FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Thursday, April 10, 2008
Some food for thought.
if our constitution guarantees citizens a bill of rights, and children who are citizens, are taught that they don't have these rights, aren't there civil rights being violated?
Good Morning Duffy; Too early in the day for me to contemplate food or thought. These children do have a need to know what is happening in the world around them, and that not all of it is bad. I think a lot of rights have been trampled on; some for good some not so good.
Look, I feel sad that there are children who are under undue stress right now, having been removed from their families and taken away from the only place they've ever known. But I blame the adults in this community who put these children at risk by knowingly breaking the law. The government is simply upholding the law.
How far can one carry religious freedom and the idea of "man's law vs. God's law"? If a group of people decide that their religious texts can be interpreted to allow stealing from people, or murder, even, is that acceptable? This is a slippery slope- where any behavior can be excused if we all have the right to break the law because we are following "God's law". Like it or not, that's not the way things work in the US.
I suggest that FLDS church leaders ban marriages, either legal or not, of minors. What is the problem with allowing girls to turn 18 before marriage? Is it that hard to wait a few more years? It would certainly save the church many woes and much persecution.
But I blame the adults in this community who put these children at risk by...... these "adults"are the previous generation's children, who were being taught the same thing. ( meaning that, salvation requires the forfeit of there personal sovereignty)
"these "adults"are the previous generation's children, who were being taught the same thing. ( meaning that, salvation requires the forfeit of there personal sovereignty)"
This I agree with. But the cycle has to end somewhere. I know that most parents who abuse their children (not specifically FLDS, but anywhere), were also abused. We live what we learn. And FLDS folks don't have many outside influences. So my anger is tempered by the fact that I understand all these adults were at one time innocent children themselves and this is the only way they know. Still, it's misguided, in my opinion, to blame the government or law enforcement for merely following the letter of the law. They have no choice, based on the way our laws are written. Those who have posted on this blog and lashed out at law enforcement for enforcing the law are misguided.
All of this heartache could be avoided by allowing girls to wait until they are of legal age to marry.
This community isn't receiving a proper education. You can tell by reading some of these posts. Not that education is the most important thing in the world, but it would give them some choices outside of that compound....
It's a shame that these grown women may be faced with starting over with no education and a bunch of little mouths to feed. Don't get me wrong, I know the government will help out. This group knows how to bleed the beast.
A couple of years ago I read this blog a lot and contributed a little. I was making a point similar to the above and someone who I can only assume was a male FLDS member wrote back. His response was that the men in the group were really doing these ladies a favor because most of them were too homely and dull to land a husband in the outside world.
What I was thinking (and didn't write) was that most of the old men in there couldn't get that much action no matter how "homely" the ladies are in the real world either!
What consenting adults (18 and up) decide to do in regards to lifestyle and religion is entirely their choice. However, children do not have the capacity to make those decisions and having their civil rights ripped from them is despicable. Are there people on this forum who do not agree with this? I find most people agree that persons 18 and older can make decisions regarding their religion.
What I don't find people up in arms about is a population that is genetically related to one another. I could be completely wrong about this and I'm sure there are many people educated on this subject who will correct me, but isn't it illegal for (at least first generations) relatives to have intercourse with each other? Inbreeding, I thought, was against the law in the US. And for very good reason/s it causes serious defects in offspring. I suppose if you're wanting a "perfect people" then you wouldn't want to mingle with we outsiders but does it matter that inbred children are prediposed to serious defects? Or is it more important that a larger flock be created with total disregard for the mental and physical well being of children. I guess that lower IQ's and physically challenged offspring is easier to handle. I realize that only a small percentage of babies are effected but I still don't understand it.
I do wish sometimes that I had a sister wife or two to help me clean my house which is what I need to do now...
I found it interesting that, according to a news report, the MEN of the community have gotten lawyers for themselves...but not for the women and children. I find that, if true, to be a very telling comment. They know they need to protect themselves, and to heck with the women and children?? OR do they think their families will never speak out about them or their community? --MC--
I am new to this blog. I am very interested in what is going on and learning the facts. My inlaws live in amarillo and Coloado City Tx and they were asked to take in some of the children as foster kids, (they currently have other foster kids). But any way I have a question, stupid as it may be but how close is the tv show Big Love on HBO to real life poligamy?
"This community isn't receiving a proper education. You can tell by reading some of these posts. Not that education is the most important thing in the world, but it would give them some choices outside of that compound"
What education was it that told you people posting on this blog were schooled in Eldorado?
You say you posted here a few years ago and the most intelligent conversation you have for us is that these men can only get homely chicks to sleep with them?
LOL at 10:01 anon's comment about needing a sister wife to help out around the house.
This has nothing to do with civil rights, but how do those women have so many children and so many chores and still manage to have time to jack their hair up like that??? Is the hairdo a requirement? I don't understand how they can be so conscientious about being modest in their clothing and then make their hair stick up like peacocks.
If you want to know the inside story of the poltgamous cult lead by Warren Jeffs (who live at the YFZ Ranch in TX and in Colorado City, AZ.), check out the recent documentary BANKING ON HEAVEN. http://www.bankingonheaven.com
I hate to break to you, children have limited amount of rights. Although children's rights are sometimes placed under the umbrella of the civil rights movement, many children's rights do not seem to share the essential components of civil rights. The civil rights children are entitled to are equal protection in education, protections against arbitrary state action, and limited freedom of speech and reproductive control. While you can make the case what is being done in Eldorado is a violation of their civil rights, the law will most likely side with the state because "arbitrary state action" is really hard to define and is subject to interpretation.
You also have to keep in mind, this is the state of Texas and in the court of public opinion FLDS is seen as a cult, in the line as the Branch Davidians. Sad but unfairly true.
I do have a question though, unrelated to this topic. It is concern Frederick M. Jessop. I know I saw on this blog and elsewhere that he had died. However, according to the affidavit it states that YFZ Ranch is under the supervision of Frederick Merril Jessop, born 12/27/1935. Is that the same Uncle Fred or another Fred Jessop?
No "chunky blonde highlights" that I am so fond of, no cute and trendy haircuts, no sexy lingerie, no cute clothes to show their cute figures, no pedicures, no manicures, solor nails, no tanning...A living HELL... lol
In texas, generally women are pretty flashy, or at least the women I know are.. as in you can never be too blonde or too rich or too thin.
Seems like the men in this deal are afraid of a corvette so to speak and make all of the women appear to be ford trucks.
I was referring to those schooled within the compound or FLDS community. Let's leave the poor citizens of Eldorado out of this.
My evidence that they aren't getting a proper education is that basic rules of spelling and grammar seem to fall by the wayside in many of the posts defending FLDS (read for yourself). My second grader can cojugate better than some of these folks.
That was also the case a couple of years ago when I was reading this blog.
Haha, my most intelligent conversation wasn't the guy talking about the homely ladies. That was actually some unexpected candor on his part! I enjoyed debating the finer points of scriptural justification for polygamy with a few people.
We would always hit an impass when they couldn't defend polygamy with the Holy Bible alone.
I just have to say this. Is there really freedom of religion? I really believe that we just dont understand everything that happens in there religion but they are not bad people or child rapist as they are being labeled. Yes they are sheltered and I think thats a good thing!! Look at these kids that run around unsupervised and tell me who more civil the drug addicted teens and adults or nice people that mind their own business yes perhaps they do marry young but I believe for the most part they are not unhappy or this wouldnt work their will always be those that become disenchanted with something or perhaps a case or two of abuse but doesnt every community have that. It happens in the most sophisticated circles all the time. To take custody of so many children is a terrible mistake. These children will be traumitized forever and this will be another case of shame for the govt. like WMD in Iraq. People look in your own backyards for the problems in our society not some nice quite community that seems to have it right. I dont see Britneys little sister being taken away because she is a teen mother. Did anyone hear the word abuse their???????
I think this practice is sick and disgusting. Again, like someone else mentioned, why can't the very grown/old men wait until the children turn 18 or even want to get married??? Talk about not having any civil rights. The girls and women seem to have NO rights. When you start treating the girls/women with civil rights then you should get to keep yours. Until then, polygamy is against the law, having sex with children is against the law, and abuse is against the law. No if, and's or buts about it. The end. If you don't like it, move out of Texas.
I find it really interesting that some of you posters are FLDS and yet have nothing to say about the beds being found in the Temple. What's the story with that?
I only recently started reading this blog. I wanted to really understand what the FLDS believes and practices before passing any kind of personal judgement about it. I strongly believe that every person has an absolute right to religious freedom, if that includes polygamy, fine. The only place that a person's right to practice their beliefs ends, is where the well being of another person begins-Especially children. I'm sure that all of the children and the women who accompanied them out of the compound must be terrified and confused at being suddenly thrust out into the larger world and all of it's "evils", Forced to depend upon the very people they fear. Hopefully they will come to see that the outside world is not all evil and out to cause them harm.
I only recently started reading this blog. I wanted to really understand what the FLDS believes and practices before passing any kind of personal judgement about it. I strongly believe that every person has an absolute right to religious freedom, if that includes polygamy, fine. The only place that a person's right to practice their beliefs ends, is where the well being of another person begins-Especially children. I'm sure that all of the children and the women who accompanied them out of the compound must be terrified and confused at being suddenly thrust out into the larger world and all of it's "evils", Forced to depend upon the very people they fear. Hopefully they will come to see that the outside world is not all evil and out to cause them harm.
This is my first post. I've only read a few threads. All I know is that this cannot be what God wants for his children. I would like to invite everyone, as a (mainly) believing and civilized society, to pray for all those who are taking in these children, pray for the lawyers, federal agents, police, and CPS/DCF workers to find waht they need find in order to end this as swiftly and painlessly as possible. Pray that those dealing with these women and children can be as understanding as possible and remember that they were raised in an environment of subjectification, ignorance, and blatant masogyny. This is overtly hostile in the view of the outside world, but painfully oblique to the women and children dwelling within it. We must pray, if you believe in God, please pray for them. I am a Cahtolic Youth Minister and this situation upsets me so greatly. Much of the country will forget about this in a few months time. It is sad to me, a lot of the ignorance I'm reading on this blog. The bottom line is that the invironment created by the FLDS is one that abandons the concept of civil rights, abuses women and children, and insults the morals and intellegence of the outside world at large, which is probably a main reason why they try to keep us "outsiders" to there practices and not let us get to near, lest we whisper truthes in the ears of their community. Oh God Help us! Please pray.
Wow! Can you people, especially undacuff, PLEASE look up the difference between "their" (possesive) "there" (indicative of place)and "they're" (as in 'they are'). If FLDS members are the ones posting on this blog, then maybe the government has a case against them for THEIR homeschooling efforts, or lack THEREof. The blatant social ignorance, as well as the poor command and knowledge of the english language being displayed is pathetically sad, to say the very least about a horrific situation. When these women and children are finally freed, what hope to they have of securing a livlihood in the real world? This is yet another way these men have victimized their women and children, and scarred them for life.
Excerpt: ------------------------------- The Colorado City/Hildale, Utah area has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency, an extremely rare genetic condition which causes severe mental retardation. Geneticists attribute this to the prevalence of cousin marriage between descendants of two of the town's founders, Joseph Smith Jessop and John Yates Barlow. At least half of the double community's roughly eight-thousand inhabitants are descended from one or both men. --------------------------
4/10/3:50 "When these women and children are finally freed, what hope to they have of securing a livlihood in the re....." "what hope TO they have?" and my dictionary says livelihood. you left out the E. pride goeth before a fall.
I agree, I have spoken to several of the residents from Colorado City, AZ, Hildale, UT and the surounding area and the obvious jokes are that their not bright because they are inbread, but I agree that they are lacking in education. I deal with people from all over the US and the population there are by far, less educated.
Where are all of the teenage boys? Why are only a few select ones permitted to stay and the rest are run off by a certain age? The only think that makes sense to me is that the older men don't want the young girls to fall in love with the young boys. To much competition. I believe that the reason why polyg was introduced into LDS was to increase the number of followers of Smith. If this were a true commandment of God, then the LDS wouldn't have done away with it over 100 years ago.
As for waiting until the girls are 18, they wont do that because then the girls may actually decide they don't want to live that way. They want to have the young girls strapped down with several babies, then if they were able to get out of the compound with their children, which I don't think would happen, imagine having to leave your child behind in that situation, they wouldn't be able to support themselves or their children if they got them out.
It's a horrible situation for the kids and women involved.
I don't have a problem with polygamy as long as it is between consenting adults... but please don't force an underage girl to marry someone. Marriage is a sacred bond between people that have fallen in love... marriage should be a choice... not a forced requirement. And having children should be a choice and not a requirement. I am sad for these women and children who never had the choice. Brainwashing should be illegal... everyone deserves to have rights and a choice in life. There are so many beautiful things to see and do in this world and to be so locked up and isolated like that is a shame.
Don't know if inbreeding is addressed in the lawbooks. Incest is, but isn't prosecuted. Ross LeBaron's sons have done DNA testing and found that he has been having children with his daughters. No law enforcement agency wants to touch it. Seems that it has to be proven that he actually SLEPT with them and didn't use a turkey baster. Nothing has been mentioned about the inbreeding part, that I know of. Seems that just isn't important.
