I couldn't believe it when I saw these photos. If you go through the photo slideshow you will see warren wearing his shorts and short sleeve shirts, Isaac, and Naomi in jeans. For me it was interesting to see how similar they all looked.
http://extras.sltrib.com/tribphoto/gallery.asp?ID=49050&GID=WARRE_1120&Pubdate=&sort=Gallery
good on the duds naomi,but the hair needs work.
ReplyDeleteuncaduff.
I'm extremely interested to see Warren's actions in court today. It's easy to convince brainwashed people when you talk in circles, but I wonder how well he'll be able to convince non-brainwashed people.
ReplyDeleteThis will be VERY interesting.
I'm very interested in seeing Warren in court today. I'm curious as to how he will try and sway the non-brainwashed people of the general public. He's not used to that.
ReplyDeleteNow if my dad or mom was caught wearing something like that, they would be cut off for unmentionable sins.
ReplyDeleteFunny that Warren get a justice system that will give him a fair chance when he could never offer that to anyone he kicked out He was as judge, jury and hangman. There was no justice at all.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/21/polygamist.leader.ap/index.html
ReplyDeleteOh, Warren. By the first witness, sounds like you may be in some trouble :)
Do not get your persicuting dander up. Why did they wait until he had been in Jail for a while to produce the photo's. Just makes me know that Utah law is as corrupt as they can get. I thought they had done the worst they could do. I guess i was wrong. Oh, but i bet you hateful creatures that call yourself Americans got a great big adrenalin thrill. great big hero's are district attorneys. Throwing there weight around. And who will tell the rest of the story. My American Flag is at half mast, with all the corruption on our shores. And who wins the war? He is my hero. You Mark Shirtliff are still a crimnal to me.
ReplyDelete"...Funny that Warren get a justice system that will give him a fair chance when he could never ..."
ReplyDeleteyou're absolutely right.
us hell-bound gentiles consider even wj equal in the eyes of our laws
not to mention
we also take on all your lost boys and expelled husbands
if we didn't?
we'd throw them all into buses and ship them back to C.C.
"... here ya go guys, take out your own thrash..."
keep sweet eldorado
stg
warren won't have to try and convince anyone - he probably will never speak. He's hired 'regular folks' who know how to be persuasive to represent his best interests. I doubt heartily - that they represent him in any fashion.
ReplyDeleteHe has the best lawyers and they shreaded the states evidence and star witness in his hearing today. Anyone can tell that he is not guilty of what they are charging him of. Also he married the couple in Nevada where anything goes.
ReplyDeleteThe Americans during World War II sent spies out in Germany. The Americans dressed in a German uniform in order to not be caught. Does that mean they gave up the freedom they believed in? My point is simply that Warren Jeffs was undercover. What was he supposed to wear, a suit and white tie everywhere he went? There is only so much you can do especially when you're on the 10 most wanted list.
ReplyDelete5:38 & 1:59
ReplyDelete"Dream on little dreamer."
There are borders on both oceans and with Mexico & Canada. If WE Americans are so bad, I invite you to leave. WE Americans would do just fine without your criticism of OUR nation and continued obstruction of justice. You are not held here by force. Leave now! Beware, there is a spring closure attached so don't let the door hit you on the butt! The quicker you are out of here, the safer your backside is from a collision.
The information related to Jeffs capture has been available and was published at the time of Jeffs arrest. The photos, owned by the Salt Lake Tribune, have been held and released only a to need-to-know until now. The photos only confirm what the press releases stated.
How is your profit's flaunting of disobedience to his own standard a test for you? You can be removed at his will. If you think that he has goofed is that justification for excommunication? Where is his justice? Oh yeah, that will come from the State and Federal Courts.
Your little religion teaches that you can progressivly live in several worlds and become gods in your own right. Is that not teaching evolution? Perhaps in your case Darwin's theory might have a bit of truth, you are now in the ostrich-emu state, with your heade buried in the ground, along with your eyes and brain.
