Tuesday, April 17, 2007

God and Evloution

God created the Earth and all things therein (I think that might be a quote from somewhere...)

Evolution is a natural process taking hundreds of thousands of years to ensure the survival and adaption of various species of life... blah, blah, blah... We all know the rest.

I personally don't see why there has to be a debate on this one, because I think God USES evolution.... But, I know there are many people who fell VERY strongly about one side or the other. So, I made this thread just for a debate on this subject. I think it will be interesting... Tell us what you think!

C'mon! You know I love science.... of COURSE I was going to do this.... :)


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ATAR_i said...

I have seen very interesting shows on natural selection, and I don't see any contradiction in the Bible with natural selection.

I truly believe that some of the dating done on the earth is potentially accurate.

However, having said that - I also allow that it could have been created miraculously in a literal 7 days.

Because God created a woman, does not mean that all women had to be miraculously created, they were created with the structure already there to move on, without need for more miraculous interevention.

In that same way I can picture a rock, or formation, or area formed, created as if it had lived for millions of years, yet just new that moment.

If you allow for the possibility of divine intervention, then anything is possible.

Possible that the earth is billions of years old, possible that it is thousands.

The only thing that I do not see as a possibility is that man and beast were accidental, or that they can morph from one to another given enough time.

The same belief that allows me to believe that no matter what, God was the architect of the planet, also compels me to believe that he created man separate, apart, different.

I find no fault with those trying to explain the existence of the world, it is natural to need to know. I think much of what they learn is complimentary, and expository, or narrative of scientific principles of life, and existence. However, the compulsion to ensure that nothing divine or miraculous creeps into the science of it - is what causes the great divide.

I believe with all sincerity that both sides need to RESPECT the others rudimentary beliefs, and that compulsion to trash or DISRESPECT another viewpoint is intellectual bullying, and does not allow for the fact that much known to be truth for a time, has been found to be wrong - THUS - they violate their own open mind, in favor of a CLOSED MIND - which is clearly what they feel they oppose. IT'S HYPOCRITICALLY SANCTIMONIOUS DRIVEL

Anonymous said...

So what about global warming.How does it compare.

Anonymous said...

Global warming was caused when Atari was abducted by Aliens, brainwashed and returned to earth so she could dispense morsels of wisdom to otherwise unenlightened pligs and wannabe pligs on the Texas Blog.

Anonymous said...

It's interesting that you bring up the word...Science... God himself uses the very principals of science,Nature,...ect... in ALL that he does. It's just that some of his Children have strayed away from the knowledge of this and become idoiets and then HAVE to PROVE these common, natural elements of Science in their own way to prove or (disprove?) something.

Anonymous said...

Which has been happening long before warren came along.So what about Al Gore's theories.

Anonymous said...

Al Gore...HA! The geologic record indicates that there have been at least twenty ice ages, spaced roughtly 200,000 years apart, with distinct cooling and warming trends in between. Given that the most recent ice age ended 20,000 years ago, we are obviously in the midst of another warming cycle, a cycle that was well established long befor Al Gore, or his carbon footprint, ever oozed out of the slime and stood upright on dry ground.

On the other hand, the Biblical record says the world is somewhere between 5,000 and 7,000 years old. Either way, Al Gore is wrong.

By the way, Atari, I believe God created the world in six days, just like is says in Genesis. He created it fully formed with birds and animals and plants and...a history. If it were not so then the trees in the Garden of Eden could not stand, they wouldn't have had any rings. Likewise Adam wouldn't have had any hair, it takes time to grow, which means it must have grown in the past, the pre-creation past, which accounts for the dinosaurs, and the pre-creation ice ages.

I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that Al Gore is a throwback to one of those pre-creation cavemen. Maybe he could get a job as a GEICO caveman. Then they could change their saying to, "It's so easy an unemployed Neanderthal of a politician could do it."

Anonymous said...

Brigham Young said in his teachings that the Lord took PARTS of other Earths to make up this Earth, that accounts for the fossils and prehistoric finds.

The Earth its self is only 7000 years old since its creation/formation.

BUT...PARTS of other Earths were used to create this Earth so...

Debate it if you will, it does not change the truth...and the PROPHETS...Speak the TRUTH.!!

Enough said.

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute. Al Gore is one thing, but Brigham Young? Sorry friend, now your getting into science fiction. Stick to the Bible, or to Darwin, either one will serve you better than false prophets like Smith and Young and Jeffs.

Enough said.

Anonymous said...

Each to his own..

TBM said...

I'm pleased to see you're alive if not completely well, Street.

Although the authors of Genesis could have come up with any version of events that entered their imaginations, the order that Genesis 1 gives for the emergence of various things largely agrees with the geologists. It's the time scale that people argue over.

Genesis 1 is clear that God did not create the earth until the third day. Clearly, therefore, when the Bible talks of a "day", it cannot be refering to the 24-hour period that it takes for the earth to accomplish a single revolution. How do you do something according to a time scale that has not yet been invented?

For example, if I asked you to do something within the next "polygamist", assuming that at some point in the future, time will be measured in "polygamists", could you do it?

In the same way, God cannot create light within the time it took the non-existent earth not to revolve. This does not imply some kind of limitation on God's power; it's just illogical.

A day can also mean "an era". Children talk about "the olden days", and elderly people talk about "Back in my day". We say "in the day of the dinosaurs" or make movies titled "Day of the Living Dead". So I think Genesis probably means, "In the first era of the creation, God said Let there be light" and "In the third era", God created the earth.

From this POV, the creation could indeed have taken billions of years. As to the precise method God used to create the earth, the Bible gives no allusions. The Bible is and always has been primarily a work of religion, not science. It tells us what God did, and does not attempt to detail how He did it.

10.56: Brigham Young said in his teachings that the Lord took PARTS of other Earths to make up this Earth, that accounts for the fossils and prehistoric finds. The Earth its self is only 7000 years old since its creation/formation

This is where my little theory runs into a problem. Brigham Young may simply have been speculating at the time he said that -- although I've heard it before, I don't know what the source is, and I don't think any of his successors have repeated it (at least, not in the LDS church -- although it is LDS doctrine that God created the earth from pre-existent materials, and did not make it appear from nothing). The Bible is quite definite that the earth was created about 4000 BC. Whether or not this is dated from the time that God got done with the creation, I don't know.

Anonymous said...

tbm,Joseph Smith was the first to propound the "made from other Earths" doctrine, Im not sure, but I think its in The lectures on faith, or Teaching of the prophet Joseph Smith.

just a bit of trivia.

Anonymous said...


You couldn't have stated my opinion on the subject better.

Remember that Genesis is the story of the creation given by Moses to a bunch of back sliding Jewish slaves. IMO it was as dumbed down a version of the creation as they could handle. Like a children's book that you'd read to your child. Keep in mind that right after Genesis he spells out how many feet out of camp you have to be to use the bathroom.

It doesn't hurt my faith in God that he took a billion years to create an earth. It is a very reassuring feeling having a religion that owns all truth.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

ATAR_i said...

To poster above who likes to slime and leave - I honestly don't take it personally. It is a statement about your personal state of being - not mine.

As an immature child, I remember throwing some debris at a car, while I sat in the woods - not my proudest moment, but I was young, stupid and immature. When the car stopped I ran.

It rather reminds me of your posts - a slime and run, you are probably young, and if you are not, then you have my pity.

ATAR_i said...

I wish I knew wether it was a literal 7 days, or wether it wasn't.

Does it matter as long as I know who created it?

I know that God created it. I know that God created humans AS humans.

bbgae said...

Atar and tbm-
Your posts were both very enjoyable to read. Excellent as ever. :)

Anons 12:47 & 12:48 & 12:53-
Everyone has the right to an opinion here. Including you and atar. It does not bode well for you to call names simply because others do not agree with you. I have seen the Admin. DELETE posts with profanity in them. So.... if you want to risk your posts and words being deleted, by all means, continue cursing us as*****s....You only disable own ability to express yourself.

4/17 @10:34-
It doesn't MATTER WHAT is causing global warming- carbon emissions, sun flares, or natural temperature cycle. It doesn't change the fact that the Earth is getting warmer and if nothing stops it, catastrophic things WILL happen. Now, maybe something catastrophic will happen regardless, and maybe it will not happen for a long time, but not to try and AT LEAST slow it down -imho- is as stupid as standing in the middle of the road watching a semi-truck bearing down on us at full speed and denying it's existence.

Proving the cause in the earth's rise in temperature is generated from something other than what someone else says it is, DOES NOT ERASE THE PROBLEM! So then, you have to ask yourself, 'Am I going to ignore the problem, or do something about it?' As a race, I really hope we are not so childish as to seek our own gain for the short term KNOWING full well the whole time that it jeopardizes our future, and simply refusing to acknowledge it.

Anonymous said...

the word "EVOLUTION" came about from a GODLESS society.

Because certain people will not acknowledge that there is a GOD WHO CREATED ALL THINGS!!

bbgae said...

So....it's the WORD evolution that you have a problem with. Oh. I understand, now. Thank you. :)

ATAR_i said...

When I posted on the aimoo blog about this very topic - I was virtually skinned alive and called all manner of names.

A very unpleasant experience.

They kept calling me an uneducated plig, they were foul and cruel, insisting that because I believed in God - I was a brainwashed idiot.

I'm not uneducated, nor have I ever even been aware that polygamy was being practiced in the US until a couple years ago.

But - some people assume all manner of evil about you, if you do not agree.

Which, is one of the reasons why I refuse to disrespect someone for having a differing opinion, or assume things about them of which I can have no personal understanding.

ANY person, wether they believe in God, or they believe there is no god can do this to you. Try to make you feel insignificant, idiotic, stupid, small, pathetic, and brainwashed for your feelings or your beliefs.

THAT sort of tactic is NOT manifest in the soul of person who truly understands the vastness of a reality, which no human can begin to understand.

It belongs to someone who has made the earth, the galaxy, and all things so small they believe they fit in a nice little package that not only is nicely wrapped - but they themselves possess complete and sole understanding of.

The secrets of the universe are more amazing than any human can even wrap their arms, brains, and all intellect around - it's just to big.

Why a certain personality type is intent on making the universe something so small they can understand the whole of it - I'll never know.

the_lerker said...

Am I wrong in assuming the Book of Genesis was written by the Geico Caveman?

ATAR_i said...

He's not even a real caveman!

: )

muggsey said...

annon. 10:25

Oops! I was reading along, agreeing with some of what you were saying. That which I would challenge would be of so little importance that it's not worth the effort.

However, (you expected that didn't you?)

Moses gave the story of creation to a bunch of back sliding Jewish slaves????? According to your report only Hebrews who were of the lineage of Judah would have ever heard the creation story.

Moses was of the tribe of Levi, why wouldn't he tell Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Dan, Naphtali, Asher, Manasseh, Zebulon, Issachar, Gad, Benjamin & Epriaim the story too? After all they were the desendents of Jacob (named Israel), Isaac and Abraham.

All Jews are of the tribe of Judah, the tribe of David, Solomon, Daniel, and Jesus.

The books of Joshua and Judges tell about the conquest and division of "The Land of Milk and Honey" among the tribes of Israel. Moses gave a blessing to each of the tribes, as is detailed in Deuteronomy 33.

The first chapter of Judges gives an accounting of just how the various tribes failed to fulfill their obligation to trust in God's assistance in ridding their tribal lands of it's ungodly inhabitants. Of special interest is Judges 1:21. Jersalem was to have been in the area of land to be inhabited by the tribe of Benjamin but, remained in the hands of the Jebusites until David conquered that city when he first became King of Israel. David, being King, and having completed the task that Benjamin could or would not claimed Zion for Judah.

Incidently, Joshua was from the tribe of Ephraim, Caleb was of Judah. These two were of the twelve spies who had gone in to the land of Cannan to spy it out. Only they brought back a favorable report and were the only two from the originals of the Exodus from Egypt who lived to enter the Promised Land. Why? Because they recognized that Israel's deliverance was from the hand of God and not man's.

Othniel, the first Judge was from Judah also. Ehud, the second judge was a Benjaminite, Sampson was of the tribe of Dan.

A presumption that the term Jews included all the tribes of Israel is in error. The only Jews were of Judah.

muggsey said...


Personally I believe that for man to think that he, in and of himself can isolate one small nation on the North American Continent and that small nation can in and of itself reverse or effect climate change or anything else is a case of hyperego run amock. More pollutants are dumped into the atmosphere by volcanic erruptions in one year than all those things supposedly dumped by citizens of the U.S. alone. The Mt. St. Helen's erruption alone surpassed all worldwide hydrocarbon emmissions for a period exceeding ten years. The African continent's spiriling population and continual use of folage as fuel is far more damaging than is exhaust from all the world's motor vehicles.

I believe that an erruption of the volcanic power in Yellowstone Park alone would come nearer sending earth into another ice age than the emissions of U.S. automobile traffic for a thousand years. Do we need to find another source of expendable power? Yes, but because the earth's reserves are runing low, not in fear of some global warming threat.

Global Warming, or Gore's Folly is a political sop to the uninformed and fearful. The hole in the ozone continually changes in size. It is not sensible to say that a natural occurance, other than that instituted by God himself can affect climate change or cause another ice age or costal flooding. Houston is sinking now. Why? Because so much of the ground water has been tapped that as it is drawn from the earth for domestic and agricultural use the top soil reacts to the fact that ground water no longer supports the surface soil. What will reverse this? A shift in population, prevention of run-off water from leaving the area to flow into the Gulf of Mexico. The Trinity, Brazos and Colorado Rivers in Texas have large aquifers adjacent to these. Conservation of this water and hope for unusually heavy rainfall can revese Houston's problem. Only then, Gore's crop of idiots will scream about building foundations cracking because of the upheaval of the water table. When a politician has nothing for which he stands, he/she can lead a nation into a series of idiotic decisions that do much more harm than good.

bbgae said...

