Saturday, March 24, 2007

Leona Jeffs Allred "Jeffs"

This has bothered me for a long, long time. If any of you out there were to her funeral, or to the church meeting afterward, you know what I am talking about.
Technically, this means all of 'Aunt' Lucy Barlow's children (Louis) who are 'Allreds' are technically REALLY 'Jeffs'.

107 comments:

Anonymous said...

Please tell us about her funeral and the
meeting afterward,bbgae.Is this Rulons sister?Did Rulon also have brothers,nephews etc,in the FLDS sect?

fttc said...

bbgae correct me if I'm wrong. I thought Leona was Rulon Allred's wife. Have I got the right Leona? Was she the one that was declared to be Uncle Rulon's wife after she died? If I am right this was just another of the extremely weird teachings coming from the warren crowd. One that I thought would wake up some people. It didn't seem to even phase anyone. Her death happened after I had quit going to meetings or funerals. (Actually when she died I think funerals were the only meetings being held).

bbgae said...

Leona Jeffs was Rulon Jeffs full blood sister. She was a plural wife to Rulon Allred of the aub, and when his group 'left' the FLDS she wanted to stay. She remained in contact with 'Uncle' Roy the prophet at the time and when he said it was safe, she left her husband and returned. She took her sons, Richard and Jamed with her. I think there may have been one daughter, too, and I think she had to leave a few children in the aub. She is the mother and grandmother of all the Allreds in C.C. She lived in 'Uncle' Rulon's house when I first knew of her and that's where she was living when she died.

The first thing I noticed that was strange was all the little allred children referring to 'Uncle' Rulon as GRANDFATHER.
Then there was the name, printed at the top of her funeral programs exactly the way it appears (minus the parenthese)in the title of this thread.
I heard her apostate Allred realitives were very angry about this when they saw the programs. If they only knew.....
The next Sunday, Uncle Rulon had a Brother get up in church and tell Leona's story. I forget who. Durring the course of his speach he told us that Leona had married Rulon at her own request! And just about the time there started to be an undertow of whispers, we all got the 'lesson' about how sacred things are to be kept secret. We were all commanded to not speak of it and then read a sermon by Brigham Young wherin he states something like this:

God knew the characters of all His children and their actions before they were born. He knew who would be a saint and who would disobey his laws. He does not let the man whom He sends to lead His people go astray. The prophet CANNOT sin, or he wouldn't be the prophet.

I can give the exact refference for that sermon, if anyone would like it, but I won't quote it.

Anyway, suffice it to say, by the time church let out we were all mollified. We kept our silence, and believed the incest to be sacred!

Anonymous said...

BBGAE,
Did you know this woman yourself?I have always wondered why she brought James and Richard and the one girl(Margie?) back with her,and left the older daughters with the A.U.B. Allreds?

e.texas said...

2:09 and curious others,

Like my mother, Kathleen Jessop Jeffs, Aunt Leona had 'only' four children. When she (Aunt Leona) left Rulon C. Allred, she left behind only one, her eldest daughter, Lenore, who had already chosen her path in life, rejecting the Fundamentalist (both AUB and FLDS) lifestyle.


bbgae - you said:
"The next Sunday, Uncle Rulon had a Brother get up in church and tell Leona's story. I forget who. Durring the course of his speach he told us that Leona had married Rulon at her own request!"

This is the first I've heard (my, my how secrets do flourish!) that my dear Aunt Leona was "married" to my father - her brother. I believe the correct word would be "sealed." (I will not try to explain my understanding of the difference here.)

Further, I believe you have grossly misused the word 'incest' - which means: "Sexual intercourse between persons too closely related to marry."

I would bet my life that no such thing ever occurred between them. Incest is when my father married his granddaughter to his son and they went forth and multiplied and replenished the earth. (sorry... my angst is showing)

You also said:
"Then there was the name, printed at the top of her funeral programs exactly the way it appears (minus the parenthese)in the title of this thread." (I think you meant minus the 'quotes', not 'parentheses'. Perhaps I'm a little slow; that confused me at first.)

Do you have a copy of Aunt Leona's funeral program? Does it really say that? I'm terribly curious!

I was at her funeral. I have a copy of the program right here in front of me. It clearly does NOT have the quoted "Jeffs" on it. It is Leona Jeffs Allred both on the cover and inside. Is it possible there were two different programs printed? Did they hand out one style to "insiders" like you, and another to "outsiders" like me? Fascinating! Fascinating, because I was not being shunned or made to feel unwelcome there before my father died in 2002.

bbgae, I would very much appreciate receiving from you the "exact refference for that sermon." Also, I would very much like to know which "Brother" told Aunt Leona's story in church the next Sunday. Please... anyone?

I can be reached at:

e.texas@gmail.com

bbgae said...

fttc- Leona's funeral happened about ten years ago, I think. Since Anon 9:39 has the funeral program still, maybe he/she would be so kind as to tell us when she died, because I threw mine away ages ago and I don't remember.

9:39-I stand corrected on the name on the program. Sorry.

fttc-Leona died before her brother Rulon died. Back when there was church on Sunday, dances on Friday, holidays were still celebrated, and apostates and gentiles were still allowed to come to the funerals.

2:09-No, I did not know Leona personally. I had one innocent conversation with her over nonconsequental things in 'Uncle' Rulon's home. I shook her hand countless times and I know she was treated with respect.

9:39-
Yes, I meant quotes, not parenthese. Sorry. :)

Ok. I will say sealed, not married. they were not legally married. If they were not 'seled' why did the Brother say so in church? Proveing who it was will not take away the words, no matter his character or actions. If they were not sealed, why did 'Uncle' Rulon's younger wives call her 'Mother' Leona like she was one of them? Instead of 'Aunt' Leona? Why did the Allred children call Rulon grandfather?

You know very well that they were sealed. Stop trying to deny it to save face.

If you insist, I will bring forth a witness or two who was also at that meeting. It happened in C.C. and that was where Leona lived. Did you by chance live in Sandy? Even so, I do not believe that you did not know unless you left before it happened.

Yes, technically if Rulon and Leona were sealed that does not mean that anything happened between them. According to FLDS law, if the woman could not bear children, the man was to leave her alone. They were both to old to have children.

Explain to me, please, how a 'sealing' between a brother and his sister is not incest, even if nothing happened.

Were they not expected to procreate in heaven? Wouldn't they know this?

I do not have the exact reference of the sermon the Brother delivered, but I have the reference to the sermon HE quoted. I was wrong, it was not Brigham Young, it was B.F. Cummings. Truth vol. 6:81. It is also in the student Star, vol. 16 p 25.

You didn't feel unwelcome in C.C. until Rulon died? Didn't Warren like you? Or had you left earlier? Before Leona's funeral? If so, of COURSE they would not have told you!

By all means, be angry! I am angry too. This was not right! I would love to be proved wrong, but there are too many things against it.