Truth is a dangerous thing, a bitter pill to swallow. But, once it is accepted it purges the mind of all the fear, ignorance and confusion that has reigned supreme from the 1830's until today.
To the anonymous apologetics.
ReplyDeleteI am of FLDS origins. It is very easy to think that the attire warren had on at the time of his arrest is the 'uniform' of the enemy. Sorry but it just isn't so. There are a large percentage of people outside the FLDS who do not go around in shorts and t-shirts. There are ways that warren could disguise himself without compromising his own teachings. He apparently knew what a wig was. I think it fair to assume he knew then that fake mustaches and beards were available. He is known for wearing fine looking clothes. He could have gone to a second hand store and bought some worn out long legged and long sleeved clothing and been just as much in disguise as he was in the shorts. There are ways to live your principles if you have any.
fttc:
ReplyDeleteFrom my point of view it seems as if the "faithful" are the only ones bamboozled by Jeffs being the one and only to determine the way the wig-wags.
Thanks for your insight.
Well folks, it is America....The witness has as many "rights" as mr. prophet... and she was underage...and mr. prophet is the "adult".
ReplyDeleteWould the witness normally married at 14 in this group before Warren? Probably not.
The disturbing thing is mr. prophet has "matched" many more underage girls while he was on the run and will continue to so.
The FLDS community in many states are teaming with them.
wake up America, mr. prophet is a "pimp" in prophet clothing.
To anon 9:13....
ReplyDeleteKeep telling yourself that.
What Warren did was wrong in every way. You have to be in a deep state of self-delusion to see otherwise.
I wonder if he felt any shame for the way his lawyers were acting.
For this "lifestyle" to exist girls must be exploited as this girl was. Give a girl enough time and free will and few would ever choose this form of bondage. Why else force them to marry them at age 14!!
What happened to that girl the world will finally hear. And give a small window into the dirty little secret this polygamous cult guards to deeply.
To anon 9:13....
ReplyDeleteKeep telling yourself that.
What Warren did was wrong in every way. You have to be in a deep state of self-delusion to see otherwise.
I wonder if he felt any shame for the way his lawyers were acting.
For this "lifestyle" to exist girls must be exploited as this girl was. Give a girl enough time and free will and few would ever choose this form of bondage. Why else force them to marry them at age 14!!
What happened to that girl the world will finally hear. And give a small window into the dirty little secret this polygamous cult guards to deeply.
So under certain circumstances it is ok to remove your priestly garments?
ReplyDeleteCan you give a list of circumstances - or is it just if you make it on the ten most wanted list.
The cop who pulled him over didn't recognize him at all. A pair of slacks and a dress shirt wouldn't have changed that - he had no idea who warren jeffs was. I venture to say sleeves and pants would have no bearing on wether someone recognized Jeffs at all. Most have only seen photos of his face - his clothing was only relevant to him, and his personal beliefs.
Lets be honest. If he was really in hiding - why was he going to theme parks? why was he driving a red escalade and not a blue one?
He made choices - that had no bearing on his capture - but showed insight into the reality of his true convictions.
The top levels of powerful religious folk have had this going on for a long time - it's not suprising to me, nor should it be to you.
Ya know ya don't have to be a rocket scientist to know who Jane Doe IV is. You read the article CNN put out and bingo there you have who she is. Feel sorry for her.
ReplyDeleteMuggsey 10.00: Muggsey, it's their country too, and if they wish to find fault with it, to express their opinion that not everything in the USA is absolutely perfect and beyond reproach, they have inalienable rights to the freedom of dissent and expression. I find it surprising, given the faith you have expressed in the Constitution on this board, that you are so unwilling for people to enjoy its benefits.
ReplyDeleteBesides, I seem to remember a couple months ago, you criticizing the supreme court. Maybe you should emigrate if you don't like it?
atar_i: So under certain circumstances it is ok to remove your priestly garments?
ReplyDeleteI can't speak for the FLDS, but in the LDS, sure. If you planned to go swimming, for example. Or for athletics where suitable clothing would reveal the garment.
