.
I have been likened to Street, for irrelevant rambling and long windedness.
for lo these past month, my posts have been marked by brevity and deep philosophical meaning. no one, but no one, has deemed me a philosopher.
Now with just one post that gets a little windy, I am accused of irrelevance, rambling and long windedness!
Oh justice where art thou? (:<
you people are bloody insane. belief in something is one thing. Utter and blind, idiot faith in something with no backing is quite another thing. DIAF.
of course, the blog author won't allow this to be posted on the blog, because while he values HIS freedom of speech, he doesn't like those who dare use their own right to it to make a point.
In short, believe whatever you wish. But the moment you allow common sense to take a backseat, you are lying to yourself.
I see a lot of you saying you hate how the government involves itself in your lives. The fact is, the government exists to protect people from outside forces, from each other, and when needed, from themselves. I imagine if any of you were wrongly being assaulted by someone, you would probably call the police, so they would come and help. The government makes and enforces laws set by a *majority* in a community, state, and country. They cannot make and enforce laws that each individual person thinks are personally "right." In this case, the government has an interest in protecting young girls from being physically and sexually abused.
Concerning polygamy, it's quite hard not to see it as religious justification for old men to have sex with young girls. That seems to be a large part of many older men's fantasies, so yes, quite convenient that it is made "right" by God. I saw may comments as well about consenting adults choosing the polygamist lifestyle. Underage girls are not consenting adults. Even if a woman was of legal age, the very fact that she's been raised in a secluded community, being taught that it's right, hardly makes such a choice of her own free will. There are many other arguments against polygamy that could be made, but I'll just see what people say to what I've said so far.
If anyone out there is considering leaving polygamy but is afraid, don't be. You CAN be happy with a man who loves you and who will be by your side every day AND night. He will be there for you financially, emotionally, intellectually, he will be your best friend. He will be faithful to you and your children.
Making an argument for polygamy because adultery is bad is absurd. Just find a good man and he won't get a mistress or try to marry another women and break your heart.
My husband loves only me, we are best friends. We have a little boy and he is the joy of our lives. I feel so sorry for the women in polygamy who are trying to "overcome their weakness" of loving their husband and not liking the thought of him in bed with another woman. SO SAD.
I'd like to hear from one adult woman that has been educated in the "real" world, turn to polygamy as a life choice. I'd like to hear from one adult woman that has not been raised by polygamists explain why she turned to polygamy as a lifestyle choice. Are there any?
Male answers matter not. They are the perpetrators not victims in this lifestyle. Female children are targets. Male children are abandoned by their own community because the Elders need to horde the uneducated, obedient female children for their own perverse abuse and usage.
Is there such a thing as an educated-outside, adult polygamist woman that has made this choice? Is there?
(New King James Version)
1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife.
Gen 2:24
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
1 Cor 7:2
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
Matthew 19:4-6
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Man has twisted the bible to suit their needs time and time again. Use all the bible scripture you want to justify these men who are committing child molestation. My understanding of "woman" is a female of legal age. WHEN DID IT BECOME MARRY A CHILD????
it IS child molestation, no matter what beliefs a religious cult cloaks their perverted desires with.
In Jesus' day, religious leaders had perverted God's way. And they still are today. Jesus said, "the law and the prophets were until John" (John the Baptist) Any that are prophets today are self made and usually as in this recent episode at Waco, they will sooner or later teach their followers that he is Jesus Christ or "the voice of God"! Prophets? more like "perverts". How sad, to know people are being "brain washed" today.
I have nothing against a man having more than one wife. But to keep children in captivity and force them to do something against their will is "RAPE". If you CHOOSE to do something that is your CHOICE but do not inflict pain and suffering on a minor, a child. This is not what GOD has intended for us at all!!! You people twist everything for your benifet. This is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The land of the free. These women and children were NOT free. That is the violation that this specific group made. That is why it is wrong.
I believe polygamy should be legal for both sexes. If a woman or man wants more than one spouse then it should be their choice. Having more than one partner legally and out in the open is better for everyone than adultery. I do not have a particular religous affilition, I simply believe that is makes sense and is morally more honest than people who have endless affairs and have children who end up being raised in poverty in one parent households. If polygamy was legal then it would be bound by laws of age of consent, spousal and child support, and so on.
