Thursday, September 29, 2005
It has been four years
Today it has been four years since Nephi Barlow poured the concrete to the floor of his industrial building in Colorado City. It was the biggest single pour in Short Creek until Western Precision came along. Nephi was going to Austria to find the machines and connections to bring jobs and manufacturing to the desolate valley.
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68 comments:
And we thought the community was united and great things were happening. We were accomplishing more in two days than we had in years previous.
When the wicked rule the people mourn.
I was unaware of Nephi's endeavour. What was he going to manufacture? What were the machines that had to come all the way from Austria? How would it make the people immoral?
Was Nephi booted?
must have been a starbucks, coke, or Lipton's franchise
This is the way it is with some people; If they are in our church then they are critazised by all the ones who have left, for being brain washed. There deeds are highlighted. But if they are cast out for there sin, then in the eyes of these apostates, they are hero's because they can blame there sin on another, get the sympathy of the media, and the law, and be hero's because they escaped what they did not want. And they spend the rest of their life's trying to make every one else miserable. And the grossest of sinners are upheld by the law, because of their flattering words. God is no respector of person's. People who drug children and lie, will pay the debt. NO matter how stupid they can make their victum's look. No matter what their glory show was. With God their is no respector of persons. If you do a deed you are accountable. In his court there is not a winner according to the fancyiest show. If you are guilty you are guilty. SO TANGLED STRINGS AND TANGLED LIES, NEVER ACCOUNTED TO MUCH!
Sounds like some one is steaming. It is interesting what you call illiterate, brainwashed bull. Keep your shirt on. Life is full of tangled webs.
The ones that need to help with the UEP actually need to be the ones that realize there is a problem.
Nephi is not aware there is a problem, He is taking his correction sweetly and wakes up every morning wondering what he did wrong. And how he can repent more than he already has.
This is the way it is with some people; If they are OUT of "the church" then they are critazised by all the ones who are IN,( or half way in) for being brain washed. Their deeds are highlighted.
But if they are cast out for their sins, then in the eyes of those in "the church", they are hero's because they can repent from their sins, and won't talk to the media, and the law, and be hero's because they want to be back in "the church". And they spend the rest of their life's trying to make every one else miserable. And the grossest of sinners are upheld by "the church", because of their flattering words. (this is WJ)
God is no respector of person's. People who drug themselves, and their children and lie, will pay the debt. NO matter how stupid they look. No matter what their glory show was. With God there is no respector of persons. If you do a deed you are accountable. In his court there is not a winner according to the fancyiest show. If you are guilty you are guilty. SO TANGLED STRINGS AND TANGLED LIES, NEVER ACCOUNTED TO MUCH!
(Goes to prove that Uncle Fred and his family and most of the women in town were/are on Zoloft to help them "Keep Sweet" and deal with a gazillion children)
Nephi's dream was a rastor (sp?) block factory that would make blocks of styrofoam/cement to make houses. It is a great idea to help deal with the extreme hot/cold cycle in the desert and it is cost effective compared to wood. He was tired of framing and going out on jobs and wanted to find something he could export. The people in the city office over engineered the footings and it took more than 3x what was expected to get the floor and footings done. Nephi did a great job getting everything together and then all the momentum disapated when Western Precision came along a month or so later.
You know how it is when you let someone else tell you what you should be doing..instead of listening to your heart and doing what is best for you.
That last line says it all.
Well, I may not agree with Warren and whatever his reasons were, but I know that Nephi exploited his position as work leader to further his own interests and build his big house.
Not really very saintly, even by Warren's convoluted standards.
I was privvy to some things being done by the "big" elders, town fathers, or whatever you want to call them, in the name of the 'prophet' that U. Rulon in his day and U. Roy in his knew nothing about. There has been corruption there for years. I am also privvy to warren being just as corrupt or moreso than any one of them. That's what makes it hard to take when he sends them off to repent while he is heralded as the perfect one.
I think Nephi also knows what a farce warren is. Apparently warren had dug up enough dirt on Nephi to blackmail him. It is hard to believe Nephi can think warren will ever let him back in to get a piece of the glory.
Read this: http://www.mentalsoup.com/mentalsoup/basic.htm
Is Nephi B1 or B2?
It has been said to me many times about the leading men in the now FLDS: "These are good men!"
Uncle John used to say to people when told this about men who did not have their heart in the gospel:
"Yes, he is a good man. But what is he good for?"
