FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Friday, April 04, 2008
Cops Raid YFZ
I drove by the YFZ awhile ago and the cops had the road blocked. The Eldorado Success reports that they are raiding the place READ HERE
This is NOT a Religious Issue This is NOT a Marriage Issue This is NOT a Sexual Abuse Issue
This IS a Civil Rights Issue.
These parents have deprived their own children basic civil rights and knowledge of common law. This is the only way this can be ended ....and this NEEDS to be ended
What they really need to do, is their job and that seems to be what they are doing. If a girl has called the police with a concern they need to check on her. News report says they are being very cooperative, and I think the people of YFZ want to address her safety as well. I don't agree with a lot of what goes on within that group, but you can be sure they have the same feelings for their children as any of us.
Texas troopers remove busload of children from secretive polygamist retreat built by Jeffs By MICHELLE ROBERTS Associated Press Writer ELDORADO, Texas (AP) -- Child welfare officials and state troopers Friday removed a busload of children from a secretive religious retreat built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs following a complaint.
Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state agency, confirmed that a white bus that drove out of the compound accompanied by troopers was filled mostly with girls. She could not immediately say how many.
Authorities surrounded the retreat, built by the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, late Thursday and served search and arrest warrants Friday.
Meisner said her agency is "investigating whether any children are in danger."
Schleicher County Attorney Raymond Loomis Jr. said a girl apparently called state authorities to complain, but he had no other details. The case was being handled by prosecutors in San Angelo, north of this tiny west Texas community. The district attorney's office there declined comment.
Tom Vinger, a Department of Public Safety spokesman, said his agency was responding to a complaint but he could provide no other details. He wouldn't say how many people were being interviewed or how many officers were involved.
"The people inside are cooperating. They provided all the people we wanted to talk to," he said.
The ranch is north of Eldorado, down a narrow paved road.
Authorities blocked access to the compound's gate, keeping people miles outside the area.
Only the compound's 80-foot-tall, gleaming white temple is visible on the wind-swept desert horizon, but Vinger said the ranch has numerous buildings. Local authorities in 2006 put the figure at about 150.
The retreat was built by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The congregation, known as FLDS and led by the reclusive Jeffs since his father's death in 2002, is one of several groups that split from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints based in Salt Lake City decades after it renounced polygamy in 1890.
In November, Jeffs was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.
In Arizona, Jeffs is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives. He is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., awaiting trial.
The group's retreat, about 160 miles northwest of San Antonio, is located on a former exotic game ranch. The group bought the property in 2004 for $700,000 and began an ambitious construction program anchored by the temple.
(Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
The children were taken from the community in Baptist church buses. Perhaps the Baptists would like for their young girls to be interviewed about sexual activities in their homes. It is a sad day for Texas.
News report just reported that 51 children have been removed from the ranch and are under the protection of the Texas Child Protective Services. An earlier report said that two small bus loads of teen aged girls (estimated number was two dozen) had been removed. The arrest of one male is pending. Presumed cause for the pending arrest is open practice of polygamy with a minor child.
To me it sounds more like the 1953 Short Creek raid than Waco!
Do the CPS / DPS people have a clue what they're dealing with? - that these children are NOT like other "abused" children they've dealt with in their careers up to this point?
I sure hope the children don't end up more damaged as a result of incompetent treatment and questioning - even if it's unintentional.
MERRILL JESSOP IS AN EVIL MAN. HAVING BEEN RELATED TO HIM, I HAVE KNOWLEDGE, THAT HE CONTROLS HIS FAMILY WITH HIS FISTS. SO DO MANY OF THE OTHER MEN, INCLUDING DEAR MR. WARREN JEFFS. WHAT, LEAVE THIS PEOPLE ALONE! THE POOR GIRLS THAT ARE BORN INTO THIS INFESTION, NEVER STAND A CHANCE IN LIFE.
I did read David Thobideau's book about Waco. I highly recomend it to others. Thank God it is the state and not the Feds dealing with this one!
These people would save themselves a whole lot of trouble by leaving the girls alone until they are of age. When I was in Colorado City, marriage was a way "out" of the troubles of teenage years. If a girl acted "wild" (talking to boys, wearing tight clothes, listening to worldly music) she was often married-off in order to keep her from "getting into trouble". In the earlier 1900's the girls were married as young as 12 to keep them from Gentile men. These people are going to have to take a look at their practices and modify them for the better or continue to face victim lawsuits, public scrutiny, and legal intervention.
BTW, isn't Dale Barlow who Louisa was/is married to? That was another underage issue.... Will they ever learn?
It does sound like CPS is doing the best they can given the situation, I don't know that anyone that hasn't lived inside of the FLDS compound really knows what's going on - and I'm unsure of what changes have happened since Jeffs' removal.
To me, for one of the 16 year old girls to have called CPS, I'm wondering what kind of "worldly" influences the kids have experienced despite the best efforts of the elders within the compound? The kids are still being taught in schools on the compound, correct? If the report is true, not only did this girl have access to a phone (they don't exactly let ma-bell inside to the best of my knowledge so perhaps a cell phone?), but she knew who to call and how to get the number.... would someone as sheltered as they try and keep these kids have that information?
Anon, why don't you spew your venom somewhere where it will do you some good? Go see a physchiatrist, get some help for yourself, and quit defiling every forum with your lies. I know U. Warren very well, and I know he never used his fists or any other method of force in his life. You are vile, and full of hate, I pity your life.
Hopefully, they will find foster homes for the girls with families that have a Christian-fundamentalist slant (like re-born evangalists). I'm not one, nor will I ever be, but I think it probably would be the best for the girls if they are going to be away from their families for awhile. I'm a vegetarian, and I know it would be difficult for my boys if they went to a non-veg family--confusing, you know.
Beg Pardon? Warren Jeffs did use force. It is called mind control. First he brainwashed, then he threatened to take away their families if they didn't do what he wanted them to. The mind is very powerful and he knew that.
What about the parents of these underage plural wives? As I understand these marriages don't happen without their consent. They too should be held accountable for much of what happens to their young daughters.
This situation is a sad 'catch-22'. Taking these girls out the 'cult' could potentially be just as damaging as leaving them in. Since they are indoctrinated 'brainwashed' that every non-FLDS is an 'agent of the devil' and evil, they are likely not going to say anything negative about their 'family', simply out of fear of hell and damnation. It seems like it would be a good idea if the CPS/other authorities use former FLDS member as 'consultants' (ie: Carolyn Jessop, etc). Since these are the ONLY people who truly know what these kids are thinking/feeling. Maybe they should give these kids' mothers a chance to get out...and be with their children. Such a sad, delicate situation.
Why not send the Texas Rangers to Houston or Dallas? There are plenty of African Americans who practice polygamy there. Common for siblings to have different fathers.
How is this different than the mormons polygamy? No one gets married so its OK to have a herd of women with children from multiple fathers? Double Standard without any doubt?
I do not like Warren, but I feel that taking a 6 month old baby is plain wrong! They cant talk, so what is the point?? Another thing I dont understand is, child abuse happens everyday, why dont they work more on that as much as they focus on these people? Just a thougth.
It was interesting that the authorities used buses from a rival church, the First Baptist Church of Eldorado, to take the girls away (although maybe there were no other buses available.) Some who saw the news reports probably falsely inferred that the "First Baptist Church, Eldorado Texas" was the name of the polygamist cult.
First of all, let me state that this is not a good situation and I am concerned about the ability of Texas' Child Protective Services to do well by the children that it has removed from YFZ. I predict there will be a lot of problems out of it.
HOWEVER...It seems to me that there are some people commenting here who have no problem with leaving children in a situation where they are being raped.
Yes, RAPED.
Let's not mince words or pussyfoot around this. There are some of you who would have this RAPE--because girls under 16 cannot legally consent to sexual intercourse--rather than have the state intervene. (And girls between 16 and 18 can't consent if the other party is more than 3 years older than she is.)
That's pretty sick and twisted if you ask me.
As it turns out, it looks like the judge in charge has decided that none of the children should remain at YFZ for the time being. I have heard that 167 kids have been pulled out. Another thing that I have heard is that the authorities are trying to figure out if some of the older children might not be the mothers of some of the babies.
This is a very sad situation, but it was not started by the state authorities, it was started by a group that decided it knew better than the larger society and offered up its girls to rape as soon as they had their first periods. Women and girls are considered property in a scenario like this--and we're not!
So you people who were against the state moving in, think about whether or not you'd like your precious daughters raped by some man because their church belief says that it's their right to marry off a 14 YO since she's now able to have children.
You may hate the state, but think about the young women for once, who are being used by men as trophies for lust and power. So get off your high horses!
I think in a small town they use the buses that are available, school buses were also used. Would it not make sense that the infamts removed could be the children of those underage mothers that may have been placed in protective custody. Hopefully any children that didn't require intervention will be returned to their homes soon. They probably have a lot of frightened kids on their hands.
Get off your high horse whoever you are. You have been fed a steady diet of bull puckey for long enough, why don't you try something else, your taste buds would enjoy it I'm sure. A strong mind is one that thinks for itself, not believes every malcontent filthy liar and every bit of media spin. Nobody, and I mean nobody is being raped!! I promise you that the 6 month old babies aren't being raped. I know of one 14 year old marriage, but in general the girls are older than that, you can keep bringing that up for your purpose of sensationalism as long as you'd like, it still doesn't make it the truth. I also know that every person is given a choice or asked if they are willing, they are not forces into the marriages, and you can go ahead and give us your drivel about brainwashing all you want to, I know I've been there, I wasn't brain washed, I loved what I lived. The people of the United States are the ones who are brain washed, with all the TV, sports etc etc, your rights and priviledges are being pulled out from under you and you won't know it till you fall flat on your arses. Your more brain washed than they are. Only the Lord God of Heaven has the right to judge us, you don't and I don't have the right to judge you. The United States of America is supposed to be where you can practice what you believe, I know it doesn't fit in your belief system, you've already notified us of that, what you believe doesn't fit into theirs either, but they aren't trying to take your kids. Your analogy of how would you like your children to be raped is erroneous as well, because they won't touch your children, they home school their own, they teach and train them, and it's the same as you do, except your are being fed sex ed and darwinism in the public school and probably most very probably having sexual relations that you don't have a frieking clue about. Hypocrites!!
I have been really busy lately and I missed the beginning of this.
Anon 4/05/2008 10:46 AM: I agree with you. Yes, child abuse happens every day. It is in the news as much as anything else. Even as often as anything polygamous/abuse related is. It just seems like there is a lot of media attention devoted to the subject of polygamous abuse because that is what WE notice. I do it too. I can't help it; it's who I am. I usually pass over the news with an uninterested eye until anything polygamous is mentioned. THEN I sit up and take notice because the article might be about someone I know. I really do not think there is more media focused on polygamy than anything else. It only seems like there is.
Anon 4/05/2008 12:24 PM- I agree with most of what you said. Where there is abuse it needs to stop.
When the authorities received the call from the 16 yr. old girl, they were legally bound to help her- investigate and find out what was going on. They can't just ignore a call for help to protect someone's right to religious freedom. If there is no abuse found, the children will be returned. But the investigation has to take place first. IMHO- the good people in Texas will be as gentle and kind with the children as they can be until the time if/when they return home. There had to be some actual abuse going on for them to have enough probable cause to remove then children, specifically the first 18 children and for there to be a pending arrest of one male.
I believe there will also be some instances where there no abuse will be found and at least some of the children will be returned to their parents.
these people are f-ing nuts and need to have there nuts cut off..."hey I would like you to meet my 20 child brides, what's that? No i know that they are all 12 but I'm too much of a social outcast to get a chick my own age" If any of the girls have been hurt i say its time for a little TEXAS JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!
What if your child was taken from your home and no abuse had occurred? How would you feel? Yet ALL the children were taken from the commune. I can't believe all families were guilty of abuse. Talk about an overkill by authorities. I've known polys, they love their children too.
You can call it whatever you like but 16 year old children having sex with 50 year old men is rape, I don't give a hoot if they're "married" if her parents know or if she thinks he's the hottest thing next to the big JD himself, it's rape and it's sick. I'm 30 and the idea gives me the oogies (technical term), I couldn't imagine.
Poor kids. I really hope that something can be done to help them, but like others here I'm afraid that CPS is just not set up to deal with a situation of this magnitude.
Ideally, the best situation would be for the adults at the compound to agree not to marry off their underage girls and for the girls to be further protected by their parents. One can only hope. My heart goes out to them all.
Here is what we do know: 183 removed from the ranch (according to the SLT).
What we don't know: Why they were removed and when they will be returned.
Before we judge the State or the FLDS, lets wait and see why they took the children and when they will be returned. The State is dealing with a touchy and volatile subject here, and I’m sure they are the last ones who want to make the situation worse than it already is.
It is good to hear that those at the ranch are cooperating with the authorities. Even if all those removed are brought back quickly, my fear is that this is only going to drive the FLDS even more underground regardless of whether or not abuses and abusers are found and brought to justice. The more underground and secretive they become, the easier it is for those who would do wrong and abuse others to get away with abuse, and the harder it becomes for their victims to get help. It is possible that there are many victims who don't even realize that they are victims at the ranch, but force as a means to "save" someone has never worked in the long run.
For those who are saying less than kind things about the FLDS men....It is easy to judge a whole group by the actions of a few, but to say all the FLDS men are rapists and child abusers when you don't know all the men, just the actions of a few, is nothing less than jumping to erroneous conclusions.
Most of the FLDS men are loving, hard working, and honest individuals who love their families and do all they can for them. In my opinion, their biggest fault is that they have allowed their loyalty to a man become stronger than their integrity. I dare say even most of the men who have married underage girls or allowed their underage daughters to be married did so out of loyalty to the “prophet,” not because they are a group of pedophiles who lust after young women. Branding them as something they are not will only make them mistrust you even more, when a genuine and understanding person is what is really needed to help them out of a bad situation. I thing the sheriff down there has been wise in his way of dealing with those on the ranch.
Nothing good is ever going to be accomplished when both sides view the other as evil, misguided and wrong.
God has blessed and is blessing me, and I'm quite sure He is not taking note of the ones your offering. I know I'm brainwashed, just as the LDS church of this day brainwashes their children, and Baptists theirs, and Jehova Witnesses are theirs, and Darwin teachers the classroom around them, and Christianity in general brainwashing their congregations!! What is the difference? Republicans, Democrats, Independents, all brainwashed in some time of their life, everybody has their own opinions, different opinions. I have to not love what I live cause you say? Well, then I'd rather not live, I have a bright mind, I have a degree, I know how to think inside your box, and outside of it as well. You trying to take my rights away will only weaken you to what is happening right under your nose, in this once great nation. Our constitution divinely inspired from above is going to hang by a thread, hell, it's hanging by one now. This episode only strengthens that fact. I say again only God has the right to judge between me and thee. I reserve no judgment for you, yet you do for me. Well, alright then, I still love you.
1:20 p.m., if you know of a 14 YO getting married, I charge you to report it to the authorities. I don't care what jurisdiction within the USA you're in, it's illegal. If you don't, you're a lawbreaker, and I don't care what high-and-mighty stories you're telling yourself right about now, I'm calling you out as an enabler of child sexual abuse.
Let's stop pussyfooting around this. What you're endorsing is rape. Why don't you just flat out say that because of your religious beliefs, you have no problems with teenage girls being raped by men much older than themselves in something that they call "marriage" but looks to all the world outside like giving "things" (girls) to the most powerful men as rewards for loyalty to the prophet and the leadership.
We people in the outside world may not have it all together, but at least we're not offering up our precious daughters for rape to men who are old enough to be their grandfathers...or turning out the girls' brothers to fend for themselves because they represent a threat to the oldsters' harems.
Your world is sick, sick, sick.
But I really am concerned about the kids and young women who have been taken away from the ranch. I worry that they will not be served right by a state bureaucracy that doesn't have much of a clue about plural marriage and about the doctrines these people have lived with all their lives. I mean, you can't just hand a 9 YO girl from the ranch a t-shirt and a pair of jeans and tell her she's going to wear that! To her, that'd be like walking naked down the street. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
I am also concerned that as far as we know right now, the girl who apparently called in has not been found and that is why the authorities are still out at the ranch. They're looking for her. I hope to God that she's alright.
I hope this turns out well, but there are so many variables, it's hard to say.
Something's not right here. Dale Barlow is in Arizona, according to his probation officer, and he claims he's never even heard of her. Nobody can say who the girl is that reported abuse, and they have yet to find her. I'm beginning to believe this was a hoax or a fabricated story. Our government has got to start getting better intel!!! Reminds me of our invasion into Iraq!
what ever you may say about it, the truth about the matter is; if these girls were allowed to grow up and make there own decisions, they wouldn't marry men old enough to be there grandfather. stick that in your sanctified pipe and smoke it.
Duff, your thinking too hard again. LOL!! Who's sanctified? Your opinion obviously, I made a choice, I was asked and I made that choice, so you will say I was brainwashed. Hogwash. Free will and choice, and a beautiful choice at that, I would way rather be married to a wonderful man that has matured and mellowed, than a young know it all buck. How do you know what I would think? Huh? Your not even a women, stick that in your pipe and smoke it love!!
Hey uncaduff you must not know many 16 year old girls usualy they don't listen. at least these parents know how to keep there teenagers from getting pregnant before they are married.
I have one more thing to say. you people don't have a right to say anything unless you know someone personaly that was abused, married young, or even onyone in the religion(even though you can't judge a hole people by one person)you have no idea what is best for them.
Oh enough with the baptist buses already. They were available so they were used. The real question here is it good or bad, legal or illegal for the authorities to remove all the children from the compound. Why were they unable to question them there? Did they discover something they think had them all in danger?
These are the facts we need to know.
I feel bad for these families, though I understand many don't want my pity. I feel most religions simply hold their followers hostage and it's certainly not just an FLDS thing.
Please don't bog us down with the silly bus issue though.
What concerns me is that the authorities have stated that they have not been able to locate the girl who called in the complaint and Warren Jeff's lemmings...I mean followers, believe in blood atonement. They kill any of their own who betray them. Here is a link about a crematorium there with a high enough temperature to destroy DNA. http://www.childbrides.org/control_ABC4_crematorium_oven_allegedly_ordered_for_temple.html
I hope the police search every square inch of that compound.
Hahaha, Married young! "At least their parents know how to keep their teenagers from getting pregnant before they are married" Hahaha. That's only cause they marry as soon as they CAN get pregnant.
There is no proof that a crematorium exists at the temple. There is no proof that anyone was blood atoned by the FLDS. The authorities need to investigate as the law specifies, but these are American citizens with religious and personal liberties like the rest of us. Let's not let predjudice cloud our judgement.
I am not saying that I agree with everything that goes on in FLDS but who are we to tell them what to believe or what to think! Now I am not saying that it is okay to beat up on your wife/wives or children but really for those that are not being abused and believe this is the way to heaven, Who are you (plural) to say that is not okay. We don't tell other religious groups what to believe..... we even let some hate monger (ie Rev Wright)......So don't tell these (nice people- says the locals) that are really minding there own business that they should find a new way into heaven.
4/5/9:00 pm. my first impulse was to apply a little balm to your wounded ego in the form of an apology, but then old memories came flooding back. you see, when I was growing up at old Short Creek,most of the young people had much more choice in who they married. many of them chose to enter into polygamy, granted,but they for the most part chose husbands closer too there own age, unless they had pressure from men in leadership positions. I recall hearing a conversation by several girls just older than me,(I was ten years old at the time)they were about fourteen at the time is my guess. they were discussing the circumstances that one of them found herself in. it seems she had two of the members of the priesthood council telling her that it had been revealed to each of them that she should marry them. both of these men were in there forties. needless to say the young lady was confused. also, I remember when the "conditioning" began in earnest, to prepare the young women for marrying into the families of older men. I saw young women, or I should say girls, being happy and carefree one day, then suddenly become sad and miserable, or just disappear, the next. now I'm well aware that you will accuse me of not telling the truth, but Ill wager that there will be many, who were there at the same time I was, and after, who will agree with me. my argument is not with anyone who enters into one of these relationships of there own free will. my argument is against coercion and deception on the part of people who should be protecting these kids, rather than conning them into something so destructive. now "love" before you launch an "assault of shock and awe", please refer to that part of you, which I know you have, that wants you to be honest. please know that I mean no offense, but please,consider that perhaps you aren't thinking hard enough. submitted with all due respect.
On Cnn.com, their Video report said that the call for help came in on the 911 center.
WHY DO THEY NOT POST THE CALL ON THEIR SITE SO THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT THE CALL WAS MADE FROM THE YFZ RANCH ???
THERE IS A LOT OF 911 CALLS THAT ARE REPORTED ON THE NEWS COVERING VARIOUS TOPICS... AND THEY SEEM TO ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED BY THE 911 TRANSCRIPT AND ACTUAL VOICE RECORDING.
WHY NOT SHOW THE 911 TRANSCRIPT FOR THIS CALL ??
BECAUSE IN MY OPINION IT WAS FABRICATED.. OTHERWISE PRODUCE THE PROOF !!
Duff, I too grew up in that era, I was fortunate to be in a place where I knew and was taught that a lot of things weren't right, but that in order to correct them would cause a huge rift, of course when it was corrected it did cause a huge one, many many men where here because of immoral desires. To catagorize us all, or all the men as having those desires and thoughts is not only wrong, but erroneous in it's assumption first. Again, I don't blame you, if you were in a situation where you felt better out then I'm grateful you are out. The problem I have is you trying to tell me what I was thinking when I was 16, and many many other girls around me who wanted to be placed by the One man, and prepared their hearts for that placement. I never could imagine such happiness. I've never been sorry, so who are you to tell me what we all think? What we all feel. I'm sorry for your bad experience, but we didn't all have them. That is all I have to say.
You certainly could have found happiness, but there is certainly a great chance that you wouldn't have been happy with the choice made for you. I think that's what he is saying.
There is mounting evidence that the call did not come from inside YFZ, there has been many prank calls in CC/Hildale, they had ADPS and Mohave County Sherrifs @ Lorin D. Fischers house and subjected all his children to interviews, his house to complete and through search all because of a phone call they got. Can you believe that? Lorin D abusing anyone? Anyone with half a brain know's what's going on, I wouldn't be suprised that Flora Mae or someone else with a vendetta made that call, and just gloating over all the fuss. It's wrong in it's entirety in the first place, but to not follow up and make sure they knew where the call came from is sick and wrong, they can do that in this day and age. I wouldn't be suprised to see is a planted call from CPS or some malcontent. Texas is going to have a lot of explaining to do, as well as Mohave County etc. etc.
After reading David Thobideau's book about Waco, I can see the sense in the judge ordering the removal of children and women from the ranch before the SWAT team did their job. There is an article on the Tribune's website quoting CPS's Meisner as acknowledging that the kids haven't had (much) exposure to the outside world. Hopefully that awareness translates into careful and culturally-considerate treatment. It would be a shame if one form of oppression and abuse was simply replaced by more powerful forms of oppression and abuse originating from a different source, i.e. the gov't instead of the church. The focus needs to be on addressing actual cases of sex with minors; the authorities need to be careful to not make it an agenda of cultural genocide.
One thing that is especially incriminating is that, according to some online newsarticles, there are teenage girls that are currently pregnant in the group removed from the ranch. Even though the 16 year old who sparked this raid hasn't been found so far, the other pregnant teenagers are proof that underage marriage is still going on.
The FLDS could have prevented this raid and future prosecutions by not marrying girls under the age of 18. The blogger who mentioned the parents' role(s) in the underage marriages makes an astute observation. At some point it seems reasonable that parents will be prosecuted for endangerment of a child when they allow and/or support the marriage of their under-age daughter. Like others, I think too much is being made of who owns the buses that were used to transport the children and women.
U. Duff and Love, I think you are both accurate; you are each telling a piece of the story, of the process. U. Duff, the coercion you speak of is real. Love, the choice you speak of is also real. Love's thoughts about an older man vs a younger man are well known arguments in favor of young girls marrying older men. It is an argument that formed many years back; I remember hearing it from my grandmother. In my own life, I took ownership of my life by owning the events, by claiming choice because I could then feel empowered to make changes and to progress. Still, I opened myself to change, and my life is very different than when I first got married. Now I look back and recognize that, while I made choices, those choices were made in a certain environment, in a certain mindset. Part of that environment included a culture that favored young girls marrying older men. While the choice was mine, and it was the best choice at the time, the culture was not my creation; it was something I was born into. As I developed as a person, I found myself wanting something very different than what was inside the group. The more I stepped outside that culture, the less my marriage to someone much older than me made sense. There is a difference between making a choice from a limited number of church-approved options and making a choice from the unlimited supply of options that exist here on earth. The same person may make two different choices depending on the options that are in front of them. I cannot, nor do I try to, claim that I did not have choice in my marriage. However, I do have the right and responsibility to do the best thing for my own life. When my options expanded, my choices changed. At the same time, my earlier choices carry consequences, sometimes painful consequences. Because of this, there are days I wish I had known all the options before I made the choice I did.
I agree that the transcript of the 911 call should be made public, but not until the girl is found (assuming the call was real).
If the call was real, if the transcript exists, and if the state is doing their job as they should, they shouldn't divulge the identity of the 16 year old until she is at least found and safe. Even if her name was not on the recording that would be posted, her voice alone could identify her to the people who know her. On second thought, if the call was real, obviously the people around her know who she is because she isn't at YFZ Ranch. Then again, if she is real, and the leaders at YFZ had the foresight and prudence to remove her, why didn't they remove all the pregnant teens (assuming that the reports of other pregnant teens are accurate)?
Hmmm, it will take some time for all the chips to fall. Eventually, the state will have to justify the raid. It is important that we keep watching, keep asking questions and demand accountability. If the raid was staged on a hunch, it could be a violation of civil liberties and individual privacy.
Hey uncaduff you must not know many 16 year old girls usualy they don't listen. at least these parents know how to keep there teenagers from getting pregnant before they are married.
4/05/2008 10:52 PM
Sorry marriedyoung, but 16, married and pregnant or 16 single and pregnant...still means 16 and pregnant.
I don't care what anyone's religious views are. Quite frankly, I don't even care about polygamy - amongst consenting adults. But that's just it, 16 isn't an adult.
And 16, growing up on a commune being fed religious doctrine (good, or bad), means 16 and brainwashed (good, or bad) and no real life experience to use as a basis for making such an important decision as Marriage.
The way I felt when I was in my teens was that I wanted to be married to an older man because He was more stable and experienced , I knew that I would be taken care of, feed, clothed, etc...
I had seen three of my older sisters married off to young single men, they being the first wife, and life was hard for them. Struggling to make ends meet, clothe their children, whereas in a larger household there is more people to help out with the expenses and thus the children never went without a meal, clean clothes ect.
It is not as BAD as some people's imaginations tend to think.
I admit that there are some Men who need to be more patient and long suffering when it comes to challenges in the home, or dealing with others.
BUT NOT ALL THE MEN are like this, My Husband is very patient, I feel at times that He is maybe to patient with the children at times So please do not throw them all in the same pot!!
Uncaduff, you're a bitter old man that lives for these blogs. You say you've moved on and are now LDS but I think otherwise.
Whenever the blog gets slow it's YOU who tries to stimulate talk. You feel you've been treated poorly during your time in C.C. Guys like Sam Barlow were probably out to get you. But instead of letting go and moving on, you insist on grinding your axe.
You've made your little haven out there in Fredonia. You wanted to move out of C.C. but didn't want to move to far away either.
Bistlines get their feelings hurt so easily, and they never forget. They always love to play the poor picked on role. I'm sure you have your circles where you get together and salve eachother's wounds and badmouth all the Barlow boys and so on and so on.
All of this is fine by me. I just wanted to call a spade a spade.