'Uncle' Rulon was MY prophet. His death was the final blow to my faith. He wasn't supposed to die. He was supposed to be 'lifted up'. And, no I am not telling this out of vengence becasue he died, but becasue it has bothered me for a long, long time.

fttc said...

e.texas

Thank you for your post. I love to see someone challenge the stories told on here with other perceptions of the truth. You have given some very credible points that refute what has been told. Does bbgae have the timing of Aunt Leona's death correct? She would put it in 1997. I was still in at the time and don't remember the funeral. Possibly it is one I missed. I thought it took place after I quit warren's program.

bbgae
Your comment about the sealing being incest because they will procreate in heaven does not take into account that our religion taught us that we are all brothers and sisters in heaven. They would not be the only incestual couple there. Does is justify the sealing? I won't go there now.

bbgae said...

fttc-
You are right, I did not take that into account.

If it can be proven that they were sealed, are you ok with it?

ATAR_i said...

this is so interesting!

fttc said...

I have my reservations.

e.texas said...

Hello fttc,

Direct from Aunt Leona's funeral program:

LEONA JEFFS ALLRED
She was born May 19, 1912, in Salt Lake City, Utah
to Nettie Lenora Timpson and David William Ward Jeffs

She passed away at the St. George hospital
September 22, 1998, of illness related to age.

SERVICES HELD
Sunday, September 27, 1998, 1:00 P.M. (MST)
L.S.J. Meeting House, Colorado City, Arizona

As for "Warren's program" - I think (my opinion!) it really started some time before the SLC group moved to CC. In other words, he exercised a great deal of influence over Father (who was already failing in his health in many ways) well before the migration. This "taking advantage" kind of scenario has happened with every Fundamentalist leader in its history. (in my opinion!)

That move occurred early in 1998 didn't it? I left long before that - 1983,'84 - so a great deal of what I "know" would legally be considered hearsay.

To further clarify my position here: I lurk on this and other forums in an effort to learn and hopefully understand what is happening to so many of my loved ones. I posted to set the record straight about dear Aunt Leona. It saddens me to think I may never again see my former "mothers" in this life.

Elaine nee Jeffs
e.texas@gmail.com

e.texas said...

Hello bbgae,

By no means am I angry. (angst and anger are NOT the same thing)
I am one of the most calm, peaceful, not-bitter ex-FLDS people you could ever know. I CAN be fiesty, I sometimes employ sarcasm (possibly MY brand of anger), but I possess a great sense of humor.

However, do I detect a little self-righteousness when you say, "You know very well that they were sealed. Stop trying to deny it to save face."? ;-)

I have absolutely no need to "save face." Why would I? (That's not an idle question; I'd truly like to know your answer.)

Whether they were sealed or not is of little consequence to me. Remember, there's a difference between being sealed "for time" and "for time AND eternity." IF there is a next life, all things will be sorted out there. For all I know, Aunt Leona would be required to return to her husband (Rulon C. Allred) to whom she was sealed "for time and all eternity." From where we sit now, NO ONE can say unequivocally what will be. I would even pose that as a challenge to anyone who says otherwise.

You said:
"If you insist, I will bring forth a witness or two who was also at that meeting. It happened in C.C. and that was where Leona lived."
Of course I know Aunt Leona lived in CC.
I will not say I "insist," but you've offered, so I would like very much to hear from such a witness or witnesses. Please.

You asked:
"Did you by chance live in Sandy?"
Yes. My father had many homes in the Salt Lake area during my growing-up years - one for each of his wives. The home in Sandy was one of them. I spent many wonderful summers and weekends there. My own mother lived in SugarHouse where I attended school. Father did not bring his entire family under one roof in Sandy until a short time after I was married. I lived my entire FLDS (not what it was called then) life in Salt Lake. I've never lived in CC.

You said:
"Explain to me, please, how a 'sealing' between a brother and his sister is not incest, even if nothing happened.
Were they not expected to procreate in heaven? Wouldn't they know this?"

I believe fttc adequately answered this question. In any case, I do not care to elaborate on it today. You could email me.

As for the exact reference for "that sermon," I apologize. There is no need. I know very well that doctrine wherein God knows exactly how we will "turn out" even before we are born. After all, I am my father's daughter. He taught me very well.

I just wanted to know WHO gave the sermon and told Aunt Leona's story in that meeting. Should you ask why, I am MOST interested in verifiable truth. It's important to me in leaving a legacy of historical truth for my progeny.

You said:
"You didn't feel unwelcome in C.C. until Rulon died? Didn't Warren like you? Or had you left earlier? Before Leona's funeral? If so, of COURSE they would not have told you!"
I felt very welcome in CC before Father died. I think once my husband died in '92, and he was posthumously excommunicated, and I was led to believe I had just cause for leaving, my family expected me to return to the fold. Not.

I have no idea whether Warren liked me. That did (and does) not concern me. As I said in my previous post, I left in 1983-'84.


bbgae, I can understand your anger. There is so much that is "not right." But I would say to you as a friend, anger and bitterness are not only not useful, but extremely stressful to your mind and body. I believe I resolved that even before I left. It put me miles ahead once I made the awful decision to escape the betrayal and lies.

For me, it was more a matter of terrible disappointment and sadness. Too much crossed my logical boundaries. My focus, as I think is your basic focus, was to rear my children to be responsible-thinking and -acting adults - to do no harm to themselves or to others. The biggest need is to build your own and their self-esteem to that end and help them understand they have choices. THEN it must follow that there must be understanding about the consequences that follow choices and that every individual OWNS them.

One final note...... just for today, be nice to me, huh?
It's my birthday. ;-)

Namaste ......and apologies to all y'all who hate long epistles

Elaine nee Jeffs
e.texas@gmail.com

fttc said...

e. texas

Thank you. You stated and clarified my belief that this happened after Uncle Rulon was incapacitated. That was actually my underlying point. I find it highly interesting that you as a daughter see things the way I see them as a lay member that only had direct contact with your father about once a month.

Thank you for sharing your perspective as a former family member. I feel for you in regards to your mothers. I too have family that I don't know if I will ever see before we meet in the hereafter. It is heartbreaking and absence makes the heart grow fonder. I only love them more.

bbgae said...

Happy birthday, Elaine. :)

I really do hope you have a good day today.

I can see that you are a very calm person. I do not think I could have been as calm as you were if someone had said that about MY father. I really admire that strength in you. I have no right to be angry.

I really am not angry or bitter. I promise. With me it was a combination of reasons for leaving. Some things just didn't make sense, I was hurt (yes, I forgave them), and I am entirely too fiesty for my own good which nearly always gets me into trouble, as you can see.

I just don't understand how this could be right and it bugs me.

I will contact my witness. It may take a couple of days, but I will ask them to post on this subject.

Yes, I probabally was being self-riteious in that statement. I deserve a set down for it. The reason I made it was becasue I assumed you were one of the 'faithful' Jeffs trying to make me look like a lying apostate. I thought you might be assigned to damage controll. I never expected to be challenged on this subject. Please accept my sincerest appologies.

