FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Click the title - it's a link to the story in the Deseret News this morning.
Edited the link; it's fixed. Thanks!
139 comments:
Anonymous
said...
The link needs the "//" in front of it, or it won't work. It makes the link "texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660206525,00.html"
"All have sinned and fall short of God's glory" I see this not as a revealment, but as an affirmation. Jail will bring reflection on one's life. We all feel like failures occasionally, it's part of the human condition. Warren is certainly human.
Thanyou, Feralfem! And thanks, 12:55 for fixing the link.
1:04 &1:12- I think you are both right.
1:12- It's just hard to admit something you have believed all your life is wrong. ESPECIALLY if the admission could cost you everything you love and hold dear.....
Ahhhh! I see you are one step ahead of me, Feralfem! You saved me from trying to post this myself! Muchas Gracias! So, disregard that huge spilling of the beans in my email to you! LOL! (:conspiritorial grin:)
That is a good thing to teach about the sticks. This way all of the FLDS faithful can stick together in this time when you learn that what you have been taught is based on a bunch of made up things by a man that just wanted to be in control.
Warren is a liar and a cheater. He made things up all along. I wish everyone the best. They will not be well when they hear this news. I'm sure it will be a hard time for everyone. Good luck to you.
Is it a matter of public record? Or is there a privacy law that will prevent this tape from being heard publicly? If so, then how did it leak out in the first place? If not, then I want to hear it!
But - warren hasn't been 'one of you', he's been 'above you' a prophet. He hasn't to my knowledge ever acknowledged any of his actions or words as sinful, and his followers do not believe that he is sinful.
So, while this comes as no shock to me - that's he wretched and sinful like the rest of us. Despite whitewashings to the contrary - you would have never allowed for the possibility of sinfullness unless it came from his own lips.
So, if he admits he molested - will that make it ok? Cuz it seems whatever he says is right - no matter how screwy it is.
Why wouldn't Warren express self doubts? He is accused of terrible crimes. He is fortunately (as some seem to have forgot) innocent until proven guilty.
Shakespheare said it best: "To thine own self be true."
Self doubt is one thing, a confession of 'not being the true prophet' is surely another.
He knows more of himself, and his private conversations with his father than anyone - and if he expresses the doubt - is he even capable of being the prophet? Doesn't that defy the very nature of the position?
How can you follow someone who isn't sure he is what he says he is.
Some folks appear anxious (even gleeful) to acknowledge the as yet unheard tape.
I'm reminded of the old Mormon hymn: Hod to the rod, the iron rod, tis strong and bright and true. The iron rod is the word of God, twill safely guide us through"
bbgae; you did not say it was a SIN, you DID say it was "WRONG", which I thought was basically the same thing. My bad.
Ok, so now we can expect a post with your story in it? I know that will be very interesting. I believe you have a most intriguing past! I do not believe I said anything about "intimate details," but if you want to share, be my guest! In my opinion, if you are going to discuss a person's story, and ask for personal details about who married whom, and what they call each other, (grandfather, aunt, mother, etc) and how "honorable" a person (by name!) is and whether or not they would ever believe a "lie", etc, etc, etc, THEN...........(in my opinion!) you shouldn't get quite so fired up if someone wants to talk about YOU and your life in a public blog! Forgive me if I think that the rules should apply to you, too! But hey! Maybe I am wrong!Maybe someone did die and leave the blog to you! In that case, please accept my humble apologies!
If I spell the word cat "KAT" my spelling is wrong. If I spell cat "CAT" the spelling is corect and therefore right.
It's no sin to be wrong, with the exception of failing to accept the glorious Salvation offered as a gift by GOD through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sin. It's that simple, and, it's right!
Try it, you'll be relieved of a burden that you don't even know that you are bearing.
6:07- Here is my story: WJ Mental Breakdown thread 2/21@ 11:34. (I did not say WHEN I would (in this case, did) post it.
Now it's your turn. I DARE YOU TO TELL ANYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF!!
Bet you won't! (Becasue you are too worried about revealing too much. Hmmmm. I Wonder why?)
This is a new thread, but it is not yours. It is Feralfem's.
WHY are you so worried about ME? Why are you so interested in MY story? WHY do you care so VERY MUCH what I say and think? What did I EVER do to you to make you so obsessed with trying to hurt me at every turn? One might almost think you know me.(And want to exact revenge?)
So... the question is who do I know who lives in a different time zone, who would be offended with what I said about Rulon and Leona in the other thread (becasue they think of themselves as still faithful?), who KNOWS me and pieces of my story (your veiled threats won't work. I am not afraid of you! Anything you reveal about me will also reveal you to me.), who might have reason to want to hurt and/or humiliate me at every possible turn.
BB - you told your whole story already on this blog - I know you are not afraid to chat and open up.
I won't tell people my story unless I feel safe. If I don't feel safe - I won't tell.
I do not agree that you must be reveal personal details about yourself in order to talk about people who hurt you, or people you remember.
I think asking that, especially when someone is clearly antagonistic is emotional manipulation.
So BB - ONLY reveal something if you want to NOBODY expects you to reveal anything more than you already have. IMHO feel free to chat about anything/anyone you want.
One story regarding the tape is that Warren claimed he did not have the priesthood. He said he abused one of his sisters when he was twenty, and he had affairs with his father's wives while his father was alive.
I imagine there will be some of his loyal followers who will never believe that Warren did any wrong, even if he tells them himself. After all, he is not the only man who molested someone. He is also not the only one who kept reports of abuse from being made to law enforcement. It has been my perception over the past five years that Warren leads people that are like him.
*Sigh* I guess nobody gets the sarcasm. I am mostly just trying to verbally joust a little, and instead, it has turned into a freak-out. Sheesh people! Try re-reading this stuff with a little sarcastic tongue-in-cheek!! =)
Not that I don't mean what I post, mind you. I just thought that this blog was to help everyone to see all points of view! So why is it such a big deal if I express mine? Does the truth HURT just a little?
I guess I will go pout for about 6 or 7 hours..=( (wink, wink) Nite nite bb!
While you are pouting here is something to think about. My mother used to tell me that it is only teasing if both parties are laughing. As soon as you find the other party is not laughing at you it becomes torment. I haven't seen bbgae laughing at you yet but you haven't given up have you? She is justified in her comments toward you. You found a sore spot are going it bully it until you get your pound of flesh. I come on here to discuss, debate and banter. I think to humiliate and torment someone is dispicable. If bbgae feels I have done so she has my full apology.
10:58- Nobody gets the sarcams, because that WASN"T sarcasm. You said yourself you mean what you post. Don't you?
That was not a point of view. It was a personal attack.
The truth does sometimes hurt.
But you keep eluding that there are truths about my story that I am not telling. To me that says you know alot more about me than you are willing to publicly admit. YOU don't want ME to know about you.
I wonder why.
WHY do you take such pleasure in trying to hurt others? Does it help you feel like a better, smarter, person? Are you laughing right now? Do you think it is funny?
I know I am right on this one, because you STILL won't post ANYTHING (not one little thing) about yourself. One of these days, you will say just a little too much.....
I like sarcasm, and I LOVE alternate points of view, and I know how it feels on this blog to feel bashed in.
Honestly, it's been great learning about myself and others. I would never have believed I would actually be upset by how someone perceived me here - but I have been - and it sucks.
Sometimes I get all prickly, or someone else does - and we take a breather, and in the meantime, a whole different discussion has erupted around us, and our banter is no longer even remembered.
I really DID like seeing your point of view, too. I just didn't like the opther stuff. Maybe, we are alike in our prickliness? Let's sheath our claws, for now, and get along.(Let's also leave this thread for the discussion of the title:) )
What do you think?
Oh! And I found something, just for you:
Last Will adn Testiment I, the administrator upon my death have hereby bequethed the Texas Plolygamy blog to BBGAE. Signed, Administrator
(forgive me real admin. It is a joke between me and Anon.)
Fttc- You have never done anything to hurt me. You have never even TRIED. You suprised me. But you never hurt me.
I heard from a relative to a guard in Purgatory that Warren is constantly seen pleasuring himself. Has anyone else heard this? 3/24/2007 6:55 PM
I wonder if this rumor was leaked by the same person who said that Warren renounced his prophethood to his brother?
If I was in charge of the jail and knew which employee(s) went public with these allegations, I would fire this person immediately. Both allegations, whether true or not should not have been made public (at least at this time).