Hey people. It is still legal for 15 years old to marry in Utah. So why the big deal about 14 year olds. Wasn't it legal to marry at 14 in utah until around 2001.
Wasn't the age changed by the legislature with the specific intent of making flds religious practices a crime?
Because utah allows fifteen year olds to marry we can conclude that this is not about protecting girls, it is about Caiaphas Shurtleff using the law to persecute a religion he opposes. Isn't this what Nebachadnezer did when he made it illegal (at the urging of his corrupt advisor) for the jews to worhip god, under pain of death.
Ok here goes: :) I read the CPS had already assigned lawyers for every child (and woman?) taken from the ranch. It is only natural for the men to then hire their own lawyers in defense of the pending trails.
As far as I am aware, no one has been allowed to speak with the children. They are being exposed to nothing. Not only that, their mothers are right there with them to shield them from the "evils of the world." What is happening is traumatic. But the children are not being "ruined" or "exposed" to anything evil.
I have braided my hair in the FLDS hair style and I have also learned to style it and straighten it since I left. Both hairstyles take about 15 minutes to create once you get used to doing it.
Big Love is a very far cry from life in the FLDS religion. I love the show. They do an awesome job. And, yes there are a few things that are the same- like the way the wives all have different agendas and still try to make the whole family work. Their strong sense of (slightly different) family values.
What's in it (polygamy) for the women? That's a very good question. I don't know if I'm the right person to answer that, but I'll try. There is the long list of things I heard growing up- mothers tend each other's children so no babysitter is required, etc. but when I actually lived polygamy with my first husband I can't say there was a plus side. It was hell. But I do know of people whose situations were not as bad as mine.
Yes, two - three kids is ok. The women aren't required to have (or weren't when I was there)any more children than they want to.
As for the emotional aspect- the men are not there for the women all the time but they try to be there as much as they can. Some of them do, anyway. The women have to learn to be strong or find a mother/ sister/ sister-wife to cry on.
Many of the women and children seem to reject their rights because they never realized they had those rights. The biggest violaters of the children's rights are their own parents and grandparents.
Guiding and training up a child in the way he/she should go is totally different from controlling a child to fit the mold of a selfish adult's own motives. Unwittingly or not, these men of the FLDS are guilty of violating the God-given rights of the individual members of their families.
these folks are sick, sick, sick. As a father I can't image allowing any of my 3 daughters to be married and have sex at age 13. All these men need to be castrated and sent to prison where the will find out what a real spiritual marriage mean. Say hi to bubba!!!
I want to know more about core FLDS beliefs. Do they read the same BOM as mainstream mormons or do they have a different version? Do they also follow the Word of Wisdom?
bbgae- Thanks very insightful. Had you ever heard of a 'marriage bed' in the temple prior to this raid? What is your take on it?
The authorities have taken great liberties in explaining this in detail and I don't understand how they could know what they say unless an FLDS member who knows divulged the info.
you rape and abuse children.This is not a raligion.This is a bunch of sick middle aged man raping 13 year old girls.And they call it marriage.I hope you and sick bastards like u must be annihilated.
The problem with the credibility of their 'inside informant' is that only one who is trying to leave would divulge anything. I don't want to say that any information given by such would be false but we have the Floras and Pennnys getting in the way of accepting it at face value. We don't have a faithful insider who is willing to talk and defend against what is given.
Perhaps my wife is the only woman that does so, but her long hair seems to get everywhere. I find it in my clothes and my bed. If as someone above inferred there are men living in the temple that are married the hair wasn't necessarily left there directly by a woman. The arguement is rather weak that it proves any sexual activity took place in the bed. And 'disturbed linens', come on! I have known many men and boys that never make up their beds when they get out of them. As bbgae stated there were no doctrines that would have justified the accusation of what the temple is being used for prior to warren. What has been 'revealed' since is anyone's guess as the FLDS have departed from the "fundamentals" in so many aspects.
So help me to understand this. What is going to happen now after this raid on the compound? Will they shut it down to prevent more underage girls from being abused or will all these women and children return and continue to be subjected to this way of life? There are so many on welfare and I am to assume that is because these men can not afford all the women and children and with human overpopulation, food shortages and resources, and excessive land development, what sense does it make to add to the problem producing so many children? There are NOT any other planets for us to migrate to and the "outsiders" are just trying to help. The illusion they have that outsiders are evil, is just that, an illusion. God help us all.
Yes, the FLDS read the same version of the BOM that LDS read. They do try to adhere to the pre 1984 version as several key items were changed by the LDS at that time. But if an old version cannot be found the new will suffice. They have often purchased their scriptures from the LDS distribution center in Salt Lake City.
The word of wisdom is seen as more of the counsel it was given as and is not strictly observed as it is in the LDS church. It is not taken as a direct command from God. Still there are some who observe it very close. My father's family was one that did observe it. I observed while I was in and still do. I think it was wise counsel that will keep a body healthy.
Do you KNOW there are FLDS families in Texas on welfare? From what I have heard from Hildale/CC the families in Texas have been provided for by the FLDS not in Texas through the church funds. I would like to know if I am misinformed. I am aware that there are a significant amount of FLDS outside YFZ that are on welfare of one kind or another. I would just like to know about those at the YFZ.
most ppl have no idea about what polygamy living is about and especially the goverment....ppl want to judge using thier ignorance..our goverment is ignorant too. no one will come out of the lifestyle if goverment workers use viscious tactics destroying them and their identies using several types of alienations...parental and societal. dont judge them or crucify them during this endeavor as the goverment and family members have in the past..leaving childern alienated from their parents and lives torn permentantly.with this eldorado situation....plz use kindness,patience and compassion with the wives and childern or this will only continue and polygamy will become legal in the future.....and i am not speaking ignorantly.....frieds of flora jessup
fttc, your wording is interesting. "Trying to leave" makes you a bad informant? Why would it be so hard to leave that you would have to feed bad information to the police?
The churches I've been to, and the intentional communities I've visited, you could leave just by...leaving. Don't go to service. Walk out the door/walk down to the highway.
If people are being prevented from leaving and taking extraordinary measures to get out, that seems to imply that some abuses are taking place.
What I truly find amazing is that a good percentage of you are more concerned with what these women/girls LOOK like rather than the FACT that they have been and are being abused! Truly sick behavior and in my mind no better than the pedophiles committing the crimes!
These women/girls are human beings and I could care less what they look like. If it were young boys being raped you wouldn't even think about what they looked like.
Arizona just received a similar call from a 16 year old girl reporting the same abuses. Guess what, Arizona is following the same path it has for the last 50 years and is doing NOTHING about it. There will be no raid, they aren't even bothering to go in and investigate. What the hell has to happen before someone will help these children?
My hat is off to Texas. Keep up the good work and don't let these SOB's off the hook like so many others have.
Freedom of religion should never trump human rights.
I have brothers that did just that. They decided they were not interested and walked away. Our dad gave them a blessing and let them go. I have sisters that did the same. They all have a very good relationship with those who chose to stay in the religion, other than those now numbered with the FLDS. Perhaps some are abused as my wording seems to imply. I don't think leaving in itself makes a bad witness. I don't really understand why they do but some must make everyone that does not leave look like fools so they will look better? Insecurity maybe? I have seen too many of our former people that left tell whoppers on those that do not choose to follow them. There are very often grains of truth in what they tell but it is so distorted and blown up to make it sensational that the truth is lost.
I honestly do not know what is being taught or done in the FLDS now. I have been 'outside' for more than seven years. At the rate things were changing when I left I would probably be shocked if I knew all the truth.
Women and children have civil rights too...the right not to be abused sexually, physically, emotionally. Are you presuming that you are the only one so entitled. Did you grow up in America...this is more akin to a 3rd world view. Your behavior is horrific.
A confidential informant, five days with nothing to show for it, all them men under constructive arrest, over 400 kids taken from their homes. Does this sheriff know just how damn stupid he looks and sounds? Maybe his confidential informant has been playing him from the start. And the found a bed with rumpled sheets and one single strand of long hair. WOW
This is plainly religious persecution. Leave them alone! How about this: if I don't like someone, I can report that they are abusing their children, and those children will instantly be taken away with no questions whatsoever! Stop persecuting religion in the name of "protecting children". Any church will contend that children of another church are not being raised right
Polygamy is illegal. States have different laws about marrying relatives. In my state, second cousins may marry. The FLDS , I believe, are not legally plural marrying, rather "spirutually" marrying. Funny that this in itself is not considered abuse to women and children. Some of you need to read Escape by C. Jessop. This will answer a lot of the questions that are coming up.
Caroly Jessop is the most amazing lady on the Planet (Sorry she's no Lady) She's a bit---. Shame on her damnable lying stories,and her book is worse than anything I have ever seen. My heart goes out to Merril Jessop he is one of the best Men I Have ever seen in my life. Shame on you carolyn I won't even capitalize your name. You have diareah of the Mouth. Please all you news channal quit airing her dirty laundry. I have decided to quit watching your channels and I am telling everyone to turn off the TV 10:00 Sunday. Sorry but I can't take her fowl mouth and pucky face any longer. She is not even Pretty. She is a rotten low down two faced liar I can ever imagine. Moderator please post this because she is not telling the truth about anything. She will be dispised by those who flatter her. YOU JUST WATCH. Help stop her abuse. I feel sorry for her children. Merril Jessop is a very respectable and honest person. Signed One who grew up with carolyn
I had never heard of a marriage bed in the inside the temple prior to the raid. I do not communicate with any of my faithful FLDS family members. Even if they did know they would have said nothing to me when I make for a brief but painful 30 second telephone call on their birthdays.
With everything that has happened since Warren took over, I would not be surprised to know that it is a marriage bed. But it MUST be taken into observation the equally credible possibility that it is not a marriage bed.
It could be used in temple work as some kind of vigilance pilgrimage ceremony. You know, to always keep a light burning in the House of the Lord, kind of thing. The person responsible for keeping the light lit sleeps in the temple to always be near at hand so the light never goes out. I am just guessing here.
However, since the authorities say they had someone from the inside tell them that was what it was for, I believe them.
You all keep saying that "Escape" will answer all your ?'s. Merrill Jessop is a peice of crap I have got to agree. But C. Jessop turned up the volume when she wrote the book. I think it is about 80% correct. She went through a lot of crap, but she did write the book to support her kids. I know she took liberty that she shouldn't have. That being said I am proud of her for leaving, It did take alot of courage. Ex-creeker
"The one-page letter, signed by three women who claim they represent others, says about 15 mothers were away from the property when their children were removed." -- AP
Hmm...where were they? away on business, vacation, visiting relatives...?
also, of the 401 children "most were girls" while I don't know the tally, if so where are these girls' other brothers? who's taking care of them?
....the more you look at this situation the more questions arise
Dont you guys see that these people have just set this whole town up so they can do what peodaphiles do ( have sex with as many young woman as they want ) and then try to control them. They think its there god given right to rape young girls. They are sick people would you want to have sex with some ugly fat grey haired 52yr old when your just 16? Disgisting
I'm trying to learn more about the FLDS before I made judgements about what's going on. I recently read "Escape" and she mentions a game called Apocalypse-- is this a common game in CC, how is it played? Any idea where it came from.
So what happens now? The temple is torn down? The children are returned, and they build a new temple? I don't get what's going on there. Will any charges be pressed?
I don't know... but with all the media attention this is getting, more people than not are not liking what they are hearing about the FLDS. Would it be possible then for the children to return to the compound and life go on within their culture illegally? I have read that the FLDS do not want to compromise and marry these girls off at an older age so that informs me then that they will continue to break the law. I am just as confused as to what will happen next as many others are.
Wow, how bad all the people on the outside are--I can see why the FLDS think so. Especially with hundreds of lawyers VOLUNTEERING to represent FLDS children so each and everyone one of them has an attorney..for FREE.
Yeah, all of us on the outside that are not part of the FLDS are awful awful people.
The real enemy here that no one is talking about is religion and the debased and depraved acts that can be condoned using its irrational codes. The despicable behavior of these disgusting men and their vile religion are beyond belief. Time and time again we here of inhuman things being done in the name of this God. It is religious faith and religion that are behind the worst acts of mankind
I think blaming religion as a whole is far too much of a generalization. Religious zealots and extremists are usually where the problems begin, not in your average believer.
Anon 4/13/2008 10:42 PM- I don't know anything about the game "Apocalypse."
Historic Moment- I agree with your last post. There are a few good people inside the FLDS. The guilty should absolutely be punished. The rest should be returned to their lives.
Wow...there are such differing oppions here that I don't know what is right or wrong?? I hope that everyone in this 'raid' situation is comfortable and well taken care of by people that will be respectful of their beliefs. Who are we to judge others? I would love to learn more about this religion and belief system.
