According to anonymous posting a little while back, "Warren Jeffs is supposed to be released from prison from a period March 15-28."
I'm pretty sure we all agree this won't happen, but I thought it would be fun to watch as it developes into nothing....
122 comments:
yeah - I remember that prophetic word from a an anon follower.
What say you now anon?
Not going to happen, the Feds filed new charges against Warren Jeffs last week and promise more to follow for Jeffs and some of his followers.
Warren Jeffs faces federal indictments, grand jury brings more charges, from Trib: "but not unprecedented, to prosecute someone who has been charged with unlawful flight. Jeffs' ongoing influence in the the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints contributed to the decision to proceed, he said."
Read the rest: JEFFS INDICTED BY FEDS
Dnews on indictment: More on Jeffs
This will be and easy trial for the feds, it will not be difficult to convict on felony flight, considering how Jeffs was caught. Articles indicate that some of Jeffs other followers could face charges. Can we say RICO?
Don't speak too soon. He still has 3-16 days left to show his stuff.
Someone posted Jeffs had 3 to 16 days to show his stuff, well rest assured the eyes of Texas are upon you! From the sky!
That brave pilot and his heavier than air machine have new pictures taken at end of January 07. The FLDS continue with thier building projects. Notice the large amount of electrical equipment, a 5 finger discount from the Hildale, UT/Colrado City, AZ power company perhaps?
Here's a link: PILOT"S VIEWPOINT
That's a heck of a lot of cables! Just how big is this city going to be?
I'm really looking forward to touring that place someday with a little board that tells exactly how many pounds of cable is in the sealed off plexiglass room.
surely warren wont be sprung on the first day of spring??
if you notice, those dates are a week either side of the spring equinox.
is there something important about that date to FLDS?
if you notice, those dates are a week either side of the spring equinox.
is there something important about that date to FLDS?
YEAH, WARREN OR AKA JOSEPH SMITH OR AKA HOLY GHOST WILL BECOME A POOFER!
Hey I am pretty stinking impressed with these people.... When crap (from grumps) is flying all around them they just keep working and working night and day. I've dealt with these people before and they don't get mad, or swear and are very polite and courteous. Hey what can I say !!! They look like pretty good people. Besides the only stories we ever hear come from people that have been asked out and they are STEAMING MAD about it and want to seek revenge. So they say anything bad that they can. Hey We never hear from people still inside the FLDS Church
I guess I have'nt heard everything or heard all the crap that goes on in there but we each just judge off what we know and hear. Seems like we live in a pretty crazy world. Besides every cult has to have good sides and bad sides to it.
Hey how much have you had to do with these people?
I worked with them once on a construction job and they work like hell... I didnt hear one fowl word the whole time. They got to the job way before I did at 6:45 A.M. They dress nice, smell nice, act nice. I just dont get why so many people are so pissed off with them. Here they have Bruce Wispants come in and take over everything and they stay calm and dont make a stir. He goes around evicting people cuz he wants there houses and money and furnishings. I hear say they have to leave everything when he kicks them out--- all they can take is their clothing. Thats pretty stiff. So pretty much if they go to Wal-mart or something and buy a hamper or table etc.. if they bring it into their house Old Wispants think it's his and he will sue you if you try to take it out.... WOW CRAZY
I don't think you're on the outside personally.
Because if you were, you might think twice about the forty year old man sleeping with his wifes pregnant fourteen year old daughter as his third wife.
If you're on the inside - you wouldn't bat an eye.
And, FYI - there are people on the inside here - and they validate the experiences of those who have been booted.
I've work with an extremely well educated man in position of honor for over a decade, I also knew him outside our work situation, and in EVERY instance found him to be highly upstanding, polite and kind. I know his family and friends.
HOWEVER - this year, I began to work with him in a different capacity - and what I saw was unlike anything I had experienced in the past 15 years.
His behavior towards his personal staff (I worked with him daily, but not in his personal office) was reprehensible. I began to see how the polite, kind intelligent, articulate, humorous man was ANYTHING but. He was rude, arrongant, disrespectful, manipulative and downright cruel.
His office staff despised him (which explained why he never had the same staff for very long). Any work partnership he had was very short lived. I had always wondered why.
Sometimes we think we know people, but what we are really seeing - is JUST what they want us to.
To 9:05 & 9:32...for the sake of clarity (IMO):
You simply WON'T ever hear from true-blue FLDS adherents. Ain't gonna happen. (There's a caveat to that statement, but I won't expound on it here.)
It's not at all surprising you are impressed - and the important point is it's based on your direct experience. They are good workers and generally try very hard to quietly live their religion. They will never try to convert you; they are extremely conservative and, yes, unconventional. They are quite unflappable in the face of mainstream criticism. They've dealt with it for many decades.