History does repeat itself. Are we worthy of a Gideon? (per the King Noah story)
What is the definition of good, in the FLDS before Warren decided to be the judge and jury.
Give us a defintion of a good man and woman before Warren came along and changed it.
So what is the current count on how many of Nephi's boys have been booted?
Know this that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be.
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven.
He'll call, persuade, direct aright
And bless with wisdom, love, and light,
In every way be good and kind,
But never force the human mind.
Freedom and reason make us men,
Take these away, what are we then?
Mere animals, and just as well,
The beasts can't think of heaven or hell.
"I say, God bless you all. What you are called on to do, do it with a cheerful heart, and go ahead and leave the consequences with the Lord. I often think, if the people can forgive me of my faults, I certainly will forgive them of theirs." ~from a sermon of John Y Barlow 1944 ~
There you have it folks, in a neat little mini sermon from someone who knew what he was talking about. Isn't that refreshing? And what does that say about these guys who have abandoned both freedom and reason?
What has become of Nephi's son Amni Barlow? He is a good friend of mine and used to phone me occassionally, but I havn't heard from him in a couple of years now.
12;49 Look at what you posted. That is a lesson all by itself. God will force no man to heaven. It points out prefectly what I have been saying: If you want to be a part of the gospel the choice is yours. If you want to go to hell the choice is yours, but you can not blame any one if you are not happy and satisfied. WE HAVE A PROPHET IN ZION.
Applying the same logic you are using to infer that someone here is not happy and satisfied you must not be either because you scream to us about your prophet. I have no problem if you want to follow warren. This is America and you have that choice. However, when I see someone whom I believe is ignorantly headed into trouble I feel obligated to let them know. Otherwise I would be responsible in some degree for their downfall. This does not mean I am not satisfied and happy any more than yourself. You may not appreciate me pointing the errors out to you. You may hate me for doing it. I have learned that usually when people are the most upset about advice it is when they already know they are in the wrong and don't want to be reminded.
I Know there have been those in CC/Hildale who were ignorantly following warren. When they woke to what he really is for some it was too late to save their family. For some it was a shock that nearly ruined them. I think there are still many there who are in this condition. If I can help them see I will.
It is interesting to me that you "have a prophet in Zion" instead of "we have the Gospel of Christ". The one does not include the other in this case.
I believe you are right. At times it is frustrating. Mostly it's just plain sad. Guess I have to keep trying though.
In your voluminous quote I see Christ, Lord, Spirit all given the respect of capitalization. Nowhere here is prophet given the same respect. Instead it is put on the level of other gifts and callings of the members. With your infatuation with letters and their significance you will of course see what I see.
You help me prove my point. Thank you. Do you see the error of your thinking?
Can anyone tell me about Dean Cooke? What is/was his job in the Colorado City government? How close is/was he to Warren? What kind of person is he? Who are his closest friends?
What is your connection to Dean?
My connection to Dean Cooke? Let's just say I almost had some business dealings with him. At the time, I had no idea that he was part of the FLDS Church. In fact I knew nothing about polygamy, or Warren, or any of it. So now I'm trying to put the pieces together.
fttc, I'd appreciate learning anything about him you can tell me.
The Dean Cooke I knew several years ago I would be willing to do business with. He was a very good friend, honest and sincere, always looking out for others. Dean was very close to Winston until Winston got the axe. He was very close to Police Chief Sam Roundy which put him that close at least to warren. When a man can turn his back on friends of years, does it say something about his character? This is a sincere question. I cannot know what pressures Dean has been under and if he is behaving outside what he would normally do because of it. I would rather think such is the case. I would proceed very carefully and make sure you dot all the i's.
I believe most of the people under warren's control to be honest given the chance. But for now you cannot discount the fact that they will do whatever he tells them to do. Civil contracts only mean as much as warren decides they mean.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Three individuals or three manifestations of the same spirit?
Capital punishment if he goes through with a crematorium.
Re: the question can anyone tell...about Dean Cooke.
I have on several occassions done business with him, and I have never had any reason to doubt his integrety. In all my experiences with him, he was so honest, I have come to trust him completely.
I try to hire men from Colorado City/Hildale as often as I can because they are dependable, honest, clean, and fast.
And this because they generaly mind their own business.
On the street
Are the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit three individuals or are they three personalities of the same person?
OK, I am willing to consider that Dean Cooke and at least some other members of the LDS Church act with integrity and honesty when they act on their own. But what about when they are asked to do their prophet's bidding? What about when Warren commands them to lie or cheat or steal for the advancement of the church? From what I've read, it sounds like this group does not hesitate to "Lie for Lord" when Warren tells them to.
