FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Thursday, November 09, 2006
Joseph Rohbocks Story
Joseph asked me to summarize his story and then post it, however, I don't think I could do it justice, and so I am posting it in several parts. He has stated it is ok to do this.
I moved to CC after our house got built in 1999. I was working for Guy Allred at Allco because I had just had back surgery and I was not able to do construction with my brothers at the time. Anyway, the lifestyle down there was totally different than what I was used to in Salt Lake. I had never talked to a girl before, and when Ruby started flirting and paying attention to me, I thought it was pretty cool. So I sent it right back, never dreaming of what I was getting myself into. We just flirted for a little while, and then she started calling me. I thought that was even cooler although I was pretty scared that I would get in trouble. You have to realize that I had been taught all my life that even to talk to a girl was a huge sin. I really was scared. Anyway, it progressed to where I snuck out one night and went and met her. We talked and, yes I kissed her. It was almost intoxicating. I had never felt anything like it in my life. But at the same time, my guilt was killing me. Then someone told me that they were monitoring the phone calls that the girls were making from their rooms. That really got me scared, so I went to Uncle Warren and told him what was going on. He asked me if I had told her I loved her or touched her or kissed her. I told him no. So he cussed me out and told me if I wasn't careful then he was going to kick me out of Priesthood meeting. You must realize that I lived for all this stuff. It was my greatest desire to become an elder in the church, and get married and raise a "good, priesthood family." And my second greatest desire was to make my Father and Mother proud of me. It would have killed me if they had found out about this. When I left his office Ruby called me and I told her I was going to have to stop talking to her. She freaked out on me and told me she loved me and all that stuff, so I kept talking to her on the phone.
Well, about two weeks later, Uncle Warren called me and told me to come see him again. So I went up there and he told me that Uncle Fred was having a little trouble with Ruby. She was being "rebellious." I was sitting there wondering when he was going to strip me of my priesthood. But instead he told me that I should keep talking to her and keep her encouraged in the good work. I thought that this was a pretty sweet deal. But, he told me that I had to tell him whatever we talked about. So I agreed and left. Anyway, we continued that way for a couple of months. Then her sisters and brothers throughout the community decided they needed to take her under their wing and safeguard her from me. They made up lies and rumors and all manner of absurdities that you can't even imagine. I couldn't even go into the community store without someone threatening me. I got messages every day on my cell phone from some of her brothers, one that is now ex-FLDS also, and Haven too. They all threatened to kill me. So I went to Uncle Warren and told him that I had had enough of it. I asked him if I could go back up to Salt Lake and work with my brothers again. My back was healing up, and I just wanted to get away. This was before the Olympics thing happened, and Father and Uncle Leroy were still running a kind of branch of the Church up in Salt Lake. So he let me go. But I still kept talking to Ruby on my cell phone. Twice sometimes three or four times a day she would call me. I didn't mind. I liked her still, I just couldn't stand the rest of the family. And if you know Uncle Fred's family at all you know that included just about the whole town. So every time one person heard a rumor, it spread like wildfire until it seemed like the whole town heard how bad of a person I was. I didn't really care.
We were working in Salt Lake when I got a call from Ruby. She told me she was going to ask her father, (Uncle Fred) if she could marry me. I told her not to. I told her he would never let me if she asked. But she said she didn't care. Then she asked me if I would leave with her if he said no. She wanted me to go get her and go live a life "out in the world." I told her that I couldn't do that. It was just so sudden, and I had never even thought about leaving before. I was scared, and she was only 14. That freaked me out. She told me she was going to ask anyway. I found out later that she did ask, and he blew up at her and told her she had to marry Haven. But I didn't get any calls from her for about two weeks. I thought for sure they had married her off and she wasn't being allowed to call me anymore. Then finally, she called me. She told me that Haven had sexually assaulted her on their wedding night. He had forced her to have sex with him. I was so mad, I almost got in my car and ran down there and killed him. I cried for three days straight. She was so sick, I could hear it in her voice. She told me that she couldn't stop bleeding. I told her to go and talk to one of her mothers or one of her sisters. She told me that they all told her it was the Lord's will and she would be fine. So I called Uncle Warren. I told him what she had told me, and he told me he would take care of it. I really trusted that he would.
Then I didn't hear from her for about a month. I had no idea what was going on. I was scared for her, but I was also told by more than one person that if I went down to CC, they would kill me. They, her brothers and the cops down there, told me to stay the hell away from the Creek. Some of Father's family was still living in CC and they called me all the time and told me that the cops had been pulling over our vehicles just to see if I was in the car. They also said that they came looking for me at the house. Then one day, I got a call from Haven. He asked me where the hell Ruby was. I told him I had no idea what he was talking about. He then handed the phone to Uncle Fred. I will quote Uncle Fred exactly. He said, "What the hell are you thinking Joseph? What have you done with my daughter?" I told him I had no idea what he was talking about. He asked me where I was. I told him I was in Salt Lake. At that very moment I was in the truck with my father. He asked me where I had been the previous night and day. I told him that I had been in Salt Lake working with Father and my brothers. Then I handed Father the phone and he confirmed it. Then Uncle Fred apologized and asked a little more cordially if I knew where Ruby was. I told him I had no idea where she was, and I wasn't lying. I really had no idea. Then I started getting some really nasty phone calls from all the sweet people at the Creek who were so good at keeping sweet when everything was going their way. So I just shut my phone off. I left it off for about four days.
On Saturday evening, I was on a job finishing up, and Father came rip roaring into the driveway and handed me his cell phone and told me to call Uncle Warren right then. So I did. Uncle Warren asked how quickly I could get down to CC. I told him I could leave right then and be there before midnight. He told me to. I had no idea what had happened or what was going on, but I got from Salt Lake to CC in three and a half hours. When I got there he told me to go to Uncle Fred first thing in the morning, and tell him that I was there to get Ruby back, no matter what it took. He told me I was on a mission and that I wasn't to go back to Salt Lake until Uncle Fred released me from that mission. So I went up to Uncle Fred's first thing in the morning, and boy oh boy did I feel out of place. I don't think I have ever felt so hated in my entire life. I told Uncle Fred what Uncle Warren had told me, and he told me to go find her and bring her back. I had no clue where to start. I had no idea who her brother Joe was, or where he was living. As I walked out of Uncle Fred's, her mother walked up to me and told me where to go to find her. She knew exactly where she was. I knew that Aunt Pat was facing the toughest decision of her life. I know it hurt her to see Ruby hurt. She actually liked me, and even covered for Ruby sometimes when she was sneaking out to meet me. She probably would have been just as happy if I had just left her at Joe's house.
So I went over there, and Joe told me that she was down at Quail lake with her other brother having a barbeque. So I went down there and found her. When she saw me her eyes lit up like diamonds. It was so good to see her. I told her I needed to talk to her. So she told her brother Robert that she was just going to go home with me. We drove around in St. George for a while. I had so many thoughts going through my mind at the time, and I was so confused. I didn't know what to tell her. She told me she was never going to go back if she had to go back to Haven. Before, when I met with Uncle Warren, he told me to keep him posted and to call him and let him know what she wanted. So I called him and told him that she didn't want to go back to Haven. He said OK, tell her she doesn't have to go back to him. She can just go back home and live like she was before she got married. Then he would decide what to do from there. I told her what he said, and she said she wanted to go back. So I started home. All the while I was thinking of some way that I could make it work if I left. Then we stopped in at my sister's house. I asked her what she thought I should do. I remember it like it was yesterday. She told me that I should follow my heart. But I didn't. I followed Warren instead. So I took her home. When I walked in the front door with Ruby behind me in pants and one of my shirts, I could have sworn that someone was going to pull a gun out and shoot me right then. The tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife. It was Sunday evening so the whole town was up seeing Uncle Fred. He took us into his little office right there and gave Ruby a big hug. He told her he loved her. Then he shook my hand and told me to leave. I went to our house down there and called Uncle Warren. He told me to stay the night there, but to head back to Salt Lake early in the morning. He told me when I got up there, that I should go for a camping trip up into the mountains for a couple of weeks. So I did. When I got back from the camping trip Ruby was in Canada. She had left me a bunch of messages on my phone. When she finally did get ahold of me, she told me thank you and that she loved me and she never wanted to be with anyone but me. I told her that if we were both faithful and kept praying for it, then maybe the Lord would put us together someday.