Actually, bbgae, I came to the same thing last night. I sorry.....=) It's just that it really is kinda cute how mad you get! You remind me of Taz. And, I know, I'm acting like Tweety. So, I will do my best not to tease you anymore. I was afraid you would catch on and quit responding. *sigh*
One story regarding the tape is that Warren claimed he did not have the priesthood. He said he abused one of his sisters when he was twenty, and he had affairs with his father's wives while his father was alive.
Does anyone know if this is credible? I would love the audio to be leaked. It is very compelling!
Sorry to get the subject back to the actual title of the thread.
I really hope the people in C.C. get to hear the tape of Warren for themselves. (Can we find a copy after it is released and leave it on a few door steps?)
I think it would be good for them to hear it.
I am doing my gleeful little frog dance just thinking about it. LOL
Here's a followup story in the Deseret News regarding yesterday's court proceedings:
Judge doesn't let FLDS leader address court ------quote Looking skeletal and frail, Warren Jeffs stood and raised his hand. "May I approach the bench?" the Fundamentalist LDS Church leader asked the judge at the end of a long day of hearings here in 5th District Court Tuesday. "I need to just take care of one matter." Judge James Shumate refused to hear it, urging Jeffs to speak to his lawyers. ------unquote
Warren's lawyers wouldn't talk about it afterwards. Does anyone besides me wonder what the "one matter" was? Does anybody know?
Call me bamboozled, but I pray for Warren. Am I the only one at this blog? My Savior wills it thus.
As a grandfather many times over (and soon to be great grandfather) I worry about the rocky paths that little feet will have to tread. I miss the absolutes that once helped me cope.
Certain things remain however. My Savior has still atoned for my sins. The Priesthood is amongst us. The Holy Spirit comforts. Perhaps the Creek will disappear, but other places of refuge remain in the Household of Faith.
An interesting page about Wendell Neilsen. Thanks 10.26.
Not being FLDS, I was struck by the comment that Some are reported to be "moving away" from Warren Jeffs. Those of you who live down that way, what does that mean? Is there dissent in CC / Hilldale? Is a split opening up within the FLDS about who the rightful prophet is? What have you all observed?
Given that imprisoning the LDS church's leaders only served (for the most part) to bond the LDS still more strongly, I have to admit to being surprised. Shocked even.
If he did try to committ suicide those months back, he might be on some sort of anti depressant. Perhaps it's interupting his sleep cycle, or it's making his reactions slow.
Anyhow, he doesn't look to be the same man that he was a year ago.
I wonder if he realizes he's not coming back, perhaps he's just not eating.
I know Ross believes he might be realizing the damage that he's done, I'm not so certain about that.
Whatever he wanted to say, it's probably something for himself, and for his benefit, to make himself look better.
I doubt it's anything for the benefit of his followers, I think he stopped thinking about their welfare a long time ago.
Does anyone know which warren faithful were there in the courthouse to see that?
Somehow "I told you so!" Just doesn't even come close to how I feel about the whole thing. I could smell rats right as soon as Uncle Rulon passed away,Everything just started getting real cloudy when they started telling us to not "question authority" I mean to me that sounds like He didn't trust people to believe him when he self proclamied himself as his fathers successor, I never heard his Father or Uncle Roy say that kind of stuff. I didn't want to talk much about it to any of my friends because they were all so loyal to Warren. Somehow though I still respect the guy. God bless him. Angry bitter words never get us anywhere.
If Warren J. is taken from us, then a title of MARTYR appears. I wonder how the Washington Co. court will feel about the wild resulting media coverage. The judge may really wish that he'd moved the trial northward to Salt Lake when he had the chance.
I don't believe Jesus of Nazareth would have ever started "Christianity". I don't believe He would have ever started another religion.
Think about how carefully and how patient He was to de-condition His apostles from some of the erroneous ideas the Jewish religion taught, ideas such as "an eye for an eye", sacrificing animals to God (I can't thing of anything more insulting, but I guess that was a step up from sacrificing humans to gods).
In fact His life was very much about patiently, and every so slowly freeing the people from the Jewish religion.
Please don't mis-understand me. I'm not bashing religion. Religion was a necessary stepping stone getting mankind out of the "jungle" so to speak. It was a necessary step in the spiritual evolution of mankind, kind of like the scaffolding on a building was necessary for it's construction... but the scaffolding is not necessary once the building is construction.
If you keep your foot on the religious stepping stone, well, that's where you will stay. To continue your spiritual evolution you've got to move beyond the religious paradigm.
And that I believe is what Jesus of Nazareth was ever so patiently conveying. He was careful not to outright say "Your wrong". Because the reality is they weren't. I mean, it's better to sacrifice an animal then it is to sacrifice a human (which is what mankind did for many years).
It's better to love your brother and hate your enemy then it is to hate your brother and your enemy.
But those are 1 level of truth. Right and wrong... well, that's one level of truth.
But what I believe He was conveying was trying to get the people to transcend where they were at and move on to higher spiritual understanding.
So let me ask you...
What if his apostles would have been strict to religion (Jewish religion at the time)... well, we'd still be preaching and eye for an eye. And where would the world be?
It was because they were able to transcend much of their conditioning that we were able to move out of some of the "dark ages" so to speak.
So I guess what I am saying here is where are you at? Is religion necessary for you at this moment in your spiritual evolution? Or is it holding you back?
To address your other questions...
To free your mind of the shackles Joseph Smith has placed on you you won't be able to take anyones word for it.
Instead find out for yourself.
Go to the temples yourself. See the symbols for yourself.
Get your hands on a temple garment and see the symbols for yourself.
To get the actual temple rituals as they were designed by Joseph Smith won't be easy. You'll have to get a smuggled recording of them. But the corporate church has changed the rituals making them less overt as to what oaths they were actually taking. So you'll have to get an older smuggled recording.
Go back to Missouri if you can. See if you can get the archives of the documents and personal belongs found on Joseph and Hyrmn Smith at the time of their death. Then research the meanings of these things yourself.
Regarding symbols...
Know this... symbols have a deep effect on the unconscious mind. And that effect can be measured. Healers use applied kinesiology to test foods, supplements etc. The same thing can be done to test symbols.
Get together all the symbols you find on the temple. Place them in envelopes so you don't know what they are. Have a healer test them one by one. And know for yourself if these symbols are positive or negative.
But know a few things...
A counterclockwise spiral is not the same as a clockwise spiral. On strengthens. One weakens. A Nazi symbol clockwise actually strengthens. A Nazi symbol counterclockwise actually weakens. The origin of this symbol I believe was from Buddhism. So there are plenty of cases of stolen/bastardized use of symbols.
A pentagram right side up is not the same as a pentagram upside down (as they show up on the temple) like the one you find here...
Now I know the party line is the devil has his counterfeit. And that is what Warren and so many others used to justify the use of these occult symbols on the temples.
But you can test them yourself. So you don't have to take anyone's word for it. You can decide if they are the "counterfeit" or if the use of these symbols on the temples was inspired by God.
The same thing can be done with the Mormon rituals. Test them yourself.
I know it is not easy to come to the realization that something you held oh so dear is a lie an the most cunning of lies based in some of the darkest of things.
But confronting the truth, that is what it will take to free the shackles that Joseph Smith has placed on your mind and has caused so much suffering these last several hundred years.
It takes courage....
Most people will prefer the comfort of their own delusions then the sometimes harsh reality of the truth. In fact they will often kill themselves rather then believe their whole life was based on a lie. This is why you see men, women, intelligent, competent, sane men and women kill themselves. And not only kill themselves, but kill their children as you have seen in so many cults.
... that my folks is very harsh karma to live down.
And that is where the religion was headed. More blood atoning, and maybe even mass suicide... that was going to be the legacy of Warren.
But hopefully that has been derailed.
Hopefully that buys a little more time for my family.
Hopefully they will have the courage to confront the truth. Hopefully their psyches will be strong enough to handle it.
And hopefully I'll see my family free again.
THE TRUTH NEVER SUFFERS FROM HONEST EXAMINATION. Have the courage to examine your own beliefs.
PS. Please do not think I'm here to make anyone wrong. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm here out of love for my family and to perhaps help those who are still caught up in the madness.