Wow! That was interesting. Thank you for the insight.

I really hope you weren't refering to me in your 1:39 post. I like to think I can handle it when people disagree with me. If I have ever attacked or offended you or anyone for disagreeing with me, then I appologize. :)

Speaking of handling it- I've been thinking a lot lately about being 'steady' when things in life change. Several members of my family have or have had the expierence of taking care of themselves and I couldn't help but wonder because of recent events with them and with me, 'What if I was left alone to fend for myself and my children?' (Please, God, don't let me ever find myself in that situation!) But, I couldn't help but wonder- would I be steady and do what it takes to make things work? Or, would I bounce around from one thing to the next like so many others have done?
I like to think I am steady, but I had to ask my sister what she thought. (I needed reassurance.) I asked her to be brutally honest with me so if I needed to fix something, I would know and I could fix it. She told me, "You HAVE to be in controll of the universe, and if it doesn't do what you want, you stand there and scream at it until you are blue in the face. Then, you either get it to do things your way, or you go around it and find another way to get what you want."
I find this a very sweet, very true, and very funny statement. (Thanx, Sis.) I especailly like the visual of me yelling at the universe until I am blue in the face. LOL. Anyway, I thought I would tell you, Atar, beacuse I was hoping to make you laugh. I don't put the universe in a neat little package- I yell at it! :D

ATAR_i said...

TODAY someone is considered 'Jewish' who is the physical descendent of Jacob - regardless of which of the original twelve tribes they descend from.

The original name for the PEOPLE we now refer to as Jews was Hebrews.

I'm not certain if your comments were sarcastic mugs - I sure hope they were, and that you don't ascribe to a meaning of the word 'Jewish' which is only accurate on one level, but completely false in it's true meaning.

bbgae said...

We must have been posting at the same time, because I didn't see your last post until after mine was published.

That last was an excellent post. You gave many valid points. I don't agree with you on all of them, but I appreciate your insight.

Let's do what we can to stop carbon emmisions. Not because of Gore, but because it CAN help- even if only a little bit. And, let's find a new, clean energy source. If there really is another ice age comming, we are going to need it. :)

Maybe another ice age will be the result, regardless?

ATAR_i said...

No mugs - I wasn't referring to you in that post.

I'll have to disagree with you about warming though. While I find Gore is histrionic, I DO believe there are responsible things we need to do as citizens of this earth.

We can do things differently, and make our lives cleaner and healthier. The switch from Coal to Electricity was a start - now we need to go even further.

I recommend 'who killed the electric car?'. Seriously - watch it, and at the end - you'll just scratch your head. I did.

ATAR_i said...

Lord have mercy - now we need a chat room - we are all three on at the same time!

bbgae said...


bbgae said...

So, Atar.... wil you forgive me?

Anonymous said...

Muggs, that is actually a very sane post, and a very valid point you make! However, I do think that us homsapiens that inhabit this third rock from the sun should do our best to keep things as clean as possible! So if there is any good that can come from watching our emissions, then we should do so! If for no other reason than to make a healthier place for our children to live! I am wondering what is causing all the bees to die? Has anyone heard about that? I dont think it is global warming, either! It's kind of a scary thought. Albert Einstein said that if the world were to lose its bee population, us humans would only have about 4 years to live. It makes ya wonder whats happening!

Just my 2 cents worth.

ATAR_i said...

for what dear?

bbgae said...

I thought I might have offended you because I said, I hope you were not referring to me in your post, and you told Muggsey you weren't referring to him. I thought it was just a mistake because of the confusion of all of us trying to talk at once, but I was just checking. :) I'm glad we're ok.

Can you tell us the cause and effect behind Einstein's bee/human theory? I have not heard of it before.

ATAR_i said...

oops - ack - apparently I read too fast.

I haven't been offended once on this thread. I don't care for the anal orfice poster however.

Anonymous said...

Say what you want about Mt. St. Helens, but look at the charts of temperature. In the 1800's there was Krakatoa, and you do see a huge spike in the temperature record, but earth recovered quickly. The last ten years, we are larger than the spike from Krakatoa, and we haven't recovered.

I believe global warming is real, but I don't like the way Al Gore never mentioned nuclear power (an inconvenient truth for Al Gore--nuclear power doesn't emit greenhouse gases). We can't go backwards as a society to windmills, waterwheels, horses, etc. We must go forward as a society. I think we need to be careful not to let politicians control our energy or we will have corruption and scams worse than Enron, but as a society, we do need to admit the problem and find a solution. Nuclear fusion? Or let King Al control us.

Furnace (who can't figure out how to make google work, so just use anonymous)

ATAR_i said...

furnace - did you watch the movie 'who killed the electric car?'

quinton said...

Hi, I have been reading your blogs for awhile and feel like I know everyone but I guess I should introduce myself.
I agree that it is arrogant of the U.S to believe that they are going to turn around global warming. Also, by the time that we started changing our evil ways it is or would be too late. However it does appear to me that something is drastically changing with at least my local weather here in Nebraska. Perhaps we are living in the last days? I would not be surprised if something big is getting ready to happen. Although from what I have always heard people have been saying that since the dawn of mankind.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

Chemtrails? Chemtrails killing the bees. (just a thought)

Might be a better theory than cellphone interference.

Anonymous said...

On global warming and pollution.

Some 15 years ago, I found myself somewhat alone helping to raise siblings without their father.

i went to God in prayer and asked what he future would be that i should be prepared for it.

i was given three visions, one night after another, the first showing me what would happen to my siblings.

In the second i was shown that all the water on the earth would become like pea soup, and the air to a lesser extent.

In the third I was taken to a coastal hill, and looking out over the coast i was shown the waves crashing violently over the sea shores, and in the sky the words were written, IT WOULD BE ADVANTAGEOUS TO MOVE TO HIGHER REGIONS.

I lived and ran good businesses on the coast, grew up at the beach practically, now am 100 kms inland, at 600 feet, built self sustaining organic farm.

i would suggest anyone earnest does likewise NOW.

It takes 5-10 years to build a self sustaining property and learn how to survive.

As China and India increasiongly follow the example of western countries, pollution worldwide will increase exponentially.

If we have dramatic climatatic change, our local oil/fuel terminals will be lost, (they are all at sea level) All food is grown useing fossil fuel tractors, trucked to markest and shops, and then we go in our cars to buy the stuff. The army will be emplyed to run fuel, and it will become hard to get, along with food, so grow your own and learn how now if you want to feed your families.

We are become a disconected and arrogant ignorant people, and in another dream I was shown that we would have to use Bull dozers to bury the dead.

Good luck arguing over who Jesus was and if hes going to save you.

Bro B

ATAR_i said...

OK bro B - you're kinda scarring me. It sounds as if you've been through a few traumatic things. I think you might benefit from telling someone else the things you're telling us.

ATAR_i said...

anon - stop posting about anal orifices - human or equine - and you're posts might stick around longer.

Most everyone saw them before they were taken down anyhow - so don't go getting your knickers in a wad.

Anonymous said...

knickers visual - good... but just for the record, I'm fonder of the classic "knickers in a knot." ;-D

muggsey said...


Your 'visions' seem to reflect many of the same thing John penned in the "Revelation of Jesus Christ."

I believe you would find a more sympathetic and believing ear if you revealed the content of your 'visions' to a psychiatrist.

I believe that Jesus Christ will return to earth, but, His return won't be in a vision but in fact. When that event comes about it'll be too late to warn anyone, straighten yourself up or even attempt to get the equity out of your house!

muggsey said...


The nation Israel came from the calling, by God, Jacob, son of Isaac, Son of Abraham to be the father of the new nation promised to Abraham that his seed was to bring forth the promised one, see Genesis 22:18.

Jacob had twelve sons. Six were born of Leah, his first wife, two were born to Rachel his second, and favorite wife and two were born to each of the wive's hand maids, given to Jacob as concubines.

Rachel's eldest son Joseph was Jacob (Israel's) favorite and became a source of controversey among his brothers. His brothers sold him into slavery. He wound up in Egypt and because of his abilities was named second in command to Pharaoh.

Joseph and his brethern were rejoined and reconciled to one another by Joseph's forgivness. Because of famine in Cannan, Joseph asked the his father Jacob (Israel) be brought to Egypt, along with all the families of each of the sons. They grew from about sixty persons to about 2 million in the 400 years that the family became a nation, in captivity because of the change in the dynasty of Egyptian rule.

There is no tribe of Joseph. Instead, Jacob gave instructions that Joseph's two sons be considered as His full sons and brothers by Joseph's family. Ephriam and Mannassah were both of Joseph.

Moses rose up and through the miracles of God led Israel from Egyptian captivity into the Sinai wilderness, where because of their rebelliousness Israel (the nation) roamed for forty years.

Once they were led into Cannan they were given instructions to destroy the inhabitants and take posession of the land. The books of Joshua, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel & 1 & 2 Kings give record to Israel's effort to accomplish this goal, or the lack therof.

Saul, a Benjaminite was named the first King of Israel. Because of his un-godly behavior he and his family were deposed and David, a descendant of Judah was named King, and given the promise that the reign of his family would never end. David planned, Solomon built and Rehobom destroyed the harmony among the tribes.

Jerobom led the ten northern tribes, including the two half tribes of Joseph's descendents (Ephriam and Manassah) plus all the sons of Jacob except Judah, Benjamin and Levi (who had been named as the priests, and owned no claim to the land.)

The northern tribes took the name Israel whose people were eventually taken into captivity by Assyria and dispirsed never again to have an identity as a nation.

The tribe of Judah, being the tribe of the King took the name 'Judah'. They too were led into captivity by Babylon that was eventually defeated by Cyrus the Meade. He unified Media and Persia. Persia, being te stronger of the two eventually became dominant. Cyrus, upon assuming the throne relased all personages who were in captivity. (Judah had been in captivity for 70 yrs.)

Under Ezra, Jerrubaal and finally Nehemiah, the walls were rebuilt and the temple reconstructed. I cannot find any record that these people were called anything but Jews following the Babylonian captivity.

It is possible that individuals, who of their own accord eventually returned to Jerusalem from other tribes, those dispersed by Assyria, assumed the title Jew to simpify recognition.

I'll bet I have just related facts that you know as well as do I. I appologize if that's true. However, I suspect that some that come onto the blog have no knowledge of just how the name 'Jew' came about. This lesson is offered in their behalf

muggsey said...

bro B

I don't need to argue over who Jesus was! I know, at least for my own sake that He is My King of Kings & Lord of Lords, that he redeemed my sin by shedding his own precious blood as the price of the eternal redemption of my soul. I believed that he saved me and I am convinced that He has kept and is keeping me until that day when I shall join Him at His throne.

Anonymous said...

muggs, i didnt think anyone on here requested a lesson but thanks. you seem to be very opinionated so whats your take on the world? is it only 7000 years old?

on a different note, whats up with this?

SALT LAKE CITY — Utah’s leading news organizations, including The Associated Press, and professional groups asked a judge Wednesday to unseal court papers in the case of polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs, who faces charges of rape by accomplice.

Lawyers for the news media want 5th District Judge James L. Shumate in St. George to unseal a petition filed April 5 and an order the judge signed the same day. They also asked to be notified before any other court papers are sealed so that they may be given a chance to fight it.

“I am advised these documents may deal with substantive pretrial matters, such as the defendant’s competency to stand trial,” media lawyer David C. Reymann wrote to Shumate on Wednesday.

Read the article :


bbgae said...

Bro. B.
I lived many years of my life in the CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE that the destructions were coming and I needed to prepare for them physically and spiritually, or die.

Now that I am free of paranoia and controlling leaders, it is so NICE to simply LIVE.

It feels good. You should try it.

bbgae said...

Hi! :) Welcome aboard.

Have you seen 'An inconvenient Truth'? Most of the earths' nations are and have already been using energy saving and 'green' technology to cut down their emissions and further their growth.

U.S and Australia are the only ones who aren't. Even China- who almost reaches the same level of emissions as the U.S.- HAS CUT BACK.

These nations are ALL years ahead of us in their 'green' technology. WE are the ones who are digging in our heels and -pardon the expression- sh**ing on the rest of the world.

If I were them, I'd be angry with us.

Anonymous said...

BS pure BS. No other nation has higher emissions control standards than the US. That's why so many companies are moving overseas. Do a little research for yourself and quit believing every convenient lie politicians like Gore spew forth in order to curry favor with the loony left. Come on BBGAE, you seem semi-intelligent. Think. Just think.

bbgae said...

Anon. 1:01-

No other nation has higher emission control standards than the US.

Ok. Then explain to me why the people in Brazil and Colombia have cars that run on sugar cane while we still run around in our gasoline automobiles. And... I haven't seen ONE sign at the gas station, or anywhere that reads: Using fossil fuels is detrimental to the environment, please use sparingly. Or: gasoline powered automobiles prohibited in -- area.
Why don't we have more neucular power plants?

..quit believing every convenient lie politicians like Gore spew forth in order to curry favor with the loony left.

I don't see Gore up for election anytime soon. Why would he need to curry favor if he wasn't up for election?