About six to eight months later she got remarried to Haven. Yes, I did get told by one of Uncle Fred's sons that if I ever called her or was caught with her again it would be the last thing I ever did. So I was pretty scared. I just stayed away from CC for about a year after that. I guess the distance caused us to grow apart, or they brainwashed her so much that she finally gave up on me. I didn't know how to get a hold of her, so I had to wait for her to call me. For those six to eight months she still called, but the calls slowly got fewer and farther between. Then one day she called me and told me she was pregnant. I asked her if she was happy? She said she didn't know. She said it didn't matter, all that mattered was making her father and mother happy. Then that was it.
I left about two years ago, after my father got kicked out. It took me a while to sort out all that stuff in my head, and to finally come to the conclusion that Warren was just so messed up in the head that its not even funny. There is no better man on the earth than my father. He gave his all for the "work." He has an honest heart and a good mind. For warren to say that he was aspiring and not treating his family right was just so absurd, I couldn't ever come to terms with it. Believe me I tried to, but I just never could feel peace in my heart after Warren took over. It just proved to me that what he accused Father of must be the very things he was guilty of.
I am now married to Teresa Blackmore. She is Richard Blackmore's daughter. I could never ask for a better girl. She is the best thing that ever happened to me. We had a little girl on September 24, and she is now about a month and a half old. She is so beautiful and sweet, and I just don't see how my father or any of the other men survived having their families ripped away from them. I would kill anyone that ever tried to take my little family away from me.
Atari; I think it was wonderful of you to take the time to tell this story to everyone in Joseph's words. I believe it came from him, because it is worded just like he talks.
Joseph, if you are reading this, congratulations on your new baby, and wonderful life. I wish the very best for you and your family. I know how it feels to have all the "saints" in CC tell lies and destroy your reputation. I know how it feels to have your famly, who have put everything they have heart and soul into the gospel, torn apart and sent away to "repent" of something that they won't even tell you that you have done wrong.
But I think that it is awesome that you went on and made a good life for yourself. That is what it is all about. Standing on your own two feet. Hang in there, because I really believe that one of these days, things will change. Someday we will have the associations of our loved ones again. But until then, do not ever give up on the ones you love!
If anyone is wondering what drives Flora, the last sentence of Part 7 should answer any questions. I feel the same way about my family.
And for the Ex-FLDS...let's all re-committ ourselves to encouraging and helping our families under Warren's control to leave. Let's continue to communicate by example, showing our loved ones that there is a wonderful life outside of the religion.
It is my hope that this post will offer hope to the hopeless, love to those who know not love and justice to those who, for reasons known only to Warren Jeffs, are now separated from those whom they love. God will serve Justice upon those who are deserving. Warren is not just, but GOD is!
Thats the funniest story I have ever heard ,sounds like we need to make a movie out of it. Lost love at the Creek. Starring Joseph Roebuck and Flora Jessop.And for the FLDS let's all re-committ ourselves to encouraging and helping our families under Monogamy Control to Leave. Let's continue to communicate by exammple showing our loved ones that there is a wonderful life inside Polygamous Relationships.
congrats! joe and tresa and little one. another way of the miracle of life and hope continuing on. thank you for sharing your story joe. it seems our stories are the history of it all. i guess we are all looking for the truth and a happy ending.best wishes for a year of wonderful stories and experiences of joy.
To all the FLDS women who have been passed from man to man, whether by choice or "priesthood" appointment, I dedicate these words written by Tim Rice.
Another Suitcase in Another Hall
I don't expect my love affairs to last for long, Never fool myself that my dreams will come true. Being used to trouble, I anticipate it. But, all the same, I hate it. Wouldn't you?
So what happens now? Another suitcase in another hall. So what happens now? Take your picture off another wall. Where am I going to? You'll get by you always have before. Where am I going to?
Time and time again I said that I don't care, That I'm immune to gloom, that I am hard through and through. But, every time it matters, all my words desert me, So anyone can hurt me, and they do.
So what happens now? Another suitcase in another hall. So what happens now? Take your picture off another wall. Where am I going to? You'll get by you always have before. Where am I going to?
Only three months time and I'll be fine I know. Well, maybe not that fine, but I'll survive anyhow. I won't recall the names and faces of each sad occasion, But that's no consolation here and now.
So what happens now? Another suitcase in another hall. So what happens now? Take your picture off another wall. Where am I going to? You'll get by you always have before. Where am I going to? Don't ask anymore.
I apologize to all, this my last post on any blog. For ignorance is bliss and I am getting in your way.
I knew Joseph really well for a long time, I had a lot of respect for him until I found out it was he who was chasing Ruby. But I saw him quietly sitting with Uncle Fred in 2003, and they were both smiling, and when they departed company they warmly shook hands.
I only say this before I go: If Joseph was 18 when he started chasing Ruby (or "Ruby chased me" as he put it). According to my time-line she would have been 12. Anybody approve of that for your daughter, eh Joe?
I do not know the "rape" story, so I cannot honestly refute it, but I know I am guilty of much less than that and I have been sent away like Josephs father and brother. So, of course I have a lot of questions about it that I really don't want to ask. I think even Ruby would prefer I drop it.
I will tell you a story about my little sister: She was being chased around by a boy only one year older than her, when she was 15. To the FLDS if a boy chases a girl then it means he is immoral. He can't wait. Girls are more important than God. I went to my sister and asked her about it, and asked her if she enjoyed his company, and she shrugged her shoulders. Then I said. My dear sister, I am your brother, and I want to tell you that your virtue is worth as much to me as my very life. I then asked her if he was bothering her or if she enjoyed the attention. She said, not really. So I told her I would go and talk to this boy, and to please ignore him. I found him walking down the street, and I asked him if he liked my sister, and he said yes, and I said that is fine if you are friends*, but just remember, her virtue is worth more to me than my life, and if you are attempting to interfere with that, please know that you are threatening my life. That fellow called me on my phone about three hours later and thanked me up and down. For he had a sister too, and it made him think about it more.
This fellow is now one of the "lost boys". My sister? She is happily married to one of the best young men I have ever met.
I don't know, but if you people think Joe is innocent, then I sincerely apologize for intruding. I have nothing more to add.
FAREWELL, and I am sure you all say "GOOD RIDDANCE!"
*(I am sure this is what Uncle Warren meant when he talked with Joe, not to keep dating her.)
anon... that poetry is more realistic than you will ever know. When my father got kicked out, they took all the pictures and burned them. "Take the pictures down." Man does that ever hit close to home. Mother was going to throw all her pictures of me away, but luckily, I went and got them before she did. It's just how the poem says, forget the past aquaintances in a few months and carry on with your life like nothing ever happened. Like your loved ones never existed. Thank you all for your encouragement. My little girls name is Tamika Jolie. She is the most beautiful little girl.
annon 12:04 you really are twisted if you thought that story was funny.
Street isn't it nice how in our own dreams we are the good guy in HEAVEN casting judgement on others.Sweet dreams street.Life is always better there.
Street are you living your life right now like there is no Heaven to go to?Like this might be all there is.You know like this might be our only chance.Don't get me wrong I believe in Heaven .But I also believe that we can create a Heaven on earth.Judging and pushing our loved ones away from us is not heavenly it can't even feel the slightest bit rihgt.What ever happened to forgiveness.Do you believe that all these good things wait to haoppen to us in Heaven?I don't.You can't tell me that a mom that pushes her kids out of her life for any reason is going to Heaven because that to me would be a living hell .How can a mom love herself or the guy who tells her to cast her kids out?????Seems to me that a mom would have to have hatred in her heart to get to the point that she would turn her back on her child.Don't we need to be pure in heart to get into heaven?( Street some of your posts on here are far from pure ) How do these moms expect to explain to God that they didn't finnish the job he gave them.They threw their kids away cuz some man told them to. Women will be held accountable too.
I do appreciate your sincerity, and won't be happy to see you go.