And obviously, we don't shower or have sex wearing garments!
tbm
ReplyDelete5:38 was not critical of a branch of government. His criticism was of the nation as individuals. He obviously doesn't know nor understand anything outside his little sphere of existance therefore he doesn't know a lot about America or Americans.
I'll criticize any person or branch of government I want. That is my right. But, 5:38's address wasn't to America the nation but against Americans as a whole and I take offence. I had a great- - - - injured severely in the American Revolution, a great - - - killed in the Civil War, an uncle killed in WWI, three uncles and three cousins who saw service in WWII, two of whom were at Normandy. I had other cousins and friends who served in Korea and Viet Nam. Several lost their lives and many were seriously wounded. One friend, a graduate of one of the service academys, was seriously wounded several times but returned to battle again and again after convelesence. I too have served under the colors of the U.S. Military and resent any pipsqueek who takes the U.S.'s largess and provides neither support nor services, but who's greatest claim to fame is to hide behind the safety net of our court system which he then calls crooked.
There are bad eggs in any system. I'll bet he's surrounded by them. He may very well be one himself, I don't know. All I have to base my opinion upon is what he put in his post. If his leader disguises himself to assist in avoiding capture by state and federal authorities and in doing so commits a series of felonies, then 5:38's chief claim to fame is his backing a looser, a charltan, a fraud and a fellon currently sitting in jail awaiting trial.
TBM
ReplyDeleteDo the FLDS swim - and if so - what would they wear?
I wasn't asking any of those things that you mentioned - I was strictly asking if it was OK to remove garments for trips to theme parks, supermarkets, concerts, sporting events or because you are on an FBI list.
I think you probably already knew that, and I appreciate your response for mainline LDS, but I'm really asking about FLDS.
I finall found it!
ReplyDeleteThis was a post back in the August archives by a FLDS member who seemed a little upset when he heard about Warrens dress when arrested.
It is very long, but fairly well written.
To those wondering how the FLDS will rationalize Warren’s dress, vehicles etc. at the time of his arrest:
To rationalize is easy. Just take the word and break it apart... rational lies.
I think one of the first quoted items of scripture to rationalize Warren's hypocrisy will be from Joseph Smith:
"God said, 'Thou shalt not kill:' at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted---by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.” (TPJS p.256)
Lets look at this in a slightly different light, and that is ends and means. Does the end (staying hidden from the law) justify the means (shorts & t-shirt). I thought the long underwear and clothes to the neck, wrists and ankles were for protection from the “gentile” world and its influences. If we dressed like them, it would show our desire for their “immoral” way of life. If the ends (not getting caught) was right before the Lord, would you then not want his protection? Rember, the police officer is part of the "gentile" world.
OK, so Warren must have had a revelation that said it is OK for himself and those with him to dress the same as “the gentile world” to avoid capture. Lets think about this for a moment; he is breaking the FLDS dress code to fit into the gentile world. He is trying to fit in to avoid being captured for breaking the laws of the land. I really think the question we should really be asking is “why was he trying so hard not to be found?” Perhaps I’m missing something when in the Doctrine & Covenants I read this: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.” (D&C sec58 v21)
If it is for a righteous reason, how can a good end be accomplished with an evil ( worldly dress) means? Is it because the world is so evil and wicked (remember he joined with this “evil” world at least in dress) that they seek him only to persecute and destroy him? That is what most of the FLDS faithful think. Was he trying not to get caught because he only answers to God and not the laws of the land (remember, the lawmakers have such a hate for him that they make laws just to make his life miserable)? If so, then why didn’t the Lord simply “blind” the eyes of those looking for him while he was still dressed as he teaches the faithful to dress and wearing the long garments which we have been taught are for our protection?
