Sunday, October 29, 2006

WJ Tape Released

Warren Jeffs released tape to the faithful that says he is treated well by the prison guards and to pray for them. He says he was locked up in jail for his own protection. God has a hand over all. God will let him go when he is safe.

However only the men are allowed to listen to the tape and only if there are no current rumors about them and they are sworn to secretcy to not even tell their wives about it.

120 comments:

ATAR_i said...

When was the tape released?

Anonymous said...

Isn't that special!

Whoops someone spilled the beans....this proves men are bigger gossips than their counterparts.

Maybe Warren should of given it to the women to share and not tell the men?

Anonymous said...

So if it such a secret, how did you find out about it? Must not be very many "faithful" secret-keepers out there any more.

Funny that Warren can twist even his demise into "god is protecting me" crap.

Can't wait to see what happens when he is sentenced.

The_Nephite said...

Warren Jeffs is very kind man, such as all FLDS-Church people. I deem that prison guards do feel his good influence. The FLDS-Church does not claim hate. It proclaims the love for all people. Warren Jeffs does not hate anybody, but loves all. FLDS people do reject the USA laws much. I hope after a period of time the government will recognize it. I hope also that officials will follow law in case of Warren Jeffs also.

The_Nephite said...

I want to do clear a point that "FLDS do reject the USA laws much". It was about the anti-American, anti-Constitutional modern law system. Yes, I hope that the government will recognize that a lot of modern laws and edicts are absolutely against the great USA Constitution. FLDS absolutely do follow the laws about marriage, taxes, education and etc. But how can people follow the laws which laws are against the religious rights and liberty?

The_Nephite said...

Republicans do fight much for the future elections for the USA President. I do consider President George W. Bush to be a good man. It will be a great thing if President Bush and Republicans will destroy the anti-Constitutional laws and will give freedom for the FLDS and for Warren Jeffs. After that a lot of people will support Republican as the genuine "old Americans".

Anonymous said...

Actually Warren Jeffs and FLDS are greatest American patriots and very good citizens. I believe that George Washington will be proud to work with the FLDS.

Anonymous said...

George Washington who owned slaves?

ATAR_i said...

I'd be tickled pink if I got to be warrens guard. No joke. He'd be easy to manage, I wouldn't worry about nasty comments or spit - I'm sure he's a very pleasant inmate.

Plus, there'd be the added bonus of getting to see these very secretive people up close - and not on their turf.

The_Nephite said...

I do not believe FLDS Church to be a "secret society". They are a religious group recognized by Constitutional and federal laws. The FLDS Church works for the religious purposes only. I hope much that the federals will stop the current absolutely false prosecution against the FLDS Church. I hope that the courts will understand the origin of the great USA Constitution. Once again, Warren Jeffs and FLDS do not sow the hate; they sow the love only.

The_Nephite said...

If United State of America wants to continue to build the democratic civil society, it must "enjoy diversity". It must give a freedom for the FLDS-Church also. People must obey the Constitution and the Bill about Rights.

Fredonia Friend said...

the_nephite:

Neither the FLDS religion or celestial marriage is under attack here. It's the abuses that have occurred and continue to occur that concern those of us outside the community.

ATAR_i said...

I am not aware of a suit agains the FLDS church, only individuals.

With freedom comes responsibility.

In this country you are free to purchase and own a home. But, you have to make the payments, or the home get's taken away.

In this country you are free to marry any one you want, but they have to be a certain age, and if they aren't there are consequences for that too.

Make sense?

Anonymous said...

FYI Atar_i- Published in several newspapers.

SUMMONS BY PUBLICATION
CALLISTER NEBEKER & McCULLOUGH
JEFFREY L. SHIELDS (2947)
MARK L. CALLISTER (6709)
ZACHARY T. SHIELDS (6031)
MICHAEL D. STANGER (10406)
Gateway Tower East, Suite 900
10 East South Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84133
Telephone: (801) 530-7300
Attorneys for Plaintiff Bruce R. Wisan, as the Court-Appointed
Special Fiduciary of the United Effort Plan Trust
IN THE THIRD JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF SALT LAKE COUNTY
STATE OF UTAH
BRUCE R. WISAN, as the Court-Appointed Special Fiduciary of the United Effort Plan Trust,Plaintiff,vs.WARREN S. JEFFS; TRUMAN I. BARLOW; LEROY S. JEFFS; JAMES K. ZITTING; WILLIAM E. JESSOP a/k/a WILLIAM E. TIMPSON; CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS; CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDING BISHOP OF THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS; and THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, Defendants. SUMMONS BY PUBLICATION Civil No. 060908716 Judge Tyrone E. Medley

THE STATE OF UTAH TO THE FOLLOWING NAMED DEFENDANTS:
(1)WARREN S. JEFFS;
(2)TRUMAN I. BARLOW;
(3)JAMES K. ZITTING;
(4)WILLIAM E. JESSOP A/K/A/ WILLIAM E. TIMPSON;
(5)CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS;
(6)CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDING BISHOP OF THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS; AND
(7)THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.
Pursuant to the ORDER GRANTING EX PARTE MOTION FOR SUBSTITUTE SERVICE entered by the Honorable Tyrone E. Medley on August 29, 2006, you are hereby summoned and required to file an answer in writing to the Complaint on file in the above numbered action (AComplaint) with the Clerk of the above-entitled Court at 450 South State Street, P.O. Box 1860, Salt Lake City, Utah 84114 within thirty (30) days after the last date of publication of this Summons, and to serve by mail or hand-delivery a copy of your answer to:
CALLISTER NEBEKER & McCULLOUGH
Jeffrey L. Shields
Mark L. Callister
Zachary T. Shields
Gateway Tower East, Suite 900
10 East South Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84133
Telephone: 801-530-7300
Facsimile: 801-364-9127
E-mail: jlshields@cnmlaw.com
If you fail to do so, judgment by default will be taken against you for the relief demanded in the Complaint. To obtain a copy of the Complaint please request a copy from attorney Jeffrey L. Shields at the law firm of Callister Nebeker & McCullough at the address, telephone number, facsimile number, and/or e-mail address listed above.
Dated: August 30, 2006
CALLISTER NEBEKER & McCULLOUGH JEFFREY L. SHIELDS/s/
Jeffrey L. Shields JEFFREY L. SHIELDS Attorneys for Plaintiff
Bruce R.Wisan, as the Court-Appointed Special Fiduciary of the United Effort Plan Trust

ATAR_i said...

I stand corrected.

red rocks girl said...

if the flds are all about love, why are some of their younger members vandalizing the park?
can you answer that?

fttc said...

nephite

Are you by any chance from Russia?

onthestreet said...

THE NEPHITE Said:
I hope that the courts will understand the origin of the great USA Constitution. Once again, Warren Jeffs and FLDS do not sow the hate; they sow the love only.
10/30/2006 6:51 PM

STREET's Reply: "The U.S. Constitution shall hang by a thread", said an old prophet. The Prophet Warren Jeffs is that thread.

onthestreet said...

red rocks girl said...
if the flds are all about love, why are some of their younger members vandalizing the park?
can you answer that?
10/30/2006 9:14 PM

STREET's Reply: Ahh yes, if the USA is all about freedom, why do we have jails? Such a predicament! Who to blame for what?

onthestreet said...

Anonymous said...
George Washington who owned slaves? 10/30/2006 4:26 PM

STREET's Reply: General Washington is the kindest of slave-owners, even today. He has many under him born to serve, as many in the Celestial Kingdom can only serve, not rule.

Anonymous said...

I thought this thread might be a stimulating conversation until STREET stepped in. So I just skipped over his posts.