I hope that the state finds that the children involved are not abused but loved by their family and extended family. It seems that the communal way of caring for their families has be rewarding to them both financially and emotionally. Arranged marraiges are commonplace around the world in many different religions...and respected. I think that as long as the children are not actually being abused, the state should stay out of their business. If there is anyone that belongs to this 'sect' and is in need of help...I would do my best to help in any way possible. I would be willing to be there for any of these women and children that needs to establish a residence in order to keep their children.
Best wishes to all involved...I hope a resolution is swift and fair.
There are probably more pedophiles and sex addicts as catholic priests or church elders than FLDS ( law suits certainly prove this)..using god for selfish gratification is not specific to one religion.. wake up people!! THERE ARE PERVERTS IN YOUR OWN BACK YARD USING GOD TO SATISFY THEIR OWN DEMONS.
If they have nothing to hide, where are they hiding? Today I wondered how could mothers put their children in so much risk? I know they were told the rules. Do not discuss the ongoing investigation with your children. Yet, these mothers spoke on cell phones to their "husbands" and then told their children what to say. If they had nothing to hide why did they do that? Texas has gone far ouside the normal bounds of investigations to make this as easy on the children as possible. As a former CPS worker I can never remember allowing parents to be present prior to interviews. It is natural for husbands and wives to cover for each other. It is a sad but true fact. I look at these women, I read the stories of others who have gone before them, and while I understand they submit to their husbands and view them as the authority, I wonder what about the children. Who protects the children? When parents are unable or unwilling to do the right thing...CPS has to step in. I applaud them in Texas.
I am curious as to why, when it is illegal in every state, the FDLS thinks it is OK to "wed" underage girls to older men? Are you afraid that if you wait until they are old enought to make decisions for themselves that they will choose NOT to participate? Is breaking the law against polygamy not enough, must you force children into illegal and immoral sexual relationships as well?
I am all for freedom of religion. It is an unalienable right granted by our forefathers. However, using religion as an excuse for, or as a right to, break the law is not what the founders of this country intended.
While most people could look the other way on the polygamy issue, I'm afraid only pedophiles will be in your corner on sex with underage girls, "married" or not. It seems to me that only a twisted mind could conceive of a religion in which is it not only permissible, but encouraged, to sexually abuse a child. Shame on the parents of these children for not protecting them.
I'm still trying to figure out some of the basic differences between LDS and FLDS. Do the FLDS have fast sunday and do their children have to fast? Do they pass the sacrament on Sunday?
It seems differences are large, but on the details they are similar.
On the marriage issue...becuase only one of the marriages can be legal...the "spiritual marriage" (a total joke), leaves the woman with no legal protection beyond child support if she chooses to leave if she is able to get away with the kid(s). Texas did the right thing. Also, how is brainwashing someone into believing child rape is OK an informed consenting adult?????
I did some reading of some of your blogs and while I personally think polygamy to be something I don't agree w/(we haven't seen polygamy since the Old Testament and most of us know that once Jesus gave his life on the cross we came under a "new law"--the New Testament thereby we do things under this new law and away with the old...) I do think that we should err on the side of understanding. HOWEVER, I am a CPS Investigator and a woman and my first concern is safety of children and empowerment of women through knowledge and then let them intelligently decide on which way to go.
What I am most interested in is how are they educating the women and children of this community? They have beliefs that their world is "Heaven on Earth" but if this includes the men deciding on what these women and children can/cannot know...I am totally against that. Not only this, but I completely agree w/ those of you that argue that we should allow the girls to turn legal age before they enter into contractual marriage, maybe we won't see them in the news quite often. Who knows? If we don't allow this to happen then we will always have cases of statutory rape and the window to allow blatant sexual abuse is wide open because they ARE underage.
I also want to know this if anyone can tell me: what is this talk about them benefiting from our tax payer dollars but yet they choose to abide by their own laws? I know little about this but if this is the case then you can darn sure believe I'm PISSED bc there is no way in HADES that we should allow that to happen. You can't have the best of both worlds! Either get off of the govt help and have your own little community or get back to the rest of America and abide by its laws and quit crying when the law enforcement comes in saying you are breaking laws when you ARE. The women on Good Morning America said "We are American..." but yet skirt the question of "Do you allow young girls to marry?"
And one last thing, does anyone know what the reason is of why they "kick out" teenage boys? I was told bc the older men of the community can have access to these younger girls if these teenage boys are not around. Hmmmm I cannot find any other rationale of why they are doing that. This makes it even more suspect that these men in this community are largely there for their own sexual gratification. This is my feminist side talking now: "Freakin men...."
Aimee - from what *I* understand, the reason the boys are told they're to leave is because they aren't holy enough. Why the boys are actually told to leave seems logistical to me, if every man is to take 3 wives, then regardless of the age of the husbands and wives, you'll not have enough woman to go around... you have to dispose of some of the men somehow.
For all those who are expressing displeasure about these people being on welfare (if they even are - not a proven fact)while thumbing their noses at our laws and society I wonder if you feel the same about illegal aliens? A different group who thumb their noses at our laws, refuse to speak our language, create their own communities rather than assimilate into American society and "bleed the beast" draining public resources to the point of collapse.
How many who so harshly judge this group support and feel empanthy for illegal aliens who are guilty of the same thing? As I'm reading these blogs I continue to be astounded at the double standard being applied to this group.
I hope their lawyers make each and every one of them multi-millionaires when this is all said and done.
Isn't your own post a little bit of a double standard? It sounds as if you are against what the illegal aliens are doing, yet in the end you are cheering for the FLDS who are allegedly doing the same thing? Or are you OK with 'bleeding the beast' and I am misreading you?
Just pointing out double standards from mainstream society. Same thing can be said about both groups but in the case of this group it's used to demonize them while society rushes to defend the other group - it's not politically correct to complain about the second group but perfectly fine to complain about this group. I think if society is going to establish a standard of acceptable behavior it should be enforced equally regardless of what group is involved.
For the record I'm not in favor of either group taking from a system they are not willing to pay into.
I think the civil liberties of these families have been trampled on by the actions of the government in Texas. If that can be proven I think they should have their day in court and the penalties levied against the agencies who abused their power should be severe.
I see where you come from now. However, I have not seen the hesitancy to complain about the illegal immigrants. Perhaps that is a regional thing. I live in a very conservative area and don't spend a lot of time listening to national media.
How could anyone take such extreme action as the state of Texas has on the word of an unknown woman that appears to hold some sort of grudge against a group of people. They must look at this realistically! If you take a town of 4000 people anywhere in the United States and remove all of the children they will probably discover that there are a few children in that town that are being abused. They will also discover that many more are not in any way abused and being raised by loving parents. This situation is no different in my opinion, I’m sure if they dig deep enough they will find a few that do need help (the same as in any other community). The problem I have is that all of the children that have never been abused are being abused right now by them. These children will never be that same after what that state is forcing them to endure. If they are returned to their parents the children will always feel in the back of their minds that their parents are criminals in some way or this would have never happened to them. God bless the children the state of Texas is abusing right now.
Okay something I must clear up for the person that said "if I don't like someone, I can report that they are abusing their children, and those children will instantly be taken away with no questions whatsoever!"
I am a CPS worker for the state of TX and you MUST understand that we do not take kids away if a report is made. We INVESTIGATE and if there is anything that resembles an unsafe and unfit home for the children we try to find ways to resolve it if THAT doesn’t work THEN we remove the kids. It is a hard and long process that CPS and the families do NOT like.
Therefore, the reason we removed those children bc there was substantial evidence to suggest that YES there was a abuse to a minor within that community. If there wasn't TRUST me, we wouldn't be there bc we have thousands of other severely abused and neglected children that we have to take care of outside of this polygamist community.
Yes you are correct, some ppl do make false reports bc they don't like someone and that's why we INVESTIGATE to find out the truth. So please, don't say things like that bc it is hard enough that individuals such as myself has to deal with hundreds of ppl thinking that we are BABY SNATCHERS when in actuality that is the LAST we do if it is serious enough.
Being that these kids were temporarily taken away means only one thing: WE FOUND SOMETHING.
Okay something I must clear up for the person that said "if I don't like someone, I can report that they are abusing their children, and those children will instantly be taken away with no questions whatsoever!"
I am a CPS worker for the state of TX and you MUST understand that we do not take kids away if a report is made. We INVESTIGATE and if there is anything that resembles an unsafe and unfit home for the children we try to find ways to resolve it if THAT doesn’t work THEN we remove the kids. It is a hard and long process that CPS and the families do NOT like.
Therefore, the reason we removed those children bc there was substantial evidence to suggest that YES there was a abuse to a minor within that community. If there wasn't TRUST me, we wouldn't be there bc we have thousands of other severely abused and neglected children that we have to take care of outside of this polygamist community.
Yes you are correct, some ppl do make false reports bc they don't like someone and that's why we INVESTIGATE to find out the truth. So please, don't say things like that bc it is hard enough that individuals such as myself has to deal with hundreds of ppl thinking that we are BABY SNATCHERS when in actuality that is the LAST we do if it is serious enough.
Being that these kids were temporarily taken away means only one thing: WE FOUND SOMETHING.
One thing you must get straight. We are talking about the FLDS community "bleeding the beast" please don't bring in illegal immigrants into this bc that just stirs up another heated discussion.
And yes you are correct the illegal immigrants do take advantage of the govt help but lets think intelligently about this. All throughout history minorities have been told not to come here and many "Americans" agreed with that. Hmmm now let's see here....Native Americans were here first when thousands of the Europeans came here and raped, killed, enslaved, and massacred millions of them. When there hardly any of them left, they moved to Africa and started the whole process again. And NOW, when we supposedly have so much "nationalism" going on about the Mexicans many ppl want to band together and say kick them out of here when a lot of them WANT to be citizens and yes not all illegals coming here are here for the right reasons. (read about gang MS-18) The point I'm driving is one from my point of view, I know but the truth about our American history is that we want to benefit from everything other cultures have to offer then we want to kick them out, discount, and discredit them. This is land that hardly any of us have real rights to except Native Americans so I say let all the Mexicans come over if they want. We can't take any of this with us when we die, so why get all upset about it. We live in a world where there is much blending of cultures and socieities but yet so called "Americans" want to exclude ppl out.
Lastly, the FLDS community operates differently than our so called "illegals". They know dogone well what they are doing and know how to get the maximum benefit because they KNOW that our govt doesn't honor multiple marriages so they make the women get on the WIC program. Most of the illegals here just want to WORK and provide...the FLDS community wants to "bleed the beast" claiming that "Satan" (the outside world to their world) is supporting God's work. There's a huge difference.
To be honest, I'm annoyed at the illegal aliens too. I don't want anyone to be in the US, take my (hardworking taxpayer) money while they don't do anything to help themselves. Then even to see what Americans who are legal and in our society spend their foodstamps on. Do you know how many bags of Cheetos are bought with our money? Kids should have fruit, vegetables..stuff like that. We should NOT be paying for cheetos.
And as far as women being abused and that's why they act the way they do. Let me tell you something..I was abused sexually as a child. When I finally told someone in my early twenties and it got back to my family half of them disowned me because they did not want to deal with the truth of the situation. But I can guarantee to you that no matter what my family does, what my friends do, what my neighbors do-- I will take my child out of any situation that is harmful to them. NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENED TO ME! I will not pretend it is not happening. I will take care of my children and let them enjoy life as a child that I never was able to enjoy.
I am even more vigilant about making sure that NO ONE is harming my child in anyway. No relative, no teacher ...NO ONE! I don't care what society I'm in. I would get out and give my children better lives. I believe the "oh they were abused so that's probably why they stay and allow it for their children" EXCUSE too many times. If you know it's wrong, don't do anything about it (NO MATTER WHAT YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH) and just stay quiet...then you deserve to have every single child taken away. I wouldn't even allow them to have pets.
Excuses are not reasons for child abuse. Religion is not a reason for child abuse. Family is not a reason for child abuse.
In my opinion, We Americans have been slowing, but surely losing our civil rights! I feel as an adult in America that our childrens future in regards to Civil Right are minimum to none the way we are going!! But our children just slowly adapt to our Civil Rights, as some of us have done! Our society just keeps getting more difficult, and busier! Do we even notice overall what exactly what our Civil Rights are anymore??
From a legal perspective, civil rights have not been violated and this is why:
First of all, I, too, question the facts in this case as well as the validity of the raid. Texas authorities should've identified and corroborated with the alleged 16 year-old victim that supposedly made the call. On the other hand, Texas law doesn't require tangible evidence to produce probable cause. To produce probable cause (which gives authorities the right to investigate further or to assume that something illegal is taking place), a single complaint is all that is necessary. Though I hate to admit it, Texas authorities were acting within legal boundaries when they raided the compound. When they realized that some of the residents were underage and/or already parents and/or pregnant, it gave them the authority to detain the residents of the compound. The compound is now the scene of a major criminal investigation...Because of this, authorities can legally exercise control over it.