Further proof what I have said is true: The lot signs for Aaron Allred, Daniel Allred,(on Utah ave. and Oak St. side by side) and their older brother(who married Dan Barlow jr.'s oldest daughter)(on Central St. and Cook Ave.) say Jeffs at the end. (Now watch, the faithfull will have them removed, just becasue I said this.)

You have an excellent point about time vs. eternity. I have no idea which was the case. You are absolutely right that know one knows for sure what the afterlife has in store for us.

I should have said this in my earlier post, but I will do so now. Supposedly, Leona only maried Rulon a short time before she died. The ONLY reason why was because Rulon was worried about her needing a priesthood head and asked her who she wanted to marry. She supposedly relpied that she didn't want to re-marry anyone, and just wanted to stay living in her brother's house. He told her she couldn't- she needed to be married. She supposedly spent alot of time in prayer and finallly asked Rulon if he would marry her so she could stay there. She was really worried he would say it was a sin, but he agreed out of kindness for her so she could stay where she wanted to stay. I think the Brother who gave this sermon and explained all of this was a Barlow, but I cannot be entirely certain, so I will not say. I REALLY REALLY don't think there was anything between Rulon and Leona. Incest is way too strong of a word, I just don't know what other word to use. It's a wierd situation.

You are completely right about my focus, my children, and consequences being the natural result of actions.

To all:
I am not on this blog to tear anyone apart. Or change their mind on anything. I know I have a sharp tounge, please forgive me. I am here to hear about what goes on in C.C. and to express myself. I apologize for my too frequent posts and for their usual epistle like length. :)

fttc said...

Explanations are always helpful. I don't think apologies are necessary. I think many of us try to be brief and sometimes it takes several posts to get our true intent accross. That you do it one post is not a bad thing. (It is true of blogs that long posts are not often read thoroughly. Part of the computer time versus regular time thing).

Anonymous said...

What was Leona doing married to the leader of the A.U.B.?Please pardon my ignorance,I am not an authority on Fundamentalism,I have always noticed the
FLDS and AUB dislike and avoid each other.

furnace said...

I was at the funeral. As told by Alan Steed, Leona told Rulon "I want to marry you." Rulon replied, "It can't be done here, but it will be taken care of in the next life". Maybe my memory serves me wrong and it may have been a work meeting to keep this away from others, but I do believe Alan stated it at the funeral.

Anonymous said...

I remember that as well,I also attended her funeral and Alan Steed did announce their conversation. This surprised alot of people including me.

Grateful Mama

Anonymous said...

finally true blogging

bbgae said...

Thankyou furnace.
Thankyou, Gratefull Mama.

It appears I got the details wrong. But I was still telling the truth.

bbgae said...

5:47-
Leona married Rulon Allred BEFORE the AUB becasme the AUB and BEFORE the FLDS were registered as a church (I think). Back when they were all ONE people.

10:51-
Define true blogging.
Do you rejoice in my defeat? It was not a total defeat, and at least I will admit when I am wrong!

What goes around, comes around....

e.texas said...

Hello Furnace and Grateful Mama,

Thank you so much for your recollections. That really helps.

May I request one final clarification?

I, too, attended Aunt Leona's funeral. According to my own recollection (as well as the funeral program listing in front of me), Allen Steed did not speak. He did dedicate the grave.

So, would I be correct in assuming that what you heard Allen say would have been at some meeting after her funeral?

Please understand, truly, I have no reason to debate this; I'm merely looking for verification and truth. If I am wrong about this, I will desist.

It matters to me to keep my family history straight as much as possible. I only wish I could interact with my beloved family as easily as we used to - before Father died.

I certainly appreciate your inputs!

Elaine nee Jeffs

Anonymous said...

No, there was not another meeting on the subject. What I remember is it being said. I do not fully remember who said it. I thought it was Warren from what I was remembering. I do not have a copy of her funeral,so I could be wrong as to who said it,but,the truth is it was announced.

Grateful Mama

bbgae said...

Elaine,
There is no need to apologize. :)
You have every right to want the exact truth. I'll do what i can to help you find it. Forgive me?

Anonymous said...

It's turned into a love fest in here! Am i on the right blog?

fttc said...

Are you the same Anon that complained about us only ragging on the FLDS?

Inside-Out said...

Check this article out on KSL.com

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=1037331

Warren is finally comming to reality.

Inside-Out

Anonymous said...

To furnace,

Aunt Leona DID NOT SAY " I want to Marry you" What she said was and I quote. " If it would be all right, I want to belong to you" Uncle Rulon then said (not his exact words, but close) This request will have to be done on the other side, as I do not have that authority.

AFTER!! Aunt Leona passed away, (with her loved ones at her side) then Uncle Rulon made the comment " This dear Woman has waited all her life for me"

I take it from this that she was sealed to him. And Uncle Allen Steed DID make this announcement, as he was talking in Meeting. He was called to talk on Sunday afternoon Meeting. As he got up to talk he made this statement " I would like to tell you a Love story, if that would be alright with you, Uncle Rulon" then he turned to Uncle Rulon, and Uncle Rulon said yes.

Anonymous said...

10:19 -

So what will that mean in the celestial kingdom? If Rulon Jeffs is a god of his own kingdom, will she as one of his wives help populate his kingdom, or will she be a hand maiden to his other wives and celestial children?

As a woman, neither sounds great to me. How about you?

Anonymous said...

How many of us are children of Mother Teresa?

Anonymous said...

How many of us are children of Mother Tresa?

bbgae said...

11:01-
No. That is not appealing to me, either. And I don't care about the argument that we are all God's children. IT STILL doesn't seem right to me.

Fttc-You indicated that this was all something Warren taught after Rulon was incapasitated.

I do not think you are right about that one. This is why:

What would be the purpose of telling the people this; the advantage Warren would gain? Would he tell it for an advantage, or just for a private joke to have one over on us? Or for another reason altogether? If so, explain. If it was a private joke, I will concure. If it was for an advantage, don't you think he would have used something like that to gain power over the people SOONER by judging the actions instead of SUPPORTING them? Do you think Warren convinced Rulon and Leona to do this thing? If so, why did SHE ask to belong to him? It was my understanding that she was fully in controll of all her mental facilities until she got the sickness that sent her to the hospital. Correct me if I am wrong, here.

But you are overlooking two very important pieces of evidence. #1-The fact that the Allred children referred to Rulon as GRANDFATHER. It was spoken to me by an Allred girl in my same grade as early as 1991. And the other Allred children called him the same thing several times in my hearing as well. The explaination I heard for this (from my mother who is not related) was 'Uncle' Rulon was takeing care of Leona, and so the grandchildren called him grandfather. But don't you think they should have called him UNCLE RULON??!! If anybody had the right to, they did. 1991 was BEFORE 'Uncle' Rulon had his stroke. BEFORE "Warren's program' effected what went on except in Alta Academy. Didn't you ever wonder why Leona never re-married? #2- The fact that 'Uncle'Rulon's wives referred to her as MOTHER LEONA when speaking of her and to her. Not Aunt Leona. I heard this with my own ears when I was up there helping Jenny Wall 'Jeffs' and Becky Wall 'Jeffs' with alot of other girls for the 24th of July parade. And yes, you can argue that that was in the begining of "Warren's Program" because that was also in 1997.