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah? Check out what he said on the "True Measure of a Man" thread:

Street said:
"...If I am a bit blunt or burlesque, bland for yaal’s taste, brush your teeth. You will forgive me, you being squashy-Christian (or is it quasi)? My father, Uncle Rulon, is well-known for his honesty and bluntness, so some of it has worn of onto me. The Prophet Warren is my great brother. "

That's pretty interesting, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

"I'd be tickled pink if I got to be warrens guard. No joke. He'd be easy to manage, I wouldn't worry about nasty comments or spit - I'm sure he's a very pleasant inmate"

Atar-i, Judgeing from the way you tend to believe all the rumors, that would probably be dangerous for a gullable person like you. He could convert you.

Anonymous said...

Street means that Rulon is his "priesthood father" and Warren is his "priesthood brother" which is what has always been taught over the pulpit to both the LDS and the FLDS. Havent you seen the nametags on the Mormon missionaries that say "sister so&so" etc....? They call each other brother or sister so & so, etc.


OTS is just trying to throw everyone off the idea that he is Val Jessop because Mugsey has been trying to nail him down about his family. How many times has street lied about his identity or said things about himself that contradict? Val, the jig is up!

ATAR_i said...

I have a fairly reliable source that states it is definately not Val.

Anonymous said...

Val lives a lie, for he is all lies and deception. He appears to the outside as kind and wise, but what he truly does is evil. Look what he is doing to his children and second wife, Laurene. Controling them with fear and lies.
Educating them in ignorance and paranoia.

Anonymous said...

"STREET's Reply: Ahh yes, if the USA is all about freedom, why do we have jails? Such a predicament! Who to blame for what?"

If the Lord is love, why is there hell?

Anonymous said...

why do you think there is hell? You make it!

Anonymous said...

You have to understand Anon 4:37 that Morons, I mean Mormons, don't believe in Hell. It's too outlandish. Becoming gods on other planets, however, that's just common sense. Besides Joseph Smith said so.

onthestreet said...

Oh, the true Mormon does indeed believe in Hell, for Christ Himself (the ultimate Mormon, what the Jews considered a Moron), descend there, like the FLDS faithful are now doing here, before He ascended unto the Father.

John Lennon said...

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Anonymous said...

OK, Street now the FLDS faithful are living in Hell now. Interesting.

Anonymous said...

Street,

You have confused me; so what is hell? I thought it was a physical and spiritual state brought about by ones own actions. Are you saying our Savior's actions while on earth or after he was crucified put him in a condition similar to that of liars, cheaters, adulteres, thiefs etc?

The flds gospel according to street gets more interesting everyday.

onthestreet said...

Nay. This is why He was able to set the captives free, He Himself being free and almighty. This is the very purpose of His going there, and the FLDS purpose for being here.

Anonymous said...

Oh, Street
What is the purpose of the FLDS being here on earth?

All I see is a closed society, that are scared of their shadow of a man they call a prophet.

pligchild said...

This thread made me laugh. rumor and her rumors Thanks for the nonsense!

john lennon, if there is no heaven then death is the end, that doesnt sound very good at all. Without religion there is no real peace, just Amorality, immorality, and anarchy (drugs, sex, and rock and roll). So no I wont join you. :-)

The FLDS believe that we are in as much of hell now as there ever will be. So those sent to hell, are those who will be ressurected to the Telestial heaven. The earth is now in a Telestial condition. So it only goes up from here!
I explain it all here

ATAR_i said...

So there is no tape?

warren would never put himself on tape would he? Especially if he was in jail, and couldn't talk to everyone.

That's just a silly idea.

A ridiculous idea.

Oh, BTW - whomever has the tape - I'd love to hear it.

feralfem said...

"Oh, BTW - whomever has the tape - I'd love to hear it."

Ditto!

pligchild said...

Me THREE!

I hope there is a tape, but Warren would never say "keep it a secret from your wives". That is what made me laugh.

Anonymous said...

Pligchild great site you have there.

But I have a question. Explain what justifies the FLDS lying to the gentiles.

Also Brigham Young was a little confused about Adam/God.
He is the one who brought this teaching to the attention of the saints.

The mainline LDS cannot justify why Young spoke about it at times. So they just wave it off.

If Mr. Young was a prophet why did he waffle on such an important teaching.

And why did the FLDS choose this Adam/God doctrine, did Joseph Smith teach it?

Also do you believe Michael is an Archangel also besides being Adam.
I am sorry, angel, man or God? Which is it?

And God had a body, well, I guess Mary did not have a virgin birth, right? So much for miracles.

Why would you want to follow a God who was a man in some other life.

Adam was so smart to name all those animals,creat this world, bring one of his wives Eve from his planet and in the meantime fell for brother,angel,god Lucifer's prank.

Waiting for some clarifications.

Anonymous said...

Let's just have him clarify why he is so afraid that it is read-only. Maybe someone should start a thread here "pligchild rebuttals"

Anonymous said...

Warren told a group of eleven of us to keep a silly rock cutting saw secret from our wives or his life would be in danger.

ATAR_i said...

plig kid - are you married?

If you aren't how would you know what warren tells husbands?

onthestreet said...

NONNYI SAID:

1. I am sorry, angel, man or God? Which is it?

2. And God had a body, well, I guess Mary did not have a virgin birth, right? So much for miracles.

3. Why would you want to follow a God who was a man in some other life.

4. Adam was so smart to name all those animals,creat this world, bring one of his wives Eve from his planet and in the meantime fell for brother,angel,god Lucifer's prank.

Waiting for some clarifications.
11/01/2006 3:07 PM


STREET's Reply:
1.I’m sorry, father, brother, son, which are you? Mother, sister, daughter, which one. Impossible to have all three, right? I mean, nobody, and I mean nobody on this planet, nor in the heavens, is a parent, sibling, and also someone’s progeny. Just can’t happen, can it.

2.What! Miracles cannot affect the physical element? “If ye have faith so much as a mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, be ye plucked up and planted in the depths of the sea, and it shall be so”. Adam, Michael, God, as a mountain, plucked Himself up and planted in the depths of her sea.

3.Why do YOU, my friend, follow mere men and women around like you were their lap dog? Have you ever followed a man, an father, an employer, a women, anywhere? Is not God your Father, and your Elder Brother Jesus Christ so frequently referred to Him, and Jesus was a man was He not, and not just in some other life but right here and now. Why indeed would you want to follow THAT!

4.Christ too, was sooooo smart, yet in the meantime He fell, took on a body, and then fell again under the burden of the Cross. He must have been sooooo stupid, right?

ATAR_i said...

You might want to cool it on the Christ examples OTS - firstly - most won't agree with the premise thus the conclusion will not logically follow.

onthestreet said...

There you go, sister. That's the very point: Nonny might truly want to "cool it" belittling the very God of Heaven like that (Waiting for some clarifications: 11/01/2006 3:07 PM), not actually knowing Him, in His body, soul, and spirit, or His purpose in becoming a fallen man Himself, so that He would be truly just in telling fallen man: "Follow Me".

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Warren told a group of eleven of us to keep a silly rock cutting saw secret from our wives or his life would be in danger.


Very, very funny!

Anonymous said...

Why yes street, why can't I be a mother, and a sister and a daughter all at once. What are you talking about.

I can't be a father, brother or son, though. I don't have the right equipment.

Anonymous said...

Way off the subject, but it shows how rumors get started.

When I showed up for work, I learned that a jetliner landed on a taxiway instead of a runway last night and it clipped the wing of another jet.

