FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Tuesday, April 15, 2008
food for some further thought.
By virtue of giving the State a mandate to protect us from ourselves and each other, have we in fact, be come property of the State?
The order, signed Sunday morning by 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, came after someone used a cell phone to send out images of living conditions at one shelter and to speak with a newspaper reporter.
This judge seems to be doing a fine job in keeping inflammatory actions of all involved to a minimum. There can be no slanted/biased pictures given to the public if camera cell phones are taken away. They all have access to land line phones for personal use and 24 hour/day access to their lawyers.
Interesting that the ACLU has not voiced objection (as yet). Even that most liberal entity is having difficulty identifying clear-cut infringements of personal rights in this situation.
Are you using your internet access to keep you abreast of these actions? Google was helpful to me in answering your question and this article was my first hit.
My point about the cell phones is that it contradicts the assertion that the women are virtual prisoners of the men and cut off from contact with the outside world by the MEN.
The women all had CELL PHONES. The fact that they have the phones seems like pretty good evidence that the assertion that they can't make contact with the outside or get help if they wanted it is false.
Have you entertained the thought that it is rather doubtful women who have been indoctrinated into the FLDS thinking by the MEN AND OTHER WOMEN (especially regarding the evils of non-FLDS people) would use their cell phones to contact the outside? Is it possible the fear of getting caught and suffering consequences decided upon by MEN would override any such action?
Is it possible that only those the MEN judged the most trustworthy of the women had cell phones?
Perhaps the women who elected to go to the local women's shelter rather than return to the compound never knew there was such an option open to them.
Just food for thought. Personally I've seen nothing that would cause me to think these women know they have rights beyond the ones they have mouthed to the media since the children were taken. Perhaps they are so brainwashed they choose to know no other type of life. Perhaps their lawyers have a chance to enlighten them.
These are all symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself. If all we do is focus on the symptoms, we will never change or correct the problem.
What is the problem? It is the removal of the one thing that makes us, as humans, different than any other animal on the Earth, and the one thing that has given the human race the ability to elevate our standard of living and life.... it is called freedom.
Now we have heard some of those at the ranch say they are free, but are they really? Lets break it down and look at it. For the sake of this discussion, I’ll refer to beliefs as how we see the world around us, and values as how we react to what we see through our beleifs.
We all have beliefs and values. They have come from many different areas of our life. Our parents, church, country, friends, teachers, the media etc. Beliefs in and of them selves are not bad. In fact, they are vital to being able to live. We must have a way of interpreting the World around us so we know how to respond to it. The danger comes when we are unable to challenge our beliefs when they don’t line up with reality.
There seems to be two types of people in this World. Those who are reality driven and those who are belief driven. There are of course many shades of grey between, but those are the two extremes. Reality oriented people change their beliefs (their way of interpreting what is happening around them) when they realize that a former belief is not justified or is just plain wrong. For example, it used to be believed that the World was flat. It was proven to be round. Those who were reality oriented changed their former belief that it was flat to the new belief that it was round, as that matched up with the new reality, and opened up numerous new possibilities. Now belief oriented people are the type that for whatever reason, usually security, and quite often control, will not change their beliefs to match up with reality. They fear change, and love the security of a known and accepted belief (if only in their circle of acquaintances) If reality challenges the belief, they will intentionally block out those contradictions as it will alter their view of the world, and the control they feel they have over their view of reality.
We don’t see the world around us as it is, we see it as we are. Also, there is nothing particularly wrong with being belief or reality oriented, that is our right. The problem comes when we won’t allow those around us the opportunity to check their beliefs against reality.
Every animal on this earth has a set of beliefs and values programmed into them at birth, or if a domesticated animal, trained into them; over which the animal itself has no ability to challenge or change on its own. Humans are the only species that have the ability to challenge and change not only how we see the world around us (beliefs) but how we react to the world around us (values). This freedom to look at our beliefs and values and to change them, since it is unique only to humans, I would think should be our most precious gift, and guarded and protected with the utmost fervor. Free agency in other words, and it is responsible for most of if not all of the major advancements of human kind on the Earth. It is free agency that establishes what is right and wrong in our minds. Humans are the only ones who can tell the difference, which makes them harder to control than any other species, yet we can be easily lead, if we desire the same destination as the leader. Those who want to control us, must first minimize our ability to rationalize our beliefs with reality: often referred to as brainwashing.
Back to the FLDS. Its not that their beliefs or values are all bad, although some don’t seem to line up with reality. In fact, many of their values are admired by many, and can be argued are rather godlike characteristics. But if we are to be saved on our actions alone, why did God give us free agency? It is the inability of the members to challenge their beliefs and values that is the problem. The removal of free agency.
Just like we must eat to live, we should not live to eat. In much the same way, we must have a belief and value system (many call it religion) to function in this world, but if that belief and value system is our world, we have a problem. Meaning by that statement that if it does not line up with our beliefs, we ignore reality or remove ourselves from it.
It didn’t happen all at once in the FLDS, it was a slow progression. There were those with similar beliefs and values who got together in the early 1900's because they had the belief that plural marriage was necessary to make it into the Celestial Kingdom. I am not going to argue whether or not that is a valid belief, that is for each adult to determine on their own, but since that is a choice that will affect us for the rest of our lives, we must make it ourselves and be old enough to decide if it lines up with the life we desire. However, those who joined together felt so strongly about the correctness of their beliefs, they wanted to make sure their children followed in their footsteps. They begin to teach the belief that anything not in line with their beliefs was automatically of the world, and was evil. Therefore, the value of avoiding anything that contradicted their beliefs. As each succeeding generation refined this belief and value, it ultimately culminated in what we see today in the FLDS. A theocracy where the only person on the Earth today who can change the beliefs or values is the prophet. It has also resulted in extreme mind control and environment control.
Essentially, in the current FLDS, you are given your belief and value system. You can’t challenge it or change it, as it is from God. The only person who can is the prophet. There are naturally going to be those who are reality oriented, so in order to cut down on the possible questions to the rightness of the belief system, their surroundings are controlled, and they are taught to block or remove any thought contrary to the belief system, as it is from the devil. Do they have any choices? Yes, they may have some choices, but only the ones that fit within the belief system of the religion. This makes the people totally dependant on the leader to make any decision, and has therefore resulted in the removal of their own freedom or free agency. This is the root problem that must be corrected. If we attack only the symptoms, we only reinforce the beliefs that the “World” is out to destroy them because they are good, the world is bad. It then become religious persecution.
Every one of the issues stated at the first of this post are results of this type of environment. In essence, those who are leading are trying to control the reality of those under them so they won’t challenge the belief system and become “lost.” Or, for those on welfare, they have the belief that they should bring as many spirits into the world as possible, yet they can’t take care of them financially, so the must rely on welfare to pick up the tab. They don’t question the reality that if they can’t take care of them in this life, how they will in the next. No, they simply believe that they are doing God’s will, and therefor are entitled to welfare as it’s the Lord’s way of providing. Also in an effort to be certain that the maximum number of family members are saved, any of those who challenge the belief system or the right of the leaders must be sent away to preserve the purity of the rest of the family (lost boys, and contrary to some, many did not want to leave). It is also seen proper to marry of the daughters, in some cases, rather young to ensure that they are sealed to a good man and therefore saved (I firmly believe that the majority of the men marry and give in marriage their daughters to “save” them, not for sexual gratification).