There is also the Allen Steed factor. IMO- He was one of the most honorable men I ever knew. He would not believe a lie. He would not believe even a convincing one. He would not tell what he believed to be a lie. He wasn't even TOLD to tell about it. 10:19 is right. He ASKED for permission to tell it. And if I remember right, some of his first words were "FOR SEVEARL YEARS (open to interpretation) I have been privy to privelaged information. And the only reason I was, was because I was married to Aunt Leona's daughter and it pertained to me and her and our children." (Was he married to her daughter? Am I remembering it right?)

SOOoo....Even if they were not sealed before she died, even if she may not nessisarily 'belong' to him in the afterlife, it was still told to the people AND THEY ACCEPTED IT (even me, although it BOTHERED me as I stated several times). And that was wrong! It is still wrong for a sister to ask to 'belong' to her brother. It is still wrong for said brother to agree, EVEN IF it was not in his power to do so (and didn't) and EVEN IF it was only SUPPOSED to happen in the after life. It is STILL wrong for the children and grand children of said sister to call said brother Father and Grandfather for years.

Anonymous said...

bbgae,

Not necessarily, they could have called Him "Grandfather" or Her "Mother Leona" out of respect. Not really meaning for persons such as yourself to take it so literally. (no offense intended) I have seen and heard of this in the past.

bbgae said...

1:29-
Ok. No offense taken. Thanx, acually, I had not heard of it.

feralfem said...

I agree with Anon 1:29

Acutally, addressing women as "Mother So-and-So" is no different than EVERYONE saying "Uncle Roy" or "Uncle Rulon" or "uncaduff". Right? They are not everyone's "real" uncles! It's just a term of respect and a tradition among the FLDS.

I think the "Grandfather" and "Father" titles were the same. After all, Leona's children and grandchildren looked to "Uncle" Rulon in that "role" and in that observation of respect. It's not literal.

Anonymous said...

OOOOOH! Let me make sure I understand this correctly!

So, bbgae, you can sit and say that it is ok for gay people to do what they do, and you will support their right to do it, no wrongs or rights here, everything is hunky-dory. And you can say big sensational eye-catching words like "incest" about things you don't really even know the whole story about. (Without disclosing that the whole thing is your OPINION or that it may be HERESAY!)

HOWEVER, when someone calls a person that is NOT their grandfather "Grandfather" THEN THAT is a totally different story! NOW we are talking REAL BIG WRONG STUFF HERE!!

To quote your 1:09 post, "It is STILL wrong of the children and grandchildren of said sister to call said brother Father and Grandfather for years."

Golly darn it, I gotta tell ya, girl. I am impressed! You are really on to something here! I think you should just let the world know that IT IS JUST PLAIN OL' WRONG THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE THE AUDACITY TO CALL SOMEONE A NAME THAT THEY DON'T DESERVE! YOU GO, bbgae!!

Ok, sarcasm off now. Is is just me noticing, or did someone die and leave the blog to bbgae in their will?? Just wondering.

Anonymous said...

And....it bothered you that someone just might reveal your identity, but you freely discuss the private lives of others BY NAME here on the blog. Hmmmmm. Very interesting. Maybe there could be a discussion about the stuff that happened to you? I for one am very curious about your side of the story. I mean, it just bothers me! I want to find the truth! I wonder if I am the only one bothered by this.....I wonder if what I remember is correct???

Try that on for size, bbgae!!

Leona's Grandson said...

BBGAE,I am not sure what you are trying
to prove with this information,But Leona
Jeffs Allred's daughter Lenore is not married to Alan Steed.She is married to a gentleman named Roger Jones.

bbgae said...

2:39-
THANKYOU! :)
Are you the one that said Leona had four children? Lenore, Richard, James, and another (girl?). Did she marry Allen Steed? Anybody know?

I didn't mean Lenore.

I am just telling what I remember. This was nine years ago, and my memory is faulty. How well can you remember what happened 9 yrs. ago?

bbgae said...

I am not trying to prove anything, just discuss what bothered me, and find the truth; find out if I was the only one bothered by this and if what I remember was correct or not.

Anonymous said...

Didn't honest Al also do some illegit things when Steeds & Son's went under?

Anonymous said...

This is really weird. I posted these posts ATFER bbgae's last posts, and it puts them AHEAD of them.....Must be the time zone difference.



Anonymous said...
OOOOOH! Let me make sure I understand this correctly!

So, bbgae, you can sit and say that it is ok for gay people to do what they do, and you will support their right to do it, no wrongs or rights here, everything is hunky-dory. And you can say big sensational eye-catching words like "incest" about things you don't really even know the whole story about. (Without disclosing that the whole thing is your OPINION or that it may be HERESAY!)

HOWEVER, when someone calls a person that is NOT their grandfather "Grandfather" THEN THAT is a totally different story! NOW we are talking REAL BIG WRONG STUFF HERE!!

To quote your 1:09 post, "It is STILL wrong of the children and grandchildren of said sister to call said brother Father and Grandfather for years."

Golly darn it, I gotta tell ya, girl. I am impressed! You are really on to something here! I think you should just let the world know that IT IS JUST PLAIN OL' WRONG THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE THE AUDACITY TO CALL SOMEONE A NAME THAT THEY DON'T DESERVE! YOU GO, bbgae!!

Ok, sarcasm off now. Is is just me noticing, or did someone die and leave the blog to bbgae in their will?? Just wondering.

3/27/2007 1:57 PM


Anonymous said...
And....it bothered you that someone just might reveal your identity, but you freely discuss the private lives of others BY NAME here on the blog. Hmmmmm. Very interesting. Maybe there could be a discussion about the stuff that happened to you? I for one am very curious about your side of the story. I mean, it just bothers me! I want to find the truth! I wonder if I am the only one bothered by this.....I wonder if what I remember is correct???

Try that on for size, bbgae!!


So, bbgae, if you are not the judge, then who is posting under your name??? I would be p****d if I were you! They are making you look like an idiot!

bbgae said...

1:57 &2:02-
THE ONLY reason I was bothered about MY name was becasue it might hurt my still faithfull FLDS family members. But it is too late for that now.

Go ahead. Ask about what I did. Start a thread. I will tell you the whole sordid TRUTH 'from my side' as you put it. You can even call ne nasty names, if it will amke you feel better.....

Or.... you could wait until my book is published and read it.

I am not perfect. I am a sinner too.

If the administrator doesn't like my posts, I AM SURE he/she will delete them.

However- I will say if we discuss what happened with me WE HAD BETTER DISCUSS THE IMTIMATE DETAILS OF YOUR LIFE TOO!!!!!!

bbgae said...

I am just trying to understand what happened with 'Aunt' Leona.

I DID agree with Anon. that homosexuality was a sin.

I DID take back the incest thing. Did you not read the whole thread?