When I got on the internet and hunted down the news stories, there were two distinct stories. The wing clipping was an entirely different incident. The taxiway landing did no damage to the aircraft.

I wonder how many stories coming from the FLDS get a little distorted like this.

Anonymous said...

Street why would I want to follow a fallen man or for that fact a fallen god.

And how would you know I was belittling God. Who made you judge and jury?

Jesus was tempted and did not fall for the temptations, Lucifer dished out.

Street can you not grasp what God did for mankind. God came to earth as a physical man and died, spilling HIS PERFECT SINLESS BLOOD which was THE perfect sacrifice.

He did it for mankind so man would not taste eternal death in the LAKE OF FIRE RESERVED FOR SATAN AND HIS ANGELS, IT IS CALL HELL.

Your godS and jesus are too complicated, by satan's design.

pligchild said...

I thank you all for the enjoyment I have gotten from reading this thread. I would be glad to converse, discuss, or even perhaps argue the tenets of my faith, because criticism, if not inflammatory can help us understand a little better. I just dont want to do it on my blog because there are people who actually listen my side of the story without wanting to condemn me.

To the poster who read my blog:

The only good reason to lie is to "agree with thine adversary" or persecutor.

Brigham Young was a prophet, but he was not God, he didn’t waffle, he just didn't explain it completely. Another prophet, Leroy S Johnson clarified what he meant. And yes, Joseph Smith taught it too. Adam is Michael, the creator of this His world with the help of His Father, He is the ancient of days, and the Archangel. Joseph Smith, at the age of fourteen saw two persons with bodies, The Father, Michael (Adam), and The Son Jesus (Jehovah).

In my faith the common misconception about Adam is the idea that the "fall" of Adam was a mistake; that it was not a good thing. Had he not "fallen" we would not exist. He and Eve “fell” from a Celestial condition to a Telestial condition, so that they could give Telestial bodies to their Celestial spirit children. They HAD to choose wrong and "sin" so that we would have life, free will (agency), but the consequence was death. Thus the need for the Atonement. The story in Genesis is not exactly literal, but somewhat like a parable.


"Why would you want to follow a God who was a man in some other life."

Why don’t you?

I want to follow my Father, who is also my God, by obedience to His Son, who is also my God, by gaining His Holy Spirit which is the Power of God. Then perhaps I can be one who shares in the inheritance of Jesus Christ the Son, and become an eternal son, and then learn how to be an eternal father. And I hope the same for you.

The question is why would you not want to become like God? Is there anything greater to hope for?

Is that more clear?

Check my blog in a while when I explore “The Holy Ghost”, “Seven days?”, and "Is God a Racist?"

muggsey said...

Forgive street. He is handicaped by the fact that fell in with a crowd of misguided and confused people from the very moment of birth and because of the brain???washing he has undergone through the passage of time, has no understanding of The Grace of God.

Of course that one little oversight will accompany him and his padded cell-mates right into the devil's arms, where, according to his rantings, he prefers to be.

Street, I'm still waiting for your answer, are you a father? Or, did your mother have any children that lived?

muggsey said...

pligchild

Joseph Smith had no visions. He had halucinations. His only interest in his "church?" was to pick their pocket. He had no revelation. He had no one to back up his claims except those who were said to have seen his magic plates "spiritually."

Why would GOD, in HIS DIVINE PERSON inspire scripture over the period from the writings of Moses through John on Patmos and then change ANYTHING? Why would PERFECTION change? Why would PERFECTION need to change? Smith's semi-literate plagerism of Spalding's writings and excepts taken directly from the King James Version of the Bible superceed that which was in place and attested to for 1800 + years? Why should the writings of the Gospels, the Epistles and Revelation be changed because one little side-show seer and charlton said he had a vision. The true scripture explains that GOD is a Spirit, that GOD has three purposes, omnipotence-omnicience-omnipresent, eternal sacrifice and communicator with man.

I won't even go to the Young-Johnson et. al despotic rule. A severe doubt and unanswerable question of the authority of Joseph Smith is more than you or any of your fellows can answer. Don't attempt to answer any question asked here by quoting from Mormon, D&C, Pearl or any other LDS or FLDS documents written to support Smith's claim.

The holes in Smith's fantasy are large enough to stuff the universe through.

Anonymous said...

Testy, testy, there mugs!!!

ATAR_i said...

Pligchild,

That would be one of the large differences between FLDS/LDS and Basic Judeo Christian beliefs.

Our belief is that God, was never man. He did not come to earth as Adam, as the man who physically impregnated Mary, the mother of Christ, or in the form of Joseph Smith.

We are not coming from the the same theological perspective - so some things we just won't agree on.

Because of your perspective that Elohim came down from his planet intentionally with one of his spirit wives to create and populate the human race with his spirit children from all of his polygamous wives on that planet - of course you will view the 'fall of man' different than I will.

I think explaining the theological differences is probably more productive than trying to bring us to a conclusion based on an underlying theology that we do not agree on.

ex creeker said...

Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Warren told a group of eleven of us to keep a silly rock cutting saw secret from our wives or his life would be in danger.


Very, very funny!

11/01/2006 8:25 PM

This goes to show the level of deception in the FLDS.

I would bet WJ would say "Don't tell your wives" Because he if anybody knows women talk.


Mugs-Street
Why don't you all start a new thread about JS-JC?
Just a thought.

Anonymous said...

Why not a dedicated thread for mugs-street just for verbal sparring? Once upon a time, we had a dedicated thread just for street.

Mugs--your tirades against Joseph Smith is very offensive, even to this anonymous non-mormon.

muggsey said...

FLDS -LDS

It is not my intention, nor has it ever been to "hurt your feelings." My posts and questions are based upon a theology long established before Smith's tale of divine messengers from space, contact with spiritual beings, and establishing a church upon writings supposedly scribbled on plates of gold in a language that only Smith could translate, and even then impossible without the aid of a carnival trick, a seer stone. Again, those supposed witnesses recanted their testemony regarding the seeing and handleing of said plates. Yet the subtrifuge goes on.

Though mormon scholars claim all sorts of archilogical finds supposedly supporting the dwelling of a Hebrew race of people in the western hemisphere there is absolutely no dna nor ruins that support the claim. All archilogical digs have discovered in these famous digs are the bones and instruments of those native Americans who preceeded our forefathers to these shores. None of the native Americans have dna that supporrts that any, I repeat ANY of these individuals came from the linage of Abraham. An examination of the physical similarities between native Americans and the Jew indicate there are none. The dna of native Americans indicate considerably more matches that would conclude an Asian ancestor than any Hebrew.

All I ask of you or any who get uncontrollably angry at my calling your hand is for you to prove me wrong. Since I believe the whole of Joseph Smith's revelation a sham I will not accept writings from Smith or anyone of the LDS -FLDS persuasion as proof.

Of course he and his followers are going to attempt to prove his myth. That is exactly why their writings are invalid for sake of proof.

If I was attempting to put forth a hoax as truth I would write and encourage my followers to write edicts that support the original hoax. The origins of mormon, pearl are extremely questionable. D & C, a continuing gospel is convenient for the leader supreme to invalidate a former finding, in other words to contridict whom you call god. If you want to follow a belief system that leaks lies from every seam and is full of holes so that the whole system becomes transparant to those of us who care enough to do a little research, and have a working knowledge of the Bible, God's Only Divinely Inspired work.

The extremely self-serving actions of your self appointed leadership only support my thoughts.

I see no love, no forgivness, no kindness, no sanctity of marriage, no value given to children, a huge desire to gain wealth at anyone elses expense, secretivness, repeated lies to enable church ideals, selective morality. These are the fruits of your spirit. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

You don't want me to post because it makes you uncomfortable and questions the authority of your priesthood and prophet system.