Which is why I'm curious about Dean Cooke's role in the church. What, specifically, does he do for Warren? Does he hold a high position in the church or the local government in Short Creek? Does he travel much to other states?
Am I correct in assuming that you actually BELIEVE the things you read, about anything? Come on! The media lies about everything! How do you know if what you read is true? I don't know about the men in the FLDS, but I do know that everyone seeks advice from someone they respect. No one forces the FLDS to do dishonest or honest things, any more than a lawyer or a Priest, or even Dr. Laura, or Dear Abby force the people who seek their advise. However, we all look up to someone to help us make decisions in our lives. The choice to follow is entirely ours to make. If a person were to call Dr. Laura and say, my spouse is cheating on me, or we have a different religion, etc., she'd say,"Leave that bum, and get on with your life!" Is she to be blamed if the person chooses to follow or not follow her advise?
The Catholics say NO DIVORCE. But is it right to stay in an abusive relationship? So should we blame the Pope when a person loses his/her life at the hands of an abuser because the Church didn't grant an annulment?
Let people make choices and stop blaming their choices on the person they sought out for advise!
Anon 1:03
Of course we are each ultimately responsible for what we do. I think what Anon 11:58 is trying to find out is the chances of Dean getting warren's advice and keeping it. We know from past situations that warren has given advice that leaves unbelievers SOL.
I don't blame Anon for being concerned. I certainly would be, and I once knew Dean personally.
BTW, I've listened to Dr. Laura some and I have never heard her say that if you don't heed her advice you must leave your community and lose your family to a brother.
Doing business with Dean Cooke or any other person that listens to warren would be a serious mistake. I would avoid any business dealings with them like the plague. Any contract or agreement would be worthless as long as warren tells them what to do and how to think.
That is PROVABLE, I presume?
And NO, The Spectrum is NOT a reaiable source
on the street 10/5 10:30
who is joseph? you said he saw two but had a hard time telling them apart, why didn't he see all three? you refer to a grove, what grove? where? who else was there? you said that later he saw the third. which one was the third? how did he know it was the third? if he had a hard time telling the first two apart how did he know that the last one he saw wasn't one of the first two? did the third one have distinguishing qualities that if he saw three he could identify each separately? you make referance to Kirtland Temple, where is this? how do you know all this is true? you refer to one of the persons of the trinity as being head god, does this mean that your religeon is polytheistic?
Was David Allred another who went into bankrupcy and Warren did bail him out?
once upon a time ther were three bears......
Street do you know the words and the tune to the song "Yearning For Zion?"
Faithful do you know the words to the song "Yearning For Zion?"
But Street just means ABysmal, ABominable, ABhorrent, ABject ABjure truth, and ABsconded without any aBrains. He should ABdicate and ABase himself before anyone with ABility to discuss religion before he gets ABducted and removed to an ABattoir to ABide. He is too ABerrant and ABnormal and should be ABolished. He should ABsolutely ABridge his comments or have them ABrogated or ABscinded from this intellectual body. He is an ABscess in the ABdomen of ABuse. He should be left in the AByss of his ABortive religion and ABsent himself before he is strapped ABoard an ABomb and sent ABove the atmosphere. ABracadabra!
-ABsurd
I ABsoulutely agree with ABsurd ABove.
aBliteration personified!
abliteration is not a word. did you mean Obliteration?
didn't mean a thing. just making as much sense as the rest of this blog.
Zion is a swear word. It is used to keep little kids in line.
"If you don't do what I tell you to, you won't beable to go to Zion"
Only those who are perfectly obedient are going to go to Zion.
Only those that are perfectly happy and never fight and smile all the time get to go. If you do the dishes everyday and keep our house in perfect condition (with a gazillion children) and vacuum and dust and mop continually go can go too.
Husband - If you were teaching our children the things they need to know, we would be going to Zion, instead of being stuck here with the leftovers.
Wife - If you were perfectly obedient when I asked you do to clean and cook and have children and be pregnant and nursing for the next 20 years and always keep up to the children and teach them to clean and be happy, we would be going to Zion. You are holding back this entire family.
Kids - Please don't go to Zion with out me. I'll be good. I want to go and sing and dance in Zion.
Dance? DANCE??!???!