This is the reality they live in because of their beliefs, and their inability to challenge those beliefs and compare them to reality. Most of those involved don’t realize they are helping to further the removal of their rights and those of their families. They simply have faith (which is a belief of something that has not yet happened. As soon as it has happened, it becomes knowledge) that their version of reality is the only way, the right way, the guaranteed way to get back to Heaven.
Of course, there are those who don’t agree with all the beliefs and are sent out and labeled apostate. Problem there is that many have gotten used to forcing their beliefs onto others, and turn and try to force their new belief system on those they split from. Both assert that the other is wrong, yet neither dares listen to the other for fear that their beliefs will be altered in some way. They both hack away at the fruit of the problem and ignore the root cause.
We are free to believe anything we want in the great Country, and I firmly believe it is a God given right to everyone. However, when our beliefs and the resulting actions of our values remove the freedom of another, our freedom ends.
Yes, I think the best place for children is with the parents. I also think the parents need to be able to, as the children mature, give them the opportunity to make their own choices. Religion in and of itself is not bad, it is tool to interpret the World around us and gives us values of how to respond. The problem is when we let our religion become our world without the ability to check it against reality (anyone read the history of the Dark Ages?). It is when we can’t explain why we believe the way we do other than we have been taught it is right. It is when we don’t dare questions our beliefs, yet in turn force those beliefs on others by controlling their lives, thoughts and surroundings that real abuse is happening.
I hope this is a big enough reality check to the parents down there, and all across this great land of America, that they and we will start to exercise the greatest of human endowments, our freedom to think for ourselves, and allow their children the same opportunity.
Don’t get me wrong, many of the “symptoms” I listed are wrong and must be corrected. But, if the root problem is not changed, the symptoms will only continue to surface, time and time again. Sometimes the only way to start this process is when reality collides so hard with the belief system, that the individual(s) begin to realize that suppression of personal free agency results in their inability to accomplish even their most basic goals and ambitions in life, the inability to live within their former “reality.”. Education is also critical, as it expands our views, and can often start us on a journey of questioning what we believe in, and why, without the artificial environment of controlled physical surroundings, thought control, or belief control.
I believe that why we believe in something is every bit as important as what we believe in, and the ability to ask those questions of our beliefs to be the most important.
"I am amazed at how many people believe what ever the media says and what ever the CPS says-all before proven guilty. Did you guys never study out constitution? And that stupid tale about the BED- it was a place where members could lie down if they had fasted and the sermon was getting long and they felt faint. They also have them at the regular Mormon church. Such a bunch of crap presented- guilty until proven innocent? And how should the nursing babies be abused? They were looking for a 16 year old- why did they take the whole town? "
thats funny........ one of the FLDS members said it was where the "caretaker" of the temple slept.......
Today on the AP newswire there was a story about FLDS fashion. I wanted to see if anyone knew if this quote was accurate:
"The clothing is also stitched with special markings "to protect the body and to remind you of your commitment," Bennion says. She declined to go into detail about the stitchings because she said it would be an infraction against the fundamentalist Mormon community to talk about their sacred symbols."
Is she talking about longies? I haven't seen anything stitched into women's dresses. Am I wrong or is this a bad rumor waiting to happen?
I am really shocked that this nonsense has been happening in America. Im not even talking about the very young child bride issue anymore, just the crazy dictatorship.
Thank goodness Texas realized was the situation was way out of line. Didnt Jeffs ever hear the phrase, "Don't mess with Texas"?
btw, DNA testing has proven that Native Americans are definitely NOT from Israeli seed. Doesn't this fact make anyone wonder about the Book of Mormon? Perhaps this has something to do with why internet, tv, and education is not allowed...
Truly shocked that this has been happening right here in America~
There's never been any evidence of child abuse of 4 year olds, only accusations about teen brides. So why are the 4 year olds being held? Seems like fascist overreach.
Yes, it does matter if there is probably cause or not.
And, no, judges do not always do the right thing. In most cases, in this country, in the last 20 years, they have often done the very worst thing.
Look at most of the rulings of Federal Circuit Judges and Supreme Court Justices. It is harder and harder for the little guy to stand up for himself.
And the judge in this case is obviously biased and slanted. 20 teen pregnancies hardly indicates abuse.
I'll say it again. If 20 teen pregnancies in a COMMUNITY means abuse, then I guess every community needs to be rounded up, according to you.
You need to take your personal dislike of FLDS out of this and look at the bigger picture. Your "end justifies the means" / get revenge attitude is exactly what allowed Hitler to take over Germany with the Nazi Party. Go read some history books.
I am sorry this is crazy, They keep speaking about the pregnant girls in that compound I graduated highschool in a small town in california called Rialto and I had in my pregnant minor class (yes there was a class for us) 19 girls pregnant and about 15 of them who already had a baby or children and this was in 1997 so where is child protective services now
"Why not just voted State Representative Harvey Hildebran out of office with a wave and smile?
Then again, you can thank Utah's very own Attorney General Mark Shurtleff for making the trip to Texas to show the error of their ways and get that law passed. AG Shurtleff IS up for re-election. Hope he loses over this ! "
Freedom Mama,
Thank you for the response, and for the info. The only problem is that most people don't pay attention to the elections or the issues, and a lot of really bad leaders stay in office for years. When apathy takes over, it is a sad state of affairs. I can only hope that, in Utah's case, enough people know about AG Shurtleff and oust him, like you said! :)
"October 27, 1838 Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an "extermination order" legalizing the murder of Mormons in Missouri. Under that order there were many murders committed and entire settlements were invaded & burned while men, women and children were massacred."
Well, apparently, according to the lawmakers of the State of Texas, there is no difference between 1838 and 2008.
"There is still debate about whether it was the davidians or the government who were the agressors at Waco if you want a more modern example."
Personally, I've been avoiding the Waco similarities, as I know Waco can polarize a lot of people. However, Waco was one of the first things I thought of when I first saw this news story break. And I started thinking, "We never really did see David Koresh on TV. All we really had to go on was what the media and law enforcement said about him." So, I started to do some digging. Yes, Koresh was weird and a hick. And, yes, he thought he was a prophet. But his weirdness and the situation there was grossly exaggerated. And I listened to the 911 recordings of the raid, as well as many exchanges between people inside that compound and the FBI. Koresh and his companions were begging for media coverage. They were begging to talk to the press. And the FBI constantly lied, and their lies were caught on tape. And the National Guard was mooning the Branch Davidians in the compound. When Koresh brought that up, the FBI said it was because those soldiers were immature, and many of them had never been in a tank before, or handled massive weapons before. On top of that, the FBI autopsy / examiner who was first on the scene after the fire said there were no signs of drugging or suicide. He showed photos. People were run over and torn apart by tanks. And I watched video of the Sheriff, who said Koresh was very easy to get along with, and did not want trouble with the law. Finally, I saw several sworn testimonies and heard a recording of Koresh calling the ATF several weeks before the raid. He had learned they were interested in him, and invited them out there to come search and investigate. They refused.
Bottom line, the ATF wanted a big press story. But it backfired. The press got out there 30 minutes before law enforcement, and it was a disaster.
Oh, did I mention that one of the first things the ATF did was to shoot the mother dog and her 4 puppies? From the rooftops, where the dogs couldn't have possibly pose any danger?
Actually, I believe that my comment was to the effect that there are known high incidences of abuse and rape within the Texas foster care system. It's very well-documented.
I believe even one of the earlier posts included a link to a Governor's report with the statistics. It's quite frightening.