I do understand how it feels to be somewhere where you are not understood or appreciated. I don't think that is the case for you here, but it sounds like it feels that way.
plig... I don't know how you think you know my age, but I turned 19 the day before ruby turned 15. Her birthday is May 3, and mine is May 2. Whatever. I could tell by your posts that you have something against me. I never hurt Ruby, and I never would have. So this "virtue" you talk of was completely intact. And her mother wasn't one bit worried about us. I had many conversations with her mother and she always asked me if I was keeping it clean with Ruby and I was happy to say that I was, and I did. When I left uncle Fred's company I bet I did shake his hand, but what did you expect me to do, yell and curse at him and severe any minute chance I had for a future in that place. Come on man, or woman, whatever you are. You have got to have more sense in that head of yours than that. Why did I lose your respect when you found out I was the one that liked Ruby? Did you like her too? If you have some unresolved issues that are keeping you from being happy and you would like to work through them, then email me. I would be happy to help.
by the way... I never said I was innocent. I have made many mistakes, and if I could go back I would do things so much different. But I can tell by the way you talk that you still believe in warren, and so you must still think that to even look at a girl is sin. If that is a sin, then boy oh boy am I guilty. It is also a sin to love someone out there. And yes, I am very guilty of that too. Sorry, but I am not ashamed. I never broke any of the ten commandments. And I never hurt anyone. That's more than I can say for a lot of the "Holy people" that are being prepped for Zion. That is, if they make enough money, or have some talent that is useful to Warren.
I am sorry you got sent away. A lot of people I know got sent away for nothing. I am a personal witness to this. But you need to get over it and get on with you life. Find someone or something that can give you happiness. I don't mean that rudely. I just have seen too many men that have been kicked out, and they think their life is over. But it's not. God would have taken your life if it was over. But He didn't and He must have left you on this earth for some reason. So go and do something good with your life. God gave each of us gifts and if we don't use them and help others with them, then we are the ones that are going to be held accountable. I don't believe in any religion right now, but I do believe there is a God. And I know that He did not send us here to be miserable. God is love. Love is absent in CC and wherever Warren rules. So go and love, and be happy. That is what life is all about.
Good stuff Joseph. You've turned out great. I like your way of thinking.. Does John and your Dad share simmilar oppinions? I was closest to them growing up. Good men, even if we did have our challenges (I was a rebbel). I saw them a few months ago, they looked great.
Hey Rumor Has It....You are mighty quiet lately...What is happening in your neck of the woods? C'mon girl! We "outsiders" depend on you for our news!! What's up?
Uncle Warren never said " it was a sin to look at a girl", what he said was, and I quote him exactly. " young men, when you look at a girl, do you just look with your earthly eyes? or do you look with your spiritual eyes? I will tell you what to do, young men. When you look at a young woman, think of her good father, don't lust after her as the would would call it. That is death to you and her. When you do look at a girl, thing of her as a goddess, and think of her good Father, and then say a prayer asking Hevenly Father to guild your thoughts, so that they will be clean and pure." Let the Lord do the connections through his servant here upon the earth. Those who let the Lord choose who they should marry, will get the wery best. " the Lord gives the Very Best to those who leave the choice to him." (wsj)
"Treat the girls like rattlesnakes. Don't even look at them. When you are tempted to look at a girl, say a prayer and look the other way. Girls, keep the bars up. Don't let the boys touch you. If a boy starts giving you attention, ignore him and just go the other way."
Need I say more. If that's not the definition of sin, I don't know what is. God made us attracted to each other. It is only natural and beautiful. This training is only to brainwash the minds of the young people so that people like WARREN and Wendell can have the first choice of all the hot girls. Without the threat of competition from the young men.
Is arranged marriage anywhere in your scriptures - or is it something warren came up with on the fly? (I mean lots of other cultures do it....but is it new to FLDS?)
My father and mother were married by arrangement in 1970. I think that is about when they started doing it. They only did it to those that wanted to be married that way though. Even when Rulon Jeffs was in power, every time he put a marriage together he would ask the girl if there was someone that she had in mind.
Yes, they teach the children that the man their mother married is their only father. They don't have pictures and they are not even to mention their old father's names.
yeah, I had listened to that song many times; it has always been a favorite of mine. But, the other day I listened to it and every verse reminded me of the social and spiritual catastrophe occurring in our church's families.
The words "immune to gloom" reminded me of keep sweet-no matter what. While I see the sense in peacefulness, I also recognize the truth that, as human beings, we are not mono-emotional. Oh, yes, and neither is God by the way. Can you picture Jesus keeping sweet while he whipped the money changers in the temple. Oh, come on! try to picture it one more time!
I had the experience as a child of my mother remarrying several times. I got to feel first hand what it was like to be told "He is not your father any more. This is your Priesthood Father, your only father." As a child, I was willing to adapt; I accepted it and pretended it was so. Then my father changed, again and again. The whole experience hurt me very deeply, but recently I have been able to see that living as a child through it has made me determined to never put my own children through it. The consequences are very real to me, as I believe they will be to the rising generation of the FLDS. The children of the broken homes will not have the same viewpoint as their parents. It is very different to be the child of divorce than to be the adult choosing the divorce. The consequences of a broken home are not real to Warren and many of the adults who lived in homes where their parents were together for their entire childhoods, but the rising generation will feel the pain like raw, open wounds. The parents may experience bliss and enjoy the variety, but the children will have a story to tell that isn't so romantic.
Not So !. Uncle Roy taught us that arranged marriages was a part of the Lords work in this world, and the world before this one, and the world before that one.
The FLDS (and maybe the Centennial Park group) has practiced the "Law of Placement" (arranged marriages) for decades. The prophet is the one who decides (according to his revelation from God) who "marries" whom. The girl is usually asked if she is in agreement with this "divine" choice of life-long mates, but what young teenage "bride" would doubt the "revelation" of the prophet and say NO - I DON'T want to marry this man - and risk eternal damnation for not obeying God's desire and the prophet's desire/revelation.
It is a sad situation for many young girls (and boys). This is one reason why dating is not allowed and the young are taught to despise (avoid at all costs - like Joseph said "Treat the girls like rattlesnakes.") because the prophet calls the shots.
Thus we have the conflict of free choice - is she making a FREE CHOICE? Or is she being railroaded into "marrying" this man because of fear of ostricism, possible alienation of friends and/or family, or worse yet - ETERNAL DAMNATION?
Lately, in the FLDS, this "Law of Placement" also is severely affecting the already "married" members - if they fall out of favour, they are "reassigned" (Placed with someone who is considered to be a more worthy follower)
Joseph and Atar-i,the arranged marrages started in 1959-60,when Marrion Hammon came to short creek to pull the UEP out of debt.the UEP property was up for sale for non payment of taxes(this was hidden from us by the preisthood council)brother Hammon told them he would come to short creek and motivate the people toall go to work and pay off all uep debts,but he wanted to "run things".one of the first things he did was start the marriage thing, the council seems to have half heartedly tryed to institute it before,but had some opposition. there was some rational for the idea,because of young men taking more responsability than they could handle,(anyway that was one of the talking points).Marrion started the "work mission" program,and I was in the second groupe of boys called,we were to spend two years "building the kingdom" then we would be"given A wife,and piece of property".I hadent yet finished my mission,but in may of 1961,my " step father"told me I was supposed to marry his daughter,(I found out later, that one of the council members was after her,and her dad wanted her to marry me),anyway,on may 9 1961,I was married to Irene Jessop,the same day Ray Jessop and Karen beagly,David Stubbs and Salley Pledger, were married "by revelation and Comandment",we were the second groupe to be thus "blessed".the first groupe included, Gerald steed and Lillien black,Leo Pledger and Tanna Laurtzen,and Richard Fischer And Ann lauritzen. anyway,thats how I rember it. for what its worth. Andrew Bistline.
Atar_i: "The LDS are really into genealogy - for the baptism of the dead I assume."
Correct.
"Is arranged marriage anywhere in your scriptures"
So far as I remember, it isn't mentioned anywhere specifically. There is one verse in the Book of Mormon which could, I guess, be interpreted that way:
4th Nephi 4:11 "And they were married and given in marriage"
Some, I suppose, might interpret that as meaning that people both married of their own will and were arranged marriages against their will, but that is certainly not the position of the LDS church.