A lot of the things you say on this board are half truths. No, I'm not FLDS, I'm not LDS, I'm not a polygamist. I just know your type.
Texas Child Protective Services are saying it was a referral, not a 911 call. Also, they are saying there was more than one phone call from the victim.
A Referral? You got to be kidding me? They went in there with all this on a referral? I sense some serious undertones here, I'm betting that it's got more to do with the case against Warren than is imagined. Arizona and Utah's case against Warren is so weak that they needed records etc to bolster it, they had a hunch that those records were in the temple, and they fabricated a story to get in there and look for them. I'll bet you money this is more the case than any of the malarky were hearing from the Media.
The problem I have is you trying to tell me what I was thinking when I was 16, .............. so who are you to tell me what we all think? What we all feel.
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anon 10:13 you should enlighten me, wherein I inferred I "new what you were thinking." I gave an opinion based on personal experience. and also, you seem to have made your own assessment concerning immoral intentions. I only related an experience, and I'm not sure what part of it caused you to make that inference. I'm well aware that the majority of the men that I new there, were no more immoral than men in general. I know that most of them honestly believed in what they were doing. It wasn't immorality so much as hypocrisy and seemingly deliberate deceit, in the highest positions of leadership, that induced me to seek the truth,for the truths sake. it was then my "bad experience" began.
This is wrong on so many levels. I am not a religious man but I know that the taking of children from their parents is WRONG and illegal unless they have solid evidence. THEY DON'T OR WE WOULD HAVE HEARD ABOUT IT.
Wrong on so many levels? CPS agents need to protect children. To do that they need to investigate the matter fully which requires interviewing children to ascertain potential threats. This can not be accomplished effectively without removing them from their home environment. If the situation is not volatile they will be returned to their homes. The polygamous parents involved know the risks associated with underage marriages, both participating in them and subjecting their own daughters into these inappropriate relationships. The precedent set by previous sexual abuse cases involving these communities warrants extreme caution and extensive investigation of each and every potential violation relationship. Their civil rights as a religious organization, as parents, and as individuals are always upheld until crimes are potentially committed. At which time the state steps in and needs to make assessments. It's called probably cause and the state, in this instance had every right to do what they did.
Yes Scott, as soon as there is something you do that they don't like then they will have every right to waltz into your life turn it upside down, and waltz out, leaving you to pick up the pieces and exclaim "What the Hell" Last I checked this was the United States of America, I know it's core values are down the drain, but this is a little much, number one thing, they need to prove their was a real call, do you know there was a real call for help Scott? If you do, I'd sure like you to share it with us. I'm not FLDS, I'm not even LDS but I'm a true blooded American, and what is going on here makes my blood boil. Our sovereignty is going down the drain from Bush all the way down, I guess I shouldn't be suprised this coming from his home state. I like another here, wonder what I can do. It is wrong whether your LDS, Athiest, Baptist, or whatchmacallit ist.
NO, You are wrong! As soon as they think you've broken the law they start waltzing. The waltz typically doesn't start until they either suspect or know you've broken a law.
Do you know a call was not made? You question circumstances you are an insider on. For all you know there was a call made. For all you know there were multiple calls made. You question what you don't understand. In time you and I will be privied to the motives behind the raid on the compound. Until then, you can speculate the worst and cry that rights are being trampled based on what the media has let you know.
What I do know is this. There is a history of abuse within this community. That merits investigation of any and all claim of abuse. If this all turns up nothing, so be it. The innocent have nothing to fear. When children are being abused, the state has to take drastic measures to insure the child's wellbeing. These measures required the rounding up of the children in question to ascertain validity to the claims.
What's so hard to understand about that? Are you dense?
The original call was probably deceptive and aimed at YFZ by a disgruntled apostate. This may have been arranged by someone outside in Idaho or Canada. I am sure the call is being traced to it's actual origin.
If there is abuse among the FLDS people it should be dealt with. However I'm sure that everyone among them is not of that nature. Look at the abuse the Catholic people have had to endure. Perhaps one would think the many millions of their people should be punished, or at least that seems to be the way some here are judging. I have heard of many cases of abuse, which I hope does not continue but for goodness sake don't punish all the associates of the abusers. Get the wrong doer and leave the others alone. My heart aches for the children who may be separated from loving parents and family. How desperate they must feel--both parents and children. Think of your own children and how you would feel if they were taken from you! Or how that action would destroy them. They would never trust anyone again. Never! Never! --not completly.
What part of GAG ORDER do you people crying foul not follow? The authorities are under orders not to talk about the case, so you're not going to be hearing much in the media.
Further, the SLTrib is reporting that there is a birth certificate tying the 15 year old to Barlow. If you don't think it's child rape for a 50 year old to be impregnating a 15 year old, you're just as sick.
Whether we agree with authorities or not, it is evident there is such a thing as Divine Justice. These people attempted to break up my family behind my back, but we saw our way through it and they didn't succeed. I didn't experience half what Carolyn did. I know men who came home to find their family gone. Why? Simply because I didn't believe Warren to be a prophet and stated so openly--that gave them the right to try to destroy my family based on religion alone. So, what goes around comes around.
I hope this opens the door up for some trapped men to round up their family and get the **** out of there. As it was, I doubt any man stood a chance of rounding up his children. He might get one or two rounded up at YFZ, but word would get around he was apostatizing, and he would never succeed in getting all his children.
Should we remove all catholic children from their homes, after all the child abuse has been documented. Should we storm all catholic churches and remove families from their homes. What about the Baptist? After Waco maybe we should check into the teachings of all Baptist churches and search them. Come on people you want the FLDS to follow the Laws of the Land, then Law Enforcement should as well.
I highly recommend the book ESCAPE by Carolyn Jessop. She was married away on a moments notice and lived in the community for her entire childhood and had eight children there. She escaped and wrote a book about what all went on in that community.
This is a sad situation. Far worse than any one of us can imagine. Yes, the children are being married against their consent. However, they don't fight it because they believe that they will be damned to hell.
It is unfortunate that the government has let this go on as long as it has. These women have NO rights. NONE. If the husband wants a three ring circus in the delivery room, then the woman DELIVERING the child has no say in it. This is about so much more than abuse. They are brainwashed into thinking that they don't have rights!
"How can you say these are consenting adults when they have no education, no exposure to the outside world, and polygamy is the only life these women have ever known?" — Carolyn Jessop
She sums it up! We all need to have these young girls and children on our minds. They need our support and love in this time.
I cannot find my post so I assume that it has been removed. Funny it was clean with no insults. Of course if you have a blog that is monitored not for hate or language but for content that is not what the monitor wants to hear then you will not have free press. Its seems that the monitor wants a 3 to 1 for the raid comments. He or She has left some that are offensive but are in favor of the raid. what a shame that the truth will not be allow to come out. I am sure this will not be posted either. I will simply start my own site, I have the time and the money to complete. I will be heard.
Rape is Rape is Rape. Yes it is wrong. Yes it should be prosecuted. Yes it should be investigated. However, overzealous people in positions of power can cause more damage in the process of addressing existing crimes. There is no amount of rape that justifies the government gasing innocent women and children as happened in Waco. To say, after the fact, "Well, David Koresh raped some girls," in no way justifies hurting innocent people when there were better ways to handle the situation (Koresh could have been picked up alone at any time). Simply based on what happened in Waco, it is important that people question and do everything they can to check the power and zeal of law enforcement, so they don't get out of hand. Even the enforcers need to play by the rule book. I am not saying they shouldn't enforce; however, they should not expect to justify their crimes by citing someone elses crimes. I am not even saying that in this situation law enforcement has behaved innappropriately, but it is not over yet and all the information is not released. All the information may never be released.
Here is what we do know: more than 200 women & children removed from the ranch (according to the SLT).
What we don't know: Why they were removed and when they will be returned.
Before we judge the State or the FLDS, lets wait and see why they took the children and when they will be returned. The State is dealing with a touchy and volatile subject here, and I’m sure they are the last ones who want to make the situation worse than it already is.
It is good to hear that those at the ranch are "cooperating" with the authorities. Even if all those removed are brought back quickly, my fear is that this is only going to drive my friends and family in the FLDS even more underground regardless of whether or not abuses and abusers are found and brought to justice. The more underground and secretive they become, the easier it is for those who would do wrong and abuse others to get away with abuse, and the harder it becomes for their victims to get help. It is possible that there are many victims who don't even realize that they are victims at the ranch, but force as a means to "save" someone has never worked in the long run.
For those who are saying less than kind things about the FLDS men....It is easy to judge a whole group by the actions of a few, but to say all the FLDS men are rapists and child abusers when you don't know all the men, just the actions of a few, is nothing less than jumping to erroneous conclusions.
Most of the FLDS men are loving, hard working, and honest individuals who love their families and do all they can for them. In my opinion, their biggest fault is that they have allowed their loyalty to a man become stronger than their integrity. I dare say even most of the men who have married underage girls or allowed their underage daughters to be married did so out of loyalty to the “prophet,” not because they are a group of pedophiles who lust after young women. Branding them as something they are not will only make them mistrust you even more, when a genuine and understanding person is what is really needed to help them out of a bad situation. I think the sheriff down there has been wise in his way of dealing with those on the ranch.
I hope that in some way, the FLDS men will decide that the consequence for underage marriage, be it taking a wife or giving an underage daughter, is not worth it. I have yet to find any scripture that says underage girls are more pure or worthy of Celestial marriage than those of age (but they are more controllable, and driving them underground increases the control of the leaders). I just hope the trauma to some in getting to that point is less than the problem (underage marriage)itself.
Nothing good is ever going to be accomplished when both sides view the other as evil, misguided and wrong.
Ok,ok where is the evidence in this case, where is the probable cause?? They "said" that someone had called but they really have no idea if its even true, if in fact someone actually did call. This is an in justice to these people!! I hope they sue over this!! I cant say that these people are perfect but I KNOW that they love their kids and that they dont "Abuse" them. In fact the kids are watched constantly, they have either a mom or an older girl watching ALL the time. Please wake up! Dont just listen to Carolyn Jessop, she might have had a tough time being married to Merril but that doesnt mean that this is the way all men are in this group.
There is a tall fence all the way around the property.? Is that right? For that reason alone I think Texas did what they had to. I don't like it but the fact is, it's a closed society and children could very easily be abused and who would know? How would they get help? And, aren't those women they took most likely mothers of the children? I may be naive but I really doubt the police would take nursing babies too far away from their mothers. I agree with Scott Deist
They have no guns or weapons, and they are cooperating well with authorities...this doesn't sound like criminals to me. The pictures that I have seen show some bright and healthy children, nothing indicating abuse in any way.
Also, we need to keep the facts straight here. This doesn't smell like Waco at all. This isn't one house with 50 people. This is 150 acres or something like that of land. An entire community that lives a certain way and gets by a certain way. They aren't known to have stockpiles of weapons either. They are a peaceful people. The only issue with the FLDS is child brides and not a single person can vouch for the number of child brides or how rampant it is in the community but the fact is Texas law gives the women the right to consent or not at AGE 16. So if a man who is 50 is married ot a 16 year old and has a baby, it's completely legal in the eyes of the law, so don't take issue with these people and their doctrine in that case, that is up to Texas law.
Also, this is not a "cult" in the respect that the FLDS is the original scripture. The cult would be the LDS or modern mormons as they altered their belief as to not have issues with federal law. The religion itself in it's original incarnation is being followed by these people.
The only people who should be in any trouble whatsoever are the adults in the community who are forcing their children who are under the age of 16 to have sex with adult men. That's it and I think it's ridiculous for them to remove every single child form the home until they find out.
If I call CPS right now because I saw my neighbor punch his kid across the face or do drugs with his underage kid, I don't think they are taking all kids who live in the subdivsion or city into custody to see how many children are doing drugs with or without their parents consent because it doesn't matter it's illegal either way. They are flat out discriminating against this community.
Now if the birth certificate for this case is known; I would think with todays technology the state's records would be able to flag births to underage mothers. If this is the case they should know who they are looking for. I am sure they already know more about who is who in that group than most of us.
Apparently they are holding court to decide if the children should be taken from the homes. What? They already took them, shouldn't they have done their investigation with the children staying in their house and then decide about removal if there was evidence to do so later? This is all being done backwards and is an injustice. Nice democracy we live in when the government can invade a community and take every child they find out of their home because of one "alleged" call.
Seriously. If my niece or daughter or someone calls the cops and says I raped them. Are they going to evacuate my entire subdivision or the entier town and place them elsewhere while they see what they can dig up?
Here is the deal. There is a line is this country between religious rights and legal ones. Leaving FLDS, look at Christian Scientists. This religion preaches that they cannot seek medical treatment in most cases because it goes against God's will. The courts have given permission to medical practitioners to go against the parent's religious and personal wishes and treat the child. The reason is that a child is not able to make a rational decision. The requirement to autonomy is liberty is agency. Liberty is an absence of external restrictions, and agency is the ability to make rational decisions. In the medical world, a person's agency (and therefore autonomy) is respected in degree starting about 13 years old (with major decision making authority coming later). A 17 year old Christian scientist would be allowed to forgo treatment even if it brought on death, a 14 year old would not.
Now I am not a FLDS (I am not even Christian), but I see no reason why consenting adults should not be allowed to live where they want, with who they want, and sleep with as many as they want. But, like the Christian Scientists, I do not believe they have a right to place children at risk (even their own). If there are FLDS (and I am sure there are many) who want to have multiple partners, I will support that right. But for anyone to question the authority of society to pull out 12 year old pregnant girls simply does not understand the Bill of Rights or what the principles of this country are founded on. But, you are more than welcome to sign up for one of my courses on Ethical Theory and I would be happy to teach it to you.
BTW, why do people refer to the FLDS as the fundamentalists when it was the LDS who took it upon themselves to split from the original doctrine of their church? It seems closer to the truth to call the FLDS the LDS, and call LDS the reformists doesn't it? Just a thought...
The above post lacks basic common sense, as do many posts int his thread.
Quickly the public sides against the agency attempting to protect children and their well being. The agency looking out for people who are unable to stand up for their own rights because they are too young to do it. Shame on you.
Not all heads of households in the FLDS faith are pedophiles but court records show abnormal high rates of sexual and physical abuse. Facts are facts- deal with it. In Texas sex between a 16 year old and a 50 year old is illegal and classified as rape. It is a crime. Facts are facts. The Catholic Church has had a run of sexual-based crimes against youth and are now the targets or lawsuits, intense investigation and everyone quickly jumping to the defense of innocent kids. The FLDS church is no different. It's one thing to be pure and unblemished and crying foul when things appear to being carried away. Who has compassion when the guilty emit the same cry? Few.
The government suspected crimes were being committed. The government in question acted in an appropriate manner to assess the situation and find out the facts. It is called probably cause and they don't need COLD HARD facts to begin gathering information to decide if a crime(s) was being committed. People who suspect a rival faction has set this community up for the fall are ludicrous. Do you really think the police to fielded the alleged phone call can't trace the call back it its origin within the compound? Duh. If they can persuade the girl to step forward and tell all, it will be surprising to me. She's going against 16 years of indoctrination. Heaven forbid she can't formulate enough of a story to warrant being relocated. She'll have earned herself the title of the village idiot and be in turmoil for decades.
I am sure MULTIPLE criminal accounts will be handed down when this entire raid is over and done with. Mark my words.
Warren Jeffs , when captured after fleeing the law, was as cool as a cat. He cooperated and in the end was found guilty. The guilty don't always go down kicking and screaming. Oftentimes- they place it cool and cross their fingers things blow over. YFZ members are playing it cool. Few YFZ heads of households are not guilty of polygamy so they're breaking the law. If you break the law you will suffer the consequences.
Once again the FLDS are in the spotlight and many people that are not aquainted with thier lifestyle and customs are being educated about it. Not becuase they are actively seeking for the information but because it is now being fed to them by the media. There are many shocked people that sympathize with the children and mothers of these families. This is all well and to be expected. There are many explanations for the alleged activities of law enforcement. The truth is we do not know what the reasons are becuase of a gag order placed on those with the info. The secretive activities of those at YFZ have had the effect of suspicion and apprehension in the authorities as well as many people around the country. As has been posted here many times, I too believe most of the children will be found to be in good hands with their parents. If there are truly abuses they need to be dealt with and really most of the FLDS will support law enforcement in prosecuting once the guilt is proven. If the officials allow those who have left the FLDS to 'help' those removed from the YFZ it will only be a further convincing factor in the FLDS eyes that the government is just persecuting them. The more these people are dragged about the stronger will be thier convictions. You cannot convince them by force. These people have allowed themselves to be convinced that thier lifestyle and actions will take them to heaven. They believe the rest of the world is out to destroy them specifically. Actions such as this only contribute to those beleifs. If someone is in error they will only give up the error when they choose to see it for what it is. It is up to each individual to do so. This issue will appear everytime two people of different beliefs come together.
The issue here should be abuse of the children. The young illegal marriages need to stop. Thier own prophet once (1998) told them to stop them and those in leadership did not listen to him. Childbrides was never a tenet of the FLDS faith up to 8 years ago. I am not denying it happened as history will tell otherwise but it was not the norm. Of 15+ sisters/stepsisters all but one are married (some plural) and of those there were two married before 17. They were both married to boys within two years of their age.
I'm a 15 year old girl from El Dorado that has already had a baby. The father goes to the 1st Baptist Church. Therefore could the authorities pick up all the children from its church families, hold them for days, etc., while searching for me. Also, the church itself should be stormed in case I'm behind the baptismal fount.
That depends. Were you impregnated by an adult with the knowledge, encouragement, and protection of the baptist leadership? If so, is this a policy trend (i.e. part of the doctrine) or an isolated incident?
If you said yes to the first question, and that this was done (and is done to others) as part of the church doctrine, then yes, we could go into the baptist church.
There is something called association without causation (it is a formal fallacy). Doing something illegal, and simply being associated with something is much different than being a part of something that is causal. It sounds to me that it is the latest prophet FLDS started proclaiming that God endorsed pedophilia. I wouldn't say that FLDS is this, but there is no question that the latest prophet did cause this.
Why are you all so worried about yourselves and your opinions? There are over 100 children here who have just been separated from their lives -- even if those lives were horrible and perverse, they were familiar -- and are now being thrust into the world's spotlight. This discussion should be about them. What can we do for these kids, and these women (young wives and mothers, their mothers, and their mothers' mothers)to help with what they are going through?
Really. Is there anything practical that the average citizen could do here to help? Do the families need clothes? Household goods for relocation? Can we make donations?
We are all so lucky to not have our lives turned upside down like this (even if it is for their good). It's a disaster at the level of Katrina -- think of how terrified you would be if you were one of these children, or one of the mothers. Let's stop the in-fighting and get behind our "friends" and help them in their time of need. This is who deserves our energy and attention.
Can anyone tell me what is the latest? I heard an elderly man went to the hospital with a stoke? I also want to know what the US Citizens are going to do about this travesty, I can't believe your going to just sit there and watch are you? England has come along way since the 1700's can it be that all that you fought for in gaining your statehood, you will now just sit and let die? Are there some there that awake?
muscogeean - if your baptist church has a vivid history of sexual and physical abuse and the members are living in a manner that breaks the law (polygamy) then sure. They need to do what's necessary to make sure you're and your peers are safe. If they are harboring criminals who have warrants and who's prophet/leader refused to follow court mandates and flee from the law.... sure. If your community, in addition to the previous items of interest, shelters they're children from child protective services so as to inhibit alleged investigations- then yes- bring in the bulldozers.
Come on.. this is not a bunch of law abiding citizens who encourage it's members to follow the laws of the land. These are people who purposely break the law by living in polygamous relationships many marrying children and thumb their noses at the government. Now when the local government steps over the line they've set they call foul and want America to rally behind their Constitutional rights.
I say stand up and take it on the chin. These polygamists have created the fiasco they're now complaining about. They take a grenade and pull the pin and wonder why there is an explosion.
401 children. I hope that the Texas officials are prepared to deal with this.As much as I oppose Warren,and current Flds practices,I can't help but feel this was overkill.
The high-handed action of removing 401 children on the basis of one alleged telephone call is absolutely an indication of the way our society is going. I cannot believe that all 401 children immediately became at risk and needed to be removed from their parents, especially their mothers. This should have been handled in a much more controlled manner with a dialog with the people there--there is no indication they made ANY ATTEMPT whatsoever to do that. Investigating each one at a time is the way to go--now Texas can pay to take care of 401 children, 401 lawyers(one for each child) 401 guardian at litems(one for each child), not to mention the expected lawsuits from parents and others--what a bonus for a ambulance-chasing attorneys. In addition they can handle the costs for psychiatric and psycological evaluations for each and every one. In addition they pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. for 401 children and their parents. I cannot be convinced that those children were in danger of immediate harm, especially those under 12 years of age--leave them alone, at least for now. Investigate the obvious cases and do it in a controlled and structured manner. What a fiasco!
These people have been commiting incest with little girls who are barely evern teenagers. I really hope the police get these girls away from all tose sick pedifiles!
How much evidence do you have that all and every parent in the place was committing incest, that every man was raping 15 year olds? If you have all that evidence than I'll be glad to listen your well rounded fifth grade spelling errors and try to assimilate your most profound points.
Not every parent has to be committing a crime. Any child around any perpetrator of this sort should be removed from this situation. Obviously the FLDS aren't going to do a damn thing about it so the state has to.
And as to people not believing this was done on a referral. SO WHAT. These people came to this state on a lie, saying the land was to be a hunting retreat, who cares if this raid was carried out on a lie?
(I'm not religious nor moral, so I don't want to hear 'two wrongs don't make a right)
Fax- Most children are not separated from their mothers in this ordeal as the media has told you. Many mothers/wifes, even though they've been cleared to leave, have stayed to help with the children. You people act as through they've been herded up and cast out into the cruel sinful world to die. give me a break. They're being cared for fine until the decisions have been made as to their future.
I am sure the vast majority of them will be returned to their families with no long-term damage done. I'm sure any mother/wife who yearns for her children can go out and comfort them wherever they are.
First they tried to cry about their constitutional rights. Now they've switched gears and whine and cry about the poor children. What's the next tactic for polygamy supporters to gain the publics support? Here's a clue- QUIT BREAKING THE LAW BY MARRYING UNDERAGE GIRLS OFF TO OLD MEN.
Look at Hamish people. Extreme sheltered life also but they don't break the law purposely and thus don't have police storming their communities. Cause..... and then effect. Quite simple.
I have a question-I haven't seen it mentioned [or missed it]. Are ALL marriages, births and deaths registered with the various city, county and/or state agencies where the FLDS communities live? Or are they 'private papers' kept only by church officials? Or neither? It seems that with all the moving around [voluntarilly or otherwise]people could just fall thru the cracks and no one would even know if they were alive or dead. --MC--
Go ahead, look into the teachings of the Baptist churches and search them. I'm Baptist and by all means if there's something going on that needs the attention of the law bring in the troops and search warrents. Can the FLDS on the YFZ Ranch say the same?
Also people there is no such thing as true freedom. True freedom would cause chaos in the world. We do need laws. We have always been free to believe in whatever and whoever. I don't think it's about religion at all. The actions of some of the FLDS members are what's attracting the attention of the state. If there is a cry for help from within the ranch then the police have to investigate. Why argue that? It's nice to know that the police are doing there jobs and if people need help they're getting it. If the FLDS on the ranch have nothing to hide then why make this harder than it already is. I say step aside and let the search go on which they seem to be doing. If nothing is found to be unlawful then the FLDS members can get back to their normal lives all the faster. This has to be hard on the FLDS families but if the police have reason to believe and they can actually go in and find accusers who are hurting the innocent then job well done. I hope the families understand that this is not to tear apart a religion or families, it's to protect the innocent which I would hope people would be thankful for.
A hint for all you FLDS bloggers out there: If you are going to renounce your religion in your blog entry, it would be much more believable if you would drop words like "apostate" and use spell check.
A blog is just that, a place for opinions and discussion about whoever, whenever and whatever so maybe you're the one who needs to go elsewhere. I've always found it funny when someone says we should be doing this or that to help out others when they're not doing it themselves and I assume you're not or you would have given us some details about what you're involved in doing. Why don't you let us know what ideas you have and how you're going to deliver them and we'll decide if it's something we want to contribute to. Easier said than done, right? But I commend you if you do follow through.
I've read through all of the comments and one of the things that keeps being rehashed is how wrong it is for CPS to pull children from their parents during the investigation - I don't know about TX, but here in FL it's standard that if there is a threat to the child(ren) that is deemed to be credible and eminent they remove the children immediately. Perhaps they are worried that if the children aren't removed some of them will disappear to other compounds?
Not all the children at the ranch have their mother there. My own brother had to send a wife to CC, but her child stayed at the ranch. Something else fishy is going on. Why the imbalance in male/female ratio among the children? It is either (1) Boys are sent away from their parents and raised elsewhere, such as with presently unworthy members in CC, or (2) the females are taken from unworthy families in CC and moved to YFZ, or (3) both.
They pulled the children away from their parents so the kids could talk openly if they wished about abuse and other things. A child isn't going to talk in front of a parent. Use some sense! I hope that the kids are returned if no abuse is found after the hearing in 14 days. I think they need to leave all the kids together and not start putting them in foster care until it is proven their is abuse for that child. These children know nothing of the outside world and need to be able to keep their customary dress and religion. No public school as this is not something they would know about. We outsiders need to be very diligent in letting the kids lead as normal of life that they know of as possible. We are the ones that need to learn their culture and try to allow them to keep it. We outsiders need to understand that these American children know nothing of the outside world and are very afraid of us. It would be similar of the Taliban and their rule for these kids. Go slow and treat the children and woman with respect. How they are treated is what will remain with these people for the rest of their life.
MC - others may know better then I, but from my reading you're correct in stating that some people simply fall through the cracks, especially when it comes to births. Some of the autobiography's I've read refer to the fact that some of the children don't have birth certificates, and obviously plural marriages don't have marriage certificates.
My mother grew up on an Indian reservation in OK, through the time I was born (70s) it wasn't uncommon for someone not to have a birth certificate, don't know about the last 3 decades though.
4/06/2008 1:37 PM hey anonymous sourpuss,you really don't know Uncle Duff or the Bistlines. granted, we like to do a little "recreational bitchin" as uncle fizz likes to call it, but we got better things than your Barlows to have fun "bitchin" about. and what's wrong with stirrin up the blog when things get slow. sheesh! whatta Grump.
I think your the one "obsessed with Barlows." cause what I said was "your Barlows", not you Barlows. I don't think you know anything about "us" that your squirrelly little plig buddies didn't tell ya. :} sides that we got nothing against Barlows in general.
You do realize the whole world is now watching whats going on with FLDS people so your now officallly speaking for your kind even if you dont want to. What you say is now is how the world will see your people for the next 50 years.
** Side bar -Barlows and Bistlines??? Sounds like the Hatfields and McCoys right down to the marryin'cousins and the like
No but really please elaborate .I dont know the history and would like to learn what your beef is with each other or lack of beef is if that is the case.
Would if the FLDS got a call from someone in a neighboring town that they needed to be rescued because they were pregnant and was'nt married,so the FLDS went into the neighboring town and gathered up all the children and women and took them to the ranch and got custody of the children because their society was teaching immorality on the TV and the Radio and Music. God is watching get ready. He is silent notes taking.
I don't understand why people think this is over kill on the State's side. If one girl, any girl, called to claim abuse and no one would do anything in her community to help her, then why wouldn't the state of Texas take ALL the children to make sure that they are not in harms way like the caller? The state of Texas doesn't do this just for fun. Looking at the FACTS - Warren in jail for assisting in child rape and marrying underage girls...why WOULDN'T the state make sure ALL children are safe after receiving a call by some young girl that professes to be a child bride that is beaten? If one is in harms way and nothing is being done by anyone around her, then why would the state think that any other children are safe? The Department Of Children and family services has an obligation to make sure the children are safe. If they are, the state will return them sooner than later. But it is their absolute obligation to make sure that no children are being harmed. It's not persecution toward the FLDS..stop having child brides..the FACTS show this is going on. It is not rumor. THESE ARE FACTS! I would much rather have my child taken from me if someone in my family said that another child was abused and no one was doing anything to stop the abuse or report it.