A lot of posters seem to think that just because no charges have been filed, yet, the children should be returned.This isnt TV where the crime is solved in 42min, plus commercials.CPS has 436 [isnt that the most current count?] separate investigations to do, with children who may or may not know who they really are [if the came from a reassigned family and given new names] or who their parents are. There seems to be a very blurry line in the parentage area. DNA will help with that. I did 30+ years in law enforcement and good, accurate investigations take a lot of time. This is territory never traveled, just in size and logistics, alone! So, give Texas and CPS a chance to get answers. Just cuz you hear it on the news or read it online makes it a fact of the investigation. The news outlets are more interested in juicy headlines and rating than they are facts.
You are speaking about hearsay...the women who were at the compound were not at the ranch when it was raided. They came back from a trip to find the mess left behind. All this talk about rape is ridiculous. Statutory law was changed from 14 to 16 only two years ago in Texas. You are assuming some things to be true of ALL members. What about the woman who is 29 and has one 7 year old. Why should her child be taken? That is one example of many. Oh and why are breast fed babies being taken from their mothers.
I've been on this board for three years now - and I've learned a few things.
1. Most of us could care less how many wives a man has
2. Most of us could care less how old his wives are (be they 18 or 72)
3. Most of us aren't trying to change the religion of this group, and most of us actually have fond feelings for this group
WE DO ASK FOR CHANGE
If it is your belief that a man have multiple wives - make sure they are at the age of consent, and that the woman has a choice.
Have as many babies as you like - But if you consider yourself married, accuarately represent your living situation when you are asking for help
If your sons are a disappointment to you and don't follow your beliefs - Please allow them to stay at home until they finish high school, and turn 18, unless they choose to leave.
AND JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR
Teen preganancy (two kids in HS getting active and making babies), is NOT the same thing as a 14 year old who is GIVEN in marriage to her 48 year old uncle
Your strong opinions are based on a couple of things that you WISH were reality, not necessarily what is.
You WISH polygamy were legal, but it isn't (and anyway, nobody really cares about that in all of this).
You WISH abuse weren't happening in this group, but obviously it is.
You WISH we weren't accountable to the government to the degree that we are, but...we ARE!
It's hard to debate on points of how it should be and determine what should happen from here on out based on what....ISN'T.
The state of Texas executed the search based on the current laws and guidelines of this country. It sure would be nice if, when the law enforcement arrived, the folks within would have had all the abuse victims in one line at the front of the property and all the abusers in another line, but that's not what unfolded.
It is useless to debate whether or not abuse happened inside. We all know it did, which is sad.
How corrupt the Texas foster care system may or may not be doesn't affect this fact one iota. If anything, it should encourage us all to treat our children the way we would want to be treated and in a way that honors the One who gave them to us in the first place.
As adults we are all required not to physically and sexually abuse our children. If our neighbor wants to make a false report, CPS is still required to follow up on it. If they find nothing, they have no case and they will not waste their time. If they find something, it is their job to remove a child from their environment to ensure their safety.
I WISH they hadn't found anything when they went into YFZ. Wishing ain't getting as they say and here we are.
Is it CPS' fault that their findings fell under the catagory of abuse? NO! Any other family or group would have lost their children just the same.
Am I glad that even a few may have been spared abuse - YES!
This really has nothing to do with their right to practice their faith or how corrupt the foster care system is. Those are just distractors from the real issue - YOU CANNOT ABUSE A CHILD.
The only issue here that is anybody (society's) business is whether crimes took place. How they dress, what they believe, how they raise their children, educate their children, etc. is nobody's business.
I'm just as disgusted by the alleged crimes as everybody else. For the sake of the children I pray they are either untrue or grossly exaggerated.
The negative remarks on the blogs about how these people choose to live or what to believe that have nothing to do with crimes are horrible. I've read posts saying everything from their children should never be returned to any of them regardless of the outcome of the investigation to their temple should be burned to the ground.
God help you all that nobody decides what you believe or how you choose to live is not acceptable to their way of thinking and unleashes this kind of hatred toward you. Come to think of it isn't that pretty much why 9-11 happened ... people who believe differently than we do deciding our way of life is unacceptable and unleashing their ignorance and hate?
Much as I dislike most of the stuff the ACLU does what I've read in these posts only goes to show why a watch dog like them is necessary. Take their kids, throw them all in jail, burn their temple? Who'se living in the 19th century them or us?
MC - "So, give Texas and CPS a chance to get answers. Just cuz you hear it on the news or read it online makes it a fact of the investigation. The news outlets are more interested in juicy headlines and rating than they are facts. "
I agree, that's exactly what I have been saying. Just because CNN reports "abuse" or someone writes a book (for profit) doesn't make it true and it NEVER makes it true for an entire community. That's just stupidity of the first order.
The flimsy testimony presented to justify kidnapping these children is appalling. I don't even watch TV and I'm disgusted. Insider information is far more disturbing. Couple that with EVERY attorney I know being appalled at the Constitutional infringements and I don't need CNN to tell me this is an absolute disaster. It's especially a sad truth to note that now CPS has ownership of those kids they don't have to give them back for years while they are "investigating".
I can guess that CPS's job is hard (I've never had that job) and I can guess they are good people. Nevertheless, I am saying that good people have the right to make a WRONG decision and they have made so many. Additionally, many of the people executing this may have not been fully on board but had to stick with it to protect a paycheck. Those are the economic facts but that's not freedom either is it?
It's such a catastrophe that we give these people so much power, they might mean well but they are just people. They can and will make terrible mistakes when the stakes are as high as possible – like in this and thousands of cases nation-wide. What are we thinking? There has to be a better way. Meanwhile these babies are suffering without their mothers. It just breaks my heart. I couldn't possibly care less about Texan "chances".
Too bad you subscribe to and support this. I mean, too bad for you and your team. You're missing out on what you could really be accomplishing. Have you read about the strategy of Gandhi, Dr. King or Nightengale? Maybe they learned few things and clearly you do not understand that.
Heavy handed NEVER works as well as thoughtful process. It’s a short term gain long term pain strategy. This is a disaster to your work, and to others asking for "change" - that's me included.
Some children taken by '53 raid never recovered. Hope you're sleeping. I'm not and I don't even have this on my head.
What yet another sad day in this country, when Big Brother is just allowed to go into another persons home, and do what they want without investigation first. You wouldn't see these jokers going into a Mosque, a synagoge, or a Black church and do what they've just done to these people. This had been planned way ahead of time believe me, and there's no phone call. They can try to blame it on Rosita Swenton if they want, but she is just a pawn in their lies. I am totally against child abuse, and rape is the most appauling, as I was raped at 5 yrs. old. , but there's no proof of all this abuse. This is another Ruby Ridge, or a Waco and we all best be on our toes...if it can happen to them...it will happen to us. Harken News people, how dare you make fun of the womens hair styles and their way of dress also, who are you to justify how they want to live? Where is Help for these people, who want to live their lives in peace...come on ACLU and get off your butts. Signed...Joanne in IA. a Grandma and Babtist! Lets get real.
First of all, I don't believe that Joanne M. from Iowa is a baptist (not babtist).
The ACLU won't touch this one with a ten-foot pole if they've got any sense. They'd be in the middle of it if there was a leg to stand on.
Read more about the FLDS and watch a little less TV (that's probably what the ACLU is doing)...then you can form an educated opinion.
People who obviously have compassion are looking at those images on tv and they just don't get it. How could women dressed in prarie dresses with their hair pulled back in braids ever hurt a child? Talk about closed-minded.
"Read more about the FLDS and watch a little less TV (that's probably what the ACLU is doing)...then you can form an educated opinion."
Anonymous,
I believe you are the one who needs to do some more reading, starting with our Constitution. You can't just break into homes because you "know" someone is doing something wrong.