Joeseph: "If that's not the definition of sin, I don't know what is."
Joe, your quote certainly sounds pretty bad, but without any context at all, it's impossible to know whether it's a definition of sin, as you allege; or whether in its proper context, it would indicate something altogether different.
"God made us attracted to each other. It is only natural and beautiful"
Please don't take this the wrong way -- I'm not trying to imply anything about you, and I'm not even sure that it's relevant to the topic. But that is the exact same protest that gay people make against the LDS church's policies. That the act's divine purity is self evident by its pleasantness. But Satan will dress up all sorts of evil acts as pleasant, so that humans are tempted by them.
Please understand Joe, I'm not attacking you. I actually sympathize with you and your story. I'm just trying to see things from an FLDS perspective, for the sake of argument and, oh, let's say I'm trying to understand a bit better where the FLDS are coming from.
Because the FLDS do strike me a rather strange, but I guess they're still God's children, and my brothers and sisters in Christ.
This is my first time posting here. Although I read it often, I didn't think I would ever post, but Joseph's story moved me to, expecially when he mentioned his new baby daughter. It reminded me of a small picture I saw the other day that simply stated..."Children are God's way of telling us that life goes on". No one on either side of this conflict can honestly deny the simple truth of that statement. Congratulations on the new family Joe. All the best to you and yours.
The FLDS has been so busy with the "new" teachings they don't have time for such. When the dust settles, they are definately going to need some journals from their fathers and so GENEALOGY to find out where they come from, so they can figure out where they are going.
That is the pinacle of my argument, "All the new teachings." God said, "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever." So why all the sudden do we have all these new teachings. I'll tell you why, it is so warren can keep his little finger on the people and just like a puppet master move them and control them at his will. The people out there are so into it, they would do anything, I mean ANYTHING that he told them to do. Wether it came from prison or not. It is so sad. I wish people would realize that God gave them their free agency for a reason.
The doctrine of placement marriages can actually be traced back to John Y Barlow in Short Creek back in the 40's According to Arnold Boss' journal, the idea was proposed while most of the council was in prison in 1945. It was thought to be a way to control the numbers of wives men were taking. John Y and Joseph Musser disagreed sharply on this, and it became one of the main dividing points that caused the Musser/Allred split. Today, the AUB (Allred group) does not practice placement, but the followers of the leadership in Short Creek still do. If you get a chance to talk to old timers in the group who married each other back in the early 40's courted each other, they weren't placed. As far as I am concerned, it was one step on the way to total control.
We're slowly getting it back to its roots. As far as having a direct written revelation, there is not one. It is indirectly taken from the revelations of Joseph Smith. Placement marrriage was practiced in JS's day and Brigham Young's, John Taylor's and so on. Was every marriage a placement marriage? No. In the earlier days of the church there was very little of it. In John Y. Barlow's day there was an increase of it, but still there were many marriages that were not placement marriages. The courting that took place at least in some instances I am aware of were actually assigned marriages. The parties were advised to court to see if the marriage would fit both the prospective bride and groom. Some did not. I know of marriages after John Barlow's day until the end of Rulon Jeffs that were not assigned by the 'prophet'. If a man and a woman felt they were meant for each other it was considered for a union. Not all of these resulted in a marriage. Some of them were older men whom young girls wanted to marry. The girl ended up marrying a man much closer to her age. And yes, some of the young girls that wanted to marry a young man ended up marrying an older man. It has worked both ways. There have been girls that were 'placed' that decided they would not marry the man designated. They ended up getting married to someone whom they chose. I have mentioned girls making choices. It was not as frequent to my knowledge that the men made choices of brides but I do know it has happened.
This is something that has really changed with the teachings of warren. He has taught that it is wrong to seek for yourself the will of God in your behalf beyond a testimony that he is leading you right. If you follow his teachings exactly that is the only thing you will ask of Him for yourself.
I've kind of rambled but I hope I gave somewhat of an answer. Placement marriage in other cultures has the same roots as it does in ours. JS simply restored principles that had been around since Adam and lost. These very often fly in the face of people that have other traditons imbedded into their being.
I understood your posting very well. Not being FLDS it is difficult to understand the thinking of anyone who would give themselves over completely to the whim of a mere man. Sure, I know he is a self proclaimed prophet but, so what? The 11/14/11:33 posting is the real eye opener. This individual didn't know who his "true" father was because a MAN kept moving he/she and their mother from family to family. where is the familial stability?
How can anyone think that those who experience such trama will not, in all likleyhood repeat the same with their wives and children. Reminds me of an old popular song from the early '50's, "Whatever Lola wants Lola gets. Take a chance, you know you can't win." In this instance the prophet is Lola, you are the victim of whim.
I only know of placement marriage in a different culture.
The family of the bride and the family of the groom seek out prospective mates of the same social and economic status, religion, and consider compstability. It's a deal that's good for both families.
Usually they meet, and the individuals have to agree to the process, and then they agree to the selection.
I don't know the statistics on divorce, but I wouldn't aniticipate them to be any worse than a non-placement marriage.
Because, in reality, although the finding of the mate, and matching was out of their control, all throughout the process they have the ability to halt or veto. The families I have known realize that it might not always work, and do not provide undue pressure. They just keep on looking if something doesn't work out.
If you can't provide that - I think it's a situation ripe for future unhappiness and problems.
I think if a child does want that sort of placement that the parents should be brokering that sort of deal, and if they need help, perhaps warren can play yente, and offer suggestions - but it should be the parents.
Val probably won't be allowed to return unless his ticket back in was Lawrene. Val is a honest and noble man, but accepting Lawrene back may have hurt his chances. Lawrene shared many secrets about the FLDS with the outside world, expecially with Flora. Lawrene has probably hurt his chances.
I met Joseph Rohbock in 2002, and I gaind a lot of respect for him. I had heard plenty of the rumers. He had more love for his Father and the "preisthood" then any one his age that I new.
Joseph congrats on your new baby, I am glad that you realised ther's more fish in the sea, and made a life for yourself. The best of luck. And I am truly greatfull that I got the chance to meet you.
Yes, I noticed, I think Val gave orders to disable the computer or not to use it at all since they moved. Lawrene lives with the master of lies right now and she believes him. This is the only world she feels comfortable with.
It would be interesting to listen to the recordings or to obtain transcriptions of Vals conversations with Laurene. They could be compared with OTS's postings to see how close they match. I know Flora has quite a few of these. They are quite frightening to listen to. Does anyone know where Laurene's fiance is, is he still in contact with her? Last I heard, he was quite broken over her loss. They loved eachother dearly.
PART ONE
ReplyDeleteI moved to CC after our house got built in 1999. I was working for Guy Allred at Allco because I had just had back surgery and I was not able to do construction with my brothers at the time. Anyway, the lifestyle down there was totally different than what I was used to in Salt Lake. I had never talked to a girl before, and when Ruby started flirting and paying attention to me, I thought it was pretty cool. So I sent it right back, never dreaming of what I was getting myself into. We just flirted for a little while, and then she started calling me. I thought that was even cooler although I was pretty scared that I would get in trouble. You have to realize that I had been taught all my life that even to talk to a girl was a huge sin. I really was scared. Anyway, it progressed to where I snuck out one night and went and met her. We talked and, yes I kissed her. It was almost intoxicating. I had never felt anything like it in my life. But at the same time, my guilt was killing me. Then someone told me that they were monitoring the phone calls that the girls were making from their rooms. That really got me scared, so I went to Uncle Warren and told him what was going on. He asked me if I had told her I loved her or touched her or kissed her. I told him no. So he cussed me out and told me if I wasn't careful then he was going to kick me out of Priesthood meeting. You must realize that I lived for all this stuff. It was my greatest desire to become an elder in the church, and get married and raise a "good, priesthood family." And my second greatest desire was to make my Father and Mother proud of me. It would have killed me if they had found out about this. When I left his office Ruby called me and I told her I was going to have to stop talking to her. She freaked out on me and told me she loved me and all that stuff, so I kept talking to her on the phone.
