Tuesday, April 26, 2005

Who are the Lawyers & there Bio who Represent FLDS/Warren

Since legal council advised the city of Hildale to turn on Ross Chatwins power, while others have presented cases for eviction, why not talk about the men behind the scenes? The real reasons why Warren has been able to continue without interference is really about the best attorneys money can buy. Does any one know Parkers past as a federal attorney? That Martineau was born in a familiar town in Mexico or that one attorney had a cabin built for him in payment for services in Idaho?

What upset one Utah legislator was the legal firm who was representing Colorado City as City Attorney under contract from 1991 to 2001. The Senior partner was well known in Southern Utah and the onsite attorney was nominated to the post of federal magistrate by former Utah governnor Mike Leavitt. In 2001 the Hildale City Attorney and special council was the former Washington County elected District Attorney from 1973 to 1978. His former partner was the Colorado City, City Attorney under contract and this man also was a former Deputy County Attorney.

Lets take a more serious look at who facilitated and enabled Rulon, followed by Warren to grow to the size he is today and offer credit where credit is do!

172 comments:

Men In Black said...

It doesn't take much to know its Snow, Christensen & Martineau who have represented the FLDS and Warren. From the bio of Reed Martieau, some might be curious to his place of birth?

Reed L. Martineau (Shareholder) born Colonia Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico,
April 13, 1932; admitted to bar, 1961, Utah. Education: Brigham Young
University (B.S., 1955); University of Utah (J.D., 1961). Commissioner,
National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws, 1989—.
Member: Salt Lake County (President, 1970-1971) and American (House of
Delegates, 1988-1996) Bar Associations; Utah State Bar (Bar Commission,
1981-1996; President, 1987-1988); American Law Institute; Western
States Bar Conference (Vice President, 2000-2001; President,
2001-2002); Jackrabbit Bar Association (Chancellor, 1995-1996).
Languages: Spanish. Practice Areas: Corporate Law; Finance; Real
Estate; Commercial Litigation.

Men In Black said...

From the St. George Spectrum of May 5th 2003, the Hildale City Attorney was Ron Thompson, his partner at the same time a Utah State Legislator.

The Spectrum May 5th 2003;
Thompson and Urquhart are partners at the law firm Thompson Awerkamp Urquhart, which has represented the city of Hildale for more than 20 years. Urquhart said he had handled municipal works for Hildale, but has dropped it since January to concentrate on his duties at the Legislature. In March, he voted for the child bigamy bill.

Thompson, however, said he is still willing to assist Hildale with municipal works.

"Religion has nothing to do with how they operate," he said. "The people have always been polite, their kids well disciplined."

Other than the practice of marrying child brides, Thompson added, he doesn't oppose the polygamists' "personal beliefs."

But, as Thompson was a former District Attorney of that county also sworn to uphold the title of his office, much as law enforcement is sworn in, some might of seen a conflict in his quotes to the newspaper. Thompson served on committee with SUPAC, the economic development commission of southern Utah exclusively with two other noteable lawmakers, U.S. Senator Orrin Hatch and Mike Leavitt! Lest we not forget the earlier statement, the same Leavitt nominated the Colorado City, City Attorney to Judge and as well the contested 2003 nomination of another Washington County District Attorney in Eric Ludlow, also to a judgeship post. They each knew the law so well as attorneys that they were made judges!

If there were laws violated and assuming these DA's understood the law, why would a governor reward those outside of polygamy, who violated their own "oath of Office" as facilitators to the FLDS?

Inquiring minds want to know?

Men In Black said...

Taken from the bio of the Colorado City, City Attorney;
Colorado City Municipal Attorney, Arizona 1991-
1979–Present - Member, Snow, Nuffer Engstrom, Drake, Wade & Smart
Civic Activity
Member, St. George Chamber of Commerce; Board Member (1982–1986); President (1985)
Candidate, St. George City Council (1979); Washington County Attorney (1982); Utah Senate District 29 (1992)
High Councilor, Bishop and Stake Presidency Counselor, St. George Utah College Stake, 1980–1985; 1987–1992; High Councilor, St. George West Stake, 1985–87; Bishopric Counselor, Bloomington Hills 6th Ward 1996-98
Chair, Taxpayers for Washington County, 1988
Chair, Utah State Bar Computer Advisory Committee, 1989
Member, Fifth District Court Judicial Nominating Commission, 1984-1988; 1992-1994
Member, Utah Supreme Court Special Task Force on the Management and Regulation of the Practice of Law, 1990-1991
Team Leader, Utah Attorney General's Regional Exchange Effort ("AGREE"), 1993-5
Team Co-Leader, Utah Attorney General's Safe At Home Program, 1995-
Founding Board Member, Virgin River Land Preservation Association, 1993-4; Chair and President, 1995-1996
Secretary, Washington County Democratic Party, 1994-1995
Commissioner, Utah State Bar, 1994-; Member of Executive Committee, 1996-
Member, Judicial Council Ad Hoc Committee Access to Electronic Court Records, 1995
Member, Governor's Impact Fee Resolution Group, 1995
Chair, Utah State Bar Internet Services Committee, 1995-
Chair, Utah Electronic Law Project, 1996-
Member, Utah Judicial Conduct Commission, 1997-2000; Vice Chair 1998-1999; Chair 1999-2000
Chair, Utah State Bar Long Range Planning Committee, 1997-1998
President-elect, Utah State Bar, 1999-2000
President, Utah State Bar, 2000-2001

I don't know, but when I read this, along with names like Orrin Hatch, Mike Leavitt, Ron Thompson and Steven Snow, I think of serious power players. President of the Utah Bar Association! Thats some serious heavy weight hitter...

But then lets look at Nuffers partner. Steven Snow of St. George, hmmmm..... Appointed as General Authority of the LDS and or mainstream Mormon Church, this is what really upset the Utah legislator I had had a conversation with.

So lets talk about the man or men behind the man in Warren Jeffs. Who has run interference and Why?

Men In Black said...

While many read the comments of a 2003 Town Hall meeting where US Senator Hatch became protective of Colorado City few saw or heard what followed. The St. George Spectrum story;

Help the Child Brides, asked Hatch if he knew girls as young as 13 and 14 were being forced into marriages with older men living in the nearby twin polygamous towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz. "I wouldn't throw accusations around unless you know they're true," Hatch cautioned Curran and another speaker, Sonja Blancke, who also questioned the senator on his position. "I'm not here to justify polygamy," Hatch said. "All I can say is, I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me evidence of children being abused there and I'll get involved.
Bring the evidence to me." Their comments came at a public meeting Hatch hosted at Dixie State College, during which the senator took questions on a variety of subjects from a small gathering of residents.

Later in a July Story in 2003 at the dedication of the Short Creek monument the Senators aide made a comment that sent up red flags!

The Spectrum;
Asked about polygamy at a town hall meeting in St. George in April, Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, said he needed evidence of abuse for any polygamy charges. Hatch said he would not "sit here and judge anybody just because they live differently than me."

Hatch had played the organ in a church building in Colorado City, said Jeannine Holt, who attended Saturday's ceremony representing Hatch.

"I shed a lot of tears putting myself in (the shoes of) the mother of children," said Holt, who has three kids.

While most gentiles are denied access to something as sacred as the meeting hall, the Senator played the Organ there???? Rulon actually uses Hatch in his text in his sermons by Rulon Jeffs, volumes 1 to 8, clearly the former prophet had identified a friendly at best relationship with the U.S. Senator from his history in the same area of the Wasatch Front (SLC).

Men In Black said...

A letter was sent to the Senator on April 26th of 2003, actually several letters, some going beyond the underage issue and the response came from the US Senators lawyer in;

Roger A. Livingston
Counsel to Senator Orrin G. Hatch

I am unable to post the letter do to how it was formatted, but can send it posibly by email or get help from the blog master.

The point is that when complying with the senators request, including with it the federal statutes violated the Senator instead distanced hinself from this issue.

I think, it would be easy enough to show that power players in poltically powerful positions have come in and out of this issue. The attorneys right now are those that need to be spotlighted for their role. Later I think a string about federal agencies might be worth reading as well. Warren may be riding on the coat tails of his fathers and Uncle Fred's political clout, but attorneys hired offered another kind of clout and that is worth some discussion.

Anonymous said...

MIB at the time the Orin Hatch played at the meeting hall the leadership was far different. They would allow people into there meeting house. They also allowed anyone to join there Sunday meeting as long as they were respectful and dress somewhat moderate.

Men In Black said...

But again, then there is the demand Orrin had for "bring me evidence" and when it arrived, he distanced himself from it, using his attorney as the point of contact. True Shurtleff was addressing some of the same issues, but much of it was interstate crimes under the law and clearly outside of the Utah AG's jurisdiction.

Anonymous said...

err...Jay, 2 words

cliff notes
:)

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

Colorado City is kind of like the Amish, but without any of the charm.

Anonymous said...

So, Warren got rid of the town zoo, did he?

Was there a big town Bar-B-Que that weekend?

Or did CJ's add a few more "specials"?

Anonymous said...

you awaken suddenly in middle of the night
you hear tires screech
a person scream
a dull "thunk"
more voices
tires again screeching away
you call the police

there's skid marks
blood on the road
but no 'body'

the cops say
"skids mark could have happened any time
blood could be from anywhere or thing
who knows?
...don't call again unless there's a body"
they leave
--------------

mr hatch
it's not our job to show the evidence.
mere concern or suspicion is enough
we're not allowed to investigate other people
that's what police, DA's, judges, lawmakers are for
you're Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee
you have "...friends in Hildale..."
you do nothing

hmmm.....

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

The FLDS has spent 7-10 million dollars trying to kick men off of their land in the last 20 years, using all these high dollar attorneys. For probably around 3-5 million they could have just cashed the men out. The current followers for Warren Jeffs should demand some kind of financial accounting of where all their money has gone and why.