If the country lets the State get away with this, they will just do it again. And it will be for even smaller offenses, again and again, smaller and smaller. Eventually, you'll find yourself labeled a criminal because you paid your car registration one day too late or because your car was 2 decibels above the approved recommendation.
You might also want to read the legal international definition of genocide from one of my earlier posts.
Georgie poo, Please understand that I am merely a member of Mensa and a conoisseur of leather bound books. My office smells of rich mohagony.
I read your post and am sitting here frightened. Are the feds at my door?! Your post reminded me that I am late on my car registration. I'm scared Georgie. What'll I do?
Do you think they know about that time I forgot to feed my dog? I am trying not to get paranoid, but I do remember watching that Big Brother movie in 1984. SPOOOOOKY!!!!
PS-I am a dog-walker in Iowa and I am a Prezbitarian. Not a 46 year old perv,
You may think that you're funny, but that's obviously because you're so busy judging others that you don't see how "Big Brother" this move by the State is.
Did you not see the post by the ex-police officer? By his own admission, he did not sympathize with the lifestyle of the FLDS. However, in the same post, he DID still confirm what many of us have been saying here all along. The authorities did not conduct a good faith investigation. They played God. Your prejudice combined with your blindness and sarcasm are a perfect example of how our great Nation is continuously dumbed down and why corrupt officials continue to get elected while most Citizens are too apathetic to vote, or at least use their brains when they do vote.
In your rich mahogany library, do you have a book which contains this quote? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ? Maybe you should think that statement through.
"The black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth". -Warren Jeffs
The FLDS group was characterized by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group (2005). They shared a spot with the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryan Nation.
Can you blame the people of Eldorado for not wanting this type of person and his loyal followers to "take over Eldorado"???
Maybe you should also get a mahogany library and put some books in it about the FLDS.
MENSA - Within that mahogany library of yours do you happen to have a copy of the Constitution of the United States of America?
Jeffs can LEGALLY teach whatever ridiculous sermon he wants. Look it up if you don’t believe me. I gather you can digest the language of the document.
Additionally, perhaps you should take a trip to Liberty Missouri or Nauvoo Illinois where Joseph Smith and his brother were killed for "taking over" as you suggest is so dangerous a prospect for the poor neighbors in Texas. Nauvoo was the fastest growing city in the US at the time and full of those stinking rotten Mormons. Technically, they were killed in a close town but the reason was Nauvoo and the possibility they were taking over the state. Be careful now, I don’t want to lose you. I bring it up as a history lesson not as a parallel between the FLDS and the LDS. The FLDS are distinctly different that current-day Mormons (LDS). I just thought I would point out that you are supporting a school of thought that ends in extermination sometimes by raid and imprisonment, sometimes by massacre, and sometimes by genocide. That's awfully open-minded of YOU.
That Mensa test sure doesn't expose lack of logic does it? You might be smart but you do not seem particuarly wise. Incidentally, perhaps you’ll be comforted in knowing you share this line of logic with a certain, I’m sure, very well educated or otherwise intelligent Sherriff in El Dorado Texas. Perhaps you and he could sit down and discuss the existential philosophies of Nietzsche or Keirkegaard or how Eistein’s theory of relativity really applies to quantum mechanics. Then again, he’s probably just worried about “those damned FLDS takin’ over the town. And, I’ll be a horse’s petute if I let that happen to this here town! Not on my watch!”.
Brilliant company with whom you choose to share a line of logic!
Sounds like my direct quotes and facts have hit a nerve.
First of all, you don't know what I think or know about LDS or FLDS. How do you know I've never been to Nauvoo, Illinois or Liberty, Missouri? Accusing me of subscribing to an extermination ideology is hateful and presumptuous at the very least.
I could easily be a solid, practicing mormon who resents the ugly spot that the FLDS has put on my faith. For crying out loud, you've put me in the same catagory as the people who killed Joseph Smith(?).
Secondly, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that Warren's racist views cast a shadow of doubt on a group of people who are desperately trying to convince us all (with their media blitz) that they are gentle, loving, and pure. Instead, I see it as a window into a dark culture. You're right, though. They are protected by the constitution (did I say they weren't?).
I was simply pointing out the obvious. The majority of Americans (skinheads excepted of course) repel the notion that black people are tools of the devil - a way that the devil brought sin to the earth. Follow that logic and you will arrive at the conclusion that MOST towns don't want a very large group subscribing to that ideology moving in and outnumbering them (especially black and hispanic people). The reasons are clear unless, again, you are a skinhead.
Yes, Warren is allowed to say anything he wants and his followers are allowed to blindly follow. Similarly, Eldorado is allowed to feel however they like...last time I checked, opinions are also protected by the constitution. Shucks, were it not for those darn laws on statutory rape, they could have stuck around and taken over Eldorado. They could have renamed it FLDSado, polygarado, Jeffsorado, or maybe even Jessoporado. Oh, and since you seem to have a knack for history, let me remind you about the FLDS takeover of the twin cities (for every one cent paid in taxes, they collected eight cents).
While parents have a constitutional right to raise their children, that right is not all encompassing. It must be balanced against the child's right to a safe, and secure home. The state's parens patriae authority enables it to intervene in situations where the child is either presently harmed or in imminent danger of harm. Typically, children are assigned a law guardian, or guardian ad litem to protect their rights independent of any rights of the parents. Since children are persons, they are entitled to the rights guaranteed by the 13th amendment, as incorporated by the 14th. Under that amendment, children may not be used as chattel or forced into involuntary servitude. Imposing marriage and a "duty" to reproduce upon underaged girls is certainly involuntary servitude. In such cases, the state must intervene.
How I "feel" means very little if anything when we refer simply to the law.
Has the State of Texas broke the law?
Have the parents broke laws?
Whether we like it or not, our legal system must be followed by all parties.
Frankly I would rather see 10 guilty citizens go free to protect the right of one innocent. Sadly the US has turned into a system of guilty until proven innocent which this situation captures perfectly.
From the day we start public school we find that regardless of our actions we often are judged by group- Billy and Suzy are misbehaving so the the Teacher punishes the whole class.
Every time the state is not held accountable to laws as citizens we put in place, it opens the door for them to take more.
One day they will tattoo all babies at birth and require parental certification.
The flds has been breaking the law for years! that is why you are in trouble now. Pedophilia and rape and polygamy are wrong and unlwaful. you must pay the price for your conduct. believe all the religion you want, but your actions are criminal.
If pedophilia and rape are wrong and those who perpetuate it must pay the price for their conduct, then what is going to be done to the foster families and CPS officials who have already abused several of these children?
240 comments:
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http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_8912521
The order, signed Sunday morning by 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, came after someone used a cell phone to send out images of living conditions at one shelter and to speak with a newspaper reporter.
This judge seems to be doing a fine job in keeping inflammatory actions of all involved to a minimum. There can be no slanted/biased pictures given to the public if camera cell phones are taken away. They all have access to land line phones for personal use and 24 hour/day access to their lawyers.
Interesting that the ACLU has not voiced objection (as yet). Even that most liberal entity is having difficulty identifying clear-cut infringements of personal rights in this situation.
Are you using your internet access to keep you abreast of these actions? Google was helpful to me in answering your question and this article was my first hit.
My point about the cell phones is that it contradicts the assertion that the women are virtual prisoners of the men and cut off from contact with the outside world by the MEN.
The women all had CELL PHONES. The fact that they have the phones seems like pretty good evidence that the assertion that they can't make contact with the outside or get help if they wanted it is false.