Airey-fairey new-age @ 11.45: "that is what it will take to free the shackles that Joseph Smith has placed on your mind ... Most people will prefer the comfort of their own delusions then the sometimes harsh reality of the truth" Not that I believe that you have the faintest idea what you're talking about, but I like Joseph Smith's shackles. I'm very comfortable with his shackles. They provide great inspiration, fulfillment, community support and friendship.
And what has your "truth" to offer me? Apart from an ability to talk complete and incomprehensible ass for hours on end?
I am not religious in any way. I just have to state that before I say...
what you wrote is a bunch of mumble jumble. I did not understand one bit where that came from or what you were talking about in anyway. Not sure how long you've been on, but you sound like you may be related to OTS. He could ramble on and on without saying a thing just like you did.
11:45- I can hear some of what you are saying. I think the part about Jesus is logical. I think you are trying to help people, out of your compassion. But...did you stop to consider that even if it is true to you, it might not nessissarily be true to someone else?
We are all entitled to our own perception of the truth. Pure 100% unadulterated truth is unattainable. We all do the best we can.
Thank you for posting. Because your post was so long, and probably was in response to something not on this blog, it was a tad difficult to follow your stream of conciousness.
However, I will respond to a couple of points you made, which I believe I did understand.
Firstly, Jesus of Nazareth, Christ, the Son of the Living God did come to fulfill his Fathers law, not to abolish it. So, indeed Judaism was Gods design. Although, as the story goes, the pharisees remembered the laws but forgot God's love.
The fulfillment of the law was Christianity, however, not unlike the Old Testament Pharisees modern day Christianity oftentimes falls into the same trap.
TBM, Is Joseph Smith on the same pedestal as Christ to you? I'm just curious, you put yourself in his shackles to him - I was struck by that comment. I suppose in some odd way it reminds me of catholicism, where someone else sits as an intermediary between YOU and God (that figure being Mary).
So perhaps you can explain how LDS works in that way - your comment left me puzzled. I don't think I understand.
I spent considerable time reading this today and from an insider fundamentalist perspective I thought they did pretty good addressing the issues. I don't profess to believe it all but I have no doubt that it is a lot more factual, and better researched material than the dvd.
The hacks, as they point out, never do seem to be willing to hold themselves to the same rigid standards. Allegations have always been good enough for them.
I did not see the dvd, or check their website, (feel free if you must) nor have I any interest in it. (Nor Muggs response either) These arguments are all old as apostasy itself.
Is Joseph Smith on the same pedestal as Christ to you ... you put yourself in his shackles to him ... it reminds me of catholicism, where someone else sits as an intermediary between YOU and God
Christ is God, the Savior of the world. Unlike Christ, Joseph Smith has no power to save. Joseph Smith is a prophet, nothing more. Joseph Smith was called only to restore the gospel in its entirety to the earth. While he certainly is greatly respected by Mormons, he holds no status at all beyond that of founder and great teacher.
My comment about "shackles" was in response to 11.45's use of the word.
Interesting that comments about DNA evidence keep getting deleted/edited from this blog. Hmmm....
Lets see how long this one stays around.
The rebuttal for the DNA evidence from that website, well, I think they could do better. Either way though the DNA evidence is rather damning to the Joseph Smith story and the Book of Mormon. What is the corporate churches official spin on the DNA evidence?
When I was caught up in the cult Warren had an answer for everything. Everything! Even the most crazy of things that just didn't add up. It seems no matter what the evidence is we only see or believe what validates what we want to believe. Will it ever end?
If you know as much as you claim you would know that Joseph Smith was not merely the founder of the Church and a great teacher but also the third member of the Godhead.
Grrrr....! I have tried three times to post on this and I accidentally erased my epistle EVERY time. Sigh.
Basically, I do not agree with Anon. that the signs and symbols and rituals used in LDS which can be interprited differently by other cultures (I'll use Anon.'s own example of the Nazi sign and the Buddaists use of the same sign); and because Joseph Smith was once a Free Mason, (We allready discussed the similarities of the rituals on another thread, and there were hardly any) proves anything.
All it proves is different views on the same symbols, not a 'secret' conspiracy. Evey religion has it's crooked 'laymen'. That does not prove the religion is really somethng other than what it claims to be.
TBM- I recomend reading the debate on this on the Share the light blog, if you haven't allready. I think it's in the third post down, the last ten comments or so, and Anon is agruing with Jade Butterfly.
BTW- Anon is continuing this debat on two blogs. That is brave.
bbgae, I think I found the blog, but it's really way too tedious to search for specific posts. So anon, you're going to have to explain. Go on, surprise me. How was Joseph Smith the third member of the godhead?
I seriously doubt ANYONE is going to believe anything about that tape admitting Warrens guilt! They are too scared that they will be in the wrong and that they will go to hell if they do. They all will just say "Its a test". But what is funny is that i've heard that Warren said he wouldnt be caught. It really makes me sad because he has put people that I care about that live in C.C. in a pickle.
TBM- Forgive me for sending you on a goose chase :). The just of the argument from what I gathered, Anon was saying her/his father had been mormon and had 'slipped' and told her something that had happened in the temple. She was also saying if a person took the symbols from the temple and other LDS rites before a psychic, she would tell you they were signs of darkness, or something like that. (THIS IS JUST WHAT I GOT OUT OF WHAT I READ.)
Uncle Rulon is dead. He is not in the next room. He is dead. He did not live for another 320 years.
Rulon had a stroke and Warren manipulated him, probably with the help of other liars in the group. Sound familiar to students of Alta Academy. Remember the sermon about Joseph Musser stoke and Rulon Allred. I think Warren should revisit that speech. He has done what he accused Rulon Allred of doing.
Warren is not a prophet. And someday you will hear him admit it from sea to shining sea and CNN.
Easy convert? I'll let you in on a little secret about myself. While level headed and fair - I'm extremely stubborn. While changing my opinions about certain things, my pivot point, or center has ALWAYS been the same. It's my root, my water, my fuel. Changing that, would kill the tree, and thus, just would never happen.
As a youngster because of an injury I had difficulty with my memory for a few years. If I couldn't figure something out, it was usually because I just wasn't doing it the right way.
When other people tried and couldn't accomplish it, they assumed it never could be done - BUT I NEVER felt that way, and tried, and reworked and tried - until I literally MADE IT HAPPEN.
Telling me No is like styling your hair in a blizzard - completely and utterly useless. There is always a way. I can find anything, I can get anything - it's just a matter of time, tenacity and passion (how badly do I want it?)
So no, I'd never switch unless I was going undercover,
There is always a way. I can find anything, I can get anything - it's just a matter of time, tenacity and passion (how badly do I want it?) atar-i... with that understanding,you have no need of any man made religion. unca-dontneednodeciples-duff
tbm 4:26,we were actually taught that Joseph Smith holds the office of the Holy ghost, the third member of the Godhead. this was taught in a Sunday night theology class at the Colorado city academy,and in "the Jr. school of the Prophets" a first Saturday of the month class for some of us "more worthy" elders. (I misplaced my worthynes certificate before the class was discontinued,and stopped going.) uncaduff.
Atar- I love the example of styling your hair in a blizzard. It's perfect. I think what Anon should have meant was.... you are just so freaking awesome, she/he would LOVE to have you on their side. (Although it would take a miracle to get you there.)
uncaduff: we were actually taught that Joseph Smith holds the office of the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead
If so, that's a purely FLDS thing. But I still find it surprising. Are you certain you didn't misunderstand? Joseph Smith made it clear in "Lectures on Faith" that he considered himself an entirely separate entity from the Holy Ghost.
In any case, the Holy Ghost is not an office. It's a god, a personage. Joseph Smith could no more be the Holy Ghost than he could be me.
And 8.08, chill out! Are you serving a mission, or something? So what if no-one believes you? How is that your problem?
Remember what Joseph Smith taught in D&C 121: "power or influence can or ought to be maintained ... only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— "
And I would add, "Without bad temper, rudeness or insolence"
tbm, your right of course,this isn't orthodox LDS doctrine. Ive tried to remember how they arrived at the idea,but I cant pin it down. as I remember, it came from an obscure statement from one of the early leaders, in one of the publications,like journal of discourse, times & seasons, ect. and no , I don't believe this doctrine. uncaduff.
fttc - I swore I would never do that, but I truly was waiting, by myself. I see people on these little gadgets fingers popping away for ages ignoring everyone about them - it looks odd.