Anonymous said...

prejudice n

1. opinion formed beforehand: a preformed opinion, usually an unfavorable one, based on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate stereotypes
2. the holding of ill-informed opinions: the holding of opinions that are formed beforehand on the basis of insufficient knowledge
3. irrational dislike of somebody: an unfounded hatred, fear, or mistrust of a person or group, especially one of a particular religion, ethnicity, nationality, or social status

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003.

Men In Black said...

Hmmm... There were drugs taken from Mr. Blacks operation and turned over to state investigators, where is there prejudice in reporting such?

Think about Mohave Minerals in the heart of Hildale, then ask yourself, who knew?

Maybe Mr. Hatch thought it was only about polygamy and underage brides! How much did the faithful really know?

MIB

Men In Black said...

Anonymous said...
The FLDS has spent 7-10 million dollars trying to kick men off of their land in the last 20 years,


Sounds like another class action to me!

What was it, 1.2 million the 22 familes spent on their 11 years in court? A Spectrum News article put the FLDS cost at more than 4 million in the same case. If devine wisdom determined the profits decision to use attorneys, instead of buying off the 22 families, then most certainly the faithful who have since left, should be asking if theit tithing was squandered?

weblog administrator said...

To onthestreet:
I know you have been banned from other boards and blogs. Stop clogging this blog up if you want to continue participating. Everyone here knows what has been posted. You don't need to repost. I'm asking you nicely to comply. Otherwise your posts will start disappearing. Understand?

Weblog Administrator

Anonymous said...

Onthestreet, I appreciate your comments and your example of sticking to your principles and not abandoning your testimony against all adversity. You are obviously very well versed in all the scriptures and I pity the soul that argues against you, for they continually contradict themselves against the written word. This is much more than I can say for myself.

AB

Anonymous said...

wow! mib, you are full of knowledge.

Anonymous said...

Well the lawyers that work for FLDS may be high powered, but they now have a real problem on their hands, an attorney that dosen't back down when dealing with racists such as Warren Jeffs.

Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center (a law frim that specializes in dealing with people like Warren Jeffs) is the attorney that will help take Warren Jeffs down.

Here's the bio of Morris Dees:

http://www.splcenter.org/center/history/dees.jsp

Warrens Jeffs made the mistake of coming here to Texas, he has drawn the attention of the Southern Poverty Law Center, they are very sensitive to racists in the southern states such as Texas, it's their business to take down racist persons & organizations such as the FLDS & Warren Jeffs.

The possiblity that sexual abuse of young girls in the FLDS may have occured will only make it easier for the SPLC to take ole Warren Jeffs down.

Bad move there Warren, should not have come here to Texas. You lose!

Men In Black said...

On The Street

I hate to be the one to tell you about tenants at will, but if you go back to the Manifesto and the law, there were provisions attached to being a polygamist. Under the law, now unenforced, a polygamist couldn't own property, vote or serve on a jury. The potential loss of the temple as property likely prompted the revelation.

Its interesting that the evictions have occured when some have rejected a faith that is technically illegal. Then the trust, UEP or Warren via the courts are demanding property rights protection and are calling those who have complied with the law, squatters and trespassers.

When a judge rules in the trusts favor, the judgement is right, but when the courts deem the trust wrong in gaining a financial benefit and ruled against it as "unjust enrichment", then the trust ignores the court order and violates the civil rights of the court declared victims.

What you are saying really is the law is anything the trust scribbles on a piece of paper and that the laws of the land can be ignored when they don't serve your interest. Kind of like having Ross arrested for trespass in his own house and a judge ordered his right to be there. Keep in mind that Saddam Hussein made that now famous quote about what the law is. Ignoring laws of the lands and operating as though a dictator, in a free society is what has got the FLDS labeled in the first place.

MIB

Maybe we should demand that the government enforce the property provision in the law and deny the trust ownership rights under Edmond-Tucker.

So street do you advocate breaking the law?

Men In Black said...

On The Street

I hate to be the one to tell you about tenants at will, but if you go back to the Manifesto and the law, there were provisions attached to being a polygamist. Under the law, now unenforced, a polygamist couldn't own property, vote or serve on a jury. The potential loss of the temple as property likely prompted the revelation.

Its interesting that the evictions have occured when some have rejected a faith that is technically illegal. Then the trust, UEP or Warren via the courts are demanding property rights protection and are calling those who have complied with the law, squatters and trespassers.

When a judge rules in the trusts favor, the judgement is right, but when the courts deem the trust wrong in gaining a financial benefit and ruled against it as "unjust enrichment", then the trust ignores the court order and violates the civil rights of the court declared victims.

What you are saying really is the law is anything the trust scribbles on a piece of paper and that the laws of the land can be ignored when they don't serve your interest. Kind of like having Ross arrested for trespass in his own house and a judge ordered his right to be there. Keep in mind that Saddam Hussein made that now famous quote about what the law is. Ignoring laws of the lands and operating as though a dictator, in a free society is what has got the FLDS labeled in the first place.

MIB

Maybe we should demand that the government enforce the property provision in the law and deny the trust ownership rights under Edmond-Tucker.

So street do you advocate breaking the law?

Wary Texan said...

Excellent point MIB!

Anonymous said...

If in living a higher law we offend a lower law, well then, so be it.

Anonymous said...

The higher law you follow rises only as high as you phallic oriented mentality.

Men In Black said...

Street

For us novices can you explain the theology that men with only one wife will have their's taken away in the next life? "In Light and Truth" page 10 chapter 2.

Now, where a man in this church says, I don't want but one wife, I will live my religion with one, he will perhaps be saved in the celestial Kingdom; but when he gets there he will not find himself in possession of any wife at all.

Can you explain this doctrine?

Anonymous said...

Jay, there was not one Elder that built on UEP Property that did not understand that they were tenants at will, that the property they built on did in fact belong to the UEP, and that their stay could be terminated by not upholding the laws and principles of the priesthood. We all took that risk knowing full well the consequences, and to further the cause of someone claiming they never knew, or thought they were above it, would be furthering a lie.

AB

Anonymous said...

11:06
Where do you draw the line between higher and lower laws? Is anything Warry says a higher law, higher than any law of the land? Can all laws of the land be selectively ignored? Is Warry always right and everybody else always wrong no matter what the subject?

Street: Please don't answer this blog. I'm not a fan of the BofM or preisthood, so you don't make any sense to me. Oh, and Street, I read an earlier blog that Warry kicked you out and you are trying to be perfect so he'll let you back in. If I believed any of your other BS then I'd have to believe that Warry can see right through your heart. And Street, he knows your heart, that's why he kicked you out, and he ain't ever letting you back in.

Anonymous said...

lol, original post, your do is suposed to be due

Men In Black said...

On the street
Again, in the book, In Light and Truth, page 24, chapter 2, I quote;
God said thou shall not kill; this is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted. A revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right no matter what it is, although we may not see the reasons thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God all could things will be added.

In all honesty can you explain the doctrine of "blood atonement", explaining the time and place that taking a life is justified.

Page 26 Chapter 2, wander not from it, with the Spirit of God upon you at all times. It will be your only protection when the judgments come first and worst upon this area where the house of God is established. From there it shall go as far as a whirlwind, to all nations. The wicked will be swept off the face of this land of North America to prepare the way for the coming of the 10 tribes, who will help us build the city and the temples.

Is Warren's Temple a part of the theology and prophecy mentioned in this 1994 hardback book?

Page 54, chapter 6; when a girl is taken out of her father's home and set by a man, she can become the property of the man she has been sealed to by the Holy Spirit of promise. And he is responsible for her even if she be a girl that has been untrained. It is his duty to take her and train her-- study her character and see to it that she is not trodden down or cast out. We have many among us who have been cast out. Some girls who have been set by Good man will not take their place. The Lord says there's nothing left for them but to be destroyed.

Can you explain this scripture?

When Venesa had fled to Canada, would this passage have applied to her?

There are several passages that interest me, that maybe you can explain.

MIB

Anonymous said...

Warren makes no laws that I know of. A higher law than the law of the land (government), would be a law of God, I think we could all agree. When the King passed a law that he, the king, was the only one to be worshipped, Daniel knew he could not comply and resorted to a higher law that stated "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me". These statements are just a reminder of why we have freedom of religion as a basic constitutional right. Of course, if our beliefs trample the civil human rights of others, then we need to take a step back and re-examine our evaluation, for it is a basic law of God that all people have their free agency.

I would also like to note that under the same time period that polygamists had no rights, black people had no rights as well.

AB

KEEPIN SWEEET!!! said...

WERE ANY OF THESE ATTORNEYS PRESENT IN THE CASE WHERE ONE OF TRUMANS BOYS WAS BUSTED IN ST. GEORGE FOR SELLING POT,WHICH HE SAID HE GOT FROM HIS DAD (MAYBE 12-15 YRS AGO)?
ANY COMMENTS ON THE DRUG TRAFFICKING AT THE AIRSTRIP IN C.C. AS TALKED ABOUT IN CENTENNIAL PARK?

Anonymous said...

AB
The thing the tenants at will were not prepared for was the change in theology. The FLDS should be called "The Church of the Changing Doctrine". Who knows what you will believe a couple of years from now. You'd fight back too if the rules of your game were changed in the fourth quarter, or if you had any balls.

But you know what, the change will come at you slow, one revy at a time. A little here, a little there. The only thing you will notice is having to make more excuses to yourself for your prophets behavior. I know that down inside it has to bug the sh_t out of you already.

truth- agreement with a standard or original, i.e., something that never changes.

Anonymous said...

Hey, A.B.
How do ya' like the new house? Does Warren know you're on this blog? Just wondering. Keep Sweet!

KEEPIN SWEEET!!!!!!! said...

HEY, MIB WHATS THIS BOOK,"IN LIGHT AND TRUTH? WHERE DOES IT COME FROM?

KEEEPIN SWEEEET!!! said...

IS AB SHORT FOR ALVIN BARLOW? IF SO DUDE, YOU NEED TO FIND YOUR CAJONES

Anonymous said...