Umm on the illegal aliens issue~ Yes that is a major issue, and that started WAY before the war! We pay taxes, report our income, try to afford medical insurance for our families, b/c some american citizens cannot just run across the border get pregnant and get all the free welfare they want! Oh how about the diseases that are suddenly araising again like TB! What about illegals getting drivers license, BUT US citizens have to be vaild in every aspect or their denied. Let's not forget about foreigners who have been in the US for years, and are still paying to have freedom! This is not a racial thing to me, call it what you want BUT it's reality!! pisses me off that I work my butt off for my family, and it's bad enough the american citizens on welfare, but now we have to pay for people who have had not earned their citizenship. They are humans and I would never hurt any human being, but lifes a bitch, and we all should go through the same process! They have to learn to live by the American way!! What will be left for the future of our children. I guess we can run across the border to Mexico or where ever, and just live off their system. I shouldn't even have gotten on this soap box, b/c this blog is not about that! But come on!!
I'm sorry to say but "religious freedom" doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and just call it your religion then get away with it. Our "religious freedom" is that we can choose the religion we wish to belief and participate with as long as it abides by the law!!
OK, I'm going to use really short words so some of you idiots can understand. Freedom of Religion means I have the right to believe in the gods of the Volcano and I can worship them in any way I choose --- EXCEPT I may not sacrifice virgins to those gods. Freedom of religion gives you the right to BELIEVE anything you want --- Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, Leprechauns --- Whatever! You may not, however act in such a way that is illegal or infringes on the rights of others such as the rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness that extend even to the children of the FLDS. My opinion on this matter is not unique to me. Others like Thomas Jefferson, John Madison and Abraham Lincoln said as much decades ago.
The accusations you make against the FLDS people and the attitude that what they do is different than what illegal aliens do doesn't hold water. Even if they work 24/7 it doesn't change that they are milking the system if they are not paying taxes on the money they're earning. Even if they don't draw a dime of welfare they are using the roads, schools, etc. that everyone else's taxes are paying for. I can tell you they are taking every dime they can get from the welfare system. I checked groceries to pay my way through college and 99% of the non-english speaking people who came through the line used food stamps.
There is no difference - it's taking advantage of a system you refuse to support or pay into. Do you know the FLDS aren't paying taxes on their farm or dairy operations?
DUE PROCESS DOES NOT ALWAYS REQUIRE A TRIAL-TYPE PROCEEDING. For those interested, you should take a close study of the Constitutional Law, it might enlighten some of the people here. Nuisance per se may be abated summarily. Obviously, the polygamy practice which involved minors and incest posed an immediate danger to society, especially to those children.
We have to know that as much as the bill of rights must be respected, it's not absolute. The state has the right to regulate such rights, including the freedom of religion, and these same rights regulate such powers inherent to the state. It creates an equilibrium between authority and liberty. Yes, children are entitled to the same rights, but considering their age, and by virtue of the doctrine of parens patriae, the state may and should decide for what is best for these children, who are obviously in need of guidance. Being in their situation is not their choice. And besides, the state can exercise police power, inherent in its existence in every sovereign, to protect itself and the public. This case obviously has a big effect, indirectly as it may be to the public welfare or public moral, and therefore, justifies the act of the state. We have to understand that individual liberties may be subordinated for the interest of a greater number, as justified in the latin maxim salus populi est suprema lex.
It isn’t the government’s fault here. Incest is not something a civilized person would even contemplate doing. It’s horrifying, no matter how you look at it. Children must be protected, and I agree that the adults responsible now were the children before. I feel sorry that no one helped them when they needed it. It doesn’t change the fact that their acts were wrong, and that the children who can be protected now must be afforded such protection. It’s about time. These people who keeps lashing out at the government must understand what the founding fathers had intended when they drafted the Constitution.
Did I miss something? Where do you get the idea that incest is involved here? I keep hearing this brought up on the blogs and I didn't catch it in the reports of the court or officers.
I don't understand why anybody feels sorry for these people at all. Look, it's not the fact that every man gets to "own" how ever many women he wants to. It is about all of these crying robots on television are reaching out to get their kids back under their husband's urging. Why are they urging so bad ( the men behind it)? Because they want to have sex with all of these underage kids. Me personally, I don't feel sorry for this crying woman "I want my 7 year old daughter back". Why, so some 50 year old can take her as a child bride and have his way with her in another 5 years? This whole sect is set up by perverted old men so that no matter how old they get, they can have sex with young girls. NASTY!
we can go on and on... but it does no good. Simple fact you live in the USA you follow the laws. Under age marrige is agaisnt the law. and having more then one wife is against the law. thats what this is about. YES sadly the kids are being tossed into the middle of this but if FDLS were law following citzens then none of this would have happen. ABUSE is not just beating a child. ABUSE is having older men marry your underage kids and think its ok. IF a child says they are being beat and raped you can expect whats going on in TX to happen anywhere. Same if an Amish child said they were being hurt. Same if my child said they were being hurt. you live in a compound, where no one knows child is whos you HAVE to expect this. Im sorry. Im sorry the ladies of FDLS are so blind. And Im sorry your men have no backbone.
Oddly enough, everyone seems to be screaming "we are a country of laws" and the law must be followed in the best interest of the children.
That said, perhaps someone can explain to me why the State of Texas in its own criminal/civil actions being taken at this time can not follow it as well?
My comment surrounds legal representation of multiple clients and their respective interest to each.
There is such a thing as "Conflicts of Interest" in dual or multiple representations, and when they run afoul of one another, then it is no longer a possible conflict of interest perceived, but a conflict of interest absolute and unconstitutional.
The law of the land here in America refuses to tolerate conflict of interest situations to exist in representing multiple clients who's interest may run a foul one another from the on set and obvious, however where there is even a possibility of a conflict of interest perceived rather than actual, the court..." must hold an independent hearing for each client to assure that each client is fully aware of the dangers inherent in multiple representation cases and the court must inquire of each, on the record to assure those dangers are understood by the clients and appreciate the possible wavier of many rights to independent and conflict free representation.
That has not taken place in this case that the Judge in this matter has for whatever reason has elected to simply ignore this absolute right to each and every client in her courtroom.
Mass lumping of cases without specific on the record inquiries of each client/attorney relationship involved has acted to denied effective assistance of counsel without having held a hearing to each in order to ferret out the "possibilities of a conflict of interest" and where the possibility exist the court must elect to independent counsel to assure no conflict of interest exist.
Its obvious the children may provide via forced DNA evidence that will/could result in serious criminal charges against the parents or other siblings.
Any attorney dually representing the multiple interest of more than a single client in this matter is face with, rather than potential conflicts of interest, but actual conflicts of interest to their client(s) detriment and amounts to no representation at all.
The safe guards of individual hearings regarding same of each and every client/attorney "must" be held to assure that even the mere "perception of a possible conflict of interest" does not exist and take immediate steps to correct same before any further procedural steps in each case can continue.
One thing is absolute, and that is the right to independent and conflict free representation and in this matter, neither can be assured without hearing to assure no conflicts exist, perceived or actual.
I find it telling that the Texas Court has elected, along with the attorneys involved, to wave these clients rights without first mandatory ordering of a hearing(s) and "on the record" either obtain those waivers in a knowing and intelligent fashion by questioning each, as to the possibilities of conflicts of interest and knowing waive their rights to independent and conflict free effective assistance of counsel, respectfully.
I have been watching the goings on from over here in the UK and find with some degree of fascination that people seem to be objecting the the civil rights of these women and children being violated by the state when they went in and removed them. A few things i feel should be said about this are as follows:
1. The women and children appear to be so brainwashed they have no idea they are living a miserable existance. 2. The people on the FLDS seem to stand by why there teen age boys are thrown out so they arent competition for the old men. 3. They have a policy of bleeding the beast. (taking money out of your country). 4. American seem uncomfortable with the women of Afghanistan being abused by the men over there and object to them being made to dress a certain way yet some seem to think its ok in their own back yard. 5. Children should read, play, dig, shout, laugh, learn. Children live what they learn and for generations they have been taught this way of life. 6. It will take along time to de-programme them and the women from what they have been brought up with. 7. Any child born since warren jeffs took over will have never known joy. 8. There are your soliders all over the world fighting for freedom, stop banging on about civil rights and fight for theirs. 9. If none of that convinces you then read Escape by Carolyn Jessop, its incomprehensible that this is happening in America the home of the brave the land of the free. I love America i love that if you want something badly enough anything is possible. Seems to me that doesnt apply to the women and children of the FLDS/YFZ compound cause lets face it they had a right not be be invaded didnt they??? Fight for their civil rights for protection from the state and they will face more persecution from the likes of Merril Jessop and the elders of the FLDS.
It's time to bust up this cult once and for all. The Arizona/Utah authorities are starting to crack down and this Texas raid may shut down this crackpot group at YFZ. Most of the children will be returned to their mothers after they receive counseling and deprogramming. But they won't return to the FLDS community, I predict. The men will be stuck with their old wives.
I'm disgusted by you "Civil Rights" people who ignore the rampant violation of the right to pursue education and freedom and happiness DENIED to the women of FLDS. These people clearly raped their young girls and forced them into a lifestyle not of their choosing. This is not a religion. This is a cult ran by child abusers such as Warren Jeffs who admitted he was a fraud. The rampant welfare fraud alone is reason to shut them down. Have you heard of RICO? Good-bye YFZ.
Big problem with that: Ask any FLDS member taken away, and they will say just the opposite, that it was the taking away by CPS that denied them their pursuit of happiness and education and freedom, and raped them and forced them into a lifestyle not of their choosing, BECAUSE of their religion. The U.S. practice of murdering 4,000 babies every day is the cult, complete with daily mass-blood-sacrifice, and not one welfare recipient on the YFZ. Those who were formerly approved were legal, or they wouldn'd have been approved.
I don't believe in orginized religion because of many reasons. The Hasitic Jew think they are saved and that we are all animals and we are beneath being spoken to by them. The Muslims think they are the chozen people and wage wars for there purpose. These poligimist think they are chosen and must have 20 wives and 100 children. What bothers me is that in the process of being so above the rest of us, these religions ignor the rest of the world and tell there kind that who ever does not believe what they believe is eveil. My grandfather saved 2 people from drowning in his youth. He was a cathloic until the day he died. So he went to hell? A man who worked all his life in a coal mine to feed his family and was liked by every one is in hell because he is not a Hasitic jew, or a Muslim or a Ladder day poligimist. I don't buy it for a second. And I am sick of religions that oppress women. Men are the ones with the larger sexual area in there brains They are the ones with the sexual impusle problems not us women. So why don't they stop covering up the women in these religions and put friggen blinders on there perverted eyes!!!!!!!!
Good Morning Duffy; Too early in the day for me to contemplate food or thought.
ReplyDeleteThese children do have a need to know what is happening in the world around them, and that not all of it is bad.
I think a lot of rights have been trampled on; some for good some not so good.
I couldn't agree with you more.
ReplyDeleteLook, I feel sad that there are children who are under undue stress right now, having been removed from their families and taken away from the only place they've ever known. But I blame the adults in this community who put these children at risk by knowingly breaking the law. The government is simply upholding the law.
How far can one carry religious freedom and the idea of "man's law vs. God's law"? If a group of people decide that their religious texts can be interpreted to allow stealing from people, or murder, even, is that acceptable? This is a slippery slope- where any behavior can be excused if we all have the right to break the law because we are following "God's law". Like it or not, that's not the way things work in the US.
I suggest that FLDS church leaders ban marriages, either legal or not, of minors. What is the problem with allowing girls to turn 18 before marriage? Is it that hard to wait a few more years? It would certainly save the church many woes and much persecution.
I've been saying that for the last five years
ReplyDeleteall on deaf ears
keep sweet eldorado
stg
But I blame the adults in this community who put these children at risk by......
ReplyDeletethese "adults"are the previous generation's children, who were being taught the same thing. ( meaning that, salvation requires the forfeit of there personal sovereignty)
"these "adults"are the previous generation's children, who were being taught the same thing. ( meaning that, salvation requires the forfeit of there personal sovereignty)"
ReplyDeleteThis I agree with. But the cycle has to end somewhere. I know that most parents who abuse their children (not specifically FLDS, but anywhere), were also abused. We live what we learn. And FLDS folks don't have many outside influences. So my anger is tempered by the fact that I understand all these adults were at one time innocent children themselves and this is the only way they know. Still, it's misguided, in my opinion, to blame the government or law enforcement for merely following the letter of the law. They have no choice, based on the way our laws are written. Those who have posted on this blog and lashed out at law enforcement for enforcing the law are misguided.
All of this heartache could be avoided by allowing girls to wait until they are of legal age to marry.
This community isn't receiving a proper education. You can tell by reading some of these posts. Not that education is the most important thing in the world, but it would give them some choices outside of that compound....
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame that these grown women may be faced with starting over with no education and a bunch of little mouths to feed. Don't get me wrong, I know the government will help out. This group knows how to bleed the beast.
A couple of years ago I read this blog a lot and contributed a little. I was making a point similar to the above and someone who I can only assume was a male FLDS member wrote back. His response was that the men in the group were really doing these ladies a favor because most of them were too homely and dull to land a husband in the outside world.