I agree with the oddity. It takes me several minutes to enter a phone number and name for memory on my phone. I don't know how anyone can carry on a conversation with those keypads.
don't dis the text messages. I like them. I can't access the blog from my phone, but all I would have to do, was ask my techno geek hubby to show me and then....Bwahhaahhahh (evil laugh).
And let me guess 4:01 and 8:13 are mormon huh, thats weird Oh just remember the mormon church gave up the way they were taught so Utah could claim statehood!
And by the way people like you don't need to believe me, cause you guys have been lost for the past 100 years! haha
NO, I'm thrilled to be able to send a message to my kids, but I miss the small conversations that used to happen when people were waiting in a room without their phones.
I do love my Treo, I can use all my Palm software on it, and I don't have to carry so many gadgets around - it's my Palm, iPod, and phone all combined.
So, what exactally does this mean? Does it mean the evidence found in Warren's vehicle at the time of his arrest is sealed and will not be allowed to be used in court, or does it mean info about Warren himself is sealed?
My guess? The medical and psychological filings mentioned in the story are what's sealed... judging from what I read in the story.
I think there's been no decision yet as to whether the evidence found in his vehicle - any or all of it - will be admissible in court. (I could be wrong...)
bbgae, I have noticed that for all your frustrations with Grouchy Anon, he/she sure did influence your blogging style nicely! I noticed that you adopted the wide mouth grin :D and the evil laugh! So while GA may have been somewhat frustrating to you, it seems the interactions were not a TOTAL wash! In fact, I think your blogging protocol shows very quick progress! The post from Atar_i shows you what we learn from even the most irritating of people!
BB, I can walk down to the courthouse anytime I want and ask for a transcript of anything I want, the most intimate details of a confession etc. In fact - I can find much of that information online, and request e-files of cases that interest me for a small fee.
When something is sealed it means that the judge has a compelling reason to keep the intimate details from the public view, while the court has full access to them.
I did not read the article, more than just the first paragraph or so, but I think that's probably what it's referring to. I'm downtown today, so I won't be on - 'keep sweet' : D
Thanx, Atar, for explaining. Have fun downtown today. :D BTW- Do you know my mouse pad is still a 'keep sweet' mouse pad? LOL
Observer- You are completely right. And Atar was right. Fighting with Grouchy Anon was not all bad. I did get the wide mouth grin from him/her, but the evil laugh is something we share in common. It was there all along, just waiting for the right oppertunity to break out. I think the thing with GA and me is: our personalities clash. We unintentionally ruffle each other's feathers with only a few words, and the more we try, the worse it gets. But, that's ok. We both learned, I think. And I am not going to complain any more about it. At least we share the evil laugh, and I got to borrow the grin.... :D
There will be a hearing in St. George on April 23rd to decide whether or not the items found with Warren in the Red Cadillac SUV on August 28, 2006 will be admissable evidence. Originally, Warren's actual trial was to start on this date, but now it will be the evidence hearing instead. No feralfem, you are NOT wrong.
Ok. Maybe I missed the meeting where it was announced, but I don't remember anything forbidden about driving or riding in red vehicles.
As far as I can remember, that was just something a few invididual families did on their own. And, I know from personal expierence the 'red' thing was taken to different extremes by different families. In one family I knew of the father burned all his wives' and daughters'red, maroon, and pink clothing, and in a family connected to Jeffs', a daughter wore a white dress with teeny, tiny red- yes, RED- flowers on it.
Am I the only person who thinks that it was a tad ... EXTRAVAGANT that Warren was traveling around in a Cadillac? I mean, what's wrong with a new Ford Explorer or a Toyota 4 Runner? There are faithful followers who are starving trying to make ends meet and Warren rides around in a TOP OF THE LINE SUV !!!!!
It's not like he spent HIS money buying this vehicle. Or, does he draw a salary as prophet, seer and revelator?
11:38- :) No, you aren't the only one who thinks it was extravagant. I do, too. I also have issues with the way Warren and Naomi were dressed at the time of the arrest and with the theme park tickets. But, it's done and over and he's in jail now.
And...no, I don't think those reasons listed above are against the law and just cause for arrest. But... unlawful flight IS. I really think everything would have been SO much easier on Warren if he had just cooperated in the first place. Heck, the opinion of the people here (which he was complaining about and the reason he claimed the court case should be moved) might even be a little more favorable if he had not been a fugitive. tsk...tsk...tsk (head shake) :)
How does anyone on here even know that whats been going on is the truth Personally I think All that stuff on the news is just a load of B.S. They are just trying to turn Warren's people on him.
Anon 2:23- Nobody knows for sure what the truth is, except maybe Warren, himself.
I used to feel the same way about the media when I was still in. But even then I had to admit they got some things right, even if I did not argee with or believe the rest. Remember, the news reporters are paid to report FACTS, not opinions (except on fox).
Been out of town on extended travel for a few weeks, looks like there's been a lot going on.
12:05 warren has been effin' goofy for a long time, he belongs in fantasy land. Disney's is as good as any!
warren's lawyers have been arguing that the documents found in the SUV (it may have even been a red, cadillac, SUV) are priveleged communication between a prophet and his flock. If warren does an end run around them and tells the judge that he is not really a prophet, it takes away their argument.
And if he loses the judgement on the documents, they can always file for a time extension becasue of his degraded health. I can hear it now...'Your Honor, you can see how this whole process has affected the defendent, his condition has deteriorated to the point where he doesn't believe he is a prophet any more. We've got to have more time to allow the defendent to heal properly and accept the notion that he is a prophet'.
His lawyers will try very hard to squash this. It doesn't matter what is written down by warren, if its not an affidavit then its just a story or a novel. But warren doesn't listen to his lawyers advice very well. When Rod Parker announced he was no longer warren's legal council a few years ago, he said something like warren did not agree with the legal direction he was recommending. I took that to mean Parker recommended he defend himself but warren wanted to run.
Excellent points LTG. Thanks for the reminder about Rod Parker. I remember thinking the same thing when Parker quit him. It would not be out of character for warren to do the same thing to his new attorneys.
Your impersonation of the defense was a killer! I can see it happening though.
Once again, LTG, I marvel at your insight, and find I have to agree with you. :)
Fttc- HI!:) Where You been hidin' the past two weeks? I'm glad you're back. I was beginning to wonder if I had offended you or made you think just a little too much....
I wish I could give you that compliment but no, I didn't blow a fuse and neither am I offended. I have been reading the comments occasionally but have not had any time to post. Google has made it so time comsuming to log in every time that even when I wanted to comment I didn't have the time. There have been some interesting points made. Thanks everyone!
139 comments:
The link needs the "//" in front of it, or it won't work. It makes the link "texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660206525,00.html"
A prophet no more? Jeffs called himself a 'sinner' in jailhouse conversation
"All have sinned and fall short of
God's glory"
I see this not as a revealment, but
as an affirmation. Jail will bring
reflection on one's life. We all
feel like failures occasionally,
it's part of the human condition.
Warren is certainly human.
Oh God, just what is it going to take before you all get it!
What does this man have to do before you realize?
Does he have to admit to child molestation? What about murder?
How would you justify or put your spin on those?
At some point you've all got to realize you've been had! The whole religion is a scam. A scam from the beginning.
The day you can come to that realization is the day you can finally start to break free of the shackles that enslave your mind.
Or would you prefer the familiarity or comfort of your own delusions to that reality of the truth?
Thanyou, Feralfem! And thanks, 12:55 for fixing the link.
1:04 &1:12- I think you are both right.
1:12- It's just hard to admit something you have believed all your life is wrong. ESPECIALLY if the admission could cost you everything you love and hold dear.....
Ahhhh! I see you are one step ahead of me, Feralfem! You saved me from trying to post this myself! Muchas Gracias! So, disregard that huge spilling of the beans in my email to you! LOL! (:conspiritorial grin:)
The REAL WildThangFromCC
The link is fixed. Faux pas on my part.
Anon 12:55, thanks for the heads up.
It is often our common history that
defines us. Walking away from the
'Creek' individually or hurriedly
can well spell disaster.
Father taught when many sticks are
tied together they are impossible
to break. Single sticks can be
broken with little effort.
Father also told of a Native American belief that looking to the welfare of the next seven generations is a sacred duty.
Predators are watching with hungry
eyes. They will easily snatch us up and devour us, one by one.
Don't let them talk us into
destroying ourselves.