I could care less if Warren knew I was on this blog. I'm an apostate but I do know the truth as a faithful member views it. The theology was never changed and you know it.

Men In Black said...

Well if lower laws are to be ignored, I can rest my case as to why the Colorado City Police need to be removed. Those of us who have studied the faith as gentiles understand that the trust believes in selective enforcement, but coming from those still within, qualifies what we have said for years.

Addressing tenants at will, if you go back to the law, under Edmond Tucker, the property protection rights would not apply. It's very selective, the idea that government should protect the rights of the UEP, Grant social services thereby financing an illegal lifestyle, but then ignore judgments in the same courts. The beneficiaries as stated when the trust was created gave those tenants the idea that they would live there forever. Under the law, making improvements that make the property more valuable, requires that the trust financially compensate those that build homes on the land, per the increase in value. If one chooses to leave the religion, deciding to be monogamous, to then be compelled to practice polgamy to stay, violates the tenets civil rights and the same religious freedom and protection the church is seeking. These tenants are then compelled to violate state and federal law in order to remain in good standing with the church, to remain on trust lands.

Under this theory, I would have to break the law in order to seek protection under the law.

Maybe you can answer the question of whether the UEP or FLDS church is a 501(c)3 Corp. which is for the public benefit. A501(c) 6 Corp. which is made up of voting members. If the trust is to receive exemptions as though a church and not a profit corporation, then it must abide by the laws of a charitable trust. The FLDS cannot have it both ways.

Anonymous said...

Like I said

AB

Anonymous said...

just wondering...

with all 'dat money
how much do they spend on other people outside their church?

...you know,

charities, soup kitchens, missionaries, hospitals, relief aid

the sort of stuff other churches and groups do?

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

11:49
There was a time when Edward Barlow was thought to be trafficking drugs out of the airport. As a result of this rumor, a place was made where police officers could watch the airport 24 hrs a day, which they did for possibly 3 months until it was determined to be speculation. A lot of drug trafficking happens south of Town on the Arizona Strip but is not affiliated with residents of C.C.

AB

Anonymous said...

Street-
You do stir up some interesting conversation, when you don't over quote.
OK, for your 9:38pm post.

-men off "their" land-
Warren tried to evict Spencer Johnson from his home. Johnson was one of the original homesteaders. Yes, "their" land

-eviction of tenants-
There was no tenant agreement signed. Boys were given lots to build on as if they were to spend their life there and raise a family. Why else would they sink their entire life force into building a home?

-violated the united trust according to Trust Agreement-
The trust was set up only to protect the land from forclosure in case a bank loan went into delinquecy. No loans, no loose homes. The trust was set up to help and protect the people, not to be used by a self appointed leader to cripple the people into complying with his unjust demands.

-if you will read that document carefully, ..... designates President of Trust as overseer-
Have YOU read that document? Or are you repeating what someone TOLD you was there? Or were you referring to the "new" version? The one that makes provisions to persicute the people.

Come on now, are you really doing your own reading and thinking? If not, you may not be getting your facts right. If so, Warren will for sure never use you. Actually, that could be a blessing. Oh yeah, he just wants your money.

Men In Black said...

KEEPIN SWEEET!!!!!!! said...
HEY, MIB WHATS THIS BOOK,"IN LIGHT AND TRUTH? WHERE DOES IT COME FROM?

I'm not sure how many books actually exist, I think I have 18 or 19 of them. Most of them were published between 1994 to 1997, they were authored by Rulon Jeff's and to challenge or deny them would be difficult for even the most faithful here. I rather doubt on the street will want to debate this text, page by page, as Warren may consider much of this text sacred. These books, were published at twin city publishing in Hildale, as the church has their own web press printing operation. In light and truth is almost 900 pages. Since the tenent of the faith revolves around polygamy most of the book goes about reinforcing this theology.

Leroy Johnson had six volumes of sermons, Rulon Jeff's had eight volumes of sermons, one book is called priesthood succession, there is priesthood articles, in light and truth which I'm reading from, there is volumes 14 through 16 of the student star the books used at the Alta to Academy, then purity in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, along with a few more. When you add this to about 40 cassettes of Warren Jeff's lecturing as the instructor at the Alta Academy, you have a pretty good grasp on the groups ideology.

Since blood atonement is discussed and since you are learning that God's law, is greater than man's law, you are getting an education on why authorities have been concerned with the groups teachings.

AB

Yes this is Jay! Good to see you are still hanging in.

Men In Black said...

Regarding the drugs, get real, did you really think William was converting iron ore tailings and cinders in to gold as he claimed? 50 pounds a day is what he demonstrated in a bait and switch presentation?

Before the building burned to the ground one Sunday morning, it was a happening place. Any one here want to talk about William?

Shall we go back to the days of that twin engine aircraft? Members unnamed at the moment said that they could roll $5,000. in one weekend into $15,000. with a trip to Texas or San Diego. I record these conversations, but I don't make them up!

Then in December 2000 someone told me of a drug buy and named names, I recorded that call too. They sent me to the FBI to ask for imunity from prosecution for them, which I did. Its very unusual to lie to the FBI about selling drugs just to get noticed. You people should have a "D" tattoo'd on your forehead, D for Denial! That one was 10 pounds of "pot". You can call it a renegade element, but the names given we all know. Selling to gentiles was OK, afterall they are headed to hell any way.

So who thinks W.P. was responsible for the fire? It was real inconvenient having Mohave Minerals burned to the ground. But then William moved down by Flora Tech in Hurricane, but that location didn't last long. Did I mention, what ever it was he was producing was given to state investigators? If we look up the registered agents of Williams businesses or check the names on the pay stubs, who else will we find?

What do you suppose he hired the faithful to work for him? No, but even ex employees talk, how do you think I know so much? Anybody go to Williams party house behind the present day Linn's market in Hurricane? The one on 1100 West, and what was it about 330 North? Come on give me a hand here! Forget the rumors and address what you can touch, taste and smell!

You want to debate facts, how about I read from Rulon Jeffs 1989 deposition, the one that Jethro Barlow attended, discussing the financial details of the church controlled holdings. Would you dispute the spoken word of the prophet? Opinions and even emotionally based religion is one thing, but the prophets own court deposition, notarized? Unless of course you plan to state he was lying to protect a higher law?

I don't mind a good debate, if I can use depositions, affidavits, recorded calls, investigation reports and so on. I am no match otherwise for the emotionally based "there is a higher law" stuff. I can read your theology books, but that doesn't mean I actually believe the arguments that get presented.

In Utah it was legal to record phone calls so I did, so now almost 5 years later, you can tell Sam Barlow that I recorded Lenore's conversation with him about Nichole. I do have to say he was really good, he talked in such a low whisper that it took enhancing technology to understand his half of the conversation.

I never made it a secret, I recorded calls, the AG, FBI, DEA, DPS, DFS, DA, Police, Sheriff, Legislators and more. The bigger issue is neither about polygamy or child brides alone, but more about an abuse of power and lies that event the faithful can't or won't recognize. Being ousted, then believing that it is your place to take it, while your wife and family are reassigned, is crazy and at that point its time society does what the ousted will not.

Regarding William I have a pay stub in front of me for $80.00 per hour that William paid his employee, it was unskilled labor, so what do you think William was paying for? Maybe he was protecting that rumor someone mentioned down by the airport?

Men In Black said...

Back to the String, a former federal attorney? Sounds like someone who would really know the law, enough to threaten me in writing and on letterhead for reporting abuse to law enforcement agencies;

From June 1988 to December 1989, Mr. Parker served as Associate Deputy Attorney General on the immediate staff of the Deputy Attorney General of the United States in Washington, D.C. In that position, he was primarily responsible to exercise the Deputy Attorney General's oversight function for the Lands and Natural Resources Division and the Civil Division. He reviewed and made recommendations concerning settlements of Civil Division, Lands Division, and other cases in which the settlement amount exceeded the settlement authority of the Assistant Attorney General ($750,000). Mr. Parker made policy recommendations regarding Departmental activities as appropriate, and reviewed recommendations to the Solicitor General regarding appeal of cases.

Anonymous said...

I have about 500 tapes of Warren's talks in different meetings, school assemblies, etc. Anyone want to buy them?

Men In Black said...

How much? $$$

KEEEPIN SWEEEET!!! said...

how about copies of the tapes?

KEEPIN SWEEET!!!!!!! said...

who exactly is William?
I knew of people in Centennial park with video of planes landing at the airstrip in the middle of the night, then a procession of cars from Colorado City, an exchange and the plane taking back off, sometimes twice a week.


My opinion only:the Barlow Boys were up to there necks in drug trafficking, and are scared Warren will rat them out.

Did the barlows get into the drug biz while getting medications for Leroy Johnson in Mexico?

atar said...

MIB

Who are you? How have you come into possession of these things, and know the things that you do?

You are intelligent, articulate, have great CYA skills and come with guns blazing. The info is amazing - but how did you get it from this group?

Perhaps I missed the one where you introducted yourself - and the blog isn't searchable (is that a possiblity Web Admin?) and the amount of information to copious.

I'm interested in seeing some of the information - or hearing. What sort of price are you asking?

Also, I was just in Hurricaine - Everything was closed - the grocery - the espresso stand - only the gas station was open. It could have been a Sunday - is that why?

ATAR

atar said...

OMG - I didn't read my post - apologies for all the grammar and spelling

Men In Black said...

ATAR

I am not the one selling the tapes, but more than willing to buy them.

MIB

PS I lived in Hurricane over 9 years and yes they roll up the sidewalks on Sunday.

Men In Black said...

There are several points that I will take issue with, a conflict of interest, whether law enforcement or in the courts. When Lenore Holm, went into court on August 22nd of 2000, the judge McKay Heaton was presiding. What the judge did not identify, was that technically the witness for the UEP, Truman Barlow, was his brother-in-law. The judge's sister was married to the former prophet in Leroy Johnson, then reassigned to Truman upon the prophets death.