Get over yourselves with the "oh we're being persecuted" line. Children all over are taken due to abuse for the children's best interests. Hush hush doesn't work anymore like back in the day when no one would talk about it.
GO STATE OF TEXAS! Do the job you are supposed to and make sure children are safe.
Man, you people need to do some research. This is a huge problem. These "men" defraud the government and raise their children with our tax dollars. Don't some of wonder how many of these women are collecting welfare? How do you think theses "families" amass their fortunes? How do they build these communities? With child labor and government welfare. The titillating sexual details are just part of the abuse. Young boys are forced into labor without pay from very young ages. As they grow up and become threats to the polygamist lifestyle of the older patriarchs, they are forced out of the community. Hey, while the authorities are checking out the very real abuse, they should also audit all tax returns and welfare claims! You people who support this are just ignorant!
Holy Father, thou who dost see the hearts of all, unto thee I pray for those of the YFZ Ranch, and also for we who watch and participate, that we may not compound their troubles.
Holy Father, I pray that thou wilt be with the children in their distress, that thou wilt comfort them, that they will know that they are loved and that they will not take these things to their own hurt.
I pray that they shall have good and understanding guardians and counselors, and not people with their own social agenda. That they be allowed to stay together, at least in their family groups.
I pray that they will not become pawns in the hands of state regulators, but that they will be able to return to loving fathers and mothers where no wrong is found to have occured.
I pray for the people in positions of power and authority, that they may keep truth and justice on the top line, that they will be sensitive to the Faith of these souls, that they will not allow human fobiles to mar their judgements and investigations.
I pray that their methods shall be just the same as if these people were their own families.
I pray that the general public who observe but have not all the facts shall not condemn them simply because they are different and their is much inuendo.
I pray for the mothers, who must at this time be distraught, whose pains must be great, and I pray that they shall be able to learn whatever it is they need to learn at this time. That they find the balance between respect for their husbands and standing up when they think something is wrong. I thank them father, that they have the faith to live their religion, in a world where it is not cool to be different, yet I also pray that they shall use this situation for their growth. Surley young women need goodly men to guide and even lead them, and a goodly woman shall make a simple man much better. I pray that their sins be few, but that they shall repent where they need to.
I pray for the men and brethren, that the men shall through this shake up become more honorable men, and that the brethren shall look to their ways and uses of their positions and power. That if injustice or sins have been committed, that they shall be addressed ina a straightforward manner. While it is not for us to tell another culture what to do, their is that which is ideal, and then degrees of separation from it.
While there may be times that a younger sister can be joined to an older brother, it is not the norm, but the exception to the norm. I pray that this lesson be learned by these people.
I pray that they learn to feel the difference between a marriage confirmed by the spirit of God, and one made only of the mind of man,(and woman) and that ordinances cannot make a union more this way or that. I pray that sincere seekers of Godliness will desist from any union that is not confirmed of the spirit, and I pray that religions people everywhere will cease to confuse warm fuzzy feelings and emotions with thy spirit.
I pray for the brethren, that they might use this time to kneel in humble prayer, they they might humble themsleves before thee Oh God, and that they might continue to believe in thee, whom I know, that they shall through greater faith and humility realize thee the more, that those misconceptions of religiosity that are culturally ingrained in them be rooted out, that Truth will be their ideal, and not necesssarily tradition.
I know father, that they are an isolated people, that persecution and their upbringings have narrowed their understandings. I pray that they shall hold fast to the light they have, while they grow and obtain a broader view of thy work upon the earth, that they shall not cease from their walk of Faith, but that this shall increase their righteousness before thee.
I pray for the investigators and administrators and prosecutors, that they shall understand that this is cultural, that if we as judges are to condemn, we must take into account the state of mind and the beliefs of individuals we investigate. I pray that we shall supply more counsellors than condemnors.
But who is qualified to counsel these souls? Who shall repsect their walk in life, their faith, and then reach into their minds to point out where changes need to be made.
I pray for these people father, whom the world has hated, if not the present world, then at least in times past their forefathers who were hated, which caused them to turn inwards and reject all the world.
I thank them and thee for their faith, that they run not to the same worldliness and excess of degrading dress, music, eating, and entertainment, and that they seek to live as they believe thou Oh God would have them live, and I pray that these good things shall not cease among them, that their community shall continue in our world and that we all may be the better for these things.
I pray that their leaders and brethren shall repent or learn where ever they stand in need of the same, that they shall see that all men have need to repent when they ere, that we all need to eat grass for a time, that they shall rebuild their lives in greater light of truth, that their young men shall be strong and grow up as honest and hard workers, contributors, that they may learn to share their faith in the outside world.
I pray that their mothers, sisters and daughters shall grow in womanhood, grace and power, that their minds shall be quick of understanding, and that they may form a counsel of the sisterhood, to offer the sisters views to the brethren, especially on such things of importance as youthful marriages to much much older brethren, for it sounds as though this would provide much needed balance.
I thank thee father for these souls, for their lives, for their faith, efforts and hopes, for their sepratation from the ways of worldliness, for the world and its religions have become such monocultures of piety, yet the world continues down hill, thus our religions cannot know thee, and do not seek to build thy kingdom.
May we who seek thee find thee and so become at one with thee Oh Holy Father.
I pray these things Father, in the name of him whom we hold as our Lord, amongst Lords, even Jesus the Christ.
Bro B. I don't think it is right to be so one sided in a prayer. Anytime I pray, I pray that the right thing happen. Not that people realize this is cultural. If there is a wrong there is a wrong. If there is no wrong there is no wrong. If there is a right, there is a right. If there is no right, there is no right. I pray that justice be had against any injustice. Both those separated from family and justice for those who committed any crime if there were any. I don't think wishing for what you believe is what prayer is for. Prayer is for asking that God's will be done whether it is what you believe or not.
I'm sure lessons will be learned on both sides of this issue. The first legal hearing on this case was today. Everyone is guilty of jumping to conclusions. Sometimes is best to put of a decision one way or another as long as possible. It gives you plenty of time to hear both sides of an argument and come to a logical conclusion when facts are known.
Everyone has biased opinions, including me. Growing up in TX I'm pretty hardcore protestant and I'll be the first to admit I don't like these people or what I think they stand for. However in this case I have no idea. Bias in favor of these people must be looked at carefully as well.
Remember 1,000 people can see this situation in 1,000 different ways.
hat do I do if I want to donate a professional service? We are currently not accepting offers for professional services. However, if you would like to provide your contact information you may contact the community engagement staff at: communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us. What if I want to volunteer? If you are interested in volunteering, you may contact the community engagement staff at communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us. Please be specific in your e-mail regarding how you are willing to help. We will respond regarding how to proceed. What if I want to donate a household item, toys, etc.? We are still assessing their needs and though we do not need donations at this time, we are keeping a list of offers for when the need arises. If you would like to add your name to the list, please send your contact information and the item(s) you wish to donate to communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us. What if I want to be a foster/adoptive parent and I live in Texas? At this time we are not in need of foster or adoptive placements for the children removed in Eldorado. However, Texas is always in need of foster and adoptive families to assist with children who have endured abuse or neglect.
Please review the steps to become a foster or adoptive family in our “Get Started” section of our web site. There, you will find an overview of the foster/adopt program, the steps involved, and the requirements to become a foster or adoptive family. You may also read what others say about foster care and adoption at our “Success Stories.” What if I want to be a foster/adoptive parent and I do not live in Texas? At this time we are not in need of foster or adoptive placements for the children removed in Eldorado. The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services will contact child placing agencies in other states should foster placement outside of Texas become necessary. If you are a licensed foster parent living in another state and would like to have a Texas child placed with you, please contact the child placing agency with whom you are licensed.
Please note that if you are interested in a Texas child waiting for foster placement or adoption, and not currently licensed, we encourage you to get approved to foster/adopt within your state first. Please visit the web site for links to information regarding your state. I was once involved with FLDS or have some personal experience with religious sects. Do you need my help? Although there is not a current need for individuals with FLDS experience, we are accepting contact information for future use if needed. You may contact the community engagement staff at: communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us.
I pray that no girl will ever be forced to marry her stepdad, father, cousin or uncle.
I pray that no girl will ever be forced to have sex with a digusting man twice or triple her age.
I pray that children will get the education that is a right for all Americans. That each child will have the intelligence, confindence and independence to make their own decisions.
What is the problem with impregnating the women of biological age? Most historians say the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary at about age 12 - how could she be of conscious age. And many Historians claim one of Muhammed's wives was 9 years old! It is just cultural diveristy, that is all.
The problem is the laws and culture of the nation that the FLDS are living in. It has always been the policy of God's people throughout bible history and since to adhere to the laws of the country in which they dwell unless those laws interfere with the direct commands from God. Refer to Daniel, Three Hebrews, Abraham etc. The FLDS have no scriptural foundation for a commandment to marry girls underage, yet they insist upon doing it. They were told by warren's father who was the leader before warren that they were to comply with the law prohibiting marriages under 17 created by Utah in 1998-2000. Why have they refused to comply with this law? It is this and this only that is the cause of their present difficulties, both in Texas and Short Creek. It will be the cause of their demise if they persist in the practice. There is nothing wrong doctrinally or otherwise, with waiting until a girl is 18 to marry her.
What is the problem with impregnating the women of biological age? Most historians say the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary at about age 12 - how could she be of conscious age. And many Historians claim one of Muhammed's wives was 9 years old! It is just cultural diveristy, that is all.
Anon 9:25pm - you're absolutely right! The attorneys should use your statement as their defense.
As much as it fascinates me to read the FLDS posts, it makes me sad. I'm not saying that to amount to anything you have to be educated, but it does help to get the point accross better ("cultural diveristy"??).
These FLDS men are just old perverts hiding behind their perverse fundamentalist view of scriptures that were never intended to be twisted into such a sick way of life. These women and young girls have no way out of this ridiculous life because they would not be able to leave without their children. They also make it impossible for people to leave because they wouldn't have any means of supporting themselves. Also if people grow up in this brainwashing enviroment their whole lives they believe that it is normal or right(its not their fault). I hope those jackhamers are going right for that temple, better yet bring in the wrecking ball.
Everything you say is right on. The way these older men try to come across as spiritual giants and make these ladies afraid of anything outside of them. They take all their choices away by denying them of a decent education, then impregnate them before they can form a mind of their own.
I think it's right that these women have been set free, if only for a time. They can see that people on the outside can be really good and do want to help. If nothing else, it will cause them to challenge all the bull they've been fed their whole lives.
I TOTALLY AGREE THAT THIS COMPUND IS FOR DIRTY OLD MEN TO GET THERE ROCKS OFF WITH YOUNG TEENAGE GIRLS AND TRY TO CONTROL THERE LIVES. THEY ARE JUST LIKE PAEDOPHILES ( EXCEPT A PAEDOPHILE WOULD BE ARRESSTED AND PUT IN JAIL ) THEY THINK ITS THERE GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO RAPE YOUNG GIRLS. ASK ANY 15-16YR OLD IF THEY WOULD WANT SEX WITH SOME 52 YR UGLY OLD MAN WHO HAS OTHER WIVES AND KIDS. THEY ARE SO SICK SICK SICK.
And you are not, I suppose. Why is it that our punctuation has you so bothered? And, it's not even necessarily that we CAN'T spell, it's sometimes that we cannot control our keyboards. Perhaps that makes us backward. But, can you build a chicken coop? Survive without your big city networks? We would all like to know just exactly how well educated YOU are and where that may or may NOT have gotten you in life.
Yes, I'd like to hear that explained as well. I'm also curious about how that temple is laid out. For instance, is it similar to a christian church, with a main gathering area, and perhaps prayer rooms, offices? I think someone else asked what the smaller building next to it is used for, but no one answered. It just seems very, very large to me, so I'm curious. It would be a shame if it really is true that they'd choose to tear it down after all the work to build it just because it's been entered by outsiders. So sad. The whole thing is so sad.
If there was a God that came in it before, I don't believe they were hearing the right messages from him. For instance to have children bear children. Yeah I don't believe ANY God would pass that message along.
Oh, and that all the people on the outside of the FLDS are awful people. Funny how hundreds and hundreds of us awful people on the outside have volunteered to represent the FLDS children for FREE so that each and everyone can be properly represented.
Wow..us bad bad outsiders. Why would we volunteer our time if we're all so incredibly awful?
I am interested in a valuation of the structural property that was developed on this site. It would be very interesting to have an appraisal of the property since there are some serious questions about the funding sources. I just read that the Department of Defense indirectly may have been at least one source.
I'll tell you why us outsiders are still so awful.
We're trying to get all of them on drugs and cussing like the rest of us. We always need more apostates here on the outside, you know. More people to listen to our hanky-panky music and more people to eat our filthy food.
We also want to have more sex with those gals too. Isn't that how the men scare them into staying where they are?
I agree with Native Texan. If there are wrongs they need righted. Prosecute if the law has been broken. But do not put out these allegations such as the one about the DOD being a part of this. I imagine this allegation comes from the fact that the FLDS members have a legitimate business that fills contracts for the DOD just as any contracting manufacturer would. Anyone close to that type of business knows these are usually lucrative accounts. That the business turns a lot of money into the FLDS coffers is true as well but the owners and employees are agreeable so what? Aren't they expressing their American liberty?
People that are willing to spread this type of allegation without investigation are undoing the work of hundreds that are volunteering and showing the FLDS what great guys the 'outside world' are.
I find all of this very sad. I feel bad that the children were taken away from their mothers. I find it sick that children are married at 14, 15, 16 and 17. If you want to practice this (illegal) "religion", then knock yourself out. But let the kids be kids, please. If they decide at 18 they want to "marry", then fine. But until then, they are children. I don't agree with this whole Poligomy thing, but that isn't what the problem is here. The problem is that these sick men are hiding the sexual abuse behind their religion (how about that marriage bed in the church? Those sickos just can't wait to get in the pants of these poor teen girls). Why can't the mothers stand up for their children? Maybe they should be charge with abuse or endangerment as well? They know what's going on. I could never allow my child do go through something like that. I was listening to the news last night and ther was a woman (I can't remember her name) on there defending all of this. She looked so cracked out and like everything was rehearsed. Not only that, but she didn't sound very educated. I feel sorry for the children involved in all of this. I pray that justice is served for the children.
I read about half the posts on here before I had to scroll downa nd leave a comment... I cannot believe that there are so many posters who think it fine for girls under the age of 16 to be raped and impregnanted by these dirty old men that as one poster rightly wrote - are using religion to hide the fact that they are paedophiles!
Yes it is a very delicate situation, given that the children are brainwashed into believing that the outside world is evil and I pray that this will not do them more harm than good but at the end of the day, I couldnt care less whther the call was a hoax because it has led to these poor children being saved. Some say that at 16, the girls are choosing to marry and have sex and bear children - what bull! Their minds have been manipulated in to thinking that is what they need to do. Something needs to be done, before these girls grow into women and begin to offer up their children on a plate for dirty perverts, which is what they are.
Polygamy is a sad, vindictive and poor excuse for a deeper running malicious intent.
It's not about polygamy. It's about human rights violations and due process. What makes this country great is the fact that we all agree upon laws that we agree are for the common good, then we follow these laws. If a few of your neighbors abused their children and the government came and took away all of the children on the block including yours, you likely wouldn't be saying you deserved it. People have a right to live differently, if they break laws they need to be prosecuted within due process. What I read here is not prosecution but persecution. Note the important difference. As a final note, until you see evidence of all these crimes allegedly committed, stop. Just stop propogating rumors for goodness sake. Crimes have been committed I am sure and more will come out, but unless you have a valid source, stop spewing propoganda that is harmful to others. Or just burn the witches and anyone else who is different than you before you get to know them and can judge rationally. It's really up to you I guess.
I would just like to know how these men are able to financially support so many children. Are any on welfare or child support? If they are, then it is the state of Texas' business. If they aren't, and it is true that the child brides are older, then we should leave them alone.
How unjust and uncouth. I grew up in the Colorado City Sect., and have been mortified at the abuse and injustice that Warren Jeffs has had to endure at the hand of "The Law". This land was carved by the hands of men whom at that time were classified as extremists, religious outcasts. What has this country come to that they feel they have the "Right" to force beliefs upon anyone. Seeing something as wrong for you does not make it wrong for another. As I said before I grew up and traveled various communities that were under the direction of Warren Jeffs, and not once did I see abuse. Abuse has many different faces and I refer to all. Mental and physical abuse are dealt with sternly in that religious sect. A man can loose his family or rights to a family if he is physically, mentally, or verbally abusive. Any barrel will have it's rotten apples, but when they are discovered they are turned over to the proper authorities, to be dealt with by the law of the land, or under the supervision of the church if the infraction was not under the jurisdiction of the law. How dare the media twist and manipulate the facts to create a false and tantalizing story...what ever happened to reporting the facts. New has become a melting pot of deceit and lucrative scams. The reason no one will speak to the media, from this sect., is the fact they know their testimony or opinions will be edited, misquoted, rapped, and sodomized to the fullest extent that can be called the disgusting art of journalism. What happened to the freedoms that this country was founded on? Why have we resorted to tormenting those who choose to live a more simple life, or revert to religious beliefs that are not socially accepted. Who are we as a country to judge, them when we constantly try to separate ourselves from the fact that we are all what makes this land what it is... The polygamous sect led by Warren Jeffs, though I am no longer a member by my choice, is one of the most honest and forthright religious sects to grace this time. Even the Mormon and Catholic religions who have grown to be the power houses in this fight for attendance, have bastardized their beliefs to become more appealing. Why pick on a small sect. simply because in the larger picture, they have chosen to stand by their beliefs.
Who is forcing beliefs on anyone? The FLDS have chosen to violate a law that they knew was on the books. A law that is not supported by doctrine within their own professed belief system. They call themselves fundamentalists but this underage marriage idea has no roots in fundamental Mormonism. It has materialized in the last decade or so. How fundamentalist is that? Their own leaders have in the past decried the act of marrying underage girls. How can you in good conscience support this?
This another case of being considered guilty before it has been proven.There has been no proof offered except an anonymous call from a person they can not even locate.I have seen that now some of the kids have been moved to Cal Farleys Boys Ranch in the Texas panhandle.This place abused me and many others repeatedly some 30 + years ago.Where was the state then?They would not listen to us.But now a call does it. Has anyone thought about the danger posed to those kids by the cops busting in there like the Marines,heavily armed as they say.
Until a court of law PROVES that these people are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt then they have a right to be secure in their homes and families.THEY ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
This so absurd and proof of a runaway judicial system that is for sale to the highest bidder.This country is fast slipping into a fascist state and you hipocrates only help it along.How would you feel if it were you or your lifestyle being accused?Give these people the benefit of the doubt until something is proven...or does your Cristian teachings prohibit it. American People scream about freedom until they see real freedom and then it scares the hell out of em....
Okay, I'm probably going to be very unpopular for my take on this issue, but please bear with me and hear me out. My real concern about this whole drama is regarding civil liberties. To me, this entire incident and the fallout beginning to occur has sounded awfully fishy. I hope that more of us will examine this situation from all angles before we form a quick opinion and file it away. This historical event could very well have ramifications for all of our futures, and the very survival of this country.
For those of you who may not be aware, authorities raided the 1,700 acre Yearning for Zion Ranch in West Texas on April 3rd, allegedly as the result of a call from , a 16 year old girl who claimed to be living in the compound, married to an older man who physically and sexually abused her. Interestingly enough, although police burst in with guns and S.W.A.T. gear, taking 416 children and their mothers captive, no one has been able to locate this caller. Indeed, no one has even been found who knows her or has ever heard of her before.
But let's even look past that. Let's play devil's advocate for a while. Let's assume that this girl does exist and let's assume that her accusations and claims are valid. Wouldn't you send CPS investigators to the home in an effort to determine the facts? Why would a massive police raid ensue, and why would 416 children be forcibly taken away from their mothers in buses? The mothers and children were kept apart, and all cell phones were confiscated, so that no one could contact anyone else.
And this is the point that REALLY bugs me. WHY would you raid the entire community? If CPS received a call from anywhere else, would police raid the entire community of Cedar Park, Plano, Bethesda, or Carmel because of one report from one family? How can even the original family be considered guilty without a proper, formal investigation, much less the entire community?
Additionally, comments from both Representative Harvey Hildebran and Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott certainly point to at least the possibility that this was a premeditated set-up, based on fabricated information.
Although officials originally stated that the raid had absolutely nothing to do with polygamy [most notably, Darrell Azar of the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (TDFPS)], Hildebran's statements indicate the exact opposite. "We've been fighting this for awhile, trying to do something about it," Mr. Hildebran said. "But we needed a complaint. You can't just say: 'Golly, I can't get into that ranch, I bet you lots of awful stuff is going on in there.' " Mr. Hildebran said that based on recent conversations with law enforcement officials, they had been poised to respond if and when a cry for help came. "There was some anticipation, at least some preparation," Mr. Hildebran said. Hmmm, do you mean someone might have been a little trigger happy, Mr. Hildebran?
Earlier Thursday, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said on CNN's "American Morning" that "the case really doesn't hinge upon that particular 16-year-old." He said once investigators could "in good faith... go into the compound and determine whether or not there was any kind of wrongdoing, the case is on its own after that." But, he said, "It's our belief that these children who are under the age of 17 have engaged in sex with older men, which is a violation of Texas law, which is also a potential violation of the bigamy laws. So yes, we do believe we have information that will be substantiated in court that will show there has been sexual assault as well as bigamy."
So, then, sirs, it really is about polygamy and religious beliefs? But didn't you say that it wasn't? What about following proper procedures? The identity of this person (most articles simply refer to her as a 16 year old, and very few actually even have her name) and her original call aren't even the basis for the case? Well, then, what was your basis for the raid?
Oh, but, wait, it gets so much better. Personal property, such as hard drives from computers, were immediately taken. If your neighbor was accused of child abuse, would it be okay for them to walk over to your house, next door, force themselves in, take your cell phone, take the hard drives from your computers, or anything else of yours, for that matter, and separate you from your children for what has already been two weeks? Oh, but don't let me forget. Your children would also be forced to undergo blood tests, regardless of how you or they might feel about it.
And today, April 17th, the latest chapter has started to unfold: the issue of the legal proceedings themselves. We appear to have completely ignored and violated due process during the haste of separating these families and rushing the children off to foster homes. Because each of the children are being represented by a different attorney (many of them volunteers, at that) and because of the small size of the courthouse, much of this has been viewed by live video feed. And it appears as though possibly many of the lawyers, children, and parents are in different rooms. I am a little unclear on this detail, however. According to the NY Times, "Because more than 350 lawyers are involved in the case, many of them on a voluntary basis, the county courthouse was too small to accommodate them and the members of the church who wanted to attend the hearing. That is why the live video feed was set up at the nearby city hall." Although Judge Barbara Walther of Tom Green County apparently easily justified signing an emergency order to give the state custody of the children, she apparently isn't very concerned about the rights of the children or their families, or to determine probably cause, or to find time to let each case be reviewed individually. According to CNN, "Of Thursday's hearing, [attorney Damiane Banieh] said, 'I found it to be laborious. They were unable to get down to the real issue as to whether or not they had probable cause to go in and get these kids. Attorneys were objecting to everything, and rightfully so. There were lots of motions filed,' Banieh said. 'We didn't have an opportunity, one by one, to look at them and have an opportunity to file written responses. The other thing I had a serious problem with is... no parents, to my knowledge, received a copy of the original petition for emergency removal. You are supposed to know why your children are removed; and if you don't know why your children were removed, how are you supposed to prepare your lawyer to come in 14 days [later] and defend you?' " As per the New York Times, "because of the numbers of the children, parents, lawyers, and state officials involved, some lawyers said they expect all sides to make group arguments, rather than individual ones. While this may sound convenient, and expedient, that is really an insidious illusion. Why should the cases of individual families be potentially compromised simply because lawmakers decided to abuse their authority, arrogantly opting to springboard from one very questionable allegation into a massive illegal search and seizure against an entire community?
As I said, as a starting point, I was willing to play devil's advocate and give the benefit of the doubt that the allegations might be true. But what if I'm wrong, and my concern that this was a staged set-up by certain lawmakers is actually true? The members of the religious community confide that the remote ranch, with its log cabin-style houses and white temple, is simply a refuge from a hostile and sinful world.
This appears to have been corroborated by at least some of the attorneys and members of the police force who participated in the raid. "Two Houston, Texas, attorneys representing children removed from the Eldorado ranch visited it Thursday afternoon, saying they wanted to see whether it was a clean and safe environment, because the state had alleged it was not. 'It was a very clean place,' said attorney Jason Castraneda, who represents a 5-year-old. Members make their own milk and cheese, he said, and the ranch is "almost like a little city.' Attorney Damiane Banieh, who represents a 2-year-old, said she did not see evidence that the children were in an unhealthy environment. She described the men at the ranch as cordial, despite the circumstances."
I want to be clear that I am in no way saying that I have a grasp on the compound's way of life and that I am not sweeping the possibility of child abuse or sex abuse under the rug. If that call was legitimate (Google, is there even a recording of it in existence? Apparently not...) and not a prank call from a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman, (ARREST UPDATE!) then the crimes need to be addressed and the problems need to be solved. But from everything that I have witnessed, the real crimes are by the State of Texas and the local Eldorado and Green County officials. Officials said the community was unclean and unsafe. That appears to not be true. Officials claim to have received a call alleging child sex abuse. That caller is nowhere to be found. Officials claimed the investigations and hearings would be fair. Yet, the violent raid, seizure of property, and abandonment of due process appear to contradict that promise.
When I think of attorney Jason Castraneda's observation that this is a tight community in which neighbors are making milk and cheese, it again reminds me of my earlier reactions. What if the local, state, or federal government decides that they don't like the Amish way of life? This country was born out of a desire and a need to escape religious persecution. But we appear to be experiencing just that. Representatve Harvey Hildebran is quoted as having had issues with this particular community since 2005, and proudly announced how he had been working to change laws in order to "fight this" and "do something about it". That hardly seems like an impartial lawmaker to me. What happens when the government decides that the Amish religion is not conducive to "democracy" or that their way of life is essentially "tax evasion"? Do we invade those "dangerous communities" with our SWAT gear and attack vehicles, as well? What if the government decides that it doesn't like your religion, or mine? Heck, lawmakers and citizens can't even come to terms on whether or not The Ten Commandments can be displayed at public facilities, such as courthouses.
Additionally, it appears that at least one 5 year old handicapped child might have been removed improperly, his special needs ignored, and that children are being told it is child abuse to have your mother hold your hand. Wow. It doesn't really sound as though the authorities who claim to be protecting all of these children actually have taken the needs of the children to heart, does it?
I hope that everyone considers these travesties and these frightening trends for what they are. Undoubtedly, the courts will go above and beyond in their efforts to illustrate any real or imagined crimes emanating from inside the compound. So let's try to look at the other side of the coin, the emerging police state and this violation of civil liberties. Heck, with incidents like this, maybe Bush didn't need the Patriot Act to treat all of us as criminals, guilty until proven innocent?
I live close by and if you do decide to drive by you will see what kind of place you're dealing with. If you hesitate too long, you will be greeted by a guard at the gate, who has been staring at you through his binoculars for the last five miles. In addition, the peremeter is patrolled by guys driving ATVs. Oh, and don't forget the pickup truck on top of the huge dirt mound that is on the lookout on a different side of the ranch. Makes you wonder whether they're keeping people in or out.