2:17
That is a good thing to teach about the sticks. This way all of the FLDS faithful can stick together in this time when you learn that what you have been taught is based on a bunch of made up things by a man that just wanted to be in control.
Warren is a liar and a cheater. He made things up all along. I wish everyone the best. They will not be well when they hear this news. I'm sure it will be a hard time for everyone. Good luck to you.
Wow! I'd love to hear that audio. It would be very interesting.
ya me too I think they will have to hear it them selves for them to believe it.
Is it a matter of public record? Or is there a privacy law that will prevent this tape from being heard publicly? If so, then how did it leak out in the first place? If not, then I want to hear it!
4:06
Read the article. Your questions are answered there.
Of course warren is human, many of us know that.
But - warren hasn't been 'one of you', he's been 'above you' a prophet. He hasn't to my knowledge ever acknowledged any of his actions or words as sinful, and his followers do not believe that he is sinful.
So, while this comes as no shock to me - that's he wretched and sinful like the rest of us. Despite whitewashings to the contrary - you would have never allowed for the possibility of sinfullness unless it came from his own lips.
So, if he admits he molested - will that make it ok? Cuz it seems whatever he says is right - no matter how screwy it is.
Atari,It wont make any differance to the FLDS,they will never believe the tape is real.
Atar_i
Would you care to share with us your story? I think it is very similar.
You mean my personal story?
Why wouldn't Warren express self
doubts? He is accused of terrible
crimes. He is fortunately (as some
seem to have forgot) innocent until
proven guilty.
Shakespheare said it best:
"To thine own self be true."
he as admitted his own guilt!
Self doubt is one thing, a confession of 'not being the true prophet' is surely another.
He knows more of himself, and his private conversations with his father than anyone - and if he expresses the doubt - is he even capable of being the prophet? Doesn't that defy the very nature of the position?
How can you follow someone who isn't sure he is what he says he is.
Some folks appear anxious (even
gleeful) to acknowledge the as yet
unheard tape.
I'm reminded of the old Mormon
hymn:
Hod to the rod, the iron rod,
tis strong and bright and true.
The iron rod is the word of God,
twill safely guide us through"
bbgae; you did not say it was a SIN, you DID say it was "WRONG", which I thought was basically the same thing. My bad.
Ok, so now we can expect a post with your story in it? I know that will be very interesting. I believe you have a most intriguing past! I do not believe I said anything about "intimate details," but if you want to share, be my guest! In my opinion, if you are going to discuss a person's story, and ask for personal details about who married whom, and what they call each other, (grandfather, aunt, mother, etc) and how "honorable" a person (by name!) is and whether or not they would ever believe a "lie", etc, etc, etc, THEN...........(in my opinion!) you shouldn't get quite so fired up if someone wants to talk about YOU and your life in a public blog! Forgive me if I think that the rules should apply to you, too! But hey! Maybe I am wrong!Maybe someone did die and leave the blog to you! In that case, please accept my humble apologies!
seems to me, it is very easy to be wrong, without sinning.... but thats just me.
Just Me
Being wrong is simply not being right.
If I spell the word cat "KAT" my spelling is wrong. If I spell cat "CAT" the spelling is corect and therefore right.
It's no sin to be wrong, with the exception of failing to accept the glorious Salvation offered as a gift by GOD through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sin. It's that simple, and, it's right!
Try it, you'll be relieved of a burden that you don't even know that you are bearing.
6:07-
Here is my story:
WJ Mental Breakdown thread 2/21@ 11:34. (I did not say WHEN I would (in this case, did) post it.
Now it's your turn. I DARE YOU TO TELL ANYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF!!
Bet you won't! (Becasue you are too worried about revealing too much. Hmmmm. I Wonder why?)
This is a new thread, but it is not yours. It is Feralfem's.
WHY are you so worried about ME? Why are you so interested in MY story? WHY do you care so VERY MUCH what I say and think? What did I EVER do to you to make you so obsessed with trying to hurt me at every turn? One might almost think you know me.(And want to exact revenge?)
So... the question is who do I know who lives in a different time zone, who would be offended with what I said about Rulon and Leona in the other thread (becasue they think of themselves as still faithful?), who KNOWS me and pieces of my story (your veiled threats won't work. I am not afraid of you! Anything you reveal about me will also reveal you to me.), who might have reason to want to hurt and/or humiliate me at every possible turn.
Hmmmm.... let me think.....
BB - you told your whole story already on this blog - I know you are not afraid to chat and open up.
I won't tell people my story unless I feel safe. If I don't feel safe - I won't tell.
I do not agree that you must be reveal personal details about yourself in order to talk about people who hurt you, or people you remember.
I think asking that, especially when someone is clearly antagonistic is emotional manipulation.
So BB - ONLY reveal something if you want to NOBODY expects you to reveal anything more than you already have. IMHO feel free to chat about anything/anyone you want.
One story regarding the tape is that Warren claimed he did not have the priesthood. He said he abused one of his sisters when he was twenty, and he had affairs with his father's wives while his father was alive.
I imagine there will be some of his loyal followers who will never believe that Warren did any wrong, even if he tells them himself. After all, he is not the only man who molested someone. He is also not the only one who kept reports of abuse from being made to law enforcement. It has been my perception over the past five years that Warren leads people that are like him.
*Sigh* I guess nobody gets the sarcasm. I am mostly just trying to verbally joust a little, and instead, it has turned into a freak-out. Sheesh people! Try re-reading this stuff with a little sarcastic tongue-in-cheek!! =)
Not that I don't mean what I post, mind you. I just thought that this blog was to help everyone to see all points of view! So why is it such a big deal if I express mine? Does the truth HURT just a little?
I guess I will go pout for about 6 or 7 hours..=( (wink, wink) Nite nite bb!
Atar....you are a sweetie. Thankyou.
Anon 10:58
While you are pouting here is something to think about. My mother used to tell me that it is only teasing if both parties are laughing. As soon as you find the other party is not laughing at you it becomes torment. I haven't seen bbgae laughing at you yet but you haven't given up have you? She is justified in her comments toward you. You found a sore spot are going it bully it until you get your pound of flesh. I come on here to discuss, debate and banter. I think to humiliate and torment someone is dispicable. If bbgae feels I have done so she has my full apology.
10:58-
Nobody gets the sarcams, because that WASN"T sarcasm. You said yourself you mean what you post. Don't you?
That was not a point of view. It was a personal attack.
The truth does sometimes hurt.
But you keep eluding that there are truths about my story that I am not telling. To me that says you know alot more about me than you are willing to publicly admit. YOU don't want ME to know about you.
I wonder why.
WHY do you take such pleasure in trying to hurt others? Does it help you feel like a better, smarter, person? Are you laughing right now? Do you think it is funny?
I know I am right on this one, because you STILL won't post ANYTHING (not one little thing) about yourself. One of these days, you will say just a little too much.....
A test,A test,A test is coming and who will pass the test.
I like sarcasm, and I LOVE alternate points of view, and I know how it feels on this blog to feel bashed in.
Honestly, it's been great learning about myself and others. I would never have believed I would actually be upset by how someone perceived me here - but I have been - and it sucks.
Sometimes I get all prickly, or someone else does - and we take a breather, and in the meantime, a whole different discussion has erupted around us, and our banter is no longer even remembered.
Now shake hands
It's the beauty of blogging.
Ok, Anon.
I call a truce.
I really DID like seeing your point of view, too. I just didn't like the opther stuff. Maybe, we are alike in our prickliness? Let's sheath our claws, for now, and get along.(Let's also leave this thread for the discussion of the title:) )
What do you think?
Oh! And I found something, just for you:
Last Will adn Testiment
I, the administrator upon my death have hereby bequethed the Texas Plolygamy blog to BBGAE.
Signed,
Administrator
(forgive me real admin. It is a joke between me and Anon.)
Fttc-
You have never done anything to hurt me. You have never even TRIED. You suprised me. But you never hurt me.
An Anon on the "Warren's Release" thread said:
I heard from a relative to a guard in Purgatory that Warren is constantly seen pleasuring himself. Has anyone else heard this?
3/24/2007 6:55 PM
I wonder if this rumor was leaked by the same person who said that Warren renounced his prophethood to his brother?
If I was in charge of the jail and knew which employee(s) went public with these allegations, I would fire this person immediately. Both allegations, whether true or not should not have been made public (at least at this time).