The issues where a conflict of interest existed, were many, but few identified such in any kind of advance disclosure. The judge referred the case to the Kingman courts, but did not identify his relationship with the witness representing the UEP.

There are several more conflicts like this I would like to point out, in future postings.

MIB

Anonymous said...

MIB-- Do you put your puzzels together with a rubber hammer? If the piece looks like it might almost fit somewhere... just hammer it into place. Close enough!

Men In Black said...

Back when Vanessa was considered under threat, when she fled Hildale and resurfaced in Canada, the subject of blood atonement became an issue. Back then, the theology was either rumors or the word from apostates who had left. When the boundary County Sheriff contacted the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Winston was called in an interviewed about the safety of Vanessa. Per the media story released by the RCMP, the theology of blood atonement was denied. Further the RCMP was told that Vanessa was not under threat. In the January issue of Share The Light, the author spoke of Vanessa being under threat by Warren. The discrepancies between what the RCMP reported and the January 30th newsletter have since become a conflict.

Since the public was told blood atonement was not a tenent of the faith, I would like tp quote passages from Rulon Jeff's 1997 book, first edition, titled "Purity in the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" page 70, chapter titled "Blood Atonement";

And suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his bloodshed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, "shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the gods?"

All mankind loves themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his bloodshed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. We love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that can not be atone for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?

On the following page, I quote;
I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I've seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the devil, until our elder brother Jesus Christ raises them up-- conquers death, hell, and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood has been spilled, it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nation's forbid this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force.

This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if you want salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. Any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind.

Since this book is copyrighted and authored by the former prophet Rulon T. Jeff's, for anyone who says blood atonement was not a part of the teachings, would be in opposition to Prophet. Since Vanessa had rejected the union, the prophet Warren Jeff's had assigned to her, was this grounds to hold this threat over her. Since the prophet said this would be practiced one day, when exactly is that day.

I understand the concept of matters in this life are superceded by those in the after life and the protection of the soul from eternal damnation, but to what extreme are these passages used to threaten and intimidate the churches members? "or ye shall be damned" pretty much removes free choice and without question such a threat to a child brings about choice, based on fear.

The law of chastity and the penalties for those who stray, fall pretty close to the penalties above or so I can quote!


MIB

Men In Black said...

Anonymous said...
MIB-- Do you put your puzzels together with a rubber hammer? If the piece looks like it might almost fit somewhere... just hammer it into place. Close enough!

4/27/2005 4:11 PM

Nope! Don't need a hammer! I have the same text and I've heard the same sermons, read or listened too. Then I followed the paper trail or made it.

Why don't you ask me a question of substance? To name the sex offenders in Colorado City that don't appear on the states registry. The names of Rulon's former wives? Warren's wives? Who was kicked out and why? Who was a molestor, but not yet exposed? Having been lied to about Vanessa and having been the one who maintained dialog with Law Enforcement durring that period, I would rather transcribe the dialog from recorded conversation to prove a truth than play with your rubber hammer.

Your remarks are like ex Mayor Dan's, his rebuttal to the St. George Spectrum newspaper was "what can you expect from a guy who drinks his own bath water", that was original! That was after he lied to the media about Lenore making no attempt to pay taxes to the UEP. Of course I have two returned checks from Rod Parker that came with letters on that firms letterhead. Lenore didn't have a checking account and dispite the UEP wanting to be paid in cash, the IRS suggested otherwise. I have the letters and the checks and the St. George Newspaper article maybe you can use your rubber hammer to hammer out a different story?

Tell you what, you ask me a question that can be verified and then its my turn!

MIB

Anonymous said...

Actually drinking your own bathwater is what you do. And you drink Flora's too. If you weren' so busy doing it, you would have caught the metaphorical implications.

Anonymous said...

5:12

our dog
she barks at and engages any stranger who approaches
she acts not by reason but by instinct
she has no capacity to reason
but she is loyal

she drinks toilet water

we have to keep the lids closed

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

Like reading this blog... aaarrrggg.
Why do we do it?

Anonymous said...

Hey, MIB, how about $1 per tape. I am sure you can find a great many audio clips you can send to different web sites. Warren preaches some really corny stuff on sexual relations, and having babies and all the training with the young girls.

Men In Black said...

Some how with each response, nothing new of substance is added.
Metaphor's and talk of God's law overriding state and federal laws is what got us here. From "blood atonement" to a racist doctrine now exposed, is there any wonder that splinter factions have occured over the past few decades.

Give me space and time to post enough documentation and baseless comments will become a childish defense. The idea that the faithful were tenants at will was redefined in letters that Rulon sent out certified and returned signed receipt in June of 1987, about the time he was passed the mantle by LeRoy.

In a signed affidavit by Harold Blackmore in March 1988, I quote;
The affiants further say: After LeRoy S. Johnson assumed leadership of the John Y. Barlow group, strange doctrines began to be promulgated. Strong emphasis was put upon the idea that all women belonged to him as God's only true representative on earth and was receiving constant direct revelations from God and that he, alone, could tell a woman where God wanted her to be "placed". We resented such doctrine but were pressured into letting him marry our girl, Lorna, to a man she did not want. Great heartache and sorrow resulted. This was in 1962.

About this time, Johnson told us how Sam Barlow, whom we had never met, had an altercation with some ranchers on the "Arizona strip" and that one of them had struck him with some kind of the whip across the face. Johnson was a foster father to this John Y. Barlow family and expressed great pride in how Sam "stood up to the fellows and was going to bring a suit against them". He went on to say that they needed to get one of their own people to become a deputy sheriff in short Creek to become a buffer between them and the "enemy". He said he thought Sam would make a good one and had told him to volunteer and work for nothing for a while, if necessary, until the county would accept him for the job.

The rules and doctrine changed with each new leader, each time becoming more extreme. The placement doctrine, came along after the original establishment in short Creek. This is also true, of the tenants at will concept presented in writing after the fact by Rulon T. Jeff's.

I will read and quote from a letter signed by Rulon T. Jeff's and dated July 13, 1987;
to all the people reciting upon United effort property:
As you know and as was explained to you in great detail when you became a resident on the property, you are tenants at will and reside on the property at the pleasure of the trustees.

Some or all of you have made improvements to the property with the consent of the administration of the trust. Any such voluntary improvements become part of the land and are not to be moved, transferred, demolished or assigned to other occupants without the consent of the United effort plan.

The above policies have been in effect since the creation of the United effort plan and this letter is not intended to represent any change but merely the written clarification of pre-existing policy.

Since the incorporation of both Hildale and Colorado city certain additional formalities are required before any improvements can be constructed on the property located in either of those towns. The United effort plan is most supportive of the governments of those towns and desires that all of the ordinances with regard to building permits and inspections be complied with. The United effort plan will require that building permits be issued by the proper authority before any improvements are made on the property. As the residents have no authority to improve the land without the consent of the United effort plan, the application for each building permit must be approved by one of the agents for the plan and we are notifying the towns of Hildale and Colorado city of this fact and request that they not grant any building permit unless approved by an agent.

The agents of the trust authorized to approve applications for building permits are the trustees of the plan: Rulon T. Jeff's, Fred M. Jessop, LeRoy S. Jeff's, Harley J. Harker, Truman I. Barlow, James K. Zitting and Winston Blackmore.

The willful violation of any of the policies set forth above shall constitute grounds to terminate the violator's tenancy at will on the property.
Very truly yours,
Rulon T. Jeff's president of United effort plan by order of the Board of Trustees.

By example in the wording, those who had not been under any written contract were now being notified in writing of the UEP intent. Up until now, permits were not always required. A guy like Milton Holm who had begun construction in the late 1970's was now under a change in the implied original contract, but per the courts, the trust was not granted a right to expect or allow improvements, where by upon eviction they could seize the property without paying reasonable compensation, under "the unjust enrichment" clause. Those begining construction and approved by LeRoy Johnson had entered into a verbal loose agreement with others than were now identified in the letter above.

Both the rules and the doctrine had become fluid between each new president. The one-man rule was ushered in by Rulon T. Jeff's.

MIB

Men In Black said...

Anonymous said...
Hey, MIB, how about $1 per tape. I am sure you can find a great many audio clips you can send to different web sites. Warren preaches some really corny stuff on sexual relations, and having babies and all the training with the young girls.

4/27/2005 7:44 PM

If you can request the webmaster to play middleman, I'm sure we can work this out.

MIB

Men In Black said...

It would be a long quote, but based on a criminal investigation by the RCMP in Canada, conducted by Constable Lee-Anne Gregor of the Creston Detachment, I could tell you what the RCMP actually knew in July of 1990.

There was a sex crimes investigation that led to a trial and conviction in Bountiful and Lee-Anne was very thorough.

MIB

Anonymous said...

The point is that it's damn good thing that MIB's rubber hammer isn't a gavel because he is so full of bathwater now that is predjudices preclude his better judgement.

What if... for example; some of the so called evidence he is hammering on didn't make his case? Then he would just call it some kind of cover-up conspiracy.

Men In Black said...

Another issue, is the swindling that took place with national land Corp. of which Rulon T. Jeff's was the bookkeeper. This is the business that defrauded Harold Blackmore out of land and assets. I have a copy of the "Certificate of Indefeasible Title" No. 73022-I, from certificate number 63948-I, date of registration January 8th 1948, this is to certify that Jerold Ray Williams, Camp Lister, B.C. (farmer). For land situated in the Nelson assessment district, the southeast quarter (S.E. 1/4) of the northeast quarter (N.E. 1/4) of section Five (5), of the lot Eight Hundred and Twelve (812), Kootenay District, Plan Seven Hundred and Thirty (730). The original certificate was never signed off by Harold?

Some really clever investigative journalist needs to investigate the National Land Corporation to see whether this original deed was replaced as lost or forged? Those in Canada may well be the real squatters if property laws really matter!