PART TWO
ReplyDeleteWell, about two weeks later, Uncle Warren called me and told me to come see him again. So I went up there and he told me that Uncle Fred was having a little trouble with Ruby. She was being "rebellious." I was sitting there wondering when he was going to strip me of my priesthood. But instead he told me that I should keep talking to her and keep her encouraged in the good work. I thought that this was a pretty sweet deal. But, he told me that I had to tell him whatever we talked about. So I agreed and left. Anyway, we continued that way for a couple of months. Then her sisters and brothers throughout the community decided they needed to take her under their wing and safeguard her from me. They made up lies and rumors and all manner of absurdities that you can't even imagine. I couldn't even go into the community store without someone threatening me. I got messages every day on my cell phone from some of her brothers, one that is now ex-FLDS also, and Haven too. They all threatened to kill me. So I went to Uncle Warren and told him that I had had enough of it. I asked him if I could go back up to Salt Lake and work with my brothers again. My back was healing up, and I just wanted to get away. This was before the Olympics thing happened, and Father and Uncle Leroy were still running a kind of branch of the Church up in Salt Lake. So he let me go. But I still kept talking to Ruby on my cell phone. Twice sometimes three or four times a day she would call me. I didn't mind. I liked her still, I just couldn't stand the rest of the family. And if you know Uncle Fred's family at all you know that included just about the whole town. So every time one person heard a rumor, it spread like wildfire until it seemed like the whole town heard how bad of a person I was. I didn't really care.
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ReplyDeletePART THREE
ReplyDeleteWe were working in Salt Lake when I got a call from Ruby. She told me she was going to ask her father, (Uncle Fred) if she could marry me. I told her not to. I told her he would never let me if she asked. But she said she didn't care. Then she asked me if I would leave with her if he said no. She wanted me to go get her and go live a life "out in the world." I told her that I couldn't do that. It was just so sudden, and I had never even thought about leaving before. I was scared, and she was only 14. That freaked me out. She told me she was going to ask anyway. I found out later that she did ask, and he blew up at her and told her she had to marry Haven. But I didn't get any calls from her for about two weeks. I thought for sure they had married her off and she wasn't being allowed to call me anymore. Then finally, she called me. She told me that Haven had sexually assaulted her on their wedding night. He had forced her to have sex with him. I was so mad, I almost got in my car and ran down there and killed him. I cried for three days straight. She was so sick, I could hear it in her voice. She told me that she couldn't stop bleeding. I told her to go and talk to one of her mothers or one of her sisters. She told me that they all told her it was the Lord's will and she would be fine. So I called Uncle Warren. I told him what she had told me, and he told me he would take care of it. I really trusted that he would.
PART FOUR
ReplyDeleteThen I didn't hear from her for about a month. I had no idea what was going on. I was scared for her, but I was also told by more than one person that if I went down to CC, they would kill me. They, her brothers and the cops down there, told me to stay the hell away from the Creek. Some of Father's family was still living in CC and they called me all the time and told me that the cops had been pulling over our vehicles just to see if I was in the car. They also said that they came looking for me at the house. Then one day, I got a call from Haven. He asked me where the hell Ruby was. I told him I had no idea what he was talking about. He then handed the phone to Uncle Fred. I will quote Uncle Fred exactly. He said, "What the hell are you thinking Joseph? What have you done with my daughter?" I told him I had no idea what he was talking about. He asked me where I was. I told him I was in Salt Lake. At that very moment I was in the truck with my father. He asked me where I had been the previous night and day. I told him that I had been in Salt Lake working with Father and my brothers. Then I handed Father the phone and he confirmed it. Then Uncle Fred apologized and asked a little more cordially if I knew where Ruby was. I told him I had no idea where she was, and I wasn't lying. I really had no idea. Then I started getting some really nasty phone calls from all the sweet people at the Creek who were so good at keeping sweet when everything was going their way. So I just shut my phone off. I left it off for about four days.
PART FIVE
ReplyDeleteOn Saturday evening, I was on a job finishing up, and Father came rip roaring into the driveway and handed me his cell phone and told me to call Uncle Warren right then. So I did. Uncle Warren asked how quickly I could get down to CC. I told him I could leave right then and be there before midnight. He told me to. I had no idea what had happened or what was going on, but I got from Salt Lake to CC in three and a half hours. When I got there he told me to go to Uncle Fred first thing in the morning, and tell him that I was there to get Ruby back, no matter what it took. He told me I was on a mission and that I wasn't to go back to Salt Lake until Uncle Fred released me from that mission. So I went up to Uncle Fred's first thing in the morning, and boy oh boy did I feel out of place. I don't think I have ever felt so hated in my entire life. I told Uncle Fred what Uncle Warren had told me, and he told me to go find her and bring her back. I had no clue where to start. I had no idea who her brother Joe was, or where he was living. As I walked out of Uncle Fred's, her mother walked up to me and told me where to go to find her. She knew exactly where she was. I knew that Aunt Pat was facing the toughest decision of her life. I know it hurt her to see Ruby hurt. She actually liked me, and even covered for Ruby sometimes when she was sneaking out to meet me. She probably would have been just as happy if I had just left her at Joe's house.
PART SIX
ReplyDeleteSo I went over there, and Joe told me that she was down at Quail lake with her other brother having a barbeque. So I went down there and found her. When she saw me her eyes lit up like diamonds. It was so good to see her. I told her I needed to talk to her. So she told her brother Robert that she was just going to go home with me. We drove around in St. George for a while. I had so many thoughts going through my mind at the time, and I was so confused. I didn't know what to tell her. She told me she was never going to go back if she had to go back to Haven. Before, when I met with Uncle Warren, he told me to keep him posted and to call him and let him know what she wanted. So I called him and told him that she didn't want to go back to Haven. He said OK, tell her she doesn't have to go back to him. She can just go back home and live like she was before she got married. Then he would decide what to do from there. I told her what he said, and she said she wanted to go back. So I started home. All the while I was thinking of some way that I could make it work if I left. Then we stopped in at my sister's house. I asked her what she thought I should do. I remember it like it was yesterday. She told me that I should follow my heart. But I didn't. I followed Warren instead. So I took her home. When I walked in the front door with Ruby behind me in pants and one of my shirts, I could have sworn that someone was going to pull a gun out and shoot me right then. The tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife. It was Sunday evening so the whole town was up seeing Uncle Fred. He took us into his little office right there and gave Ruby a big hug. He told her he loved her. Then he shook my hand and told me to leave. I went to our house down there and called Uncle Warren. He told me to stay the night there, but to head back to Salt Lake early in the morning. He told me when I got up there, that I should go for a camping trip up into the mountains for a couple of weeks. So I did. When I got back from the camping trip Ruby was in Canada. She had left me a bunch of messages on my phone. When she finally did get ahold of me, she told me thank you and that she loved me and she never wanted to be with anyone but me. I told her that if we were both faithful and kept praying for it, then maybe the Lord would put us together someday.
PART SEVEN
ReplyDeleteAbout six to eight months later she got remarried to Haven. Yes, I did get told by one of Uncle Fred's sons that if I ever called her or was caught with her again it would be the last thing I ever did. So I was pretty scared. I just stayed away from CC for about a year after that. I guess the distance caused us to grow apart, or they brainwashed her so much that she finally gave up on me. I didn't know how to get a hold of her, so I had to wait for her to call me. For those six to eight months she still called, but the calls slowly got fewer and farther between. Then one day she called me and told me she was pregnant. I asked her if she was happy? She said she didn't know. She said it didn't matter, all that mattered was making her father and mother happy. Then that was it.
I left about two years ago, after my father got kicked out. It took me a while to sort out all that stuff in my head, and to finally come to the conclusion that Warren was just so messed up in the head that its not even funny. There is no better man on the earth than my father. He gave his all for the "work." He has an honest heart and a good mind. For warren to say that he was aspiring and not treating his family right was just so absurd, I couldn't ever come to terms with it. Believe me I tried to, but I just never could feel peace in my heart after Warren took over. It just proved to me that what he accused Father of must be the very things he was guilty of.