I NEVER said what happened here is a sin, or that I did not respect them, or that I did NOT feel kindly toward them. I AM NOT trying to smirch their good name. I AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING THAT BOTHERS ME!!!!!

BTW- HI! I REALLY like to argue with you. I am glad you are back! :)

fttc said...

I am not sure what part you assumed I meant that warren instigated. The other posters here have taken care of the name problem. Be more specific and I will be happy to respond.

As for Allen Steed; I had a high opinion of him at one time too. For you to say he would never beleive a lie was a bit shocking to me. He is one of the faithful followers of warren or at least was at one time. If that is not believing a lie what is it? I believe Allen was in a position to know much of the underpinnings of what was happening. He did nothing about it but follow and support.

ATAR_i said...

Let me weigh in here.

I did not go to the funeral, I've never met any of the interested parties. I know nothing more than what I've seen here.

At some time, here or in the afterlife, Rulon agreed to have his sister as his full wife. What did he think that entailed? Was it an attempt to protect his sister? Would this make her his celestial wife, so that despite no sexual contact here on earth - it would be expected in heaven? Or, is it merely for on earth?

I'm not sure any of us can say with assurity WHAT they were thinking when they decided this.

EVEN SO, it's definately morally ambiguous at the very least, but more weighted on the side of amoral.

So, if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt - who knows they might deserve it. But - you can't go cracker jacks on someone who calls it incest - because honestly - no matter how you slice it - you can come up with that conclusion just as easily.

A JEFFS said...

Atari
I have always thought you were a fair
person,Remember this is an ALLEGDED situation.ALL parties who know the facts are dead.ONLY Rulon and Leona know the true facts.

bbgae said...

Good Grief!

One would almost think you were ALL (except Atar who never was) STILL FAITHFULL FLDS to defend this (comlpletely unprovable 'story' because the people involved are dead) so very strongly that you attack me, and my character, and anyone who might agree with me, with great vengance for even DARING to metion it!

Are you REALLY willing to say it is ALL ok?

bbgae said...

As for Allen Steed, maybe I am still suffering from the remnants of faithfulness to assume he was so good.

BUT YOU STILL HAVEN"T PROVENWHY HE SAID WHAT HE SAID!OR WHY 'UNCLE' RULON LET HIM.

(When did Steed co. go under? Was there really a scandal?)

The little girl who used to sit quietly and believe anything she was told by her parents or the people in meetings IS GONE! They lied to me once too often. I will think WHAT I WANT TO THINK, AND CALL IT AS I SEE IT based on my own expierences and the conclusions I draw from them, (Just like every one of you do) unless you can bring me hard evidence to the contrary, then, AS YOU HAVE SEEN, I will agree.

A. Jeffs said...

BBGAE,I am not attacking you,that is some anon.I have no way of proving or disproving whether or not Grandfather and Aunt Leona were ever sealed.But neither really do you.I am not STILL FAITHFULL FLDS,So I care very little about "saving face"If it took place, I
say who cares?Stranger things have happened.I am only saying why are you bringing it up?

fttc said...

Don't feel too picked on bbgae.

I have not known that I was supporting anything but the truth here. I have stated several things that you admitted you did not take into account. I am trying to help you see this in the light of what it is. You have definately stated that you no longer believe the doctrines of the FLDS. It is not a surprise then that you see this as an atrocious act. It is however a doctrine that has roots in teachings clear back to Joseph Smith. The parties involved I am assuming acted on the faith that this is a true doctrine. If you reject the foundation you cannot expect to understand the rest of the building. I am not judging you. I am not trying to silence you. The sealing of these two if it took place, (which I doubt it did under Uncle Rulon's sanction) only pertained to the hereafter. Can you say without a doubt that you know how things are there? It is a matter of faith and different religions have a different view of how it will be. I thought perhaps you would understand it better with my comment about the teaching that we were all brothers and sisters in the spirit world. Do you not believe that?

bbgae said...

Yes. And, no.

I believe that all people are 'brothers and sisters' in that we all share the common fate of being human. I do not believe we are spirit brothers and sisters. (Becasue of my view on God.)

To me, this is just another thing that we were taught that we should not have been taught. ANOTHER deception.

I don't think it is right.

I don't like it.

Maybe I am alot more angry than I thought I was. Maybe I don't really have the right to be. I am willing to say that.

I am going away now for awhile do I will calm down.....:)

No. I cannot prove it. But what I CAN prove, I don't like! IT BUGS ME (How many times do I have to say that?)

bbgae said...

And.. You are completely right. I am NO ONE to say what I believe is any better or more right than what anyone else believes.

It doesn't matter.

bbgae said...

fttc- I will get back to you about that question you asked me where you asked me what you said that made me think that, later. :)

And no, atexas, you DID NOT attack me. I understand your position a little better, I think that the others'.

Anonymous said...

I dont know how this happened, but the following post was supposed post on this thread, but somehow it ended up on the Warren thread. It was in response to several of bbgae's posts, mostly on this thread.




Anonymous said...
bbgae; you did not say it was a SIN, you DID say it was "WRONG", which I thought was basically the same thing. My bad.

Ok, so now we can expect a post with your story in it? I know that will be very interesting. I believe you have a most intriguing past! I do not believe I said anything about "intimate details," but if you want to share, be my guest! In my opinion, if you are going to discuss a person's story, and ask for personal details about who married whom, and what they call each other, (grandfather, aunt, mother, etc) and how "honorable" a person (by name!) is and whether or not they would ever believe a "lie", etc, etc, etc, THEN...........(in my opinion!) you shouldn't get quite so fired up if someone wants to talk about YOU and your life in a public blog! Forgive me if I think that the rules should apply to you, too! But hey! Maybe I am wrong!Maybe someone did die and leave the blog to you! In that case, please accept my humble apologies!

3/27/2007 6:07 PM

Anonymous said...

Aw, shucks! So here I am, just teasing you a little, bbgae, and go and get all mad! You DID say that you like to argue, and now, gosh darn it, you go off and pout!
=(

bbgae said...

That sure as HELL was NOT teasing.

I did not say how long I would be gone, did I?

So....I will say again.

My story is in the 'WJ Mental Breakdown' thread. 2/21 @ 11:34. I did not say WHEN I would (in this case did) tell it.

Now it is your turn.

I DARE YOU TO TELL ANYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF.

Bet you won't! (Becasue you don't want to reveal anything about yourself. Hmmmm. I wonder why.)

WHY are you so worried about ME? Why do you care SO VERY MUCH what I think? WHY does my story matter to YOU? WHAT did I EVER do to you to make you want to try humiliating and hurting me at every turn? One might almost think you know me (and are trying to exact revenge?).

Sooo... the question is, who do I know who lives in a different time zone, who would be offended about what I said about Rulon and Leona (becasue they still consider themselves faithful?) who KNOWS me, and who knows my story?

Hmmm... let me think.....

ATAR_i said...

BB - I wasn't attacking you, I was addressing the person who got all upset that you called it incest. I think it's as reasonable to call it incest as it is to call it something less morally repugnant.