Harold Blackmore was approached by Louis Barlow and Jack Knudson, to create a real estate enterprise. Harold put up the land as assets in order to offer or create stock. The idea was to then sell the stock, but the intent appeared to be more about fleecing poor Harold. This occured in 1963, but in reality Louis & Jack had aleady incorporated this enterprise on Sept. 29th, 1961 two years earlier, making the approach to begin an enterprise with Harold's land a roost.

If someone like Associated Press wants to look into this I have more details and can arrange to show the original "Certificate of Indefeasible Title" issued by the Canadian Government.

MIB

Men In Black said...

Street

Enough of the pieces must of fit, if we have to believe Parker speaking on behalf of Warren Jeffs. According to Parker, Warren Jeffs moved to Texas to escape, what was it prosecution or persecution? I don't think the residents of El Dorado Texas have seen the humor in the fact that Warren thought Texas would go easier on him or his dictatorial leadership.

Maybe you need to ask the Texas locals how funny his relocation is? What is sad is the distruction that he has left in his wake. He's gutted the economy of Colorado City and has done more human damage than anything Flora or I could of done.

Defending what amounts to "organized crime" as traditional family values, where wives and children are reassigned is not likely to gain to much sympathy.

A curiousity, after Dan's wives were reassigned and he was told to repent, had he of been forgiven, would he ever of had his wives and children returned? Maybe he would of been offered the wives and children of another, the next man found out of favor. You can joke about those who are more interested in the victims, but as a victim its sad when one victim degrades another.

Have patience and we will see whom the jury believes! But having a sense of humor is good, it may be the only thing you will ever own. Take good care of it.

MIB

Anonymous said...

Maybe puzzles aren't your calling after all MIB. Maybe you should be writing novels, where you can research all these factoids out and weave them carefully into an intriguing story.

That way it doesn't really matter if your conclusions are irrelevant. You can be the Big Hero... All the bad guys get what they deserve and you can and have Flora in the end.

Seriously though, nobody is defending any of this injustice that is obviously happening. What we object to is the damage done by all the lies and conjecture. That will only create more innocent victims.

Men In Black said...

Well as Winston said; "always be honest". I suppose that depends on the information you have at the time. MIB means Men In Black, its something for those that believe everything is a conspiracy, you know that little known agency with black vans and helicopters, ha..ha..

Then of course if you follow the profile name fincenMIB the prior letters stand for; Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) which is a real government agency, that is under the umbrella of the Dept. of The Treasury. They are at; www.fincen.gov/

We all came from somewhere first, I use to work for the Los Angeles street gang program and was a member of CGIA in California, as I was a member of UGIA when I lived in Utah. Yearly we had training seminars hosted by LACSD and BATF, F.I.N.C.E.N. use to send employees to the training. While living in Utah half the state loved that conspiracy stuff, so fincenMIB seemed perfect. The agency has 200-300 employees, no helicopters, alot of computer firewalls and the ability to follow the money, on and off shore. They hire computer geeks, with coke bottle thick eye glasses.

Don't worry I don't lose to much sleep, but I do find it sad that so many have been hurt, but in truth, much of the problems I have seen documents on had little to do with either Jeffs and more to do with the greed of individuals.

I am of course who you say, I realize we have crossed paths before.

MIB

Men In Black said...

The St. George spectrum article I had referred to, written by Loren Webb, dated September 2nd 1987, I will quote from;
others include; Phil Jordan of the federal drug enforcement administration, Harold Pershall, former Mojave County undersheriff, former Mojave County Sheriff S.O. "Bill" Richardson and Dave Rathbone, former Washington County Sheriff Ken Campbell, Bill Broadbent of Utah State family life services, Washington County West side justice of the peace Mike Dobson, former Washington County Justice of the peace Willard Farr, Fredonia Marshall Mark L. Johnson, for Mojave County Attorney Richard Albrecht, St. George Police Department part-time animal control officer Francis Kelly, iron County Sheriff Ira Schoppmann, Utah family life services official Charles Sullivan, Kane County Sheriff Joe Gonzalez, former St. George Police Department officer Bill Maggard, St. George Police Department officer Rick Utterback, he'll Bill Fire Chief Joseph I. Barlow Jr., Kaibab tribal police Chief Danny bullets, Utah division of wildlife resources conservation officer Gary McKell, Colorado city Marshal Leon Johnson, retired Coconino County Sheriff Deputy Cecil cram, Utah organized crime and criminal information Bureau officer Mike Hanks, former Arizona highway patrolman Ralph Shortzer, Arizona Highway Patrol trooper Keith Judd, Arizona Department of public safety official Bob Rehm, Kennett city police Chief Bill Blaisdell, Mojave County Sheriff Department Greg Adair and his wife Esther, St. George oil distributor Dan Schmutz, former Utah State Representative sid Atkin, Utah State Representative Ray Schmutz, Las Vegas Metro police officer Ron Marshall and Joe Clark Robinson, Washington County Sheriff's Sergeant Rymal Hinton, former Kane County Sheriff and current Washington County Sheriff's Deputy Norman Swapp, federal alcohol tobacco and firearm officer Jim Gober and reserve Mojave County Sheriff Deputy Nolan Ashman.

These were examples of the Who's Who who had endorsed Sam Barlow in the Arizona Department of public safety investigation. The violation of Sam Barlow's oath of office, along with the endorsements of public officials, on letterhead and in affidavits, is an example of how the abuse of power, was able to continue.

MIB

Anonymous said...

I will tell you this: you may hate us for what we believe. History does indede repeat itself. I think it is an honor to the men in law who have defended us. It is not written any place, that you are entitled to hate polygamists or to make laws agaisnt them. It was polygamist who settled this country, from Texas over. I have listened to people critazise my people from the day of my birth. You do speak of your own character. If you would petition any one to destroy a people becouse of there religion, you have degraded yourself to the worst condition of humanity. You have fallen below the law of Moses. You have fallen below the law of Christ. You have lowered yourself lower than Lucifer. You have enlisted upon your self the worst condition known to man. To be mocked by devils.
To the one who threatened street: I hope you get in to freak control manegment classes. You are as entitled to not read this forum as any one. Can't handle the heat, don't pick up the coal.
William Blak had been dealing drugs for a long time. These Barlows also. There have been child molesters with a slap on the wrist, why there victums are institutionallized and branded as weird. Some of these men, the state did not even tag. Cops are guppies. They take there orders from the higher ups. It is the state of arizonia and utah, that did not uphold the law. It is common knowledge that Truman Barlow did drugs under cover of his resteraunt. The last girl I heard tell this sad tale, Died in St. George, from a doctor mistakenly stitching up her bowls. They exploded.
If and herbllist had done this they would have been put away for life. Yet this Doctor, said, "well oops.
And William Black conveniently slipped into mexico. Why what a convenence. He seen the light. he decided to not be a polygimist. I guess we will overlook his grossness.
And you people critazise us for the ones who had upheld law for us honestly. If the law was totaly honest, they would remove all these squatter scum from our lands. What man or women out there in the so called real world would let a man squatt on your land. I bet you would shoot him. What insanity. We only make covnents to not fight. We make covnants to love. and the law takes advantage of that. Pick up the sord you b------ If it is blood you seek God will give it to you. WE have been driven since the day Joeseph had his first vision. The devil stirred up the people to Kill the Prophet Joeseph. He and his Brother was murdered in cold blood.
These people died the most horrible death. Blood attonment was exicuted in there case. It was not man who put this sentance on them. It was God. Men watched. The agoney of these men, were as Christ suffered. His attonment no longer aplied and they had to pay the penilty of there own sins. A nurse had to walk in backward adn cover one man. His flesh literally fell of his bones before he died. There is a consiquence instilled upon all men. It is put forth from God. NO one escapes this Judgement. You have aright to do any thing you like. Just be sure you are big enough to accept the consiquiences of your actions.
Some of you may contend that murders will be saved by Jesus attonment. Tis' impossible. They have forfitted there right to life. You may hate us. You may kill us. You may threaten us. What will be diferent than the dishonset liers in times of old. and all men fell or rose by the choises they made. JUST BE SURE YOU ARE READY TO DEAL WITH THE CONSIQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS. nO MAN IS SO POWERFUL, THAT THEY LIVE FOREVER. tHIS IS A UNIVERSAL LAW. Tho men may tinker with sperm, they have not been able to create life. This is Gods right. He is the one that gave us all life. He did not segrgrate us, tho he did make us different. ARE YOU GREATER THAN GOD, TO DECIDE SOME ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THE RIGHTS OF HUMANITY. Be yu Texans or Utahns or Arizoniaians. You can not escape the Law of christ. We won the right to humanity the day we were born.

Anonymous said...

"strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel"

Anonymous said...

To MIB 8:56 PM:

In regard to Jack and Louis mistreating Harold Blackmore, there's a whole lot more to the story.

They initially promised Harold stock in National Land and made him Board member and President. The original offering circular (Prospectus) had Harold's picture in it. They promoted Harold into believing they would develop his Canadian property into recreational parcels with a central hunting club facility.

As soon as they got what they thought was marketable title, Harold was persuaded to move to Short Creek and run work projects.

They (Jack & Louis) kept switching payment promises and Harold kept getting angrier. To get Harold off the National Land Board, Jack had his (Harold's) signature photographed and sent to Salt Lake Stamp for a rubber stamp to be made. Then Jack took the signature stamp and and put it on a document that was in fact Harold's official resignation from National Land. Of course he didn't tell Harold this and when Harold was shown the document at his deposition he was flabbergasted--not having remembered ever signing his resignation. Jack could not produce an original document for the deposition because the rubber stamp signature betrayed itself, so he made a copy wherein the stamped signature was undetectable.

Each time Harold threatened to sue Jack would appease him with some worthless stock or lava rock property. The farmland (?) north of Blackfoot Idaho was a good example of Jack's treatment of Harold--320 acres of pure lava rock with several years of back taxes owed. Harold took it sight unseen based on Jack's description of the farmland.

