Tuesday, March 22, 2005

Welfare

Let's see if we can get the welfare comments under one heading.

55 comments:

Anonymous said...

I'm an "outsider" to the FLDS community, but was wondering if there is any connection between the practice of "Bleeding the Beast" and the practice of having one's wives reassigned to other men in the group after you have been asked to "repent at a distance" (excommunicated) for sin. This way, a "newly-inherited family" comes complete with their welfare benefits???? Just wondering....

Anonymous said...

People who have a problem with others getting welfare should talk to their legislators about doing away with welfare altogether. Then they wouldn't have to worry that they are helping someone in need.

Anonymous said...

That's a good idea talk to your legislators so you can sleep at night knowing that none of your hard earned taxes are helping any of those poor polygamist children!!!

Anonymous said...

They feel that they've deprived of making an honest living because of prejudice against them, so therefore they're entitled. Besides what are you going to tell a young 19 year old mom going on child number 4? What are you going to tell her 50 year husband who already has a couple dozen kids from his other wives? No, we won't help you feed your kids? Not to mention they're required by God to give the church money. Where are they going to get that? I'm looking at that big church they're building. Nice to see my tax dollars at work. ;)

Randy said...

That's a good question. One would assume that you're correct, as in the eyes of the law these people are not married and the AFDC, WIC, etc., benefits go to the mothers.

Also, in the regular ol' LDS church, there's a practice of young couples deliberately getting onto WIC and medicaid in order to pop out as many children as possible while they're in college and before they become established (and have to pay all those expenses themselves). So there's a certain amount of "bleeding the beast" in that branch of Mormon culture too, though they would never call it that.

Anonymous said...

Their is "bleeding the beast" in the rest of society too if you ever think of anyone who is on SSI, unemployment, medicare etc. But it looks like all you worry about is how many children someone else has, and that is really none of your business. If you think that they should get abortions then maybe the world would have been better off if your mother would have gotten an abortion instead of allowing you the right to be born. In reality these people have never done anything to hurt you or anyone else. Hopefully with all the children they are reportedly having the world will become a better place because the children are taught love instead of hatred.

Anonymous said...

To the 3:55pm poster:

You're right. There are those in society that take advantage outside of the FDLS community. Does that make it right? As a person who claims to follow the teachings of Christ, your standards are Him, not this world. Besides, taking advantage of people (and teaching your children to do the same) isn't "loving". You're right about something else too. Abortion is wrong. But just because a person doesn't have a whole gaggle of children doesn't mean they have practiced abortion or support others doing the same. There are those of us who don't believe our salvation is tied to the amount of children we bear. The assertion that having a bunch of children will earn us salvation or a more choice spot in Heaven is not found in the Holy Bible.

Anonymous said...

Noone said anything about the amount of children determining your status in Heaven. I just happen to think that children are beautiful. I don't care if others don't share my views on that but they don't have the right to judge me anymore than I have the right to judge them. The bible says judge not that ye be not judged. Everyone has a right to live and believe what they want to. Contrary to what you might believe these people do support their families. They also pay taxes. Just because they don't live in a big city where work is so abundant doesn't mean they just suck off of the government. Many people go out to find work. There are a lot of them that go to Vegas to get work to raise their families. These people should have the same rights as anyone else. They are God's children too, and they deserve to be treated as such. Leave the judgement to the one who has the right to judge.

Anonymous said...

Taking advantage of someone else is not loving but forgiving those who you feel have wronged you is.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the 2:50 and 3:09 posters lets do away with welfare so if you ever lose your job to the Mexicans or you get injured to the point that you can't work you won't ever have to worry that you might be using somebody elses taxes to support yourself. Doesn't that sound like a wonderful plan??

Randy said...

I think the distinction to be made is between those who end up in situations that require them to be on assistance through no fault of their own, and those who go on assistance as a strategy to enable them to live a particular lifestyle. The children of the polygamists are not to blame for their parents' choices, but the parents really shouldn't be allowed to make strategic use of the public treasury in order to live as polygamists, if that's what they're doing. Likewise, I'm appalled by middle-class LDS college-student couples who go on Medicaid and WIC so that the wife can stay home and pop out babies while the husband is a full-time student. Cutting the purse-strings seems to be the only way to end such abuses.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Randy - well put!

Anonymous said...

The word "need" is being thrown around rather loosly! Government assistance was designed to be a final resort - not a crutch with which to maintain a certain lifestyle.

Anonymous said...