I guess I just don’t get it... He is hiding because he doesn’t want to answer to the laws of the land which he broke. That goes against the above quote from the Doctrine & Covenants. Then to help himself hide he breaks the dress code of the FLDS. Noh he has broken the laws of the land and of the church. Now, both the ends and the means aren’t adding up to a righteous cause. And to those who say the laws were made just to persecute the prophet and his people, we could easily avoid the persecution of the law by waiting until the girls are over the age of 18. No one yet has shown me where it is in Holy Writ that those over 18 are any less pure than those under the age of 18. If the principle (placement & plural marriage) is true, is it not just as true with brides 18 and older than those who are younger than 18?
Now, as far as vehicles are concerned, it is nice to see the money I and my business contributed to the church as well as that of many other FLDS members has been carefully spent and not squandered on excess luxuries. The one that really gets me though is the two seater sports car. Warren once told me that a man who would own and drive such a car is the kind of man who would want to rape the daughters of Zion. I do hope the report of such a car are false, because that does not sit well with what he (Warren Jeffs) said.
To close, those of you who do not know me, I’m an FLDS member and still “in”. However, there are so many questions that it is impossible to “put them all on the shelf". I also apologize for my poor (and long winded) writing skills. Although I was lucky enough to get some higher education, writing is not one of my strong points.
IITMOC
9/03/2006 11:33 PM
Yes we swin. those that do were told by Uncle Rulon " when he was here"tostill keepour bodies covered up though. We can where t shirts and leggins and still have a good swim.
ReplyDeleteIITMOC
ReplyDeleteYour candid view of the "situation" is refreshing. Please do not put your writing skills under the heading as 'inferior'. What you described is easily understood. The emotions expressed are believable and facts well thought out before the actual writing began.
Now, if you want to compare your post to poor communications skill, take a look at the 11/23 6:50 post. If this entry is indicative of the literary skills of FLDS in general, your post was a doctoral dissertation by comparison. Thank you for your candid insight. Please assist your people in obtaining the skills required by those for whom your people may want to work in the future. The ability to write complete literate sentences, compute basic math skills and understand the rudiments of geography are essential to compete in any free society, but maybe not so in a society of slavery.
Slave or free? It is each man's decision.
mugs, I wish I had IITMOC's writing abilities. the above post I cut and pasted from the august or sept archives. i havn't seen him post in quite a while.
ReplyDeleteThanks - I would hate to think that you couldn't enjoy the water, but I did wonder how it worked.
ReplyDeleteSwimsuits are revealing even to those that don't wear long garments all the time.
So, just so I get this straight. Long garments are worn even to swim - shorts and short sleeve shirts are not tolerated.
That must make the hot pink short sleeve shirt worn by Naomi hard to understand, and warrens shorts and short sleeves too.
Can you tell me honestly how it struck you the first time you heard/saw it.
Why are the FLDS garments so long? The important thing about temple garments is the markings on them, not the shape. LDS garments have been re-designed to allow for modern dressing trends and permit LDS to wear T shirts and shorts (the garment has a knee mark, so the shorts need to be quite long). Why are the FLDS so concerned about preserving the ankle-to-wrist shape, especially in southern Utah / northern Arizona / Texas where T shirts and shorts are often the most practical and sensible dress style?
ReplyDeleteatar_i, for what it's worth, in answer to your 11.56 post, most LDS would not consider it appropriate to remove one's garments just for a trip to the grocery store or a theme park. As for being on the FBI's most-wanted list, I concur with IITMOC's post.
IITMOC used to write some good stuff. Where are you, IITMOC? Come on back!
CB radio, radar detector, walky-talkies and cell phones, wigs, disguises, envelopes of cash -- but in all this preparation, they forgot to the car's registration was out of date, so a cop pulled them over. How bizarre is that!
ReplyDeletetbm
ReplyDeleteDo you see the possibility that Jeffs has thumbed his nose at the "rule of law" for so long that he had developed the belief that somehow he has the ability to become invisible when the situation demands. Talk about the ultimate ego!
Such invincible attitudes have served as a prelude to the demise of many tyrants in the past. When you become so conceited that you believe yourself to be at the center of the universe be prepared for a drastic fall. He's wasn't the first nor will he be the last to experience his 'come-uppins'.