I am now married to Teresa Blackmore. She is Richard Blackmore's daughter. I could never ask for a better girl. She is the best thing that ever happened to me. We had a little girl on September 24, and she is now about a month and a half old. She is so beautiful and sweet, and I just don't see how my father or any of the other men survived having their families ripped away from them. I would kill anyone that ever tried to take my little family away from me.
Atar_i can you change the spelling of Joseph's last name. It is Rohbock.
ReplyDeletethanks anon
ReplyDeleteAtari; I think it was wonderful of you to take the time to tell this story to everyone in Joseph's words. I believe it came from him, because it is worded just like he talks.
ReplyDeleteJoseph, if you are reading this, congratulations on your new baby, and wonderful life. I wish the very best for you and your family. I know how it feels to have all the "saints" in CC tell lies and destroy your reputation. I know how it feels to have your famly, who have put everything they have heart and soul into the gospel, torn apart and sent away to "repent" of something that they won't even tell you that you have done wrong.
But I think that it is awesome that you went on and made a good life for yourself. That is what it is all about. Standing on your own two feet. Hang in there, because I really believe that one of these days, things will change. Someday we will have the associations of our loved ones again. But until then, do not ever give up on the ones you love!
Joseph, I have a similar story about a girl I liked in C.C. I completely understand how you feel.
ReplyDeleteAnon... Thank you for your encouragement. You talk like you have experience.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone is wondering what drives Flora, the last sentence of Part 7 should answer any questions. I feel the same way about my family.
ReplyDeleteAnd for the Ex-FLDS...let's all re-committ ourselves to encouraging and helping our families under Warren's control to leave. Let's continue to communicate by example, showing our loved ones that there is a wonderful life outside of the religion.
It is my hope that this post will offer hope to the hopeless, love to those who know not love and justice to those who, for reasons known only to Warren Jeffs, are now separated from those whom they love. God will serve Justice upon those who are deserving. Warren is not just, but GOD is!
ReplyDeleteThats the funniest story I have ever heard ,sounds like we need to make a movie out of it. Lost love at the Creek. Starring Joseph Roebuck and Flora Jessop.And for the FLDS let's all re-committ ourselves to encouraging and helping our families under Monogamy Control to Leave. Let's continue to communicate by exammple showing our loved ones that there is a wonderful life inside Polygamous Relationships.
ReplyDeleteI do have experience Joseph. Maybe I could share my story with you sometime. Maybe you could have some answers.
ReplyDeletecongrats! joe and tresa and little one. another way of the miracle of life and hope continuing on. thank you for sharing your story joe. it seems our stories are the history of it all. i guess we are all looking for the truth and a happy ending.best wishes for a year of wonderful stories and experiences of joy.
ReplyDeleteTo all the FLDS women who have been passed from man to man, whether by choice or "priesthood" appointment, I dedicate these words written by Tim Rice.
ReplyDeleteAnother Suitcase in Another Hall
I don't expect my love affairs to last for long,
Never fool myself that my dreams will come true.
Being used to trouble, I anticipate it.
But, all the same, I hate it. Wouldn't you?
So what happens now?
Another suitcase in another hall.
So what happens now?
Take your picture off another wall.
Where am I going to?
You'll get by you always have before.
Where am I going to?
Time and time again I said that I don't care,
That I'm immune to gloom, that I am hard through and through.
But, every time it matters, all my words desert me,
So anyone can hurt me, and they do.
So what happens now?
Another suitcase in another hall.
So what happens now?
Take your picture off another wall.
Where am I going to?
You'll get by you always have before.
Where am I going to?
Only three months time and I'll be fine I know.
Well, maybe not that fine, but I'll survive anyhow.
I won't recall the names and faces of each sad occasion,
But that's no consolation here and now.
So what happens now?
Another suitcase in another hall.
So what happens now?
Take your picture off another wall.
Where am I going to?
You'll get by you always have before.
Where am I going to?
Don't ask anymore.
I apologize to all, this my last post on any blog. For ignorance is bliss and I am getting in your way.
ReplyDeleteI knew Joseph really well for a long time, I had a lot of respect for him until I found out it was he who was chasing Ruby. But I saw him quietly sitting with Uncle Fred in 2003, and they were both smiling, and when they departed company they warmly shook hands.
I only say this before I go: If Joseph was 18 when he started chasing Ruby (or "Ruby chased me" as he put it). According to my time-line she would have been 12. Anybody approve of that for your daughter, eh Joe?
I do not know the "rape" story, so I cannot honestly refute it, but I know I am guilty of much less than that and I have been sent away like Josephs father and brother. So, of course I have a lot of questions about it that I really don't want to ask. I think even Ruby would prefer I drop it.
I will tell you a story about my little sister:
She was being chased around by a boy only one year older than her, when she was 15. To the FLDS if a boy chases a girl then it means he is immoral. He can't wait. Girls are more important than God. I went to my sister and asked her about it, and asked her if she enjoyed his company, and she shrugged her shoulders. Then I said. My dear sister, I am your brother, and I want to tell you that your virtue is worth as much to me as my very life. I then asked her if he was bothering her or if she enjoyed the attention. She said, not really. So I told her I would go and talk to this boy, and to please ignore him. I found him walking down the street, and I asked him if he liked my sister, and he said yes, and I said that is fine if you are friends*, but just remember, her virtue is worth more to me than my life, and if you are attempting to interfere with that, please know that you are threatening my life. That fellow called me on my phone about three hours later and thanked me up and down. For he had a sister too, and it made him think about it more.
This fellow is now one of the "lost boys". My sister? She is happily married to one of the best young men I have ever met.
I don't know, but if you people think Joe is innocent, then I sincerely apologize for intruding. I have nothing more to add.
FAREWELL, and I am sure you all say
"GOOD RIDDANCE!"
*(I am sure this is what Uncle Warren meant when he talked with Joe, not to keep dating her.)
anon... that poetry is more realistic than you will ever know. When my father got kicked out, they took all the pictures and burned them. "Take the pictures down." Man does that ever hit close to home. Mother was going to throw all her pictures of me away, but luckily, I went and got them before she did. It's just how the poem says, forget the past aquaintances in a few months and carry on with your life like nothing ever happened. Like your loved ones never existed. Thank you all for your encouragement. My little girls name is Tamika Jolie. She is the most beautiful little girl.
ReplyDeleteannon 12:04 you really are twisted if you thought that story was funny.
ReplyDeleteStreet isn't it nice how in our own dreams we are the good guy in HEAVEN casting judgement on others.Sweet dreams street.Life is always better there.
Street are you living your life right now like there is no Heaven to go to?Like this might be all there is.You know like this might be our only chance.Don't get me wrong I believe in Heaven .But I also believe that we can create a Heaven on earth.Judging and pushing our loved ones away from us is not heavenly it can't even feel the slightest bit rihgt.What ever happened to forgiveness.Do you believe that all these good things wait to haoppen to us in Heaven?I don't.You can't tell me that a mom that pushes her kids out of her life for any reason is going to Heaven because that to me would be a living hell .How can a mom love herself or the guy who tells her to cast her kids out?????Seems to me that a mom would have to have hatred in her heart to get to the point that she would turn her back on her child.Don't we need to be pure in heart to get into heaven?( Street some of your posts on here are far from pure ) How do these moms expect to explain to God that they didn't finnish the job he gave them.They threw their kids away cuz some man told them to. Women will be held accountable too.
Plig,
ReplyDeleteI do appreciate your sincerity, and won't be happy to see you go.
I do understand how it feels to be somewhere where you are not understood or appreciated. I don't think that is the case for you here, but it sounds like it feels that way.
plig... I don't know how you think you know my age, but I turned 19 the day before ruby turned 15. Her birthday is May 3, and mine is May 2. Whatever. I could tell by your posts that you have something against me. I never hurt Ruby, and I never would have. So this "virtue" you talk of was completely intact. And her mother wasn't one bit worried about us. I had many conversations with her mother and she always asked me if I was keeping it clean with Ruby and I was happy to say that I was, and I did. When I left uncle Fred's company I bet I did shake his hand, but what did you expect me to do, yell and curse at him and severe any minute chance I had for a future in that place. Come on man, or woman, whatever you are. You have got to have more sense in that head of yours than that. Why did I lose your respect when you found out I was the one that liked Ruby? Did you like her too? If you have some unresolved issues that are keeping you from being happy and you would like to work through them, then email me. I would be happy to help.