Anon 9:50
Have you entertained the thought that it is rather doubtful women who have been indoctrinated into the FLDS thinking by the MEN AND OTHER WOMEN (especially regarding the evils of non-FLDS people) would use their cell phones to contact the outside? Is it possible the fear of getting caught and suffering consequences decided upon by MEN would override any such action?
Is it possible that only those the MEN judged the most trustworthy of the women had cell phones?
Perhaps the women who elected to go to the local women's shelter rather than return to the compound never knew there was such an option open to them.
Just food for thought. Personally I've seen nothing that would cause me to think these women know they have rights beyond the ones they have mouthed to the media since the children were taken. Perhaps they are so brainwashed they choose to know no other type of life. Perhaps their lawyers have a chance to enlighten them.
Underage marriages
Child abuse.
Polygamy.
Welfare abuse.
Warren Jeffs.
Authoritarian leadership
Lost Boys.
Closed compounds
Extreme secrecy.
These are all symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself. If all we do is focus on the symptoms, we will never change or correct the problem.
What is the problem? It is the removal of the one thing that makes us, as humans, different than any other animal on the Earth, and the one thing that has given the human race the ability to elevate our standard of living and life.... it is called freedom.
Now we have heard some of those at the ranch say they are free, but are they really? Lets break it down and look at it. For the sake of this discussion, I’ll refer to beliefs as how we see the world around us, and values as how we react to what we see through our beleifs.
We all have beliefs and values. They have come from many different areas of our life. Our parents, church, country, friends, teachers, the media etc. Beliefs in and of them selves are not bad. In fact, they are vital to being able to live. We must have a way of interpreting the World around us so we know how to respond to it. The danger comes when we are unable to challenge our beliefs when they don’t line up with reality.
There seems to be two types of people in this World. Those who are reality driven and those who are belief driven. There are of course many shades of grey between, but those are the two extremes. Reality oriented people change their beliefs (their way of interpreting what is happening around them) when they realize that a former belief is not justified or is just plain wrong. For example, it used to be believed that the World was flat. It was proven to be round. Those who were reality oriented changed their former belief that it was flat to the new belief that it was round, as that matched up with the new reality, and opened up numerous new possibilities. Now belief oriented people are the type that for whatever reason, usually security, and quite often control, will not change their beliefs to match up with reality. They fear change, and love the security of a known and accepted belief (if only in their circle of acquaintances) If reality challenges the belief, they will intentionally block out those contradictions as it will alter their view of the world, and the control they feel they have over their view of reality.
We don’t see the world around us as it is, we see it as we are. Also, there is nothing particularly wrong with being belief or reality oriented, that is our right. The problem comes when we won’t allow those around us the opportunity to check their beliefs against reality.
Every animal on this earth has a set of beliefs and values programmed into them at birth, or if a domesticated animal, trained into them; over which the animal itself has no ability to challenge or change on its own. Humans are the only species that have the ability to challenge and change not only how we see the world around us (beliefs) but how we react to the world around us (values). This freedom to look at our beliefs and values and to change them, since it is unique only to humans, I would think should be our most precious gift, and guarded and protected with the utmost fervor. Free agency in other words, and it is responsible for most of if not all of the major advancements of human kind on the Earth. It is free agency that establishes what is right and wrong in our minds. Humans are the only ones who can tell the difference, which makes them harder to control than any other species, yet we can be easily lead, if we desire the same destination as the leader. Those who want to control us, must first minimize our ability to rationalize our beliefs with reality: often referred to as brainwashing.
Back to the FLDS. Its not that their beliefs or values are all bad, although some don’t seem to line up with reality. In fact, many of their values are admired by many, and can be argued are rather godlike characteristics. But if we are to be saved on our actions alone, why did God give us free agency? It is the inability of the members to challenge their beliefs and values that is the problem. The removal of free agency.
Just like we must eat to live, we should not live to eat. In much the same way, we must have a belief and value system (many call it religion) to function in this world, but if that belief and value system is our world, we have a problem. Meaning by that statement that if it does not line up with our beliefs, we ignore reality or remove ourselves from it.
It didn’t happen all at once in the FLDS, it was a slow progression. There were those with similar beliefs and values who got together in the early 1900's because they had the belief that plural marriage was necessary to make it into the Celestial Kingdom. I am not going to argue whether or not that is a valid belief, that is for each adult to determine on their own, but since that is a choice that will affect us for the rest of our lives, we must make it ourselves and be old enough to decide if it lines up with the life we desire. However, those who joined together felt so strongly about the correctness of their beliefs, they wanted to make sure their children followed in their footsteps. They begin to teach the belief that anything not in line with their beliefs was automatically of the world, and was evil. Therefore, the value of avoiding anything that contradicted their beliefs. As each succeeding generation refined this belief and value, it ultimately culminated in what we see today in the FLDS. A theocracy where the only person on the Earth today who can change the beliefs or values is the prophet. It has also resulted in extreme mind control and environment control.
Essentially, in the current FLDS, you are given your belief and value system. You can’t challenge it or change it, as it is from God. The only person who can is the prophet. There are naturally going to be those who are reality oriented, so in order to cut down on the possible questions to the rightness of the belief system, their surroundings are controlled, and they are taught to block or remove any thought contrary to the belief system, as it is from the devil. Do they have any choices? Yes, they may have some choices, but only the ones that fit within the belief system of the religion. This makes the people totally dependant on the leader to make any decision, and has therefore resulted in the removal of their own freedom or free agency. This is the root problem that must be corrected. If we attack only the symptoms, we only reinforce the beliefs that the “World” is out to destroy them because they are good, the world is bad. It then become religious persecution.
Every one of the issues stated at the first of this post are results of this type of environment. In essence, those who are leading are trying to control the reality of those under them so they won’t challenge the belief system and become “lost.” Or, for those on welfare, they have the belief that they should bring as many spirits into the world as possible, yet they can’t take care of them financially, so the must rely on welfare to pick up the tab. They don’t question the reality that if they can’t take care of them in this life, how they will in the next. No, they simply believe that they are doing God’s will, and therefor are entitled to welfare as it’s the Lord’s way of providing. Also in an effort to be certain that the maximum number of family members are saved, any of those who challenge the belief system or the right of the leaders must be sent away to preserve the purity of the rest of the family (lost boys, and contrary to some, many did not want to leave). It is also seen proper to marry of the daughters, in some cases, rather young to ensure that they are sealed to a good man and therefore saved (I firmly believe that the majority of the men marry and give in marriage their daughters to “save” them, not for sexual gratification).
This is the reality they live in because of their beliefs, and their inability to challenge those beliefs and compare them to reality. Most of those involved don’t realize they are helping to further the removal of their rights and those of their families. They simply have faith (which is a belief of something that has not yet happened. As soon as it has happened, it becomes knowledge) that their version of reality is the only way, the right way, the guaranteed way to get back to Heaven.
Of course, there are those who don’t agree with all the beliefs and are sent out and labeled apostate. Problem there is that many have gotten used to forcing their beliefs onto others, and turn and try to force their new belief system on those they split from. Both assert that the other is wrong, yet neither dares listen to the other for fear that their beliefs will be altered in some way. They both hack away at the fruit of the problem and ignore the root cause.
We are free to believe anything we want in the great Country, and I firmly believe it is a God given right to everyone. However, when our beliefs and the resulting actions of our values remove the freedom of another, our freedom ends.