Harold was furious when he found out how worthless the Idaho property was so Jack had to give him two lots in Afton Wyoming. Now we all know how beautiful Star Valley Wyoming is right, but when Harold did a title search on these lots later, he discovered that they had been sold eighteen times to different unsuspecting buyers, two times in one day. There was no way any title company would insure title to these multi-ownered lots.

Harold Blackmore was an honest and good human being who was severely maligned and misrepresented to the community. Obviously his honesty was no match for Jack and Louis. Guess who the CPA was while all this took place? You guessed it--the man who invented the one-man-doctrine, Rulon T. Jeffs.

Interestingly enough, Brother Johnson and the rest of the Council had no knowledge of the tactics used by Jack and Louis to get possession of the Canadian property. They never would have approved such dishonest promotion and Harold wouldn't have been so bitter towards them if others hadn't mistreated him so severely.

Anonymous said...

MIB why dont you take all your evidence and bring charges to these people? Is it because this information wouldnt stand up in court? I am so sick of all the half truths if there is any validity lets prosecute.

Anonymous said...

Please MIB,Can you provide names
and details of Uncle Rulons wives?
I mean the young girls warren took over?Also since you seem to be very
knowledgable How are Rulons,Trumans,Louis and Uncle Roys
wives all related?I know Roy married at least 2 of Barlow sisters.I also think Rulons first 2wives are Edson Jessops sisters?But Warren's mother is a Steed?Who are Warrens wives?I seem to remeber
He is listed as being the father of
an underage Steed girl child?Is this incest?

Anonymous said...

Also Men in Black,can you tell how many children Roy,Rulon,the different Barlow Brothers have?And also Is Trumans first wife named Karen?

Anonymous said...

The Southern Poverty Law Center has released it's report on Warren Jeffs and FLDS which it calls a rabid racist hate group.

Has qoutes from Randy Mankin, Sheriff Doran, and author Krakauer.

"But no matter where any charges may be filed, Krakauer predicts "the drama's going to be played out in Texas," calling Eldorado "ground zero in the effort to bring Jeffs to justice."

See link to read enire article:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=877

Anonymous said...

Truman's first wife is named Karen.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am REALLY looking forward to getting all this accumulation of fertilizer off to the archive and start over fresh with a new month.

ATAR said...

Anon 11:56

What a load of verbal diahrea - yikes. And it made about as much sense as onthestreet - on a good day.

MIB has made statements that none of you can refute in any way other than to claim 'it's not true' stomp your feet, claim persecution, and whine about his lies (using really bad grammar and atrocious spelling).

But this comment by Anon 11:56

"Some of you may contend that murders will be saved by Jesus attonment. Tis' impossible. They have forfitted there right to life."

Waves the FLDS freak alert flag REALLY HIGH


US Law (law of the land) - Yeah that's true your right to life can be forfeited by your voluntary choice to take a life. That would be called the 'death penalty'

Gods Grace is completely separate and has nothing to do with the laws of the United States. If a person murders someone else and asks for forgiveness - God sent his son Jesus to take the 'sins of the world', HIS blood is enough (otherwise what was the point).

I would like to hear you tell God that his son Jesus death was not enough.

And stop whining. If you can refute what MIB states with any kind of documentation, or mental clarity - please do so. I don't see that happening - instead - these crazed 'mental patient' utterances that spew out random threats, whines, fake scripture, and prophecies (at least put them in quotes and document who stated that murderers can't be forgiven by God).

C'mon - you don't ACTUALLY think you sound sane do you?

onthestreet said...

Atar! Come on, man. "God's grace NOTHING? You got more intelligence than that! God's grace has everything to do with U.S. law. It is because of God's grace, that there IS a U.S., and that there IS a law, and that he created you and all things, ALL things. Hell, man, he even created hell and the devil, and the laws that come from him, to try man, to see if they will serve him or the adversary of their souls.

How many believe that God's grace is nothing! Go ahead, show your colors, black or blue.

atar said...

There is NO EXCEPT. His grace is sufficient, his blood enough.

on the street says

"Christ's blood saves ALL, except those who crucify him afresh"

Where is that verse?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved".

Does THIS sound familiar?

Clarification (for those who can't read a sentence) Gods grace functions completely independent of the 'law of the land'. Meaning. His grace is the same in Italy as it is in Israel because it has nothing to do with the administration of justice under the different laws of those countries. That seems very easy to understand but perhaps your blinders are on too tight.

ATAR

Anonymous said...

Fascinating cult-link ,Atar,Every Flds habit, virtue ,attribute,described,except the devotion to convert others.Does anyone know of any Flds
converts?Are all these people Born
and raised in the group?Here in northern Utah we have the A.U.B.a group similar to Flds,most appear to be converted LDS apostates.How
are A.U.B.,Flds,related?

Anonymous said...

to anon 9:56
the AUB is from a split off from the group that happened in the early 1950's,due to the appointment of Rulon Allred, whom the other council members opposed.
The FLDS is a "church" organized, and filed with the state in the late 80's by Rulon Jeffs.It is a splinter of the larger "priesthood group" that all the different polygamous groups can trace back to into the 30's and 40's. AUB, centennial park, naylors, Kingstons, etc all are splinters off the original gathering of polygamists in the 30's and 40's

Isn't it funny that all the groups claim authority to work in Gods name, but none live the first principles of the gospel?

Anonymous said...

Hey, could one of y'all lovely fellers start a new thread called "Just the Facts, Ma'am"?
I am interested in knowing just that: Numbers, names, who has remarried whom, etc. without a lot of editorializing and name calling. I would really like to know what has happened to some of my relatives whose families have been "rearranged" as it were. If anyone can help out, please do so.

Anonymous said...

Every time the leader has passed on, since Joseph Smith, the group has divided or splintered into two or more other groups. Anyone following "the man" should take a good hard look at what your fundamentals actually represent.

Christ said:
"Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life. But they are they which testify of ME."

Anonymous said...

mib,
it's obvious you didn't know Harold Blackmore.
once I had some seasoning that had rocks in it. it tasted o.k., but was pretty hard to chew.

Faithful Woman said...

There have been a few limited FLDS converts till Warren took control. Rulon said words to the effect that we aren't out to get new converts. Warren told them no, such conversions end in appostacy anyway.

Faithful Woman said...

There have been a few limited FLDS converts till Warren took control. Rulon said words to the effect that we aren't out to get new converts. Warren told them no, such conversions end in appostacy anyway.

ATAR_i said...

What is FLDS taught about missions?

Native Texan said...

Yes, I am also curious about this.

It has been my observation over the years that the LDS church is very proactive in converting people to their faith. However, some of the posts I have read from people who seemingly represent the FLDS give the impression that they are not enthusiastic about (or trusting of) people on the outside.

They seem willing to share what they believe, but I don't detect an openness in allowing outsiders to actually join.

Can anyone give a proper perspective?

ATAR_i said...

Yes, and even if someone did want to join - would they even be allowed to? Suppose through no prostheletizing of theirs someone wanted to join - where would they go (since there are no meetings in Colorado city), and the people are so suspicious of outsiders.

The only physical presence of an FLDS temple is the one being built in Eldorado - I doubt a newcomer could get there.

So - beyond even missions - what about people even just being allowed to join?

knockout said...

Hey, guys: Don't you know? You almost have to be born into it, at this point (in the history of events), and certainly cleaned up in you heart and mind to the point that you can be born again.

As far as tromping in there and feasting your eyes on beauty just to satisfy the eye, forget it. That is one unique church, I know, and at this point so should everyone else.

I guess I won't go into any details. I saw what you all did to Street for going into details.

knockout said...

I loved his posts, every one of them. I read them all, and he went into some real details, granted. I didn't know that was offensive.

Hey, didn't he challenge you, to the point that you really had to think, so much that your blood curdled, to the point of kicking him right out of the forum.

DAMN SHAME!

Anyway, to answer your question about joining: At your rate, forget it.

ATAR_i said...

Knockout:

I wasn't actually asking for me. Although I have these scandelous dreams about being married to a old man with saggy skin and flaky dry patches that I can peal off when I get bored. But despite the allure of that persistent dream, and the knowledge that I could live with dozens of children - I just have to deal with the fact that I can never live that dream (hold on, I need a kleenex here).

But seriously - my question really is...Does anyone really CHOOSE to live that life

I don't really miss street - because I didn't really understand him most the time - but you - knockout - you need to stay! I like your spunk and I'm sure we disagree - but that's ok - because I at least know why.

I'm guessing your a girl?

Stinger said...

Come on streety, you could have at least changed your name to fruity instead of knockout.
PS What does stimskey stand for? I noticed you had it in your email address back when you where known as "fruity", now you have it listed as your blog in your profile.

Atar, you wont get anywhere trying to guess street/knockout/fruity/stimskey's gender. It's some kind of holy secret.

Who know's what evils lurk in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows! Buah hahahahahahaha

ATAR_i said...

OK - Stinger - which photo are you in on your website?

I won't get into gender with knockout then - I was just curious.

Stinger said...

I am actually the one you don't see. I take all the pictures. If you go to www.sharethelight/gallery/rodeo2005 I'm what passes for the rodeo clown.

ATAR_i said...

Stinger -

I bought a Digital Rebel last year and am *lovin it* what kind of camera do you use? I'm still not doing well on taking the fast shots - and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong (think I should read the directions?)

P.S. love the hair!

Stinger said...

atar,

I use a Fujifilm Finepix. I've had it for a couple of years. Probably should upgrade to a better quality one but there are so many other electronics on my list. Thanks about the hair. Our sound tech misplaced one of his fingers a couple of days before the rodeo so I had to make myself the joke since I couldn't tell any jokes. It was probably for the best, anyway.

ATAR_i said...

Yikes - did they happen to find that finger in some chili somehwere???

Are you FLDS in Canada? I'm just to darn curious for my own good - It's a fault.

Stinger said...

Yes, I am from Canada. As for the curiosity, at least you're asking questions. Most people form their own assumptions with out bothering to see if it is the truth.