You seem semi intelligent....

:D Why, thank you!

Anonymous said...

Are you saying that nuclear power is not detrimental to the environment? I'm sure the folks near Three Mile Island would beg to differ. So would those still paying the price for Chernobyl. Then there's the whole issue of dealing with spent fuel. Come on, think. You can do better than that.

As for the cars in Brazil and Colombia that run on sugar cane, was it not detrimental to the environment to clear and burn the rain forest for the sugar cane fields. Think. Those sugar cane fields only last five or six years before the shallow topsoil is depleted then the farmers have to clear more forest land.

I'm not saying fossil fuels are the answer. But neither do I buy into the conspiracy theories that the big oil companies are blocking emerging technologies. Remember these companies are publicly traded coroporations that could just as easily make their money selling fuel cells.

Now there's a technology I can get excited about.

I mean no disrespect. I truly don't. But you're far to bright to be deluded by pitch men like Gore. Don't think for a minute he's not still interested in high office. While on that topic, look into his voting record as a senator. Look into his support for big tobacco companies. If the left side of the political spectrum is more pleasing to you, there are many better choices than Gore. Kerry is marginally better than Gore. Obama is certainly better than Gore. So is Edwards. Even Ted Kennedy is more intellectually honest than Gore.

I say this as a person who finds more comfort on the right side of the political spectrum. No one man, no one party, no one point of view holds all the answers. It's the melding of ideas and the free exchange of the same that will move this country forward. Not the tired old axioms that modern man (and woman), especially as they exist in North Ameria, are the greatest dangers to this planet.

You friend,

bbgae said...

:D Thank you! That was very well put.

I had not considered the rain forest needed to be cleared for the sugar cane. It's the renewable plant energy source that gets me all excited. But, you're right. It shouldn't come as another cost to the environment through desolating the rain forests. However, the problem there is the need for a new growing approach, not the sugar cane energy source it's self. That is the same for the nuclear power plants, too. It is a good, clean energy source. We just need to develop it until it is safe.

I am not as gullible and naive as you see me. I do not trust politicians. I have never voted, because I think they are all full of crap. But, we do have to have a government of some kind. I hope Obama, or- dare I say it- Hilary, win the election.

I do not think modern men and women are the greatest threat to the planet. You go to an extreme on that one. I just think we are on the brink of change. We need to change for the better. To not change would be an insult to the intelligence of the human race.

Anonymous said...

I couldnt have shared my visons with you any more clearly.

But they meant nothing at all to you people, absolutley nothing.

If you tell people straight up clear as day what you get, they think your a nutter, and if you say nothing you help no one prepare.

I guess it will be the meek and humble that seek to prepare themselves by Gods leading spirit.

bro B

ATAR_i said...

Tr - well put.

Unless I saw documentation I couldn't say for certain which country is putting out the most carbons. I'm certain coal burning would jack up that sort of total - which would lead some developing nations who do much of the industrial work for large businesses overseas high on the list.

So, it's got to be a worldwide issue. Alternative fuel sources that aren't harmful to the environment MUST be made available - decreasing the need for fossil fuel. We'll be paying more for items, because developing nations will need to change their fuel in order to operate 'cleaner'.

It means a big change for EVERYONE. People who would stand in the way of that change - take a number.

The PEOPLE will have to insist - NO POLITICIAN can take this on alone - the companies are too big - it must be A CRY SO LOUD, on a global level, that any politician not heeding the cry would serve one term.

Currently - our lifetime politicians cater to the big business that ensures their tenure in office - the people need to change that.

MUGS - yes, I know all that. What I'm saying is that being A JEW now, is synonymous with what being a HEBREW was back then.

So, when you say 'only the tribe of Judah are Jews' - it's misleading. As today - all the tribes ARE considered JEWS - even though back then it was just a slang for the Hebrews (tribe of Judah) living in that area.


ATAR_i said...

Tr - well put.

Unless I saw documentation I couldn't say for certain which country is putting out the most carbons. I'm certain coal burning would jack up that sort of total - which would lead some developing nations who do much of the industrial work for large businesses overseas high on the list.

So, it's got to be a worldwide issue. Alternative fuel sources that aren't harmful to the environment MUST be made available - decreasing the need for fossil fuel. We'll be paying more for items, because developing nations will need to change their fuel in order to operate 'cleaner'.

It means a big change for EVERYONE. People who would stand in the way of that change - take a number.

The PEOPLE will have to insist - NO POLITICIAN can take this on alone - the companies are too big - it must be A CRY SO LOUD, on a global level, that any politician not heeding the cry would serve one term.

Currently - our lifetime politicians cater to the big business that ensures their tenure in office - the people need to change that.

MUGS - yes, I know all that. What I'm saying is that being A JEW now, is synonymous with what being a HEBREW was back then.

So, when you say 'only the tribe of Judah are Jews' - it's misleading. As today - all the tribes ARE considered JEWS - even though back then it was just a slang for the Hebrews (tribe of Judah) living in that area.


Anonymous said...

ATAR_i said...

Currently - our lifetime politicians cater to the big business that ensures their tenure in office - the people need to change that.

Start with Orrin Hatch - let's get his butt out of office!

Anonymous said...

on the topic of global warming???


...makes ya kinda wonder.

keep sweet eldorado

Anonymous said...

Every year we have to get a new flu vaccine becasue last years vaccine won't work any more. The xxxxcillin antibiotic developed just 10 years ago doesn't have the efficacy it started with. These little bastards are changing right before our microscopes! Evolution or natural selection process? I think our great-great-great-great-great-great-to-the-nth-power grandkids will still be arguing over this because we only get to observe 60-90 years, then we move on.

As intelligent as we are supposed to be, do we really learn from our predecessors? So many of us repeat the same mistakes...

Bro B: your story sounds like the "I was abducted by aliens" story. No matter how real you think it is, nobody is going to believe that sh_t, I mean vision.


feralfem said...

UH OH! Vaccines! Now there's a subject that gets me pretty riled up. (Actually my uber-strong feelings applies to the entire allopathic medical industry in general but particularly to the evil... yes, that's how *I* feel ... pharmaceutical lobby/giants!)

Injecting toxic poisons into the body (i.e., mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum, phenoxyethanol [antifreeze], carbolic acid, alum, acetone [fingernail polish remover]), and other foreign proteins (i.e., chick embryo, calf serum, rabbit brain tissue, monkey kidney cells) is nothing short of criminal. IMO, vaccines are a deadly scam the public has been brainwashed into going along with.

But... rather than go into a personal rant here, take some time to read why vaccines are ineffective and dangerous - that is if you're interested in your own and/or your children's good health.

In fact do a Google search on 'vaccination danger' and be amazed at what you find.

Sorry... I could go on and on. I don't mean to hijack this thread. Actually, though, this IS related to the subject of evolution - although, in my opinion, we and our earth are de-volving rather than e-volving. Gah!!

Anyway, it's all LTG's fault. He started it!
;-D (winky smiley)


TBM said...

4/19 1.01: "BS pure BS. No other nation has higher emissions control standards than the US"

That's the BS. Try a little research of your own -- google "US emissions". The following is a sample just from the first page of results:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article358583.ece "The United States emitted more greenhouse gases in 2004 than at any time in history"

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2006/2006-04-18-02.asp "This was the largest annual amount [of carbon emissions] ever produced by any country on record"

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/us_emissions_reach_record_18042006.html "The United States contribution to climate change has reached record levels"

http://www.enn.com/today.html?id=12578 "The United States is the biggest source of greenhouse gas emissions, followed by China"

bbgae said...

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on that one. It sounds too much like the crap they fed us, "the government doesn't like us because we are God's people and they are trying to kill us off by slipping AIDS into the vaccines and then requiring us to get them." Conspiracy theories.

I agree with you that businesses should not require their workers to get a flu shot every year in order to qualify for sick-leave. I am just fine without it, thank you very much.

I did check out your search.

However, you are ignoring the state of disease the world was in before the vaccines. There has been a little good come of them. No more epidemics. :)

But, I can tell that you feel very strongly about this one, so I will say no more in the subject.

muggsey said...


I doubt that you are old enough to remember when polio vaccine was not available. I was a grown man before it was made available to the public. I vividly remember the effects of polio and the fright that held fast to every community during the summer months. Not understanding the concept of virus, or really germs, as such, the way of life has sustained marked improvement since the first penicillin came on the market, for common use in the early 1940's.

Measles, Mumps, Hooping cough, head lice, menengitis, all types of disease filtered through our towns and cities causing thousands to miss work and hundreds to die.

Typhoid, Dyptheria, tetnus, various of pests and the infections they carried were a common concern. Lack of sanitary facilities and systems to bring pure water to your kitchen were unknown. Animals were housed in town, and trash was often burned in the back yard. Milk cows, chickens and pigs might be held in back lots not a block from city hall or the county courthouse.

If you lived in the country, and didn't have transportation, and you stepped upon something that had a nail protruding from it, you soaked your foot in kerosene in an effort to prevent infection. This was not always successful. If it was 20 miles to the nearest doctor and you did'nt have transportation your folks 'doctored' you to the best of their understanding, and or your brother or sister, father or mother might have to walk a couple of miles, in all kinds of weather, without sidewalks, bridges over streams or any emergency services near, just to use yor neighbor's telephone, if they had one, or borrow a horse to go to the doctor and get his to return home with you to treat the injured person.

Were your children delivered by a midwife? Hundreds of thousands were, and in far from sanitary facilities and aided by individuals who didn't even know enough to wash their hands.

I remember trucks driving around town just at dusk spraying DDT to help control flies, known carriers of the polio virus.

I know this these things are in the far past to most of you but happened just yesterday in the memories of those of us who were fortunate enough to have lived through that time. The time I'm talkig about is less than 65 years ago. Your parents or grandparents may be that age and can confirm what I say here.

It wasn't until Walter Reed discovered a serium that yellow fever and malaria were brought under control. And those events occurred during the early part of the last century. Penicillin was discovered by Fleming in the '20's but did not come into common use until the late 40's. Doctors, not understanding that resistance to drugs can result in serious side effects, prescribed penecillin for nearly every known, or suspected infection. Many of us developed an allergy to the drug from having had it prescribed too often.

I cringe every time I have to pay my co-pay for prescription drugs. I am fortunate enough to have a pretty good insurance policy but still, last year the co-pay by itself amounted to over $4,100.00. One prescription I take costs over $17.00 per pill. I'm sure glad it's available. Would I like the price to drop, of course. Would I rather suffer the symptoms of my problem? No, I'd rather pay.

Are you aware that often drug companies put a new drug on test cycle that may continue for ten or more years. In Europe similar drugs receive approval in about half that time. We blame business, pharmacutal companies, oil companies, grocery suppliers for the outrageous prices.
These prices, in part, were effected by the following events.

After the scare concerning Tylanol several years ago, drug companies started having to pack their otc drugs in tamper proof packages to avoid the risk of having some nut-case substitute a poisoned substance for a valid drug. Yes it saved lives but, the packaging sent the cost spiriling upward. Meat used to be sold from a meat counter, weighed AFTER the consumer had the opportunity to see the meat from every side. Now, to preserve shelf life meat is packaged and sits on the shelf until the date of expiration, then it is removed and destroyed. The meat may be perfectly safe to prepare and eat but, we are so frightened of our shadow, unable to make rational decisions whether it be purchasing food, drugs or voting in elections that we get just what we want, whether it's in our best interest or not. Alittle known or thought of fact concerning the price of petroleum is the fact that oil, as such, not only fuels our automobiles but provides the feedstock for the plastics industry, in essential in the development of many drugs, fabrics, automobile parts, furniture, paving materials, pesticides and on and on and on. Price and demand are interlocked. Government control of the development of new power plants, refineries, drilling known oil reserves on the North American Continent, adjacent to the U.S.A. could provide all our petroleum needs for a limited time. Without the ability to access these reserves we are at the mercy of high prices on not just gasoline but upon every consumable product. Add to that problem Govermental controls without sane reason and you develop a society that is non supporting.

Another case in point. I am very, very sorry for the injury, both bodily, spiritually and mentally that was caused this week by the young man at Va. Tech. However, as I watch the newscasts??? I can't help but wonder if the reports aren't sparking interest in a similar action by another unbalanced individual. The broadcasts seem to be much like an instruction video on how to perform a similar crime. Why do we feed and feed upon the gory details of such a horendous crime. What could have been done to prevent such an event?

I don't know of anything. Every entry way into every school, office, college building, shopping mall, church building could be equipped with metal detectors and surrounded with armed guards and somehow those who plan to participate these things find a way to get the job done.

Would gun control stop such events? No, but maybe three or four armed individuals roaming the halls of each of these places with orders to shoot would probably slow the incidence down.

In those areas of the country where concealed weapon licenses are issued such actions become rare. Should everyone carry a firearm? Absolutely not! Maturity and the ability to acknowledge real danger should limit those who are allowed to perform such service.

Our children see the same actors in movies & on TV killing or being killed over and over on an almost daily basis. Today's victim on one show will be the killer on another show tomorrow. Acknowledgement of reality or teaching that such events are immoral and harmful to life shoukld be a never ending lesson to our children. Children who 'dine' daily on these events become immune to the permanence of injuries and death. According to these productions all life's problems are stated and solved within one to three hours. Is that time frame an even believable? This hypothesis is absurd. Folks killed by gangs, lone killers and viligilante groups don't get up and are not able to go back to the sound-stage and play another part tomorrow. They are dead. Their lives, at least on this earth are completed. Their families are incomplete because of the acts of individuals who really should be considered candidates for the death penalty. Serial murderers may be at large for years before being apprehended, if ever.