What I was thinking (and didn't write) was that most of the old men in there couldn't get that much action no matter how "homely" the ladies are in the real world either!
haha,
Native Texan
Wondering why there are no comments about the latest news reports on what has been found in the Temple?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ksl.com/?sid=3050208&nid=148
Their civil rights are absolutely being violated.
ReplyDeleteWhat consenting adults (18 and up) decide to do in regards to lifestyle and religion is entirely their choice. However, children do not have the capacity to make those decisions and having their civil rights ripped from them is despicable. Are there people on this forum who do not agree with this? I find most people agree that persons 18 and older can make decisions regarding their religion.
What I don't find people up in arms about is a population that is genetically related to one another. I could be completely wrong about this and I'm sure there are many people educated on this subject who will correct me, but isn't it illegal for (at least first generations) relatives to have intercourse with each other? Inbreeding, I thought, was against the law in the US. And for very good reason/s it causes serious defects in offspring. I suppose if you're wanting a "perfect people" then you wouldn't want to mingle with we outsiders but does it matter that inbred children are prediposed to serious defects? Or is it more important that a larger flock be created with total disregard for the mental and physical well being of children. I guess that lower IQ's and physically challenged offspring is easier to handle. I realize that only a small percentage of babies are effected but I still don't understand it.
I do wish sometimes that I had a sister wife or two to help me clean my house which is what I need to do now...
I found it interesting that, according to a news report, the MEN of the community have gotten lawyers for themselves...but not for the women and children. I find that, if true, to be a very telling comment. They know they need to protect themselves, and to heck with the women and children?? OR do they think their families will never speak out about them or their community?
ReplyDelete--MC--
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=3050208&nid=148
ReplyDeleteI am new to this blog. I am very interested in what is going on and learning the facts. My inlaws live in amarillo and Coloado City Tx and they were asked to take in some of the children as foster kids, (they currently have other foster kids). But any way I have a question, stupid as it may be but how close is the tv show Big Love on HBO to real life poligamy?
ReplyDelete"This community isn't receiving a proper education. You can tell by reading some of these posts. Not that education is the most important thing in the world, but it would give them some choices outside of that compound"
ReplyDeleteWhat education was it that told you people posting on this blog were schooled in Eldorado?
You say you posted here a few years ago and the most intelligent conversation you have for us is that these men can only get homely chicks to sleep with them?
Now that's some insight.
-fax
LOL at 10:01 anon's comment about needing a sister wife to help out around the house.
ReplyDeleteThis has nothing to do with civil rights, but how do those women have so many children and so many chores and still manage to have time to jack their hair up like that??? Is the hairdo a requirement? I don't understand how they can be so conscientious about being modest in their clothing and then make their hair stick up like peacocks.
Does the government pay for their Aquanet?
If you want to know the inside story of the poltgamous cult lead by Warren Jeffs (who live at the YFZ Ranch in TX and in Colorado City, AZ.), check out the recent documentary BANKING ON HEAVEN. http://www.bankingonheaven.com
ReplyDeleteI hate to break to you, children have limited amount of rights. Although children's rights are sometimes placed under the umbrella of the civil rights movement, many children's rights do not seem to share the essential components of civil rights. The civil rights children are entitled to are equal protection in education, protections against arbitrary state action, and limited freedom of speech and reproductive control. While you can make the case what is being done in Eldorado is a violation of their civil rights, the law will most likely side with the state because "arbitrary state action" is really hard to define and is subject to interpretation.
ReplyDeleteYou also have to keep in mind, this is the state of Texas and in the court of public opinion FLDS is seen as a cult, in the line as the Branch Davidians. Sad but unfairly true.
I do have a question though, unrelated to this topic. It is concern Frederick M. Jessop. I know I saw on this blog and elsewhere that he had died. However, according to the affidavit it states that YFZ Ranch is under the supervision of Frederick Merril Jessop, born 12/27/1935. Is that the same Uncle Fred or another Fred Jessop?
The men WANT them to look homely.
ReplyDeleteNo "chunky blonde highlights" that I am so fond of, no cute and trendy haircuts, no sexy lingerie, no cute clothes to show their cute figures, no pedicures, no manicures, solor nails, no tanning...A living HELL... lol
In texas, generally women are pretty flashy, or at least the women I know are.. as in you can never be too blonde or too rich or too thin.
Seems like the men in this deal are afraid of a corvette so to speak and make all of the women appear to be ford trucks.
s
"Taking children, and exposing them to that sort of thing... you want to take them out and kill them," he said.
ReplyDeleteWell Mr. Mayor; Who do you plan to kill first? The children?
When an elected official talks like this I imagine he just wants to kill a few more beers.
fax,
ReplyDeleteI was referring to those schooled within the compound or FLDS community. Let's leave the poor citizens of Eldorado out of this.
My evidence that they aren't getting a proper education is that basic rules of spelling and grammar seem to fall by the wayside in many of the posts defending FLDS (read for yourself). My second grader can cojugate better than some of these folks.
That was also the case a couple of years ago when I was reading this blog.
Haha, my most intelligent conversation wasn't the guy talking about the homely ladies. That was actually some unexpected candor on his part! I enjoyed debating the finer points of scriptural justification for polygamy with a few people.
We would always hit an impass when they couldn't defend polygamy with the Holy Bible alone.
-Native Texan
aking children, and exposing them to that sort of thing... you want to take them out and kill them," he said.
ReplyDeleteWell Mr. Mayor; Who do you plan to kill first? The children?
When an elected official talks like this I imagine he just wants to kill a few more beers.
4/10/2008 1:14 PM
--------------------------------
STREET! git back on yer own thread
I just have to say this. Is there really freedom of religion? I really believe that we just dont understand everything that happens in there religion but they are not bad people or child rapist as they are being labeled. Yes they are sheltered and I think thats a good thing!! Look at these kids that run around unsupervised and tell me who more civil the drug addicted teens and adults or nice people that mind their own business yes perhaps they do marry young but I believe for the most part they are not unhappy or this wouldnt work their will always be those that become disenchanted with something or perhaps a case or two of abuse but doesnt every community have that. It happens in the most sophisticated circles all the time. To take custody of so many children is a terrible mistake. These children will be traumitized forever and this will be another case of shame for the govt. like WMD in Iraq. People look in your own backyards for the problems in our society not some nice quite community that seems to have it right. I dont see Britneys little sister being taken away because she is a teen mother. Did anyone hear the word abuse their???????
ReplyDeleteI think this practice is sick and disgusting. Again, like someone else mentioned, why can't the very grown/old men wait until the children turn 18 or even want to get married??? Talk about not having any civil rights. The girls and women seem to have NO rights. When you start treating the girls/women with civil rights then you should get to keep yours. Until then, polygamy is against the law, having sex with children is against the law, and abuse is against the law. No if, and's or buts about it. The end. If you don't like it, move out of Texas.
ReplyDeleteI find it really interesting that some of you posters are FLDS and yet have nothing to say about the beds being found in the Temple. What's the story with that?
ReplyDeleteI only recently started reading this blog. I wanted to really understand what the FLDS believes and practices before passing any kind of personal judgement about it.
ReplyDeleteI strongly believe that every person has an absolute right to religious freedom, if that includes polygamy, fine. The only place that a person's right to practice their beliefs ends, is where the well being of another person begins-Especially children.
I'm sure that all of the children and the women who accompanied them out of the compound must be terrified and confused at being suddenly thrust out into the larger world and all of it's "evils", Forced to depend upon the very people they fear.
Hopefully they will come to see that the outside world is not all evil and out to cause them harm.
I only recently started reading this blog. I wanted to really understand what the FLDS believes and practices before passing any kind of personal judgement about it.
ReplyDeleteI strongly believe that every person has an absolute right to religious freedom, if that includes polygamy, fine. The only place that a person's right to practice their beliefs ends, is where the well being of another person begins-Especially children.
I'm sure that all of the children and the women who accompanied them out of the compound must be terrified and confused at being suddenly thrust out into the larger world and all of it's "evils", Forced to depend upon the very people they fear.
Hopefully they will come to see that the outside world is not all evil and out to cause them harm.
This is my first post. I've only read a few threads. All I know is that this cannot be what God wants for his children. I would like to invite everyone, as a (mainly) believing and civilized society, to pray for all those who are taking in these children, pray for the lawyers, federal agents, police, and CPS/DCF workers to find waht they need find in order to end this as swiftly and painlessly as possible. Pray that those dealing with these women and children can be as understanding as possible and remember that they were raised in an environment of subjectification, ignorance, and blatant masogyny. This is overtly hostile in the view of the outside world, but painfully oblique to the women and children dwelling within it. We must pray, if you believe in God, please pray for them. I am a Cahtolic Youth Minister and this situation upsets me so greatly. Much of the country will forget about this in a few months time. It is sad to me, a lot of the ignorance I'm reading on this blog. The bottom line is that the invironment created by the FLDS is one that abandons the concept of civil rights, abuses women and children, and insults the morals and intellegence of the outside world at large, which is probably a main reason why they try to keep us "outsiders" to there practices and not let us get to near, lest we whisper truthes in the ears of their community. Oh God Help us! Please pray.
ReplyDeleteWow! Can you people, especially undacuff, PLEASE look up the difference between "their" (possesive) "there" (indicative of place)and "they're" (as in 'they are'). If FLDS members are the ones posting on this blog, then maybe the government has a case against them for THEIR homeschooling efforts, or lack THEREof. The blatant social ignorance, as well as the poor command and knowledge of the english language being displayed is pathetically sad, to say the very least about a horrific situation. When these women and children are finally freed, what hope to they have of securing a livlihood in the real world? This is yet another way these men have victimized their women and children, and scarred them for life.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous @ 10:01 am. I think your point about genetic defects is a very valid one.
ReplyDeleteI found this information on Wikipedia.
Excerpt:
-------------------------------
The Colorado City/Hildale, Utah area has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency, an extremely rare genetic condition which causes severe mental retardation. Geneticists attribute this to the prevalence of cousin marriage between descendants of two of the town's founders, Joseph Smith Jessop and John Yates Barlow. At least half of the double community's roughly eight-thousand inhabitants are descended from one or both men.
--------------------------
Yes many of us can see that they're not using their theres where there should be a they're there may be their.
ReplyDelete4/10/3:50 "When these women and children are finally freed, what hope to they have of securing a livlihood in the re....."
ReplyDelete"what hope TO they have?"
and my dictionary says livelihood.
you left out the E.
pride goeth before a fall.
I agree, I have spoken to several of the residents from Colorado City, AZ, Hildale, UT and the surounding area and the obvious jokes are that their not bright because they are inbread, but I agree that they are lacking in education. I deal with people from all over the US and the population there are by far, less educated.
ReplyDeleteWhere are all of the teenage boys? Why are only a few select ones permitted to stay and the rest are run off by a certain age? The only think that makes sense to me is that the older men don't want the young girls to fall in love with the young boys. To much competition. I believe that the reason why polyg was introduced into LDS was to increase the number of followers of Smith. If this were a true commandment of God, then the LDS wouldn't have done away with it over 100 years ago.
As for waiting until the girls are 18, they wont do that because then the girls may actually decide they don't want to live that way. They want to have the young girls strapped down with several babies, then if they were able to get out of the compound with their children, which I don't think would happen, imagine having to leave your child behind in that situation, they wouldn't be able to support themselves or their children if they got them out.
It's a horrible situation for the kids and women involved.
I don't have a problem with polygamy as long as it is between consenting adults... but please don't force an underage girl to marry someone. Marriage is a sacred bond between people that have fallen in love... marriage should be a choice... not a forced requirement. And having children should be a choice and not a requirement. I am sad for these women and children who never had the choice. Brainwashing should be illegal... everyone deserves to have rights and a choice in life. There are so many beautiful things to see and do in this world and to be so locked up and isolated like that is a shame.
ReplyDeleteI'm no fem-nazi, but could the ladies out there please tell me what's in it for them in this group??
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me ya'll don't get to make choices about even the most basic things - like what color your dress is going to be.
Is it weird marrying someone so much older than you?
Do the sisterwives struggle with jealousy?
How can one man meet the emotional and physical needs of even two women? Most men struggle with one.
Is it okay to only have two or three kids?
just curious
Don't know if inbreeding is addressed in the lawbooks. Incest is, but isn't prosecuted. Ross LeBaron's sons have done DNA testing and found that he has been having children with his daughters. No law enforcement agency wants to touch it. Seems that it has to be proven that he actually SLEPT with them and didn't use a turkey baster. Nothing has been mentioned about the inbreeding part, that I know of. Seems that just isn't important.
ReplyDeleteHey people. It is still legal for 15 years old to marry in Utah. So why the big deal about 14 year olds. Wasn't it legal to marry at 14 in utah until around 2001.
ReplyDeleteWasn't the age changed by the legislature with the specific intent of making flds religious practices a crime?
Because utah allows fifteen year olds to marry we can conclude that this is not about protecting girls, it is about Caiaphas Shurtleff using the law to persecute a religion he opposes. Isn't this what Nebachadnezer did when he made it illegal (at the urging of his corrupt advisor) for the jews to worhip god, under pain of death.