Anonymous said...

Muggsey,

You are so ignorant. You are once again disclaiming the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith and yet you champion the "Bible, God's Only Divinely Inspired work.". The bible is as much of a novel as the BOM. Get over yourself you think if throw out all kinds of hatred and self promoting facts that we will all drop down and start to beleive your fallacy instead of ours!

So lets give your tactic a try. So Muggsey until you can prove factually and scientifically that the Red Sea can and was parted or that Jesus walked on water or that a women could be turned to salt by looking back at a city then your bible is just another novel on the great heap of books we now enjoy.

Get over your self. If you are such religious person why dont you act like Jesus. Why are you so axnious to spew hate about someone elses beliefs.

muggsey said...

How does one get over oneself? Do a back-flip? Is your next question how does one get beside themself?

Ots has been doing both ever since I saw his first post. It's called schizophrenia.

Since your god is named Adam, Michael or some other pagan diety it's obvious you don't worship the God I do. But you claim to be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. How very strange! I don't see any witness to the saving power of Jesus in your progrom. (spelling intentional) Therefore, why should it bother you because I choose to stick with the writings and teachins handed down through the ages, not beginning in 1820 + - with the halucination of a gold digger, seer, known oddsmaker at race tracks who was unable to succeed at anything except fraud.

I don't hate you. I don't know you. You don't know me. I do know this and trust in it's absolute truth.

In the beginning GOD created heaven and earth. Gen. 1:1;

In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD. The same was in the beginning with GOD. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not anything made that was made was made. In HIM was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:1-5

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

HE was in the world, and the world knew HIM not. HE came unto HIS own, and HIS own recieved HIM not.
But as many as received HIM, to them gave HE the power to become the sons of GOD, even to those who believe on HIS name. Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of GOD. And the WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld HIS GLORY, the GLORY
AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:10-14

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
I am not the least worried about your lack of belief in the miracles of the Bible or even your belief in the truth thereof. You know what you believe.

I don't believe that you are any more a saint, or really even a saint, as are many black, brown, oriental, Arabic, or Anglo-Saxon-European men and women who meet regularly for worship, prayer, singing and fellowship to practice agape love for each other, in spite of the error in anyone's life. They demonstrate more saintliness and certainly more care and love for their fellow man than I have seen from the examples of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or Warren Jeffs.

By the same logic that you claim sainthood you could claim that you were a mud fence, that would make just as much sense and be much more believable.

You see, my faith is just that, faith. Whether you believe or not is not a problem for me. My eternal salvation is in no way tied to whether you believe as I do or not. I see the abuse and lack of love, of forgivness, judgement, and money grubbing demonstrated by the little contact I have had with mormon people, FLDS or otherwise, and have to wonder how you can take the name of Jesus in vain by attaching HIS HOLY name to that congregation of self-righteous, indignant, intolerant, self indulgent, saddistic abusers of women and children.

I am not the judge but, you will be judged by the ETERNAL JUDGE. That there is no way you can escape judgement is a certainty.

Be careful about attempting to turn the tables upon someone of true faith. YOur effort to do so will always backfire. We are protected by GOD'S GRACE. Our faith plus HIS GRACE accomplishes good works, not for our honor, but to honor HIS HOLY NAME.

pligchild said...

Mugs I like your fire, but to disparage someone else’s faith by attacking their leader who you have never met, but want to believe anyone who hates him, only makes you look like you don’t have that much confidence in your own faith so you have to put someone else’s down to make your own look better. It makes you look like someone with a Bible in the shape of a baseball bat with a picture of Jesus on it, clobbering us into believing the way you do. OTS has done the same thing, and I am not innocent either. I apologize.

I have no intention of changing anyone else’s faith. I just explain mine because I think people are interested. I can tell that you are not; and that is fine with me, I can love you anyway.

I ask you to forgive me for not turning away from the God and Savior that my mothers, father, grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles, teachers, and friends all believe in, and accepting salvation before I have earned it. I think that HE will forgive me, so maybe you could too.

The amazing thing about quoting scripture is that there is nothing in the Bible that I don’t believe, if it is translated correctly. So you can't use it to attack my faith. In fact it strengthens my faith. It proves that we need prophets and pastors to help us understand what the words mean.


The biggest difference between Mormonism and the rest of Christendom is the idea that we already existed as spirit children before we came to earth, and will still exist as spirits even when we die, all without the Fall, or the Atonement. This life is all about gaining eternal BODIES. It is quite a mind shift. The only way anyone has tried to convince that it is wrong has been by saying how bad the leader(s) is(were), not that the religion itself is wrong otherwise. It makes sense to us.

Anonymous said...

Boy Mugs, you got problems!!! Seems you got a little hot around the collar. You say you don't care if we don't acknowledge your Bible. That it is your faith that makes it right, and only right. But I put it to you again. Why does my faith not make my scriptures as right as yours are to you? Oh that is right I don't have the same faith as you do, my faith is inferior to yours. You are the one and only right way in this great big world of ours that we are all trying our very best to muck thru. Well I might be greatly disappointed when I get to the judgement seat, or you may be just as disappointed, who knows and who can say. I know that what I belive is what I consider right in this world. So that is that, end of story, the fat lady has sung, lights out kiddies to bed!!!

Smile always, don't let it get to you so much.

C YA ;>

Anonymous said...

CTR (and also Mugs)

If you believe all of the bible, what about this?

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Anonymous said...

Wow. Mormons, FLDS and otherwise, are practising one of the most demented religions on the planet. Second only to Scientology. Well done America. If your country was a bladder, it would be pissing madness and ignorance.

Anonymous said...

to the anonymous liberal above.I wonder if you realize the "madness,and ignorence" you yourselfe display when you forget that it was AMERICAN BLOOD not urine that,some 65 years ago,relived you, even now of being under a tyrany that would be worse than any of the above mentioned organizations.I belive you sir,or madam,as the case may be,owe us as Americans, an appology.

Bluebeard.

Anonymous said...

Actually, that was the English who won that war. The Americans mostly kept out of the fight, until they felt the need to do a major nuclear test in Japan, killing and maiming thousands and destroying the lives of generations to come. The war was pretty much over that point anyway.

The world will apologise to America when America, when America decides to apologise to the world. In the meantime, keep on with the religious fundamentalism and craziness. It's what you guys do best.

ATAR_i said...

awww don't be jealous just cuz you don't have superpowers.

Anonymous said...

Anon lib.
and we thought the flds wer misguided.
oh well,I was once told by a wise man,dont argue with drunks,or fools,as there most promenent feature is,a fuctioning mouth,without the benefit of a fuctioning brain.

Bluebeard.

pligchild said...

Hey anon-
Do you feel pissed off, or pissed on? And which do you prefer?

pligchild said...

Anon 7:24 That is good! I laughed out loud.

Of course the Law of Moses was ended (fulfilled) by the King

But I will humor

a) Go ahead, but not too hard (Exodus 21:12), and keep your left hand up to defend your eyes and teeth
b) It depends on the minimum wage, if she is a good maid, or if she is marriageable
c) Carry two turtles and two pigeons around with you and she will catch on.
d) Not sure, check with NAFTA
e) No, just bore his ear with an awl and he will mow your lawn too
f) Your friend is right
g) Not sure, try it and see if you are struck dead
h) Old age
i) no, just wash your hands
j) Depends, does he blaspheme in his field with his cotton/polyester shirt his mother-in-law made him?

ATAR_i said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ATAR_i said...

plig, be a darlin and explain to me how turtles and pigeons would help.

pligchild said...