Actually, bbgae, I came to the same thing last night. I sorry.....=) It's just that it really is kinda cute how mad you get! You remind me of Taz. And, I know, I'm acting like Tweety. So, I will do my best not to tease you anymore. I was afraid you would catch on and quit responding. *sigh*
One story regarding the tape is that Warren claimed he did not have the priesthood. He said he abused one of his sisters when he was twenty, and he had affairs with his father's wives while his father was alive.
Does anyone know if this is credible? I would love the audio to be leaked. It is very compelling!
Sorry to get the subject back to the actual title of the thread.
It was also stated that he was sending someone to tell the prople he was not the prophet and then changed his mind.
I cannot think of the confusion and panic if they did believe what the 'messanger' would have told them.
They do need to know,but,they do not know how to think for themselves,go anywhere or do anything,without warren's approval.
It would be just what the doctor ordered. I hope the tape is played and the people can see the truth and warren is stopped.
G M
I really hope the people in C.C. get to hear the tape of Warren for themselves. (Can we find a copy after it is released and leave it on a few door steps?)
I think it would be good for them to hear it.
I am doing my gleeful little frog dance just thinking about it. LOL
Here's a followup story in the Deseret News regarding yesterday's court proceedings:
Judge doesn't let FLDS leader address court
------quote
Looking skeletal and frail, Warren Jeffs stood and raised his hand.
"May I approach the bench?" the Fundamentalist LDS Church leader asked the judge at the end of a long day of hearings here in 5th District Court Tuesday. "I need to just take care of one matter."
Judge James Shumate refused to hear it, urging Jeffs to speak to his lawyers.
------unquote
Warren's lawyers wouldn't talk about it afterwards. Does anyone besides me wonder what the "one matter" was? Does anybody know?
Very Curious
Call me bamboozled, but I pray for
Warren. Am I the only one at this
blog? My Savior wills it thus.
As a grandfather many times over
(and soon to be great grandfather)
I worry about the rocky paths that
little feet will have to tread.
I miss the absolutes that once
helped me cope.
Certain things remain however.
My Savior has still atoned for my
sins. The Priesthood is amongst
us. The Holy Spirit comforts.
Perhaps the Creek will disappear,
but other places of refuge remain
in the Household of Faith.
God bless you all.
Bamboozled, you're not the only one. That was a lovely post. Thanks!
I wonder how the "ELECT" in the various
compounds are going to react to this news?My guess is they will never believe the tapes.
Well, If Warren is stopped who is going to fill the void.
7:41-
NO ONE! :D
That's the beauty of it.
Or, if there HAS to be someone, or something, the first choice is God.
totally off the subject - but it doesn't deserve it's own area.
this looks like a good movie
http://www.peacefulwarriormovie.net
So where is Brother Ross Chatwin
OMG - I just checked out the article above - warren looks emaciated - he doesn't look well at all!!!
any ideas about what he wanted to tell the judge?
Any insider info?
Anon 7:41,
How about Wendell Nielsen?
An interesting page about Wendell Neilsen. Thanks 10.26.
Not being FLDS, I was struck by the comment that Some are reported to be "moving away" from Warren Jeffs. Those of you who live down that way, what does that mean? Is there dissent in CC / Hilldale? Is a split opening up within the FLDS about who the rightful prophet is? What have you all observed?
Given that imprisoning the LDS church's leaders only served (for the most part) to bond the LDS still more strongly, I have to admit to being surprised. Shocked even.
Here's a followup on KSL.
If he did try to committ suicide those months back, he might be on some sort of anti depressant. Perhaps it's interupting his sleep cycle, or it's making his reactions slow.
Anyhow, he doesn't look to be the same man that he was a year ago.
I wonder if he realizes he's not coming back, perhaps he's just not eating.
I know Ross believes he might be realizing the damage that he's done, I'm not so certain about that.
Whatever he wanted to say, it's probably something for himself, and for his benefit, to make himself look better.
I doubt it's anything for the benefit of his followers, I think he stopped thinking about their welfare a long time ago.
Does anyone know which warren faithful were there in the courthouse to see that?
The nevada blog has photos of him nodding off - wow.
Somehow "I told you so!" Just doesn't even come close to how I feel about the whole thing.
I could smell rats right as soon as Uncle Rulon passed away,Everything just started getting real cloudy when they started telling us to not "question authority" I mean to me that sounds like He didn't trust people to believe him when he self proclamied himself as his fathers successor, I never heard his Father or Uncle Roy say that kind of stuff. I didn't want to talk much about it to any of my friends because they were all so loyal to Warren. Somehow
though I still respect the guy. God bless him. Angry bitter words never get us anywhere.
Thankyou, 8:11 and 10:26 for shareing your info with us. :)
I didn't know Warren even HAD a first counselor.
If, in fact, he has seen the error of his ways,it can very well be making him sick. It makes all of us sick just talking about it.
G M
If Warren J. is taken from us,
then a title of MARTYR appears.
I wonder how the Washington Co.
court will feel about the wild
resulting media coverage.
The judge may really wish that
he'd moved the trial northward
to Salt Lake when he had the
chance.
I was there at the hearing. Those whom I could see present were Lamar Johnson, his wife, his son Rulon
Dell Jeffs with his wife also. Fred Lindsey and Lindsey Barlow.
When I hear of more info I will let you know.
You can see who was in court here
I don't believe Jesus of Nazareth would have ever started "Christianity". I don't believe He would have ever started another religion.
Think about how carefully and how patient He was to de-condition His apostles from some of the erroneous ideas the Jewish religion taught, ideas such as "an eye for an eye", sacrificing animals to God (I can't thing of anything more insulting, but I guess that was a step up from sacrificing humans to gods).
In fact His life was very much about patiently, and every so slowly freeing the people from the Jewish religion.
Please don't mis-understand me. I'm not bashing religion. Religion was a necessary stepping stone getting mankind out of the "jungle" so to speak. It was a necessary step in the spiritual evolution of mankind, kind of like the scaffolding on a building was necessary for it's construction... but the scaffolding is not necessary once the building is construction.
If you keep your foot on the religious stepping stone, well, that's where you will stay. To continue your spiritual evolution you've got to move beyond the religious paradigm.
And that I believe is what Jesus of Nazareth was ever so patiently conveying. He was careful not to outright say "Your wrong". Because the reality is they weren't. I mean, it's better to sacrifice an animal then it is to sacrifice a human (which is what mankind did for many years).
It's better to love your brother and hate your enemy then it is to hate your brother and your enemy.
But those are 1 level of truth. Right and wrong... well, that's one level of truth.
But what I believe He was conveying was trying to get the people to transcend where they were at and move on to higher spiritual understanding.
So let me ask you...
What if his apostles would have been strict to religion (Jewish religion at the time)... well, we'd still be preaching and eye for an eye. And where would the world be?
It was because they were able to transcend much of their conditioning that we were able to move out of some of the "dark ages" so to speak.
So I guess what I am saying here is where are you at? Is religion necessary for you at this moment in your spiritual evolution? Or is it holding you back?
To address your other questions...
To free your mind of the shackles Joseph Smith has placed on you you won't be able to take anyones word for it.
Instead find out for yourself.
Go to the temples yourself. See the symbols for yourself.
Get your hands on a temple garment and see the symbols for yourself.
To get the actual temple rituals as they were designed by Joseph Smith won't be easy. You'll have to get a smuggled recording of them. But the corporate church has changed the rituals making them less overt as to what oaths they were actually taking. So you'll have to get an older smuggled recording.
Go back to Missouri if you can. See if you can get the archives of the documents and personal belongs found on Joseph and Hyrmn Smith at the time of their death. Then research the meanings of these things yourself.
Regarding symbols...
Know this... symbols have a deep effect on the unconscious mind. And that effect can be measured. Healers use applied kinesiology to test foods, supplements etc. The same thing can be done to test symbols.
Get together all the symbols you find on the temple. Place them in envelopes so you don't know what they are. Have a healer test them one by one. And know for yourself if these symbols are positive or negative.
But know a few things...
A counterclockwise spiral is not the same as a clockwise spiral. On strengthens. One weakens. A Nazi symbol clockwise actually strengthens. A Nazi symbol counterclockwise actually weakens. The origin of this symbol I believe was from Buddhism. So there are plenty of cases of stolen/bastardized use of symbols.
A pentagram right side up is not the same as a pentagram upside down (as they show up on the temple) like the one you find here...
http://www.harpercollins.com/book/index.aspx?isbn=9780380015399
Now I know the party line is the devil has his counterfeit. And that is what Warren and so many others used to justify the use of these occult symbols on the temples.