(a little colloquialism for the sake of clarity)
It is most interesting to try to follow the logic of Warren Jeffs.
ReplyDelete1. He assumed leadership of FLDS upon the death of his father Rulon Jeffs. Was there a consenses of opinion among the leadership of FLDS that Warren should become the Prophet? Or, did he just assume the role and begin by casting out those whom he knew to be strong enough personality to oppose his presumption of leadership?
2. He made an announcement that no one should be even considering taking any of Rulon's wives as their own. He reserved the most of them for himself and gave a very few to his trusted lieutenants.
3. He finagled his way into the abslolute voice of the UEP and freely spent all the cash reserves to ensure his own stability as profit. He stole businesses, favored people and funds and spirited them away to use as he saw fit.
4. His 'repent from afar' strength came from his having recorded private conversations between his father and FLDS members and also between himself and FLDS. He used these conversations as evidence, in his own eyes, to cause those who would oppose him to leave family and home. This constitutes blackmail. God forgives sin, why doesn't Warren, if indeed you believe he can forgive sin. He is not God you know.
5. He has continued to issue orders to underage young girls to marry men of his choice, even against the girl's will. Is he licensed in either Utah, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, South Dakota, Oregon, Georgia, Florida, or Texas to perform marriages? If he is not recognized by the state as a minister of the gospel or a magistrate or judge he has no authority to perform marriage ceremonies therefore, even marriages of first wives are invalid. Why has no one considered this angle?
6 Arizona and Utah issued warrants for Jeffs arrest to face charges in both of these states. He ran from state to state, either so stupid that he didn't consider the possible consequences of indictment by the Federal Government in relation to his flight to avoid prosecution.
7. He was stopped on a routine traffic stop outside Las Vegas. Contrary to what his minions would claim, his detention was the result of the outstanding warrants issued by Arizona, Utah and the Federal Government. It didn't help his chances to escape when he was named one of the F.B.I.'s ten most wanted fugatives from justice. This infamous notoriety caused his face to be known to every law enforcement officer in the land. Knowing that his capture was inevitable why didn't Jeffs turn himself in?
8. His manner of dress, and that of his companions was for the purpose of disguise? If Jeffs had done nothing wrong why did he need a disguise? A criminal uses a disguise in an attempt to foil those whose job it is to find the fugitive from justice. Why was there a need for his 'wife' to assume a disguise? She was released because she was not a fugative. Same thing applied to his brother's release.
Let the wheels of justice turn. If Jeffs is found to be innocent he will be released. He is held captive because of his history of running to escape the long arm of the law. The Feds want to ensure that his person is on hand when time for the trial comes.
TBM said...
ReplyDeleteCB radio, radar detector, walky-talkies and cell phones, wigs, disguises, envelopes of cash -- but in all this preparation, they forgot to the car's registration was out of date, so a cop pulled them over. How bizarre is that!
11/24/2006 8:52 AM
tbm
Not bizarre at all.
Ask anyone in law enforcement. Law breakers do the stupidest things and get caught.
Reguarding the long underwear that is spoken about here while swiming. There were people swiming in local swiming pools that would undress and swim in the pools that other members were in that were covered up. That is why it was mentioned in general meeting by Uncle Rulon, regarding the covering up of our bodies.
ReplyDeleteWhen a couple or family... goes out of town, on an outing, etc.. it is up to them whether they dis-robe or not while in a public pool.
Concerning me, I would when with my husband, dress in a bathing suit, as I have in the past, to go swiming. Where as, if I were with my children going into a pool or lake, if the case my be.. I would keep my body covered up as much as possable.
9:45 thanks for the excellent information.
ReplyDeleteOur family was never allowed in a pool - public or private - without being fully clothed. Believe me it was pretty odd to see several members of the family fully clothed in a hotel/motel swimming pool with other "gentiles" in regular swimwear. I personally could never bring myself to go in, but the kids and other sister-wives did.