Leviticus 15

27 And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

28 But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.

29 And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Anonymous said...

Answer to C:

Just avoid all contact with all women all of the time from now on just to be sure you don't violate the law.

That would also include all men (and shellfish) too, of course, as you don't want to be committing the abominations of F as well.

ATAR_i said...

I still don't get the joke - why would HE carry them?

I kinda wished we'd kept that rule - I wouldn't mind a week off reading and playing games in the Red Tent with all my buddies on a regular basis.

Anonymous said...

Plig child I am impressed.
You can pick out Leviticus in the old testament. Good for you.


Joseph Smith experimented with animal sacrifices in the beginning. What happen?

muggsey said...

Annon 11/3 7:24

Naw, I think it would be a bit overboard to stone them. All those rules were made for a particular people living in a partricular place at a particular time in history. Many of the dietary rules were just good sense. Those people living in that place, time and era didn't know about trichinosis, botulism, ameoebic disentary (?), bloodborne diseases, salmonella or other common food poisoning or hygenic activity to prevent the spread of disease.

Don't have sexual encounter with anyone except your wife. If you can count, you have a pretty good idea of when her periods come. PMS is a pretty good indication. If you limit your sexual activities to your wife you also assist in containing std. Pretty good idea too.

There were five yarns that could be made into cloth. Wool, mohair (goat hair, if you are not from where goats are raised), flax (linen), cotton, and silk. They were not likely to have access to linen, cotton, or silk except by trade. The tensil strength of each of these fibers varies. Sewing two of the fabrics together could cause the weaker of the two to tear. They didn't have synthetic fibers many of which are a dirivitive of petroleum.

Selling your daughter would fall under white slavery laws. Be prepared to face consequences.

With the exception of burning dead animals who have died as the result of a plague, the only thing equating such an act would be to grill or barbecue. If this offends your neighbors check the clean air act in your area or, wait until the next time you go camping in the woods.

According the the 13-14-15 amendments to the United States Constitution, slavery is illegal.
Remember, Jesus said yield unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.

Oh, go ahead and kill your neighbor if you're a mind to, but expect to be tried for murder.

Remember Peter's dream on the rooftop, when the sheet of unclean foods descended before him? Peter was instructed to not call unclean that which God had called clean. About homosexuals, none have ever bothered me, I guess they know better. I personally think the acts associated with homosexual behavior are disgusting, God calls them abominable. Massachusetts just elects them to congress, maybe just to get them out of town.

I believe that the death of Christ, on the cross provided the one essential and eternal sacrifice for sin for all time. Therefore there is no need for me to approach an altar. I had 20/20 until I was over 40.

Precise haircuts may be applicable for Jews, but I'm not a Jew and I don't judge haircuts. I'm not too fond of men wearing ponytails or anyone with spiked hair but, that's really none of my business. I get a haircut fairly regularly. Short hair is more comfortable and cuts down on the 'hot-head syndrome'. (not to be confused with becoming "hot-headed")

I eat bacon and pork chops, can I still play tiddly-winks?

My uncle's behavior, although it may make me uncomfortable, and I don't want that language spoken in the presence of my wife and children, he is the one responsible before God, not me, I'd just ask him to cool it.

Does he sow the two different seeds together at the same time? He'd get a better crop if he were to divide the field evenly and plant the seed separatly. If the two crops cross-pollinate a hybrid, unable to reproduce could be the outcome. It makes good sense to plant oats in one field and watermellons adjacent. No cross pollination is likely between those two crops. Besides, they have different seasons for growth. Oats, late winter & spring. Watermelons, mid to late summer.

I had an uncle, when he was an infant shared a pallet with an infant later to become his wife. Were they guilty of fornication?

In the society in which I live it is not acceptable behavior to have a coital relationsip with my father's wife(s), sisters, nieces, nephews, grandmothers, grandfathers, uncles, aunts or cousins. I do have a first cousin who married a cousin five times removed. I think the term is commonly reffered to as "kissin' cousins." Should I get the family worked up for a stoning?

pligchild said...

atari- maybe I was wrong? She might not catch on and take his turtle offer to the priest.

anon 2:11 Nah, I just read. Do you have any reference to when Joseph Smith offered sacrifice? I dont, but it wouldn't surprise me. Is this another attempt to slader him?

pligchild said...

atari- by the way, you really need to get a few sister-wives! (JUST KIDDING!)

onthestreet said...

MUG Said (11/04/2006 2:49 PM):
In the society in which I live it is not acceptable behavior to have a coital relationsip (that’s right, so quit sipping your wife), with my father's wife(s), sisters, nieces, nephews, grandmothers, grandfathers, uncles, aunts or cousins. I do have a first cousin who married a cousin five times removed. I think the term is commonly reffered to as "kissin' cousins." Should I get the family worked up for a stoning?


STREET’s Reply: See Mug, don’t have coital relationships at all. Like you say, it is “Not acceptable behavior” to do so with those women, and if that is the case, it is not acceptable to do so against your wife or any other woman either. “God is no respecter of persons”, so what applies to other women applies to your wife just as well. She has rights too, you know, in her person and soul, to remain undefiled or taken advantage of, just because she is your wife. What are you, a dam-breeder?

I saw the Breeders Cup at Church Hill Downs today. What’s with that? Churches are certainly down when breeders are involved. When do breeders need cups anyhow, unless it has to do with the horse’s bra size. I couldn’t believe some of those horses’ names:

Nasty Bitch, Got Laid, Dip Stick, Doggie Style, Nookie, Ghetto, Hanky Panky, Behind Closed Doors, Last Chance, Antsy Pantsy, Principle Secret, Appealing Zophi.

Dreaming of Anna’s owner got his dream. She won. That is only possible by escaping the damn breeder. Cotton-Pants only came in third. That’s what the girl gets for wearing the pants. I hear that one thing about running a Nevada style ranch, it’s like a horse-ranch: They sure do let off alot of steam out the hind end when they’re turning those tricks. When you can hear afaurt or news from that distance, it’s got alot of rank to it.

That’s the rank of a beautiful woman turning tricks with Tricky-Dick, and sitting on her John. Churches are certainly “Down” when that’s going on. She’d do far better with long-johns, with the sanctity of her morals intact. “As a jewel of gold in a swine’s snout, so is a fair woman without discretion” (Prov.11:22).

God bless you women whose cup runneth over in more wholesome ways. The more you are like a snake to men, the more you will enjoy the firey-serpent of the Spirit, and the approbation of heaven. You’ll be infinitely more beautiful, powerful, and desirable to God and man. Otherwise, you’re just a piece of meat in a breeder’s cup, and a rancid piece at that, becoming extinct.

onthestreet said...

This, my friends, is the central issue and difference between world polygamy or shacking up with neighbors and horses and wives, vs careful purebread relations and authority with God in creation, within plural spiritual unions. It is both central and fundamental because it is on the central channel of the Tree of Life, the foundational plane of all creation, the Yesod Sefirot.

ATAR_i said...

OTS,

That was a putrid bit of free association if I ever did see one.

Plig,

I have plenty of friends who'd sit in my tent, they just don't sleep with my husband.

And yeah, don't count on the wife making a play for that pidgeon - my G-d what I wouldn't do for that kind of time off!

pligchild said...

ots, I know why you are not FLDS, I know why I am not FLDS, but do you know why YOU are not FLDS? Your brain has some truth in it, but man alive that is sick! It makes me want to run away from this blog like it is a dirty magazine. Quit it, or go away, or I will.

ATAR_i said...

Thanks plig - where does that sort of fetid diatribe come from?

onthestreet said...