We, as a people don't just run, we sprint in an attempt to quickly place blame on someone not even remotely connected to the event, and without even the most elementry evidence having been found and secured.

Now brother, this is preaching, not teaching!


Got your message. I seriously dout that if an individual told someone that he was of the tribe of Mannasseh or Issachar that the average citizen of the world would even begin to comprehend the connection. I do hope the lesson will do someone some good. Never intend to be vicious but, don't turn tail and run too quickly! That probably is one of my greatest faults.



Anonymous said...

And while you are at it read about the Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (Prozac)

muggsey said...

It is absurd to think that regulations concerning the use of Coal, heating oil, gasoline and even wood fires haven't come about in the last thirty-five years.

Doesn't anyone remember the shutting down of steel plants in Bethlehem, and Pittsburgh? Did any one ever hear about catylatic converters, fuel injection, down-sizing of autos and electronic engine controls? How many of you ever visited a city near a coal powered industrial plant prior to current emmisssion regulation?. Did you ever see the soot that adheres to the sides of the buildings. I remember when you couldn't see the sun on some days because the smoke was so dense. Do any of you in Southern California remember the 'smog?' that wasn't very long ago. How much polution comes from forest and grass fires? Why are they more prominent on the Pacific coast than elsewhere? Did anyone ever think about vegetative undergrowth that, because of our green party's tree hugging influence in the halls of congress, serves as a natural kindling enabling the start of massive forest fires?


I can't help myself....how is electricity produced? Hydrocarbon powered plants, hydroelectric power, Nuclear power. None of these meet absolute environmental standards. Hydrocarbons (coal, fuel oil) is the biggest culprit followed closly by Nuclear.(in the eye of the Goreites) Hydroelectric power is generated by running water that must be kept behind a dam to guarantee both the abundance and force of the water to turn the turbines which turn the generators the produce electricity. Dams distrub fish sponing, soak forests and disturb the habitat of some varmits. Wind power is OK, unless you fly your kite into one of the mosters, as is solar power, if they can be supplied in great enough quantity for American consumption. How many thousands of forested land would need to be cleared to allow for the building of the panels for collection of heat from the sun?

Forbid it, maybe one answer is public transportation. At one time we had a railroad system greater than any on earth. Monorails seem to work pretty well in Japan. Where there is water, hydrofoils can transport a lot of people. Why can't tracks be built above our current interstate system to allow for the passage of high-speed passenger transportation. The problem then would be transport from the main line to wherever the passenger needs to go. I suspect Gore would suggest that we sub-human underlings could walk.

All of these really sound good but, what is to furnish the power to operate them? Our nation is so addicted to the automobile that only a crisis will direct the average citizen's idea toward transportation in a different direction. During WWII, gasoline was rationed. Mass transit flourished, auto travel became more rare. Those of us who lived in rural areas were penalized. People on the streets of major cities could walk out to door and go shoping every day. Most rural people shop once or twice a month. It not only takes gasoline to go shioping but eats up valuable time.

Here, outside YFZ, it is not unusual for people to spend a whold day, or two, if they have an extended shopping list, just in travel. The closest city, San Angelo, Pop. 100,000 is 45 miles away. Dallas is 350 mi. El Paso is 400 mi., Texarkana is 700 mi., Houston 425 mi., Dalhart 400 mi., Brownsville 500 mi. All these destinations are all within the state

For years I drove autos that averaged about 15 mpg. Gasoline ranged from 25 cents to 32 cents/gal., dependent where you were. With the crunch of the 70's came vehicles that lacked power but were economical. I had one that I could depend upon 33 mpg regularly but, to ride in that thing for ten hours guaranteed a back-ache lasting a week.

What's the answer? I have no idea, I'm not an engineer, I don't know the practicality of some modes of power.
Fuel cells sound pretty good as does compressed natural gas. But, if a vehicle powered by natural gas or hydrogen was involved in a serious collision involving puncture of the fuel tank the destruction would be much greater than just the crash of the two vehicles. Autos powered by both gasoline and electricity from storage batteries seem like a pretty good short term solution, that is until the driver has to replace the batteries! So what's the answer. If electricity is the best choice how do we produce it and then transport it?

ATAR_i said...


I'm watching it now - OMG - I might just have to revamp my thinking again!!!

Check out STG's link


Anonymous said...

ugg muggy! I just look and your name and skip over it. Drone on brother, drone on!

TBM said...

Feralfem, did you stop to question why these articles are being published on the internet, and not in the American Journal of Medicine?

Compared to a doctor, my medical knowledge is very limited, but I spotted a couple of rather glaring logical flaws as I skimmed over it. For example, the article entitled "The Beneficial Nature of Smallpox" -- it's only going to be beneficial if it doesn't kill you first! Which it will do in most cases!

fttc said...

That was a great link STG!
I started to skim through but had to watch the whole thing. It makes so much more sense than the global warming crowd. I too would recommend everyone watching it.

bbgae said...

I read every word of your 5:32 post and I agreed with all of it except for the part where you blamed violent shootings like at the Virginia Tech, on computer games and tv.

Thank you for the link!!! I watched the whole thing. It's nice to see both sides of something.

Did anyone else notice BOTH Gore and the people in Stg's film used the SAME chart of the earth's temperature as proof?
I'm going to look up some charts and find out who is omitting pieces of the charts (tampering with evidence).
Also, it seems odd to me that the ocean would release CO2. When the ocean warms, doesn't it turn the water into pure vapor while the minerals are left making the ocean salty? I think I'm going to look up the chemical process....
AND...the thing about Africa really pisses me off. I want everyone to have the same human comforts I enjoy from electricity- however, isn't it THEIR coal and THEIR oil making it THEIR choice what to do with it?
You all know I love a good cause, but I feel just a little taken in on this one- like they used the poor African's to play on my sympathies for their propaganda. When did cutting down the energy used by OUR big businesses turn into denying the poor what they need?

fttc said...


The answer to the question on the charts is really quite simple. Gore DID use the same data for both graphs. He just shifted one or the other several hundred years so they would match as closely as they did. I have heard this before from other sources. He needed to have the CO2 gas cause the warming trends. As this film showed, the temperature is driving the increase in CO2 not the opposite. To think that anything humans can do will upset the ecology of this planet is the hieght of arrogance. In one eruption of a volcano there is more pollutants put into the air than we could dream of producing in many years. The planet seems to be able to recover from about anything. Someone brought up Chernobyl. The effects of that 'accident' were supposed to be catasrophic. It simply did not happen as the 'specialists' predicted. Yes there was contamination but only a small percentage of what was predicted and the earth seems to have been able to take care of most of that much quicker than the scientists had thought possible. For any man to guess what effects their actions will have on the ecology as a whole is to assume that we are much more knowlegeable than we really are.

"When men are learned they think they are wise".

For many years we have been trying to find ways to control the weather. We have not even been successful on a small local scale. The chances that cloud seeding will work is not in any degree a certainty. If we were capable of producing the negative effects that the environmental movement claims we would surely be able to be more successful in positive influences. If we were able in certainty of predicting the effects of CO2 gasses on the environment in 50-100 years we should be able to say what the weather is going to do in 24 hours. The whole 'people are killing the earth' idea is at once both absurd and arrogant.

Anonymous said...

I notice Muggs and fttc. have similar opinions on this subject,are both of you rural folk?BB, and Feral and Atari
do all of you live in town??

fttc said...

I would not by choice live in a city with a population over 1000. Is that rural? Are you making a connection to conservatism and rural communities?

Anonymous said...

I have a number of questions:

(1) If volcanos have been issuing CO2 for eons, why has the level stayed steady until the industrial revolution? Why is it only recently that it has gone to over 400ppm?

(2) Isn't saying "humans can't affect the climate" like saying "no matter what I eat, my body is resilient, and nothing can poison me?"

(3) Why are the oceans more acidic than they have been in the past?

(4) In a balanced ecosystem, you add an imbalance to one side of the equation (CO2 emissions from buried oil and coil), what is the force of nature that balances the other? The only possiblity is sequestering, because increased photosynthesis does nothing--photosynthesis and predation is a self contained balanced cycle. In order for photosynthesis to remove carbon long-term, it must somehow get sequestered. If nature was sequestering as fast as we are using, then coal and oil would be considered renewable.

(5) Why does CO2 allow ultraviolet to pass and reflects infrared, yet people deny it has anything to do with a greenhouse effect?

(6) Do you really, Really, REALLY believe that 4000 airlines in the sky at any one second (in the US) puts out less CO2 than a little volcano? Look at the size of those engines. Can you even fit all those engines in the top of a volcano?

(7) Isn't the site referred to by STG the same one (channel 4) that claimed man never made it to the mood, but staged the lunar landings in area 51? Didn't they claim that JFK was killed by an aerodynamically impossible bullet that pierced him, then went out like a boomerang and returned after a few somersets and also hit the governor?

(8) A volcano punctures how much soil? Is it really much less than all the oil fields that are being pumped? I'm sorry, but this bit about volcanos pumping more CO2 than human's machinery sends my BS detector off higher than any of Warren's sermons ever did.

Anonymous said...

Yes,I think rural people have a more "practical"take on this problem.

ATAR_i said...


I live on a farm NOW, less than five years ago I lived with my family RIGHT IN a major metropolitan city. And, our family also has lived in the suburbs, on a cul-de sac.

feralfem said...

I live in a very rural area. The nearest town has a population of about 1000.

Anonymous said...

You cant be serious, number-of-questions

All that proves humanity is the cause of global warming to you?

So much for your BS detector. It doesn't seem to working all that well in either circumstance.

Yes, you could put 4000 jet engines in the hole they made in the Cinder Knoll and that wouldn't be a pimple on a tit compared to some of those volcano craters.

Not to mention most all of your data is suspect to begin with.

Even though something might impact the greenhouse effect, that doesn't prove it is the cause of global warming, or that global warming is catastrophic.

Anonymous said...

I have a question for you 3:37

How hard would it be for them to prove scientifically once and for all that they have been to the moon. Just point Hubble there for a minute and take a picture of their "evidence". The problem is that it might prove that they didn't. So they won't do it.

Nobody believes the Warren Report. You didn't fall for that? Did you?

And by the way, the Abiotic oil theory does claim that oil is renewable and not "fossil fuel" dinosaur grease at all. Disprove that.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

Of which YOU seem to be #1.

bbgae said...

I live in a rural area- 1000 people. I have lived in a metropolis in the past, and I am moving back to one asap! (It is soooo nice to have the ability get a burger at 3:00 am- among other things!)

That people may assume they have total control over the earth or even over their own destiny is at once absurd and arrogant.
To assume our own actions have no effect at all is also. :) All actions have consequences even if we are not able to properly monitor or understand their full effects.

I am willing to say Gore might be full of it, but that does not matter. Eventually, our fossil fuels WILL become depleted. IF WE DO NOT FIND A RENEWABLE ENERGY SOURCE BEFORE THEN, WE WILL BE NO BETTER THAN BACTERIA IN A LAB THAT USE UP ALL THE AVAILABLE FOOD AND ENERGY IN THEIR LITTLE DISH AND THEN DIE.

Global warming has nothing to do with it.

bbgae said...

I will also add, that it doesn't HURT anyone or anything If I use 'green' technology. It will actually cost me less in power bills (that prospect is sooo terrible). It will cost me MORE to buy a 'green' car, but save me money on fuel (once again, terrible) AND.... does it really HURT anyone if I choose to emit less co2?

ATAR_i said...

BB - I'm of the same opinion.

If you can use a cleaner energy source, go for it, it's probably cheaper and more sustainable in the long run anyhow (like solar power).

Not being a scientist, and able to analyze the data as these people do - I RELY on the information given to me, and I rely on the truthfulness of the author, as well as the authenticity of the data, and the intelligent tranlation of that data. I can not know if one of these is wrong on my own.

That is my frustration.

So, in light of the new data - I will refrain from getting on tall horses, or throwing babies out with their bathwater. I'll do the best that I can - I won't contribute to the hysteria, but I'll be wise in my choices while I wait for some sort of consensus based on scientific data and not hysteria or political propoganda.

fttc said...


I will not/cannot argue that our actions do not affect our local environment. The smog that used to be much worse in metropolitan areas is evidence of this. If I dump chemicals down my well I can expect to be drinking them. Of course we need to be sensible about the environment, after all we do have to live in it.

If you choose to use
green fuel and drive a green car I don't have a problem with it. If you insist that I do so because some political hack tells you I am polluting the air with my gas driven car then I do have a problem with it. As far as the oil reserves becoming depleted we do not know this is the case. Scientists have assumed that the oil is from fossils. There is some evidence to the contrary and some scientists are researching the meaning of it. The inference is that the oil IS a renewable resource. We have been told for years that it will be depleted yet there have been deposits that were pumped dry and years later refilled. I do agree that we need to develop other energy sources but the reasons are not entirely environmental. We need to have some competition in the energy field. It would benefit us all. If nuclear, solar, wind, hydroelectric and other alternative fuels were readily available would we be paying as much for petroleum based fuel? I don't think so. It is not the scarcity of oil that is driving the price up. We have enough reserves within our own borders to supply us with the oil to run our country. It is the monopoly on energy that is causing it.