But you can test them yourself. So you don't have to take anyone's word for it. You can decide if they are the "counterfeit" or if the use of these symbols on the temples was inspired by God.
The same thing can be done with the Mormon rituals. Test them yourself.
I know it is not easy to come to the realization that something you held oh so dear is a lie an the most cunning of lies based in some of the darkest of things.
But confronting the truth, that is what it will take to free the shackles that Joseph Smith has placed on your mind and has caused so much suffering these last several hundred years.
It takes courage....
Most people will prefer the comfort of their own delusions then the sometimes harsh reality of the truth. In fact they will often kill themselves rather then believe their whole life was based on a lie. This is why you see men, women, intelligent, competent, sane men and women kill themselves. And not only kill themselves, but kill their children as you have seen in so many cults.
... that my folks is very harsh karma to live down.
And that is where the religion was headed. More blood atoning, and maybe even mass suicide... that was going to be the legacy of Warren.
But hopefully that has been derailed.
Hopefully that buys a little more time for my family.
Hopefully they will have the courage to confront the truth. Hopefully their psyches will be strong enough to handle it.
And hopefully I'll see my family free again.
THE TRUTH NEVER SUFFERS FROM HONEST EXAMINATION. Have the courage to examine your own beliefs.
PS. Please do not think I'm here to make anyone wrong. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm here out of love for my family and to perhaps help those who are still caught up in the madness.
Folks sorry for the post here... for some reason I could not (or was not allowed to finish) my post at sharethelight.ca/b2... had to put it somewhere.
What is all that crap?I dont blame them
I would stop you too!
Airey-fairey new-age @ 11.45: "that is what it will take to free the shackles that Joseph Smith has placed on your mind ... Most people will prefer the comfort of their own delusions then the sometimes harsh reality of the truth"
Not that I believe that you have the faintest idea what you're talking about, but I like Joseph Smith's shackles. I'm very comfortable with his shackles. They provide great inspiration, fulfillment, community support and friendship.
And what has your "truth" to offer me? Apart from an ability to talk complete and incomprehensible ass for hours on end?
enjoy the cool-aid tbm
11:45
I am not religious in any way. I just have to state that before I say...
what you wrote is a bunch of mumble jumble. I did not understand one bit where that came from or what you were talking about in anyway. Not sure how long you've been on, but you sound like you may be related to OTS. He could ramble on and on without saying a thing just like you did.
11:45-
I can hear some of what you are saying. I think the part about Jesus is logical. I think you are trying to help people, out of your compassion. But...did you stop to consider that even if it is true to you, it might not nessissarily be true to someone else?
We are all entitled to our own perception of the truth. Pure 100% unadulterated truth is unattainable. We all do the best we can.
Who were you arguing with on the other blog?
Interesting take on symbols. Dr. Masaru Emoto has conducted some fascinating experiments along that line. I wonder how those symbols would come out?
Anon,
Thank you for posting. Because your post was so long, and probably was in response to something not on this blog, it was a tad difficult to follow your stream of conciousness.
However, I will respond to a couple of points you made, which I believe I did understand.
Firstly, Jesus of Nazareth, Christ, the Son of the Living God did come to fulfill his Fathers law, not to abolish it. So, indeed Judaism was Gods design. Although, as the story goes, the pharisees remembered the laws but forgot God's love.
The fulfillment of the law was Christianity, however, not unlike the Old Testament Pharisees modern day Christianity oftentimes falls into the same trap.
TBM, Is Joseph Smith on the same pedestal as Christ to you? I'm just curious, you put yourself in his shackles to him - I was struck by that comment. I suppose in some odd way it reminds me of catholicism, where someone else sits as an intermediary between YOU and God (that figure being Mary).
So perhaps you can explain how LDS works in that way - your comment left me puzzled. I don't think I understand.
Anti-Mormon DVD triggers a strong LDS Church rebuke
Then go here Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith -
Replies and resources addressing the Search for the Truth DVD
This comparison is flawed logic to start with.
I spent considerable time reading this today and from an insider fundamentalist perspective I thought they did pretty good addressing the issues. I don't profess to believe it all but I have no doubt that it is a lot more factual, and better researched material than the dvd.
The hacks, as they point out, never do seem to be willing to hold themselves to the same rigid standards. Allegations have always been good enough for them.
I did not see the dvd, or check their website, (feel free if you must) nor have I any interest in it. (Nor Muggs response either) These arguments are all old as apostasy itself.
If you have a religion... live it. Great!
Is Joseph Smith on the same pedestal as Christ to you ... you put yourself in his shackles to him ... it reminds me of catholicism, where someone else sits as an intermediary between YOU and God
Christ is God, the Savior of the world. Unlike Christ, Joseph Smith has no power to save. Joseph Smith is a prophet, nothing more. Joseph Smith was called only to restore the gospel in its entirety to the earth. While he certainly is greatly respected by Mormons, he holds no status at all beyond that of founder and great teacher.
My comment about "shackles" was in response to 11.45's use of the word.
Are you Mormon TBM? If so, study your history.
ok so it was just a figure of speech and nothing theology then - thanks.
I know a great deal of mormon history. In fact, I'll bet I know substantially more about it than you do, 8.50.
Interesting that comments about DNA evidence keep getting deleted/edited from this blog. Hmmm....
Lets see how long this one stays around.
The rebuttal for the DNA evidence from that website, well, I think they could do better. Either way though the DNA evidence is rather damning to the Joseph Smith story and the Book of Mormon. What is the corporate churches official spin on the DNA evidence?
When I was caught up in the cult Warren had an answer for everything. Everything! Even the most crazy of things that just didn't add up. It seems no matter what the evidence is we only see or believe what validates what we want to believe. Will it ever end?
If you know as much as you claim you would know that Joseph Smith was not merely the founder of the Church and a great teacher but also the third member of the Godhead.
Grrrr....! I have tried three times to post on this and I accidentally erased my epistle EVERY time. Sigh.
Basically, I do not agree with Anon. that the signs and symbols and rituals used in LDS which can be interprited differently by other cultures (I'll use Anon.'s own example of the Nazi sign and the Buddaists use of the same sign); and because Joseph Smith was once a Free Mason, (We allready discussed the similarities of the rituals on another thread, and there were hardly any) proves anything.
All it proves is different views on the same symbols, not a 'secret' conspiracy. Evey religion has it's crooked 'laymen'. That does not prove the religion is really somethng other than what it claims to be.
TBM- I recomend reading the debate on this on the Share the light blog, if you haven't allready. I think it's in the third post down, the last ten comments or so, and Anon is agruing with Jade Butterfly.
BTW- Anon is continuing this debat on two blogs. That is brave.
bbgae, I think I found the blog, but it's really way too tedious to search for specific posts. So anon, you're going to have to explain. Go on, surprise me. How was Joseph Smith the third member of the godhead?
I seriously doubt ANYONE is going to believe anything about that tape admitting Warrens guilt! They are too scared that they will be in the wrong and that they will go to hell if they do. They all will just say "Its a test". But what is funny is that i've heard that Warren said he wouldnt be caught. It really makes me sad because he has put people that I care about that live in C.C. in a pickle.
Anonymous,You have described how the tapes will be recieved exactly.
I'm sure they wont look at them. They will just throw them away, if they are even given out for them to look at.
TBM-
Forgive me for sending you on a goose chase :). The just of the argument from what I gathered, Anon was saying her/his father had been mormon and had 'slipped' and told her something that had happened in the temple. She was also saying if a person took the symbols from the temple and other LDS rites before a psychic, she would tell you they were signs of darkness, or something like that. (THIS IS JUST WHAT I GOT OUT OF WHAT I READ.)
bbgae, I don't think you're getting the story straight. I didn't see any mention of a psychic.
ok. Thanx. I will yield. : )
I'm going to join Centennial park - you've confinced me!
convinced
I felt like it was a fitting post for the day.
April 1
Always have thought you would make an easy convert atar-i.
I just hope we all find the real truth someday, every last one of us.
So we can clear up this really f**cked up situation
Well, here is your first clue for truth.
Uncle Rulon is dead. He is not in the next room. He is dead. He did not live for another 320 years.