Yes, I think the best place for children is with the parents. I also think the parents need to be able to, as the children mature, give them the opportunity to make their own choices. Religion in and of itself is not bad, it is tool to interpret the World around us and gives us values of how to respond. The problem is when we let our religion become our world without the ability to check it against reality (anyone read the history of the Dark Ages?). It is when we can’t explain why we believe the way we do other than we have been taught it is right. It is when we don’t dare questions our beliefs, yet in turn force those beliefs on others by controlling their lives, thoughts and surroundings that real abuse is happening.
I hope this is a big enough reality check to the parents down there, and all across this great land of America, that they and we will start to exercise the greatest of human endowments, our freedom to think for ourselves, and allow their children the same opportunity.
Don’t get me wrong, many of the “symptoms” I listed are wrong and must be corrected. But, if the root problem is not changed, the symptoms will only continue to surface, time and time again. Sometimes the only way to start this process is when reality collides so hard with the belief system, that the individual(s) begin to realize that suppression of personal free agency results in their inability to accomplish even their most basic goals and ambitions in life, the inability to live within their former “reality.”. Education is also critical, as it expands our views, and can often start us on a journey of questioning what we believe in, and why, without the artificial environment of controlled physical surroundings, thought control, or belief control.
I believe that why we believe in something is every bit as important as what we believe in, and the ability to ask those questions of our beliefs to be the most important.
IITMOC
"I am amazed at how many people believe what ever the media says and what ever the CPS says-all before proven guilty. Did you guys never study out constitution? And that stupid tale about the BED- it was a place where members could lie down if they had fasted and the sermon was getting long and they felt faint. They also have them at the regular Mormon church. Such a bunch of crap presented- guilty until proven innocent? And how should the nursing babies be abused? They were looking for a 16 year old- why did they take the whole town? "
thats funny........ one of the FLDS members said it was where the "caretaker" of the temple slept.......
Today on the AP newswire there was a story about FLDS fashion. I wanted to see if anyone knew if this quote was accurate:
"The clothing is also stitched with special markings "to protect the body and to remind you of your commitment," Bennion says. She declined to go into detail about the stitchings because she said it would be an infraction against the fundamentalist Mormon community to talk about their sacred symbols."
Is she talking about longies? I haven't seen anything stitched into women's dresses. Am I wrong or is this a bad rumor waiting to happen?
Liz,
It's about the "longies" as you put it. More correctly, they're called "temple garments."
Here is a link to a 4 part documentary.
http://www.azfamily.com/sharedcontent/southwest/azfamily/features/polygamy/index2.html
I am really shocked that this nonsense has been happening in America. Im not even talking about the very young child bride issue anymore, just the crazy dictatorship.
Thank goodness Texas realized was the situation was way out of line. Didnt Jeffs ever hear the phrase, "Don't mess with Texas"?
btw, DNA testing has proven that Native Americans are definitely NOT from Israeli seed. Doesn't this fact make anyone wonder about the Book of Mormon? Perhaps this has something to do with why internet, tv, and education is not allowed...
Truly shocked that this has been happening right here in America~
There's never been any evidence of child abuse of 4 year olds, only accusations about teen brides. So why are the 4 year olds being held? Seems like fascist overreach.
Anonymous/keep sweet texas/stg,
Yes, it does matter if there is probably cause or not.
And, no, judges do not always do the right thing. In most cases, in this country, in the last 20 years, they have often done the very worst thing.
Look at most of the rulings of Federal Circuit Judges and Supreme Court Justices. It is harder and harder for the little guy to stand up for himself.
And the judge in this case is obviously biased and slanted. 20 teen pregnancies hardly indicates abuse.
I'll say it again. If 20 teen pregnancies in a COMMUNITY means abuse, then I guess every community needs to be rounded up, according to you.
You need to take your personal dislike of FLDS out of this and look at the bigger picture. Your "end justifies the means" / get revenge attitude is exactly what allowed Hitler to take over Germany with the Nazi Party. Go read some history books.
I am sorry this is crazy, They keep speaking about the pregnant girls in that compound I graduated highschool in a small town in california called Rialto and I had in my pregnant minor class (yes there was a class for us) 19 girls pregnant and about 15 of them who already had a baby or children and this was in 1997 so where is child protective services now
"Why not just voted State Representative Harvey Hildebran out of office with a wave and smile?
Then again, you can thank Utah's very own Attorney General Mark Shurtleff for making the trip to Texas to show the error of their ways and get that law passed. AG Shurtleff IS up for re-election. Hope he loses over this ! "
Freedom Mama,
Thank you for the response, and for the info. The only problem is that most people don't pay attention to the elections or the issues, and a lot of really bad leaders stay in office for years. When apathy takes over, it is a sad state of affairs. I can only hope that, in Utah's case, enough people know about AG Shurtleff and oust him, like you said! :)
"October 27, 1838 Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an "extermination order" legalizing the murder of Mormons in Missouri. Under that order there were many murders committed and entire settlements were invaded & burned while men, women and children were massacred."
Well, apparently, according to the lawmakers of the State of Texas, there is no difference between 1838 and 2008.
"There is still debate about whether it was the davidians or the government who were the agressors at Waco if you want a more modern example."
Personally, I've been avoiding the Waco similarities, as I know Waco can polarize a lot of people. However, Waco was one of the first things I thought of when I first saw this news story break. And I started thinking, "We never really did see David Koresh on TV. All we really had to go on was what the media and law enforcement said about him." So, I started to do some digging. Yes, Koresh was weird and a hick. And, yes, he thought he was a prophet. But his weirdness and the situation there was grossly exaggerated. And I listened to the 911 recordings of the raid, as well as many exchanges between people inside that compound and the FBI. Koresh and his companions were begging for media coverage. They were begging to talk to the press. And the FBI constantly lied, and their lies were caught on tape. And the National Guard was mooning the Branch Davidians in the compound. When Koresh brought that up, the FBI said it was because those soldiers were immature, and many of them had never been in a tank before, or handled massive weapons before. On top of that, the FBI autopsy / examiner who was first on the scene after the fire said there were no signs of drugging or suicide. He showed photos. People were run over and torn apart by tanks. And I watched video of the Sheriff, who said Koresh was very easy to get along with, and did not want trouble with the law. Finally, I saw several sworn testimonies and heard a recording of Koresh calling the ATF several weeks before the raid. He had learned they were interested in him, and invited them out there to come search and investigate. They refused.
Bottom line, the ATF wanted a big press story. But it backfired. The press got out there 30 minutes before law enforcement, and it was a disaster.
Oh, did I mention that one of the first things the ATF did was to shoot the mother dog and her 4 puppies? From the rooftops, where the dogs couldn't have possibly pose any danger?
Native Texan,
Actually, I believe that my comment was to the effect that there are known high incidences of abuse and rape within the Texas foster care system. It's very well-documented.
I believe even one of the earlier posts included a link to a Governor's report with the statistics. It's quite frightening.
A lot of posters seem to think that just because no charges have been filed, yet, the children should be returned.This isnt TV where the crime is solved in 42min, plus commercials.CPS has 436 [isnt that the most current count?] separate investigations to do, with children who may or may not know who they really are [if the came from a reassigned family and given new names] or who their parents are. There seems to be a very blurry line in the parentage area. DNA will help with that.
I did 30+ years in law enforcement and good, accurate investigations take a lot of time. This is territory never traveled, just in size and logistics, alone! So, give Texas and CPS a chance to get answers. Just cuz you hear it on the news or read it online makes it a fact of the investigation. The news outlets are more interested in juicy headlines and rating than they are facts.