Sure, there might not be hard facts regarding any of it. But enough independent unrelated sources are saying the same thing (roughly) that it's probable that indeed something of that nature did happen. IMHO

bbgae said...

I'm sorry, atar. I know you weren't attacking me. I put you in the () which was supposed to mean you were not. :)

Thankyou.

Anonymous said...

You are sooooo fragile, little bb! Try not to let tender little self get so worked up by all the sarcasm! (smile)=) I you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen, darlin'! (wink, wink) After all, you are the one that turned on the stove in this case, my dear! If the shoe fits, wear it! If not, then ignore it! Problem solved!

bbgae said...

I am by no means fragile. And if you were being sarcastic, I am a bird.

Yes. This thread was absolutely my doing and I got myself into it. Do you see me backing down?

BUT... I am not responsible for what OTHERRS post. DON"T YOU DARE TRY TO BLAME YOUR OWN MEANNESS ON ME! It might have worked when I knew you, but not anymore!

Atar- If anyone came close to seeing things the way I did here, it was you. The only reason I went 'off' like that was becasue from what I saw- you sat back and read BOTH sides of the posts and then drew your OWN LOGICAL conclusions. But becasue of your post atexas then called you an unfair person. (Because you didn't see it HER way?)
I was just trying to defend you because I like you. :)

ATAR_i said...

11:34 - can you give yourself a sig of some sort - pretty please. Even if it's an acronym at the bottom of your type.

Tell us about yourself, just the basics, how did you get here, how long have you been here, are you XLFDS, LDS, FLDS, NFLDS?

BB I thought so, but I wanted to confirm, sometimes what I read, and what others post can be completely different. I interpret writings with my own filters if there is any room for ambiguity.

This topic is way more personal to you than to me, because these individuals are all fairly nebulous to me. For you they were friends, or neighbors, even family. I would be up in someone's grill if it was my life, and my story on this board. It's easier for me to be emotionally detatched.

I know how hard this must be for you, but, probably helpful, even the prickly banter, as it helps you sift through feelings and emotions, with people challenging perceptions and ideas. It must be an amazing experience.

bbgae said...

Fttc-
Ok. You said: I'm not sure what part you assumed I meant that Warren instigated.
I thought you were saying you thought this whole thing was all Warren's doing. That he taught it when it didn't happen, or he got 'Uncle' Rulon and 'Aunt' Leona to say the words Allen Steed repeated for his own hidden purposes and therefore, they were irrelivant. This is why:
In your first post on this thread 3/24 @ 11:46 you said, If I am right this is just another of the extremely wierd teachings comming from the Warren crowd. One that I thought would wake up some people. Then, in your 3/25 @ 4:00 post you said, You stated and clarified my belief that this happened after Uncle Rulon was incapacitated. What did you mean?

You are completely right that I am seeing this from a different foundation. Maybe, that is the problem. Some of you have assumed that I did not understand, or know, or hadn't heard the teachings that justified this. YOU ARE SO WRONG! I have heard it all. Except for the name thing which was clarified, and I THANKED them for it. I DO see things from your view point. I think yours, and etexas', and a few others are similar foundations as the FLDS foundation. BUT DO YOU SEE MY VEIW, FROM MY FOUNDATION? I know exactly the view from your side. I have it memorized. But I am over here now, and the building lookes crooked to me. (And please forgive me, but it is one of my pet peeves to have someone assume I was not 'taught' correctly, and therefore, don't understand.) If you want me to listen better, try talking to me without your foundation?

To All: If I had known etexas was here, and that this thread and these posts would hurt her, I ASSURE YOU, I would NEVER have posted it in the first place. I allready appologized to her for this. Back off, ok?

I am also willing to say it is entirely possible she is right in this isssue.

Don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message. I am not the only one saying this. The reason I brought it up now, was because of you and this blog; I have finally found someone I can talk to about this.

Oh, and last night I was thinking and I had an epiphany. I know why this subject bugs me so very much, now . And, I have you, etexas, and YOU, grouchy, prickly, Anon to thank for it, becasue you got me thinking. So, thankyou! :)(You are right, Atar.)

It bugs me becasue I have a brother and a sister who really did commit incest. And I was falsely accused of the same thing. And it didn't matter to my accusers that there was no proof, and it didn't matter, if I tried to explain, and it didn't matter if I denied or confirmed what they thought, becasue in thier minds, I was allready guilty, and I was duely punished for it.

I have never said IF any of this were true, which can't be proven, that God would not forgive them, did I? If you really want to know, I still think very fondly of Uncle rulon. And I remember Aunt Leona's smiles. She had a beautiful smile.

Anonymous said...

bb; you really hit the nail on the head there. The fact is, I DONT care about your story. I DO care how you get pi**y about "the rules on this blog" and then proceed to change them to suit yourself! I am talking about naming names and stating hearsay as if it were 100% fact, and not your OPINION!! Granted, you have said IMO once or twice, but a lurker with no other info about the people you write about would have a very screwed up idea of events and people that may or may not even have occured! HOWEVER....if someone were to do that to YOU, then what??? IT SEEMS TO ME that if too many questions get asked (grouchy or not) calling you to account for your "facts" you fly off the handle. HMMmmmmmmm. THIS IS JUST MY OWN OBSERVATION NOW, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?????? And, I ALSO FEEL, that you are taking a lot of this personal, when the intention is not about you at all!!

So, that fact is, THERE ARE THINGS THAT BUG THE H**L OUT OF YOU!! So What? Does that make them 100% true??? The fact is, THERE ARE THINGS THAT BUG THE H**L OUT OF ME, TOO! LIKE YOUR APPROACH, FOR ONE! So what is the difference between my posting my OPINION, and you posting yours? Maybe you could work on YOUR approach, like you ask me to work on MINE! I would concede to that.

Your OPINION is that I am grouchy! Well, mine is that you are, well, (I wont use the exact word,) but touchy works. So maybe if you stop stating your OPINIONS as if they were cold hard facts I won't feel so motivated to point out the obvious.



Atar_i; The truth is, I HATE labels. FLDS, LDS, LSD, MAD, ........it all just puts people into little boxes. Who needs it? IN MY OPINION that is part of bb's problem. I THINK she is wearing too many lables. That is just way too much work for me. But, if you must know, I HAVE had the experience of living life in CC., yes under the "auspices" of Warren Jeffs. And thank God, (bless her heart!) (it's a JOKE!!!!!) I now enjoy life elsewhere! Does that answer your questions?

"Grouchy Anon" >:(

Hey that's kinda cute! I like it!

fttc said...

bbgae

Uncle Rulon had a stroke in 1988 that left him incapacitated. He told me this himself. It was after this time that it came out about the 'sealing' of his sister to himself. I don't believe that Uncle Rulon knew a lot of what was going on around him after his stroke. I don't beleive he would have allowed his sister to be sealed to him in this life. He may have said she could be in the next but it would have to be done later after death. It would go against the teachings of this doctrine. If this sealing took place as allegedly stated by Allen Steed then it was warren's doing. This is what I meant.