Stinger said...

Oh, about the finger, it was a work related misplacing.

ATAR_i said...

Stinger

Well, I admit - I might sometimes be one of them. I am humbled that sometimes I jump to conclusions in my perception of anothers life choices.

In my line of work, I have had to work hard to care for those with very disparate backgrounds from mine, and it was this experience more than any other, which initially brought me to my knees. I had judged others as less worthy of Gods love than myself. But in one of those moments, I realized that Gods loved these people.

I do not consider women like myself, so much different than the wife of a polygamist in many ways. Were I the caregiver for so many children - I cannot say that I would not lose my temper (and my sanity). If I had to watch the children of my husbands other lover, I cannot say I would not show favoritism.

I cannot understand/believe that it could be fulfilling for a woman to live in that situation. I cannot see it - perhaps my own upbringing makes it totally incomprehensible. I wish there were women on here - who might be able to shed some light on how you get to the place they are. <----again - curious

Do you have children?
What is Share the light?

Stinger said...

Atar,
I have three children, a boy and two girls. Also, I only have one wife. We don't all have plural wives. Share the light is the web site of our church. We are the ones in Canada that chose not to give up our religion and follow after warren's "new and higher" teachings. If you go to the home page of the website, www.sharethelight.ca, there is a link to our news letter that would give you a pretty good idea of who we are and what we believe. From what I have noticed, a polygamous marriage pretty much works the same as a monogamous one. There are people that love the lifestyle they have, and yet there are some that get into a marriage and then find it doesn't work out for them. A divorce can be just as messy in our church as it can in any other part of the world, with a spouse ready to say whatever they need to so they can get what they want. I am sure that if you did a survey of the happiness level of all the people who practice polygamy, compared to the same amount of people in monogamous relationships you would probably find the results were pretty close.

ATAR_i said...

Stinger

I couldn't manage to make any of the links on front page of the site work. I did manage to do a backward link check and see some things - but not much (not the things you mention). Also, if you view the source - it's really bogged down in redundant coding.

Why do you think your group was able to reject Warren trying to tear you apart - while others could not? Was it your leader - the geographic location - some of both - or something altogether different.

This may sound an odd question - but why do you not have more than one wife?

(changing the subject)

I had to laugh when I was perusing through the photo thumbnails. Most of the photos have been viewed approximately the same amount of times. Except - there is this one photo of a young fellow in a black and blue shirt with a white hat - has been viewed 3x as much as any others (apparently your gals are allowed to use computers). I hope he is pleased at his popularity :)

As far as the polygamy happiness. I have never had a single personal interaction with anyone living that lifestyle. Other than my questions here, which sputter out awkwardly - I have never spoken about things of this nature.

Forgive me if I have offended you, I surely did not mean to. I was trying to understand something that is beyond what I can conceptualize.

Stinger said...

Atar,
What browser do you use? If it is Firefox the front page of the site won't work.
Here in Canada we have always been taught to think for ourselves. When warren first started telling people to pray for the end of the world to come, most of us started thinking that was way too weird. One of the things we have been taught is that if it seems weird it probably is. Then when he tried replacing our bishop in Canada, the main reason he gave was that our bishop said the world wasn't going to end and that God was the only one who could predict the end, we decided we had about as much as we could take. When warren and his followers left our church to start their own we stayed believing the same as we have all our lives.
In our religion the men don't get to decide when they want another wife and they certainly don't get to pick who they marry. The women are actually the ones given this choice. I am quite happy with only having one wife. The one I have runs me far too much as it is. I can only imagine what it would be like having two women telling me what to do.
Also, don't worry about offending me. I have the unique ability of being able to read things in such away as so they don't offend me. Although I will admit that every now and then something does get through, but I also have a very short memory.

ATAR_i said...

I do not use firefox - I use one of the main 2 browsers (IE and Netscape)

I tried to cut and paste some of the code from the front page (as it relates to linking to 'volume 1') but it was too bulky. Mostly it is a bunch of line height and font family information. It's like they wanted to use CSS, but then included all the information that would have been in the css again into the HTML. But, I cannot see one a href in there. Usually I could go in the back way, find the code - and just cut and paste into my browser window. But, I can't even do that.

It's ok - is there that much to see in there (I'll persist if there is a plethora of information).

Another personal question - are you ready?

How many mothers do you have? How many siblings do you have? Have your mothers and your sisters influenced how you feel about having multiple parners?

ATAR_i said...

Poured over the source code and YES, at the very bottom there is a link which I pasted in to my browser. The newsletter is worth seeing - so I'll put the link here so others can see it.

Newsletter

I also had a chance to read a piece by Winston regarding two sisters. He has a gift with the pen and the article was beautifully written. Although not knowing the author was a man - I had assumed him female and thus had to re-adjust when the author (assumed to be female), married Jane.

Two Sisters

This piece was also interesting
Affadavits

Stinger said...

Atar,

I have two mothers, although my birth mother left my father to follow warren. I have 6 brothers and 5 sisters. I was mostly trying to bother my wife when I wrote that part about her running me (She tend to read over my shoulder alot) lol
I think I have had a very good life.

Stinger said...

Oh yeah, about the cowboy in the white hat, mostly the reason his picture has been looked at so much is because someone made a comment on it so everyone clicks on it to see what was said. Although he could be clicking on it just to make it look like he is popular:) lol

ATAR_i said...

OK Sting - I'm nosy in every respect, and you have been very honest and helpful despite that. The life you lead seems quite a lot more normal than my initial perceptions of FLDS.

While I'm not believer, I doesn't seem destructive to me in the way that the lifestyle is down in Warrens group.

Your group has rodeo's (his group isn't allowed to smile). Your women have public forums (his women have no voice). Your leader appears sane and healthy, trustworthy - need I say more.

I'm not a convert to FLDS or the idea of polygamy - but I do have what I think you wanted me to have all the time - a better understanding of an unperverted FLDS group.

So, thanks for your persistance, and tell you wife hello and happy mothers day.

The mother that left for Warrens group - how long had she been a mother to you? Was she a birth mother?

And last question. All the individuals loyal to Warren - did they leave - or are they staying - but just in a different group? Are they close by? Do they miss the Rodeo's and normalcy? Has your group changed any since all Blackmore was excommunicated?

I just can't stop with one - I'm too curious.

Stinger said...

Atar,
My wife says thanks.
The mother that left is my birth mother. It was just about 3 years ago when she left us. She still lives close by but she doesn't like us to visit her. All the warrenites still pretty much live in the same place as always. I am sure they miss being able to have fun.(BTW, warren told every one not to use the word fun about 5 years ago. I don't remember what his reasoning was. We laughed about that. One step on the road to the messed up weirdo he has become.) As to our group, we haven't changed at all. We still believe the exact same as we always have. We feel that the warrenites excommunicated themselves from our church, as they are the ones who have changed their beliefs.

ATAR_i said...

Isn't that the nature of having ever evolving revelations (things constantly changing)? Have you had to deal with a prophet abusing this in the past?

Stinger said...

I don't know of any of our prophets abusing their position in the past. Their teachings haven't changed over the years. warren started coming up with what he calls "New and higher teachings."

Faithful Woman said...

Stinger
Tell the wife hi for me.

Faithful Woman said...

Stinger
Tell the wife hi for me.

Faithful Woman said...

oops, was delayed reaction and wasn't sure it 'took' first time

onthestreet said...

Stinger said...
Atar,I have two mothers, although my birth mother left my father to follow warren.

Street's Reply: Ah, your birth mother, and there goes your birthright. Happy mother's day to her.

sword drill said...

Onthestreet,

"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as Christ forgave you."
Ephesians 4:29-32

Stinger said...

Faithful Woman,

My wife say hi back. She's wondering if she knows you.

onthestreet said...

Sword drill speaks with a two-edged sword (spiritual-word is
s-word, you see). A fine scriptorian indeed. He too draws on the word and draws on the Lord, as a lover of both. Certainly on the surface, a sign of a good person. Certainly, by their fruits ye shall know them.

onthestreet said...

Sword drill speaks with a two-edged sword (spiritual-word is
s-word, you see). A fine scriptorian indeed. He too draws on the word and draws on the Lord, as a lover of both. Certainly on the surface, a sign of a good person. Certainly, by their fruits ye shall know them.

onthestreet said...

Sword drill speaks with a two-edged sword (spiritual-word is
s-word, you see). A fine scriptorian indeed. He too draws on the word and draws on the Lord, as a lover of both. Certainly on the surface, a sign of a good person. By their fruits ye shall know them.

onthestreet said...

This is what you call immaculate conception, see. It doesn't post, so you plant another seed and another. Then you have a good population on your hands. I don't know if I should apologize for that or not. Maybe Mr. Mankin can delete the dupes for us some day.

ATAR_i said...

IDPFOTS

Stinger - tell your wife hello from me too, I have lots of family up your direction - one of these years - I'll have to come up and say hi for myself. I have a daughter that would love to watch one of your rodeo's - she's just begun gaming out here.

I wouldn't mind hearing a ladies perpective on everything that happened in CC - what do the ladies think about it all?

Stinger said...

Fruity,
Is sworddrill the program you use to find your quotes?

Stinger said...

Atar,
Where does your family that is up this way live?

ATAR_i said...

Stinger - not on the public blog.

Fried Female said...

atar_i, you have been hearing from some of the females already. Most have been posting under anonymous, but I recognize some of them. Most of them are wondering what the H--- but keeping quiet out of fear and wondering what will happen after it all hits.

Anonymous said...

Hey everybody! I know what we should do! We should create another thread just for Street like we did for Ruth, where he can go and puke forth his own special brand of proselyting without having it interjected into an otherwise logical and entertaining thread of conversation. Anybody interested?

ATAR_i said...

Fried Female

I would have a hard time taking it all in stride. The reassignments, the shunning, I think I would begin to break down. Even if it wass't directly hapening to me - it would be stressful to think that it could.