Alright I’m going to make it clear to every one before I state my opinion that I am not bias. I do not persecute these people because of their religion. I’m a Christian and my mom is a Wicca and I don’t persecute her or other people of her faith. So if these people want to have several wives because of their religion that’s fine with me but when children are getting abused I draw the line. I don’t care if you are the president of the United States, if you are having sex with an underage child it is rape, no exceptions. Just because a girl can have children doesn’t mean she is ready to have one. If we allow this to happen just because of religion then what is the difference between people sacrificing their child because of their religion? There isn’t, in fact it is worse to sexually abuse a child then to murder it. I know this only to well. If there is any proof of these children being sexually, physically, or mentally abused they should be removed. If we don’t do that we have failed them.
I agree completely with elenor, when it affects children, who have not even experienced other ways of living, and infringing on their rights, it is wrong.
Waterboarding babies?!?! Mind control over women?!?! I am sorry, these bunch of perverts should all get the chair!
I don't care what your opinions are on Polygamy, there are other issues here that need attention.
This is an extremely touchy case. I think that it isn’t the religion that is evil just a lot of the people. I'm almost certain that young girls have been molested but what about the ones who haven't? Should we remove them as well? I’m sure not all participated in this and if they didn’t and we take their children away isn’t that wrong as well? If we just assume that all of them are child molesters then we are being raciest, so what should we do? I think over all this case is a double edge sword. If we don’t do anything we have failed many children but if we go all out we are still doing wrong. Where is the middle ground?
I think you are all cazy. Someday when you meet God you will have clarity. But then you will have missed your opportunity to have true love with a life partner (one partner)a partner that you do not have to share. Sharing a partner (in the physiacl sense) is absolutely disgusting and in my opinion a sign of insecurity.
First of all. I have been married to my husband for 20 years and there is absolutely no way I would want to share him with anyone. It says in the bible that you do not own your body, your body belongs to your husband and your husband doesn't own his body his wife does. If your sharing it with 10 woman that who really owns it. He still owns his wife but his wife doesn't own him.
Secondly, I was watching the news and there was some DUMB idiot on the news that said "SEE HERE, COMES TO ME THAT IN THE STATE OF TEX ASS YOU CAN MARRY AT 14."
That is one sick s.O.B. a 50 plus year old man thinking it's ok to marry a 14 year old girl. She is a baby at that age.
Tell me a grown man finds a 14 year old girl old enough to be a WOMAN.
I am a respectful, yes, submissive wife. But I'm also a human being, and the days of moses in the mud pits is over. So are the days that women aren't allowed to own a house or get mail
So hello you freaks. Quit condoning your nasty filthy behavior.
Then let me ask you this.
Is it ok for your wife or wives to be swingers with others.
You probably condone that too.
YES YOU ARE FREAKS.
NO OTHER EXPLANATION.
You are child molesting, rapist, perverts, mind controlling, horrible men. And if god himself came down I am sure he would not be so proud of your behavior. And I do recall it says something in the bible about not hurting the children.
thou who has no sin cast the first stone. Well, I will never proclaim to have no sin. But I wouldn't want to trade places with you on judgement day.
I feel bad for your kids and your soul.
for a man to claim two women as wives, take care of them and treat them as wives in every sense of the word, and for some reason it is not quite as bad for a man to have a wife and a mistress? Or is it? To me, THAT is awful.
Okay take care of his wifes, Aren't most of you on welfare and feeding off the government? Food Stamps, health insurance, WIC, etc. I know that I am a lawful citizen and when I had children both my husband and I had to support them, not the tax payers, If you and your husband choose to have that many children, then the both of you should support them not me. I pay taxes and when things get rough I go get a second job. What would happen if the government took all the support away from you, would you really be inclined to have so many babies you could not feed. Get a job and stop living off the government. Also the children are in a better place, where they will not end up on the welfare cycle.
I find it unbelievable that there is even a dispute regarding this. I am not religious in any way. For my own personal reasons. Yet when i get up in a morning, i give me kids a hug and tell them to have a nice day at school i go out in to the world and hold doors open for people, i give money to the starving and if someone is in trouble i try to find a way to help. If i am in the street and someone falls i will always stop to see if they are ok. In a nut shell, i know the difference between right and wrong, so did the leaders of the FLDS they chose again and again to ignore both federal and state laws and if you want to bring religion into it, didnt someone die on a cross to stop the suffering of others???? if thats the case why doesnt warren jeffs do the same. that way maybe the suffering of these women and children will stop. I just read escape and Carolyn Jessop tells a story that has horrified me. Again and again i am seeing stories and hearing things that no one can possibly convince me could be done in the name of religion. If this story came out of iraq or afghanistan the whole of america would be up in arms and your soldiers would be in there resucing the victims. Why are you all so bothered by BS when children are suffering. And as for this BS about women being natuarally more jealous.... i hate to tell you this but most men are only as faithful as their opportunities.