As you may have noticed I have not given up the tenets of Mormonism. Probably never will. There have been many men that have twisted and reshaped the gospel as restored through JS. It is my firm beleif that if you go back to the fundamentals of his teachings and the scriptures (BOM, Bible etc.) that the problems that have arisen will be solved by application of the principles there enunciated.

And yes I think I can see things from your perspective and I respect you in that. We each have to do the best we can with the experience and knowledge that we have. I don't think you are a worse person than myself because of your perspective. I haven't seen that you are bitter about anything. Your comments about U. Rulon and Aunt Leona prove that to a degree. I have enjoyed the discussion and have only sought to present my perspective. I am not in a position to know what really happened.

Anonymous said...

Sealing.

How does the FLDS seal individuals if they did not have a temple? ]


Anyway, what is the problem. Joseph Smith sealed other men wives to himself.

Also, didn't men seal men to themselves also.

What is the definition of a sealing?

Curious George

fttc said...

Curious

John Taylor was quite explicit in explaing that Celestial Marriage sealing did not have to take place in a temple if the parties living. He said this in a court of law under oath. It is a matter of public record.

Can you produce the evidence that JS sealed other men's wives to himself? Is it hearsay or real evidence? I would ask the same question of the men to men sealing.

Anonymous said...

It makes no diff. WHO posts on this blog!! Each person INCLUDING MYSELF writes a post according to our/their OWN opinions. Therefor...everyone that is reading this has to for their own sake of mind; take each post they read as TRUTH...LIES...OPINIONS...GRAIN OF SALT...ECT... (think you get my point).

Anonymous said...

Joseph Smith did marry some women that were widowed. But they were only married for TIME (until death) not ETERNITY (forever). Unless it was revealed to him that the Man/Men that were previously these Womens Husbands... were no longer worthy of them...because of something they had done...committed...ect.

As fas as I know, I don't remember reading where any of there women that He took on as wives (previously married to other men) were ever sealed to him for time and all eternity... though I could just not be aware of it.

But all in all it really makes no difference anyway...it is really non of my business anyway...

Anonymous said...

fttc; Grouchy Anon, here. =D Just thought I would put in my "two bits". Thank you for putting your thoughts out in such a gentle way, while at the same time LETTING US KNOW THAT IT IS STRICTLY YOUR PERSPECTIVE!

See, I am too a nice person! Admit it! You like me, bb!! I make you think! A little verbal jousting never killed anybody. MMMuuuuuaaaahhhhh!!! (pseudo evil laugh..) >=O

OR......

... Mmmmmmwaaaaahhhh!!! it could be that I just KISSED you!! >=* It is all in your perspective! You pick!



Grouchy Anon >=(

bbgae said...

Yes, D. (Grouchy Anon.)
I DO LIKE YOU!
I especially LOVE the evil laugh LOL.

And...you are completely right. I should have put "It was my understanding" at the very first of my very first post on this thread, to clear up alot of the comfusion. But, I am only human.

Thankyou, BTW, for your honest answers. I WILL work on my approach.

BUT, I also agree with 1:15-
We shouldn't ALL have to put IMO at the begining of EVERY post wherin we don't quote hard evidence. Take each post for what you will, based on your expierences, and ask if you feel you don't fully understand. (Which I think you allready did, but we are over that now.)

Yes, I am touchy. I will try not to be so touchy. But can you see why I went postal on you when I had been falsly assused, and it almost seemed like you were trying to get me to admit something about myself? (I assumed guilt, or sin?)

I will say in reguards to the rules, IMHO There is a difference here becasue, Rulon and Leona are DEAD. To me, that makes a difference. Their death acually works in their favor, becasue all of this cannot be proven, (they aren't here to ask) and therefore, there is room for doubt. They cannnot be hurt by this, becasue they are DEAD. But, their posterity, can, and to them, I once again appologize.

FTTC-
I completely agree with you. I don't think Uncle Rulon would have allowed any sealing to take place. Furnace's post jogged my memory, and I am grateful to him for it. I agree with his post, too.

Thankyou, for trying to understand me. :)

bbgae said...

Curious George-
The sealing of man to man that you have referred to is, although the same word, a COMPLETELY different thing than the sealing between a man and a woman that means marriage.

There IS a sealing of a man to man, it happens when he recieves his preisthood. All it is, is a promise to obey God. (I think, correct me if I am wrong, fttc.)

This is because the belief is that an unbroken line of priesthood MUST extend to all reaches of humanity before the end of time and the resurection. It is the power of the priesthood that RESURECTS the dead to meet their maker. This means that the children must be 'sealed' to thier fathers in all generations so they can be resurected in the first reserection.

God resurects the prophet, who in turn resurects his sons, who resurect their wives and thier sons, who resurect thier wives and their sons ect. ect. And then all are brought before God for judgement.

bbgae said...

D-
Why do you think I wear too many labels? What labels do you see?

Anonymous said...

D?? I am sooo dissapointed=( I thought you JUST might sorta know who I am, but it's ok that you don't. You can call me D if you want. But personally I have grown rather fond of Grouchy Anon. >=D

Anonymous said...

OH! Now I get it! You thought the D was my initials! LOL!! The D is a wide-mouth grin!!! See...=D

Can you see it now? You are so cute!


(but don't forget I am still Grouchy Anon!! =D )

Anonymous said...

So, now I better explain the > sign, too. It is my grouchy eyebrows over my eyes...see...

>:( grouchy face!! Like Oscar the Grouch!

bbgae said...

Yes. I thought the =D was an equals, 'D'.
(Meaning that was how you signed.)

I will call you Grouchy Anon, if you like. I think I was the first to call you this...:)

You make a cute Oscar, think.

So....What are my labels?

bbgae said...

I meant, "I think."

bbgae said...

And, I did understand about the >. which I also think is cute.

bbgae said...

Grouchy anon,
I will (at the risk of renewing our fight, which I don't want to do, so take me at my word, THIS TIME), say even if you did not agree with my choice of words you had no right to put me through that emotional torture like you did last night. You knew EXACTALLY what you were doing.

You are not my boss, my moral judge, or my mom.

And even if you disagree with me and my view point, and what I post, it is not your right to punish me for what you think I did that was wrong!

Pretty please, tell me anout the labels you think I use and/or go under. I'm dying of curiosity, here.

Anonymous said...

HellOOOOOOOO!!! I am shaking my (grouchy) head, here!! First you tell me that I don't have the right to judge you, & I'm not your mom, (how do you know?) and that I put you through emotional torture, (you didn't HAVE to go through it!! You CHOSE to!I would have been laughing had the posts been the other way around!) and now you want me to tell you the LABELS that I think you wear???

I think you LIKE to go the rounds with me! There was absolutely NO intent whatsoever of punishment in any of my posts, so now.....you are begging pretty please???? Tell me, WHO is the punisher here?

bbgae said...

Grouchy Anon-
I KNOW you are not my MOTHER.