There you go, pliggy. The nature of man is very much worse than a dirty magazine. That is why it is so offensive toyaal. "The natural man is an enemy to God", saith the Lord. Do any of you still love the Lord, or has this changed your mind.

In this last day, Satan SHALL deceive the whole world (Rev. 12:9). "And who will be able to stand", if all the world is deceived. The mark of the beast is upon you, and now it begins to be manifest.

realula said...

I still don't get why the Bible is the the Word of God, but we can willy nilly decide that we don't have to cut our hair a certain way, or we can eat those things now,(they just didn't have our hygene)and all those things in Lev. were just for a certain time and people. But THE WORD is eternal and must be taken literally in respect to the things WE decide are still relevant. I guess we each get to decide what the interpretation is and what is really relevant, which means we each get to belive the faith we were raised in, join one that speaks to us better, or create our own personal version of all of the many manuscripts and documents that were passed down verbally and rewritten so many times that the original meaning is anyones guess. As long as ya can fall back on 'I HAVE FAITH', or testimony, or if you assign numbers or read the stars, or, or.... (and by the way, have you got a transcript of the latest secret tapes? - I'm sure they will make it all clear now.) Variety might be the plan and how we respect and care for each other in those differences the only judgement.

Anonymous said...

The Bible was assembled by man, not by god or by women. It was a means to control large masses of people, a political venture. It can be manipulated to mean anything you desire. Many innocent individuals have been abused and killed in the name of this book.

Anonymous said...

Onthestreet, do you realize that perhaps you are Satan? Your vugarity and preaching reminds me of the Church of Satan.

ATAR_i said...

Realula that's a great question.

Those things that were done, to make and keep us clean (the law), because we could not come into the presence of God without being clean.

There was a 'curtain' a large curtain between where we could be, and where God was (the holy of holies) in the temple.

When Christ sent his son, who was without sin, and he died on the cross, the curtain was torn. Because of Christs sacrifice was enough, all we need do now is ask for forgiveness.

That's the theology of why we do not need to follow the dietary, and other old testament laws.

If you are Jewish, you might still follow many of those laws, dietary, hair, etc.

So who is right? Which way is best? I used to think I knew, I hope I'm doing it right - I think that's why the call it faith. You believe it, but you can't see it.

OTS - because man has a sin natures doesn't not mean he uses that as an excuse to sin wantonly. Your display of vulgarity was repulsive.

pligchild said...

“The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence…He knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness, and strength,… their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption… He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.” (TPJS pg 220)

“The plans of Jehovah are not so unjust, the statements of holy writ so visionary, nor the plan of salvation for the human family so incompatible with common sense; at such proceedings God would frown with indignance, angels would hide their heads in shame, and every virtuous, intelligent man would recoil.
If human laws award to each man his deserts, and punish all delinquents according to their several crimes, surely the Lord will not be more cruel than man, for He is a wise legislator, and His laws are more equitable, His enactments more just, and His decisions more perfect than those of man; and as man judges his fellow man by law, so does God of heaven judge “according to the deeds done in the body.” To say that the heathens would be damned because they did not believe the Gospel would be preposterous, and to say that the Jews would all be damned that do not believe in Jesus would be equally absurd; for “how can they believe on him of whom they have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher, and how can he preach except he be sent;” consequently neither Jew nor heathen can be culpable for rejecting the conflicting opinions of sectarianism, nor for rejecting any testimony but that which is sent of God [TO THEM ] for as the preacher cannot preach except he be sent, so the hearer cannot believe without the he hear a “sent” preacher, and cannot be condemned for what he has not heard, and being without law, will have to be judged without law.” (TPJS pg 221)

You will be judged by what God sends you here to do, not by what He sends ME or anyone else to do. We are all brothers and sisters, HIS children, whom he loves equally. Our bodies are given life by HIM. That thing, called “LIFE”, is the Spirit of God. Everything that is alive has it, but in us, being His children, he also gave us the opportunity to become like Him, to CHOOSE to do the RIGHT that you were born knowing. The more you do right, the more you will gain that Spirit, and the more you will learn better what is right or wrong. When you willingly do wrong, (Not MY WRONG, YOUR WRONG) you lose portions of that Spirit. You lose the ability to realize the difference between right and wrong, and eventually you tend to assume that those who are trying to do right are the ones who are doing wrong. You become atheist. I do not condemn atheism, I believe that it is actually a mercy from God, to preserve at least some of His Spirit in them, called happiness. Everyone thinks THEIR happiness is the best, and you know, THEY are right!

Anonymous said...

Plig

"...when you willingly do wrong..."

From that line to the end of your post describes exactly what I have seen those still in the FLDS use to justify following Warren. Good job! And I think your comment about the atheism is right on the money. If those faithful to Warren do not turn around they will become atheist. It is inevitable.

pligchild said...

6:22-

So are you saying I must do the right thing you were told to do?

I have no desire to destroy your faith, can you say the same about me?


I feel privileged to believe the way I do, I feel great, I feel spoiled. If that is atheist in your book, fine, but if that gives you reason to put an end to my religion, or to the poor guy who had to correct me because I willingly chose to do wrong, then it is your loss.

I can only lose by hating, I can never win.

I can never lose by striving to become:

"8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." (Matthew 5)

There is no place I would rather be.

ATAR_i said...

I think you can 'not believe in warren' and 'not be an atheist' - I don't believe those are mutually exclusive.

pligchild said...

me too

Anonymous said...

Hebrews
8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.


9:1 Now even a first covenant had ordinances of divine service, and its sanctuary, a sanctuary of this world.
9:2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the first, wherein were the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the Holy place.
9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies;
9:4 having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was a golden pot holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
9:5 and above it cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy-seat; of which things we cannot now speak severally.
9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;
9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:
9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
9:9 which is a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,
9:10 being only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh:
9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
9:16 For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it.
9:17 For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth.
9:18 Wherefore even the first covenant hath not been dedicated without blood.
9:19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses unto all the people according to the law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 9:20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded to you-ward.
9:21 Moreover the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry he sprinkled in like manner with the blood.
9:22 And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
9:23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: 9:25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own; 9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;
9:28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

ATAR_i said...

This passage is about worship in the earthly tabernacle - what does it mean to you, and why did you put it here?

Anonymous said...

Correct Atar_i
I just like to use SCRIPTURE to make a point.

Verses show the first covenant God made with Abramham covered MAN SINS with burned animal sacrifices in the a EARTHLY COPY OF TABERNACLE-TEMPLE OF GOD, which at this time does not exist on earth.

THE VEIL WAS TORN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM after Jesus' death. Remember?
MARK 15:37 And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom.
LUKE 23:44 And it was now about the sixth hour, and a darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 23:45 the sun’s light failing: and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Atar_i said... There was a 'curtain' a large curtain between where we could be, and where God was (the holy of holies) in the temple.

When Christ sent his son, who was without sin, and he died on the cross, the curtain was torn. Because of Christs sacrifice was enough, all we need do now is ask for forgiveness.

WHY WAS THE VEIL TORN?

No need for earthly copies of PRIESTS, TEMPLES OR BLOOD SACRIFICES of any nature...
JESUS BLOOD SACRIFICE TRUMP JEWISH "LAW AND ANIMAL SACRIFICES"

HEBREWS
9:23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: 9:25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own; 9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Of course my Jesus was born of Mary a VIRGIN and the Holy Spirit of God.

IS ADAM A MAN, AN ARCHANGEL OR HOLY GHOST....


AND THIS IS WHAT THE FLDS WAS TAUGHT BY THEIR PROPHETS....