I have lurked here for a while but this topic kind of got my blood boiling. As a taxpayer federally and in Schleicher county I have a problem with "bleeding the beast". To anon 3:24 if you are deprived of making a living b/c of your children, don't have so many. If the men are so open minded that unhappy women/girls can leave at any time, why aren't more women educated. To anon 3:55, YOU were the first to mention abortion. If that is what you are being taught, that everyone out of the flds has had an abortion on a regular basis, you are sorely misguided. I have two wonderful children. We thought about having a third but realised we would not be able to educate and expose them to things as well as we would like. How do you deal with things like that? What are we dealing with quality or quantity?

Anonymous said...

Curious?
Who coined "Bleeding The Beast" anyway.

Anonymous said...

as an ex-member of the flds church, I know first hand what alot of second wives do there. I know that my father's second wife recieved over a thousand dollars a month from social security, and and was quite a hypocondriact because she didn't have to pay the medical bills or pay for the prescription medicine, and would rush to the hospital if her kid even had a runny nose. So yes, welfare fraud happens there, and it does out here, but there it is looked at as something that isn't wrong. That is the major difference.

Anonymous said...

Fraud happens everywhere. When it is looked upon as commonplace....it is very wrong. The flds members have no desire to help themselves. To anon 4:23, I love children, too. I also love puppies, that doesn't mean I have more than I can take care of. If you love children so much open a day care center....oh yeah, you have one already!!

Anonymous said...

To get Food Stamps You have to show all income sources coming into the group of people living at a certain address. You have to show a letter from a third party verifying who all lives at that address. You have to show birth certificates, Soc. Sec. Numbers, Bank Accounts, Vehicle registrations, Pay checks, Child support, Gifts, Loans, All assets including Real estate you own, Your Tax Return. After you show these things an investigation is done to make sure you are correct. They can show up at your home to verify this also. Once this is done and all checks out they will let you have food Stamps. They also verify employment with Social Security for any W-2's in the previous year. If errors are found they will fine you the amounts of the error. If they assess a higher amount than they should have you will get a bill. To get on this program, all things must be proven.

Anonymous said...

I would rather my taxes be spent on me ( the American Public) than on some spotted owl or desert tortoise or illegal alien or fighting somebody's waste water permit.

Anonymous said...

Is being greedy with your means and not helping the poor in society and making them work for you for as little as possible taking advantage of society? Yes!

Anonymous said...

To 7:39 PM. Has anyone on the YFZ Ranch ever applied for welfare? No they have not nor will they. We believe in raising QUALITY Children. As far as quantity. Love is multiplied not divided. I know there are honest people in this world and I commend you for your standards.

Anonymous said...

To 1:34 AM. The term "Bleeding the Beast" was coined by Ex Members of the FLDS Church to try to find something to complain about. I Know that no doctrine has ever been taught using that term by the FLDS. Using the welfare program has always been discouraged because you have to declare your lifestyle. No persons living under this lifestyle have much trust for the government because of the 1953 raid on Short Creek ( Colorado City, AZ: Hildale, UT).

Anonymous said...

To 10:21
Yeah, right. That's why they've already called to set up an appointment to sign up for WIC at the Community Resource Center here in Eldorado. Quality Children? Give me a break. Brainwashed children with no capacity to think for themselves or challenge Warren Jeffs' authority, that's what you want. And, you want me to pay for it.

Anonymous said...

The FLDS people have been taught by former leaders to avoid all government support. "we will support our own families and beocome totally self-sufficient" was once a mantra in those teachings. This is one of the many former teachings which they have apostatized from. They have been cursed with Warren in retribution for their not listening and obeying. We should pray for them. They are headed for some very sad times.

Anonymous said...

In regard to 1:42 PM Poster's message:

Very true, very true. It is a sad commentary on the teachings and labors of former Fundamentalist leader's that Warren Jeffs and his group have disobeyed the wise counsel of those ispired men and women. Not only in regard to welfare and government assistance, but many other sacred principles and teachings as well.

It is a documented fact that previous leaders taught against welfare and government assistance. Now, the wisdom of their teachings is profound. The FLDS Church is not a true representation of the former Fundamentalist Movement. They are a product of a bastardized view of what was once an industrious and self reliant advocacy.

The Barlow conspiracy actually created the "Tenant at Will" policy by which they themselves were evicted. Their apostate contrivances in revising the UEP Trust and calling for the resignation of original trustees under threat of legal action, made it possible for Warren Jeffs to take over the Trust and eventually evict them. They have received their just reward, except for Sam Barlow, and his reward will be a fast track to _ _ _ _ where he can serve Warren to his hearts content.