Ok here goes: :)
ReplyDeleteI read the CPS had already assigned lawyers for every child (and woman?) taken from the ranch. It is only natural for the men to then hire their own lawyers in defense of the pending trails.
As far as I am aware, no one has been allowed to speak with the children. They are being exposed to nothing. Not only that, their mothers are right there with them to shield them from the "evils of the world." What is happening is traumatic. But the children are not being "ruined" or "exposed" to anything evil.
I have braided my hair in the FLDS hair style and I have also learned to style it and straighten it since I left. Both hairstyles take about 15 minutes to create once you get used to doing it.
Big Love is a very far cry from life in the FLDS religion. I love the show. They do an awesome job. And, yes there are a few things that are the same- like the way the wives all have different agendas and still try to make the whole family work. Their strong sense of (slightly different) family values.
What's in it (polygamy) for the women? That's a very good question. I don't know if I'm the right person to answer that, but I'll try. There is the long list of things I heard growing up- mothers tend each other's children so no babysitter is required, etc. but when I actually lived polygamy with my first husband I can't say there was a plus side. It was hell. But I do know of people whose situations were not as bad as mine.
Yes, two - three kids is ok. The women aren't required to have (or weren't when I was there)any more children than they want to.
As for the emotional aspect- the men are not there for the women all the time but they try to be there as much as they can. Some of them do, anyway. The women have to learn to be strong or find a mother/ sister/ sister-wife to cry on.
Many of the women and children seem to reject their rights because they never realized they had those rights. The biggest violaters of the children's rights are their own parents and grandparents.
ReplyDeleteGuiding and training up a child in the way he/she should go is totally different from controlling a child to fit the mold of a selfish adult's own motives. Unwittingly or not, these men of the FLDS are guilty of violating the God-given rights of the individual members of their families.
Emily in NC
these folks are sick, sick, sick. As a father I can't image allowing any of my 3 daughters to be married and have sex at age 13. All these men need to be castrated and sent to prison where the will find out what a real spiritual marriage mean. Say hi to bubba!!!
ReplyDeleteI want to know more about core FLDS beliefs. Do they read the same BOM as mainstream mormons or do they have a different version? Do they also follow the Word of Wisdom?
ReplyDeleteChildren may be citizens but they are only partial citizens as they can't run for many government offices and can't vote.. I don't get your point?
ReplyDeletebbgae- Thanks very insightful. Had you ever heard of a 'marriage bed' in the temple prior to this raid? What is your take on it?
ReplyDeleteThe authorities have taken great liberties in explaining this in detail and I don't understand how they could know what they say unless an FLDS member who knows divulged the info.
you rape and abuse children.This is not a raligion.This is a bunch of sick middle aged man raping 13 year old girls.And they call it marriage.I hope you and sick bastards like u must be annihilated.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the credibility of their 'inside informant' is that only one who is trying to leave would divulge anything. I don't want to say that any information given by such would be false but we have the Floras and Pennnys getting in the way of accepting it at face value. We don't have a faithful insider who is willing to talk and defend against what is given.
ReplyDeletePerhaps my wife is the only woman that does so, but her long hair seems to get everywhere. I find it in my clothes and my bed. If as someone above inferred there are men living in the temple that are married the hair wasn't necessarily left there directly by a woman. The arguement is rather weak that it proves any sexual activity took place in the bed. And 'disturbed linens', come on! I have known many men and boys that never make up their beds when they get out of them. As bbgae stated there were no doctrines that would have justified the accusation of what the temple is being used for prior to warren. What has been 'revealed' since is anyone's guess as the FLDS have departed from the "fundamentals" in so many aspects.
So help me to understand this. What is going to happen now after this raid on the compound? Will they shut it down to prevent more underage girls from being abused or will all these women and children return and continue to be subjected to this way of life? There are so many on welfare and I am to assume that is because these men can not afford all the women and children and with human overpopulation, food shortages and resources, and excessive land development, what sense does it make to add to the problem producing so many children? There are NOT any other planets for us to migrate to and the "outsiders" are just trying to help. The illusion they have that outsiders are evil, is just that, an illusion. God help us all.
ReplyDeleteLiz-
ReplyDeleteYes, the FLDS read the same version of the BOM that LDS read. They do try to adhere to the pre 1984 version as several key items were changed by the LDS at that time. But if an old version cannot be found the new will suffice. They have often purchased their scriptures from the LDS distribution center in Salt Lake City.
The word of wisdom is seen as more of the counsel it was given as and is not strictly observed as it is in the LDS church. It is not taken as a direct command from God. Still there are some who observe it very close. My father's family was one that did observe it. I observed while I was in and still do. I think it was wise counsel that will keep a body healthy.
Anon 7:08
ReplyDeleteDo you KNOW there are FLDS families in Texas on welfare? From what I have heard from Hildale/CC the families in Texas have been provided for by the FLDS not in Texas through the church funds. I would like to know if I am misinformed. I am aware that there are a significant amount of FLDS outside YFZ that are on welfare of one kind or another. I would just like to know about those at the YFZ.
most ppl have no idea about what polygamy living is about and especially the goverment....ppl want to judge using thier ignorance..our goverment is ignorant too. no one will come out of the lifestyle if goverment workers use viscious tactics destroying them and their identies using several types of alienations...parental and societal. dont judge them or crucify them during this endeavor as the goverment and family members have in the past..leaving childern alienated from their parents and lives torn permentantly.with this eldorado situation....plz use kindness,patience and compassion with the wives and childern or this will only continue and polygamy will become legal in the future.....and i am not speaking ignorantly.....frieds of flora jessup
ReplyDeletefttc, your wording is interesting.
ReplyDelete"Trying to leave" makes you a bad informant? Why would it be so hard to leave that you would have to feed bad information to the police?
The churches I've been to, and the intentional communities I've visited, you could leave just by...leaving. Don't go to service. Walk out the door/walk down to the highway.
If people are being prevented from leaving and taking extraordinary measures to get out, that seems to imply that some abuses are taking place.
What I truly find amazing is that a good percentage of you are more concerned with what these women/girls LOOK like rather than the FACT that they have been and are being abused! Truly sick behavior and in my mind no better than the pedophiles committing the crimes!
ReplyDeleteThese women/girls are human beings and I could care less what they look like. If it were young boys being raped you wouldn't even think about what they looked like.
Arizona just received a similar call from a 16 year old girl reporting the same abuses. Guess what, Arizona is following the same path it has for the last 50 years and is doing NOTHING about it. There will be no raid, they aren't even bothering to go in and investigate. What the hell has to happen before someone will help these children?
My hat is off to Texas. Keep up the good work and don't let these SOB's off the hook like so many others have.
Freedom of religion should never trump human rights.
I have brothers that did just that. They decided they were not interested and walked away. Our dad gave them a blessing and let them go. I have sisters that did the same. They all have a very good relationship with those who chose to stay in the religion, other than those now numbered with the FLDS. Perhaps some are abused as my wording seems to imply. I don't think leaving in itself makes a bad witness. I don't really understand why they do but some must make everyone that does not leave look like fools so they will look better? Insecurity maybe? I have seen too many of our former people that left tell whoppers on those that do not choose to follow them. There are very often grains of truth in what they tell but it is so distorted and blown up to make it sensational that the truth is lost.
ReplyDeleteI honestly do not know what is being taught or done in the FLDS now. I have been 'outside' for more than seven years. At the rate things were changing when I left I would probably be shocked if I knew all the truth.
Women and children have civil rights too...the right not to be abused sexually, physically, emotionally.
ReplyDeleteAre you presuming that you are the only one so entitled. Did you grow up in America...this is more akin to a 3rd world view.
Your behavior is horrific.
A confidential informant, five days with nothing to show for it, all them men under constructive arrest, over 400 kids taken from their homes.
ReplyDeleteDoes this sheriff know just how damn stupid he looks and sounds?
Maybe his confidential informant has been playing him from the start.
And the found a bed with rumpled sheets and one single strand of long hair. WOW
This is plainly religious persecution. Leave them alone! How about this: if I don't like someone, I can report that they are abusing their children, and those children will instantly be taken away with no questions whatsoever! Stop persecuting religion in the name of "protecting children". Any church will contend that children of another church are not being raised right
ReplyDeletePolygamy is illegal. States have different laws about marrying relatives. In my state, second cousins may marry. The FLDS , I believe, are not legally plural marrying, rather "spirutually" marrying. Funny that this in itself is not considered abuse to women and children. Some of you need to read Escape by C. Jessop. This will answer a lot of the questions that are coming up.
ReplyDeleteCaroly Jessop is the most amazing lady on the Planet (Sorry she's no Lady) She's a bit---. Shame on her damnable lying stories,and her book is worse than anything I have ever seen. My heart goes out to Merril Jessop he is one of the best Men I Have ever seen in my life. Shame on you carolyn I won't even capitalize your name. You have diareah of the Mouth. Please all you news channal quit airing her dirty laundry. I have decided to quit watching your channels and I am telling everyone to turn off the TV 10:00 Sunday. Sorry but I can't take her fowl mouth and pucky face any longer. She is not even Pretty. She is a rotten low down two faced liar I can ever imagine. Moderator please post this because she is not telling the truth about anything. She will be dispised by those who flatter her. YOU JUST WATCH. Help stop her abuse. I feel sorry for her children. Merril Jessop is a very respectable and honest person. Signed One who grew up with carolyn
ReplyDeleteAnon 4/10/2008 9:55 PM-
ReplyDeleteI had never heard of a marriage bed in the inside the temple prior to the raid. I do not communicate with any of my faithful FLDS family members. Even if they did know they would have said nothing to me when I make for a brief but painful 30 second telephone call on their birthdays.
With everything that has happened since Warren took over, I would not be surprised to know that it is a marriage bed. But it MUST be taken into observation the equally credible possibility that it is not a marriage bed.
It could be used in temple work as some kind of vigilance pilgrimage ceremony. You know, to always keep a light burning in the House of the Lord, kind of thing. The person responsible for keeping the light lit sleeps in the temple to always be near at hand so the light never goes out. I am just guessing here.
However, since the authorities say they had someone from the inside tell them that was what it was for, I believe them.
Eldorado Success newspaper has published a list of children as part of a legal notice as well as parents. Read more: READ THIS
ReplyDeleteYou all keep saying that "Escape" will answer all your ?'s. Merrill Jessop is a peice of crap I have got to agree. But C. Jessop turned up the volume when she wrote the book. I think it is about 80% correct. She went through a lot of crap, but she did write the book to support her kids. I know she took liberty that she shouldn't have. That being said I am proud of her for leaving, It did take alot of courage. Ex-creeker
ReplyDelete"The one-page letter, signed by three women who claim they represent others, says about 15 mothers were away from the property when their children were removed." -- AP
ReplyDeleteHmm...where were they?
away on business, vacation, visiting relatives...?
also, of the 401 children "most were girls"
while I don't know the tally, if so
where are these girls' other brothers?
who's taking care of them?
....the more you look at this situation
the more questions arise
keep sweet eldorado
stg
Dont you guys see that these people have just set this whole town up so they can do what peodaphiles do ( have sex with as many young woman as they want ) and then try to control them. They think its there god given right to rape young girls. They are sick people would you want to have sex with some ugly fat grey haired 52yr old when your just 16? Disgisting
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to learn more about the FLDS before I made judgements about what's going on. I recently read "Escape" and she mentions a game called Apocalypse-- is this a common game in CC, how is it played? Any idea where it came from.
ReplyDeleteThanks
So what happens now? The temple is torn down? The children are returned, and they build a new temple?
ReplyDeleteI don't get what's going on there.
Will any charges be pressed?
I don't know... but with all the media attention this is getting, more people than not are not liking what they are hearing about the FLDS. Would it be possible then for the children to return to the compound and life go on within their culture illegally? I have read that the FLDS do not want to compromise and marry these girls off at an older age so that informs me then that they will continue to break the law. I am just as confused as to what will happen next as many others are.
ReplyDeleteWow, how bad all the people on the outside are--I can see why the FLDS think so. Especially with hundreds of lawyers VOLUNTEERING to represent FLDS children so each and everyone one of them has an attorney..for FREE.
ReplyDeleteYeah, all of us on the outside that are not part of the FLDS are awful awful people.
The real enemy here that no one is talking about is religion and the debased and depraved acts that can be condoned using its irrational codes. The despicable behavior of these disgusting men and their vile religion are beyond belief. Time and time again we here of inhuman things being done in the name of this God. It is religious faith and religion that are behind the worst acts of mankind
ReplyDeleteI think blaming religion as a whole is far too much of a generalization. Religious zealots and extremists are usually where the problems begin, not in your average believer.
ReplyDeleteGod has nothing to do with how YFZ is run. That place is controlled by a bunch of pedophiles and sex addicts who try to hide behind religion.
ReplyDeleteThey can't reconcile their actions with God's Word.
Anon 4/13/2008 10:42 PM-
ReplyDeleteI don't know anything about the game "Apocalypse."
Historic Moment- I agree with your last post. There are a few good people inside the FLDS. The guilty should absolutely be punished. The rest should be returned to their lives.