ReplyDeleteby the way... I never said I was innocent. I have made many mistakes, and if I could go back I would do things so much different. But I can tell by the way you talk that you still believe in warren, and so you must still think that to even look at a girl is sin. If that is a sin, then boy oh boy am I guilty. It is also a sin to love someone out there. And yes, I am very guilty of that too. Sorry, but I am not ashamed. I never broke any of the ten commandments. And I never hurt anyone. That's more than I can say for a lot of the "Holy people" that are being prepped for Zion. That is, if they make enough money, or have some talent that is useful to Warren.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry you got sent away. A lot of people I know got sent away for nothing. I am a personal witness to this. But you need to get over it and get on with you life. Find someone or something that can give you happiness. I don't mean that rudely. I just have seen too many men that have been kicked out, and they think their life is over. But it's not. God would have taken your life if it was over. But He didn't and He must have left you on this earth for some reason. So go and do something good with your life. God gave each of us gifts and if we don't use them and help others with them, then we are the ones that are going to be held accountable. I don't believe in any religion right now, but I do believe there is a God. And I know that He did not send us here to be miserable. God is love. Love is absent in CC and wherever Warren rules. So go and love, and be happy. That is what life is all about.
Good stuff Joseph. You've turned out great. I like your way of thinking.. Does John and your Dad share simmilar oppinions? I was closest to them growing up. Good men, even if we did have our challenges (I was a rebbel). I saw them a few months ago, they looked great.
ReplyDeleteHey Rumor Has It....You are mighty quiet lately...What is happening in your neck of the woods? C'mon girl! We "outsiders" depend on you for our news!! What's up?
ReplyDeleteUncle Warren never said " it was a sin to look at a girl", what he said was, and I quote him exactly. " young men, when you look at a girl, do you just look with your earthly eyes? or do you look with your spiritual eyes? I will tell you what to do, young men. When you look at a young woman, think of her good father, don't lust after her as the would would call it. That is death to you and her. When you do look at a girl, thing of her as a goddess, and think of her good Father, and then say a prayer asking Hevenly Father to guild your thoughts, so that they will be clean and pure." Let the Lord do the connections through his servant here upon the earth. Those who let the Lord choose who they should marry, will get the wery best. " the Lord gives the Very Best to those who leave the choice to him." (wsj)
ReplyDelete"Treat the girls like rattlesnakes. Don't even look at them. When you are tempted to look at a girl, say a prayer and look the other way. Girls, keep the bars up. Don't let the boys touch you. If a boy starts giving you attention, ignore him and just go the other way."
ReplyDeleteNeed I say more. If that's not the definition of sin, I don't know what is. God made us attracted to each other. It is only natural and beautiful. This training is only to brainwash the minds of the young people so that people like WARREN and Wendell can have the first choice of all the hot girls. Without the threat of competition from the young men.
Is arranged marriage anywhere in your scriptures - or is it something warren came up with on the fly? (I mean lots of other cultures do it....but is it new to FLDS?)
ReplyDeleteWhat worries me are the very small children under the rule of Warren.
ReplyDeleteAre they being taught Warren is their father after their "father's" have been removed several times?
What will happen to them when their mother are removed.
A nightmare in the making.
My father and mother were married by arrangement in 1970. I think that is about when they started doing it. They only did it to those that wanted to be married that way though. Even when Rulon Jeffs was in power, every time he put a marriage together he would ask the girl if there was someone that she had in mind.
ReplyDeleteYes, they teach the children that the man their mother married is their only father. They don't have pictures and they are not even to mention their old father's names.
joe,
ReplyDeleteyeah, I had listened to that song many times; it has always been a favorite of mine. But, the other day I listened to it and every verse reminded me of the social and spiritual catastrophe occurring in our church's families.
The words "immune to gloom" reminded me of keep sweet-no matter what. While I see the sense in peacefulness, I also recognize the truth that, as human beings, we are not mono-emotional. Oh, yes, and neither is God by the way. Can you picture Jesus keeping sweet while he whipped the money changers in the temple. Oh, come on! try to picture it one more time!
I had the experience as a child of my mother remarrying several times. I got to feel first hand what it was like to be told "He is not your father any more. This is your Priesthood Father, your only father." As a child, I was willing to adapt; I accepted it and pretended it was so. Then my father changed, again and again. The whole experience hurt me very deeply, but recently I have been able to see that living as a child through it has made me determined to never put my own children through it. The consequences are very real to me, as I believe they will be to the rising generation of the FLDS. The children of the broken homes will not have the same viewpoint as their parents. It is very different to be the child of divorce than to be the adult choosing the divorce. The consequences of a broken home are not real to Warren and many of the adults who lived in homes where their parents were together for their entire childhoods, but the rising generation will feel the pain like raw, open wounds. The parents may experience bliss and enjoy the variety, but the children will have a story to tell that isn't so romantic.
Not So !. Uncle Roy taught us that arranged marriages was a part of the Lords work in this world, and the world before this one, and the world before that one.
ReplyDeleteThe FLDS (and maybe the Centennial Park group) has practiced the "Law of Placement" (arranged marriages) for decades. The prophet is the one who decides (according to his revelation from God) who "marries" whom. The girl is usually asked if she is in agreement with this "divine" choice of life-long mates, but what young teenage "bride" would doubt the "revelation" of the prophet and say NO - I DON'T want to marry this man - and risk eternal damnation for not obeying God's desire and the prophet's desire/revelation.
ReplyDeleteIt is a sad situation for many young girls (and boys). This is one reason why dating is not allowed and the young are taught to despise (avoid at all costs - like Joseph said "Treat the girls like rattlesnakes.") because the prophet calls the shots.
Thus we have the conflict of free choice - is she making a FREE CHOICE? Or is she being railroaded into "marrying" this man because of fear of ostricism, possible alienation of friends and/or family, or worse yet - ETERNAL DAMNATION?
Lately, in the FLDS, this "Law of Placement" also is severely affecting the already "married" members - if they fall out of favour, they are "reassigned" (Placed with someone who is considered to be a more worthy follower)
It's all the prophet's whim.
The LDS are really into genealogy - for the baptism o the dead I assume (could be something different).
ReplyDeleteDoes FLDS do baptism of the dead?
Is genealogy something that interests them at all?
Joseph and Atar-i,the arranged marrages started in 1959-60,when Marrion Hammon came to short creek to pull the UEP out of debt.the UEP property was up for sale for non payment of taxes(this was hidden from us by the preisthood council)brother Hammon told them he would come to short creek and motivate the people toall go to work and pay off all uep debts,but he wanted to "run things".one of the first things he did was start the marriage thing, the council seems to have half heartedly tryed to institute it before,but had some opposition. there was some rational for the idea,because of young men taking more responsability than they could handle,(anyway that was one of the talking points).Marrion started the "work mission" program,and I was in the second groupe of boys called,we were to spend two years "building the kingdom" then we would be"given A wife,and piece of property".I hadent yet finished my mission,but in may of 1961,my " step father"told me I was supposed to marry his daughter,(I found out later, that one of the council members was after her,and her dad wanted her to marry me),anyway,on may 9 1961,I was married to Irene Jessop,the same day Ray Jessop and Karen beagly,David Stubbs and Salley Pledger, were married "by revelation and Comandment",we were the second groupe to be thus "blessed".the first groupe included, Gerald steed and Lillien black,Leo Pledger and Tanna Laurtzen,and Richard Fischer And Ann lauritzen. anyway,thats how I rember
ReplyDeleteit. for what its worth.
Andrew Bistline.
uncaduff@yahoo.con
Atar_i: "The LDS are really into genealogy - for the baptism of the dead I assume."
ReplyDeleteCorrect.