ReplyDeleteUTB FLDS
IITMOC wishes to fly low under the radar.
ReplyDeleteIITMOCs brother
That would be incredibly odd, and I cannot imaging swimming that way.
ReplyDeleteWould they have allowed a wet suit to swim in? They are rather skin tight, but they cover from the ankles to the neck with long sleeves, and you could wear it without sticking out terribly.
I went with my Husband to a Confernce in Phoenix one year, the Hotel that we were at had an indoor pool. There was two other couples with us at that time.
ReplyDeleteOne Couple refused to do any kind of receration that involved any kind of association with "Gentiles" except when it involved the "business at hand". The other couple called us and asked us if we were going to use the pool. So we scheduled different times that we were "in" so that we would not see each other.
I went with my Husband for a walk to kill time before it was our turn in the pool. As we walked by the pool room, We noticed that the Man was in the pool, but is wife was still dressed, just watching him as he was swiming, and yes he had on swimming trunks.
Yes, we also dressed into bathing suit .. trunks.., as we went for a swim. I personally feel that it is up to each person as how they are inpressed, as the occation arises in how to dress, or not dress. I don't feel bad in the least. I know that we dress to cover our bodies, but more importantly than that, is the spirit that each one carries. It is the same issue concerning the "long underwear" that is being discussed here.
Yes we were councled to wear it, to cover up our bodies, but just because we wear or don't wear it, is not the "saving principal" It is the spirit that the person carries with them that really matters. Remember that "we too" are taught by "pet traditions" as Uncle Rulon used to call it.
We are so busy looking over our shoulders at what every one else is doing or not doing, that we forget the basics. Love Our Neighbor As Ourselves, By Doing This, We Love Hevenly Father Most Of All, By Doing This We Are So Busy Preparing Our Selves And Our Loved Ones That We Don't Have Time To Judge Others.
Anything skin tight is a no-no! Besides, purchasing one for everybody would have been considered a frivolous and extreme waste of money. I considered it frivolous to be in a public swimming pool in the first place. I guess I was pretty starchy.
ReplyDeleteUTB FLDS
Does anyone ever go swimming in a creek, a river or a pond, away from the 'gentlle' world? If everyone who is there is FLDS do the rules relax a bit?
ReplyDeleteHeads Up:
ReplyDeleteAn escapee from the Purgatory Jail named Doyle Dockstader may be headed to CC/Hildale. According to the KSL TV news story here:
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=677362
He is considered armed and dangerous. Contact Washington County Sheriff if you see him in the area.
Mugs,
ReplyDeleteThe answer (in my case, both growing up and as an adult) is, yes we'd go swimming in creeks, ponds, swimming holes, etc., but the rules were no different. No, not at all.
UTB FLDS
It sounds like some families kept the underlying principle intact while not strictly adhering to normal dress code while in public swimming areas.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a reasonable response. Honestly, who cares what other people think as long as you are comfortable with it.
In the whole of life what does it matter what costume you wear in the water?
Water is just plain fun. Hot Springs, Indian Sweats, Intertubing, Rafting, Canoeing, Kayaking, Rope Swings into the River, Swimming Pools, Hot Tubs - it's all good!
Apologies for the spelling errors - My fingers betray me at times : (
ReplyDeleteThanks UTB FLDS, you satisfied my curiousity.
ReplyDeletehttp://oneutah.org/2006/06/03/polygamy-monogamy-and-monotheism-the-one-and-the-many/
ReplyDeleteWill one of you seasoned vets post a new thread with this link and ask for people's honest opinion of the article.
Thank you in advance.
I wonder if Warren and Naomi put their long underwear back on to have sex, after all, this is what he teaches, is that you are supposed to keep your long underwear on during sex.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely! You are supposed to keep your long underwear on during sex. Except for the few "necessary areas," I never felt skin-on-skin while participating in the act of procreation.