The move to produce more ethanol is driving up the price of commodities. Grains are worth much more (as much as 100%) than they have been because the ethanol plants are creating a huge demand for them. As feed prices are driven up the cost of living will increase. Our food that is relatively cheap now will cost more. Americas farmers will find a way to fill the demand, they always have, but is it worth the cost?


Thanks for a voice of reason. I know I do not have the answers. I can see when something fits in with common sense however. I really don't feel like I am on a high horse though I suppose it looks like it from way down there. :)

I think we should all learn from our mistakes, and at least to some extent I think we do. I haven't seen any lead pipes being used for drinking water as the Roman's had long ago. Pennicillin is no longer used for treating every malady that comes along. All I'm asking for is some common sense applied to our situations. If we know something is harmful then by all means let's not do it any more. But at the same time I don't accept every theory that comes along to judge what is harmful and what isn't. The claims and data given in the film above mentioned make more sense by far than the claims of the environmental movement as illustrated by the 3:37 post above.

Anonymous said...

You don't have any answers for anything Atar. your an idiot. Along with the rest of the morons on this site.

bbgae said...

You know I am not one to force anyone to adhere to what I believe.

fttc said...

I have not seen that you are from your posts. It just sounded as if you thought I were so I had to clarify. Thanks for the opportunity.

ATAR_i said...

7:51 While, I don't claim erudition on the anatomy of the ass, as you do - I can smell feces as well as anyone, and I think you are full of it.

ATAR_i said...

fttc - I think your horse is about 15-16 hands - just right!

feralfem said...

TBM, yes! I certainly have questioned why such articles as these are being published on the internet and not in the American Journal of Medicine... or any other medical journals for that matter.

People get the vast majority of their information from mainstream media - television, radio, newspapers, magazines, etc. The internet, books and emails are not considered part of "mainstream" media.

The pharmaceutical industry spends billions every year advertising in the media.

There is plenty of evidence (sorry, I don't have exact sources at my fingertips) for vast corruption in the media mostly due to fear of losing advertising dollars. Mass media refuses to expose even further corruption in huge corporations/industries. Prior approval by advertisers is required before saying anything even mildly negative about the pharmaceutical industry; this applies to other industries with big advertising dollars as well.

Add to this that big corporations have ownership and huge investments in the media as well as orthodox medicine. Orthodox medicine, medical research organizations and especially Big Pharma are all in bed together rolling in big money and banking on the public (you and me) being sick and needing their expensive drugs, vaccines and orthodox medical treatment. The FDA, AMA, APA, ad nauseam are all constrained by the pharmaceutical giants, their political clout and their big bucks.

In other words, Big Pharma and Big Medicine have the most money and influence over the media who are essentially owned and controlled by the same people who own and control the pharmaceutical industry. Illegal conflicts of interest abound when you look deep into this mess.

So! Is it any wonder, then, that alternative thought, inventions, and especially alternative treatments using natural (read non-patentable) remedies/substances can or will ever make it to the public at large via mass media let alone an orthodox medical journal?

IF anything alternative does get some exposure, this juggernaut has myriad ways of squashing it or destroying and discrediting its authors/practitioners and even their life's work. These corporate giants are not about to allow anything on the market they can't patent for their own and their shareholder's benefit.

A couple of examples:
* Stevia, an herbal/natural sweetener used extensively in Japan and other parts of the world is not allowed in this country as a "sweetener" - only as a food supplement, thanks to the artificial sweetener lobby. They can't patent a natural herb.

* Hundreds of alternative cancer CURES abound - many for over 50 years. Take the Budwig Protocol. After a great deal of research on fats (in Germany), Dr. Johanna Budwig discovered a cure for cancer using flaxseed oil emulsified in cottage cheese. (Sounds pretty weird, huh? But there's irrefutable science to back it up.) She also required a wholesome diet of natural raw foods.

She took many patients out of hospital after allopathic doctors declared there was nothing more they could do. She cured many of them as well as celebrities, politicians, and other doctors diagnosed with cancer who didn't want to suffer the allopathic methods of surgery, radiation, chemotherapy. There is no "war on cancer"; it's big business. Medicine is not a healing art; it is a business whose goal is not to cure people, but to maximize their profits. Follow the money trail.

Dr. Budwig was nominated seven times for the Nobel Prize but never won it. Why? Her discoveries threatened the emerging fats industry (i.e., hydrogenating fats to extend shelf life) and the profitable cancer industry (slash, burn and poison, with pharmaceutical giants at the top of the money chain). Big Pharma cannot patent natural foods. She continued to cure cancer, as well as many other chronic diseases, with her same methods for 50 years. She died in 2003 at 95 years of age, but her protocol is available to anyone who cares to research alternatives to allopathy.

I'm really only giving you a few "sound-bites" here... you can do your own research.

Speaking of cancer - something I (obviously or not) have a very personal interest in - here's where I first embarked on hundreds of hours of internet research:

If the public at large weren't brainwashed and had a sincere incentive to look for the scientific knowledge that has been out there for many years (especially on the internet and in books that only get self-published or by small publishing entities); if they knew they have alternative health choices, that vaccines contribute to eventually contracting one of the top three diseases in this country (cancer, heart disease and diabetes), and that there ARE CURES (not drugs for symptoms) for all of them, and IF the public were willing to get off the SAD (Standard American Diet) and start eating wholesome foods, there wouldn't be a corrupt Big Pharma, or Big Medicine using their scare tactics on us. Nor would there be the need for huge insurance premiums or medical/prescription fees to get medical care when it's really needed.

This is a huge subject and I'm certainly not addressing it adequately in these few words (though, sorry to say, this post is getting rather long). There are enormous bodies of knowledge and information to research.

Personally, I choose to live, breathe, and think outside the box. I research books and the internet and try to look at all the facets of a subject or controversy before I make decisions - especially decisions about quality of life.

I'm not looking for just information and knowledge; I'm looking for wisdom. However, IMO, you or I won't find it in mainstream publications and media. On the other hand, we won't anyway if we refuse to approach knowledge, information and wisdom without developed critical thinking skills and an open mind. (Maybe I'll elaborate on this last paragraph someday. You may hope and pray not. :-)

So, tbm, does information and research on the internet make one's findings invalid because it's not in so-called acceptable forms of orthodox media?

As for your comment: "...glaring logical flaws as I skimmed over it. For example, the article entitled "The Beneficial Nature of Smallpox" -- it's only going to be beneficial if it doesn't kill you first! Which it will do in most cases!"

That's a conclusion you're welcome to. Mine is that we won't get smallpox in the first place (no matter what the exposure) if we eat healthy foods, practice good hygiene, and maintain a positive mental attitude. But if I DO get some disease like smallpox or cancer or whatever, I won't treat the SYMPTOMS allopathically. I'll go after the CAUSE - which is usually attributed to an unhealthy diet (SAD), too much stress, and lack of sunshine, good water, clean air and good attitude.

TBM said...

The smallpox essay was written by a chiropractor, who apparently has little if any idea what function kidneys fulfill in the body. Perhaps she thinks that an ability to straighten backs qualifies her to pronounce on toxicological and microbial theory, but I'll stick to the people who've actually studied it. Call me small-minded ...

TBM said...

Street, why don't you just start the day with coffee, like ordinary people do?

Anonymous said...

Well, bro b

Thanks for the warning.

But how will you protect yourself from the masses coming out of
Sidney who will want your organic food?

And will you be running that diesel bulldozer with canola oil?

ATAR_i said...

I'm skeptical of anything/anyone who can claim to cure cancer.


It's just too damn general of a claim.

Cancer is cell growth, gone crazy. Blood cell proliferation might be a cancer like AML, CLL, ALL, CML - which is very different than a tissue or gland cancer - like breast, bone, prostate, colon, liver, ovarian, thyroid, pancreas, lymph nodes etc.

Or skin cancers like Melanoma, basal cell squamous cell etc.

What about metastatic cancer where the tissue has proliferated and mutated so much so, that the primary tissue cannot even be discerned?

There is no way in HELL you can tell me that the treatment for all these is the same.

Or, what about a female breast cancer in a male patient - perhaps one who received a kidney transplant from a wife, who found a lump in her breast only days before the lifesaving transplant was to take place, and didn't want her husband to suffer anymore - so she didn't say anything.

A FEMALE breast cancer in a male patient - how do you treat that? (hint - not with dietary supplements)

NOT that I think toxic chemotherapy is the only choice, or radiation, or stell cell, or autologous stem cell, hormone, or cell cycle specific drugs are the only choice.

How bout - stay out of the sun, don't smoke, don't drink a lot, don't do drugs, don't have sex before your 18, and don't have sex with multiple partners - prevention is HUGE!

But - that lady on tv who tells you that she can cure her cancer if you buy her book should be taken out into the pasture and shot. If I was the family of a person who died after refusing treatment because this 'doctor' told them she could cure their cancer - I'd go all scientologist and sue sue sue the crap outa her.

And honestly, despite our best wishes, we can't always cure stuff, not even with noxious poisons, or organic herbs - sometimes none of the stuff works.

The best doctors are those who use a combination of therapies, who take into account the fragile emotional condition, the weakened physical condition as well as the vigorous cancer rapidly proliferating inside.

So, if I ever get cancer - I'll get the best oncologist I can, get everyone I can to pray for me, give my body what it needs to heal nutritionally and emotionally, and then I'll pray, cross my fingers, get my affairs in order, update my will and enjoy every day as if it were my last.

fttc said...

We are all so different, cancers are all so different that what cures one may kill the next. I think Atar gave the cure in her last paragragh. I know several who did just that and they kicked the cancer and had many days to live as their last cancer free.

Anonymous said...

tbm 7:51, perhaps we should change the troll's name from on the street, to under the bridge.


muggsey said...


In my 10:12 post I can't find any reference to video games. But now that you mention the subject I have read where several psychologists have determined, in samplings over some time, that constant repeated exposure to violence can trigger violent behavior in an individual so inclined. I think that if you really think about it, the idea that an individual (actor or actress)is either killed during one hour on one network and the same person appears live and well on another channel is confusing to children who don't really understand the experience of death. These people (actors/actresses) seem to die and re-appear with a great deal of regularity.

I don't play those video games because the movement is not porportinuate to regular time and space and besides I get a headache even after a few minutes so I am not a good judge of the effect of the games but, I still think the horrible violence portrayed too often on T.V. can't possibly contribute to good mental and emotional health.

muggsey said...

Annon. 3:37

Has anyone considered the fact that the capability to measure quality and quantity of the atmosphere have been available for less than 150 years. How in the world can you broadly say that such and such effects anything without having an accurate measurement upon which to make your judgement?

This is hypothesis without any basis, in other words, nothing but pure guess work. Some prof. or former Vice President voices an ominous opinion and because they have achieved some notariety their proclamations are considered by news hounds as being gospel truth. Al, go back to Oz, your local yellow-brick road is full of potholes. This is a farming and ranching community so you can guess the contents of the potholes.

muggsey said...


Ya' hit a home run with your opinions and understnding of cancer. This disease is too gigantic in boundries to have but one name, cancer. From first hand experience I agree with you whole heartedly.

I try to keep my afairs in order, try to eat a balanced diet, get plenty of rest, don't smoke, drink or have sexual relations with anyoue except my wife, am content in my relationship with the Lord and am ready to go home at his will.

If I am diagnosed as being terminal and the medical quotation related to the percentage of expected recovery doesn't correspond with that which I have pre-determined to be suitable, call Hospice and let me go in peace! I don't want my family to suffer any longer than God permits. They know my feelings, I have a living will and keep the other will updated. I'm ready to go anytime. I'm as serious as death about this. No doubt to some who share this web-site tonight might not be soon enough!

Anonymous said...

Then again, It might be too soon for you.
Maybe you are not as ready as you suppose.

bbgae said...

in the words of your 8:13 post psychologists have determined, in samplings over some time, that constant repeated exposure to violence CAN trigger violent behavior in an individual so inclined.

My point exactly.

IF someone were allready the type of individual "so inclined' to have violent tendancies, and IF they were constantly exposed to violent media in it's various forms THEN, MAYBE they might to something like kill the public.

This does not mean that video games ARE THE cause of such behavior.

And, no. I am not saying you think it is, either. :)

I completely agree with you about the cancer. My mother had ovarian cancer and they trierd to cure it with 'miracle tea'. She ended up getting a hysterectomy.

I really, really like you. I am sorry for being so sharp with you. I do not think you are trying to force me to believe what you do. I think your horse is just about right, too. :)

ATAR_i said...

group hug

feralfem said...

I certainly concur there is NOTHING like prevention.

Briefly stated, my position is: improper foods cause disease; proper foods both cure and prevent disease. I realize I am at times in sharp disagreement with organized orthodox medicine.

I simply trust Mother Nature and the innate capacity of the human mind/body to heal itself when necessary. We are marvelous physical, mental, emotional, spiritual beings. I only wish to take very good care of all those aspects.

I subscribe to what Hippocrates said to his medical students, "Thy food shall be thy remedy."

Like the subject of religion, health and how we approach it is very personal and can be very controversial. You have never seen me discuss or argue religion or religious belief on this forum, nor will you. Today, I learned I should treat the subject of health in the same manner.

fttc said...


Just don't be a stranger. You have brought an intersting perspective to the blog. You disappeared for while and I hope this does not send you away again. I did not feel you were being controversial to the point of arguement and I appreciated your views on health. The discussions here sometimes seem a little on the sharp side but they usually end in one of Atar's group hugs. :)

bbgae said...