Don't give me that choice bull-sh**. I had about as much choice as I did in who I married- ziltch.

YOU DID. YOU KNOW it. and I KNOW it. And if you want me to prove it, fttc even told you and so did Atar on the other thread.

Your little ploys for cuteness, denial, name calling, and reverse blame DO NOT WORK HERE.

You will NOT walk all over me again!

HOW do you KNOW that I would be laughing? PROVE IT! PROVE what I have EVEN done to purposefully hurt YOU. I DARE you!

I didn't. Not even when I knew you. I took all your crap, and didn't say a word.

bbgae said...

Grouchy Anon-
From now on, I am going to skip over all of your posts. Blog away! (I have my virtual fingers in my ears, and I am no longer listening.)

TO ALL:
Sorry, guys, about the long, drawn-out argument I participated in just bearly. i am done now.

Anybody have anything to say about the topic of the title? :)

Jeffs said...

BB,Please stop argueing with that fool.
HE/SHE/IT will keep it up as long as long as they see they are bothering you.Just ignore it.

CHRH said...

Wow, just wow. Whoever you are Anon you deserve an asswhooping at my hands, unless of course you're a woman, but I can't imagine a woman being that cold-hearted. Bbgae, I have just given you a ticket for a free asswhooping, good for whomever you choose, done by me.

bbgae said...

Jeffs
I absolutely will! See my virtual ear plugs?(< >)I am done now.

chrh-Thanx! :)

ATAR_i said...

Grouchy, you're gonna hate this question even more (yanno - the label thing), but are you male or female?

BTW - this conversation was absolutely lovely to read. If you go back a few years, I spent a lot of time sputtering and spewing on this blog. But, it was time well spent. I really learned about myself, I changed and my ideas changed.

Even though this interchange has brought you to wits end, it's been absolutely fascinating to watch the communication and thought processes.

I hope neither of you feel negative about it - it's totally livened up the blog. Two very passionate, intelligent, articulate posters - NICE!

Anonymous said...

LOL!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!! bb; Take your virtual fingers out! I am SORRY I p***ed you off! I WAS JOKING!!!! You are so predictable, and with all those virtual buttons hanging out there to push, I just couldn't help my grouchy self >:(

BB; please re-read that last post! I said IF YOU were the one that had posted the things to ME that I had posted to YOU, I would have been laughing at YOUR posts to me!!!

chrh; who's your daddy??? Huh? c'mon bring it on!


Why, thank you, Atar_i! I personally think it is much more interesting, too. Thank you for the compliment of not knowing whether or not I am male/female. I would think it is obvious! Mmmmmmuuuuuuaaaahhhh! (pseudo evil laugh)

So let's take a poll....who thinks these posts are male or female? And what about them makes you think that? This oughta be good!

Anonymous said...

fttc:
Do a google search for the wives of Joseph Smith to find out about his sealings to married women (whose husbands were still living). It has been a while since I researched the issue, but if you check out sites referencing early journals, etc. you will find these claims. Try browsing through the Christian sites that are anti-mormon. These will give you names and references that you can then research further to see for yourself if the accusations mean anything to you.

ATAR_i said...

Personally - your writing style is female - and I think you're female. But you're bold, and someone mentioned they thought you were a man.

So - I decided I'd just ask.

fttc said...

Anon 1:00

Been there done that. I haven't seen substantial evidence above hearsay from anti-mormons that anything immoral or took place. There is no evidence that Joseph sealed married women to himself and treated them as wives. Frankly I have found the 'christian' anti-mormon sites the most humorous in their attempt at pinning this on JS.

bbgae said...

chrh- Where are you from? What's your background, or your religious background? Is there anything about yourself you might feel like sharing?

bbgae said...

So, I will give a rundown of the basic facts of the title subject as I see them:

I.Alan Steed gave a talk after Aunt Leona died wherein he told a conversation between Uncle Rulon, and Aunt Leona.
A. This has been verified by several witnesses.
B. One of the witnesses was Uncle Rulon.
a.Uncle Rulon may or may not have been incapacitated at the time. This cannot be proven.
b. Uncle Rulon did not correct any details of the converstaion that anyone has said, so far.
1. This does not prove that he did not correct it.
2. This does not mean that someone might yet say they heard it WAS corrected.
C. The character of Allen Steed and the reasons behind his talk are up for interpritation.
D. No one can prove the words spoken by Allen Steed were true.
E. No one can prove that they were untrue.
F. No one can prove the exact meaning of the words because the parties reported to have said them are dead.
II.Tangable results of said talk:
A. Allreds, and Barlows considering themselves and being considered as 'Jeffs'.
a. Lot signs with 'Jeffs' on it.
b. Allreds and Barlows referring to Uncle Rulon as Grandfather.
1. It is likely any refference of this manner BEFORE and/or AFTER Aunt Leona died was only meant as a symbol of respect.
2. It is possible it might not have been meant as only a symbol of respect after her death.
B. The conversation on this blog on said subject and/or any physical material on said subject.
III. Unseen results of said talk:
A. No one can prove what happened/ happenes after death, so whether or not the words spoken by Allen Steed transpired is up for interpritation.
B. It is logical to say, "Nothing happened, no harm done."
C. It is also logical to say, "Some things in this are not quite right."

bbgae said...

BTW- the clearing up of the name thing really helped me. Thanx, guys! :)

And, thankyou to all. You rock!

fttc said...

bbgae

That was cute! It is not often that a topic so hotly debated ends with a summation like that. You make it too easy to smile shake hands and move on.

e.texas said...

Off-topic splashes aside, I want to express my appreciation for the clarifications from sincere contributors here.

May this subject, my Father and Aunt Leona rest in peace.


One last thought - somthing I once saw on a bumper sticker:

"What wisdom can you find that is greater than kindness?"

Elaine nee Jeffs

Anonymous said...

Elaine may I contact you by e-mail?
I think we are cousins,

e.texas said...

My email address is:
e.texas@gmail.com

Elaine

bbgae said...

Yes, Elaine,
They will. All of them.

Anonymous said...

gElaine, what does the "nee" stand for, and why is it not capitalized? (Or am I just showing my lack of education here...)

Anonymous said...

OOps, my keyboard is weird... the g just popped up, no disrespect meant!!

e.texas said...

(I'm chuckling)
Anonymous 3:44, I guess it's the ol' English teacher coming out in me.

"née" literally means 'born' - therefore indicating the maiden or family name of a married woman.

Y'all wouldn't know me by my married name, and I wanted to be very clear in my postings here.

e.texas said...

Oh! And it's never capitalized.

Elaine

fttc said...

Elaine

Thanks for the English lesson. I learned something.

bbgae said...

Just to clear things up...
I just re-read the last excahnge, and my last post seemed aa little wierd.
Elain said:May this subject, my father and aunt Leona rest in peace.

I was agreeing with her that I thought they will rest in peace (heaven). They all will.

bbgae said...

And... the "all will," meant I will drop the subject. :)

Anonymous said...

god does not exist.