Who is so WICKED to suppose there is DANCING in Zion? Dancing was abolished YEARS ago! And the unwashed masses singing? God forbid! That privilege is reserved for His Holiness alone, and everyone else may just bask in his adenoid-strangled tones!
Be nice! You sang. Your whole family sang. Singing is encouraged, in fact Recommended. And you know it. You're just trying to be funny, but you envoke a predjudice that you aren't ready for. And what makes our dusty voices so desirable? Some people like adnoids!!! (I am your EYE in the sky)hmhmhmwaahahaha.....
P.S. Thanks for the dance =)
Where can I get some adenoid strangling tunes? I need something to keep the mice out of my house this winter.
oh wait, I don't hate the mice that much......
question.
Faithful Woman,
As a person who believes in life after death, I am curious: In your new-found peace, do you exclude the notion of a "renewal" of life in "dying"? I am Christian, and I beleive that in order to be renewed, one must lay down his earthly body. This is what Jesus taught. I have listened to many of the audio clips of Warren, and I never heard anything taught that I didn't agree with on this particular subject. (Presuming you meant the "renewal" of his father) So are you of the notion that he is dead at that is the end for him?
To Anon 10/10 10:27-
Thanks for the belly laugh. I am truly ROFLMAO! And um. . .what dance? Hope you don't get poked in your eye in the sty! tseeeeetseee!!!!
to 11:58--
Well then, SING! Fer hellsakes! Sing! =) SGTB!!! i will too! Nite-nite!
Honey.
There are a lot of inconsistencies in this ol' world. There are as many atheists as there are believers. I cannot prove there is a God. I can't describe a feeling. I go by faith. I listen for truth. I pray to an unseen God for wisdom and guidance. I sometimes interperet what I hear differently than others. I interperet the bible differently than others. I wonder if those who are still with Warren heard something that you missed......
Just wondering....
P.S. You're not listening....
No Faithful Woman was listening. That's how she escaped. She can think for herself. That is a no, no in warren's world. You do not question, god warren questions or answers. You obey, or else!
It hard being PERFECT.
And by the way Jesus might return tonight and some of us won't die and be changed as the Bible said "In a twinkling of an eye."
But until then our bodies die eventually, but our spirit live with Jesus or without. And it doesn't matter whether warren approves or not.
AMEN SO MOTE IT BE.
12:19--
Away, nor prosecute your quest! From our intentions well expressed you cannot turn us!
The state of your exotic views toward this person you accuse does not concern us!
Dance on!
A born-again Christian, a Mormon, a Muslim, a LeBaronite, a Jim Jones follower and a Warrenite each goes to a private place to kneel down and pray before God. Each one has a profound spiritual experience. Each believes to the core of his/her soul that God touched him during this experience.
The Born-Again Christian comes out saying “Praise the Lord” after every statement and states that the only way to achieve salvation is to accept Jesus into your heart as your savior. But, he says, a Mormon cannot be saved because they believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God, therefore they believe in a false Jesus.
The Mormon believes that no one can reach the Celestial Kingdom without being baptized into the LDS church. The Muslim blows himself up on a bus load of innocent people. The Lebaranite goes out and murders Rulon Allred. The Jim Jones follower goes to Guyana to drink poison and the Warrenite leaves her husband and gives herself and her children to other men.
I think that everyone should ask themselves; do you think that your spiritual experiences are any more profound than the experience that these people had? Do you think that their religious convictions are any less than yours? Do you think that they are any less convinced that they are right than you are? If they are wrong or deceived, why couldn’t you be also?
I would like to pose the question here; what good is faith? If people are willing to go out and kill themselves or others because of their faith, what validity is there to yours or my faith?
Mugwump and Faithful woman, thank you for your replies but I don't think that you have really addressed my question.
When I was speaking of faith I was refering to the faith that one has in his or her religion or the faith that one develops when they pray about something.
Mugwump, you stated that "The direction of that faith is driven by different sources, some good most evil."
I am sure that you believe that your faith is driven by good but someone from another religion might believe that you are driven by evil.
If a radical Muslim goes out and blows himself up on a bus, is he driven by evil? Is Warren driven by evil?
We can look at their deeds and say, of course they are driven by evil. However, these people probably believe that you are driven by evil, or at best,
misguided. They are driven by their own faith just as you are.
When someone is willing to go out and kill someone or kill themselves, in the name of their religion, they must have an extreme amount of faith. We know that people do crazy things because of their faith in their religion. These people developed their faith just as you have, by sincerely praying and seeking answers. Yet we know that most, if not all, of these people are seriously misguided in their faith. When you kneel down and pray for an answer, how do you know that you aren’t being misguided by your faith?