Hey:). Don't leave because we disagree. please.

There IS a lot of good to be said about healthy living and herbal remidies.

TBM said...

feralfem: "proper foods both cure and prevent disease"
I don't think anybody denies that. What's being denied is your apparent suggestion that there is nothing else to take into account, and that everybody who ever died of AIDS (for example) just wasn't eating enough granola.

"I subscribe to what Hippocrates said to his medical students, "Thy food shall be thy remedy.""
Hippocrates also said the human body was made of earth, air, water and fire. He also advocated treating the symptoms of disease -- exactly what the articles you linked to say that you shouldn't.

You make yourself extremely vulnerable when you start quoting without any reference to or knowledge of the quote's actual context. While your links like to call Hippocrates "The Father of Medicine" far more frequently than doctors tend to, the truth is that Hippocrates' ideas couldn't have been more wrong, and have been completely discredited.

TBM said...

Muggsey: "the capability to measure quality and quantity of the atmosphere have been available for less than 150 years. How in the world can you broadly say that such and such effects anything without having an accurate measurement upon which to make your judgement?"

Water in its various forms disolves gases very well. In Antractica, where no ice has melted probably since the earth began, they can drill down into the ice pack, take samples, and study the disolved gasses in them. If they can calculate that the ice 100 feet down, say, is 500 years old, then the gasses contained in that ice tells them what gasses were present in the atmosphere 500 years ago, and in what proportions.

Anonymous said...

Assuming that they were the same in the ice at the frozen surface as they were in the atmosphere 7 kilometers up? Or did I miss something?

fttc said...

Anon 1:22

You make a very good point. The science involved here is based on assumptions according to our best knowledge of current conditions. Could there be errors? Could there be other factors not considered that would affect the outcome? The answer has to be yes. If the answer was no there would be no room for debate. I put my trust in the fact that there is a supreme power overseeing all of nature. I trust that if that power got us this far it can take us as far as it would like us to go and we can do nothing about the final result. Those who deny the existence of a God must get very frustrated at the uncertainty.

bbgae said...

I believe there is a higher power that is in control, but I do not believe we should just sit back and let Him work, either.

God helps those who help themselves.

However, I agree with you that we shouldn't go to the other extreme, never leaving our houses and cowering in fear, either.

muggsey said...


Then explaine how geologists have done carbon dating on the various levels of the Grand Canyon and discovered that the rock at the bottom is newer than that at the top?

fttc said...

I find that highly interesting muggsey, can you document it?

TBM said...

1.22: "Assuming that they were the same in the ice at the frozen surface as they were in the atmosphere 7 kilometers up? Or did I miss something?"

fttc: "Could there be errors? Could there be other factors not considered that would affect the outcome? The answer has to be yes

No scientific study can ever be 100% reliable. However, they do try to take potential flaws into account and devize methods for testing them also, and they can arrive at a conclusion that is very likely to be correct. If they then repeat the experiment many times, and arrive at the same conclusion every time, then the likelihood that they are wrong is very small indeed.

Anonymous said...

So you compute 100 times and get 95 different answers. That means that 5 of them were the same. Thats significant. Eureka.

the_lerker said...

That's extremely simple to explain.

The earth was a swirling mass once, as shown by the magma and liquid rock spewing from volcanoes. As it cooled, naturally the surface solidified first, making the surface the oldest layer, and any subsequent layers would solidify afterwards, making them younger.

Ice on the other hand, solidifies much quicker and in a layer by layer sequence.

Anonymous said...

Atari; I can see by your self rightious post that you have never experienced cancer in your life! So when you blast feralfem for her beliefs on how to manage, treat and prevent cancer, it is obvious that you have never dealt with it.

I have survived cancer three times now, and I will tell you this.....I allowed medical doctors to treat me the first time, and the cure is worse than the disease. I was SOOOOOOO DAMN SICK when they got done with me. My quality of life was extremely poor, and it took me YEARS to get over my "medical intervention".

Then second time, I went to a treatment center in Mexico, and bounced right back with almost no discomfort or down time. When I was diagnosed with the third tumor, that time I chose to take a different approch. I started to practice an alkaline lifestyle, and treat it myself, starting with WHY I WAS CREATING THE CANCER INSIDE MYSELF IN THE FIRST PLACE!! That was a biggie for me to grasp! But as soon as I understood the THOUGHT PROCESS then I was able to take it from there. And yes, feralfem, FLAXSEED OIL (organic, FRESH cold pressed, of course!) had a lot to do with it! So did cleasing and ENEMAS (gasp!! ooo I said it!!) and lots of other "disgusting" and "old-fashioned" methods and ideas (to most people and the medical professionals I had contact with) that were MUCH less expensive and easier to do than anything else I have ever done. (Like chemotherapy which SUCKS for everyone but the doctors and Big Pharma and maybe you, Atar!)

So, little miss RN (or whatever you are) you can keep your "traditional" medicical training. I hope for your sake, you never get cancer, because it is a painful slow EXPENSIVE death through the hands of traditional medical professionals. But the rest of you should check out the websites that feralfem gave the links for. They have wonderful infomation on them that can help ANYONE, not just people with cancer,to live healthier, happier, more energetic lives! One of these days, the medical profession will HAVE to acknowledge these truths!

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt to prove it....

Anonymous said...

You already "new" (like not old, unused, etc) that? Are you trying to say "knew" (like having a knowledge of something). It is just as well you post anonymous because your ignorance would burn you at the stake and we'd not find the need to.

A wiser man than me once said, "It is better to shut your mouth and be thought a fool, then to open it and remove all doubt." I would commend to you brave little anonymous posters that you do the same.


Anonymous said...

It is just like me to not heed my own advise.........

PB <----He's going to be quiet now.

Anonymous said...

Chaster from the Stop Polyg Abuse blog site. Greetings from Utah. Hey. What is the deal with the antisemitic stuff that greets you when you come to this site? Is that what you folks are about?

TBM said...

Ummm ... anti-Semitic?

TBM said...

1.55: "So you compute 100 times and get 95 different answers. That means that 5 of them were the same. Thats significant. Eureka."

That would indicate that your thesis was definitely wrong. 499 identical results out of 500 is more like what scientific studies generally aim for.

bbgae said...

No, we aren't all about chewing you out when you post here. We just have a few resident trolls....

I am glad you are alive and have beaten cancer THREE TIMES!!!!! You are unique, you know that, right? You are special. But let me tell you something- just because something worked for you does not mean it will work for someone else. EVERY BODY is different- that includes it's repsondses and reactions to medicines and treatments and diseases and illnesses.

Once upon a time, a long time ago, medicine WAS herbs and enimas and all that until, gradually bit by bit through trail and error, doctors discovered one thing that worked better than what they were doing previously and they changed and changed until you have modern medicine as it is today. Prescriptions are made from the same ingredients as your herbal tinctures, they are just more refined.

Why would you want to undo hundreds of years of medical practice just to satisfy YOUR trust issues?

LAY OFF ATAR!!! She isn't the doctor or nurse who tortured you. And you showed the world you could get on very well without them.(You:In you face, modern medicine! :) ) Why are you so bitter still?

bbgae said...

And to you Anon 1:38-
Atar is strong. Your snide little remarks do not phase her, if you can't tell by now. EVERYBODY here states an opinion. Why do you choose to aim your poison at her? What's it to you?

I suppose the Administrator won't rise to your bait, and nobody else will listen to you, so I guess you think you have to pick on someone....

Anonymous said...

Through surgery I have had the opportunity for the Lord to work miricles in my life. Through his healing hand I have undergone sixteen surgeries for cancer, have been cancer free for nearly 20 years.

Faith that the Lord will guide a surgeon's hands and that you will be healed, if it is HIS will prepares you for ridicule from those who don't believe in HIM or my simply want to make up their own system of healing. Our friend may have experienced divine intervention but I can't help but wonder if she's given God the glory?

I have attended a few "healing" services in churches that specialize in that ministry. Some may have indeed been healed but it is most strange that the same people get into line at each subsequent service to get an a chance at another healing.

muggsey said...


Are you reading something between the lines of our posts? I have neither seen nor written any anti-Semenic post. Maybe it would do you some go back and read the posts again. If you think I am the guilty party, post the date and time to which you refer and I will review and attempt to clarify, if the meaning was not crystal clear.

muggsey said...

Anti-Semitic, whew! Sure glad I caught that one

bbgae said...

Thanx, Muggsey for catching it, because you helped me catch it too. (This uneducated girl had to google the word[sheepish grin])

No, Muggsey I do not think you are a troll, and I am clarifying this because that assumption might be reached from my earlier post.

You were being sarcastic, right? You can hardly call Muggsey's 'quick rundown' of the origin of the Jews anti-semitic.

Anonymous said...

bbgae; it is so cute how you put your nose up certain people's a**es like a cute little high school sophmore to gain their favor, (with all the cutsie little smiles and winks and such), but I was only posting my opinion. I feel that Atar was just as strong with her retort to feralfem, and it is her right to state strongly, just as it is my right to state mine. Besides, she is a big girl, and doesn't need you to "stick up" for her. I'm sure she took it in the way I meant it, and not the way you took it. Chill out little girl. You don't own this blog... (surprise!!) it was here long before you decided to hijack it.

Anonymous said...

Yes, it is obvious that bbgae was not too popular in high school. That is the kind of stupidity that adults who never aquired any social skills participate in.

Anonymous said...

hey gae girl; who is baiting whom? you are the one that rises to all the "troll" bait! what does that make you? you disgust me. why even react to anything you don't agree with? you could just ignore it, or better yet, do something else with your time. it must get old, monitoring everyone one the blog at all hours of the day and night. but i guess someone must make sure that everyone plays nice in the sandbox.....have fun bossing the trolls around!

Anonymous said...

Atar; I feel that I need to make myself a little disclaimer here! When I went back later and read my post, I can see where someone might think I am mad at some nurse or doctor.....that is not the case at all!!! I am very grateful for the wonderful job that all of them did in my behalf! And I CERTAINLY did not mean that doctors and nurses do not have their place! And I especially did not mean to come across as putting you personally down in any way at all!! I know that you all do the best posssible job you can!

I just meant for cancer, it seems that traditional medical treatment has really lost out by comparison to some of the alternative treatments available!

I highly admire anyone that goes into any field that helps others to heal!! My most humble appolgies for anything that appeared to put down the great doctors and nurses in our midst! I feel that people should follow their gut feeling when treating ANY disorders they have! And that gut feeling might just lead them to traditional medicine! I just think that it is a good idea to look at ALL the infomation there is out there, and not just expect someone else to do all your thinking for you!

Am I forgiven, Atar? (Relax, bbgae! I am not here to pick on people! Sorry you took it that way! In the future, I will try to post a little more gently, so as not to offend, or be misunderstood, ok?)

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt to prove it....

ATAR_i said...

Perhaps my response was a little strong, I wasn't really thinking of feral when I wrote it - It was aimed at the woman on the infomercials. She has targeted vulnerable desperate people in order to make money.

And, you were off the mark as far as knowing about cancer - I get the side effects, I get the cost. $32.00 for one Kytril - and don't get me started on the cost of the poison. But once you've watched a child die, a child who didn't have the chance to eat poorly and do to their body what adults do to theirs - you realize you can't always put things into nice little boxes.

Anonymous said...

Mea culpa, Atar! Perhaps I misjudged your paradigm? Thanks for the clarification! Sorry for the hasty judgement! I will just go back to my lurking!!

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt to prove it!!

bbgae said...

Been there done that...-
Hey. :) Maybe I should post a little more gently, too. Of course I forgive you- I'm really glad you're here, actually. I still can't get over the fact you beat the cancer THREE TIMES. You deserve a medal or something. Sorry for my sharpness. I tend to show my teeth when I think someone is causing pain or stress to someone I like, but I can see now that was not your intention.

IMHO- you should feel free to post whenever and whatever you want. I like you, too.

feralfem said...

Oh wow! I go away for a couple of days and when I come back it looks like I started a mini-war! {wink}

Let me start off by saying, hell no! I'm not going away. Sheesh, I was here looong before any of you! Since its inception, in fact, when just about the only folks posting here were YFZ's neighbors. BTW, where have all y'all gone?

So, folks, I'm going to dump a few posts here in response to at least some of what has followed since my last entry. You may say I lied about not arguing health, any more than I would about religious belief. What can I say... I'm here to share what I've learned and a few of my opinions. Take it or leave it.

To Muggsey,
Yes... I am "...old enough to remember when polio vaccine was not available..
Yes, a whole bunch of of my children were delivered by a midwife - because that's the way I wanted it. Childbirth is a natural phenomenon. But then, I lived in a relatively hygienic environment, ate a healthy diet and had developed NO fear of childbirth. (I guess I've been something of a health-nut most of my life.)

As a child I went through all the normal childhood diseases and so did my children. In fact, when one child caught measles, mumps, whooping cough, chicken pox, etc., all the children (remember, I'm talking about large FLDS families) were exposed and got through it. We now have natural lifetime immunities without being injected with poison vaccines. I passed a lot of my own immunities on to my children through my breast milk.

Muggs, I really can't speak to what you experienced or what your forebears may have told you they experienced. Our past experiences are very personal. I know I've romanticized parts of mine and sometimes, when I'm able to look back at certain events and practices with a cooler, more objective eye, I can see a different reality, some of which can only be chalked up to ignorance.

As far as my stance that vaccines are not only ineffective but dangerous, did you even look at any of the articles within that link I posted before? For instance: GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US - There are some interesting graphs there.