"Is arranged marriage anywhere in your scriptures"
So far as I remember, it isn't mentioned anywhere specifically. There is one verse in the Book of Mormon which could, I guess, be interpreted that way:
4th Nephi 4:11 "And they were married and given in marriage"
Some, I suppose, might interpret that as meaning that people both married of their own will and were arranged marriages against their will, but that is certainly not the position of the LDS church.
Joeseph: "If that's not the definition of sin, I don't know what is."
ReplyDeleteJoe, your quote certainly sounds pretty bad, but without any context at all, it's impossible to know whether it's a definition of sin, as you allege; or whether in its proper context, it would indicate something altogether different.
"God made us attracted to each other. It is only natural and beautiful"
Please don't take this the wrong way -- I'm not trying to imply anything about you, and I'm not even sure that it's relevant to the topic. But that is the exact same protest that gay people make against the LDS church's policies. That the act's divine purity is self evident by its pleasantness. But Satan will dress up all sorts of evil acts as pleasant, so that humans are tempted by them.
Please understand Joe, I'm not attacking you. I actually sympathize with you and your story. I'm just trying to see things from an FLDS perspective, for the sake of argument and, oh, let's say I'm trying to understand a bit better where the FLDS are coming from.
Because the FLDS do strike me a rather strange, but I guess they're still God's children, and my brothers and sisters in Christ.
This is my first time posting here. Although I read it often, I didn't think I would ever post, but Joseph's story moved me to, expecially when he mentioned his new baby daughter. It reminded me of a small picture I saw the other day that simply stated..."Children are God's way of telling us that life goes on". No one on either side of this conflict can honestly deny the simple truth of that statement. Congratulations on the new family Joe. All the best to you and yours.
ReplyDeleteThe FLDS has been so busy with the "new" teachings they don't have time for such. When the dust settles, they are definately going to need some journals from their fathers and so GENEALOGY to find out where they come from, so they can figure out where they are going.
ReplyDeleteThat is the pinacle of my argument, "All the new teachings." God said, "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever." So why all the sudden do we have all these new teachings. I'll tell you why, it is so warren can keep his little finger on the people and just like a puppet master move them and control them at his will. The people out there are so into it, they would do anything, I mean ANYTHING that he told them to do. Wether it came from prison or not. It is so sad. I wish people would realize that God gave them their free agency for a reason.
ReplyDeleteJoseph, Atar_i etc
ReplyDeleteThe doctrine of placement marriages can actually be traced back to John Y Barlow in Short Creek back in the 40's
According to Arnold Boss' journal, the idea was proposed while most of the council was in prison in 1945. It was thought to be a way to control the numbers of wives men were taking.
John Y and Joseph Musser disagreed sharply on this, and it became one of the main dividing points that caused the Musser/Allred split. Today, the AUB (Allred group) does not practice placement, but the followers of the leadership in Short Creek still do.
If you get a chance to talk to old timers in the group who married each other back in the early 40's courted each other, they weren't placed.
As far as I am concerned, it was one step on the way to total control.
So, it wasn't really a revelation, just a decision.
ReplyDeleteAtar
ReplyDeleteWe're slowly getting it back to its roots. As far as having a direct written revelation, there is not one. It is indirectly taken from the revelations of Joseph Smith. Placement marrriage was practiced in JS's day and Brigham Young's, John Taylor's and so on. Was every marriage a placement marriage? No. In the earlier days of the church there was very little of it. In John Y. Barlow's day there was an increase of it, but still there were many marriages that were not placement marriages. The courting that took place at least in some instances I am aware of were actually assigned marriages. The parties were advised to court to see if the marriage would fit both the prospective bride and groom. Some did not. I know of marriages after John Barlow's day until the end of Rulon Jeffs that were not assigned by the 'prophet'. If a man and a woman felt they were meant for each other it was considered for a union. Not all of these resulted in a marriage. Some of them were older men whom young girls wanted to marry. The girl ended up marrying a man much closer to her age. And yes, some of the young girls that wanted to marry a young man ended up marrying an older man. It has worked both ways. There have been girls that were 'placed' that decided they would not marry the man designated. They ended up getting married to someone whom they chose. I have mentioned girls making choices. It was not as frequent to my knowledge that the men made choices of brides but I do know it has happened.
This is something that has really changed with the teachings of warren. He has taught that it is wrong to seek for yourself the will of God in your behalf beyond a testimony that he is leading you right. If you follow his teachings exactly that is the only thing you will ask of Him for yourself.
I've kind of rambled but I hope I gave somewhat of an answer. Placement marriage in other cultures has the same roots as it does in ours. JS simply restored principles that had been around since Adam and lost. These very often fly in the face of people that have other traditons imbedded into their being.
fttc:
ReplyDeleteI understood your posting very well. Not being FLDS it is difficult to understand the thinking of anyone who would give themselves over completely to the whim of a mere man. Sure, I know he is a self proclaimed prophet but, so what? The 11/14/11:33 posting is the real eye opener. This individual didn't know who his "true" father was because a MAN kept moving he/she and their mother from family to family. where is the familial stability?
How can anyone think that those who experience such trama will not, in all likleyhood repeat the same with their wives and children. Reminds me of an old popular song from the early '50's, "Whatever Lola wants Lola gets. Take a chance, you know you can't win." In this instance the prophet is Lola, you are the victim of whim.
I only know of placement marriage in a different culture.
ReplyDeleteThe family of the bride and the family of the groom seek out prospective mates of the same social and economic status, religion, and consider compstability. It's a deal that's good for both families.
Usually they meet, and the individuals have to agree to the process, and then they agree to the selection.
I don't know the statistics on divorce, but I wouldn't aniticipate them to be any worse than a non-placement marriage.
Because, in reality, although the finding of the mate, and matching was out of their control, all throughout the process they have the ability to halt or veto. The families I have known realize that it might not always work, and do not provide undue pressure. They just keep on looking if something doesn't work out.
If you can't provide that - I think it's a situation ripe for future unhappiness and problems.
I think if a child does want that sort of placement that the parents should be brokering that sort of deal, and if they need help, perhaps warren can play yente, and offer suggestions - but it should be the parents.
compstability = compatibility
ReplyDeletegosh I wish there was an edit feature!
Atar, Muggs
ReplyDeleteI concur in both of your posts.
In reply to someone's post, my email is joroluvsteresa@hotmail.com
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone really know why the twenty men or so were evicted from CC a couple of years ago? Have any of them been forgiven and allowed to return?
ReplyDeleteI know that one of the men, Vel Jessop, was very loyal and devoted. Would such men be allowed back in and their families and property restored?
ReplyDeleteVal probably won't be allowed to return unless his ticket back in was Lawrene. Val is a honest and noble man, but accepting Lawrene back may have hurt his chances. Lawrene shared many secrets about the FLDS with the outside world, expecially with Flora. Lawrene has probably hurt his chances.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Val, I have noticed that his place looks abandoned and hid kids haven't been in school for about a week. Any info anyone?
ReplyDeleteWe can only pray that Val has not done something vile to Laurene and the kids.
ReplyDeleteI met Joseph Rohbock in 2002, and I gaind a lot of respect for him. I had heard plenty of the rumers. He had more love for his Father and the "preisthood" then any one his age that I new.
ReplyDeleteJoseph congrats on your new baby, I am glad that you realised ther's more fish in the sea, and made a life for yourself. The best of luck. And I am truly greatfull that I got the chance to meet you.
Kinda interesting that Val's being gone coincided with Street's not posting anymore.....Is it just me, or does anyone else notice this, too?
ReplyDeleteYes, I noticed, I think Val gave orders to disable the computer or not to use it at all since they moved. Lawrene lives with the master of lies right now and she believes him. This is the only world she feels comfortable with.
ReplyDeleteOh lordy, if he was OTS, Lawrene is living with a psycho. Poor girl, perhaps she is the same sane one who sometimes posted using the OTS name?
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to listen to the recordings or to obtain transcriptions of Vals conversations with Laurene. They could be compared with OTS's postings to see how close they match. I know Flora has quite a few of these. They are quite frightening to listen to. Does anyone know where Laurene's fiance is, is he still in contact with her? Last I heard, he was quite broken over her loss. They loved eachother dearly.
ReplyDelete