Yes, they are headed for some very sad times. I guess it's poetic justice when the persecuted, through apostate actions, turn into the persecutor's. And as justice would finally have it, become the persecuted once more because they failed to learn the lesson that persecution is not an attribute of God. But then, justice is . . .

Anonymous said...

This is how these guys handle government assistance and their kids for that matter.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0313polygamous-teen13-ON.html

Antique Mormon said...

The people over in Texas don't need welfare yet. Their economy is based on the steady flow of funds that they receive from their communities of Colorado City, Hildale, and Canada. When they finally cull their flocks and herds,(of people that is)they will realize that love is one thing, but it doesn't pay many bills. Back in the days when the Barlow boys were crowing long and loud about not using WIC or Food stamps, it was admirable, until it was found out that some of those boys made a regular trip to Pres. Johnson and Jeffs for a very thick cash enevelope. They didn't need help, but many do.
If I remember right, the WIC program was created to give the poorer people of the United States some dairy products. The fact of the matter is that the United States was dumping those very dairy products into the ocean to prop the price of quota in the dairy sector. Some very inspired President looked at the situation and said, "we have woman and children in this great country that cannot afford cheese and milk, and we are dumping it in the ocean to keep up our prices". WIC was born, and it was funded by using what was being thrown away.

Anonymous said...

Is it true that some of the "higher-ups" like Warren Jeffs in the FDLS community have at least 20 wives? If so, do they all live under the same roof? If so, do some of the women work to help spread out some of the financial burden of such a large family? Does Warren Jeffs himself work to produce income for his family?

Sorry so many questions, but I'm curious.

thanks,
jb

Anonymous said...

No he doesn't have an actual job, and he has more like 50 wives, and a few of them did work when I lived in Colorado City, but I don't know how it is now there.

Anonymous said...

Some of Warren's wives are reported to be "used" wives, even a small flock of his step-mothers.

Anonymous said...

I heard something about sex being prohibited, except for fertile women, and for the express purpose of making babies. Any other sex is prohibited, and making it fun is the "spirit of adultery". Can anybody back that up?

Anonymous said...

LOL You make it sound like a livestock operation.

Anonymous said...

Answer to the 5:02 pm post; Sex is prohibited except for the express purpose of procreation.If you have sex for any other reason "it is the spirit of adultery"and you run the risk later of being turned in to Warren by an irate wife.I heard of one man that had to go answer to Warren for haveing sex with his wife (at her request)when she already knew she was pregnant.I guess because the man has a history of makeing large donations to Warren he got off with a severe warning.He said "I went into Uncle Warren stripped and came out naked".Thats just his way of saying he got "raked over the coals".The incident was of course added to the mans file and if his donations slack off it could go bad for him and his family.

Anonymous said...

Answer to the 5:02 pm post; Sex is prohibited except for the express purpose of procreation.If you have sex for any other reason "it is the spirit of adultery"and you run the risk later of being turned in to Warren by an irate wife.I heard of one man that had to go answer to Warren for haveing sex with his wife (at her request)when she already knew she was pregnant.I guess because the man has a history of makeing large donations to Warren he got off with a severe warning.He said "I went into Uncle Warren stripped and came out naked".Thats just his way of saying he got "raked over the coals".The incident was of course added to the mans file and if his donations slack off it could go bad for him and his family.

Anonymous said...

whoops!

Anonymous said...

Has anyone out there read the Song of Soloman in the Bible? It's clear that sex was being enjoyed there. That book was included in the Bible for a reason, you know. To not use sex as a way of connecting physically and emotionally with your spouse is to miss out on an incredible blessing!

Anonymous said...

If you control the woman and the sex, you have almost total control of the men.Now you know why woman appear to be a commodity.

Anonymous said...

Deep physical and emotional connection between man and wife are not what you want in a polygamist society. It would create jealousy between wives and make it too difficult (especially in this society) to take a wife away from a man and just give her to another man.

God intended us to enjoy sex with our mate. To teach otherwise is false. Just read the Bible for yourself. That's one way in which the FLDS crowd has had to distort God's Word to adapt to their lifestyle. Pity.

Anonymous said...

It is the "spirit of audacity" to tell married people when they can have sex. Sounds like that madman wants to be in everybody's bed with them.

And this from the folks that brought us the "turkey baster defense".

If they ever happen to invite you over for dinner, I'd stay away from the turkey.

Native Texan said...