They aren't a very hospitable group. It's not like you could ask, "May I speak with Sarah?" and get anywhere.
Also, there are only a few large dormitory-style buildings housing all these folks.
Also, who's to say her name really is "Sarah"?
If I were a young abused woman, I'd give an assumed name and just hope to hell to get out of there.
What motive does she have to come forward? If she does and they send her back, she might have to do some "blood attonement" for all the trouble she caused.
What? You haven't heard about the huge incinerator?
Anonymous #1, I originally tried to post a much more abbreviated item, but it was not posted, for some reason. So I went ahead and put the whole thing. However, based on your and Anonymous #2's reactions, it sounds like you not only needed to read it, but you also need to go back and read it a few times. Let's get a good dialogue going. I don't think either of you have thought this all the way through, or how it impacts your own freedoms, as well as the freedoms of your children, grandchildren, etc.
Please listen to yourself. Because you find these people weird and different, you feel the government can come in and raid their homes and take children forcibly away from their mothers.
In other words, if I find your way of life weird, then it will be okay for the government to come in and raid your home, take your family away, and then make their way through your entire street, neighborhood, community?
Do you blame these people for keeping to themselves and having tight security? Hello? They were just raided. Apparently, their paranoia, if you call it that, was well-founded. Did you not read my documentation that the authorities had been looking for an excuse, changing laws, trying to get at them? Would you be a little paranoid if your way of life was being persecuted?
As far as the "Sarah" being afraid, go take a look at the Denver Post and USA Today. There was no recorded 911 call. There were calls made to a sympathetic group in Colorado Springs, and a woman was arrested with Texas Rangers present. Don't be so convinced that "Sarah" exists. Also, Sarah's husband is not and was not even in Texas and hasn't been for some time. And "Sarah's" description of the family she named as her abusers doesn't match the family which she accused. And, given that she named her husband, she certainly couldn't have "lied to protect her identity", as you've claimed.
Now, before we condemn these people for their way of life, let's take a good look at our own society. Look how dysfunctional it is. Look how everyone tries to pass their own sense of morality off on everyone else. Read the news. Every day, you are hearing about 8 year olds having abortions, 9 year olds getting divorces, teen grandmothers. Are you saying that the police need to raid the home of every teenage mother and take her children away, too? Do they need to be brought up on criminal charges.
I am much more away than you are, ma'am, or sir. I think you need to take your own advice.
I am not a polygamist, but im LDS. Now all of my friends are going to bashtalk the church talking a bunch of non-sence because of a fundamentalist group. I believe these people would love there children just like anyone else would but there has to be some common sence. What the hell are you all thinking. If you want to have a million kids, good for you, but when youre married to someone, youre married for all eternity. Why would you want someone elses sloppy seconds. Man, this guy could be a walking HIV. I hope that one day I find someone super amazing that I can be with for the rest of my life, how are you all going to... Oh nevermind, im not the one who needs to judge, its not my place.. But my prayers go out to the mothers and children.
I am not oversimplifying. I am looking at the bigger picture. You are taking your personal reactions to these people and their way of life as justification for what is essentially military action.
Every account which I have read with direct quotes from attorney who HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN on the premises shows that it is not an abusive, unhealthy, unclean environment, and that the members of the community have been cooperative.
Have you read once incident about any violent resistance from them? Heck, I haven't even heard anything about guns.
Have you also considered the damage done to these families over the past couple of weeks, particularly the young children? How many concepts have they been exposed to which they might never have had to face, or, at the very least, not until they were much older? What do you think it is like to live in a calm, peaceful setting, to have it suddenly invaded by a small, violent, scary army and snatched away from your family, questioned, poked, and prodded with a needle? Have you even thought to look past your own prejudice to consider this?
Did you watch the video of the mother who went to hold her young daughter's hand after all of this, only to be told by her daughter that her mom shouldn't do that, as she would get into trouble for child abuse? These children have quite possibly become warped in ways that they never would have become. Even the psychiatrist for the State has stated that traditional foster care would be traumatic for them.
I am not naive. You are the one who is naive. I have said all along that even if there is abuse within this community, their civil liberties were beyond trampled. And if the government can do that with them, they can do it with you. And me. Who's next? The Amish. They're different. Let's go invade all of those communities. Oh, wait. Didn't one of "normal society's" serial killers already do that? Let's try re-examining our own culture and our own failed legal system before we try imposing it on those who are labeled as weird or different because they have a simpler, older lifestyle.
Do you mean to tell me that you think a few attorneys who have spent a couple of hours hanging out at the ranch in a post-invaded state has a better perspective on their culture than a person who was raised there? Do you really think the adults would haul off and hit a child in front of outsiders? Do you think one of the older husbands would summon his young bride of 17 for a romantic interlude in front of law enforcement??
Don't pretend to know my predjudice or my perspective. For all you know I came out of there.
Saying that lawyers saw what was going on and then reported back that there was no funny business is comical. You must be a lawyer...lol.
Kinda like an American celebrity making a diplomatic trip to Africa and sitting down for a meal with a few Africans, then coming back to the USA and telling us that there's no hunger and no AIDS in Africa...
Just because they didn't see it didn't mean it wasn't there! You're getting played, George.
It seems you're ignoring the fact that there was enough evidence for the government to leave with the children and women. This wasn't a vast conspiracy against "different people".
The states of Utah and Arizona have been aware of the problems (physical and sexual abuse, welfare fraud, etc.)within this group for years. I'm sure there was a massive sigh of relief when the FLDS relocated to Eldorado.
Everyone recognizes the fact that this is a bad situation and assimilating into our culture could be a difficult task for them and us. The bottom line is, should we turn a blind eye just because fixing it could be difficult?
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say but there are a few things in your last post that may help your perspective of the FLDS. First they did not actually relocate to Texas, they just spread out in many directions. The problems in Utah and Arizona did not go away with the creation of the YFZ. There are also FLDS located now in Oregon, Nevada, South Dakota, Colorado and Texas that were not there Six years ago.
Second I wonder if you really mean what you said about assimilating them into 'your' culture. If you did I think that statement rather justifies some of what George is saying. You are right about not turning a blind eye to the abuse, but are you serious about 'your' culture being the best solution for these children? If you are and that is the intent of law enforcement then all the claims about persecution become valid. If this is the 'fix' you are after it is doomed to failure from the start and Texas will learn the same lessons Arizona learned in the 1950's.
Anonymous #2, of course I don't know who you are or anything about you. That assumption is inherent in the title "Anonymous". Perhaps if you had the courage to speak openly, as yourself, that would show true courage, as opposed to defensiveness and prejudice. For all I know, you are Representative Harvey Hildebran, who openly bragged about working to change the law in order to criminalize the group, and jumping at the first chance to raid them. Or you could be Attorney General Greg Abbott, who said that the circumstances of the warrant were irrelevant. Or, for all I know, you were the prank caller claiming to be the apparently fictitious "Sarah".
Anonymous #3, I believe you've actually gotten it backwards. So far, this has been a case of "the government says it's there and that they are criminals, so they are."
You are the one who is getting played. And these are the kinds of behaviors which I've been attempting to bring to light regarding this entire situation.
I think the real issue is that I am the only one (between the 3 of you and me) who actually IS looking at this from all angles. The three of you are all assuming that all of these people are guilty. Right or wrong, you do need to remember that this is the United States of America, which is supposed to be a free country. The three of you might feel as though you "know" the truth, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire series of events has been quite "fishy". There are issues with the warrant. There are issues with the intervention. CPS did not follow standard operating procedure. They did not do a civil investigation. They launched an army and ripped open an entire community. Even Flora Jessop, who runs a "rescue operation" for girls trying to leave said that the initial call which came to her was very suspicious and raised a lot of red flags. Yet, the authorities did not question it. They had been preparing for a raid, so the town got a raid.
That's what you're missing. Although the 3 of you may "know" these people are guilty, we still have due process. We still have private property. We still have crimes known as illegal search and seizure. And when we give these liberties up because we think we're back in Salem, Massachusetts and we "know" these people are witches, we are saying that the end justifies the means and we are headed for Nazi Germany. Do you remember a thing called The Holocaust?
You know, I've heard that a large part of the populations in West Virginia, South Carolina, Alabama, and Louisiana are nothing but a bunch of inbreeders and hunt people and make moonshine. Have you ever driven through Talladega National Forest or the bayous of Louisiana? Those people are just plain weird and scary looking. And they stare at you until your car disappears. And did you know that gun dealers, by definition, stockpile weapons? And accountants know the IRS Code the best, so every living accountant is potentially a very sophisticated tax evader. And I've heard everyone living inside the loop in Washington, D.C. is a corrupt politician or a lobbyist representing special interests. And all citizens of Newport, Rhode Island and Grosse Pointe Blank, Michigan are rich people from families of CEO's, and we "know" all CEO's are evil. So let's just round up all of those people from all of those communities because they're weird and they're evil, railroad them through the legal process, and do what we want with them.
You keep talking about the bad things that are happening inside the compound. Greta Van Susteren, however, pointed out that it appears only 5 people were possible victims of abuse, which comes down to about 1% of the population. I had heard that it was around 20 people, which would bring the ratio up to just under 5%. Wow. I defy you to find another community where the rate of child and sexual abuse are that low. Hey, wait, you know what? I have got a GREAT idea! You are going to love this, so listen up, okay? This is great. Let's rip all of them out of this community and let's put them in zero lot line suburbia, where they can't play outside alone without fear of being hit by a speeding car or kidnapped, raped, and killed. Let's put them in a failing school system where they can be exposed to profanity, materialism, and drugs. And if they don't get hooked on drugs, we'll put them on Ritalin (which is Meth, by the way... you know, the whole War On Drugs?). Then, if we can't get them on Ritalin, let's skip to the chase by requiring ALL teenage girls to take a drug to help prevent disease because, let's face it, we know all teenage girls have sex.
Better yet, let's send them all to Catholic School. Have you been watching the latest news updates over the past several days? You ever hear of this guy called the Pope? Guess what most of the headlines have centered around? I'll tell you: Priests and Bishops molesting young boys and girls, and the associated fallout. The most popular question is, "How do we fix it?"
So maybe we shouldn't be in such a rush to self-righteously "assimilate them into our culture" with the arrogance that we know best or that we have the best system.
Let's try to remember that this country was founded on the basis of keeping Church and State separate. We are supposed to tolerate different belief systems and lifestyles. The government is supposed to respect private property. Once you allow the government to invade homes and communities because "those people deserved it" or because "we know those people are bad", we've lost liberty and given ourselves over to tyranny.
It concerns me that the 3 of you are so defensive and steadfast that you can't see this.
I think the real issue is that I am the only one (between the 3 of you and me) who actually IS looking at this from all angles. The three of you are all assuming that all of these people are guilty. Right or wrong, you do need to remember that this is the United States of America, which is supposed to be a free country. The three of you might feel as though you "know" the truth, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire series of events has been quite "fishy". There are issues with the warrant. There are issues with the intervention. CPS did not follow standard operating procedure. They did not do a civil investigation. They launched an army and ripped open an entire community. Even Flora Jessop, who runs a "rescue operation" for girls trying to leave said that the initial call which came to her was very suspicious and raised a lot of red flags. Yet, the authorities did not question it. They had been preparing for a raid, so the town got a raid.
That's what you're missing. Although the 3 of you may "know" these people are guilty, we still have due process. We still have private property. We still have crimes known as illegal search and seizure. And when we give these liberties up because we think we're back in Salem, Massachusetts and we "know" these people are witches, we are saying that the end justifies the means and we are headed for Nazi Germany. Do you remember a thing called The Holocaust?
You know, I've heard that a large part of the populations in West Virginia, South Carolina, Alabama, and Louisiana are nothing but a bunch of inbreeders and hunt people and make moonshine. Have you ever driven through Talladega National Forest or the bayous of Louisiana? Those people are just plain weird and scary looking. And they stare at you until your car disappears. And did you know that gun dealers, by definition, stockpile weapons? And accountants know the IRS Code the best, so every living accountant is potentially a very sophisticated tax evader. And I've heard everyone living inside the loop in Washington, D.C. is a corrupt politician or a lobbyist representing special interests. And all citizens of Newport, Rhode Island and Grosse Pointe Blank, Michigan are rich people from families of CEO's, and we "know" all CEO's are evil. So let's just round up all of those people from all of those communities because they're weird and they're evil, railroad them through the legal process, and do what we want with them.
You keep talking about the bad things that are happening inside the compound. Greta Van Susteren, however, pointed out that it appears only 5 people were possible victims of abuse, which comes down to about 1% of the population. I had heard that it was around 20 people, which would bring the ratio up to just under 5%. Wow. I defy you to find another community where the rate of child and sexual abuse are that low. Hey, wait, you know what? I have got a GREAT idea! You are going to love this, so listen up, okay? This is great. Let's rip all of them out of this community and let's put them in zero lot line suburbia, where they can't play outside alone without fear of being hit by a speeding car or kidnapped, raped, and killed. Let's put them in a failing school system where they can be exposed to profanity, materialism, and drugs. And if they don't get hooked on drugs, we'll put them on Ritalin (which is Meth, by the way... you know, the whole War On Drugs?). Then, if we can't get them on Ritalin, let's skip to the chase by requiring ALL teenage girls to take a drug to help prevent disease because, let's face it, we know all teenage girls have sex.
Better yet, let's send them all to Catholic School. Have you been watching the latest news updates over the past several days? You ever hear of this guy called the Pope? Guess what most of the headlines have centered around? I'll tell you: Priests and Bishops molesting young boys and girls, and the associated fallout. The most popular question is, "How do we fix it?"
So maybe we shouldn't be in such a rush to self-righteously "assimilate them into our culture" with the arrogance that we know best or that we have the best system.
Let's try to remember that this country was founded on the basis of keeping Church and State separate. We are supposed to tolerate different belief systems and lifestyles. The government is supposed to respect private property. Once you allow the government to invade homes and communities because "those people deserved it" or because "we know those people are bad", we've lost liberty and given ourselves over to tyranny.
It concerns me that the 3 of you are so defensive and steadfast that you can't see this.
I'm sorry if my comments about integrating the children into the outside world came across as self-righteous. I don't think that pulling all 400 some odd of them out of there permanantly is the solution, because I don't believe they're all being mistreated.
The state of Texas had a responsibility to follow up on the call they received from this "Sarah". Now we all know that call was most likely a hoax, but who's fault was that? It was a pretty good hoax and I'm sure that you both know how many Barlows there are in that community (or have they all been excommunicated?). When they went in to find "Sarah", they found that most of these children were unable or unwilling to identify their birth mothers. Also you have several hundred people housed in a few large buildings (no, it's not like a regular city block and that comparison is ridiculous). How do you isolate abuse in a situation like that? Even when they separated the women and children from the men, many women were unwilling to answer simple questions without running it by their husbands on the cell phone. This probably came across as suspicious. What a mess!
At any rate, let me be very clear in saying that I don't care if you're Amish, Muslim, Protestant, Agnostic, Catholic, FLDS, or LDS, it's never okay to abuse a child psychologically, physically, or sexually. It's a human rights issue, not a religious issue.
The laws of our land are laid out this way to protect the innocent (except the abortion laws). Don't knowingly violate these laws, then cry "religious persecution" when you have to pay the penalty like the rest of us.
George Dewey, I too am watching a lot of Gretta these days and Fox News. I can only assume that your views, like mine, are somewhat conservative. Religious freedom is one thing I treasure about our great nation, but we can't pick and chose which laws apply to us due to our religious views and expect everyone to step aside.
The reality of the situation is that not all of the children will be returned. I hope they are able to temporarily place these children with others who have previously been a part of this group. They would be better equipped to understand the challenges and needs of these children.
It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. My guess is that CPS and others within the Texas justice system know a lot more than us bloggers and news-watchers.
I know a little about fttc's background, but what about you, george?
No, actually, I'm not FLDS. I actually wasn't even aware of this compound's existence until this news story came out.
I am simply very, very concerned about the government's continued expansion of power and intrusion into our private lives.
The closest I can come to relating to this story, personally, is that a former neighbor of mine was once accused of sexual child abuse. It ended up being a ruse by his ex-wife, but he was vindicated, in the end. If you apply the current Eldorado model to that incident, the police could have raided all 40 or 50 homes in our neighborhood.
Why are corrupt polygamous cults given tax exempt status? Polygamy is illegal (a felony). Americans should demand that their religious tax exemption be stripped away. It's simply OUTRAGEOUS!
Senator Linda Binder talks about this in the documentary film, BANKING ON HEAVEN.
I'm glad your neighbor was vindicated. Hopefully those who are innocent will be upheld in this case too.
I don't agree with the comparison that your whole neighborhood could have been raided.
Do most of you live in just a few large houses? Do many of you eat together every night? Do the wives in your neighborhood share in childcare, homemaking, and schooling responsibility? Do you share in the disciplining of one anothers' children? Do most of the men work together? Are you related to many of the people in your neighborhood?
Unless you, too, are in a communal living arrangement I doubt you could answer yes to many of these questions - at least I can't.
My point is that in a situation like this there is a lot of "village effort" in raising the kids (correct me if I'm wrong any FLDS). It's not as if you could go directly to Mr. and Mrs. Smith and find out exactly where the child has been, who they've been with, and what they've been doing 24/7. You may only have a few people who are abusers in the group, but they have access to many. It is a statistic impossibility that there is only one abuser in the group and also impossible that only one or two kids may have been affected in this living arrangement.
I understand what you're saying about the government's intrusion into our private lives, I just don't think you can compare their lives side by side with your's (you said you're not FLDS).
Obviously those who have left the group did so because they weren't happy with one aspect or another. One thing they all complain about is the abuse they suffered within. Also, I haven't heard one thing said about their actual belief system in these cases. It seems to be all about the way it's affecting the children. Anything beyond that is pure opinion and speculation.
You mentioned you've been watching Gretta. I was also watching. Did you watch Sean Hannity's coverage on it immediately afterwards?
It is unlawful for a man to have more than one legal wife, just as it is unlawful for a woman to have more than one legal husband.
The "loophole" is that, in these polygamous communities, the men do not legally wed more than one wife. They have religious marriages. They take religious vows. These are not legally binding.
If you want to end the abuses, then we, as a society, should legalize polygamy, and, as a society, force ALL MEN to financially support any children they create.
There is no real reason to make polygamy illegal, anyway. We do have Separation of Church and State. Marriage really has nothing to do with the government.
That being said, it is my understanding (and I've only seen this from one unconfirmed source) that none of the women in this compound are receiving welfare benefits as a result of their status of single motherhood, as is the case in many polygamous societies.
However, I did also "learn" from another undocumented source that members of the group outside of the compound were receiving WIC and other benefits, much of which had been sent to members of the compound.
The simplest ways to end these abuses are to legalize polygamy and minimize our welfare programs. While there are many valid, necessary welfare programs, there are far more which are abused excessively... all at your and my, the taxpayers' expense.
On the subject of taxes, let's not forget that the improved 1,700 acre property has been a tax boon to the area, which is not exactly property rich. The church obtained the property at a fairly low price, from what I understand, and built it apparently with no outside labor. Additionally, they quarried rock from the premises, which was used in construction of many of the structures. The quarried land was turned into farmland. They have their own sewage system and their own milk facility. Despite any feelings we might have about their religious beliefs, there are a lot of lessons to be learned from self-sufficient communities like this.
Thanks for clarifying. I expected your response to be something like it was. Like I said I don't disagree with much of what you say but the way it was worded sounded different than what you have posted in the past. I have appreciated the dialogue and hope to continue it!
Anon 12:31
I wonder what you have reference to. I have not read Banking on Heaven but I do know that as long as I was in the FLDS they were not tax exempt. I could never write off on my taxes the contributions I made to the organization. Do you know this has changed? I did not suppose it had.
With regards to the summation of your position, "I understand what you're saying about the government's intrusion into our private lives, I just don't think you can compare their lives side by side with your's", that's the very stance which has gotten us into trouble and the faux "authority" which the State is using to abuse it's power.
I don't think there is one party on this blog trail who approves of child abuse. Hopefully, we can all agree that child abuse, sexually or otherwise, is wrong. I feel pretty safe in that assumption.
What we need to examine is method, means, and motive. I see absolutely no reason that the CPS could not have conducted a thorough investigation, complete with audit and oversight, without violating the rights of this community, involving violence, and exposing these children to trauma, including the dangers of the very flawed Texas Foster Care System. This was completely inappropriate.
Let's face it. This is an election year, and the stats for child abuse and child neglect are not in the favor of the current lawmakers or the CPS. What better way to quickly inflate the numbers (and the PR) by engaging in one massive raid to immediately inflate the numbers and create the illusion of a solution?
As far as Fox News goes, I saw Greta talk to Jessop, and I also saw Kilmeade and Doocy talk to Greg Abbott. Needless to say, I was not impressed with Greg Abbott. I have very little remaining respect for Sean Hannity, but, as I've said before, I attempt to look at things from all angles. I'm sure I can find a replay on YouTube. Thanks for letting me know about it!
Considering the divorce stats in this country, do you think allowing more marriage would be good? These folks in the FLDS generally stay together because they have an eternal stake in their position in the marriage. If you take out that element, can you imagine how confusing it would be to the children with all the adults coming and going?
Also, outside of religious obligation, I'm not sure most people can do polygamy well...maybe I'm just speaking for me!
You have a very strong opinion about what the government is doing here and I respect that. Again, I am for less government intervention in our lives. I do feel that your opinion lacks well-rounded information, particularly about the FLDS.
With all the DNA testing that's being done this week, we have a lot more to think (and talk) about.
What do you think about the reassigning of wives and children by the group's leadership over the past few years? What happened to the husbands' rights to raise their children with their wives? What about the childrens' rights to know who their father is? How about the wives being forced into a new marriage with a new husband, who has a the same rights over her that her old one had (including sexual)?
I read that some of these women had been reassigned four and five times.
As to your question about why they couldn't take their time and do a thorough investigation I have two words for you: FLIGHT RISK.
The FLDS leaders have deceived Texas authorities again and again over the last few years and have lost all trust. This is not a normal situation as much as you would like to believe it is.
What is your problem with foster care? I take offense.
By the way, you mentioned in an earlier post that polygamy should be legalized and men required to financially support any children they help bring into the world.
Aren't men who bring children into the world already required by law to financially support children they bring into this world?
What you're not grasping is the blatant disregard and disdain many of these folks have for the law.
If that were not the case, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.
The divorce stats in this country, as well as the confused children who end up with several sets of step-parents and step-siblings (who also then leave their lives) would be a reason to consider polygamy.
What's worse? Polygamy practiced responsibly (not saying FLDS does or does not do that) or serial monogamy (which is inherently practiced poorly)?
But, once again, my arguments are not for or against polygamy. My arguments are not for or against FLDS. My arguments are for civil liberties and against overzealous, fascist police and government.
No kidding! There are cops all over the place. I hope they take the children out of there and put them in good homes.
ReplyDeleteI hope they get a search warrant and search the basement of the temple while they are at it.
ReplyDeleteThe basement?
ReplyDeleteA little more to the story from the Deseret News:
ReplyDelete"...a girl called for help from the ranch."
Note to Texas Authorities:
ReplyDeleteThis is NOT a Religious Issue
This is NOT a Marriage Issue
This is NOT a Sexual Abuse Issue
This IS a Civil Rights Issue.
These parents have deprived their own children basic civil rights and knowledge of common law.
This is the only way this can be ended
....and this NEEDS to be ended
keep sweet eldorado
stg
They need to leave these people alone!
ReplyDeleteWhat they really need to do, is their job and that seems to be what they are doing. If a girl has called the police with a concern they need to check on her.
ReplyDeleteNews report says they are being very cooperative, and I think the people of YFZ want to address her safety as well. I don't agree with a lot of what goes on within that group, but you can be sure they have the same feelings for their children as any of us.
From the AP:
ReplyDeleteTexas troopers remove busload of children from secretive polygamist
retreat built by Jeffs
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer
ELDORADO, Texas (AP) -- Child welfare officials and state troopers Friday removed a busload of children from a secretive religious retreat built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs following a complaint.
Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state agency, confirmed that a white bus that drove out of the compound accompanied by
troopers was filled mostly with girls. She could not immediately
say how many.
Authorities surrounded the retreat, built by the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, late Thursday and served search and arrest warrants Friday.
Meisner said her agency is "investigating whether any children are in danger."
Schleicher County Attorney Raymond Loomis Jr. said a girl apparently called state authorities to complain, but he had no other details. The case was being handled by prosecutors in San Angelo, north of this tiny west Texas community. The district
attorney's office there declined comment.
Tom Vinger, a Department of Public Safety spokesman, said his agency was responding to a complaint but he could provide no other details. He wouldn't say how many people were being interviewed or how many officers were involved.
"The people inside are cooperating. They provided all the people we wanted to talk to," he said.
The ranch is north of Eldorado, down a narrow paved road.
Authorities blocked access to the compound's gate, keeping people miles outside the area.
Only the compound's 80-foot-tall, gleaming white temple is visible on the wind-swept desert horizon, but Vinger said the ranch has numerous buildings. Local authorities in 2006 put the figure at about 150.
The retreat was built by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The congregation, known as FLDS and led by the reclusive Jeffs since his father's death in 2002, is one
of several groups that split from The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints based in Salt Lake City decades after it
renounced polygamy in 1890.
In November, Jeffs was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the
rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.
In Arizona, Jeffs is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives. He is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., awaiting trial.
The group's retreat, about 160 miles northwest of San Antonio, is located on a former exotic game ranch. The group bought the property in 2004 for $700,000 and began an ambitious construction
program anchored by the temple.
(Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
new reports a few buses full of girls have been removed from the ranch.
ReplyDeleteThe children were taken from the community in
ReplyDeleteBaptist church buses. Perhaps the Baptists would
like for their young girls to be interviewed about
sexual activities in their homes.
It is a sad day for Texas.
News report just reported that 51 children have been removed from the ranch and are under the protection of the Texas Child Protective Services. An earlier report said that two small bus loads of teen aged girls (estimated number was two dozen) had been removed. The arrest of one male is pending. Presumed cause for the pending arrest is open practice of polygamy with a minor child.
ReplyDeleteI have a feeling that there are many layers to this story.
ReplyDeleteWell if these guys are still taking underage girls after everything that has happened they have done this to themselves.
ReplyDelete"Bailiff, smack his pp"
Remember WACO!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThis is EXACTLY the same as the FEDS tried to do in the Davidian massacre!
To me it sounds more like the 1953 Short Creek raid than Waco!
ReplyDeleteDo the CPS / DPS people have a clue what they're dealing with? - that these children are NOT like other "abused" children they've dealt with in their careers up to this point?
I sure hope the children don't end up more damaged as a result of incompetent treatment and questioning - even if it's unintentional.
MERRILL JESSOP IS AN EVIL MAN. HAVING BEEN RELATED TO HIM, I HAVE KNOWLEDGE, THAT HE CONTROLS HIS FAMILY WITH HIS FISTS. SO DO MANY OF THE OTHER MEN, INCLUDING DEAR MR. WARREN JEFFS. WHAT, LEAVE THIS PEOPLE ALONE! THE POOR GIRLS THAT ARE BORN INTO THIS INFESTION, NEVER STAND A CHANCE IN LIFE.
ReplyDeleteI did read David Thobideau's book about Waco. I highly recomend it to others. Thank God it is the state and not the Feds dealing with this one!
ReplyDeleteThese people would save themselves a whole lot of trouble by leaving the girls alone until they are of age. When I was in Colorado City, marriage was a way "out" of the troubles of teenage years. If a girl acted "wild" (talking to boys, wearing tight clothes, listening to worldly music) she was often married-off in order to keep her from "getting into trouble". In the earlier 1900's the girls were married as young as 12 to keep them from Gentile men. These people are going to have to take a look at their practices and modify them for the better or continue to face victim lawsuits, public scrutiny, and legal intervention.