Yes, you do hear from SOME who have been "asked out" or those who voluntarily left or SOME - like me - who literally escaped. Some very bad things do happen within.
But you're quite wrong if you think we're all "STEAMING MAD."
1. MANY who have been "asked out" are desperately (IMO) trying to "repent from a distance" and want nothing more than to be invited back into the fold. Like true-blue FLDS you won't hear from this category (although OTS is an exception).
2. SOME who leave voluntarily or escape as well as SOME who were "asked out" ARE bitter and even vengeful but only SOME OF THESE are bitterly vocal. You do hear from this category.
3. OTHERS actively seek justice for the wrongs and abuse they suffered. You may hear from SOME this category.
4. And STILL OTHERS seek to find their niche in the outside world and only want peace and security in their efforts to forge a new and fulfilling way of life. As you see in evidence here on this blog (and other forums), you do hear from SOME in this category but really not very many. They're busy with getting a new life!
Those who are "out" for whatever reason and are willing to talk are expressing their own experiences. It's their right; it's their assessment of what happened (or is happening) to them. Everyone experiences (and sometimes expresses) their own truth. No! We're not ALL "STEAMING MAD."
It's disturbing that you feel you have to resort to name-calling especially when it's based on hearsay, as you admitted. Why don't you tell us what you KNOW... eh?
If you're pissed off about what you "hear" Bruse Wisan is doing, the mature thing to do is email or call him directly and listen to HIS side of the story. He has made himself quite approachable.
You sound eerily like the former FLDS nay-sayers you are railing against.
Anon 9:32
Grain elevators, generators and entire buildings can hardly be compared to household furnishings. I think you made your hearsay up as you were typing. I think Atar has you pegged.
Hey, what is wrong with someone posting a positive opinion about the FLDS? I have been noticing that any negative opinion is met with great approval here, but if someone says anything good, it's off with their heads!! I think the 9:05 & 9:55 poster has some very good points to make. I know that there are some real jackasses in the FLDS, but in the same respect, there are also some wonderful people, too. Why not let him have his say? Why does everyone want to only hear the bad? Truly that is the beauty of blogging, people! To allow all points of view with respect to the poster! C'mon, Atar! I am disappointed that you don't allow someone else's point of view! You say that you are a champion of fair play, so prove it!
Not ALL FLDS are married to pregnant 14 year olds. And there are actually some FLDS men with only ONE WIFE!!! (gasp!) Try to listen to something new for a change! Maybe if you don't slam this new poster down, you may just find out where he (she?) is coming from! I for one am interested to know what information he has!
FeralFem, it is indeed a terrible thing that you have suffered, my heart truly goes out to you! The perpetrators should be brought to justice! However; every single person in the FLDS is NOT a criminal, and it is unfair AND UN-AMERICAN to make blanket statements!
Let's give this poster a fair shot at his opinion, ok? New poster person, I would love to hear where you have had your contact with them, and why you feel the way you do!(I am wearing my bullet-proof jacket, Atar & FeralFem, so fire away....)
Ain't Skeered
When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of,
he always declares that it is his duty.
- George Bernard Shaw
Ain't Skeered, you don't need a bullet-proof jacket with me.
Please re-read my post! You've obviously misjudged my intent.
How in the world did you conclude that I said or thought that "...every single person in the FLDS..." is a criminal??
Quite the contrary; I agree with the anonymous poster about their good impressions based on their personal experience working with FLDS folks!
All I was trying to do was define the different types of "outsiders" and that not ALL of us are "STEAMING MAD." It was Anon's blanket statement that set my fingers to typing my post.
Anon said - and it's mostly true -that "We never hear from people still inside the FLDS Church." I merely affirmed that hearing anything from true-blue INSIDERS just doesn't happen.
The conclusion should therefore be: of course you'll MOSTLY hear the bad - because it's the maligned, abused and betrayed OUTSIDERS who are vocal, not the insiders (or wannabes) nor very many outsiders who are trying to move on with their lives.
As for Anon's second post at 9:32... I took issue with their name-calling on Bruce Wisan and making assumptions based on hearsay. My suggestion was to ask Bruce personally if Anon REALLY wants to know what's going on.
I, too, would like to hear the positives. I ALWAYS like to hear peoples PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with FLDS - good or bad - rather than unsubstantiated claims and hearsay.
Anon's positive experience was good to hear. I was sorry s/he tainted it with his/her scurrilous second post. There's nothing to be gained from name-calling.
(BTW... On the positive side, I carry beautiful, fond memories with me from much of my former FLDS life. No amount of betrayal, abuse and chaos can take those away from me. As for the negative side, except for one, the perpetrators, are now dead.)
Blog on....
9:05& 9:32- I am really imrpressed that you can look at the FLDS people with your own expierences in an honest light and then tell us about it. Thanx.
I agree with Atari's view that all is not always what it seems. But, that does not nessisarily mean that your FLDS were like that.