I hate to ask, but I have to know...what on earth is the "turkey baster defense"?

Anonymous said...

11:55 am Native Texan; Polygamist William Black,another flds prophet was surrounded in Centennial Park Az.(a couple miles from Colorado City) by cops & was being arrested for haveing sex with about 3 or 4 of his underage wives who had children listed with him as the father.As they were cuffing him he said ,"the mothers of those children used artificial insemination to get pregnant and they will testify to it in Court".The slack jawed officers watched as their cut and dried case turned into liquid before their eyes and oozed down the drain.Later, reporters asking the spokesman for the government why they let William go when they had him, heard the spokesman say, "He used the turkey baster defence".Thats a classic around here.Warren should take Prophet lessons from William.I guess he did,Warren fled just like William did. William is broke now and is liveing in Old Mexico though.He should be takeing "profit"lessons from Warren.

Native Texan said...

That's hilarious! Thanks for the history lesson. Yes, it does sound like both men could learn from one another - let's just hope they never figure it out!

Anonymous said...

On Easter Sunday, go for the ham.

The turkey might taste funny.

Anonymous said...

Native Texan, here is another piece of history. President John Y. Barlow of Fundamentalist Polygamy fame made this statement to his successor President Johnson, who told it to me. "It is no damned man's business what goes on between a man and his wife. That is their business, and if they have sex every day until she is as big as a barrel pregnant, that is still no one else's business but their own. Is it foolish? Probably so, but it is still no one elses business?

You guys have some of this wrong. You just imagine all of the sex going on in a polygamous family. That is hardly the case. Some great big elders are so holy and mechanical that they have forgotten to be human. They are the ones who come up with the new training on husband and wife relationships. In the meantime some now mechanical women, who do not know the meaning of a relationship that one of you have talked about, that deep close and wonderful sharing relationship complete with sex as the icing on the cake, are ever on the watch for an opportunity to get rid of the mechanical wretch in the quest for trying out another. All he has to do is itch in the wrong place and she has an eager listener in her pornographic prophet.

Paladin for Truth said...

Could not have said it better than Anon 8:29.

Anonymous said...

As to the reference to bleeding the beast: I would say a lier is just that, a lier. It is our government that set's the welfare rules, and our comunity that pay's our own tax. Are you also calling yourself a beast? It sound's like it, as you claim to pay our tax, and accuse us of grossness. I would have to agree, a lier is the grossest of beast's, and so far you have kept your blood!

Anonymous said...

people take advantage of welfare out there and you know it. Quit trying to beat around the bush

Anonymous said...

people take advantage of welfare out there and you know it. Quit trying to beat around the bush

Anonymous said...

talk about welfare have you looked at farm subsidies in schleicher co.

Anonymous said...

To 8:29 pm,That is very accurate and I agree warren has a sick mind.At the Alta Academy ,warren asked intimate questions and demanded details of the young people he was questioning.

Anonymous said...

My father is a very proud man. He is a member of the FLDS, and still not removed as to my knowledge. However, as I chose to leave, I really do not know day to day. But he was never "given" a second wife. Growing up, I remember good times and bad time. He would work away from home for months at a time. And when things got rough he did go to welfare for help. However, when things were not scarce he would stop accepting welfare. He provided for his family the best he knew how. He worked hard for every dollar he got, and sometimes got paid a lot less than he was worth. He pays his taxes, and is very adamant about not breaking the laws. Welfare is supposed to be for those what are having hard time, and I don't feel that my Father abused it in any way. However, in that social structure as in all social structures there are those that do abuse it and those are the ones that should be found out and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. To lump everyone into a group and assume they all take advantage of programs that are setup to help the needy is wrong.

-exinsider

Anonymous said...

And the ones who cheat welfare, will be prosicuted.

Anonymous said...

RIGHT!! The entire city is owned and operated by you people. Corruption is the rule of law around there and now it's plain for the rest of us to see and get nausiated by.

Sutton County resident said...

Oh dear,

Methinks thou dost protest too much...

to anonymous 12:10 am - you say that "a lier is the grossest of beast's, and so far you have kept your blood!"

So tell us, how is life at the YFZ "corporate hunting retreat"

Anonymous said...

To anon 12:10 am, I am a little confused. I don't understand how I am a liar. I am anon 7:39 who posted a reply about "bleeding the beast". Your reply sounds awfully threatening. What do you mean I have kept my blood? Are you talking atonement or that I have kept my money????? Pretty powerful words from such "unviolent" people.