Pligchild quoted on his blog.

"In the creation Adam assisted Elohim and Jehovah to create this world for us, Adam’s (Michael's) children. Adam was the third member of the trinity when the world was created. He held the Office of the Holy Ghost, which is Priesthood. Adam fell, and begat sons and daughters in the Telestial, fallen, flesh.
When Adam was in the garden of Eden He prayed to His Father, Jesus Christ. Adam then died and took up His body again.
When Jesus Christ was born, he was born to Adam, and Mary. He (Jesus) was the Father and the Son of Adam. He called himself the Son of Man, and also the Father and the Son. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. He (Jesus Christ) is the advocate with the Father of our souls. We pray to Jesus Christ, the Very Eternal Father. He is our brother as to the flesh, but our God's Father before this world was made."

I AM SORRY PLIGCHILD, BUT YOUR ADAM SINNED AND CAME BACK AS JESUS?
HOW CAN YOUR JESUS BE A PERFECT SINLESS SACRIFICE?

Anonymous said...

To Anon 9:56

Yes Adam sinned by pertaking of the fall to allow us, his children to come and get bodies of our own. Adam did not come back as Jesus. That would make them the same person. Jesus is Jehovah. Adam is Michael. Who did Adam pray to when he was here on this earth? Who did Jesus offer his prayers to when he was here on this earth? Adam prayed to Jehovah while he was here. Adam died, was raised again with his body and took the office Micheal held. Jesus prayed to Micheal when he was here on this earth. Micheal being the Father and God over this earth. When Jesus said "I am the Father and the Son" he referred to being Jehovah (the Father) Jesus (the Son). That is my understanding of it.

ATAR_i said...

How about

Adam is Adam
Jesus is Jesus
Michael is Michael

etc etc etc

muggsey said...

I believe it to be important to understand of Hebrews Chapter 10 in order to have a fuller understanding of the previous nine chapters.

Chapter 10, verses 1 through 6 the writer explains that the practice of sacrifices, daily, under Mosaic law were uncceptable for the forgivness of sin. Verse 3 explains that the day of attonment was required to be repeated every year. (The High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies and there sprinkle the blood of animals upon the mercey seat of the Ark of the Covenant.) This act represents The Covenant made between God and Israel at Siani.

Remember, God presented himself to Israel, but because of their sin they feared God's presence and requested that they not have to face God again, but requested that Moses prepare a law for the purpose of them being able to approach the Holy Place with sacrifice, of the blood of animals, as a covering for their sin. They promised obedience to this law, but failed repeatedly in their attempt.

Hebrews Chapter 10:4 states:

4. It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.

(Verse 5 reviews a promise made to Moses regarding the coming of a redeemer into the world.)

5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6. In burn offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

.................................

10. By the which will we all sanctified througfh the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

(Once only, was the sacrifice of Jesus required to redeem man unto God for all time. Jesus, having completed his earthly ministry, having died on the cross, having overcome death and the grave is now and forever seated at the right hand of God, the salvation task having been made complete, HIS task accomplished HE sits awaiting the pleasure of the father and the end of the age.)

13. From henceforth expecting till his enimies can be made his footstool.

14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16. This is the covenant that I will make with them afther those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

(This is the NEW covenant promised to Moses, replacing for all time the repeated need for daily sacrifice.)

18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19. Having therefore, brethern, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus.

20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

(The veil, or dividing partition between the holy place and the HOLY of HOLIES, was rent in twain upon the death of JESUS on the CROSS. JESUS replaced the veil as the only separation between GOD and man, therefore, the only approach to GOD'S Throne is through JESUS, who replaced the veil, for all time.)

21. And having an high priest over the house of god;

22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works.

(JESUS, our only approach to GOD, desires for us to love one another, the product of which is good works.)

Anonymous said...

atar_i & muggsey

It gets worse. We were handed a computer chart straight from Dilbert that tells who was what when and who they are now.

muggsey said...

11/9 7:29

Second what Atar_i said. Right on target!

This difficult passage is much easier to understand in modern English. NIV or NASV are good choices and much more easily understood. I just quoted the correctly transltated version of the KJV, in all it's original Elizabethian verbage.

Ask only that you read the scriptures (quoted directly from KJV) The paranthetical comments are mine, [with the exception of those contained within the quoted scripture, those are from the KJV])

The simple explainations were intended for average people's understanding. Since you seem to think yourself so much smarter than the average, perhaps you should enroll in post doctoral study at a seminary. May I sugest the University of Glasgow.

muggsey said...

Pligschild,

No wonder your people use divining rods and seer stones. The convoluted teachings that have been forced upon your mind and soul by a seemingly equally demonically self-ordained prophets is beyond pathos.

GOD is GOD. He has three purposes, creator-sustainer, savior and messenger. HE IS - FATHER-SON-HOLY SPIRIT. HE created ALL, sacrificed self to save ALL, lives within the hearts of all who know HIM and believe his WORD. WHY? Because GOD IS LOVE. We can not be GOD, Adam, created by GOD from the dust of earth was NOT GOD, Never was, never will be.

Michael is the Archangel charged with protecting Israel. You are not Israel. I am not Israel. Only those who genetically can trace their lineage to Jacob (Israel), or those who became Israelites through submitting to circumcision can claim to be proselytic Israelites.

Today's Jews are the only tribe that retains it's identity. The Jews are tied to Jacob (Israel) through Jacob's son Judah. Judah was not the eldest son by Leah or Rachel's eldest son, and Jacob's favorite, Joseph. Judah gained favor by being willing to take Benjamin's place. This was after Judah had been the chief force behind selling Joseph into Egyptian slavery.

David was of the tribe of Judah. David was promised by God that his descendents would forever be on the throne of Israel. JESUS, GOD in Heaven resting upon the bosom of GOD in eternity, rested upon the bosom of his earthly mother Mary. JESUS was and is ALL GOD and for the sake of forgivness of man's sin ALL MAN. Note the distinctive similarities between Genesis, Chapt. 1 and The Gospel of John, Chapt 1.

The fall of Adam was not necessary. Adam made a bad choice. He chose not to follow GOD'S orders. He ate the forbidden fruit. He was driven from the garden lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. Adam died, as did Seth, etc. Eve bore children in pain. The ground was cursed because of Adam's sin and produced briars and weeds, never mentioned as present in the Garden of Eden. Adam, who was under GOD'S Grace (loving care), upon his fall had to toil for his bread. God slew animals to provide skins to clothe the naked Adam and Eve. Thus the blood sacrifice came into effect.

Why do you think Adam disobeyed God? A temptation to become like GOD was offered him by Satan.

Satan is still offering that same temptation to those of you who believe yourselves to be capable of impressing your priesthood and prophets enough to be allowed to achieve the very thing that eluded Adam. You want to be GOD! Instead, you die in sin, not trusting in the saving GRACE of GOD, presented as a gift to you through your faith in the saving blood of CHRIST JESUS. No other name is given in heaven or on earth whereby man mut be saved. You actions are remisicent of those of a three year old child, "I want to do it myself." You can't do it yourself, even with the assistance of every man, save JESUS, Called the CHRIST.

I don't believe in luck, but evidently you do. So, if that is your belief, I wish you good luck, you're gonna' need every bit you can get, for all the good it will do.

Anonymous said...

ouch! That didn't feel like a love bite.....

Anonymous said...

It just occured to me that OTS is actually Satan. Call me mad, but he's certainly never been FLDS.

muggsey said...

Occasionally the tree must be shaken. The "nuts" are already loose and ready to fall. Just a little shake often dislodges them and they are exposed for just what they are, nuts!