Wow...there are such differing oppions here that I don't know what is right or wrong?? I hope that everyone in this 'raid' situation is comfortable and well taken care of by people that will be respectful of their beliefs. Who are we to judge others? I would love to learn more about this religion and belief system.
ReplyDeleteI hope that the state finds that the children involved are not abused but loved by their family and extended family. It seems that the communal way of caring for their families has be rewarding to them both financially and emotionally.
Arranged marraiges are commonplace around the world in many different religions...and respected. I think that as long as the children are not actually being abused, the state should stay out of their business.
If there is anyone that belongs to this 'sect' and is in need of help...I would do my best to help in any way possible. I would be willing to be there for any of these women and children that needs to establish a residence in order to keep their children.
Best wishes to all involved...I hope a resolution is swift and fair.
Sandi
There are probably more pedophiles and sex addicts as catholic priests or church elders than FLDS ( law suits certainly prove this)..using god for selfish gratification is not specific to one religion.. wake up people!! THERE ARE PERVERTS IN YOUR OWN BACK YARD USING GOD TO SATISFY THEIR OWN DEMONS.
ReplyDeleteIf they have nothing to hide, where are they hiding? Today I wondered how could mothers put their children in so much risk? I know they were told the rules. Do not discuss the ongoing investigation with your children. Yet, these mothers spoke on cell phones to their "husbands" and then told their children what to say. If they had nothing to hide why did they do that? Texas has gone far ouside the normal bounds of investigations to make this as easy on the children as possible. As a former CPS worker I can never remember allowing parents to be present prior to interviews. It is natural for husbands and wives to cover for each other. It is a sad but true fact. I look at these women, I read the stories of others who have gone before them, and while I understand they submit to their husbands and view them as the authority, I wonder what about the children. Who protects the children? When parents are unable or unwilling to do the right thing...CPS has to step in. I applaud them in Texas.
ReplyDeleteFormer CPS
why in heck's name is Mary Batchelor's gang accepting donations?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8927979
letters and cards I can see, but the FLDS Elite has no shortage of cold hard cash.
maybe donate to a few of the "left-behinds" in CC to help with their tax bills
jeez
keep sweet eldorado
stg
stg - Perhaps the donations are for those wishing to leave the compound for good and start a new life?
ReplyDeleteI am curious as to why, when it is illegal in every state, the FDLS thinks it is OK to "wed" underage girls to older men? Are you afraid that if you wait until they are old enought to make decisions for themselves that they will choose NOT to participate? Is breaking the law against polygamy not enough, must you force children into illegal and immoral sexual relationships as well?
ReplyDeleteI am all for freedom of religion. It is an unalienable right granted by our forefathers. However, using religion as an excuse for, or as a right to, break the law is not what the founders of this country intended.
While most people could look the other way on the polygamy issue, I'm afraid only pedophiles will be in your corner on sex with underage girls, "married" or not. It seems to me that only a twisted mind could conceive of a religion in which is it not only permissible, but encouraged, to sexually abuse a child. Shame on the parents of these children for not protecting them.
I'm still trying to figure out some of the basic differences between LDS and FLDS. Do the FLDS have fast sunday and do their children have to fast? Do they pass the sacrament on Sunday?
ReplyDeleteIt seems differences are large, but on the details they are similar.
On the marriage issue...becuase only one of the marriages can be legal...the "spiritual marriage" (a total joke), leaves the woman with no legal protection beyond child support if she chooses to leave if she is able to get away with the kid(s). Texas did the right thing. Also, how is brainwashing someone into believing child rape is OK an informed consenting adult?????
ReplyDeleteI did some reading of some of your blogs and while I personally think polygamy to be something I don't agree w/(we haven't seen polygamy since the Old Testament and most of us know that once Jesus gave his life on the cross we came under a "new law"--the New Testament thereby we do things under this new law and away with the old...) I do think that we should err on the side of understanding. HOWEVER, I am a CPS Investigator and a woman and my first concern is safety of children and empowerment of women through knowledge and then let them intelligently decide on which way to go.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am most interested in is how are they educating the women and children of this community? They have beliefs that their world is "Heaven on Earth" but if this includes the men deciding on what these women and children can/cannot know...I am totally against that. Not only this, but I completely agree w/ those of you that argue that we should allow the girls to turn legal age before they enter into contractual marriage, maybe we won't see them in the news quite often. Who knows? If we don't allow this to happen then we will always have cases of statutory rape and the window to allow blatant sexual abuse is wide open because they ARE underage.
I also want to know this if anyone can tell me: what is this talk about them benefiting from our tax payer dollars but yet they choose to abide by their own laws? I know little about this but if this is the case then you can darn sure believe I'm PISSED bc there is no way in HADES that we should allow that to happen. You can't have the best of both worlds! Either get off of the govt help and have your own little community or get back to the rest of America and abide by its laws and quit crying when the law enforcement comes in saying you are breaking laws when you ARE. The women on Good Morning America said "We are American..." but yet skirt the question of "Do you allow young girls to marry?"
And one last thing, does anyone know what the reason is of why they "kick out" teenage boys? I was told bc the older men of the community can have access to these younger girls if these teenage boys are not around. Hmmmm I cannot find any other rationale of why they are doing that. This makes it even more suspect that these men in this community are largely there for their own sexual gratification. This is my feminist side talking now: "Freakin men...."
(scream)
Aimee - from what *I* understand, the reason the boys are told they're to leave is because they aren't holy enough. Why the boys are actually told to leave seems logistical to me, if every man is to take 3 wives, then regardless of the age of the husbands and wives, you'll not have enough woman to go around... you have to dispose of some of the men somehow.
ReplyDeleteFor all those who are expressing displeasure about these people being on welfare (if they even are - not a proven fact)while thumbing their noses at our laws and society I wonder if you feel the same about illegal aliens? A different group who thumb their noses at our laws, refuse to speak our language, create their own communities rather than assimilate into American society and "bleed the beast" draining public resources to the point of collapse.
ReplyDeleteHow many who so harshly judge this group support and feel empanthy for illegal aliens who are guilty of the same thing? As I'm reading these blogs I continue to be astounded at the double standard being applied to this group.
I hope their lawyers make each and every one of them multi-millionaires when this is all said and done.
wwjd
ReplyDeleteIsn't your own post a little bit of a double standard? It sounds as if you are against what the illegal aliens are doing, yet in the end you are cheering for the FLDS who are allegedly doing the same thing? Or are you OK with 'bleeding the beast' and I am misreading you?
fttc
ReplyDeleteJust pointing out double standards from mainstream society. Same thing can be said about both groups but in the case of this group it's used to demonize them while society rushes to defend the other group - it's not politically correct to complain about the second group but perfectly fine to complain about this group. I think if society is going to establish a standard of acceptable behavior it should be enforced equally regardless of what group is involved.
For the record I'm not in favor of either group taking from a system they are not willing to pay into.
I think the civil liberties of these families have been trampled on by the actions of the government in Texas. If that can be proven I think they should have their day in court and the penalties levied against the agencies who abused their power should be severe.
Thanks for clarifying!
ReplyDeleteI see where you come from now. However, I have not seen the hesitancy to complain about the illegal immigrants. Perhaps that is a regional thing. I live in a very conservative area and don't spend a lot of time listening to national media.
How could anyone take such extreme action as the state of Texas has on the word of an unknown woman that appears to hold some sort of grudge against a group of people. They must look at this realistically! If you take a town of 4000 people anywhere in the United States and remove all of the children they will probably discover that there are a few children in that town that are being abused. They will also discover that many more are not in any way abused and being raised by loving parents. This situation is no different in my opinion, I’m sure if they dig deep enough they will find a few that do need help (the same as in any other community). The problem I have is that all of the children that have never been abused are being abused right now by them. These children will never be that same after what that state is forcing them to endure. If they are returned to their parents the children will always feel in the back of their minds that their parents are criminals in some way or this would have never happened to them. God bless the children the state of Texas is abusing right now.
ReplyDeleteOkay something I must clear up for the person that said "if I don't like someone, I can report that they are abusing their children, and those children will instantly be taken away with no questions whatsoever!"
ReplyDeleteI am a CPS worker for the state of TX and you MUST understand that we do not take kids away if a report is made. We INVESTIGATE and if there is anything that resembles an unsafe and unfit home for the children we try to find ways to resolve it if THAT doesn’t work THEN we remove the kids. It is a hard and long process that CPS and the families do NOT like.
Therefore, the reason we removed those children bc there was substantial evidence to suggest that YES there was a abuse to a minor within that community. If there wasn't TRUST me, we wouldn't be there bc we have thousands of other severely abused and neglected children that we have to take care of outside of this polygamist community.
Yes you are correct, some ppl do make false reports bc they don't like someone and that's why we INVESTIGATE to find out the truth. So please, don't say things like that bc it is hard enough that individuals such as myself has to deal with hundreds of ppl thinking that we are BABY SNATCHERS when in actuality that is the LAST we do if it is serious enough.
Being that these kids were temporarily taken away means only one thing: WE FOUND SOMETHING.
Okay something I must clear up for the person that said "if I don't like someone, I can report that they are abusing their children, and those children will instantly be taken away with no questions whatsoever!"
ReplyDeleteI am a CPS worker for the state of TX and you MUST understand that we do not take kids away if a report is made. We INVESTIGATE and if there is anything that resembles an unsafe and unfit home for the children we try to find ways to resolve it if THAT doesn’t work THEN we remove the kids. It is a hard and long process that CPS and the families do NOT like.
Therefore, the reason we removed those children bc there was substantial evidence to suggest that YES there was a abuse to a minor within that community. If there wasn't TRUST me, we wouldn't be there bc we have thousands of other severely abused and neglected children that we have to take care of outside of this polygamist community.
Yes you are correct, some ppl do make false reports bc they don't like someone and that's why we INVESTIGATE to find out the truth. So please, don't say things like that bc it is hard enough that individuals such as myself has to deal with hundreds of ppl thinking that we are BABY SNATCHERS when in actuality that is the LAST we do if it is serious enough.
Being that these kids were temporarily taken away means only one thing: WE FOUND SOMETHING.
One thing you must get straight. We are talking about the FLDS community "bleeding the beast" please don't bring in illegal immigrants into this bc that just stirs up another heated discussion.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes you are correct the illegal immigrants do take advantage of the govt help but lets think intelligently about this. All throughout history minorities have been told not to come here and many "Americans" agreed with that. Hmmm now let's see here....Native Americans were here first when thousands of the Europeans came here and raped, killed, enslaved, and massacred millions of them. When there hardly any of them left, they moved to Africa and started the whole process again. And NOW, when we supposedly have so much "nationalism" going on about the Mexicans many ppl want to band together and say kick them out of here when a lot of them WANT to be citizens and yes not all illegals coming here are here for the right reasons. (read about gang MS-18) The point I'm driving is one from my point of view, I know but the truth about our American history is that we want to benefit from everything other cultures have to offer then we want to kick them out, discount, and discredit them. This is land that hardly any of us have real rights to except Native Americans so I say let all the Mexicans come over if they want. We can't take any of this with us when we die, so why get all upset about it. We live in a world where there is much blending of cultures and socieities but yet so called "Americans" want to exclude ppl out.
Lastly, the FLDS community operates differently than our so called "illegals". They know dogone well what they are doing and know how to get the maximum benefit because they KNOW that our govt doesn't honor multiple marriages so they make the women get on the WIC program. Most of the illegals here just want to WORK and provide...the FLDS community wants to "bleed the beast" claiming that "Satan" (the outside world to their world) is supporting God's work. There's a huge difference.
WWJD--
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I'm annoyed at the illegal aliens too. I don't want anyone to be in the US, take my (hardworking taxpayer) money while they don't do anything to help themselves. Then even to see what Americans who are legal and in our society spend their foodstamps on. Do you know how many bags of Cheetos are bought with our money? Kids should have fruit, vegetables..stuff like that. We should NOT be paying for cheetos.
And as far as women being abused and that's why they act the way they do. Let me tell you something..I was abused sexually as a child. When I finally told someone in my early twenties and it got back to my family half of them disowned me because they did not want to deal with the truth of the situation. But I can guarantee to you that no matter what my family does, what my friends do, what my neighbors do-- I will take my child out of any situation that is harmful to them. NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENED TO ME! I will not pretend it is not happening. I will take care of my children and let them enjoy life as a child that I never was able to enjoy.
I am even more vigilant about making sure that NO ONE is harming my child in anyway. No relative, no teacher ...NO ONE! I don't care what society I'm in. I would get out and give my children better lives. I believe the "oh they were abused so that's probably why they stay and allow it for their children" EXCUSE too many times. If you know it's wrong, don't do anything about it (NO MATTER WHAT YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH) and just stay quiet...then you deserve to have every single child taken away. I wouldn't even allow them to have pets.
Excuses are not reasons for child abuse.
Religion is not a reason for child abuse.
Family is not a reason for child abuse.
THESE ARE ALL EXCUSES!