BTW, isn't Dale Barlow who Louisa was/is married to? That was another underage issue.... Will they ever learn?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteflds is another way for older men to have sex with minor girls over and over again and hide under the reglion blanket, just pathetic.
ReplyDeletemy position is put them men in texas prison and the the prison have a prison have purals marriage with them.
all yuo others that want to chime me , please do
It does sound like CPS is doing the best they can given the situation, I don't know that anyone that hasn't lived inside of the FLDS compound really knows what's going on - and I'm unsure of what changes have happened since Jeffs' removal.
ReplyDeleteTo me, for one of the 16 year old girls to have called CPS, I'm wondering what kind of "worldly" influences the kids have experienced despite the best efforts of the elders within the compound? The kids are still being taught in schools on the compound, correct? If the report is true, not only did this girl have access to a phone (they don't exactly let ma-bell inside to the best of my knowledge so perhaps a cell phone?), but she knew who to call and how to get the number.... would someone as sheltered as they try and keep these kids have that information?
CNN is reporting it too:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/04/texas.ranch/index.html?eref=onion
Anon, why don't you spew your venom somewhere where it will do you some good? Go see a physchiatrist, get some help for yourself, and quit defiling every forum with your lies. I know U. Warren very well, and I know he never used his fists or any other method of force in his life. You are vile, and full of hate, I pity your life.
ReplyDeleteHopefully, they will find foster homes for the girls with families that have a Christian-fundamentalist slant (like re-born evangalists). I'm not one, nor will I ever be, but I think it probably would be the best for the girls if they are going to be away from their families for awhile. I'm a vegetarian, and I know it would be difficult for my boys if they went to a non-veg family--confusing, you know.
ReplyDeleteBeg Pardon? Warren Jeffs did use force. It is called mind control. First he brainwashed, then he threatened to take away their families if they didn't do what he wanted them to. The mind is very powerful and he knew that.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the parents of these underage plural wives? As I understand these marriages don't happen without their consent. They too should be held accountable for much of what happens to their young daughters.
ReplyDeleteThis situation is a sad 'catch-22'. Taking these girls out the 'cult' could potentially be just as damaging as leaving them in. Since they are indoctrinated 'brainwashed' that every non-FLDS is an 'agent of the devil' and evil, they are likely not going to say anything negative about their 'family', simply out of fear of hell and damnation. It seems like it would be a good idea if the CPS/other authorities use former FLDS member as 'consultants' (ie: Carolyn Jessop, etc). Since these are the ONLY people who truly know what these kids are thinking/feeling. Maybe they should give these kids' mothers a chance to get out...and be with their children. Such a sad, delicate situation.
ReplyDeleteWhy not send the Texas Rangers to Houston or Dallas? There are plenty of African Americans who practice polygamy there. Common for siblings to have different fathers.
ReplyDeleteHow is this different than the mormons polygamy? No one gets married so its OK to have a herd of women with children from multiple fathers? Double Standard without any doubt?
I do not like Warren, but I feel that taking a 6 month old baby is plain wrong! They cant talk, so what is the point?? Another thing I dont understand is, child abuse happens everyday, why dont they work more on that as much as they focus on these people? Just a thougth.
ReplyDeleteIt was interesting that the authorities used buses from a rival church, the First Baptist Church of Eldorado, to take the girls away (although maybe there were no other buses available.) Some who saw the news reports probably falsely inferred that the "First Baptist Church, Eldorado Texas" was the name of the polygamist cult.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, let me state that this is not a good situation and I am concerned about the ability of Texas' Child Protective Services to do well by the children that it has removed from YFZ. I predict there will be a lot of problems out of it.
ReplyDeleteHOWEVER...It seems to me that there are some people commenting here who have no problem with leaving children in a situation where they are being raped.
Yes, RAPED.
Let's not mince words or pussyfoot around this. There are some of you who would have this RAPE--because girls under 16 cannot legally consent to sexual intercourse--rather than have the state intervene. (And girls between 16 and 18 can't consent if the other party is more than 3 years older than she is.)
That's pretty sick and twisted if you ask me.
As it turns out, it looks like the judge in charge has decided that none of the children should remain at YFZ for the time being. I have heard that 167 kids have been pulled out. Another thing that I have heard is that the authorities are trying to figure out if some of the older children might not be the mothers of some of the babies.
This is a very sad situation, but it was not started by the state authorities, it was started by a group that decided it knew better than the larger society and offered up its girls to rape as soon as they had their first periods. Women and girls are considered property in a scenario like this--and we're not!
So you people who were against the state moving in, think about whether or not you'd like your precious daughters raped by some man because their church belief says that it's their right to marry off a 14 YO since she's now able to have children.
You may hate the state, but think about the young women for once, who are being used by men as trophies for lust and power. So get off your high horses!
I think in a small town they use the buses that are available, school buses were also used. Would it not make sense that the infamts removed could be the children of those underage mothers that may have been placed in protective custody. Hopefully any children that didn't require intervention will be returned to their homes soon. They probably have a lot of frightened kids on their hands.
ReplyDeleteGet off your high horse whoever you are. You have been fed a steady diet of bull puckey for long enough, why don't you try something else, your taste buds would enjoy it I'm sure. A strong mind is one that thinks for itself, not believes every malcontent filthy liar and every bit of media spin. Nobody, and I mean nobody is being raped!! I promise you that the 6 month old babies aren't being raped. I know of one 14 year old marriage, but in general the girls are older than that, you can keep bringing that up for your purpose of sensationalism as long as you'd like, it still doesn't make it the truth. I also know that every person is given a choice or asked if they are willing, they are not forces into the marriages, and you can go ahead and give us your drivel about brainwashing all you want to, I know I've been there, I wasn't brain washed, I loved what I lived. The people of the United States are the ones who are brain washed, with all the TV, sports etc etc, your rights and priviledges are being pulled out from under you and you won't know it till you fall flat on your arses. Your more brain washed than they are. Only the Lord God of Heaven has the right to judge us, you don't and I don't have the right to judge you. The United States of America is supposed to be where you can practice what you believe, I know it doesn't fit in your belief system, you've already notified us of that, what you believe doesn't fit into theirs either, but they aren't trying to take your kids. Your analogy of how would you like your children to be raped is erroneous as well, because they won't touch your children, they home school their own, they teach and train them, and it's the same as you do, except your are being fed sex ed and darwinism in the public school and probably most very probably having sexual relations that you don't have a frieking clue about. Hypocrites!!
ReplyDeleteI have been really busy lately and I missed the beginning of this.
ReplyDeleteAnon 4/05/2008 10:46 AM: I agree with you. Yes, child abuse happens every day. It is in the news as much as anything else. Even as often as anything polygamous/abuse related is. It just seems like there is a lot of media attention devoted to the subject of polygamous abuse because that is what WE notice. I do it too. I can't help it; it's who I am. I usually pass over the news with an uninterested eye until anything polygamous is mentioned. THEN I sit up and take notice because the article might be about someone I know. I really do not think there is more media focused on polygamy than anything else. It only seems like there is.
Anon 4/05/2008 12:24 PM-
I agree with most of what you said. Where there is abuse it needs to stop.
When the authorities received the call from the 16 yr. old girl, they were legally bound to help her- investigate and find out what was going on. They can't just ignore a call for help to protect someone's right to religious freedom. If there is no abuse found, the children will be returned. But the investigation has to take place first. IMHO- the good people in Texas will be as gentle and kind with the children as they can be until the time if/when they return home. There had to be some actual abuse going on for them to have enough probable cause to remove then children, specifically the first 18 children and for there to be a pending arrest of one male.
I believe there will also be some instances where there no abuse will be found and at least some of the children will be returned to their parents.
these people are f-ing nuts and need to have there nuts cut off..."hey I would like you to meet my 20 child brides, what's that? No i know that they are all 12 but I'm too much of a social outcast to get a chick my own age" If any of the girls have been hurt i say its time for a little TEXAS JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat if your child was taken from your home and
ReplyDeleteno abuse had occurred? How would you feel? Yet ALL the children were taken from the commune. I can't believe all families were guilty of abuse. Talk about an overkill by authorities. I've known polys, they love their children too.
Anon 12:56
ReplyDeleteYou can call it whatever you like but 16 year old children having sex with 50 year old men is rape, I don't give a hoot if they're "married" if her parents know or if she thinks he's the hottest thing next to the big JD himself, it's rape and it's sick. I'm 30 and the idea gives me the oogies (technical term), I couldn't imagine.
Poor kids. I really hope that something can be done to help them, but like others here I'm afraid that CPS is just not set up to deal with a situation of this magnitude.
Ideally, the best situation would be for the adults at the compound to agree not to marry off their underage girls and for the girls to be further protected by their parents. One can only hope. My heart goes out to them all.
Here is what we do know: 183 removed from the ranch (according to the SLT).
ReplyDeleteWhat we don't know: Why they were removed and when they will be returned.
Before we judge the State or the FLDS, lets wait and see why they took the children and when they will be returned. The State is dealing with a touchy and volatile subject here, and I’m sure they are the last ones who want to make the situation worse than it already is.
It is good to hear that those at the ranch are cooperating with the authorities. Even if all those removed are brought back quickly, my fear is that this is only going to drive the FLDS even more underground regardless of whether or not abuses and abusers are found and brought to justice. The more underground and secretive they become, the easier it is for those who would do wrong and abuse others to get away with abuse, and the harder it becomes for their victims to get help. It is possible that there are many victims who don't even realize that they are victims at the ranch, but force as a means to "save" someone has never worked in the long run.
For those who are saying less than kind things about the FLDS men....It is easy to judge a whole group by the actions of a few, but to say all the FLDS men are rapists and child abusers when you don't know all the men, just the actions of a few, is nothing less than jumping to erroneous conclusions.
Most of the FLDS men are loving, hard working, and honest individuals who love their families and do all they can for them. In my opinion, their biggest fault is that they have allowed their loyalty to a man become stronger than their integrity. I dare say even most of the men who have married underage girls or allowed their underage daughters to be married did so out of loyalty to the “prophet,” not because they are a group of pedophiles who lust after young women. Branding them as something they are not will only make them mistrust you even more, when a genuine and understanding person is what is really needed to help them out of a bad situation. I thing the sheriff down there has been wise in his way of dealing with those on the ranch.
Nothing good is ever going to be accomplished when both sides view the other as evil, misguided and wrong.
IITMOC
1:20 you are the brainwashed one my friend. God bless you and all the others affected by these sect leaders.
ReplyDelete6:05
ReplyDeleteGod has blessed and is blessing me, and I'm quite sure He is not taking note of the ones your offering. I know I'm brainwashed, just as the LDS church of this day brainwashes their children, and Baptists theirs, and Jehova Witnesses are theirs, and Darwin teachers the classroom around them, and Christianity in general brainwashing their congregations!! What is the difference? Republicans, Democrats, Independents, all brainwashed in some time of their life, everybody has their own opinions, different opinions. I have to not love what I live cause you say? Well, then I'd rather not live, I have a bright mind, I have a degree, I know how to think inside your box, and outside of it as well. You trying to take my rights away will only weaken you to what is happening right under your nose, in this once great nation. Our constitution divinely inspired from above is going to hang by a thread, hell, it's hanging by one now. This episode only strengthens that fact. I say again only God has the right to judge between me and thee. I reserve no judgment for you, yet you do for me. Well, alright then, I still love you.
1:20 p.m., if you know of a 14 YO getting married, I charge you to report it to the authorities. I don't care what jurisdiction within the USA you're in, it's illegal. If you don't, you're a lawbreaker, and I don't care what high-and-mighty stories you're telling yourself right about now, I'm calling you out as an enabler of child sexual abuse.
ReplyDeleteLet's stop pussyfooting around this. What you're endorsing is rape. Why don't you just flat out say that because of your religious beliefs, you have no problems with teenage girls being raped by men much older than themselves in something that they call "marriage" but looks to all the world outside like giving "things" (girls) to the most powerful men as rewards for loyalty to the prophet and the leadership.
We people in the outside world may not have it all together, but at least we're not offering up our precious daughters for rape to men who are old enough to be their grandfathers...or turning out the girls' brothers to fend for themselves because they represent a threat to the oldsters' harems.
Your world is sick, sick, sick.
But I really am concerned about the kids and young women who have been taken away from the ranch. I worry that they will not be served right by a state bureaucracy that doesn't have much of a clue about plural marriage and about the doctrines these people have lived with all their lives. I mean, you can't just hand a 9 YO girl from the ranch a t-shirt and a pair of jeans and tell her she's going to wear that! To her, that'd be like walking naked down the street. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
I am also concerned that as far as we know right now, the girl who apparently called in has not been found and that is why the authorities are still out at the ranch. They're looking for her. I hope to God that she's alright.
I hope this turns out well, but there are so many variables, it's hard to say.
Something's not right here. Dale Barlow is in Arizona, according to his probation officer, and he claims he's never even heard of her. Nobody can say who the girl is that reported abuse, and they have yet to find her. I'm beginning to believe this was a hoax or a fabricated story. Our government has got to start getting better intel!!! Reminds me of our invasion into Iraq!
ReplyDeletewhat ever you may say about it, the truth about the matter is; if these girls were allowed to grow up and make there own decisions, they wouldn't marry men old enough to be there grandfather. stick that in your sanctified pipe and smoke it.
ReplyDeleteDuff, your thinking too hard again. LOL!! Who's sanctified? Your opinion obviously, I made a choice, I was asked and I made that choice, so you will say I was brainwashed. Hogwash. Free will and choice, and a beautiful choice at that, I would way rather be married to a wonderful man that has matured and mellowed, than a young know it all buck. How do you know what I would think? Huh? Your not even a women, stick that in your pipe and smoke it love!!
ReplyDeleteHey uncaduff you must not know many 16 year old girls usualy they don't listen. at least these parents know how to keep there teenagers from getting pregnant before they are married.
ReplyDeleteI have one more thing to say. you people don't have a right to say anything unless you know someone personaly that was abused, married young, or even onyone in the religion(even though you can't judge a hole people by one person)you have no idea what is best for them.
ReplyDeleteIt's about time a law enforcement agency took off the kid gloves and started treating these people as the criminals they are.
ReplyDeleteMarrying a 15 year old is illegal. Stop doing it and search warrants won't be served at your temples.
Oh enough with the baptist buses already. They were available so they were used. The real question here is it good or bad, legal or illegal for the authorities to remove all the children from the compound. Why were they unable to question them there? Did they discover something they think had them all in danger?
ReplyDeleteThese are the facts we need to know.
I feel bad for these families, though I understand many don't want my pity. I feel most religions simply hold their followers hostage and it's certainly not just an FLDS thing.
Please don't bog us down with the silly bus issue though.
What concerns me is that the authorities have stated that they have not been able to locate the girl who called in the complaint and Warren Jeff's lemmings...I mean followers, believe in blood atonement. They kill any of their own who betray them.
ReplyDeleteHere is a link about a crematorium there with a high enough temperature to destroy DNA.
http://www.childbrides.org/control_ABC4_crematorium_oven_allegedly_ordered_for_temple.html
I hope the police search every square inch of that compound.
Native Houstonian,
SB Smith
Hahaha, Married young! "At least their parents know how to keep their teenagers from getting pregnant before they are married" Hahaha. That's only cause they marry as soon as they CAN get pregnant.
ReplyDelete(Oh and your spelling is horrible)
Hold on Houston.
ReplyDeleteThere is no proof that a crematorium exists at the temple. There is no proof that anyone was blood atoned by the FLDS. The authorities need to investigate as the law specifies, but these are American citizens with religious and personal liberties like the rest of us. Let's not let predjudice cloud our judgement.
I am not saying that I agree with everything that goes on in FLDS but who are we to tell them what to believe or what to think! Now I am not saying that it is okay to beat up on your wife/wives or children but really for those that are not being abused and believe this is the way to heaven, Who are you (plural) to say that is not okay. We don't tell other religious groups what to believe..... we even let some hate monger (ie Rev Wright)......So don't tell these (nice people- says the locals) that are really minding there own business that they should find a new way into heaven.
ReplyDelete4/5/9:00 pm. my first impulse was to apply a little balm to your wounded ego in the form of an apology, but then old memories came flooding back.
ReplyDeleteyou see, when I was growing up at old Short Creek,most of the young people had much more choice in who they married. many of them chose to enter into polygamy, granted,but they for the most part chose husbands closer too there own age, unless they had pressure from men in leadership positions. I recall hearing a conversation by several girls just older than me,(I was ten years old at the time)they were about fourteen at the time is my guess. they were discussing the circumstances that one of them found herself in. it seems she had two of the members of the priesthood council telling her that it had been revealed to each of them that she should marry them. both of these men were in there forties. needless to say the young lady was confused. also, I remember when the "conditioning" began in earnest, to prepare the young women for marrying into the families of older men. I saw young women, or I should say girls, being happy and carefree one day, then suddenly become sad and miserable, or just disappear, the next. now I'm well aware that you will accuse me of not telling the truth, but Ill wager that there will be many, who were there at the same time I was, and after, who will agree with me.
my argument is not with anyone who enters into one of these relationships of there own free will. my argument is against coercion and deception on the part of people who should be protecting these kids, rather than conning them into something so destructive.
now "love" before you launch an "assault of shock and awe", please refer to that part of you, which I know you have, that wants you to be honest. please know that I mean no offense, but please,consider that perhaps you aren't thinking hard enough.
submitted with all due respect.
I'm glad you believe everything a fourteen year old girl says, uncaduff.
ReplyDeleteOn Cnn.com, their Video report said that the call for help came in on the 911 center.
ReplyDeleteWHY DO THEY NOT POST THE CALL ON THEIR SITE SO THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT THE CALL WAS MADE FROM THE YFZ RANCH ???
THERE IS A LOT OF 911 CALLS THAT ARE REPORTED ON THE NEWS COVERING VARIOUS TOPICS... AND THEY SEEM TO ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED BY THE 911 TRANSCRIPT AND ACTUAL VOICE RECORDING.
WHY NOT SHOW THE 911 TRANSCRIPT FOR THIS CALL ??
BECAUSE IN MY OPINION IT WAS FABRICATED.. OTHERWISE PRODUCE THE PROOF !!
Duff, I too grew up in that era, I was fortunate to be in a place where I knew and was taught that a lot of things weren't right, but that in order to correct them would cause a huge rift, of course when it was corrected it did cause a huge one, many many men where here because of immoral desires. To catagorize us all, or all the men as having those desires and thoughts is not only wrong, but erroneous in it's assumption first. Again, I don't blame you, if you were in a situation where you felt better out then I'm grateful you are out. The problem I have is you trying to tell me what I was thinking when I was 16, and many many other girls around me who wanted to be placed by the One man, and prepared their hearts for that placement. I never could imagine such happiness. I've never been sorry, so who are you to tell me what we all think? What we all feel. I'm sorry for your bad experience, but we didn't all have them. That is all I have to say.
ReplyDeleteYou certainly could have found happiness, but there is certainly a great chance that you wouldn't have been happy with the choice made for you. I think that's what he is saying.
ReplyDeleteThere is mounting evidence that the call did not come from inside YFZ, there has been many prank calls in CC/Hildale, they had ADPS and Mohave County Sherrifs @ Lorin D. Fischers house and subjected all his children to interviews, his house to complete and through search all because of a phone call they got. Can you believe that? Lorin D abusing anyone? Anyone with half a brain know's what's going on, I wouldn't be suprised that Flora Mae or someone else with a vendetta made that call, and just gloating over all the fuss. It's wrong in it's entirety in the first place, but to not follow up and make sure they knew where the call came from is sick and wrong, they can do that in this day and age. I wouldn't be suprised to see is a planted call from CPS or some malcontent. Texas is going to have a lot of explaining to do, as well as Mohave County etc. etc.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading David Thobideau's book about Waco, I can see the sense in the judge ordering the removal of children and women from the ranch before the SWAT team did their job. There is an article on the Tribune's website quoting CPS's Meisner as acknowledging that the kids haven't had (much) exposure to the outside world. Hopefully that awareness translates into careful and culturally-considerate treatment. It would be a shame if one form of oppression and abuse was simply replaced by more powerful forms of oppression and abuse originating from a different source, i.e. the gov't instead of the church. The focus needs to be on addressing actual cases of sex with minors; the authorities need to be careful to not make it an agenda of cultural genocide.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that is especially incriminating is that, according to some online newsarticles, there are teenage girls that are currently pregnant in the group removed from the ranch. Even though the 16 year old who sparked this raid hasn't been found so far, the other pregnant teenagers are proof that underage marriage is still going on.
The FLDS could have prevented this raid and future prosecutions by not marrying girls under the age of 18. The blogger who mentioned the parents' role(s) in the underage marriages makes an astute observation. At some point it seems reasonable that parents will be prosecuted for endangerment of a child when they allow and/or support the marriage of their under-age daughter. Like others, I think too much is being made of who owns the buses that were used to transport the children and women.
U. Duff and Love, I think you are both accurate; you are each telling a piece of the story, of the process. U. Duff, the coercion you speak of is real. Love, the choice you speak of is also real. Love's thoughts about an older man vs a younger man are well known arguments in favor of young girls marrying older men. It is an argument that formed many years back; I remember hearing it from my grandmother. In my own life, I took ownership of my life by owning the events, by claiming choice because I could then feel empowered to make changes and to progress. Still, I opened myself to change, and my life is very different than when I first got married. Now I look back and recognize that, while I made choices, those choices were made in a certain environment, in a certain mindset. Part of that environment included a culture that favored young girls marrying older men. While the choice was mine, and it was the best choice at the time, the culture was not my creation; it was something I was born into. As I developed as a person, I found myself wanting something very different than what was inside the group. The more I stepped outside that culture, the less my marriage to someone much older than me made sense. There is a difference between making a choice from a limited number of church-approved options and making a choice from the unlimited supply of options that exist here on earth. The same person may make two different choices depending on the options that are in front of them. I cannot, nor do I try to, claim that I did not have choice in my marriage. However, I do have the right and responsibility to do the best thing for my own life. When my options expanded, my choices changed. At the same time, my earlier choices carry consequences, sometimes painful consequences. Because of this, there are days I wish I had known all the options before I made the choice I did.
Anon27
I agree that the transcript of the 911 call should be made public, but not until the girl is found (assuming the call was real).
ReplyDeleteIf the call was real, if the transcript exists, and if the state is doing their job as they should, they shouldn't divulge the identity of the 16 year old until she is at least found and safe. Even if her name was not on the recording that would be posted, her voice alone could identify her to the people who know her. On second thought, if the call was real, obviously the people around her know who she is because she isn't at YFZ Ranch. Then again, if she is real, and the leaders at YFZ had the foresight and prudence to remove her, why didn't they remove all the pregnant teens (assuming that the reports of other pregnant teens are accurate)?
Hmmm, it will take some time for all the chips to fall. Eventually, the state will have to justify the raid. It is important that we keep watching, keep asking questions and demand accountability. If the raid was staged on a hunch, it could be a violation of civil liberties and individual privacy.
Anon27
marriedyoung said...
ReplyDeleteHey uncaduff you must not know many 16 year old girls usualy they don't listen. at least these parents know how to keep there teenagers from getting pregnant before they are married.
4/05/2008 10:52 PM
Sorry marriedyoung, but 16, married and pregnant or 16 single and pregnant...still means 16 and pregnant.
I don't care what anyone's religious views are. Quite frankly, I don't even care about polygamy - amongst consenting adults. But that's just it, 16 isn't an adult.
And 16, growing up on a commune being fed religious doctrine (good, or bad), means 16 and brainwashed (good, or bad) and no real life experience to use as a basis for making such an important decision as Marriage.
Im glad you believe everything a fourteen year old girl says, uncaduff.
ReplyDeleteuh,...I don't, especially if she says it was her own choice to marry a man the age of her Grandfather.
The way I felt when I was in my teens was that I wanted to be married to an older man because He was more stable and experienced , I knew that I would be taken care of, feed, clothed, etc...
ReplyDeleteI had seen three of my older sisters married off to young single men, they being the first wife, and life was hard for them. Struggling to make ends meet, clothe their children, whereas in a larger household there is more people to help out with the expenses and thus the children never went without a meal, clean clothes ect.
It is not as BAD as some people's imaginations tend to think.
I admit that there are some Men who need to be more patient and long suffering when it comes to challenges in the home, or dealing with others.
BUT NOT ALL THE MEN are like this, My Husband is very patient, I feel at times that He is maybe to patient with the children at times So please do not throw them all in the same pot!!
Uncaduff, you're a bitter old man that lives for these blogs. You say you've moved on and are now LDS but I think otherwise.
ReplyDeleteWhenever the blog gets slow it's YOU who tries to stimulate talk. You feel you've been treated poorly during your time in C.C. Guys like Sam Barlow were probably out to get you. But instead of letting go and moving on, you insist on grinding your axe.
You've made your little haven out there in Fredonia. You wanted to move out of C.C. but didn't want to move to far away either.
Bistlines get their feelings hurt so easily, and they never forget. They always love to play the poor picked on role. I'm sure you have your circles where you get together and salve eachother's wounds and badmouth all the Barlow boys and so on and so on.
All of this is fine by me. I just wanted to call a spade a spade.
A lot of the things you say on this board are half truths. No, I'm not FLDS, I'm not LDS, I'm not a polygamist. I just know your type.
What about the teen age girl and child taken from the group in an unmarked police car? Is she the one they were looking for?
ReplyDeleteTexas Child Protective Services are saying it was a referral, not a 911 call. Also, they are saying there was more than one phone call from the victim.
ReplyDeleteA Referral? You got to be kidding me? They went in there with all this on a referral? I sense some serious undertones here, I'm betting that it's got more to do with the case against Warren than is imagined. Arizona and Utah's case against Warren is so weak that they needed records etc to bolster it, they had a hunch that those records were in the temple, and they fabricated a story to get in there and look for them. I'll bet you money this is more the case than any of the malarky were hearing from the Media.
ReplyDeleteThe problem I have is you trying to tell me what I was thinking when I was 16,
ReplyDelete..............
so who are you to tell me what we all think? What we all feel.
..................
anon 10:13
you should enlighten me, wherein I inferred I "new what you were
thinking." I gave an opinion based on personal experience. and also, you seem to have made your own assessment concerning immoral intentions. I only related an experience, and I'm not sure what part of it caused you to make that inference. I'm well aware that the majority of the men that I new there, were no more immoral than men in general. I know that most of them honestly believed in what they were doing. It wasn't immorality so much as hypocrisy and seemingly deliberate deceit, in the highest positions of leadership, that induced me to seek the truth,for the truths sake. it was then my "bad experience" began.
This is wrong on so many levels.
ReplyDeleteI am not a religious man but I know that the taking of children from their parents is WRONG and illegal unless they have solid evidence. THEY DON'T OR WE WOULD HAVE HEARD ABOUT IT.
What can we do about this?
Curious
ReplyDeleteI think Dale Barlow is being set up by a apostate of the Jessop clan. This will be interesting if it has any Value.
Wrong on so many levels? CPS agents need to protect children. To do that they need to investigate the matter fully which requires interviewing children to ascertain potential threats. This can not be accomplished effectively without removing them from their home environment. If the situation is not volatile they will be returned to their homes. The polygamous parents involved know the risks associated with underage marriages, both participating in them and subjecting their own daughters into these inappropriate relationships. The precedent set by previous sexual abuse cases involving these communities warrants extreme caution and extensive investigation of each and every potential violation relationship. Their civil rights as a religious organization, as parents, and as individuals are always upheld until crimes are potentially committed. At which time the state steps in and needs to make assessments. It's called probably cause and the state, in this instance had every right to do what they did.
ReplyDeleteMy name is Scott.