And a quote:
"So what were the true reasons for this decline [in death rates from infectious disease]? From his book 'Health and Healing' Dr Andrew Weil best answers it with this statement;

**Scientific medicine has taken credit it does not deserve for some advances in health. Most people believe that victory over the infectious diseases of the last century came with the invention of immunisations. In fact, cholera, typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough, etc, were in decline before vaccines for them became available - the result of better methods of sanitation, sewage disposal, and distribution of food and water.**

feralfem said...

In no way am I suggesting there's nothing else to take into account. There are enormous issues to take into account - particularly IF one is unwell and IF one has unhealthy eating habits. That's why I offered some web links as a kick-start for those who just might be interested in reclaiming their health or preventing disease and ill health that typically befalls poor nutrition and an unhealthy lifestyle. My opinion, my experience.

What's with that ridiculous AIDS/granola remark?

And how did you conclude that a six-word, properly attributed quote from Hippocrates (which very succinctly reflects my own belief) meant that I subscribe to everything he ever taught?

Good grief! It never occurred to me that it was necessary to elaborate on Hippocrates' whole philosophy just to give context to such a well-known little aphorism. That would be ridiculous too, eh?

I might conlude that you're the vulnerable one and/or something I said hit a nerve. Do you have some prejudice against alternative medicine or natural health modalities? I'm not preaching here; I'm voicing my opinions on a subject I really care about, the same as you and everyone else here.

feralfem said...

To bbgae,
I must respectfully disagree with what you said about medicine a long time ago versus your apparent belief in how good it is today.

"Perhaps the words "health care" give us the illusion that medicine is about health. Allopathic medicine is not a purveyor of healthcare but of disease-care." And I would edit and add to the end of that sentence, with drugs.
Reference: Dr. Mercola's website, "Death by Medicine" Take the time to read through that link (and other sub-links there). It's a kick in the pants.

Also, "Prescriptions are made from the same ingredients as your herbal tinctures, they are just more refined."

Sorry, I think that's just plain wrong. If you took some time to research outside the mainstream propaganda, you'd find a different truth. Of course, it depends on what sources you want to believe. And please don't get upset... you shouldn't take personally what's intended to be a friendly critique. Be well.

I do apologize for flooding your thread. :P

feralfem said...

To Atari,
It's alright to be skeptical; I know I certainly was before I embarked two years ago on cancer research looking for alternatives to the (IMO) utterly inhumane slash, burn and poison methods offered by allopathy - the only methods allowed to mainstream physicians. Their license to practice would be forfeit if they used any other means -- because of the AMA, FDA and pharmaceutical juggernaut. It's a known fact that doctors get little if any education in diet and nutrition. They know a helluva lot about drugs, surgery and anatomy.

"Perhaps the words "health care" give us the illusion that medicine is about health. Allopathic medicine is not a purveyor of healthcare but of disease-care."
Reference: Dr. Mercola's website, "Death by Medicine".

Truly, I'm not knocking the many good doctors I know are out there that truly care about their patients and do the very best they can. Some of them just have to leave the mainstream (and the $$$) in order to do that. Others leave the country (i.e., Mexico). Most just can't get past their industry's indoctrination.

I respectfully disagree with your statement to "stay out of the sun." Prudent sun exposure is necessary for good health. Try a Google on sunlight vitamin d

"...the human body was designed to live in harmony with sunlight. We evolved under natural sunlight, not under fluorescent lights with a lifetime supply of sunscreen on the shelf." ... My editorial: sunscreen is full of toxins.
Reference: Sensible sunlight exposure prevents skin cancer; findings baffle old school doctors

As for watching a child die, I agree with you: it is indescribably devastating. I won't even get started on that one nor how genetics come into play. That's a separate issue to what I'm addressing here. I'm talking about adults who are irresponsible about their eating and health choices.

To everyone,
The sad thing is, so often adults' bad choices are going to adversely affect their children's health - even well before conception. That applies to both mom and dad. There's just no way to address these issues in a few words, so I won't. If you care about your health and especially if you choose to have children, do your own research. You owe it to yourself and your unborn children.

BTW, Atari, I didn't take anything personally in your post. I hardly watch TV, but if I saw what you saw, I'd probably have a similar strong reaction.

"And honestly, despite our best wishes, we can't always cure stuff, not even with noxious poisons, or organic herbs - sometimes none of the stuff works."
Right on!
There's a huge body of work about the mind/body connection which I believe includes our spiritual selves.
Joy... that's what we should be about... and like you say "...enjoy every day as if it were my last."
That's cool!

Anonymous said...

Feral Fem suffers from optical rectumitis. (Head up the posterior so far she can't open her eyes.) Could it be that's because of the truth she chooses to believe. Sort of like the Book of Mormon, huh?

feralfem said...

To Been there, done that,
Congratulations on beating your cancer. I couldn't be happier for you -- or the hundreds of others I know about who have done the same, always via the alternative and complementary medical route.

One thought that came to mind while reading your story and the part where it was such a "biggie to grasp" the concept of "WHY I WAS CREATING THE CANCER INSIDE MYSELF IN THE FIRST PLACE!!" was this:
You (anyone) really cannot get away with changing your lifestyle and eating habits in order to beat cancer and expect to then go back to the old way and not expect it (cancer) to come back with a vengeance. I see that happen over and over again. I'm saying that to everyone; you obviously, and happily, figured it out.

Regarding cancer cure rates; to quote from cancertutor.com,
"The fact is that if you get cancer, and you use nothing but orthodox cancer treatments, your chance of surviving your cancer (and surviving your cancer treatment) is only about 3%."
"If they [recently diagnosed cancer patients] pick the best possible treatment for their situation, when they are first diagnosed, a 90% or higher true cure rate is fairly easy to achieve. Overall, there are at least two dozen alternative cancer treatments that can come close to a 90% overall true cure rate across the board for those who use alternative cancer treatments exclusively."

Reference at cancertutor.com

BTW, Dr. Budwig used flaxseed oil mixed with cottage cheese, sunshine, fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds, etc., for over 50 years on her patients, some of them just hours from death. Her cure rate over that long period of time was 90%.

feralfem said...

To all:
On a personal note, I don't feel I'm just blowing a lot of hot air. As a FLDS child (we were just called Fundamentalists back then), I was raised with some pretty good health standards and practices - home vegetable garden, whole raw milk from our own cows, ground our own whole wheat flour, practically lived outdoors in the sun, no vaccinations, etc.

Then, as an adult, I worked for quite a number of years in the medical field.

To my detriment, I've more recently spent a number of years indulging in the current, SAD (Standard American Diet) way of eating. So, I've experienced all sides.

I've returned to my nutritional roots (sadly without the veggie garden this year). Knock on wood, I'm in excellent health. What I'll admit I have not experienced is any extended ill health other than the routine childhood diseases, a few colds and a very few bouts with the flu. Once during my SAD days, I experienced one bout with "walking pneumonia."

It's loved ones whose lives I'm concerned about now.

The links I've dropped in here are just teasers. Look deeper and you'll get a useful education. I think it's important to understand, you have to take all data, information, and knowledge and make of it what you will, hopefully using your best critical thinking skills.

My personal goal is to find wisdom.

bbgae said...

Thankyou for ALL your posts. I'm glad you are not leaving- sorry for jumping to conclusions. :)

I don't consider it MY thread, so, by all means, hijack it! (And thanks for respectfully disagreeing:) )

bbgae said...

Administrator: This newer version of blogger the blog moved to is SWEET! I don't even have to sing in! Thank you!!!!

I realize it is entirely possible that the fossil fuels are renewable. There are earthquakes around marshes, lakes, rivers, and in the oceans all the time that could trap the water and apply the right amount of pressure to create more. The problem is our consumption rate verses the rate the fossil fuels are renewing themselves. It takes a very, very long time (a thousand years?) to create one gallon of fuel, and your car can burn a gallon of gasoline within minutes. It is the supply and demand ratio that is way, way off. We are consuming the fuels at an incredible rate compared to the time it takes to renew this valuable resource.

weblog administrator said...

It took a lot of prodding, but it looks like the folks at Google finally managed to migrate this Blog to their new servers. I was beginning to think they never would.

Anonymous said...

THANK YOU FERALFEM!!!!! I was beginning to get worried about you! I just knew that you wouldn't let this pass without comment unless you had a good reason....

In addition to the websites that feralfem recommends, I would like to add www.phmiracleliving.com and look for the article,
"The History of Virology, Bacteriology, Mycology and Vaccination" Sorry, I don't know how to create a link, so I hope this will work for those of you who are interested in this info!

It is a huge eye-opener! (And the website is a wonderful store of knowledge! I hope that those who are looking for the answers to living quality lives will find what they are looking for!

Been there, done that....man, I gotta lotta tee shirts, but I always want more!

TBM said...


Drawn by someone with no medical training, but with an ax to grind -- forgive me if I'm a teensy bit skeptical. I find myself wondering what he didn't mention because it detracted from his argument -- you know, the same approach that those other ax-grinders, politicians, always use.

And yes, feralfem, I certainly do have a prejudice against alternative medicine. While I'm quite certain that some of it is genuinely beneficial, I'm just as certain that much of it is modern snake oil.

But I appreciate that you've clarified your position somewhat. Based on those links you posted, it looked as though you were some nut who figured nobody would ever die of anything if they lived right.

I had visions of you never washing or shaving, and dancing naked with the butterflies! ;-)

feralfem said...

OMG! TBM, I'm speechless! (well, almost ;-) You either have extreme powers of discernment, or I'm awfully transparent.

But of COURSE I don't wash or shave! (it's unnatural!)
And... and... how did you know I dance naked with the butterflies?

Ummmm.... have we met? ;-D

Anonymous said...

wow, feral, do you still date?


feralfem said...

Take a number, uncaduff. But first... are you available?

feralfem said...

TBM, I do share your skepticism. I agree "that much of it is modern snake oil." And that's the rub - sifting through it all to arrive at some kind of truth. (I think I'm a born skeptic.)

I just want to grow old gracefully and die a natural death, not from some disease that wracks and ruins my beautiful body (EVERY body's beautiful) - disease that I could have prevented if I had taken better care of my health.

bbgae said...

I just want to grow old gracefully and die a natural death.

Amen, Feralfem.

Anonymous said...

Feralfem - Not EVERY body is beautiful.... I can put web links in to prove that. :)


Anonymous said...

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, PB! So that proves that EVERY body is beautiful! (I think there is beauty wherever you look for it!)

Been there, done that! Damn it was fun!

Anonymous said...

LOL!! Uncaduff, Yew old Dawg, yew! Y'all better be watching out for that redhead of yours, unless you are lookin' for a reason to kiss and make up!


feralfem said...

PB, Go ahead; I dare you!! You little devil. ;-)

Of course, you knew I was talking about the evolutionary / divine beauty of the human body as a sublime work of art.

feralfem said...

Hey Uncaduff... I been thinkin'. Yer such a cutie! I love dates! ('specially date-nut roll)

Tell ya what... you be the date, I'll be the nut... bring the redhead, and let's roll!

(I ain't called feralfem fer no reason, ya know.)

Anonymous said...

aaaaah... feral, my wife has never accepted the principal... so I guess not.

ATAR_i said...

OK - this thread is absolutely beautiful - do you guys know how absolutely funny you all are!

Dancing naked with butterflies - I'm impressed TBM.

I've got to leave now - I truly wanted to think up some delicious post - but have no time.

I think traditional medicine gets it right sometimes - they hit one out of the ball park. Other times, it just fizzles, or causes more damage.

I'm not terribly enthused about herbs and etc as an alterative TREATMENT for many things - but, I get lovely suprises now and again when alternative therapies hit a grand slam as well.

As far as sunlight - yes, I should have revised that to say sunscreen - not sunlight (my bad) - but you get the message.

Bye for now - you guys are great.

Anonymous said...

Atari why don't you go and not come back.

Anonymous said...

WT, the redhead has a firm grip on this ol dawg's leash, an knows his bark is harmless.

bbgae said...

Hey, Feralfem,
An interesting piece of information came my way today. John Hopkins and the Walter Reed Medical Center were circulating information a Dr. Edward Fujimoto, Wellness Program Manager of Castle Hospital explained on a tv program recently.

No plastic wrap in the microwave, no plastic containers in the microwave, and not plastic bottles in the freezer. The reason for this is dioxin chemicals in the plastic are released into our food and water when the plastic is heated or frozen. The dioxins are highly poisonous to the cells in our bodies. They have been known to cause cancer, particularly breast cancer.

I have not done any research myself to prove or disprove this yet, but since we were discussing the subject, I thought I would mention it.

I also thought it was interesting because plastic is a by-product of the fossil fuels, and we were discussing that subject recently, too.

bbgae said...

And to you, Anon. 5:30-
Why are you so threatened by Atar's presence? Does her light shine too bright for your eyes?

feralfem said...

Hey, bbgae, ;-)

I've known about the dangers of plastic for some time now.

Get rid of all plastic ware.

Replace non-stick pans with good stainless steel or enamel-coated cast iron. Never cook in aluminum.

I know I'll get blasted for this, but get rid of that microwave, too.

Honestly, sometimes I think convenience is a euphemism for degenerative disease.

Do your homework.

PS: Don't feed the trolls.

bbgae said...

OK. ;)
Is there a way a way I can defend someone should I choose without feeding them?

ATAR_i said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
feralfem said...

Well, bbgae, the short answer is "No."