In my opinion, We Americans have been slowing, but surely losing our civil rights! I feel as an adult in America that our childrens future in regards to Civil Right are minimum to none the way we are going!! But our children just slowly adapt to our Civil Rights, as some of us have done! Our society just keeps getting more difficult, and busier! Do we even notice overall what exactly what our Civil Rights are anymore??
ReplyDeleteChildren have the "civil right" of being physically safe.
ReplyDeleteYes, that right is being ignored by some people in this group.
If these parents can't look out for their children, others will.
If I was an abused child, I would hope and pray someone would step up to the plate on my behalf.
From a legal perspective, civil rights have not been violated and this is why:
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I, too, question the facts in this case as well as the validity of the raid. Texas authorities should've identified and corroborated with the alleged 16 year-old victim that supposedly made the call. On the other hand, Texas law doesn't require tangible evidence to produce probable cause. To produce probable cause (which gives authorities the right to investigate further or to assume that something illegal is taking place), a single complaint is all that is necessary. Though I hate to admit it, Texas authorities were acting within legal boundaries when they raided the compound. When they realized that some of the residents were underage and/or already parents and/or pregnant, it gave them the authority to detain the residents of the compound. The compound is now the scene of a major criminal investigation...Because of this, authorities can legally exercise control over it.
So where are all the men right now?
ReplyDeleteHaven't seen even one of them on the tele!
Those men are probably already starting plans for a new "Castle," and looking for new wifes in another state!!
ReplyDeleteUmm on the illegal aliens issue~ Yes that is a major issue, and that started WAY before the war! We pay taxes, report our income, try to afford medical insurance for our families, b/c some american citizens cannot just run across the border get pregnant and get all the free welfare they want! Oh how about the diseases that are suddenly araising again like TB! What about illegals getting drivers license, BUT US citizens have to be vaild in every aspect or their denied.
ReplyDeleteLet's not forget about foreigners who have been in the US for years, and are still paying to have freedom! This is not a racial thing to me, call it what you want BUT it's reality!! pisses me off that I work my butt off for my family, and it's bad enough the american citizens on welfare, but now we have to pay for people who have had not earned their citizenship. They are humans and I would never hurt any human being, but lifes a bitch, and we all should go through the same process! They have to learn to live by the American way!! What will be left for the future of our children. I guess we can run across the border to Mexico or where ever, and just live off their system.
I shouldn't even have gotten on this soap box, b/c this blog is not about that! But come on!!
Children have a right not to be raped and forced into "marriages" with pedophiles.
ReplyDeleteWomen have a right to freedom of movement and speech.
Young men have a right to be cared for by their birth parents and not dumped.
Parents have a right (and responsibility) to care and protect their children...not to send them to some compound with predators.
There are all kinds of rights to think about in this situation.
I'd say the safety of the children tops any particular "right" that their captors and abusers are flying the flag for.
I'm sorry to say but "religious freedom" doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and just call it your religion then get away with it. Our "religious freedom" is that we can choose the religion we wish to belief and participate with as long as it abides by the law!!
ReplyDeleteOK, I'm going to use really short words so some of you idiots can understand. Freedom of Religion means I have the right to believe in the gods of the Volcano and I can worship them in any way I choose --- EXCEPT I may not sacrifice virgins to those gods. Freedom of religion gives you the right to BELIEVE anything you want --- Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, Leprechauns --- Whatever! You may not, however act in such a way that is illegal or infringes on the rights of others such as the rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness that extend even to the children of the FLDS. My opinion on this matter is not unique to me. Others like Thomas Jefferson, John Madison and Abraham Lincoln said as much decades ago.
ReplyDeleteHooray for Texas!
A child of the Alamo
Thomas Jefferson
Aimee ~
ReplyDeleteThe accusations you make against the FLDS people and the attitude that what they do is different than what illegal aliens do doesn't hold water. Even if they work 24/7 it doesn't change that they are milking the system if they are not paying taxes on the money they're earning. Even if they don't draw a dime of welfare they are using the roads, schools, etc. that everyone else's taxes are paying for. I can tell you they are taking every dime they can get from the welfare system. I checked groceries to pay my way through college and 99% of the non-english speaking people who came through the line used food stamps.
There is no difference - it's taking advantage of a system you refuse to support or pay into. Do you know the FLDS aren't paying taxes on their farm or dairy operations?
More judgement and accusations without evidence.
ReplyDeleteGood to see the U.S. leading the world in justice.
Shame its all down hill.
Morons
DUE PROCESS DOES NOT ALWAYS REQUIRE A TRIAL-TYPE PROCEEDING. For those interested, you should take a close study of the Constitutional Law, it might enlighten some of the people here. Nuisance per se may be abated summarily. Obviously, the polygamy practice which involved minors and incest posed an immediate danger to society, especially to those children.
ReplyDeleteWe have to know that as much as the bill of rights must be respected, it's not absolute. The state has the right to regulate such rights, including the freedom of religion, and these same rights regulate such powers inherent to the state. It creates an equilibrium between authority and liberty. Yes, children are entitled to the same rights, but considering their age, and by virtue of the doctrine of parens patriae, the state may and should decide for what is best for these children, who are obviously in need of guidance. Being in their situation is not their choice. And besides, the state can exercise police power, inherent in its existence in every sovereign, to protect itself and the public. This case obviously has a big effect, indirectly as it may be to the public welfare or public moral, and therefore, justifies the act of the state. We have to understand that individual liberties may be subordinated for the interest of a greater number, as justified in the latin maxim salus populi est suprema lex.
It isn’t the government’s fault here. Incest is not something a civilized person would even contemplate doing. It’s horrifying, no matter how you look at it. Children must be protected, and I agree that the adults responsible now were the children before. I feel sorry that no one helped them when they needed it. It doesn’t change the fact that their acts were wrong, and that the children who can be protected now must be afforded such protection. It’s about time. These people who keeps lashing out at the government must understand what the founding fathers had intended when they drafted the Constitution.
Did I miss something? Where do you get the idea that incest is involved here? I keep hearing this brought up on the blogs and I didn't catch it in the reports of the court or officers.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why anybody feels sorry for these people at all. Look, it's not the fact that every man gets to "own" how ever many women he wants to. It is about all of these crying robots on television are reaching out to get their kids back under their husband's urging. Why are they urging so bad ( the men behind it)? Because they want to have sex with all of these underage kids. Me personally, I don't feel sorry for this crying woman "I want my 7 year old daughter back". Why, so some 50 year old can take her as a child bride and have his way with her in another 5 years? This whole sect is set up by perverted old men so that no matter how old they get, they can have sex with young girls. NASTY!
ReplyDeletewe can go on and on... but it does no good. Simple fact you live in the USA you follow the laws. Under age marrige is agaisnt the law. and having more then one wife is against the law. thats what this is about. YES sadly the kids are being tossed into the middle of this but if FDLS were law following citzens then none of this would have happen. ABUSE is not just beating a child. ABUSE is having older men marry your underage kids and think its ok. IF a child says they are being beat and raped you can expect whats going on in TX to happen anywhere. Same if an Amish child said they were being hurt. Same if my child said they were being hurt. you live in a compound, where no one knows child is whos you HAVE to expect this. Im sorry. Im sorry the ladies of FDLS are so blind. And Im sorry your men have no backbone.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough, everyone seems to be screaming "we are a country of laws"
ReplyDeleteand the law must be followed in the best interest of the children.
That said, perhaps someone can explain to me why the State of Texas in its own criminal/civil actions being taken at this time can not follow it as well?
My comment surrounds legal representation of multiple clients and their respective interest to each.
There is such a thing as "Conflicts of Interest" in dual or multiple representations, and when they run afoul of one another, then it is no longer a possible conflict of interest perceived, but a conflict of interest absolute and unconstitutional.
The law of the land here in America refuses to tolerate conflict of interest situations to exist in representing multiple clients who's interest may run a foul one another
from the on set and obvious, however where there is even a possibility of a conflict of interest perceived rather than actual, the court..." must hold an independent hearing for each client to assure that each client is fully aware of the dangers inherent in multiple representation cases and the court must inquire of each, on the record to assure those dangers are understood by the clients and appreciate the possible wavier of many rights to independent and conflict free representation.
That has not taken place in this case that the Judge in this matter
has for whatever reason has elected to simply ignore this absolute right to each and every client in her courtroom.
Mass lumping of cases without specific on the record inquiries of each client/attorney relationship involved has acted to denied effective assistance of counsel without having held a hearing to each in order to ferret out the "possibilities of a conflict of interest" and where the possibility exist the court must elect to independent counsel to assure no conflict of interest exist.
Its obvious the children may provide via forced DNA evidence that will/could result in serious criminal charges against the parents or other siblings.
Any attorney dually representing the multiple interest of more than a single client in this matter is face with, rather than potential conflicts of interest, but actual conflicts of interest to their client(s) detriment and amounts to no representation at all.
The safe guards of individual hearings regarding same of each and every client/attorney "must" be held to assure that even the mere "perception of a possible conflict of interest" does not exist and take immediate steps to correct same before any further procedural steps in each case can continue.
One thing is absolute, and that is the right to independent and conflict free representation and in this matter, neither can be assured without hearing to assure no conflicts exist, perceived or actual.
I find it telling that the Texas Court has elected, along with the attorneys involved, to wave these clients rights without first mandatory ordering of a hearing(s) and "on the record" either obtain those waivers in a knowing and intelligent fashion by questioning each, as to the possibilities of conflicts of interest and knowing waive their rights to independent and conflict free effective assistance of counsel, respectfully.
Thank goodness we don't have enough lawyers in Texas to accomplish that!
ReplyDeleteSomeone shut the window, it's windy in here!!
I have been watching the goings on from over here in the UK and find with some degree of fascination that people seem to be objecting the the civil rights of these women and children being violated by the state when they went in and removed them. A few things i feel should be said about this are as follows:
ReplyDelete1. The women and children appear to be so brainwashed they have no idea they are living a miserable existance.
2. The people on the FLDS seem to stand by why there teen age boys are thrown out so they arent competition for the old men.
3. They have a policy of bleeding the beast. (taking money out of your country).
4. American seem uncomfortable with the women of Afghanistan being abused by the men over there and object to them being made to dress a certain way yet some seem to think its ok in their own back yard.
5. Children should read, play, dig, shout, laugh, learn. Children live what they learn and for generations they have been taught this way of life.
6. It will take along time to de-programme them and the women from what they have been brought up with.
7. Any child born since warren jeffs took over will have never known joy.
8. There are your soliders all over the world fighting for freedom, stop banging on about civil rights and fight for theirs.
9. If none of that convinces you then read Escape by Carolyn Jessop, its incomprehensible that this is happening in America the home of the brave the land of the free. I love America i love that if you want something badly enough anything is possible. Seems to me that doesnt apply to the women and children of the FLDS/YFZ compound cause lets face it they had a right not be be invaded didnt they???
Fight for their civil rights for protection from the state and they will face more persecution from the likes of Merril Jessop and the elders of the FLDS.
It's time to bust up this cult once and for all. The Arizona/Utah authorities are starting to crack down and this Texas raid may shut down this crackpot group at YFZ. Most of the children will be returned to their mothers after they receive counseling and deprogramming. But they won't return to the FLDS community, I predict. The men will be stuck with their old wives.
ReplyDeleteI'm disgusted by you "Civil Rights" people who ignore the rampant violation of the right to pursue education and freedom and happiness DENIED to the women of FLDS. These people clearly raped their young girls and forced them into a lifestyle not of their choosing. This is not a religion. This is a cult ran by child abusers such as Warren Jeffs who admitted he was a fraud. The rampant welfare fraud alone is reason to shut them down. Have you heard of RICO? Good-bye YFZ.
4/28/2008 7:59 PM
ReplyDeleteBig problem with that: Ask any FLDS member taken away, and they will say just the opposite, that it was the taking away by CPS that denied them their pursuit of happiness and education and freedom, and raped them and forced them into a lifestyle not of their choosing, BECAUSE of their religion. The U.S. practice of murdering 4,000 babies every day is the cult, complete with daily mass-blood-sacrifice, and not one welfare recipient on the YFZ. Those who were formerly approved were legal, or they wouldn'd have been approved.
Street
I don't believe in orginized religion because of many reasons. The Hasitic Jew think they are saved and that we are all animals and we are beneath being spoken to by them. The Muslims think they are the chozen people and wage wars for there purpose. These poligimist think they are chosen and must have 20 wives and 100 children. What bothers me is that in the process of being so above the rest of us, these religions ignor the rest of the world and tell there kind that who ever does not believe what they believe is eveil. My grandfather saved 2 people from drowning in his youth. He was a cathloic until the day he died. So he went to hell? A man who worked all his life in a coal mine to feed his family and was liked by every one is in hell because he is not a Hasitic jew, or a Muslim or a Ladder day poligimist. I don't buy it for a second. And I am sick of religions that oppress women. Men are the ones with the larger sexual area in there brains They are the ones with the sexual impusle problems not us women. So why don't they stop covering up the women in these religions and put friggen blinders on there perverted eyes!!!!!!!!
ReplyDelete