To prove my point I will tell you that I knew my first husband for eighteen years before I married him and even though there were a few rumors going around about him I was willing to believe they might not be true until I lived in his house and found out the most horrid rumors really were true and became an object to his attentions as well. But (gasp!) I am not steaming mad. Nope. Not me. I forgave him.
Aint skeered- I do not have a problem with anyone posting anything positive about the FLDS. It is my opinion that there are alot of people here who don't, either.
Feralfem- I think I like you. I have many positive memories of living as an FLDS, too.
There have been no evictions in the twin cities. Not one....
Ain't Skeered
I think Jax' post kind of helps make my point further. It is not the positive aspect of the above poster you refer that I took issue with. It was the hyperbole and untrue statements therein. I have challenged many posters who have posted negative things about the FLDS that were not true. I too like to hear the positive things but they need to be founded in truth. The industrious aspect of the FLDS has been dwelt on in the past and is a source of marvel for many. However mislead I believe warren's followers are it is amazing what they have been able to accomplish in the various compounds that have been established. But as Atar and Feralfem pointed out, that does not mean all are a model of perfection. Nor does it prove that the Lord is behind them. Remember King Noah in the BOM was able to build a city and palace in a short time. All on the backs of an industrious people. In short it is not the people as a group that I condemn. It is the compacency thereof that allowed such leadership as has ruined a fair community.
BTW is 12:49 another 'positive' statement by the same Anon?
jax, I really hope your being sarcastic.
uncaduff
A Rock band does Warren Jeffs very funny! :)
WARREN ROCKS
FeralFem,
Please allow me to apologize for misunderstanding your post. I went back and re-read it, and I see where I went wrong. Also, I am very glad to hear that your experiences were not all pure hell. Thanks for setting me straight in such a kind manner!
FTTC,
Thanks for clarifying your stand, as well. I feel that this blog has done a lot for helping outsiders to understand more of the big picture, even though not many FLDS faithful post here. (There have been some..Remember Ann N.?)
On a personal level, I feel (paradoxically) torn between the good side of the Crick and the hell that WJ has turned it into.
There are so many good things about the place, but it seems that all we ever hear about are the horrors of what happened to a few people. While I would never want to dismiss the actions of evil men, or turn a blind eye to their crimes, in the same respect, even though Flora's father was evil, for every one of him, there is 100's that are not! But it seems like that is all the media wants to see, or people want to hear!
I agree that it is TOTAL B*** S*** to put ANY woman through what Jane Doe (14 yrs old) went through, and also what bbgae went through! NO HUMAN BEING should ever be treated like that! I am glad ALL of you had the strength to stand up and let yourselves be heard!! Let justice be served!!
HOWEVER; ALL FLDS are not guilty of marrying children, raping their daughters, treating their wives like cattle, throwing their children away, etc, etc, etc! There are some wonderful, gentle, talented, gracious, even SAINTLY people in the FLDS, and they don't deserve to wear the badge of dis-honor that these few others have earned. Their story deserves to be heard, too! There are two sides to every story, but sometimes the other side just isn't as horrifying and dramatic (therefore not interesting) to hear! (I am NOT talking about the true ones I listed here! I am talking about UNTRUE stories that circulate like the one about the FLDS killing their babies, and EVERYONE beating their children and holding their faces under water when they cry, and that type of thing.) That is all I was trying to say.
Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion, and for helping me to see yours in such a decent manner!
Jax; I feel that you do your best to present the facts in the most straightforward and unbiased manner, which I truly appreciate!
I also want to thank the Admin for making this blog available, and doing all the work to maintain it. Thanks, Admin!
Ain't Skeered
Jax
You were speaking specifically about Wisan not evicting anyone, right? There can be no argument about evictions happening before he cam on the scene.
FTTC
I keep getting logged out and don't have time to relog. This is getting very inconvenient.
Ain't Skeered,
Thank you so much! That was an excellent post!
I agree with you 100% -- especially about the untold good stories. And that's where I was coming from -- that you just SO RARELY will hear the good stories; they aren't salacious enough for the sensationalism-hungry media and public. They are just real and untold stories. You said it so well!
I do remember Ann N. I wish she would come back.
I have children and grandchildren there in CC. The ONLY reason I'm anonymous is so that THEY do not suffer their beautiful families being torn apart -- at least not because of their "apostate" mother's influence.
I miss them so terribly!!!
::tear running down cheek::
Namaste
The warrent allowing the FBI to have possesion of Warren Jeff's stuff!
WARREN"S WARRENT
1:11- Thankyou for that information. I was hoping the FBI could get possession of those things. But, I hope Warren gets it back when they are finished with it.