Yes Scott, as soon as there is something you do that they don't like then they will have every right to waltz into your life turn it upside down, and waltz out, leaving you to pick up the pieces and exclaim "What the Hell" Last I checked this was the United States of America, I know it's core values are down the drain, but this is a little much, number one thing, they need to prove their was a real call, do you know there was a real call for help Scott? If you do, I'd sure like you to share it with us. I'm not FLDS, I'm not even LDS but I'm a true blooded American, and what is going on here makes my blood boil. Our sovereignty is going down the drain from Bush all the way down, I guess I shouldn't be suprised this coming from his home state. I like another here, wonder what I can do. It is wrong whether your LDS, Athiest, Baptist, or whatchmacallit ist.
ReplyDeleteMy names not Scott:
NO, You are wrong! As soon as they think you've broken the law they start waltzing. The waltz typically doesn't start until they either suspect or know you've broken a law.
ReplyDeleteDo you know a call was not made? You question circumstances you are an insider on. For all you know there was a call made. For all you know there were multiple calls made. You question what you don't understand. In time you and I will be privied to the motives behind the raid on the compound. Until then, you can speculate the worst and cry that rights are being trampled based on what the media has let you know.
What I do know is this. There is a history of abuse within this community. That merits investigation of any and all claim of abuse. If this all turns up nothing, so be it. The innocent have nothing to fear. When children are being abused, the state has to take drastic measures to insure the child's wellbeing. These measures required the rounding up of the children in question to ascertain validity to the claims.
What's so hard to understand about that? Are you dense?
My name is Scott.
The original call was probably deceptive and aimed at YFZ by a disgruntled apostate. This may have been arranged by someone outside in Idaho or Canada. I am sure the call is being traced to it's actual origin.
ReplyDeleteEvery one in Eldorado is an "Apostate" so I doubt the call came from Canada or Idaho,if it came from an "Apostate"
ReplyDeleteIf there is abuse among the FLDS people it should be dealt with. However I'm sure that everyone among them is not of that nature. Look at the abuse the Catholic people have had to endure. Perhaps one would think the many millions of their people should be punished, or at least that seems to be the way some here are judging. I have heard of many cases of abuse, which I hope does not continue but for goodness sake don't punish all the associates of the abusers. Get the wrong doer and leave the others alone.
ReplyDeleteMy heart aches for the children who may be separated from loving parents and family. How desperate they must feel--both parents and children.
Think of your own children and how you would feel if they were taken from you! Or how that action would destroy them. They would never trust anyone again. Never! Never! --not completly.
What part of GAG ORDER do you people crying foul not follow? The authorities are under orders not to talk about the case, so you're not going to be hearing much in the media.
ReplyDeleteFurther, the SLTrib is reporting that there is a birth certificate tying the 15 year old to Barlow. If you don't think it's child rape for a 50 year old to be impregnating a 15 year old, you're just as sick.
Whether we agree with authorities or not, it is evident there is such a thing as Divine Justice. These people attempted to break up my family behind my back, but we saw our way through it and they didn't succeed. I didn't experience half what Carolyn did. I know men who came home to find their family gone. Why? Simply because I didn't believe Warren to be a prophet and stated so openly--that gave them the right to try to destroy my family based on religion alone. So, what goes around comes around.
ReplyDeleteI hope this opens the door up for some trapped men to round up their family and get the **** out of there. As it was, I doubt any man stood a chance of rounding up his children. He might get one or two rounded up at YFZ, but word would get around he was apostatizing, and he would never succeed in getting all his children.
Since when does ONE call about ONE girl merit the extradition of hundreds of women and children?
ReplyDeleteShould we remove all catholic children from their homes, after all the child abuse has been documented. Should we storm all catholic churches and remove families from their homes. What about the Baptist? After Waco maybe we should check into the teachings of all Baptist churches and search them. Come on people you want the FLDS to follow the Laws of the Land, then Law Enforcement should as well.
ReplyDeleteI highly recommend the book ESCAPE by Carolyn Jessop. She was married away on a moments notice and lived in the community for her entire childhood and had eight children there. She escaped and wrote a book about what all went on in that community.
ReplyDeleteThis is a sad situation. Far worse than any one of us can imagine. Yes, the children are being married against their consent. However, they don't fight it because they believe that they will be damned to hell.
It is unfortunate that the government has let this go on as long as it has. These women have NO rights. NONE. If the husband wants a three ring circus in the delivery room, then the woman DELIVERING the child has no say in it. This is about so much more than abuse. They are brainwashed into thinking that they don't have rights!
"How can you say these are consenting adults when they have no education, no exposure to the outside world, and polygamy is the only life these women have ever known?" — Carolyn Jessop
She sums it up! We all need to have these young girls and children on our minds. They need our support and love in this time.
I cannot find my post so I assume that it has been removed. Funny it was clean with no insults. Of course if you have a blog that is monitored not for hate or language but for content that is not what the monitor wants to hear then you will not have free press. Its seems that the monitor wants a 3 to 1 for the raid comments. He or She has left some that are offensive but are in favor of the raid. what a shame that the truth will not be allow to come out. I am sure this will not be posted either. I will simply start my own site, I have the time and the money to complete. I will be heard.
ReplyDeleteRape is Rape is Rape. Yes it is wrong. Yes it should be prosecuted. Yes it should be investigated. However, overzealous people in positions of power can cause more damage in the process of addressing existing crimes. There is no amount of rape that justifies the government gasing innocent women and children as happened in Waco. To say, after the fact, "Well, David Koresh raped some girls," in no way justifies hurting innocent people when there were better ways to handle the situation (Koresh could have been picked up alone at any time). Simply based on what happened in Waco, it is important that people question and do everything they can to check the power and zeal of law enforcement, so they don't get out of hand. Even the enforcers need to play by the rule book. I am not saying they shouldn't enforce; however, they should not expect to justify their crimes by citing someone elses crimes. I am not even saying that in this situation law enforcement has behaved innappropriately, but it is not over yet and all the information is not released. All the information may never be released.
ReplyDeleteanon27
Here is what we do know: more than 200 women & children removed from the ranch (according to the SLT).
ReplyDeleteWhat we don't know: Why they were removed and when they will be returned.
Before we judge the State or the FLDS, lets wait and see why they took the children and when they will be returned. The State is dealing with a touchy and volatile subject here, and I’m sure they are the last ones who want to make the situation worse than it already is.
It is good to hear that those at the ranch are "cooperating" with the authorities. Even if all those removed are brought back quickly, my fear is that this is only going to drive my friends and family in the FLDS even more underground regardless of whether or not abuses and abusers are found and brought to justice. The more underground and secretive they become, the easier it is for those who would do wrong and abuse others to get away with abuse, and the harder it becomes for their victims to get help. It is possible that there are many victims who don't even realize that they are victims at the ranch, but force as a means to "save" someone has never worked in the long run.
For those who are saying less than kind things about the FLDS men....It is easy to judge a whole group by the actions of a few, but to say all the FLDS men are rapists and child abusers when you don't know all the men, just the actions of a few, is nothing less than jumping to erroneous conclusions.
Most of the FLDS men are loving, hard working, and honest individuals who love their families and do all they can for them. In my opinion, their biggest fault is that they have allowed their loyalty to a man become stronger than their integrity. I dare say even most of the men who have married underage girls or allowed their underage daughters to be married did so out of loyalty to the “prophet,” not because they are a group of pedophiles who lust after young women. Branding them as something they are not will only make them mistrust you even more, when a genuine and understanding person is what is really needed to help them out of a bad situation. I think the sheriff down there has been wise in his way of dealing with those on the ranch.
I hope that in some way, the FLDS men will decide that the consequence for underage marriage, be it taking a wife or giving an underage daughter, is not worth it. I have yet to find any scripture that says underage girls are more pure or worthy of Celestial marriage than those of age (but they are more controllable, and driving them underground increases the control of the leaders). I just hope the trauma to some in getting to that point is less than the problem (underage marriage)itself.
Nothing good is ever going to be accomplished when both sides view the other as evil, misguided and wrong.
IITMOC
Ok,ok where is the evidence in this case, where is the probable cause?? They "said" that someone had called but they really have no idea if its even true, if in fact someone actually did call. This is an in justice to these people!! I hope they sue over this!! I cant say that these people are perfect but I KNOW that they love their kids and that they dont "Abuse" them. In fact the kids are watched constantly, they have either a mom or an older girl watching ALL the time. Please wake up! Dont just listen to Carolyn Jessop, she might have had a tough time being married to Merril but that doesnt mean that this is the way all men are in this group.
ReplyDeleteThere is a tall fence all the way around the property.? Is that right? For that reason alone I think Texas did what they had to. I don't like it but the fact is, it's a closed society and children could very easily be abused and who would know? How would they get help? And, aren't those women they took most likely mothers of the children? I may be naive but I really doubt the police would take nursing babies too far away from their mothers.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Scott
Deist
They have no guns or weapons, and they are cooperating well with authorities...this doesn't sound like criminals to me. The pictures that I have seen show some bright and healthy children, nothing indicating abuse in any way.
ReplyDeleteAlso, we need to keep the facts straight here. This doesn't smell like Waco at all. This isn't one house with 50 people. This is 150 acres or something like that of land. An entire community that lives a certain way and gets by a certain way. They aren't known to have stockpiles of weapons either. They are a peaceful people. The only issue with the FLDS is child brides and not a single person can vouch for the number of child brides or how rampant it is in the community but the fact is Texas law gives the women the right to consent or not at AGE 16. So if a man who is 50 is married ot a 16 year old and has a baby, it's completely legal in the eyes of the law, so don't take issue with these people and their doctrine in that case, that is up to Texas law.
ReplyDeleteAlso, this is not a "cult" in the respect that the FLDS is the original scripture. The cult would be the LDS or modern mormons as they altered their belief as to not have issues with federal law. The religion itself in it's original incarnation is being followed by these people.
The only people who should be in any trouble whatsoever are the adults in the community who are forcing their children who are under the age of 16 to have sex with adult men. That's it and I think it's ridiculous for them to remove every single child form the home until they find out.
If I call CPS right now because I saw my neighbor punch his kid across the face or do drugs with his underage kid, I don't think they are taking all kids who live in the subdivsion or city into custody to see how many children are doing drugs with or without their parents consent because it doesn't matter it's illegal either way. They are flat out discriminating against this community.
Now if the birth certificate for this case is known; I would think with todays technology the state's records would be able to flag births to underage mothers. If this is the case they should know who they are looking for. I am sure they already know more about who is who in that group than most of us.
ReplyDeleteOh my hell! This has entered the realms of "witch hunt" This has got to stop.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sltrib.com/ci_8839610
The child in question was married and had a child at the age of 15, not 16. In the state of TX, this is rape as the marriage is not legal.
ReplyDelete8:00
ReplyDeleteThe blog administrator is probably too busy collecting news to tend to this board.
Apparently they are holding court to decide if the children should be taken from the homes. What? They already took them, shouldn't they have done their investigation with the children staying in their house and then decide about removal if there was evidence to do so later? This is all being done backwards and is an injustice. Nice democracy we live in when the government can invade a community and take every child they find out of their home because of one "alleged" call.
ReplyDeleteSeriously. If my niece or daughter or someone calls the cops and says I raped them. Are they going to evacuate my entire subdivision or the entier town and place them elsewhere while they see what they can dig up?
This is all so wrong and i'm a complete outsider.
A GATED community is quite different from just any ol' subdivision.
ReplyDeleteDeist
CLOSED SOCIETY!
ReplyDeleteDeist
Here is the deal. There is a line is this country between religious rights and legal ones. Leaving FLDS, look at Christian Scientists. This religion preaches that they cannot seek medical treatment in most cases because it goes against God's will. The courts have given permission to medical practitioners to go against the parent's religious and personal wishes and treat the child. The reason is that a child is not able to make a rational decision. The requirement to autonomy is liberty is agency. Liberty is an absence of external restrictions, and agency is the ability to make rational decisions. In the medical world, a person's agency (and therefore autonomy) is respected in degree starting about 13 years old (with major decision making authority coming later). A 17 year old Christian scientist would be allowed to forgo treatment even if it brought on death, a 14 year old would not.
ReplyDeleteNow I am not a FLDS (I am not even Christian), but I see no reason why consenting adults should not be allowed to live where they want, with who they want, and sleep with as many as they want. But, like the Christian Scientists, I do not believe they have a right to place children at risk (even their own). If there are FLDS (and I am sure there are many) who want to have multiple partners, I will support that right. But for anyone to question the authority of society to pull out 12 year old pregnant girls simply does not understand the Bill of Rights or what the principles of this country are founded on. But, you are more than welcome to sign up for one of my courses on Ethical Theory and I would be happy to teach it to you.
BTW, why do people refer to the FLDS as the fundamentalists when it was the LDS who took it upon themselves to split from the original doctrine of their church? It seems closer to the truth to call the FLDS the LDS, and call LDS the reformists doesn't it? Just a thought...
And, believe it or not, I am a Scott too.
The above post lacks basic common sense, as do many posts int his thread.
ReplyDeleteQuickly the public sides against the agency attempting to protect children and their well being. The agency looking out for people who are unable to stand up for their own rights because they are too young to do it. Shame on you.
Not all heads of households in the FLDS faith are pedophiles but court records show abnormal high rates of sexual and physical abuse. Facts are facts- deal with it. In Texas sex between a 16 year old and a 50 year old is illegal and classified as rape. It is a crime. Facts are facts. The Catholic Church has had a run of sexual-based crimes against youth and are now the targets or lawsuits, intense investigation and everyone quickly jumping to the defense of innocent kids. The FLDS church is no different. It's one thing to be pure and unblemished and crying foul when things appear to being carried away. Who has compassion when the guilty emit the same cry? Few.
The government suspected crimes were being committed. The government in question acted in an appropriate manner to assess the situation and find out the facts. It is called probably cause and they don't need COLD HARD facts to begin gathering information to decide if a crime(s) was being committed. People who suspect a rival faction has set this community up for the fall are ludicrous. Do you really think the police to fielded the alleged phone call can't trace the call back it its origin within the compound? Duh. If they can persuade the girl to step forward and tell all, it will be surprising to me. She's going against 16 years of indoctrination. Heaven forbid she can't formulate enough of a story to warrant being relocated. She'll have earned herself the title of the village idiot and be in turmoil for decades.
I am sure MULTIPLE criminal accounts will be handed down when this entire raid is over and done with. Mark my words.
Warren Jeffs , when captured after fleeing the law, was as cool as a cat. He cooperated and in the end was found guilty. The guilty don't always go down kicking and screaming. Oftentimes- they place it cool and cross their fingers things blow over. YFZ members are playing it cool. Few YFZ heads of households are not guilty of polygamy so they're breaking the law. If you break the law you will suffer the consequences.
Simple cause and effect.
My name is Scott.
Once again the FLDS are in the spotlight and many people that are not aquainted with thier lifestyle and customs are being educated about it. Not becuase they are actively seeking for the information but because it is now being fed to them by the media. There are many shocked people that sympathize with the children and mothers of these families. This is all well and to be expected. There are many explanations for the alleged activities of law enforcement. The truth is we do not know what the reasons are becuase of a gag order placed on those with the info. The secretive activities of those at YFZ have had the effect of suspicion and apprehension in the authorities as well as many people around the country. As has been posted here many times, I too believe most of the children will be found to be in good hands with their parents. If there are truly abuses they need to be dealt with and really most of the FLDS will support law enforcement in prosecuting once the guilt is proven. If the officials allow those who have left the FLDS to 'help' those removed from the YFZ it will only be a further convincing factor in the FLDS eyes that the government is just persecuting them. The more these people are dragged about the stronger will be thier convictions. You cannot convince them by force. These people have allowed themselves to be convinced that thier lifestyle and actions will take them to heaven. They believe the rest of the world is out to destroy them specifically. Actions such as this only contribute to those beleifs. If someone is in error they will only give up the error when they choose to see it for what it is. It is up to each individual to do so. This issue will appear everytime two people of different beliefs come together.
ReplyDeleteThe issue here should be abuse of the children. The young illegal marriages need to stop. Thier own prophet once (1998) told them to stop them and those in leadership did not listen to him. Childbrides was never a tenet of the FLDS faith up to 8 years ago. I am not denying it happened as history will tell otherwise but it was not the norm. Of 15+ sisters/stepsisters all but one are married (some plural) and of those there were two married before 17. They were both married to boys within two years of their age.
I'm a 15 year old girl from El Dorado that has
ReplyDeletealready had a baby. The father goes to the 1st
Baptist Church. Therefore could the authorities pick up all the children from its church families,
hold them for days, etc., while searching for me.
Also, the church itself should be stormed in
case I'm behind the baptismal fount.
muscogeean,
ReplyDeleteThat depends. Were you impregnated by an adult with the knowledge, encouragement, and protection of the baptist leadership? If so, is this a policy trend (i.e. part of the doctrine) or an isolated incident?
If you said yes to the first question, and that this was done (and is done to others) as part of the church doctrine, then yes, we could go into the baptist church.
There is something called association without causation (it is a formal fallacy). Doing something illegal, and simply being associated with something is much different than being a part of something that is causal. It sounds to me that it is the latest prophet FLDS started proclaiming that God endorsed pedophilia. I wouldn't say that FLDS is this, but there is no question that the latest prophet did cause this.
Why are you all so worried about yourselves and your opinions? There are over 100 children here who have just been separated from their lives -- even if those lives were horrible and perverse, they were familiar -- and are now being thrust into the world's spotlight. This discussion should be about them. What can we do for these kids, and these women (young wives and mothers, their mothers, and their mothers' mothers)to help with what they are going through?
ReplyDeleteReally. Is there anything practical that the average citizen could do here to help? Do the families need clothes? Household goods for relocation? Can we make donations?
We are all so lucky to not have our lives turned upside down like this (even if it is for their good). It's a disaster at the level of Katrina -- think of how terrified you would be if you were one of these children, or one of the mothers. Let's stop the in-fighting and get behind our "friends" and help them in their time of need.
This is who deserves our energy and attention.
Can anyone tell me what is the latest? I heard an elderly man went to the hospital with a stoke? I also want to know what the US Citizens are going to do about this travesty, I can't believe your going to just sit there and watch are you? England has come along way since the 1700's can it be that all that you fought for in gaining your statehood, you will now just sit and let die? Are there some there that awake?
ReplyDeletemuscogeean - if your baptist church has a vivid history of sexual and physical abuse and the members are living in a manner that breaks the law (polygamy) then sure. They need to do what's necessary to make sure you're and your peers are safe. If they are harboring criminals who have warrants and who's prophet/leader refused to follow court mandates and flee from the law.... sure. If your community, in addition to the previous items of interest, shelters they're children from child protective services so as to inhibit alleged investigations- then yes- bring in the bulldozers.
ReplyDeleteCome on.. this is not a bunch of law abiding citizens who encourage it's members to follow the laws of the land. These are people who purposely break the law by living in polygamous relationships many marrying children and thumb their noses at the government. Now when the local government steps over the line they've set they call foul and want America to rally behind their Constitutional rights.
I say stand up and take it on the chin. These polygamists have created the fiasco they're now complaining about. They take a grenade and pull the pin and wonder why there is an explosion.
This is Scott.
401 children.
ReplyDeleteI hope that the Texas officials are
prepared to deal with this.As much as I oppose Warren,and current Flds practices,I can't help but feel this was overkill.
Relative of Flds in Eldorado.
Why haven't they issued an Amber Alert for the girl?????
ReplyDeleteThe high-handed action of removing 401 children on the basis of one
ReplyDeletealleged telephone call is absolutely an indication of the
way our society is going. I cannot
believe that all 401 children immediately became at risk and needed to be removed from their parents, especially their mothers.
This should have been handled in a much more controlled manner with a dialog with the people there--there is no indication they made ANY ATTEMPT whatsoever to do that.
Investigating each one at a time is the way to go--now Texas can pay to take care of 401 children, 401 lawyers(one for each child) 401
guardian at litems(one for each child), not to mention the expected lawsuits from parents and others--what a bonus for a ambulance-chasing attorneys. In addition they can handle the costs for psychiatric and psycological evaluations for each and every one. In addition they pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. for 401 children and their parents. I cannot be convinced that those children were in danger of immediate harm, especially those under 12 years of age--leave them alone, at least for now. Investigate the obvious cases and do it in a controlled and structured manner. What a fiasco!
These people have been commiting incest with little girls who are barely evern teenagers. I really hope the police get these girls away from all tose sick pedifiles!
ReplyDeleteIt's disturbing to separate ALL of them from their parents and home. ONE phone call or allegation and boom, 401 children taken from their parents.
ReplyDelete-fax
Anon@ 8:25
ReplyDeleteHow much evidence do you have that all and every parent in the place was committing incest, that every man was raping 15 year olds? If you have all that evidence than I'll be glad to listen your well rounded fifth grade spelling errors and try to assimilate your most profound points.
Not every parent has to be committing a crime. Any child around any perpetrator of this sort should be removed from this situation. Obviously the FLDS aren't going to do a damn thing about it so the state has to.
ReplyDeleteAnd as to people not believing this was done on a referral. SO WHAT. These people came to this state on a lie, saying the land was to be a hunting retreat, who cares if this raid was carried out on a lie?
(I'm not religious nor moral, so I don't want to hear 'two wrongs don't make a right)
hey muscogeean,
ReplyDeletewhere is El Dorado anyway? I've never heard of the place.
looks like the Polyg Plants are out in force.
you guys really ought to knock it off, you're embarrassing yourselves.
keep sweet eldorado
stg
(oh and my name's not Scott either...LOL)
Anon@ 8:25-
ReplyDeleteStupid point.
Fax-
Most children are not separated from their mothers in this ordeal as the media has told you. Many mothers/wifes, even though they've been cleared to leave, have stayed to help with the children. You people act as through they've been herded up and cast out into the cruel sinful world to die. give me a break. They're being cared for fine until the decisions have been made as to their future.
I am sure the vast majority of them will be returned to their families with no long-term damage done. I'm sure any mother/wife who yearns for her children can go out and comfort them wherever they are.
First they tried to cry about their constitutional rights. Now they've switched gears and whine and cry about the poor children. What's the next tactic for polygamy supporters to gain the publics support? Here's a clue- QUIT BREAKING THE LAW BY MARRYING UNDERAGE GIRLS OFF TO OLD MEN.
Look at Hamish people. Extreme sheltered life also but they don't break the law purposely and thus don't have police storming their communities. Cause..... and then effect. Quite simple.
This is Scott.
"Concerned from the UK"
ReplyDeleteApparently not too concerned and really quite arrogant.
But then I wouldn't expect too much humility or humanity from someone who seems so blase about the welfare of women and children.
"Laissez faire" is not an acceptable course of action when the abuses of an organization against its members are so well documented, as in this case.
For all your "concern" you seem to have missed the last few decades in the history of the FLDS.
I have a question-I haven't seen it mentioned [or missed it]. Are ALL marriages, births and deaths registered with the various city, county and/or state agencies where the FLDS communities live?
ReplyDeleteOr are they 'private papers' kept only by church officials? Or neither? It seems that with all the moving around [voluntarilly or otherwise]people could just fall thru the cracks and no one would even know if they were alive or dead.
--MC--
for jimd 4/07/2008 7:49 AM
ReplyDeleteGo ahead, look into the teachings of the Baptist churches and search them. I'm Baptist and by all means if there's something going on that needs the attention of the law bring in the troops and search warrents. Can the FLDS on the YFZ Ranch say the same?
Also people there is no such thing as true freedom. True freedom would cause chaos in the world. We do need laws. We have always been free to believe in whatever and whoever. I don't think it's about religion at all. The actions of some of the FLDS members are what's attracting the attention of the state. If there is a cry for help from within the ranch then the police have to investigate. Why argue that? It's nice to know that the police are doing there jobs and if people need help they're getting it. If the FLDS on the ranch have nothing to hide then why make this harder than it already is. I say step aside and let the search go on which they seem to be doing. If nothing is found to be unlawful then the FLDS members can get back to their normal lives all the faster. This has to be hard on the FLDS families but if the police have reason to believe and they can actually go in and find accusers who are hurting the innocent then job well done. I hope the families understand that this is not to tear apart a religion or families, it's to protect the innocent which I would hope people would be thankful for.
A hint for all you FLDS bloggers out there:
ReplyDeleteIf you are going to renounce your religion in your blog entry, it would be much more believable if you would drop words like "apostate" and use spell check.
For annon 4/07/2008 7:45 PM
ReplyDeleteA blog is just that, a place for opinions and discussion about whoever, whenever and whatever so maybe you're the one who needs to go elsewhere. I've always found it funny when someone says we should be doing this or that to help out others when they're not doing it themselves and I assume you're not or you would have given us some details about what you're involved in doing. Why don't you let us know what ideas you have and how you're going to deliver them and we'll decide if it's something we want to contribute to. Easier said than done, right? But I commend you if you do follow through.
Just a question for those in the area of ElDorado: What are the GPS coordinates of the temple there?
ReplyDeleteI've read through all of the comments and one of the things that keeps being rehashed is how wrong it is for CPS to pull children from their parents during the investigation - I don't know about TX, but here in FL it's standard that if there is a threat to the child(ren) that is deemed to be credible and eminent they remove the children immediately. Perhaps they are worried that if the children aren't removed some of them will disappear to other compounds?
ReplyDeleteNot all the children at the ranch have their mother there. My own brother had to send a wife to CC, but her child stayed at the ranch. Something else fishy is going on. Why the imbalance in male/female ratio among the children? It is either (1) Boys are sent away from their parents and raised elsewhere, such as with presently unworthy members in CC, or (2) the females are taken from unworthy families in CC and moved to YFZ, or (3) both.
ReplyDeleteThis just proves there is a God! HAHAHAHHAHAHA! Finally something will be done about these non-tax paying perverts.
ReplyDeleteBrenda
Brenda,
ReplyDeletethey're not perverts
nor do they not pay their taxes
....or are you talking about something else???
keep sweet eldorado,
stg
The least we can do is be slow to judge and quick to forgive.
ReplyDeleteIITMOC
Brenda, why do you accuse them of not paying taxes? I always did when I was a polyg. (and I wasn't a pervert, thank you very much)
ReplyDeleteThey pulled the children away from their parents so the kids could talk openly if they wished about abuse and other things. A child isn't going to talk in front of a parent. Use some sense! I hope that the kids are returned if no abuse is found after the hearing in 14 days. I think they need to leave all the kids together and not start putting them in foster care until it is proven their is abuse for that child. These children know nothing of the outside world and need to be able to keep their customary dress and religion. No public school as this is not something they would know about. We outsiders need to be very diligent in letting the kids lead as normal of life that they know of as possible. We are the ones that need to learn their culture and try to allow them to keep it. We outsiders need to understand that these American children know nothing of the outside world and are very afraid of us. It would be similar of the Taliban and their rule for these kids. Go slow and treat the children and woman with respect. How they are treated is what will remain with these people for the rest of their life.
ReplyDelete"Go slow and treat the children and woman with respect. How they are treated is what will remain with these people for the rest of their life."
ReplyDeletethis for the win!!!
MC - others may know better then I, but from my reading you're correct in stating that some people simply fall through the cracks, especially when it comes to births. Some of the autobiography's I've read refer to the fact that some of the children don't have birth certificates, and obviously plural marriages don't have marriage certificates.
ReplyDeleteMy mother grew up on an Indian reservation in OK, through the time I was born (70s) it wasn't uncommon for someone not to have a birth certificate, don't know about the last 3 decades though.
IITMOC; check your email!!
ReplyDeleteWT
4/06/2008 1:37 PM
ReplyDeletehey anonymous sourpuss,you really don't know Uncle Duff or the Bistlines.
granted, we like to do a little "recreational bitchin" as uncle fizz likes to call it, but we got better things than your Barlows to have fun "bitchin" about.
and what's wrong with stirrin up the blog when things get slow. sheesh! whatta Grump.