I think Jesus answered your question when he said judge men by their works. If the works brought forth by someone acting on their faith bring evil then their faith has misguided them. If the works bring forth good then is their faith guiding them in what is right.
Faith is the power of action in all intelligent beings. We exist by faith. We use faith in actions that bring harm as well as blessings. It is our duty to direct our faith in doing good.
Anon 10:30 those are really good questions. In my younger zealot years, as I look back, I doubt I was driven so much by faith - although my belief was solid - but it was more about a desire to be pleasing.
Not only to God, but to the people who stood along side me and said certain actions or attitudes was a good reflection of God or his purpose.
What I realized, after years of behaving in certain ways, to achieve certain goals, is that I had lost what it was I was supposedly fighting and achieving for.
So I took a few steps back, and decided to go back to the basics of my faith, pleasing God, doing good, caring for those in need. Yes, I have faith, but I doubt the zealousness and drive to achieve is based on faith - it's a more human instinct - to please, to make a difference.
Faith is so simple, it's natural and easy, and from it should spring good things.
So, those that followed Jones or LeBaron - their desire to please, to do the 'right thing' their human desires not to dissappoint, and to be respected as someone who 'loves God' by doing what those around them stated would 'prove that love' was the driving force.
If you have been in a group like this, you cannot see your actions as anything other than a reflection of your committment to God - it takes a lot to cut that cord, and pull someone to safety.
Someone illustrated to me that it is like watching TV, those that have their face up against the screen can tell there is alot happening, but those that take a few steps back can see the picture and Oh! My! There are people getting killed...it is not just a bunch of black and white dots.
The problem that I have with this thing called faith, as it pertains to a person’s religion, is that so many people are eager to profess their faith as if there is no possibility for error. I have heard so many people say that they know this or that to be true yet a rational person has to recognize the possibility, however remote that they think that it may me, that they could be wrong.
People will go out and preach their beliefs as if it is an absolute truth. This happens in every religion but let’s use the FLDS as an example.
Prominent people within that religion will get up and say things like “I know that the work is true”, “I know that the Book of Mormon is inspired of God”, “I know that Warren is a true Prophet”. They will say these things as if they are an absolute truth and people who aren’t inclined to think much for themselves will base their faith and testimony on what they are told. After all, it comes from the people that they love and respect most and so it must be true. So, their faith and testimony is really based on other people. Yes, we can tell them to go pray and find out for themselves but they have already been told that it is true.
It is pretty much the same thing with Catholics, Babtists or any other religion. If a person is going to express their faith but recognizes even a remote possibility that they could be wrong, don’t they have a moral obligation to also express the possibility that they could be wrong. After all, this person might believe you and, right or wrong, you will have to take responsibility for leading them down that path.
Well, I don't think you're going to hear the answer that you want. It's even a little much for me to swallow - and I've become quite a bit more flexible, and open to the possiblity that I don't know or have all the answers.
Would I express that while I believe Jesus to be the son of God - he might not be - heck no. That's a good example of a spiritual belief that is not open for debate for me, and for many others. There are multiple areas like this which it's just not right to ask people to question their faith.
However - a good example of something which you could ask someone to question might be: speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, exorcism, polygamy and many other topics which are peripherally related to someones faith - but perhaps not the absolute core of the faith. On those issues, I'm willing to admit that while I have my beliefs, I could potentially not have it right. Perhaps God doesn't care as much about polygamy, perhaps he wishes we all spoke in tongues each night at the dinner table - who knows. Those things - are open for me.
I don't think that you can have the expectation that getting to the core of someone's faith, and asking them to doubt it is something you can exert or expect. If it happens - so be it, but I wouldn't exert any pressure - it would need to be something internal - but most importantly - I wouldn't judge someone as being 'less than you' because they believe in something that they cannot see.
I do not consider those who have no religion to be more highly evolved or more intelligent - I view them to be different from me - nothing more.
and speaking of business deals, let me warn you about one more person not to do business with....Ross Chatwin!! Huh, faithful! Since you know so much about people whom not to do business with, maybe you can elaborate on this one!
What did Ross do to you? I have heard Ross say he would like anyone who has felt they did not get a good deal to come talk to him and work things out. He sounded willing enough. How about you? Or would you rather sit back and tell stories to make him look bad just because he doesn't believe like you?
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