Quote from previous comment: "I believe people are at different levels of intelligence, and knowledge, and we all have the right to choose to live by what we know as correct, or not".
See, thats the problem, everyone wants to make God what ever he/she wants him to be. As if there is no real truth but only the truth we make it. But thats B.S. There is one Truth and one God and God is not whatever you want to make him or whatever you want to believe in. The Bible is the WORD of GOD and what is TRUTH and what is CORRECT. If i told you to write on a peice of paper that I like apples, did you write it or did I? The bible was written by man but the holly spirit (God) told them what to write. The bible is God's words and is the WORD of God. God is not who we make him to be but he is God and the word of God is clear on such matters. Try reading the WORD of God somtime. By the way RELIGON is an evil dragon. Jesus Christ wants a RELATIONSHIP with you not a RELIGON with you. Seek and you shall find...Seek a RELATIONSHIP with the Lord and read God's WORD and repent of your sins and embark on a RELATIONSHIP with the Lord and all your questions will be answered. The 10 commandments were not there for us to live up to them for no man could ever live up to them entirely...but they were created to show us our SIN. So we as people would know what SIN is and recognize our SIN. What is your intent..is it honestly to seek God or to disproof him? If you truely want to seek God then you will find him. Like I said before, the WORD of God (Bible) is quite clear on such matters as these here so my answer is to honestly and whole heartly seek the Lord and the Lord will answer your questions about what is right and what is wrong and what is truth and what are lies.
John:1 1, In the beginning there was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and GOD was the WORD.
I keep seeing people quoting from the Bible against polygamy... But there are also quotes promoting "concubines", which is polygamy.
I think that if the polygamist marraiges are lived the way they were meant to be, then it's a beautiful family, living the Gospel and raising amazing children into beautiful people.
I could only wish for something like that.
I'm in a monogamous, lifeless marraige, raising 3 children, afraid to have anymore because I couldn't support them, even though we both work fulltime. I feel like I don't get help around the house or with the kids... I have no family other than my children.
If it was the rightous way, I would welcome being a 3rd wife in a HAPPY family. I'd have a huge family, 2 wonderful sisters that help me with the kids and the house... and yeah, even helping with the husband.
Next topic... I think 15 is too young for children in our society to marry. However, the people on the ranch were raised different. They mature faster. They don't have gameboys and TV to keep them at home till they're 18. They were raised like my grandmother... Old Fashiond. She's Catholic, she married my grandfather when she was 15 and he was 18.
They built a house together that they lived in till the day they died.
I find a 14 yr old and a 50 yr old to be offensive, but I've seen no proof of that. Just Rumors.
I hope it's ok that I posted.
in 2004, my children were taken from me for 2 weeks over something I didn't do. It ripped my heart out. I felt like I died with every breath I took. So when I heard about all the mothers who had their children ripped away, I couldn't help but to feel the pain and empathize deeply.
"If people want live polygamy and can do so without hurting anyone I say they should."
The problem is this: Who is going to be the judge of who is getting hurt?
Polygamy is illegal. Those who live polygamy say it is a higher law. The problem is this: the very laws that will make polygamy legal (sodomy, consenting adults, gay marriage) are the declining moral values that are making our society worse off. So to say that it is OK to live a higher law by using a lower moral law to make it legal is backwards.
I don't know if this comment will even be read because the posting was so long ago. I don't see anything wrong with plural marriage if it is by choice. I do see it wrong to force a child to marry somebody older and who they do not want to be with. I still believe in marrying for love, it may not have worked out the way I wanted it to but love needs to be in the marriage. I was never in a plural marriage but that doesn't mean I might never be either. To have somebody who loves his wife (wives) and children is more important than having somebody who would rather neglect his family and throw them out like they are trash. I'm a single mother to four wonderful kids, raising them without the help of anybody. Their father wanted only 1 of them and nothing at all to do with the baby. I have seen how the relationships can be. Who are we to judge?
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