HOWEVER; ALL FLDS are not guilty of marrying children (What if Warren Told Them To),
raping their daughters (What if Warren Told Them Too),
treating their wives like cattle (What if Warren Told Them Too) ,
throwing their children away, etc, etc, etc! (What if Warren Told Them Too)
There are some wonderful, gentle, talented, gracious, even SAINTLY people in the FLDS, and they don't deserve to wear the badge of dis-honor that these few others have earned.
I agree, but would they ever say NO, NO, NO to Warren.
When these wonderful, gentle, talented, gracious, even SAINTLY people in the FLDS STAND UP TO WARREN, maybe they will deserve to wear a badge of honor.
But the longer they support Warren IN THEIR FEARFUL SILENCE, they are partners with Warren and his evil ways.
Sometimes I write something before I've read it...
Wisan hasn't evicted anyone. As everyone knows, there have been several evictions before Wisan came to town.
Forgive me...
To fttc:
What would you say to a newspaper article quoting Wisan as saying "The trust is all LAND. The UEP has never had a bank account"
Have a copy printed form The Spectrum. Interesting how things change when one gets greedy.
BTW
From one that is inside
To One Inside-
You, for one should know that the spectrum is not always correct.
My 'gentile' friends agree with me.
How about that wisan and his flunkies are just a bunch of land grabbing SOB's!!
(State Ordained Bishops)
:)
From my understanding the UEP WAS the land. The funds that were paid in for taxes have always raised questions. It seemed every year that more was paid in than the amount of the actual taxes. This info came from some on the inside who actually paid their taxes twice and three times as requested. The man that collected the taxes was rumored to be investing the money short term and skimming the profits. I know the leaders had an account that the tithing went into. But the same men were trustees on the UEP adn I don't know if they had a separate account for the UEP funds. It would only seem correct that they would but do YOU know that they did? I would not be surprised to find out that legally and technically that statement is true. Perhaps you can enlighten me?
So if it is all land, why can he say that they cannot remove the buildings, grain elevators, generators and so forth? They by his own admition are not part of the UEP trust, for it is made up of LAND!
Perhaps someone can tell me how certain
FLDS not living in the twin cities
owned or occupied vast tracts of property away from the town?For example
the Harkers at Delta,the Roundy farm in Idaho,Are these properties owned by
the above families?
Once buildings are attached to the land, they become part of the real property/land. Likewise, if anything is glued, nailed, screwed, or otherwise attached to the property; then it has become real property and not personal property. Real property stays with the land; personal property goes with the tenant. It is Real Estate Law 101...
Anon 12:41
You can't have it both ways. This was the same criteria used by the goons when evicting people before Wisan came along. I know more than a few that came home to find only their clothing and very personal items in the street waiting for them. They weren't even allowed the furnishings and larger household items that were NOT part of the real estate. Now that you seem to think this is being controlled by someone other than the goons it is a bad thing? The thing is it was a lot worse before Wisan.
While Parley Harker was still in charge of the Beryl property it was not in the UEP. After he stepped out of control there it is a little confusing (probably on purpose) exactly where the ownership went. It was said to be put into the bishop's storehouse. Which would make it appear to be church property not UEP.
The Roundy farm has never been part of the UEP. It was purchased in the name of private individuals back in the '50s or '60s. It was shifted around between various individuals before Roundys ended up with it. Those still there have been axed and are seen by most FLDS as apostates.
anon of real estate law 101,I was screwed by the trust,dose that make me still part of it? :)
uncaduff.
uncaduff
Go to this website set up by Wisan to explain what is going on.
http://www.ueptrust.com/#
Who is entitled to receive the benefits of the Trust?
The Court has ruled that “[the] beneficiaries of a charitable trust constitute a definite class, but the beneficiaries within that class are indefinite.” (Memorandum Decision, dated December 13, 2005, at p. 12, ¶27). The Court has further explained that, with respect to the present Trust, the initial beneficiary class
consists of “those who can demonstrate that they had previously consecrated to either [the FLDS Church or the
Trust]. Going forward, however, only documented consecrations to the Trust will qualify individuals for inclusion in that pool.” (Memorandum Decision, at p. 20, n.69). In accordance with the Court’s guidance, the Fiduciary has requested that the reformed Trust provide for a beneficiary class as: “those individuals (1) who can demonstrate that they had previously made Contributions to either the Trust or the FLDS Church; or (2) who subsequent to date of this Reformed Trust Declaration make documented Contributions to the Trust which
Contributions are approved by the Board of Trustees.” (Fiduciary’s Proposed Reformation, at § 3.2).
There is a deadline March 31, 2007 appoaching to fill out a petition of benefits.
http://www.ueptrust.com/UEPTImages/PetitionforBenefits.pdf
I just realized today is the beginning of the predicted period. Anyone seen warren hanging out at CC?
uncaduff
That's a tough one cuz you got screwed by the trust not to the trust. Now had they screwed you clear into the ground there instead of making sure you left it you would have a prayer. :)
FBI in court to keep Jeffs items, here's more: FBI vrs Warren
IMO the items are evidence of Warren's crimes and should be retained by LE as evidence.