You are speaking about hearsay...the women who were at the compound were not at the ranch when it was raided. They came back from a trip to find the mess left behind. All this talk about rape is ridiculous. Statutory law was changed from 14 to 16 only two years ago in Texas. You are assuming some things to be true of ALL members. What about the woman who is 29 and has one 7 year old. Why should her child be taken? That is one example of many. Oh and why are breast fed babies being taken from their mothers.
Maybe the 29 year old woman didn't please her husband and was put away. That would explain the only one child.
I've been on this board for three years now - and I've learned a few things.
1. Most of us could care less how many wives a man has
2. Most of us could care less how old his wives are (be they 18 or 72)
3. Most of us aren't trying to change the religion of this group, and most of us actually have fond feelings for this group
WE DO ASK FOR CHANGE
If it is your belief that a man have multiple wives - make sure they are at the age of consent, and that the woman has a choice.
Have as many babies as you like - But if you consider yourself married, accuarately represent your living situation when you are asking for help
If your sons are a disappointment to you and don't follow your beliefs - Please allow them to stay at home until they finish high school, and turn 18, unless they choose to leave.
AND JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR
Teen preganancy (two kids in HS getting active and making babies), is NOT the same thing as a 14 year old who is GIVEN in marriage to her 48 year old uncle
George,
Your strong opinions are based on a couple of things that you WISH were reality, not necessarily what is.
You WISH polygamy were legal, but it isn't (and anyway, nobody really cares about that in all of this).
You WISH abuse weren't happening in this group, but obviously it is.
You WISH we weren't accountable to the government to the degree that we are, but...we ARE!
It's hard to debate on points of how it should be and determine what should happen from here on out based on what....ISN'T.
The state of Texas executed the search based on the current laws and guidelines of this country. It sure would be nice if, when the law enforcement arrived, the folks within would have had all the abuse victims in one line at the front of the property and all the abusers in another line, but that's not what unfolded.
It is useless to debate whether or not abuse happened inside. We all know it did, which is sad.
How corrupt the Texas foster care system may or may not be doesn't affect this fact one iota. If anything, it should encourage us all to treat our children the way we would want to be treated and in a way that honors the One who gave them to us in the first place.
As adults we are all required not to physically and sexually abuse our children. If our neighbor wants to make a false report, CPS is still required to follow up on it. If they find nothing, they have no case and they will not waste their time. If they find something, it is their job to remove a child from their environment to ensure their safety.
I WISH they hadn't found anything when they went into YFZ. Wishing ain't getting as they say and here we are.
Is it CPS' fault that their findings fell under the catagory of abuse? NO! Any other family or group would have lost their children just the same.
Am I glad that even a few may have been spared abuse - YES!
This really has nothing to do with their right to practice their faith or how corrupt the foster care system is. Those are just distractors from the real issue - YOU CANNOT ABUSE A CHILD.
The only issue here that is anybody (society's) business is whether crimes took place. How they dress, what they believe, how they raise their children, educate their children, etc. is nobody's business.
I'm just as disgusted by the alleged crimes as everybody else. For the sake of the children I pray they are either untrue or grossly exaggerated.
The negative remarks on the blogs about how these people choose to live or what to believe that have nothing to do with crimes are horrible. I've read posts saying everything from their children should never be returned to any of them regardless of the outcome of the investigation to their temple should be burned to the ground.
God help you all that nobody decides what you believe or how you choose to live is not acceptable to their way of thinking and unleashes this kind of hatred toward you. Come to think of it isn't that pretty much why 9-11 happened ... people who believe differently than we do deciding our way of life is unacceptable and unleashing their ignorance and hate?
Much as I dislike most of the stuff the ACLU does what I've read in these posts only goes to show why a watch dog like them is necessary. Take their kids, throw them all in jail, burn their temple? Who'se living in the 19th century them or us?
MC - "So, give Texas and CPS a chance to get answers. Just cuz you hear it on the news or read it online makes it a fact of the investigation. The news outlets are more interested in juicy headlines and rating than they are facts. "
I agree, that's exactly what I have been saying. Just because CNN reports "abuse" or someone writes a book (for profit) doesn't make it true and it NEVER makes it true for an entire community. That's just stupidity of the first order.
The flimsy testimony presented to justify kidnapping these children is appalling. I don't even watch TV and I'm disgusted. Insider information is far more disturbing. Couple that with EVERY attorney I know being appalled at the Constitutional infringements and I don't need CNN to tell me this is an absolute disaster. It's especially a sad truth to note that now CPS has ownership of those kids they don't have to give them back for years while they are "investigating".
I can guess that CPS's job is hard (I've never had that job) and I can guess they are good people. Nevertheless, I am saying that good people have the right to make a WRONG decision and they have made so many. Additionally, many of the people executing this may have not been fully on board but had to stick with it to protect a paycheck. Those are the economic facts but that's not freedom either is it?
It's such a catastrophe that we give these people so much power, they might mean well but they are just people. They can and will make terrible mistakes when the stakes are as high as possible – like in this and thousands of cases nation-wide. What are we thinking? There has to be a better way. Meanwhile these babies are suffering without their mothers. It just breaks my heart. I couldn't possibly care less about Texan "chances".
Atar - "WE DO ASK FOR CHANGE"
You must be proud now.
Too bad you subscribe to and support this. I mean, too bad for you and your team. You're missing out on what you could really be accomplishing. Have you read about the strategy of Gandhi, Dr. King or Nightengale? Maybe they learned few things and clearly you do not understand that.
Heavy handed NEVER works as well as thoughtful process. It’s a short term gain long term pain strategy. This is a disaster to your work, and to others asking for "change" - that's me included.
Some children taken by '53 raid never recovered. Hope you're sleeping. I'm not and I don't even have this on my head.
"Maybe the 29 year old woman didn't please her husband and was put away. That would explain the only one child."
OMG - maybe she hemorrhaged after her 1st birth and had a hysterectomy. How is it possible so many people can think in such a limited way?
freedommama,
Play along with me for a minute here.
Please pretend that you received the phonecall from this "Sarah".
Please give a detailed account of how you would have handled the information you received.
What yet another sad day in this country, when Big Brother is just allowed to go into another persons home, and do what they want without investigation first. You wouldn't see these jokers going into a Mosque, a synagoge, or a Black church and do what they've just done to these people. This had been planned way ahead of time believe me, and there's no phone call. They can try to blame it on Rosita Swenton if they want, but she is just a pawn in their lies. I am totally against child abuse, and rape is the most appauling, as I was raped at 5 yrs. old. , but there's no proof of all this abuse. This is another Ruby Ridge, or a Waco and we all best be on our toes...if it can happen to them...it will happen to us. Harken News people, how dare you make fun of the womens hair styles and their way of dress also, who are you to justify how they want to live? Where is Help for these people, who want to live their lives in peace...come on ACLU and get off your butts.
Signed...Joanne in IA. a Grandma and Babtist! Lets get real.
First of all, I don't believe that Joanne M. from Iowa is a baptist (not babtist).
The ACLU won't touch this one with a ten-foot pole if they've got any sense. They'd be in the middle of it if there was a leg to stand on.
Read more about the FLDS and watch a little less TV (that's probably what the ACLU is doing)...then you can form an educated opinion.
People who obviously have compassion are looking at those images on tv and they just don't get it. How could women dressed in prarie dresses with their hair pulled back in braids ever hurt a child? Talk about closed-minded.
YOU GET REAL.
"Read more about the FLDS and watch a little less TV (that's probably what the ACLU is doing)...then you can form an educated opinion."