Anonymous said...

sword drill and onthestreet are not the same blogger.

Stinger said...

Atar,
Sorry, I was only wondering about the general location. Canada or the northern states.

ATAR_i said...

: ) I know. My brother in law is Canadian and both I and my husbands families are from the States (hope that answers your question)

onthestreet said...

Okay, create a thread for me. I'll post there.

Thanks guys.

roadrunner said...

Stinger,

I have posted here and on the share the light blog(before ots got it shut down), you answered some of my questions there. I hope you don't mind some more.

You only have one wife....are you willing to have more? Your birth mother left to follow Warren...what about your father? What is your level of education? You seem educated. I am sure there are many more but that's all for now.

Anonymous said...

All I can say is... my imaginary friend (God) is more powerful than your imaginary friend (your God).

Now, I ask... what makes ANY of you think you have the answer, especially when said answer is quoted from YOUR source (bible), which I consider invalid and nothing more than a book of apostasy. Quote from MY source, which is the only valid source, in order to convince me that you are correct?

What's that I hear? You can't quote from my source... because it isn't valid. Well, guess what... my source, which speaks of imaginary friends (God, Angels and more) is just as valid as your source, which speaks of the same things.

I'm amused at how, if we see someone on the street holding a conversation with an imaginary friend, we think of them as mentally ill. Yet the majority of us who are religious go home and pray to an imaginary friend.

As far as I'm concerned, you're all nuts and need to be committed.

Stinger said...

Roadrunner,
Our blog is back up again.
Yes I would be willing to have another wife, although I would never seek one out. My father believes the same thing as I do. My mother left him because he wouldn't say warren was a prophet. As to my education, I went through grade 10, did grade 11 correspondence, then got a job. I don't believe that an education should stop with school though, and I have always loved reading of any sort.

Stinger said...

anon 7:43
Careful, your ignorance is showing.

roadrunner said...

Stinger,

It is obvious you continue your education. Although I am very well educated(according to some people and only in some things) I firmly believe in the power of books!! What type of education do you hope for your children? That is pretty hard for me to understand about your mother....I could not leave my children for anything. As for not seeking out another wife, how does that work? BTW, groovy clown suit:)

Stinger said...

Roadrunner,

I want my children to go to college. They will all at least go through grade 12. My children are all ready very much into computers, though my three year old won't let the other two touch the computer if she can help it. I still can't figure out how my mother was able to leave us. She refers to us as the sacrifices she had to make. For a while we could still go visit her, but she recently one of my brothers that it was to hard on her when we came over so she would rather if we didn't visit anymore.

Thanks about the clown suit. My step mother made it.

roadrunner said...

Stinger,

That really is heartbreaking. I take it your mother is not in Texas...yet. Maybe she will come around. I would make any sacrifice FOR my children....not for me. I too have high hopes for my children(I have 2, that is all). They seem to already know what they want and I will do anything I can to help them achieve their goals. Well, those three year olds are something else, mine are a little older but I sure do remember those days!!!!! I hope you don't mind, but I will ask questions as I think of them. Oh, I don't really know how to word this, is everyone in the Canadian flds as open minded as you. I have said this before, it is not the polygamy that I am against(though I don'twant that life)it is the abuse. I firmly believe we worship the same God....just in different ways.

Stinger said...

Roadrunner,
I think all the Canadians are open minded, at least the ones that aren't warrenites, and I very much agree that we worship the same God.

roadrunner said...

Funny thing Stinger,

After reading your posts and Faithful Womans posts it seems we all want the same things....for our children to be all that they can and for us to live the best life possible. We do it in somewhat diff. ways...so what!!! I do not agree with the Warrenites at all. It seems the "apostates" have gotten it down. We, non-flds, are not all bad people and, as a matter of fact, I would be very willing to help a Warrenite if they were in need. I hope you and your children achieve all your dreams. Any chance of your mom coming to TX?

Stinger said...

Roadrunner,
I want to thank you for the things you have said. It is quite nice to know that there are people who are willing to look past all the stories and see that most of us are quite normal people, trying to live our life and raise our children in the best way we can. Though we belong to a different religion we still believe in the same God. We try to follow the same 10 commandments that all other religious people follow. And it doesn't matter what religion you belong to, if you break a commandment you are going against the words of our God. Loving your neighbour means the same thing in every religion. Last time I checked there wasn't any amendments or side notes that said you shouldn't love your neighbours if they believed different or looked different than yourself.
I don't know if my mother will end up in Texas. We still hope and pray that one day she will wake up and realize that her children mean more to her than warren does. Luckily for her, we can be unsacrificed quite easily. All she has to do is ask.

roadrunner said...

Right on Stinger,

I guess we are not so different after all:)

Anonymous said...

nice one, stinger.

NAME

Faithful Woman said...

Stinger
Yes, well at least she used to know me. Everyone else knows who I am. Lets see, your first child is the same age as one of mine and some one in california asked if they were twins.
I thought your mother was a really nice lady, and her last two children were really cute in their cow hide vests.
Oh what the hay, tell her hi sis.

ATAR_i said...

Faithful - is Stingers wife your sister? I'm confused.

Faithful Woman said...

LOL, let them figure that out.

Stinger said...

Faithful,
My wife says to tell you hi. She figured out who you were a couple of days ago.

Faithful Woman said...

Used to be that me and my cousin were always going around together. We got a lot of "are you sisters?" So we finally started saying "close enough" instead of going through all the detail of how we were related.
Stinger hasn't said who he was so I won't tell on him either. I figured there were enough "sisters" that it was safe enough.

ATAR_i said...

FW - I should have known you'd be related to everyone! : )

Faithful Woman said...

close enough

Anonymous said...

I am a woman from the Creek. I agree with Stinger. Statistically, after getting past cultural idiosynchrocies, we are pretty much like all other humanoids. It is sad that somebody like Warren could power-play a community simply because of their good hearts. While it seems unthinkable that people with intelligence would not stand up to such nonsense, the reality is actually quite different. There are many entangling complications. People choose to succomb for many different reasons, not all cowardice or stupidity.

ATAR_i said...

Exactly Anon 2:32

One of the chants after WWII was 'Never Again', yet you see the birth pains of like minded individuals everywhere.

Which is why someone - even just one - needs to cry out. Sometimes the momentum of the group overwhelm the individual (especially if they wait too long) - but it still NEEDS to happen.

If during WWII a Jewish vicitim went to the US government and told them - 'they are killing us in camps'. It might have sounded like hysteria, that could not be documented. But if a Nazi went to the US and provided information and documentation about the extermination of the Jewish race - I think the world would have reacted with swiftness. The documentation and photographs at an early stage of the war might have garnered a momentum against Germany that would have been crippling.

But - that didn't happen. And normal husbands and fathers became butchers, many of whome believed in their cause til the end of their days - never able to look at their actions with any reflective quality. They had bought into the mentality - and to look at their ideology any other way would force them to see their actions in their true light.

We ALL need to do that. Myself included, and I have done it, and continue to do it. It's not a pleasant experience - but it's necessary.

onthestreet said...

"Woman from the Creek": More like Woman up the Creek, yes. But you're right. You have many entangling complications. It's sad to see you've "succumbed". Hope you can overcome that.

Anonymous said...

No street, it's sad to see that you haven't succumbed...hope you can overcome that!

Anonymous said...

Colorado City may not have invented "double cousins". But they have adopted it as their own.

Anonymous said...

Colorado City....Arizona's own little piece of Arkansas.

Anonymous said...

So, If Warren makes your wife leave you, is she still your sister? And cousin? And aunt? And mother-in-law? And second cousin five times over?

Anonymous said...

Okay...time for a serious question:

Is there any sort of an official way to become known as "Uncle" in Colorado City? Is it an age thing, or a minimum number of wives, or a position in the church?

Not that I want to be anybody's uncle.

Really.

Anonymous said...

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle! Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to offend any of Rulon's brothers.

mugwump said...

Atar:

Not to be confused with atar_i. I sure do enjoy you being on my team.It looks as if the Grace of God nor the Faith of the individual has anything to do with the practice of this group.

I'm tempted to sit back and watch them self-destroy

onthestreet said...

To be an uncle, well. . . analyze the word. Then we'll continue.

Anonymous said...

The term "Uncle" has always been used as a term of respect for anyone with a position. For example, when Willy T. became bishop, he immediately became "Uncle Will" even though he is young enough to be most people's son. Weird.
Anyhoo, the terms is also used as a designation for your father's brother or your mother's brother. And so on.

ATAR_i said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ATAR_i said...

UN'CLE, n. L. avunculus. The brother of one's father or mother.

Previous word - Uncircumcision
Next word - Unclean

Ohhhhhhhh is that what you what you were trying to say, that Uncle Will is not in covenant with God and is warrant of circumcision - that's powerful stuff OTS - better be careful or you'll step on warrens toes.

onthestreet said...

UNCLE: Vav, Nun, Chet, Lamed, Ayin

ATAR_i said...

yo quiero taco bell

Stinger said...

ALL YOUR BASE BELONGS TO US!!!

onthestreet said...

"UNCLE" is Dowd or dod (vs dog): It is "a love token, friend, boiling pot. God is the master potter, and dod is the pot or caldron for the seething of the fire or spirit. In the Greek, "UNCLE" IS Endeigma: "An indication or manifest token". . . to show forth light, albeit many fall from this grace. They were a beginning or an indication of light, but not fully manifest light.

"UNCLE" is a preparatory office of angels: The Vav is the grace of God in Michael the Archangel. The Nun is the exodus, the Chet is the fall of man, the Lamed is the victory of Israel, the Ayin is the splendor of the pure seed, the light of the inner eye or "eye-in".

In revealing this, it reveals nothing to us dogs that isn't already known. But the process, its achievement, and infinate mysteries, remain hidden. The impure who mock that which is holy are deliberately avoided and denied the real mysteries.

ATAR_i said...

Who gave fruit loops viagra again? Hardheaded - are you ready to officially give OTS your name?