Everyone has the right to religious freedom, including Warren. But, I think he has about as much right to hold onto those documents and things as a junky does to holding onto his drug paraphanillia that was found in HIS car.
There is a reason why he doesn't want them to get it. Just like there was a reason he ran from prosecution. Just like there is a reason he doesn't want his trial to continue in St. George.
I think the poll to determine the people's opinions of him (for his potential jury) in Washington county and local areas is complete crap.
He needs to stay here....but even if his trial is moved, I do not think there is a place in Utah he can go to escape our opinions....
He is a coward....
Aint Skeered
I was specifically responding to a poster who was doing a blanket denial of everyones experience, all evidence to the contrary because he worked with a few polite, hard working fellows.
Personally I found him disingenuous - and don't believe he is an 'outsider'.
I wasn't being blanket negative about FLDS - only his ability to judge ALL FLDS based on his stated limited personal experience and despite all opposing information.
You must not have been on this blog long, or you would have understood that many of the LDS, FLDS, XFLDS, and NFLDS (never FLDS) have forged a funky sort of friendship full of respect, plucky interactions, humor and genuine fondness.
This respect extends to the lifestyles and religious beliefs/practices so long as there is no harm done to minors. I think we all agree that consenting adults can do as they please - but are united in our outrage when young children and adolescents are involved.
Does anyone know how Bill Roundy is doing? I know the Holm's women left him, but other than that I was wondering what if anything people know about what is going on up there.
Is there a Warrenite Nicholas Holm in the FLDS group?
Bill Roundy is doing well enough. He is 83 years old and still gets out to change hand line sprinkler pipe. A rise in commodity prices always helps but the dairy and farm is still chugging along. He was one of the first to get the axe from Warren. He is old and sometimes a grouch as old people that are not what they remember being can get. Over all he holds no ill will toward anyone. He still stands on the same principles that he always did.
A child of BR
So...I drove past Purgatory (jail) today. It is still standin. Locks secure. i didn't see any 'plyg rigs' trying desperatly but failing to look inconspicious behind the sparse sagebrush anywahere nearby....
I didn't see Warren, either.
Wait! There was this tall dark haired man jogging down the road. Couldn't nave been him, though, because he was wearing shorts and a t-shirt...
Then again.....
Well I can mail Warren my Get Out of Purgatory Jail Free card.
How much do you think he would pay me for it?
LOL- That was funny!
He would probabally tell you, you have to give it to him or you will go to hell....
I have been to 'Roundy's Ranch' and what I saw of 'Uncle' Bill, I liked. You gotta admire a man who refuses to grow old and who still goes out into the fields in the early mornings when he's in his eighties to change the sprinklers. (Those pipes are HUGE and HEAVY!)
Warren Jeffs defense attorneys have a new defense plan, attack traffic stop as illegal making all evidence not admissable in court. LE contends they had probable cause.
From newspaper article: "The traffic stop in the instant case ran afoul of the Fourth Amendment because no reasonable suspicion of a traffic violation can be articulated," defense attorney Walter Bugden Jr."
Read rest from D-News: JEFFS LAWYER SPEAKS
It appears that the FLDS at their South Dakota compound are watching their neighbors, the built a tower. Guess they are getting paranoid.
Read more: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5459598
In Texas at YFZ it appears they are up to similar activities as this picture from the pilot shows. TOWER BASE?
Perhaps the base for another tower like the one in South Dakota?
Here's the link for news article above: HERE'S SEEING YOU
Thankyou, 7:19, 7:24 & 7:27- (Same person?)
Information is always nice.
I don't know what to think about the towers....
I think the defense of an illegal traffic stop is crap. The officer said he couldn't see it clearly. He was just doing his job. How can they say it was illegal to detain Warren when he was on the top ten most wanted list???!!!
I still say whatever information was in his vehicle muct be some pretty incriminating sh-- for him to fight so very hard to keep it away from the FBI....
For that reason alone, I hope they confinscate it and thourally disect it.
Hey Child of Bill Roundy.... What is your email address, I used to work summers up there when i was younger. I have very fond memories and probably worked side by side with you.
PB
Polygamousbob@yahoo.com
Yea,
It would be interesting to see what info Warren was packing around. The FBI has been able to get through security on the laptops; seeing the info isn't the problem. Whether or not that info can be used as evidence in a court of law is the issue being battled over. Even if the FBI is stopped from being able to use some or all of it in court, they have seen it and, now, know all sorts of stuff about the people in Warren's regime.
Thankyou, 1:39 for clarifying that for me.