ReplyDeleteUTB FLDS
Did Warren and Naomi put it back on? Who knows!!?? Who cares?? Warren can make up his own rules and justify them to himself and to whoever is willing to follow him without question.
ReplyDeleteAmazing how hypocrisy and absence of logic can reside in otherwise intelligent folks. That may be a bit oxymoronic, but not at all uncommon.
That just kind of blows my mind - the whole sex in long underwear thing.
ReplyDeleteBut I understand it how you rationalize it.
I have made the comment before, if that is where I was raised, I've no doubt I would have been as fervent as any. But, because I know myself, I would have begun to look at the hypocrisy, at some point, and it would have begun to gnaw at me.
At some point I would have stopped rationalizing, and stopped making excuses and calling a spade a spade. I probably would go all spy girl in order to substantiate the things I saw.
looks like he has a slight tan line. That is no disguise.He is dressed comfortble.Even Warren can't live his own religion.When Warren was young he drank,and partied harder than some the young bucks he kicks out.You idiots still at the Creek should pull your heads out of your a#@!
ReplyDeletehe partied?
ReplyDeleteOh yes! I knew one mother who dreaded him coming over to get her daughter. It was a real problem for the family. I attended parties at his father's house that I doubt now that his father even knew were going on. This part of Warren's life is what boggles me that he can seem to have zero tolerance and understanding for the young men and women. It is something he should understand more than most.
ReplyDeletecommitted a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?'
ReplyDelete"All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant....
"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance... if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil... I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them....
"This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it.... if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind." (Sermon by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, February 8, 1857; printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857; also reprinted in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 219-220)
Trips to lake Powell. When he was young.
ReplyDeleteNote the very interesting post from 12/02/06 10:43
ReplyDeleteThis post is related to a sermon delivered by Brigham young in the Mormon Tabernacle on February 8, 1857, reported in the Deseret News February 18, 1857 and noted in Journal of Discourses Vol. 4. pages 219-220.
This reference is related to Young's opinion regarding Blood Atonement.
A closely guarded secret from the world at large, I suspect. Duplicity???? Absolutely!!!
10:43 - that's freaking scary theology.
ReplyDeleteNeither Jesus Christ or God eluded to blood atonement - in the Bible it is quite clear that Christs sacrifice was enough.
It's that kinda talk that gives me goose pimples. I can just picture fundamental mormons doing us all a favor in some nice holocaustish way - YIKES
Anon. 1:34 pm
ReplyDeleteremember that those who have done things that they later are ashamed of, are very strick on themselves as well as others.
Jesus' atonement can not be improved upon. Any other attempt is a hoax and totally an act of vainity. The one who commits the act of murder is a murderer himself, subject to trial, conviction and possible capital punishment. This murderer was just attempting to assist the victim in seeking unobtainable justification for a sin that otherwise is unforgivable. Is the victim now innocent in God's eyes? The murderer is still a murderer. By what authority does any man have the right to act as GOD? Nevertheless, the perpetrator of the act of blood atonement upon another human being has himself become a murderer.
ReplyDeleteSince the perfect atonement, by Jesus' sacrifice is an acomplished fact, how can mere man improve upon that which was accomplished by God.
Muggsey, are you saying that Jesus is God? Please explain.
ReplyDeleteIf Jesus is God, who was he praying to in the Garden of Gesthsemane? Himself?
Ahh Warren, those where the day's wern't they? Trips to Lake Powell with Cocaine Blaine!
ReplyDeleteWho is Cocaine Blaine?
ReplyDelete5:54 - yes. God, the Son (Jesus), was praying to God, the Father, in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Its the trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit - the three in one).
It is distinctly different from Mormon Theology (three separate beings).
Wikipedia has a pretty plain explanation of it.