Anon 1:37 I'm not a Barlow. I know how you guys are enamored and obsessed with Barlows. Sorry to dissapoint.
ReplyDeleteI think your the one "obsessed with Barlows." cause what I said was "your Barlows", not you Barlows. I don't think you know anything about "us" that your squirrelly little plig buddies didn't tell ya. :}
ReplyDeletesides that we got nothing against Barlows in general.
Uncaduff, you're funny
ReplyDeleteYou do realize the whole world is now watching whats going on with FLDS people so your now officallly speaking for your kind even if you dont want to. What you say is now is how the world will see your people for the next 50 years.
ReplyDelete** Side bar -Barlows and Bistlines??? Sounds like the Hatfields and McCoys right down to the marryin'cousins and the like
No but really please elaborate .I dont know the history and would like to learn what your beef is with each other or lack of beef is if that is the case.
there is no issue, somebody's got a burr under there tail.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Barlow. I know how you guys are enamored and obsessed with Barlows. Sorry to dissapoint.
ReplyDelete4/08/2008 1:43 PM
oh, your a Jeffs now huh?
Is there any possibility that the 16 year old girl they are searching for has been sent to Bountiful?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sltrib.com/ci_8823648
ReplyDeleteTake a look at this news item this is possibly the girl. The picture was from Saturday.
Would if the FLDS got a call from someone in a neighboring town that they needed to be rescued because they were pregnant and was'nt married,so the FLDS went into the neighboring town and gathered up all the children and women and took them to the ranch and got custody of the children because their society was teaching immorality on the TV and the Radio and Music. God is watching get ready. He is silent notes taking.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why people think this is over kill on the State's side. If one girl, any girl, called to claim abuse and no one would do anything in her community to help her, then why wouldn't the state of Texas take ALL the children to make sure that they are not in harms way like the caller? The state of Texas doesn't do this just for fun. Looking at the FACTS - Warren in jail for assisting in child rape and marrying underage girls...why WOULDN'T the state make sure ALL children are safe after receiving a call by some young girl that professes to be a child bride that is beaten? If one is in harms way and nothing is being done by anyone around her, then why would the state think that any other children are safe? The Department Of Children and family services has an obligation to make sure the children are safe. If they are, the state will return them sooner than later. But it is their absolute obligation to make sure that no children are being harmed. It's not persecution toward the FLDS..stop having child brides..the FACTS show this is going on. It is not rumor. THESE ARE FACTS! I would much rather have my child taken from me if someone in my family said that another child was abused and no one was doing anything to stop the abuse or report it.
ReplyDeleteGet over yourselves with the "oh we're being persecuted" line. Children all over are taken due to abuse for the children's best interests. Hush hush doesn't work anymore like back in the day when no one would talk about it.
GO STATE OF TEXAS! Do the job you are supposed to and make sure children are safe.
Man, you people need to do some research. This is a huge problem. These "men" defraud the government and raise their children with our tax dollars. Don't some of wonder how many of these women are collecting welfare? How do you think theses "families" amass their fortunes? How do they build these communities? With child labor and government welfare. The titillating sexual details are just part of the abuse. Young boys are forced into labor without pay from very young ages. As they grow up and become threats to the polygamist lifestyle of the older patriarchs, they are forced out of the community.
ReplyDeleteHey, while the authorities are checking out the very real abuse, they should also audit all tax returns and welfare claims!
You people who support this are just ignorant!
A prayer.
ReplyDeleteHoly Father, thou who dost see the hearts of all, unto thee I pray for those of the YFZ Ranch, and also for we who watch and participate, that we may not compound their troubles.
Holy Father, I pray that thou wilt be with the children in their distress, that thou wilt comfort them, that they will know that they are loved and that they will not take these things to their own hurt.
I pray that they shall have good and understanding guardians and counselors, and not people with their own social agenda. That they be allowed to stay together, at least in their family groups.
I pray that they will not become pawns in the hands of state regulators, but that they will be able to return to loving fathers and mothers where no wrong is found to have occured.
I pray for the people in positions of power and authority, that they may keep truth and justice on the top line, that they will be sensitive to the Faith of these souls, that they will not allow human fobiles to mar their judgements and investigations.
I pray that their methods shall be just the same as if these people were their own families.
I pray that the general public who observe but have not all the facts shall not condemn them simply because they are different and their is much inuendo.
I pray for the mothers, who must at this time be distraught, whose pains must be great, and I pray that they shall be able to learn whatever it is they need to learn at this time. That they find the balance between respect for their husbands and standing up when they think something is wrong. I thank them father, that they have the faith to live their religion, in a world where it is not cool to be different, yet I also pray that they shall use this situation for their growth. Surley young women need goodly men to guide and even lead them, and a goodly woman shall make a simple man much better. I pray that their sins be few, but that they shall repent where they need to.
I pray for the men and brethren, that the men shall through this shake up become more honorable men, and that the brethren shall look to their ways and uses of their positions and power. That if injustice or sins have been committed, that they shall be addressed ina a straightforward manner. While it is not for us to tell another culture what to do, their is that which is ideal, and then degrees of separation from it.
While there may be times that a younger sister can be joined to an older brother, it is not the norm, but the exception to the norm. I pray that this lesson be learned by these people.
I pray that they learn to feel the difference between a marriage confirmed by the spirit of God, and one made only of the mind of man,(and woman) and that ordinances cannot make a union more this way or that. I pray that sincere seekers of Godliness will desist from any union that is not confirmed of the spirit, and I pray that religions people everywhere will cease to confuse warm fuzzy feelings and emotions with thy spirit.
I pray for the brethren, that they might use this time to kneel in humble prayer, they they might humble themsleves before thee Oh God, and that they might continue to believe in thee, whom I know, that they shall through greater faith and humility realize thee the more, that those misconceptions of religiosity that are culturally ingrained in them be rooted out, that Truth will be their ideal, and not necesssarily tradition.
I know father, that they are an isolated people, that persecution and their upbringings have narrowed their understandings. I pray that they shall hold fast to the light they have, while they grow and obtain a broader view of thy work upon the earth, that they shall not cease from their walk of Faith, but that this shall increase their righteousness before thee.
I pray for the investigators and administrators and prosecutors, that they shall understand that this is cultural, that if we as judges are to condemn, we must take into account the state of mind and the beliefs of individuals we investigate. I pray that we shall supply more counsellors than condemnors.
But who is qualified to counsel these souls? Who shall repsect their walk in life, their faith, and then reach into their minds to point out where changes need to be made.
I pray for these people father, whom the world has hated, if not the present world, then at least in times past their forefathers who were hated, which caused them to turn inwards and reject all the world.
I thank them and thee for their faith, that they run not to the same worldliness and excess of degrading dress, music, eating, and entertainment, and that they seek to live as they believe thou Oh God would have them live, and I pray that these good things shall not cease among them, that their community shall continue in our world and that we all may be the better for these things.
I pray that their leaders and brethren shall repent or learn where ever they stand in need of the same, that they shall see that all men have need to repent when they ere, that we all need to eat grass for a time, that they shall rebuild their lives in greater light of truth, that their young men shall be strong and grow up as honest and hard workers, contributors, that they may learn to share their faith in the outside world.
I pray that their mothers, sisters and daughters shall grow in womanhood, grace and power, that their minds shall be quick of understanding, and that they may form a counsel of the sisterhood, to offer the sisters views to the brethren, especially on such things of importance as youthful marriages to much much older brethren, for it sounds as though this would provide much needed balance.
I thank thee father for these souls, for their lives, for their faith, efforts and hopes, for their sepratation from the ways of worldliness, for the world and its religions have become such monocultures of piety, yet the world continues down hill, thus our religions cannot know thee, and do not seek to build thy kingdom.
May we who seek thee find thee and so become at one with thee Oh Holy Father.
I pray these things Father, in the name of him whom we hold as our Lord, amongst Lords, even Jesus the Christ.
Amen.
Bro B
Bro B. I don't think it is right to be so one sided in a prayer. Anytime I pray, I pray that the right thing happen. Not that people realize this is cultural. If there is a wrong there is a wrong. If there is no wrong there is no wrong. If there is a right, there is a right. If there is no right, there is no right. I pray that justice be had against any injustice. Both those separated from family and justice for those who committed any crime if there were any. I don't think wishing for what you believe is what prayer is for. Prayer is for asking that God's will be done whether it is what you believe or not.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure lessons will be learned on both sides of this issue. The first legal hearing on this case was today. Everyone is guilty of jumping to conclusions. Sometimes is best to put of a decision one way or another as long as possible. It gives you plenty of time to hear both sides of an argument and come to a logical conclusion when facts are known.
Everyone has biased opinions, including me. Growing up in TX I'm pretty hardcore protestant and I'll be the first to admit I don't like these people or what I think they stand for. However in this case I have no idea. Bias in favor of these people must be looked at carefully as well.
Remember 1,000 people can see this situation in 1,000 different ways.
Thank you, Bro B!! That was beautiful.
ReplyDeleteDear Lord,
ReplyDeleteBLESS ALL ISRAEL
AMEN !!
hat do I do if I want to donate a professional service?
ReplyDeleteWe are currently not accepting offers for professional services. However, if you would like to provide your contact information you may contact the community engagement staff at: communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us.
What if I want to volunteer?
If you are interested in volunteering, you may contact the community engagement staff at communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us. Please be specific in your e-mail regarding how you are willing to help. We will respond regarding how to proceed.
What if I want to donate a household item, toys, etc.?
We are still assessing their needs and though we do not need donations at this time, we are keeping a list of offers for when the need arises. If you would like to add your name to the list, please send your contact information and the item(s) you wish to donate to communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us.
What if I want to be a foster/adoptive parent and I live in Texas?
At this time we are not in need of foster or adoptive placements for the children removed in Eldorado. However, Texas is always in need of foster and adoptive families to assist with children who have endured abuse or neglect.
Please review the steps to become a foster or adoptive family in our “Get Started” section of our web site. There, you will find an overview of the foster/adopt program, the steps involved, and the requirements to become a foster or adoptive family. You may also read what others say about foster care and adoption at our “Success Stories.”
What if I want to be a foster/adoptive parent and I do not live in Texas?
At this time we are not in need of foster or adoptive placements for the children removed in Eldorado. The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services will contact child placing agencies in other states should foster placement outside of Texas become necessary. If you are a licensed foster parent living in another state and would like to have a Texas child placed with you, please contact the child placing agency with whom you are licensed.
Please note that if you are interested in a Texas child waiting for foster placement or adoption, and not currently licensed, we encourage you to get approved to foster/adopt within your state first. Please visit the web site for links to information regarding your state.
I was once involved with FLDS or have some personal experience with religious sects. Do you need my help?
Although there is not a current need for individuals with FLDS experience, we are accepting contact information for future use if needed. You may contact the community engagement staff at: communityengagement@dfps.state.tx.us.
"...especially on such things of importance as youthful marriages to much much older brethren... "
ReplyDeleteBro B
Like what?
keep sweet eldorado
stg
I pray that no girl will ever be forced to marry her stepdad, father, cousin or uncle.
ReplyDeleteI pray that no girl will ever be forced to have sex with a digusting man twice or triple her age.
I pray that children will get the education that is a right for all Americans. That each child will have the intelligence, confindence and independence to make their own decisions.
What is the problem with impregnating the women of biological age? Most historians say the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary at about age 12 - how could she be of conscious age. And many Historians claim one of Muhammed's wives was 9 years old! It is just cultural diveristy, that is all.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is the laws and culture of the nation that the FLDS are living in. It has always been the policy of God's people throughout bible history and since to adhere to the laws of the country in which they dwell unless those laws interfere with the direct commands from God. Refer to Daniel, Three Hebrews, Abraham etc. The FLDS have no scriptural foundation for a commandment to marry girls underage, yet they insist upon doing it. They were told by warren's father who was the leader before warren that they were to comply with the law prohibiting marriages under 17 created by Utah in 1998-2000. Why have they refused to comply with this law? It is this and this only that is the cause of their present difficulties, both in Texas and Short Creek. It will be the cause of their demise if they persist in the practice. There is nothing wrong doctrinally or otherwise, with waiting until a girl is 18 to marry her.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the problem with impregnating the women of biological age? Most historians say the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary at about age 12 - how could she be of conscious age. And many Historians claim one of Muhammed's wives was 9 years old! It is just cultural diveristy, that is all.
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:25pm - you're absolutely right! The attorneys should use your statement as their defense.
Anon 9:25,
ReplyDeleteAs much as it fascinates me to read the FLDS posts, it makes me sad. I'm not saying that to amount to anything you have to be educated, but it does help to get the point accross better ("cultural diveristy"??).
You are just...backwards...in many ways.
These FLDS men are just old perverts hiding behind their perverse fundamentalist
ReplyDeleteview of scriptures that were never intended to be twisted into such a sick way of life. These women and young girls have no way out of this ridiculous life because they would not be able to leave without their children. They also make it impossible for people to leave because they wouldn't have any means of supporting themselves. Also if people grow up in this brainwashing enviroment their whole lives they believe that it is normal or right(its not their fault). I hope those jackhamers are going right for that temple, better yet bring in the wrecking ball.
Anon 10:54,
ReplyDeleteEverything you say is right on. The way these older men try to come across as spiritual giants and make these ladies afraid of anything outside of them. They take all their choices away by denying them of a decent education, then impregnate them before they can form a mind of their own.
I think it's right that these women have been set free, if only for a time. They can see that people on the outside can be really good and do want to help. If nothing else, it will cause them to challenge all the bull they've been fed their whole lives.
Wrecking ball? Might as well, it is ruined for the FLDS purposes. It has been desecrated and God will not come in it.
ReplyDeleteI TOTALLY AGREE THAT THIS COMPUND IS FOR DIRTY OLD MEN TO GET THERE ROCKS OFF WITH YOUNG TEENAGE GIRLS AND TRY TO CONTROL THERE LIVES. THEY ARE JUST LIKE PAEDOPHILES ( EXCEPT A PAEDOPHILE WOULD BE ARRESSTED AND PUT IN JAIL ) THEY THINK ITS THERE GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO RAPE YOUNG GIRLS. ASK ANY 15-16YR OLD IF THEY WOULD WANT SEX WITH SOME 52 YR UGLY OLD MAN WHO HAS OTHER WIVES AND KIDS. THEY ARE SO SICK SICK SICK.
ReplyDeleteYou are just...backwards...in many ways.
ReplyDeleteAnd you are not, I suppose. Why is it that our punctuation has you so bothered? And, it's not even necessarily that we CAN'T spell, it's sometimes that we cannot control our keyboards. Perhaps that makes us backward. But, can you build a chicken coop? Survive without your big city networks? We would all like to know just exactly how well educated YOU are and where that may or may NOT have gotten you in life.
Anon 5:45,
ReplyDeletePlease explain
Yes, I'd like to hear that explained as well. I'm also curious about how that temple is laid out. For instance, is it similar to a christian church, with a main gathering area, and perhaps prayer rooms, offices? I think someone else asked what the smaller building next to it is used for, but no one answered. It just seems very, very large to me, so I'm curious. It would be a shame if it really is true that they'd choose to tear it down after all the work to build it just because it's been entered by outsiders.
ReplyDeleteSo sad. The whole thing is so sad.
If there was a God that came in it before, I don't believe they were hearing the right messages from him. For instance to have children bear children. Yeah I don't believe ANY God would pass that message along.
ReplyDeleteOh, and that all the people on the outside of the FLDS are awful people. Funny how hundreds and hundreds of us awful people on the outside have volunteered to represent the FLDS children for FREE so that each and everyone can be properly represented.
Wow..us bad bad outsiders. Why would we volunteer our time if we're all so incredibly awful?
I am interested in a valuation of the structural property that was developed on this site. It would be very interesting to have an appraisal of the property since there are some serious questions about the funding sources. I just read that the Department of Defense indirectly may have been at least one source.
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you why us outsiders are still so awful.
ReplyDeleteWe're trying to get all of them on drugs and cussing like the rest of us. We always need more apostates here on the outside, you know. More people to listen to our hanky-panky music and more people to eat our filthy food.
We also want to have more sex with those gals too. Isn't that how the men scare them into staying where they are?
Funny how they use sex to scare them.....hmmmm.
I'm outraged at some of the things I'm hearing and I think most of us on the outside feel the same.
ReplyDeleteMy hope is that those who are responsible for any wrong going on inside the compound are held to account - just like those of us on the outside.
There are so many people doing their best to help the women and children.
Those who haven't had any experience with the outside world may be pleasantly surprised by the generousity and kindness they find.
I agree with Native Texan. If there are wrongs they need righted. Prosecute if the law has been broken. But do not put out these allegations such as the one about the DOD being a part of this. I imagine this allegation comes from the fact that the FLDS members have a legitimate business that fills contracts for the DOD just as any contracting manufacturer would. Anyone close to that type of business knows these are usually lucrative accounts. That the business turns a lot of money into the FLDS coffers is true as well but the owners and employees are agreeable so what? Aren't they expressing their American liberty?
ReplyDeletePeople that are willing to spread this type of allegation without investigation are undoing the work of hundreds that are volunteering and showing the FLDS what great guys the 'outside world' are.
I find all of this very sad. I feel bad that the children were taken away from their mothers. I find it sick that children are married at 14, 15, 16 and 17. If you want to practice this (illegal) "religion", then knock yourself out. But let the kids be kids, please. If they decide at 18 they want to "marry", then fine. But until then, they are children. I don't agree with this whole Poligomy thing, but that isn't what the problem is here. The problem is that these sick men are hiding the sexual abuse behind their religion (how about that marriage bed in the church? Those sickos just can't wait to get in the pants of these poor teen girls). Why can't the mothers stand up for their children? Maybe they should be charge with abuse or endangerment as well? They know what's going on. I could never allow my child do go through something like that. I was listening to the news last night and ther was a woman (I can't remember her name) on there defending all of this. She looked so cracked out and like everything was rehearsed. Not only that, but she didn't sound very educated. I feel sorry for the children involved in all of this. I pray that justice is served for the children.
ReplyDeleteI read about half the posts on here before I had to scroll downa nd leave a comment...
ReplyDeleteI cannot believe that there are so many posters who think it fine for girls under the age of 16 to be raped and impregnanted by these dirty old men that as one poster rightly wrote - are using religion to hide the fact that they are paedophiles!
Yes it is a very delicate situation, given that the children are brainwashed into believing that the outside world is evil and I pray that this will not do them more harm than good but at the end of the day, I couldnt care less whther the call was a hoax because it has led to these poor children being saved.
Some say that at 16, the girls are choosing to marry and have sex and bear children - what bull! Their minds have been manipulated in to thinking that is what they need to do. Something needs to be done, before these girls grow into women and begin to offer up their children on a plate for dirty perverts, which is what they are.
Polygamy is a sad, vindictive and poor excuse for a deeper running malicious intent.
Its 2008 - get with it!!!!
CC
It's not about polygamy.
ReplyDeleteIt's about human rights violations and due process. What makes this country great is the fact that we all agree upon laws that we agree are for the common good, then we follow these laws.
If a few of your neighbors abused their children and the government came and took away all of the children on the block including yours, you likely wouldn't be saying you deserved it.
People have a right to live differently, if they break laws they need to be prosecuted within due process.
What I read here is not prosecution but persecution. Note the important difference.
As a final note, until you see evidence of all these crimes allegedly committed, stop. Just stop propogating rumors for goodness sake. Crimes have been committed I am sure and more will come out, but unless you have a valid source, stop spewing propoganda that is harmful to others.
Or just burn the witches and anyone else who is different than you before you get to know them and can judge rationally. It's really up to you I guess.
I would just like to know how these men are able to financially support so many children. Are any on welfare or child support? If they are, then it is the state of Texas' business. If they aren't, and it is true that the child brides are older, then we should leave them alone.
ReplyDeleteHow unjust and uncouth. I grew up in the Colorado City Sect., and have been mortified at the abuse and injustice that Warren Jeffs has had to endure at the hand of "The Law". This land was carved by the hands of men whom at that time were classified as extremists, religious outcasts. What has this country come to that they feel they have the "Right" to force beliefs upon anyone. Seeing something as wrong for you does not make it wrong for another. As I said before I grew up and traveled various communities that were under the direction of Warren Jeffs, and not once did I see abuse. Abuse has many different faces and I refer to all. Mental and physical abuse are dealt with sternly in that religious sect. A man can loose his family or rights to a family if he is physically, mentally, or verbally abusive. Any barrel will have it's rotten apples, but when they are discovered they are turned over to the proper authorities, to be dealt with by the law of the land, or under the supervision of the church if the infraction was not under the jurisdiction of the law.
ReplyDeleteHow dare the media twist and manipulate the facts to create a false and tantalizing story...what ever happened to reporting the facts. New has become a melting pot of deceit and lucrative scams. The reason no one will speak to the media, from this sect., is the fact they know their testimony or opinions will be edited, misquoted, rapped, and sodomized to the fullest extent that can be called the disgusting art of journalism. What happened to the freedoms that this country was founded on? Why have we resorted to tormenting those who choose to live a more simple life, or revert to religious beliefs that are not socially accepted. Who are we as a country to judge, them when we constantly try to separate ourselves from the fact that we are all what makes this land what it is...
The polygamous sect led by Warren Jeffs, though I am no longer a member by my choice, is one of the most honest and forthright religious sects to grace this time. Even the Mormon and Catholic religions who have grown to be the power houses in this fight for attendance, have bastardized their beliefs to become more appealing. Why pick on a small sect. simply because in the larger picture, they have chosen to stand by their beliefs.
Who is forcing beliefs on anyone? The FLDS have chosen to violate a law that they knew was on the books. A law that is not supported by doctrine within their own professed belief system. They call themselves fundamentalists but this underage marriage idea has no roots in fundamental Mormonism. It has materialized in the last decade or so. How fundamentalist is that? Their own leaders have in the past decried the act of marrying underage girls. How can you in good conscience support this?
ReplyDeleteThis another case of being considered guilty before it has been proven.There has been no proof offered except an anonymous call from a person they can not even locate.I have seen that now some of the kids have been moved to Cal Farleys Boys Ranch in the Texas panhandle.This place abused me and many others repeatedly some 30 + years ago.Where was the state then?They would not listen to us.But now a call does it.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone thought about the danger posed to those kids by the cops busting in there like the Marines,heavily armed as they say.
Until a court of law PROVES that these people are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt then they have a right to be secure in their homes and families.THEY ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
This so absurd and proof of a runaway judicial system that is for sale to the highest bidder.This country is fast slipping into a fascist state and you hipocrates only help it along.How would you feel if it were you or your lifestyle being accused?Give these people the benefit of the doubt until something is proven...or does your Cristian teachings prohibit it.
American People scream about freedom until they see real freedom and then it scares the hell out of em....
Okay, I'm probably going to be very unpopular for my take on this issue, but please bear with me and hear me out. My real concern about this whole drama is regarding civil liberties. To me, this entire incident and the fallout beginning to occur has sounded awfully fishy. I hope that more of us will examine this situation from all angles before we form a quick opinion and file it away. This historical event could very well have ramifications for all of our futures, and the very survival of this country.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you who may not be aware, authorities raided the 1,700 acre Yearning for Zion Ranch in West Texas on April 3rd, allegedly as the result of a call from , a 16 year old girl who claimed to be living in the compound, married to an older man who physically and sexually abused her. Interestingly enough, although police burst in with guns and S.W.A.T. gear, taking 416 children and their mothers captive, no one has been able to locate this caller. Indeed, no one has even been found who knows her or has ever heard of her before.
But let's even look past that. Let's play devil's advocate for a while. Let's assume that this girl does exist and let's assume that her accusations and claims are valid. Wouldn't you send CPS investigators to the home in an effort to determine the facts? Why would a massive police raid ensue, and why would 416 children be forcibly taken away from their mothers in buses? The mothers and children were kept apart, and all cell phones were confiscated, so that no one could contact anyone else.
And this is the point that REALLY bugs me. WHY would you raid the entire community? If CPS received a call from anywhere else, would police raid the entire community of Cedar Park, Plano, Bethesda, or Carmel because of one report from one family? How can even the original family be considered guilty without a proper, formal investigation, much less the entire community?
Additionally, comments from both Representative Harvey Hildebran and Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott certainly point to at least the possibility that this was a premeditated set-up, based on fabricated information.
Although officials originally stated that the raid had absolutely nothing to do with polygamy [most notably, Darrell Azar of the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (TDFPS)], Hildebran's statements indicate the exact opposite. "We've been fighting this for awhile, trying to do something about it," Mr. Hildebran said. "But we needed a complaint. You can't just say: 'Golly, I can't get into that ranch, I bet you lots of awful stuff is going on in there.' " Mr. Hildebran said that based on recent conversations with law enforcement officials, they had been poised to respond if and when a cry for help came. "There was some anticipation, at least some preparation," Mr. Hildebran said. Hmmm, do you mean someone might have been a little trigger happy, Mr. Hildebran?
Earlier Thursday, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said on CNN's "American Morning" that "the case really doesn't hinge upon that particular 16-year-old." He said once investigators could "in good faith... go into the compound and determine whether or not there was any kind of wrongdoing, the case is on its own after that." But, he said, "It's our belief that these children who are under the age of 17 have engaged in sex with older men, which is a violation of Texas law, which is also a potential violation of the bigamy laws. So yes, we do believe we have information that will be substantiated in court that will show there has been sexual assault as well as bigamy."
So, then, sirs, it really is about polygamy and religious beliefs? But didn't you say that it wasn't? What about following proper procedures? The identity of this person (most articles simply refer to her as a 16 year old, and very few actually even have her name) and her original call aren't even the basis for the case? Well, then, what was your basis for the raid?
Oh, but, wait, it gets so much better. Personal property, such as hard drives from computers, were immediately taken. If your neighbor was accused of child abuse, would it be okay for them to walk over to your house, next door, force themselves in, take your cell phone, take the hard drives from your computers, or anything else of yours, for that matter, and separate you from your children for what has already been two weeks? Oh, but don't let me forget. Your children would also be forced to undergo blood tests, regardless of how you or they might feel about it.
And today, April 17th, the latest chapter has started to unfold: the issue of the legal proceedings themselves. We appear to have completely ignored and violated due process during the haste of separating these families and rushing the children off to foster homes. Because each of the children are being represented by a different attorney (many of them volunteers, at that) and because of the small size of the courthouse, much of this has been viewed by live video feed. And it appears as though possibly many of the lawyers, children, and parents are in different rooms. I am a little unclear on this detail, however. According to the NY Times, "Because more than 350 lawyers are involved in the case, many of them on a voluntary basis, the county courthouse was too small to accommodate them and the members of the church who wanted to attend the hearing. That is why the live video feed was set up at the nearby city hall." Although Judge Barbara Walther of Tom Green County apparently easily justified signing an emergency order to give the state custody of the children, she apparently isn't very concerned about the rights of the children or their families, or to determine probably cause, or to find time to let each case be reviewed individually. According to CNN, "Of Thursday's hearing, [attorney Damiane Banieh] said, 'I found it to be laborious. They were unable to get down to the real issue as to whether or not they had probable cause to go in and get these kids. Attorneys were objecting to everything, and rightfully so. There were lots of motions filed,' Banieh said. 'We didn't have an opportunity, one by one, to look at them and have an opportunity to file written responses. The other thing I had a serious problem with is... no parents, to my knowledge, received a copy of the original petition for emergency removal. You are supposed to know why your children are removed; and if you don't know why your children were removed, how are you supposed to prepare your lawyer to come in 14 days [later] and defend you?' " As per the New York Times, "because of the numbers of the children, parents, lawyers, and state officials involved, some lawyers said they expect all sides to make group arguments, rather than individual ones. While this may sound convenient, and expedient, that is really an insidious illusion. Why should the cases of individual families be potentially compromised simply because lawmakers decided to abuse their authority, arrogantly opting to springboard from one very questionable allegation into a massive illegal search and seizure against an entire community?