The tower in SD doesn't watch neighbors. There are four homes that can be seen by the tower and two of them are summer cabins and not lived in year round. I think it is to keep people in. The compound is on a dead end road so there isn't any traffic except the FLDS and the one home that is beyond their compound which is a summer home. MAkes you wonder what they are trying to keep within the compound.
Danite,
Were you a curious outsider whom 'Uncle' Fred let into church occasionally, or were you someone who had been asked to repent from afar, or leave?
Will the Badges go poof? A TV station reports that authorities will determine if Hildale,UT/Colrado City,AZ police will be striped of their badges.
No More Cops in Town?
Of course this will not affect YFZ.
It is most interesting to note that several of you have mentioned having been cheated by the "Trust." All trusts are inanimate objects that can neither see, hear, bear witness either for or against an individual. I think you would be much better served if you realized that your loss was not the result of the trust, but the trustees who squandered your money intended for the common good. Trusts don't cheat, men do!
Ripping of the NRA now muggsey? Guns don't kill people, people do!?
Just a stray thought, no bible quotes today?
I meant to say, Ripping off the NRA....
12:28-
I worked with a ninteen year-old girl from St. George who told me she and her friends liked to go up to Colorado City for their beer parties and party with the plyg kids because there were not many cops up there. I assume this was because of the question of the cops' loyalities. Are the police up there all under suspension or something? I think it is obvious there is a problem here. There can't be a lapse in legal authority, becasue you can see that it leads to more illegal activities.
However, I know a few of the men that used to be on the police force in town. They are fine citizens and good people. But, I think we all know in a question of loyalities they will choose Warren every time. Their defense that it is religious persecution is valid, and it seems to me it is the same one they always use for everything. But, I think when the religion becomes a source of liability, it is no longer a question of religious freedom.
I will also add that as far as I know, most of the FLDS officers try to make what they do legal. I used to think they did not have the right to arrest young people and drag them home for being out after dark, and then I learned it was perfectly legal becasue there was a city wide curfew that started at midnight (or maybe it was 2 am?).
And, I agree with Mugsey-
Trusts don't cheat, men do. And... guns DON"T kill poeple... PEOPLE do.... :)
bbgae,
there is no reason why Washington County
Deputies can not police the twin cities.
the polyg-cops havent been decertifyed,they just ignore all laws except Warren's.The local cops have been 100% for harassing the press,Wisan,dissidents etc. all the while ignoring legitimate crime.
The local cops have every right to get the media off of private property. If they get decertified the county deputies will HAVE to do the same thing. I cant wait.
lol, won't that be interesting. I wonder if Prime Time (ABC) will video county deputies escorting them off private property. I bet they won't wear silly hats though.
PB
Well, Utah's decision has been put on pause while Arizona does an investigation into the activities of the Colorado City Police. Their decision is not expected now, until sometime in the summer.
Also, Warren Jeffs' April 23rd court date has been postponed due to 'new evidence in the case' a judge said. I couldn't find out if or when the new date was, or if the new evidence was from the prosectuion or the defense.
If the request came from the prosecution look for the faithful to make more comparisons to Joseph Smith. Anything to make warren a martyr.
But of course!
Define private property in Shortcreek.
The roadway?
The mercantile store? Isn't it UEP property?
The post office?
City Halls?
I don't think the media was ever on private property.
I found another article that had more info. on the subject of my last post. Salt Lake Tribune.
It was Warren's defense that asked for the trial to be postponed because they are trying to fight the FBI for the right to use the evidence found in the vehicle when he was arrested against him.
Also, since Mr. Wisan is technically in charge of the UEP right now, doesn't it have to be him who asks anyone be removed bodily from any property?
The police kick people off public roads for doing nothing more than existing in CC.
That's odd, and no REAL cop would do that. The people they harrassed they feared would be collecting evidence of wrongdoing - so they didn't want them there.
Problem is - they did collect evidence - evidence of the police being inappropriate.
I think if you live there you don't see it - but police AREN'T like that.
EXAMPLE of regular police.
A man is in your yard, with a tractor tearing down your fence because he wants more land. You call the police - they WILL NOT COME because it is a civil matter. You'd have to get all crazy and acting like someone was going to get hurt, then they would come, and probably stop the man.
Even though YOU, the property owner wanted him off YOUR private property - they don't do that sort of thing.
So, to the fellow who is so all fired sure just a step on private property is worthy of an escort out of town - welcome to the REAL world.
Thankyou, Atar, for that example. You just corrected my view of real police, too. :)
Mr. Wisan was quoted in an article I read to have said something to the effect, "He would be glad to get real police in C.C. because he didn't think the young girls would run to the current police force if they were forced to marry an old man."
I really don't think a real police force will make that big of a difference in that particular area, as much as we might like to hope it would.