Anonymous,
I believe you are the one who needs to do some more reading, starting with our Constitution. You can't just break into homes because you "know" someone is doing something wrong.
If the country lets the State get away with this, they will just do it again. And it will be for even smaller offenses, again and again, smaller and smaller. Eventually, you'll find yourself labeled a criminal because you paid your car registration one day too late or because your car was 2 decibels above the approved recommendation.
You might also want to read the legal international definition of genocide from one of my earlier posts.
Georgie poo,
Please understand that I am merely a member of Mensa and a conoisseur of leather bound books. My office smells of rich mohagony.
I read your post and am sitting here frightened. Are the feds at my door?! Your post reminded me that I am late on my car registration. I'm scared Georgie. What'll I do?
Do you think they know about that time I forgot to feed my dog? I am trying not to get paranoid, but I do remember watching that Big Brother movie in 1984. SPOOOOOKY!!!!
PS-I am a dog-walker in Iowa and I am a Prezbitarian. Not a 46 year old perv,
Mensa,
You may think that you're funny, but that's obviously because you're so busy judging others that you don't see how "Big Brother" this move by the State is.
Did you not see the post by the ex-police officer? By his own admission, he did not sympathize with the lifestyle of the FLDS. However, in the same post, he DID still confirm what many of us have been saying here all along. The authorities did not conduct a good faith investigation. They played God. Your prejudice combined with your blindness and sarcasm are a perfect example of how our great Nation is continuously dumbed down and why corrupt officials continue to get elected while most Citizens are too apathetic to vote, or at least use their brains when they do vote.
In your rich mahogany library, do you have a book which contains this quote? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ? Maybe you should think that statement through.
Georgie poo,
How open-minded!
Perhaps you can help defend the following quote:
"The black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth".
-Warren Jeffs
The FLDS group was characterized by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group (2005). They shared a spot with the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryan Nation.
Can you blame the people of Eldorado for not wanting this type of person and his loyal followers to "take over Eldorado"???
Maybe you should also get a mahogany library and put some books in it about the FLDS.
MENSA - Within that mahogany library of yours do you happen to have a copy of the Constitution of the United States of America?
Jeffs can LEGALLY teach whatever ridiculous sermon he wants. Look it up if you don’t believe me. I gather you can digest the language of the document.
Additionally, perhaps you should take a trip to Liberty Missouri or Nauvoo Illinois where Joseph Smith and his brother were killed for "taking over" as you suggest is so dangerous a prospect for the poor neighbors in Texas. Nauvoo was the fastest growing city in the US at the time and full of those stinking rotten Mormons. Technically, they were killed in a close town but the reason was Nauvoo and the possibility they were taking over the state. Be careful now, I don’t want to lose you. I bring it up as a history lesson not as a parallel between the FLDS and the LDS. The FLDS are distinctly different that current-day Mormons (LDS). I just thought I would point out that you are supporting a school of thought that ends in extermination sometimes by raid and imprisonment, sometimes by massacre, and sometimes by genocide. That's awfully open-minded of YOU.
That Mensa test sure doesn't expose lack of logic does it? You might be smart but you do not seem particuarly wise. Incidentally, perhaps you’ll be comforted in knowing you share this line of logic with a certain, I’m sure, very well educated or otherwise intelligent Sherriff in El Dorado Texas. Perhaps you and he could sit down and discuss the existential philosophies of Nietzsche or Keirkegaard or how Eistein’s theory of relativity really applies to quantum mechanics. Then again, he’s probably just worried about “those damned FLDS takin’ over the town. And, I’ll be a horse’s petute if I let that happen to this here town! Not on my watch!”.
Brilliant company with whom you choose to share a line of logic!
Freedommama,
Sounds like my direct quotes and facts have hit a nerve.
First of all, you don't know what I think or know about LDS or FLDS. How do you know I've never been to Nauvoo, Illinois or Liberty, Missouri? Accusing me of subscribing to an extermination ideology is hateful and presumptuous at the very least.
I could easily be a solid, practicing mormon who resents the ugly spot that the FLDS has put on my faith. For crying out loud, you've put me in the same catagory as the people who killed Joseph Smith(?).
Secondly, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that Warren's racist views cast a shadow of doubt on a group of people who are desperately trying to convince us all (with their media blitz) that they are gentle, loving, and pure. Instead, I see it as a window into a dark culture. You're right, though. They are protected by the constitution (did I say they weren't?).
I was simply pointing out the obvious. The majority of Americans (skinheads excepted of course) repel the notion that black people are tools of the devil - a way that the devil brought sin to the earth. Follow that logic and you will arrive at the conclusion that MOST towns don't want a very large group subscribing to that ideology moving in and outnumbering them (especially black and hispanic people). The reasons are clear unless, again, you are a skinhead.
Yes, Warren is allowed to say anything he wants and his followers are allowed to blindly follow. Similarly, Eldorado is allowed to feel however they like...last time I checked, opinions are also protected by the constitution. Shucks, were it not for those darn laws on statutory rape, they could have stuck around and taken over Eldorado. They could have renamed it FLDSado, polygarado, Jeffsorado, or maybe even Jessoporado. Oh, and since you seem to have a knack for history, let me remind you about the FLDS takeover of the twin cities (for every one cent paid in taxes, they collected eight cents).
So close, yet so far.
04/22/2008 7:32 AM
...child's right to be safe from outside assault, as well as to practice their religion.
Do you really want America to do away with either one???
While parents have a constitutional right to raise their children, that right is not all encompassing. It must be balanced against the child's right to a safe, and secure home. The state's parens patriae authority enables it to intervene in situations where the child is either presently harmed or in imminent danger of harm. Typically, children are assigned a law guardian, or guardian ad litem to protect their rights independent of any rights of the parents. Since children are persons, they are entitled to the rights guaranteed by the 13th amendment, as incorporated by the 14th. Under that amendment, children may not be used as chattel or forced into involuntary servitude. Imposing marriage and a "duty" to reproduce upon underaged girls is certainly involuntary servitude. In such cases, the state must intervene.
Parental rights- that is my concern.
How I "feel" means very little if anything when we refer simply to the law.
Has the State of Texas broke the law?
Have the parents broke laws?
Whether we like it or not, our legal system must be followed by all parties.
Frankly I would rather see 10 guilty citizens go free to protect the right of one innocent. Sadly the US has turned into a system of guilty until proven innocent which this situation captures perfectly.
From the day we start public school we find that regardless of our actions we often are judged by group- Billy and Suzy are misbehaving so the the Teacher punishes the whole class.
Every time the state is not held accountable to laws as citizens we put in place, it opens the door for them to take more.
One day they will tattoo all babies at birth and require parental certification.
We should all be very worried.
Hmmmmm.....let see.....
Am I "married" to more than one woman? NO
Is one or more of my wives a pubescent teen? NO
Did I help "strongly encourage" my pubescent daughter to get married to an old guy? NO
Is my 13 year old son working a full-time job at a dairy or on a construction site instead of going to school? NO
Am I forcing my lifestyle on taxpayers in my own passive-aggressive way by committing welfare fraud? NO
Whew! I should be good.
The flds has been breaking the law for years!
that is why you are in trouble now.
Pedophilia and rape and polygamy are wrong and unlwaful.
you must pay the price for your conduct. believe all the religion you want, but your actions are criminal.
If pedophilia and rape are wrong and those who perpetuate it must pay the price for their conduct, then what is going to be done to the foster families and CPS officials who have already abused several of these children?
Whoever hurts a child should be prosecuted - FLDS or otherwise. It's never okay.
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