As I said, as a starting point, I was willing to play devil's advocate and give the benefit of the doubt that the allegations might be true. But what if I'm wrong, and my concern that this was a staged set-up by certain lawmakers is actually true? The members of the religious community confide that the remote ranch, with its log cabin-style houses and white temple, is simply a refuge from a hostile and sinful world.
This appears to have been corroborated by at least some of the attorneys and members of the police force who participated in the raid. "Two Houston, Texas, attorneys representing children removed from the Eldorado ranch visited it Thursday afternoon, saying they wanted to see whether it was a clean and safe environment, because the state had alleged it was not. 'It was a very clean place,' said attorney Jason Castraneda, who represents a 5-year-old. Members make their own milk and cheese, he said, and the ranch is "almost like a little city.' Attorney Damiane Banieh, who represents a 2-year-old, said she did not see evidence that the children were in an unhealthy environment. She described the men at the ranch as cordial, despite the circumstances."
I want to be clear that I am in no way saying that I have a grasp on the compound's way of life and that I am not sweeping the possibility of child abuse or sex abuse under the rug. If that call was legitimate (Google, is there even a recording of it in existence? Apparently not...) and not a prank call from a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman, (ARREST UPDATE!) then the crimes need to be addressed and the problems need to be solved. But from everything that I have witnessed, the real crimes are by the State of Texas and the local Eldorado and Green County officials. Officials said the community was unclean and unsafe. That appears to not be true. Officials claim to have received a call alleging child sex abuse. That caller is nowhere to be found. Officials claimed the investigations and hearings would be fair. Yet, the violent raid, seizure of property, and abandonment of due process appear to contradict that promise.
When I think of attorney Jason Castraneda's observation that this is a tight community in which neighbors are making milk and cheese, it again reminds me of my earlier reactions. What if the local, state, or federal government decides that they don't like the Amish way of life? This country was born out of a desire and a need to escape religious persecution. But we appear to be experiencing just that. Representatve Harvey Hildebran is quoted as having had issues with this particular community since 2005, and proudly announced how he had been working to change laws in order to "fight this" and "do something about it". That hardly seems like an impartial lawmaker to me. What happens when the government decides that the Amish religion is not conducive to "democracy" or that their way of life is essentially "tax evasion"? Do we invade those "dangerous communities" with our SWAT gear and attack vehicles, as well? What if the government decides that it doesn't like your religion, or mine? Heck, lawmakers and citizens can't even come to terms on whether or not The Ten Commandments can be displayed at public facilities, such as courthouses.
Additionally, it appears that at least one 5 year old handicapped child might have been removed improperly, his special needs ignored, and that children are being told it is child abuse to have your mother hold your hand. Wow. It doesn't really sound as though the authorities who claim to be protecting all of these children actually have taken the needs of the children to heart, does it?
I hope that everyone considers these travesties and these frightening trends for what they are. Undoubtedly, the courts will go above and beyond in their efforts to illustrate any real or imagined crimes emanating from inside the compound. So let's try to look at the other side of the coin, the emerging police state and this violation of civil liberties. Heck, with incidents like this, maybe Bush didn't need the Patriot Act to treat all of us as criminals, guilty until proven innocent?
I thought this blog didn't tolerate long-winded rants
ReplyDeleteGeorge,
ReplyDeleteHave you ever driven by YFZ Ranch?
I live close by and if you do decide to drive by you will see what kind of place you're dealing with. If you hesitate too long, you will be greeted by a guard at the gate, who has been staring at you through his binoculars for the last five miles. In addition, the peremeter is patrolled by guys driving ATVs. Oh, and don't forget the pickup truck on top of the huge dirt mound that is on the lookout on a different side of the ranch. Makes you wonder whether they're keeping people in or out.
They aren't a very hospitable group. It's not like you could ask, "May I speak with Sarah?" and get anywhere.
Also, there are only a few large dormitory-style buildings housing all these folks.
Also, who's to say her name really is "Sarah"?
If I were a young abused woman, I'd give an assumed name and just hope to hell to get out of there.
What motive does she have to come forward? If she does and they send her back, she might have to do some "blood attonement" for all the trouble she caused.
What? You haven't heard about the huge incinerator?
Wake up, George.
Anonymous #1,
ReplyDeleteI originally tried to post a much more abbreviated item, but it was not posted, for some reason. So I went ahead and put the whole thing.
However, based on your and Anonymous #2's reactions, it sounds like you not only needed to read it, but you also need to go back and read it a few times. Let's get a good dialogue going. I don't think either of you have thought this all the way through, or how it impacts your own freedoms, as well as the freedoms of your children, grandchildren, etc.
Anonymous #2,
ReplyDeletePlease listen to yourself. Because you find these people weird and different, you feel the government can come in and raid their homes and take children forcibly away from their mothers.
In other words, if I find your way of life weird, then it will be okay for the government to come in and raid your home, take your family away, and then make their way through your entire street, neighborhood, community?
Do you blame these people for keeping to themselves and having tight security? Hello? They were just raided. Apparently, their paranoia, if you call it that, was well-founded. Did you not read my documentation that the authorities had been looking for an excuse, changing laws, trying to get at them? Would you be a little paranoid if your way of life was being persecuted?
As far as the "Sarah" being afraid, go take a look at the Denver Post and USA Today. There was no recorded 911 call. There were calls made to a sympathetic group in Colorado Springs, and a woman was arrested with Texas Rangers present. Don't be so convinced that "Sarah" exists. Also, Sarah's husband is not and was not even in Texas and hasn't been for some time. And "Sarah's" description of the family she named as her abusers doesn't match the family which she accused. And, given that she named her husband, she certainly couldn't have "lied to protect her identity", as you've claimed.
Now, before we condemn these people for their way of life, let's take a good look at our own society. Look how dysfunctional it is. Look how everyone tries to pass their own sense of morality off on everyone else. Read the news. Every day, you are hearing about 8 year olds having abortions, 9 year olds getting divorces, teen grandmothers. Are you saying that the police need to raid the home of every teenage mother and take her children away, too? Do they need to be brought up on criminal charges.
I am much more away than you are, ma'am, or sir. I think you need to take your own advice.
Your spot on George,
ReplyDeletegood to see some sense over that way.
Bro B
George,
ReplyDeleteHave you read accounts of women and men who used to be within the communtiy?
Turn off CNN, put down your paper, and take some time to do this.
You are oversimplifying.
Your posts are nieve.
I am not a polygamist, but im LDS.
ReplyDeleteNow all of my friends are going to bashtalk the church talking a bunch of non-sence because of a fundamentalist group. I believe these people would love there children just like anyone else would but there has to be some common sence. What the hell are you all thinking. If you want to have a million kids, good for you, but when youre married to someone, youre married for all eternity. Why would you want someone elses sloppy seconds. Man, this guy could be a walking HIV. I hope that one day I find someone super amazing that I can be with for the rest of my life, how are you all going to... Oh nevermind, im not the one who needs to judge, its not my place.. But my prayers go out to the mothers and children.
Anonymous #2,
ReplyDeleteI am not oversimplifying. I am looking at the bigger picture. You are taking your personal reactions to these people and their way of life as justification for what is essentially military action.
Every account which I have read with direct quotes from attorney who HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN on the premises shows that it is not an abusive, unhealthy, unclean environment, and that the members of the community have been cooperative.
Have you read once incident about any violent resistance from them? Heck, I haven't even heard anything about guns.
Have you also considered the damage done to these families over the past couple of weeks, particularly the young children? How many concepts have they been exposed to which they might never have had to face, or, at the very least, not until they were much older? What do you think it is like to live in a calm, peaceful setting, to have it suddenly invaded by a small, violent, scary army and snatched away from your family, questioned, poked, and prodded with a needle? Have you even thought to look past your own prejudice to consider this?
Did you watch the video of the mother who went to hold her young daughter's hand after all of this, only to be told by her daughter that her mom shouldn't do that, as she would get into trouble for child abuse? These children have quite possibly become warped in ways that they never would have become. Even the psychiatrist for the State has stated that traditional foster care would be traumatic for them.
I am not naive. You are the one who is naive. I have said all along that even if there is abuse within this community, their civil liberties were beyond trampled. And if the government can do that with them, they can do it with you. And me. Who's next? The Amish. They're different. Let's go invade all of those communities. Oh, wait. Didn't one of "normal society's" serial killers already do that? Let's try re-examining our own culture and our own failed legal system before we try imposing it on those who are labeled as weird or different because they have a simpler, older lifestyle.
George,
ReplyDeleteDo you mean to tell me that you think a few attorneys who have spent a couple of hours hanging out at the ranch in a post-invaded state has a better perspective on their culture than a person who was raised there? Do you really think the adults would haul off and hit a child in front of outsiders? Do you think one of the older husbands would summon his young bride of 17 for a romantic interlude in front of law enforcement??
Don't pretend to know my predjudice or my perspective. For all you know I came out of there.
Saying that lawyers saw what was going on and then reported back that there was no funny business is comical. You must be a lawyer...lol.
ReplyDeleteKinda like an American celebrity making a diplomatic trip to Africa and sitting down for a meal with a few Africans, then coming back to the USA and telling us that there's no hunger and no AIDS in Africa...
Just because they didn't see it didn't mean it wasn't there! You're getting played, George.
George,
ReplyDeleteIt seems you're ignoring the fact that there was enough evidence for the government to leave with the children and women. This wasn't a vast conspiracy against "different people".
The states of Utah and Arizona have been aware of the problems (physical and sexual abuse, welfare fraud, etc.)within this group for years. I'm sure there was a massive sigh of relief when the FLDS relocated to Eldorado.
Everyone recognizes the fact that this is a bad situation and assimilating into our culture could be a difficult task for them and us. The bottom line is, should we turn a blind eye just because fixing it could be difficult?
Native Texan
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with a lot of what you say but there are a few things in your last post that may help your perspective of the FLDS. First they did not actually relocate to Texas, they just spread out in many directions. The problems in Utah and Arizona did not go away with the creation of the YFZ. There are also FLDS located now in Oregon, Nevada, South Dakota, Colorado and Texas that were not there Six years ago.
Second I wonder if you really mean what you said about assimilating them into 'your' culture. If you did I think that statement rather justifies some of what George is saying. You are right about not turning a blind eye to the abuse, but are you serious about 'your' culture being the best solution for these children? If you are and that is the intent of law enforcement then all the claims about persecution become valid. If this is the 'fix' you are after it is doomed to failure from the start and Texas will learn the same lessons Arizona learned in the 1950's.
Anonymous #2, of course I don't know who you are or anything about you. That assumption is inherent in the title "Anonymous". Perhaps if you had the courage to speak openly, as yourself, that would show true courage, as opposed to defensiveness and prejudice. For all I know, you are Representative Harvey Hildebran, who openly bragged about working to change the law in order to criminalize the group, and jumping at the first chance to raid them. Or you could be Attorney General Greg Abbott, who said that the circumstances of the warrant were irrelevant. Or, for all I know, you were the prank caller claiming to be the apparently fictitious "Sarah".
ReplyDeleteAnonymous #3, I believe you've actually gotten it backwards. So far, this has been a case of "the government says it's there and that they are criminals, so they are."
ReplyDeleteYou are the one who is getting played. And these are the kinds of behaviors which I've been attempting to bring to light regarding this entire situation.
fttc,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Anonymous #2, Anonymous #3, and Native Texan,
ReplyDeleteI think the real issue is that I am the only one (between the 3 of you and me) who actually IS looking at this from all angles. The three of you are all assuming that all of these people are guilty. Right or wrong, you do need to remember that this is the United States of America, which is supposed to be a free country. The three of you might feel as though you "know" the truth, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire series of events has been quite "fishy". There are issues with the warrant. There are issues with the intervention. CPS did not follow standard operating procedure. They did not do a civil investigation. They launched an army and ripped open an entire community. Even Flora Jessop, who runs a "rescue operation" for girls trying to leave said that the initial call which came to her was very suspicious and raised a lot of red flags. Yet, the authorities did not question it. They had been preparing for a raid, so the town got a raid.
That's what you're missing. Although the 3 of you may "know" these people are guilty, we still have due process. We still have private property. We still have crimes known as illegal search and seizure. And when we give these liberties up because we think we're back in Salem, Massachusetts and we "know" these people are witches, we are saying that the end justifies the means and we are headed for Nazi Germany. Do you remember a thing called The Holocaust?
You know, I've heard that a large part of the populations in West Virginia, South Carolina, Alabama, and Louisiana are nothing but a bunch of inbreeders and hunt people and make moonshine. Have you ever driven through Talladega National Forest or the bayous of Louisiana? Those people are just plain weird and scary looking. And they stare at you until your car disappears. And did you know that gun dealers, by definition, stockpile weapons? And accountants know the IRS Code the best, so every living accountant is potentially a very sophisticated tax evader. And I've heard everyone living inside the loop in Washington, D.C. is a corrupt politician or a lobbyist representing special interests. And all citizens of Newport, Rhode Island and Grosse Pointe Blank, Michigan are rich people from families of CEO's, and we "know" all CEO's are evil. So let's just round up all of those people from all of those communities because they're weird and they're evil, railroad them through the legal process, and do what we want with them.
You keep talking about the bad things that are happening inside the compound. Greta Van Susteren, however, pointed out that it appears only 5 people were possible victims of abuse, which comes down to about 1% of the population. I had heard that it was around 20 people, which would bring the ratio up to just under 5%. Wow. I defy you to find another community where the rate of child and sexual abuse are that low. Hey, wait, you know what? I have got a GREAT idea! You are going to love this, so listen up, okay? This is great. Let's rip all of them out of this community and let's put them in zero lot line suburbia, where they can't play outside alone without fear of being hit by a speeding car or kidnapped, raped, and killed. Let's put them in a failing school system where they can be exposed to profanity, materialism, and drugs. And if they don't get hooked on drugs, we'll put them on Ritalin (which is Meth, by the way... you know, the whole War On Drugs?). Then, if we can't get them on Ritalin, let's skip to the chase by requiring ALL teenage girls to take a drug to help prevent disease because, let's face it, we know all teenage girls have sex.
Better yet, let's send them all to Catholic School. Have you been watching the latest news updates over the past several days? You ever hear of this guy called the Pope? Guess what most of the headlines have centered around? I'll tell you: Priests and Bishops molesting young boys and girls, and the associated fallout. The most popular question is, "How do we fix it?"
So maybe we shouldn't be in such a rush to self-righteously "assimilate them into our culture" with the arrogance that we know best or that we have the best system.
Let's try to remember that this country was founded on the basis of keeping Church and State separate. We are supposed to tolerate different belief systems and lifestyles. The government is supposed to respect private property. Once you allow the government to invade homes and communities because "those people deserved it" or because "we know those people are bad", we've lost liberty and given ourselves over to tyranny.
It concerns me that the 3 of you are so defensive and steadfast that you can't see this.
Anonymous #2, Anonymous #3, and Native Texan,
ReplyDeleteI think the real issue is that I am the only one (between the 3 of you and me) who actually IS looking at this from all angles. The three of you are all assuming that all of these people are guilty. Right or wrong, you do need to remember that this is the United States of America, which is supposed to be a free country. The three of you might feel as though you "know" the truth, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire series of events has been quite "fishy". There are issues with the warrant. There are issues with the intervention. CPS did not follow standard operating procedure. They did not do a civil investigation. They launched an army and ripped open an entire community. Even Flora Jessop, who runs a "rescue operation" for girls trying to leave said that the initial call which came to her was very suspicious and raised a lot of red flags. Yet, the authorities did not question it. They had been preparing for a raid, so the town got a raid.
That's what you're missing. Although the 3 of you may "know" these people are guilty, we still have due process. We still have private property. We still have crimes known as illegal search and seizure. And when we give these liberties up because we think we're back in Salem, Massachusetts and we "know" these people are witches, we are saying that the end justifies the means and we are headed for Nazi Germany. Do you remember a thing called The Holocaust?
You know, I've heard that a large part of the populations in West Virginia, South Carolina, Alabama, and Louisiana are nothing but a bunch of inbreeders and hunt people and make moonshine. Have you ever driven through Talladega National Forest or the bayous of Louisiana? Those people are just plain weird and scary looking. And they stare at you until your car disappears. And did you know that gun dealers, by definition, stockpile weapons? And accountants know the IRS Code the best, so every living accountant is potentially a very sophisticated tax evader. And I've heard everyone living inside the loop in Washington, D.C. is a corrupt politician or a lobbyist representing special interests. And all citizens of Newport, Rhode Island and Grosse Pointe Blank, Michigan are rich people from families of CEO's, and we "know" all CEO's are evil. So let's just round up all of those people from all of those communities because they're weird and they're evil, railroad them through the legal process, and do what we want with them.
You keep talking about the bad things that are happening inside the compound. Greta Van Susteren, however, pointed out that it appears only 5 people were possible victims of abuse, which comes down to about 1% of the population. I had heard that it was around 20 people, which would bring the ratio up to just under 5%. Wow. I defy you to find another community where the rate of child and sexual abuse are that low. Hey, wait, you know what? I have got a GREAT idea! You are going to love this, so listen up, okay? This is great. Let's rip all of them out of this community and let's put them in zero lot line suburbia, where they can't play outside alone without fear of being hit by a speeding car or kidnapped, raped, and killed. Let's put them in a failing school system where they can be exposed to profanity, materialism, and drugs. And if they don't get hooked on drugs, we'll put them on Ritalin (which is Meth, by the way... you know, the whole War On Drugs?). Then, if we can't get them on Ritalin, let's skip to the chase by requiring ALL teenage girls to take a drug to help prevent disease because, let's face it, we know all teenage girls have sex.
Better yet, let's send them all to Catholic School. Have you been watching the latest news updates over the past several days? You ever hear of this guy called the Pope? Guess what most of the headlines have centered around? I'll tell you: Priests and Bishops molesting young boys and girls, and the associated fallout. The most popular question is, "How do we fix it?"
So maybe we shouldn't be in such a rush to self-righteously "assimilate them into our culture" with the arrogance that we know best or that we have the best system.
Let's try to remember that this country was founded on the basis of keeping Church and State separate. We are supposed to tolerate different belief systems and lifestyles. The government is supposed to respect private property. Once you allow the government to invade homes and communities because "those people deserved it" or because "we know those people are bad", we've lost liberty and given ourselves over to tyranny.
It concerns me that the 3 of you are so defensive and steadfast that you can't see this.
Someone sent me the official international definition of genocide. Here are the pieces which leapt out at me:
ReplyDeletethe mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Dear george dewey and fttc,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if my comments about integrating the children into the outside world came across as self-righteous. I don't think that pulling all 400 some odd of them out of there permanantly is the solution, because I don't believe they're all being mistreated.
The state of Texas had a responsibility to follow up on the call they received from this "Sarah". Now we all know that call was most likely a hoax, but who's fault was that? It was a pretty good hoax and I'm sure that you both know how many Barlows there are in that community (or have they all been excommunicated?). When they went in to find "Sarah", they found that most of these children were unable or unwilling to identify their birth mothers. Also you have several hundred people housed in a few large buildings (no, it's not like a regular city block and that comparison is ridiculous). How do you isolate abuse in a situation like that? Even when they separated the women and children from the men, many women were unwilling to answer simple questions without running it by their husbands on the cell phone. This probably came across as suspicious. What a mess!
At any rate, let me be very clear in saying that I don't care if you're Amish, Muslim, Protestant, Agnostic, Catholic, FLDS, or LDS, it's never okay to abuse a child psychologically, physically, or sexually. It's a human rights issue, not a religious issue.
The laws of our land are laid out this way to protect the innocent (except the abortion laws). Don't knowingly violate these laws, then cry "religious persecution" when you have to pay the penalty like the rest of us.
George Dewey, I too am watching a lot of Gretta these days and Fox News. I can only assume that your views, like mine, are somewhat conservative. Religious freedom is one thing I treasure about our great nation, but we can't pick and chose which laws apply to us due to our religious views and expect everyone to step aside.
The reality of the situation is that not all of the children will be returned. I hope they are able to temporarily place these children with others who have previously been a part of this group. They would be better equipped to understand the challenges and needs of these children.
It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. My guess is that CPS and others within the Texas justice system know a lot more than us bloggers and news-watchers.
I know a little about fttc's background, but what about you, george?
thanks for listening
No, actually, I'm not FLDS. I actually wasn't even aware of this compound's existence until this news story came out.
ReplyDeleteI am simply very, very concerned about the government's continued expansion of power and intrusion into our private lives.
The closest I can come to relating to this story, personally, is that a former neighbor of mine was once accused of sexual child abuse. It ended up being a ruse by his ex-wife, but he was vindicated, in the end. If you apply the current Eldorado model to that incident, the police could have raided all 40 or 50 homes in our neighborhood.
Why are corrupt polygamous cults given tax exempt status? Polygamy is illegal (a felony). Americans should demand that their religious tax exemption be stripped away. It's simply OUTRAGEOUS!
ReplyDeleteSenator Linda Binder talks about this in the documentary film, BANKING ON HEAVEN.
George,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad your neighbor was vindicated. Hopefully those who are innocent will be upheld in this case too.
I don't agree with the comparison that your whole neighborhood could have been raided.
Do most of you live in just a few large houses? Do many of you eat together every night? Do the wives in your neighborhood share in childcare, homemaking, and schooling responsibility? Do you share in the disciplining of one anothers' children? Do most of the men work together? Are you related to many of the people in your neighborhood?
Unless you, too, are in a communal living arrangement I doubt you could answer yes to many of these questions - at least I can't.
My point is that in a situation like this there is a lot of "village effort" in raising the kids (correct me if I'm wrong any FLDS). It's not as if you could go directly to Mr. and Mrs. Smith and find out exactly where the child has been, who they've been with, and what they've been doing 24/7. You may only have a few people who are abusers in the group, but they have access to many. It is a statistic impossibility that there is only one abuser in the group and also impossible that only one or two kids may have been affected in this living arrangement.
I understand what you're saying about the government's intrusion into our private lives, I just don't think you can compare their lives side by side with your's (you said you're not FLDS).
Obviously those who have left the group did so because they weren't happy with one aspect or another. One thing they all complain about is the abuse they suffered within. Also, I haven't heard one thing said about their actual belief system in these cases. It seems to be all about the way it's affecting the children. Anything beyond that is pure opinion and speculation.
You mentioned you've been watching Gretta. I was also watching. Did you watch Sean Hannity's coverage on it immediately afterwards?
It is unlawful for a man to have more than one legal wife, just as it is unlawful for a woman to have more than one legal husband.
ReplyDeleteThe "loophole" is that, in these polygamous communities, the men do not legally wed more than one wife. They have religious marriages. They take religious vows. These are not legally binding.
If you want to end the abuses, then we, as a society, should legalize polygamy, and, as a society, force ALL MEN to financially support any children they create.
There is no real reason to make polygamy illegal, anyway. We do have Separation of Church and State. Marriage really has nothing to do with the government.
That being said, it is my understanding (and I've only seen this from one unconfirmed source) that none of the women in this compound are receiving welfare benefits as a result of their status of single motherhood, as is the case in many polygamous societies.
However, I did also "learn" from another undocumented source that members of the group outside of the compound were receiving WIC and other benefits, much of which had been sent to members of the compound.
The simplest ways to end these abuses are to legalize polygamy and minimize our welfare programs. While there are many valid, necessary welfare programs, there are far more which are abused excessively... all at your and my, the taxpayers' expense.
On the subject of taxes, let's not forget that the improved 1,700 acre property has been a tax boon to the area, which is not exactly property rich. The church obtained the property at a fairly low price, from what I understand, and built it apparently with no outside labor. Additionally, they quarried rock from the premises, which was used in construction of many of the structures. The quarried land was turned into farmland. They have their own sewage system and their own milk facility. Despite any feelings we might have about their religious beliefs, there are a lot of lessons to be learned from self-sufficient communities like this.
Native Texan
ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying. I expected your response to be something like it was. Like I said I don't disagree with much of what you say but the way it was worded sounded different than what you have posted in the past. I have appreciated the dialogue and hope to continue it!
Anon 12:31
I wonder what you have reference to. I have not read Banking on Heaven but I do know that as long as I was in the FLDS they were not tax exempt. I could never write off on my taxes the contributions I made to the organization. Do you know this has changed? I did not suppose it had.
Native Texan,
ReplyDeleteWith regards to the summation of your position, "I understand what you're saying about the government's intrusion into our private lives, I just don't think you can compare their lives side by side with your's", that's the very stance which has gotten us into trouble and the faux "authority" which the State is using to abuse it's power.
I don't think there is one party on this blog trail who approves of child abuse. Hopefully, we can all agree that child abuse, sexually or otherwise, is wrong. I feel pretty safe in that assumption.
What we need to examine is method, means, and motive. I see absolutely no reason that the CPS could not have conducted a thorough investigation, complete with audit and oversight, without violating the rights of this community, involving violence, and exposing these children to trauma, including the dangers of the very flawed Texas Foster Care System. This was completely inappropriate.
Let's face it. This is an election year, and the stats for child abuse and child neglect are not in the favor of the current lawmakers or the CPS. What better way to quickly inflate the numbers (and the PR) by engaging in one massive raid to immediately inflate the numbers and create the illusion of a solution?
As far as Fox News goes, I saw Greta talk to Jessop, and I also saw Kilmeade and Doocy talk to Greg Abbott. Needless to say, I was not impressed with Greg Abbott. I have very little remaining respect for Sean Hannity, but, as I've said before, I attempt to look at things from all angles. I'm sure I can find a replay on YouTube. Thanks for letting me know about it!
George,
ReplyDeleteConsidering the divorce stats in this country, do you think allowing more marriage would be good? These folks in the FLDS generally stay together because they have an eternal stake in their position in the marriage. If you take out that element, can you imagine how confusing it would be to the children with all the adults coming and going?
Also, outside of religious obligation, I'm not sure most people can do polygamy well...maybe I'm just speaking for me!
haha
George,
ReplyDeleteYou have a very strong opinion about what the government is doing here and I respect that. Again, I am for less government intervention in our lives. I do feel that your opinion lacks well-rounded information, particularly about the FLDS.
With all the DNA testing that's being done this week, we have a lot more to think (and talk) about.
What do you think about the reassigning of wives and children by the group's leadership over the past few years? What happened to the husbands' rights to raise their children with their wives? What about the childrens' rights to know who their father is? How about the wives being forced into a new marriage with a new husband, who has a the same rights over her that her old one had (including sexual)?
I read that some of these women had been reassigned four and five times.
George,
ReplyDeleteAs to your question about why they couldn't take their time and do a thorough investigation I have two words for you: FLIGHT RISK.
The FLDS leaders have deceived Texas authorities again and again over the last few years and have lost all trust. This is not a normal situation as much as you would like to believe it is.
What is your problem with foster care? I take offense.
George,
ReplyDeleteBy the way, you mentioned in an earlier post that polygamy should be legalized and men required to financially support any children they help bring into the world.
Aren't men who bring children into the world already required by law to financially support children they bring into this world?
What you're not grasping is the blatant disregard and disdain many of these folks have for the law.
If that were not the case, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.
Native Texan,
ReplyDeleteThe divorce stats in this country, as well as the confused children who end up with several sets of step-parents and step-siblings (who also then leave their lives) would be a reason to consider polygamy.
What's worse? Polygamy practiced responsibly (not saying FLDS does or does not do that) or serial monogamy (which is inherently practiced poorly)?
But, once again, my arguments are not for or against polygamy. My arguments are not for or against FLDS. My arguments are for civil liberties and against overzealous, fascist police and government.