Anonymous said...

Hey Muggs, if Adam didn't fall, how would you have come to be????

Anonymous said...

Muggsy slimed out of the primordial ooze.

TBM said...

Muggsey, there you have one of the more fundamental disagreements between Mormonism and Christianity. Christianity says that Adam sinned, and we could all be running around the Garden of Eden, naked, innocent and happy if he hadn't done so.

Mormonism says Adam transgressed, and this was foreseen and expected by God and was part of His will, and that God's plans could not have been fulfilled without Adam's transgression.

My opinion is that, if God is all powerful and all-knowing, how come He screwed up by allowing Adam to sin?

muggsey said...

If you will note, I did NOT say that Adam did NOT fall, I said that his fall was NOT necessary but a CHOICE on his part. Adam, my earthly father, as well as yours, was created in a moment of time. This event occurred at GOD'S chosen moment. ADAM didn't evolve and neither did I.

To quote from a bumper sticker I saw recently, "God spoke and BANG it happened." GOD said it, I believe it, and the matter is settled, as far as I am concerned. I don't profess to know your condition nor belief. You are not my responsibility, with the exception of my sharing my faith. Beyond that, you're on your own.

muggsey said...

11:48

GOD granted Adam, as HE does and has, to all beings created in HIS image, "free-choice." GOD, unlike the FLDS profit system, does not dictate, with one exception: GOD gave Eden to Adam. GOD told Adam that from every plant he (Adam) could eat. There was one exception, The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. GOD told Adam that upon his (Adam's) disobedience that HE, GOD would allow Adam, and thus all man, to die. In GOD'S continuing demonstration of love for Adam GOD gave him a mate, not created from the dust as was Adam, but taken from Adam's own body.

Each person may make their own choices, but must then live with the result. Good choices result in good results. Bad choices in bad results. The choices man makes has an impact upon the individual's (his or her) life. We are held accountable individually, not collectivly for the sins we commit and are rewarded for the good deeds we do, as long as the reason for doing good is to please and honor God. When we do good deeds to honor ourselves, in an attempt to impress GOD with our goodness, the deeds are considered as trash and destroyed.

Anonymous said...

Muggsey, Your total contempt for Mormanism is obvious. You preach down to us about our beliefs and yet you try to inspire confidence in your God that is 3 people yet one person but not a person and he's every where yet no where. It would be interesting to hear from you (without some self revealing rant about mormanism) what heaven looks like to you? Okay you die, what happens, what do you do, how long do you do it? We are talking eternity so please make sure you elaborate.

Very interested,
PB

muggsey said...

PB

I am not a seer, nor do I have, nor desire the ability to conger. I write what I know. I know because I understand the principles of Faith and Grace, neither of which you a basic understanding.

God is not three people, he is ONE. HIS presence serves three different purposes: Creation & Judgement, Savior of the World and Divine Messenger.

I know HE lives. How? He lives within my heart.

Anonymous said...

Thats real special, but answer my question. Do you think it's over when we die? What is your understanding of heaven? Save the platitudes please, as they are just that. Is it going to be like the TV show Deal or no Deal? Where you don't really know what is in your case till you open it? Help me out.

PB

muggsey said...

PB

To presume to be clairvoyant and to give a description of heaven, when a perfect description has been given in Revelation Chapter 21, would be most foolish. Read this chapter and learn for yourself.

I've already made my peace with GOD. There was no deal involved. GOD'S GRACE (LOVE offered, without merit on my part) was sealed by the exercise of faith in HIS LOVE (my part). The products of this union are good works, that honor GOD'S HOLY NAME, NOT an effort to impress GOD with my ability to do good things, in an effort to gain praise.

I serve HIM in love, HE recipricates by giving me more of HIS LOVE. For this I praise HIS HOLY NAME.

I don't get a "case" but, eternal life in HIS presence. What will that be? I'll find out when GOD has determined my earth bound journey is complete. What ever I receive will be fully just and within HIS WILL. GOD knows all the answers. No one on earth knows what the future holds. Since HE made it, HE will make all the final decisions.

No platitudes here, just the facts as I am aware of them.

Anonymous said...

NOT an effort to impress GOD with my ability to do good things. ....... Do we agree that God wants us to do good things? Or do you just have to exercise your faith in HIS LOVE? Is that all you need to do? If you steal/murder/etc. then it's still okay as long as you exercise your faith in HIS LOVE? Don't you think you need a life time of good works that build your character so that God will want to claim and own you? We might be just arguing semantics here, but surely you would agree that there is some character work involved, right?

About your lack of knowledge of heaven, we don't need to carry that on any further. If you insist on being happily suprised then that works for you and if it works for you then it works for me as well.

muggsey said...

Friend,

Your presumptions regarding GOD'S love go beyond the the simple truth. If I am in HIS love, living, behaving, giving, working, then how could I be motivated to murder, rob, commit adultry, lust, covet or bear false witness?

All of these are all fruits of serving Satan. If I do not serve Satan and have placed my faith and hope in the hands of a just and loving GOD, why would I succumb to the temptation to commit any of those grievous acts?

That doesn't mean however that I might not kill someone accidently, such as might happen in an automobile accident but, the other person's death was not planned or committed as an act of revenge it was an accident. If GOD didn't have an understanding of the possibility of such events why were the cities of refuge, places of safety for individuals who killed another as the result of an accident ordered placed in ancient Israel? GOD is merciful, forgiving, and loving. After all, he came to planet earth as a man, gave his life for sins forgivness, for all time. How much more loving could GOD be?

HE IS LOVE, I am an empty vessel that was filled with HIS LOVE to overflowing many years ago. I placed my faith (trust) in HIS LOVE, as demonstrated by JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS. As I live, I pass on the overflow of HIS love from my vessel to others. HE never lets my vessel drop to the "add" mark, it is kept full at all times, and in all circumstances. The overflow of GOD's LOVE may also be referred to as good works. They are HIS good works, I am just a tool being used by HIS hand of LOVE.

I don't think I need anything but GOD's unconditional continuance of LOVE to be able to stand in HIS presence and hear HIM say, "WELL DONE, MY GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT, ENTER INTO THE JOY OF YOUR REWARD."

WHATEVER THAT REWARD MIGHT BE, IT IS TOTALLY JUST AND I AM ALREADY HAPPY AND FULL OF HIS JOY.

Oh that you could receive that joy in your life. You can, but you have to surrender to Jesus' plan for your salvation.

See John 3:16-17; Romans Chapter 6;
1 Corinthians 2:7-16;
2 Corinthians 4:7-5:7;
Galatians 3:5-11; Ephesians 2:4-10; Philippians 2:5-11;
Colossians 2:20-3:4;
1 Thessalonians 1:3-4;
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4;
1 Timothy 1:4-14; 2 Timothy 3:1-7;
Titus 1:10-13; Hebrews 1:1-8;
James 2:10-26; 1 Peter 1:3-25;
2 Peter 2:4-22, 3:1-16;
1 John Chapter 1; 1 John 5:1-13;
2 John 7; Jude 3-8;
Revelation 1:1-8, Chapter 22.

There are hundreds of similar passages throughout the New Testament. All reflect the love of GOD for HIS children, and pronounce the condemnation of those who reject HIS love (GRACE).

Anonymous said...

Your a tired old horn, go blow yourself.

muggsey said...

I'D RATHER WAIT TO SEE IF YOU COME TO KNOW THE LORD. WHAT A CHANGE IN ATTITUDE IT WOULD PRODUCE!

Anonymous said...

Brilliant insight! Muggs way to go.... toot toot that big horn.