This is why:
I was nineteen and I was living in near lock-down. My parents refused to let me get my drivers' lisence and no one else would help me get it. (I had been married twice and was pregnant before I finally got it.) If I wanted to go anywhere, I had to first ask for permission, and then be accompanied by an older married adult (preferrably female.) If none were available, I could not go. I could not use the telephone without permission, and my Father answered all incomming calls. There was no radio, internet, or tv. My parents kept my s.s. # and my birth certificate locked away in a file cabinate and the key was hidden. So, I could not leave even if I had wanted to. I was also terrified of anything or anyone that was not FLDS.
I was in love with a young man my own age, and I couldn't even talk to him and I was so worried about it I made myself sick. So, my parents found out about it, and they tried to blame the whole thing on him which was completely unfair. He got sent away working for a company out of town and only came back to C.C. one or two weekends a month, and I got married to a man that was fifteen years older than me. And the whole time this was happening, I thought it was for my own good, even if I didn't like it. I would never have even considered telling the police about it. What could REAL police have done?
bbgae, you sound like a Musser. From all accounts that program was strange by any standard.
bbgae,Are you a Musser?Don't tell on the blog.How can I reach you?If you are
a Musser we are relatives.I would very much like to speak with you.thanks
3:33-
Here is my e-mail address.
tendifinia_jo@hotmail.com
Did the Shortcreek cops arrest the kids who blew up a rental tractor last year?
I was in Southeastern Florida recently, I pulled into a vacant lot (between the mansions) to take a picture of the Atlantic ocean. Before I could take my second shot, a police car pulled up behind me and told me I was on private property and to move. I think police are often 'owned' by the rich and powerful of their communities.
realula
Was it a cop, or a residential security guard?
It was a cop. I was quite surprised, as I am used to the openness of the Oregon Coast, Not the ownership of the whole coastline that is the norm in Florida. This was right along A1A, between Palm Beach and Boynton Beach.
realula
of course cops are owned by the local power structure.....everywhere.
uncaduff.
Here is more on Waren's Trial
I'll just add one more thing. The Nathan Allred mentioned at the end of the article is not Nathan Allred. His name is Nathanial Allred.
I can remember the first time the Twin Cities PD talked to me for shooting video on public property. I was off the side of a road getting shots of the town and Sam Roundy pulled up. He told me I couldn't shoot people in their yards. I had a good laugh, told him he knew better, gave him my card and he left me alone for the day.
It's not that they harassed me, they were just always there, watching. I pulled over once to look up a phone number and they pulled up next to me. I was editing video in my truck at night and they were watching me... Always there.
Then there was the time we knocked on Warren's front door...
Jax- When did you knock on Warren's front door? Becasue I heard rumors a couple years ago someone came to the door and held a gun to Warren's daughter's head and asked her where her father was. (Lies, I'm sure.)
The last time I was in town, I met for a few minutes with some family memebers who missed me. They called and wanted to see me, so I drove out there. I only stayed fifteen minutes. Of course, I had to meet them in a public place close to the highway, and three diferent pickups of people watched my every move until I left. It was sooo much different being on the other side of that. (None of the people watching were police.)
The time before that when I went into C.C., I didn't tell anyone I was comming. I didn't visit, just drove through and bought lunch. No one noticed. No one cared. Of course, it was a Saturday and everyone was buisy working on work projects. The people in the stores I visited smiled! (And, yes, I was wearing my 'gentile' clothing.)
Well, it suprises me as well. Because the story I listed above wasn't just an example - it was a real story, about a real call to 911.
Atar-
Sorry for the assumption. :) Your story sucks from the land owners' point of view, but at least there ARE good and real cops out there somewhere.
So, Tuesday the judge will hear the petittion claiming the traffice stop that led to Jeffs' being caught was illegal, and the one to ask his case be moved to Salt Lake.
BBGAE,
Is Nathan Allred the same person as Nathaniel Allred?
As far as I know, there are no Nathan Allreds. Nathanial Allred is James Allerd's son. I saw the pictures when he was arrested. I know it is him. I went to school with him. (Not the same grade.)
But, there are so many Barlow 'Allreds' now, there might be a Nathan Allred.
Richard might have had a son named Nathan, but if he does, I don't remember.
Yes, Nathan is Nathaniel. I went to school with him also and we were in the same grade. He was called Nathan as much as he was Nathaniel.
Does anyone know if Henry Jessop has a new wife? I have reason to think he miht, and I was wondering if anyone knew who or when.
8:00-
Thnakyou for clearing up my confusion. I have only ever heard him referred to as Nathaniel. Even the people in your grade whom I knew called him that. But, I did not know everyone, and I was not in the classroom with you guys, so I didn't know. I concede.
9:28-
HI!
I heard from a relative to a guard in Purgatory that Warren is constantly seen pleasuring himself. Has anyone else heard this?