But here's what *I* think - uhhh the long answer ;-)

Except for the occasional juvenile troll, presumably we are all adults. We participate on blogs like this to express and exchange opinions, thoughts, ideas, beliefs, news/gossip, some humor and just good old-fashioned dialog. If some Anon targets a legitimate contributor with juvenile, stupid, vulgar remarks, it's up to the target to choose whether they wish to defend themselves. It isn't necessary to "mother" or defend perfectly capable contributors. I do think some contributors get a charge out of challenging trolls.

Personally, I never feel I have to respond - and I don't - NOR do I ever feel I need to be defended by anyone else. I'm a grownup and NO ONE out there on the internet can make me feel bad, mad, or sad. No one out there knows me that well, and I can very well defend myself, thank you very much. I simply ignore stupidity. Trolls get off on ANY kind of reaction and it just keeps 'em coming back for more.

One other issue with blogs: many - or even most - do not allow anonymous posts like this one does - and this one allows it for some fairly good reasons. I say "fairly" because this blog hopes to get input from some historically "gun-shy" folks.

IMO, the same thing could be achieved by requiring a blogger ID which, as we all know, can still remain anonymous - just a quick and easy registration. But some of our gun-shy folks still feel real uncomfortable, so in the past, users here pretty much voted to keep the ability to post anonymously. Big open door for anonymous trolls.

Yes, I know they can come stalking in here with their own registered ID, too. So we, as responsible bloggers, just need to use good judgement when the occasional troll stumbles around in here. I say, step aside and let 'em fall.

Anonymous said...

The depths of hell open up and all ye LDS do enter into burning sulfuric depths of hell and perdition. Fire and brimestone do meet thee and pools of burning fire. Hells fire and perdition do await thy coming. Thy infamous leader is soon to go down to the depths of hell and perdition where he does belong. For from his mouth come lies and more lies.For satan have power over hime. And satan will have him. And he will have his reward.

Anonymous said...

Blind TBM says: "

These are a few things that come to mind for me. Any thoughts or expierences that anyone has on this subject would be welcome here. I also thought it would be nice, because Easter is right around the corner."

Yes all you STUPID LDS who think Easter is something special to do with your religion. Its as stupid as Gordon B. Hinkleberry.

Of course all you LDS who think your Mormons are'nt even Mormon AT ALL. Jack Mormons run by Jack Mormon Hinkleberry.

Anonymous said...

maybe one a you folks with the authority, ought ta start a thread about what makes a troll tick. I know, it would be a four course meal, with seconds on desert, for the little green twerp under the bridge, but it might be interesting.


TBM said...

feralfem: "get rid of that microwave, too."

Now feralfem, you wouldn't diss microwaves if you'd ever nuked fairy lights.

No really, you should try it sometime! This is what chaste and sober BYU students do in the evenings :-0


TBM said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TBM said...

Uncaduff, I know you like calling On the Street "Under the Bridge". But since I'm pretty certain he's drunk, how about "In the Gutter?"

bbgae said...

Thank you, feralfem for your response.

I am glad this blog allows anonymous posters. It's nice to hear from the gun-shy ones who post occasionally. I assume they are usually faithful FLDS or just recently ex-FLDS. I understand their reasons for wanting to stay 'under the radar.' I posted anonymously for a time before I dared sign up as a blogger. If the price for this courtesy to these people is a troll here or there, I think it is worth it.

I think I might be one who likes to 'get after the trolls'. But I really don't want to play 'mother'. And I am a little embarrassed some of my posts caused such a reaction from the trolls and everyone had to read them. (Maybe not HAD to read them.) I should have known better.

In the future, I will stay my fingers from the keyboard and step aside. :)

P.S. I like your winky smile!

feralfem said...

Oh tbm!

Great ideas there on much better (if a bit dangerous) uses for a microwave. Scary! :-0

Thing is... just don't eat any food cooked in 'em.

Anonymous said...

Feral fem, your comments on plastics, cooking with stainless etc were very good to hear.

We have learned the same things.

Also, we dont deep fry anything,and only use olive oil for cooking.

Heres something youd be interested to see.

Next time your in a supernmarket, where the roll of plastic produce bags is mounted on the wall, look above the roll. The wall will be stained black with evaporating hydrocarbons.

These are carciogenic.

Thats what new car smell is as well.

bro B

bbgae said...

Wow, tbm! I finally checked out your site on microwave experiments. It was pretty cool.(I'm keeping my kids away from it until they are old enough to buy their own microwave, because they will think it is cool, too.) :D

We use olive oil too.

feralfem said...

I never cook with olive oil - only use it in my homemade vinaigrette.

I cook with virgin coconut oil exclusively - very stable and doesn't burn.

Interesting about the plastic produce bags. I'll have to check it out.

bbgae said...

Coconut oil....yum! I love coconuts!

Anonymous said...

You need to close this blog. Its history ever since warren got caught it has been irrellivant, NA, nothing to moan and groan about. Warren is going into prison probably for many years. Nothing going on here but some old crows on the telephone line with nothing to crow about any longer. Shut it down, lock it throw away the key. RIP

ATAR_i said...

You don't have to come and sit on the wire if you don't want to.

Your goal must be to trash specific individuals, call everyone names, debase them, and ultimately close the blog.

If you don't care, and we don't say anything important - why do you come, why do you care, why do you want this blog gone?

Besides - I think warrens impending mental incapacity is very interesting. All his court dates have been dropped from the books - the proceedings of the last court date sealed - looks like they are priming the pump for a mental defense and a nice padded cell.

Does that upset you?

bbgae said...

Well, I'm not going away. I've just been extra busy lately.

ATAR_i said...

Me neither - I know the troll is just trying to take the bridge.

TBM said...

I'm still here!! And I agree with you, Atar -- the Warren stuff is still fascinating.

I wonder how they're doing down in Eldorado? We haven't heard from Pilot in a while. Are they still building now that Warren's not around, and may even be losing his authority over the FLDS?

Anonymous said...

about Warren.... the best is yet to come.


muggsey said...

feralfem re 4/24/07 1:31

I don't understand why you presume that Salk's injectable vaccine and Saben's oral polio prevention did not effectivly help to produce a relativly polio free society? Louis Pasteur led the charge against small-pox. The development of DPT vaccine etc. curbed Diptheria, Purtussis, (whooping-cough) and Typhoid. Injectons for the prevention of Diptheria and Typhoid were available individually for many years before the combination injection was made available. Vaccines are available and do perform the task of giving immunity against measles, mumps and a variety of other diseases common to childhood.

I understand the hypothesis related to the older children bringing an infection home to the younger ones so, that often, by the time a child came to school age they had already experienced the majority of childhood diseases.

The wonnderful thing is that that suffering assoiated with those diseases is no longer necessary. Of course there are always exceptions, but in general the vaccines have, when given to the child in accordance to schedule, prevent both the child, his siblings and his parents from having to be exposed to these diseases that used to annually take more lives than have been lost in totality of those lost in combat in the Iraqui war.

I remember in the spring or summer of 1960, when the first polio vaccine became available. A dramatic drop in incidence of people being infected occurred immediately.

I have been injected three times as preventative for smallpox. My grandchildren have never had to take the vaccine. I had to take a three shot typhoid series and a booster shot each year. Now children take the DPT according to schedule and never fear the possibility of the disease.

Scrub typhus was a horrible malady in the tropical jungles of the world until a team of U.S. Army Preventative Medicine personnel found a cure. Thousands of lives have been saved.

I have lain upon the operating table more times than I care to admit to. Each time I have asked the Lord God to direct the hands of the surgeons as they performed their necesary duty. Following, the surgery, even while under influence of some anesthesia I thank Him. One day I may not awaken. Oh my family may grieve my passing but they all are aware of my destination. Each and everyone of them, including grandchildren have learned and accepted the blood of Jesus Christ as payment for their sin. In their own time they will join me and others who have gone before. what a reunion that will be. I have assurance that whether I live or die, I am in the hands of the Lord. It is he who made me as I am, trough the normal fertilization, gestation and birth as a human child into the hands of a loving caring Christ serving family.

Does medicine have all the answers?Those who work in medical research will tell you that they have only begun to scratch the surface. Plague, Cholera, and Intestional parasites are on the decrease and one day will be eliminated. STD cases are being treated. I believe the reason that the diseases are rampant is not the fault of the medical community but the fault of those who fail to use good sense, share their body with only their mate and learn to be celebate in the event that sexual activity is no longer possible. God's Love is Sufficient. Love is not only about sexual contact, neiher is sexual contact about love. When an individual becomes so selfish that he thinks a quick romp in the bed is love he is sorely lacking. Love is caring, sharing, compassion, praise, grieving, and celebration. Love is the true personification of two individuals becoming one flesh, one is incomplete without the other.

Many of those whom I call family have gone to be with the Lord and are awaiting the arrival of we who know Christ in the forgivness of sin, for in HIM alone we are his brothers, sisters and children. He paid the price for our salation.

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe,
sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

I serve a Risen Savior, He's in the world today,
I know that He is living, whatever men may say.
I see his hand of mercy, I hear his voice of cheer,
And just the time I need Him, He's always near--
He Lives, He Lives, Christ Jesus Lives Today,
He Walks with Me and Talks with me, Along Life's narrow way.
He Lives, He Lives, Salvation to impart!
You ask me how I know He Lives? He Lives within my heart.

I'm so glad I'm a part of the Family of God, I've been washed in the fountain, cleansed by His blood, Joint-heirs with Jesus, as we travel this sod,
I'm a part of the family, the Family of God!

For I know whom I have believed, and am pursuaded that He is Able, To Keep that which I've committed to him against That day.

ATAR_i said...

Polio is devestating - thank GOD in heaven who gave men the TALENTS to discover a vaccine for such a disabling disease.

I work with a young man who was not born in the US, he's young, and crippled - he didn't receive the vaccine like our children did.

Thank heavens for the smallpox vaccine, and tetanus, diptheria and etc.

bbgae said...

That was a lovely poem you quoted. Thanx for that. :)

Anonymous said...

Listen to the crows on the fence line crow away. Black creatures with dark minds, full of nothing, knowing nothing.

muggsey said...


Re. 4/23/07 8:50 AM reply to my previous post/Grand Canyon-carbon dating.

At the time of my post I was calling upon my recollection of having read or heard about the shocking evidence relating to the G.C. phenomea.

I had to find some sources to back my statement. Of course, there are multiple arguments on both sides of any issue. The very fact that such an unusual event occurred or may have occurred is worthy of note. Try any or all of the following links:




muggsey said...


Allow we mortals a little leeway. We were experiencing some very interesting, if not especially enlightening exchanges here on Texas Polygamy blog. There is no law, edict nor anyone requiring your presence here. Since you don't like us, or our viewpoints, why not just go away. You add nothing, just bluster, flatulence and hot air.

I guarantee your contributions will never be missed by any viewpoint.

Anonymous said...

Did anyone hear about Dan Timpson
(still faithful to warren) getting a DUI? Whats strange is he isn't even kicked out yet. Though Wendell M sure got the boot faster than anyone. Hmmm... I wonder if Will(the bishop) evens knows about Dan's boozing, he probably does but they're brothers so Dan is safe(he hopes) for now. We'll see what happens eh

ATAR_i said...

I do find it odd that this was placed on every single thread. It seems malicious - and insincere when delivered in this manner.

Anonymous said...

Yes, obviously this poster is one of the "vigilanties" that we sooooo appreciate for their wonderful contribution to society!! Dude, maybe you could find a drowning man to pour water on next!

It's weird that they are so bitter about people like Wendell Musser getting in trouble, but they WANT to see others suffer!

bbgae said...

Have you not taken into consideration that the Dan DUI poster might be related to Wendall M. and that is the source of his/ her bitterness; the source of his/her pain? I do not agree with posting this rumor on so many threads, but can't you see this person's confusion?

The basic question being asked here (although it could have been presented in a much gentler way) is: Why can two people commit the same 'sin' and one of the be torn from his life and family, while the other receive seemingly no punishment at all. How is that right?

Aren't these some of the basic questions we all started to ask ourselves when the truth began to dawn for us? Were we any less bitter or more gentle when we when through the same thing?

ATAR_i said...

I began to reply initially - using that logic - as the unequal punishment for similar sins is something that many different people have a problem with.

Unfortunately the problem is - how could any one of us know, or have the information to even deduce that? In such a secretive institution, filled with families, strategies and intrigue - it's fairly clear favorites are chosen. But how can we know everything, including why someone was booted.

I just think there is no way to argue fairness in that situation - because we have absolutely no access to the facts.

So, poster could be, as you said - and I was inclined to initially believe - wanting to dialogue. But after reading the post, and finding that poster has no interest in dialogue (as evidenced by his lack of response) - it clearly is only an attempt to sling a little mud IMHO.

Anonymous said...

I think I know very well who posted that info about D T, A barlow man that is fed up with the
favoritism that is obviously going

Anonymous said...

Check how many cough medicine bottles are in their vehicles.
That legal and deadly. And a good hiding spot.

What state did the DUI happen in?

ATAR_i said...

Seemed more like a drive by egging than anything else. If poster does want to actually discuss favoritism - fine - discuss it.

poster didn't stick around other than to just spam and run.

bbgae said...

LOL, lol!
I like the drive by egging, Atar. :D I think you may be right in your assessment of this situation.

ATAR_i said...

We'll never know unfortunately : (

Now...I'm going to watch the finale of the bachelor, even though I already know who wins.

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