Cocaine Blaine is his brother Blaine Jeffs. Cocaine was nothing compared to the other action Blaine was into.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Christianity believes that Christ (God) was clinically insane, a madman if you will. in the garden of gethsemane talking to himself. It's a very hard to understand but I couldn't as i grew up in FLDS. Were we taught that Jesus is our brother. And our God is our Father. Sounds simple but I'd hate to hear some self righteous rant from muggsey so i'll just say it's a diffence in belief.
atar_i (muggsey)
ReplyDeleteso, if I read the article correctly, this God=Jesus belief is essentially a make-over of a Greek/pagan tradtion, adopted some 300 years after Jesus died.
The difference is in whom you place your trust. Warren Jeffs? Or GOD, FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. Three in one - one in three. See First John 5:7. See also John 1:1-5; Matthew 28:18-20
ReplyDeleteWere every verse from Genesis thru Revelation address this issue, you would still not believe.
A person can only be "self-righteous" when he/she pretends to be better than everyone else. I am the lowest of GOD's creatures. I do not praise myself, but CHRIST my SAVIOR. I place my faith and trust in Christ, the hope of glory. I do not judge you, that the LORD'S domain. I simply state that which I know. I know whom I have believed and am pursuaded that HE is able to keep me, against THAT DAY. Believe it or not!
ReplyDeleteYes, definately a difference in theology, and Christianity never put forth that Jesus was 'crazy' in the garden - I'm not certain where that came from - could that be an LDS thing?
ReplyDeleteIf you're talking about Brent Jeff's older brother. YES he committed suicide and he may not have done coke if his "uncle " hadn't molested him like he did Brent and he wouldn't have killed himself. I hope Brent get's all the money Warren stole from his followers and does something good with it.
ReplyDeleteBlaine committed suicide b/c he was also raped by Warren like Brent was. Wake up people!
ReplyDeleteI got my names confused. It was Clayne Jeffs, Brent Jeff's brother who committed suicide & that's what made Brent file suit against his theiving , sodomizing uncle!
ReplyDeleteAnn Eliza Young, who had been married to Brigham Young, charged that Joseph Smith was guilty of adultery: "Joseph not only paid his addresses to the young and unmarried women, but he sought 'spiritual alliance' with many married ladies... He taught them that all former marriages were null and void, and that they were at perfect liberty to make another choice of a husband. The marriage covenants were not binding, because they were ratified only by Gentile laws.... consequently all the women were free....
ReplyDelete"One woman said to me not very long since, while giving me some of her experiences in polygamy: 'The greatest trial I ever endured in my life was living with my husband and deceiving him, by receiving Joseph's attentions whenever he chose to come to me.'
"This woman, and others, whose experience has been very similar, are among the very best women in the church; they are as pure-minded and virtuous women as any in the world. They were seduced under the guise of religion,...
"Some of these women have since said they did not know who was the father of their children; this is not to be wondered at, for after Joseph's declaration annulling all Gentile marriages, the greatest promiscuity was practiced; and, indeed, all sense of morality seemed to have been lost by a portion at least of the church." (Wife No.19, 1876, pages 70-
So...is it cocaine Blaine or cocaine Clayne? I new Blaine (the uncle) in my younger years and I wouldn't call him cocaine Blaine at all.
ReplyDeleteIts heroine Clayne, and wife swapping, stepdaughter molesting, Blain. I'm glad my last name is not Jeffs.
ReplyDeletequestion
ReplyDeleteDidn't the prophet Joseph Smith state 'Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed'
Now to my question. If 'the lords ordinances' are 'eternal' and are NEVER to be changed - then why have they changed?
For instance - no naked touching through the side slits in the garments anymore - probably a great relief, but more to the point - A CHANGE.
And, the 'penalties' no throat slashing and disembowelment. Another toss of a morbid ritual which is probably a relief, but definately A CHANGE.
LDS.... change change change.... Very interesting eh?
ReplyDeleteatar, you're confusing the ordinance with the ceremony. Marriage is an ordinance. A marriage ceremony is not a marriage, but merely the vehicle for marking the marriage. You can conduct a marriage ceremony any way you please, or dispense with it altogether and just sign a legal register -- this has no impact whatever on whether or not you are married. The same principle applies to the temple ceremonies.
ReplyDelete