That's grounds for loosing his priesthood, right there. Uh-oh Warren. Oh! Wait! I forgot. God wouldn't have made you prophet if He had known you would sin, would He?
maybe Gummer got a new rev,maybe it aint a sin no more.....?????
uncaduff
WooHoo! If this is a new revy, I may still be saved!
LTG
anon 6:55 - yikes - are you serious?
6:55
I think the only reason he didn't have this problem before that he gave unmarried people hell over is that he was able to go to the coat closet whenever the urge hit. Now he has no coat closet or religious cloak for his own problems.
has anyone else noticed this?....it seems like the people who are the most critical about this subject, are usually the ones with the biggest problem.
uncaduff
I sent out a feeler for the guards at Purgetory. I don't know if it will bring any confirmation or not, but there you have it.
The judge was supposed to decide on four things pertaining to Warren's case today. It is now going to be tomorrow, from the article I read.
I wonder if the Anon. who said he would be released was meaning the judge would rule in Warren's favor on these issues?
Sent out a FEELER??? Not exactly a good choice of words after discussing Warren's self-pleasuring issues! LOL!!!
Lol! ok. But I didn't really know how to put it without revealing my 'source'.
I don't even know if I will hear back on it. Hope so, though....
(FYI: I agree with Atar that Warren is too skinny. I much prefer my own living version of 'mailbu ken'. lol)
Acually.....
My choice of words WERE Sent out a feeler for the GUARDS........
I STILL like 'malibu Ken' better.....
(Even if the one guard has a tatoo around his bicep...sigh...)
bbgae
This is straying from the topic of the thread and I don't really want make it a big discussion, I am just genuinely curious.
Do you really find tattoos attractive? I have never seen the attraction in body art; piercings, tattoos, strange colored hair, the purpose behind them elludes me.
fttc I know bb will answer, but I'm going to dive in too.
Tatoo's - generally I don't find them attractive, the bigger they are, the less attractive IMHO.
HOWEVER, if the award for the most attractive male specimen was between a skeletal man, or a healthy, muscular man with a tatoo, and that golden 'malibu ken' look.
Tatoo Ken wins evertime.
Thnakyou, thankyou, Atar. I couldn't have put it better (or used as few words :) ) myself.
I will take it just a little further.
Fttc- Yes. IMHO, ONE or two (at the VERY MOST) tatoos are attractive. Provided they are placed to the best geometrical and symetrical advantage of both the tatoo and the body part it is placed on. Like an eagle with spread wings on the back and shoulders. I also think the guys like the little pin-striped and curly barb ones the girls get on their lower back. I do not like leg tatoos. However, I DO like rough earthy ankle jewelry on a man. Maybe that is Malibu Ken's fault, too. :) I don't like wierd colored hair. I don't like face piercings, but I am willing to negociate on that one, provided they are not too extreme.
I also like my man to have long hair. Which he does.
Also-
Maybe I've seen too many children's movies becasue of my kids, but I think Warren Jeffs resembles Scar in Disney's 'Lion King'.
If you're tongue is pierced, I'm going to give you bacterial endocarditis in a decade or so (which totally limits your lifespan), and I'm going to assume that you did it because you want to please your sexual partner, or because you're a walking 'I give great ______' (fill in the blank) advertisement.
Initially I thought it was just any other piercing, but an honest young women described to group of us just 'exactly' why people get their tongue pierced - and I can never unknow it.
blech! I also don't find brow, massive ear, nose, nipple, and ahem 'personal' piercings attractive - however, I have not 'seen' some...I am just guessing that I would be disgusted.
The only piercing I like is the belly buttom one on the women.
IMHO- All the rest are nasty.....
Hey1
I just realized today was the 28th! Anybody seen Warren walking around free? Nothing here, but the day is not over.
I really do think the Anon who preducted this meant the counter defense of Warren's attorneys that just happened.
I swear I saw saw his tall lanky frame at starbucks ordering a 20 oz breve latte with whip - how does he keep his figure?
Maybe he's really an OTVIII operating Thetan and can twist time and space, stranger things have happened... right?
bbgae; aren't your ears pierced?
I pierced my ears when I was 34 for the first time.
It was an earlobe virginity thing - and I had associated it with something unsavory when I was young.
NOpe. My ears are not pierced-yet. There is a specific even I am waiting for before I go get them pierced.
And- when I said All the rest are nasty(piercings) I meant body piercings. I think it's generally the norm for women to have their ears pierced, and the norm for one in twenty men, depending on the area.
I meant event.
What is the event? Cuz I am thinking about piercing mine, but I don't understand why I am holding back so much....let's go together!
Sure! You are welcome to come along!
I am waiting for my daughter to show me she is responsible enough to take care of the earrings and her ears, and we will go together. I am not sure how long this will take. She needs to mature a bit first.
But then...it's girls' day out!
I really love my pierced ears. I got so sick of finding clip ons or finding the pierced earring adapters. I'm glad my friends encouraged me do it.
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