Rulon had a stroke and Warren manipulated him, probably with the help of other liars in the group. Sound familiar to students of Alta Academy. Remember the sermon about Joseph Musser stoke and Rulon Allred. I think Warren should revisit that speech. He has done what he accused Rulon Allred of doing.
Warren is not a prophet. And someday you will hear him admit it from sea to shining sea and CNN.
And you are. ? But please don't let it go to your head if you guessed right.
Easy convert? I'll let you in on a little secret about myself. While level headed and fair - I'm extremely stubborn. While changing my opinions about certain things, my pivot point, or center has ALWAYS been the same. It's my root, my water, my fuel. Changing that, would kill the tree, and thus, just would never happen.
As a youngster because of an injury I had difficulty with my memory for a few years. If I couldn't figure something out, it was usually because I just wasn't doing it the right way.
When other people tried and couldn't accomplish it, they assumed it never could be done - BUT I NEVER felt that way, and tried, and reworked and tried - until I literally MADE IT HAPPEN.
Telling me No is like styling your hair in a blizzard - completely and utterly useless. There is always a way. I can find anything, I can get anything - it's just a matter of time, tenacity and passion (how badly do I want it?)
So no, I'd never switch unless I was going undercover,
There is always a way. I can find anything, I can get anything - it's just a matter of time, tenacity and passion (how badly do I want it?)
atar-i... with that understanding,you have no need of any man made religion.
unca-dontneednodeciples-duff
anon 8:08 grow up that is uncalled for
tbm 4:26,we were actually taught that Joseph Smith holds the office of the Holy ghost, the third member of the Godhead. this was taught in a Sunday night theology class at the Colorado city academy,and in "the Jr. school of the Prophets" a first Saturday of the month class for some of us "more worthy" elders. (I misplaced my worthynes certificate before the class was discontinued,and stopped going.)
uncaduff.
Atar-
I love the example of styling your hair in a blizzard. It's perfect.
I think what Anon should have meant was.... you are just so freaking awesome, she/he would LOVE to have you on their side. (Although it would take a miracle to get you there.)
yo 4:26, 10:32 speaks the truth YOU better believe it!
undie how did you know I cook without recipes - you sly fox!
atar (from my phone)
Atar- techno geek!
I think it is awesome that you will keep up when you are away from the computer. Wish I was as savvy. :)
uncaduff: we were actually taught that Joseph Smith holds the office of the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead
If so, that's a purely FLDS thing. But I still find it surprising. Are you certain you didn't misunderstand? Joseph Smith made it clear in "Lectures on Faith" that he considered himself an entirely separate entity from the Holy Ghost.
In any case, the Holy Ghost is not an office. It's a god, a personage. Joseph Smith could no more be the Holy Ghost than he could be me.
And 8.08, chill out! Are you serving a mission, or something? So what if no-one believes you? How is that your problem?
Remember what Joseph Smith taught in D&C 121: "power or influence can or ought to be maintained ... only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— "
And I would add, "Without bad temper, rudeness or insolence"
tbm, your right of course,this isn't orthodox LDS doctrine. Ive tried to remember how they arrived at the idea,but I cant pin it down. as I remember, it came from an obscure statement from one of the early leaders, in one of the publications,like journal of discourse, times & seasons, ect.
and no , I don't believe this doctrine.
uncaduff.
fttc - I swore I would never do that, but I truly was waiting, by myself. I see people on these little gadgets fingers popping away for ages ignoring everyone about them - it looks odd.
I agree with the oddity. It takes me several minutes to enter a phone number and name for memory on my phone. I don't know how anyone can carry on a conversation with those keypads.
don't dis the text messages. I like them. I can't access the blog from my phone, but all I would have to do, was ask my techno geek hubby to show me and then....Bwahhaahhahh (evil laugh).
And let me guess 4:01 and 8:13 are mormon huh, thats weird Oh just remember the mormon church
gave up the way they were taught so Utah could claim statehood!
And by the way people like you don't need to believe me,
cause you guys have been lost for the past 100 years! haha
NO, I'm thrilled to be able to send a message to my kids, but I miss the small conversations that used to happen when people were waiting in a room without their phones.
I do love my Treo, I can use all my Palm software on it, and I don't have to carry so many gadgets around - it's my Palm, iPod, and phone all combined.
Apropos to the title of this thread, here's another story in the SL Trib today.
So, what exactally does this mean? Does it mean the evidence found in Warren's vehicle at the time of his arrest is sealed and will not be allowed to be used in court, or does it mean info about Warren himself is sealed?
My guess? The medical and psychological filings mentioned in the story are what's sealed... judging from what I read in the story.
I think there's been no decision yet as to whether the evidence found in his vehicle - any or all of it - will be admissible in court. (I could be wrong...)
I believe that things surrounding Warren are about to become "Unsealed"
bbgae, I have noticed that for all your frustrations with Grouchy Anon, he/she sure did influence your blogging style nicely! I noticed that you adopted the wide mouth grin :D and the evil laugh! So while GA may have been somewhat frustrating to you, it seems the interactions were not a TOTAL wash! In fact, I think your blogging protocol shows very quick progress! The post from Atar_i shows you what we learn from even the most irritating of people!
Just an observer
BB, I can walk down to the courthouse anytime I want and ask for a transcript of anything I want, the most intimate details of a confession etc. In fact - I can find much of that information online, and request e-files of cases that interest me for a small fee.
When something is sealed it means that the judge has a compelling reason to keep the intimate details from the public view, while the court has full access to them.
I did not read the article, more than just the first paragraph or so, but I think that's probably what it's referring to. I'm downtown today, so I won't be on - 'keep sweet' : D
Thanx, Atar, for explaining. Have fun downtown today. :D BTW- Do you know my mouse pad is still a 'keep sweet' mouse pad? LOL
Observer-
You are completely right. And Atar was right. Fighting with Grouchy Anon was not all bad. I did get the wide mouth grin from him/her, but the evil laugh is something we share in common. It was there all along, just waiting for the right oppertunity to break out. I think the thing with GA and me is: our personalities clash. We unintentionally ruffle each other's feathers with only a few words, and the more we try, the worse it gets. But, that's ok. We both learned, I think. And I am not going to complain any more about it. At least we share the evil laugh, and I got to borrow the grin.... :D
Hey, now that was cute! I really mean it! =D
Grouchy Anon
Thanks, Grouchy anon. I mean it too. :D
There will be a hearing in St. George on April 23rd to decide whether or not the items found with Warren in the Red Cadillac SUV on August 28, 2006 will be admissable evidence. Originally, Warren's actual trial was to start on this date, but now it will be the evidence hearing instead. No feralfem, you are NOT wrong.
Thanks, 11:47. :)
11:47,
Thank you... I sure don't like being wrong. ;-)
There is a BIG difference between being WRONG and being INCORRECT! (IMHO)
Touché ;-)
Nonny 11:47....
Are you rubbing in the
"red"
"caadillac"
"SUV"
thing a bit muchish?
Dear Are you rubbing in the
"red" "caadillac" "SUV"
thing a bit muchish?
4/06/2007 6:45 PM
Rubbing Rubbing,
Well I am not Nonny, but IT WAS A RED CADILLAC SUV. Does the truth sting a bit.
And did you see the VERY BRIGHT HOT PINK RIBBON IN NAOMI'S HAIR.
AND NEWS FLASH warren is not a prophet, but he was a fugitive, liar and a thief.
Bad Nonny
Ok. Maybe I missed the meeting where it was announced, but I don't remember anything forbidden about driving or riding in red vehicles.
As far as I can remember, that was just something a few invididual families did on their own. And, I know from personal expierence the 'red' thing was taken to different extremes by different families. In one family I knew of the father burned all his wives' and daughters'red, maroon, and pink clothing, and in a family connected to Jeffs', a daughter wore a white dress with teeny, tiny red- yes, RED- flowers on it.
Am I the only person who thinks that it was a tad ... EXTRAVAGANT that Warren was traveling around in a Cadillac? I mean, what's wrong with a new Ford Explorer or a Toyota 4 Runner? There are faithful followers who are starving trying to make ends meet and Warren rides around in a TOP OF THE LINE SUV !!!!!
It's not like he spent HIS money buying this vehicle. Or, does he draw a salary as prophet, seer and revelator?
11:38-
:) No, you aren't the only one who thinks it was extravagant. I do, too. I also have issues with the way Warren and Naomi were dressed at the time of the arrest and with the theme park tickets.
But, it's done and over and he's in jail now.
And...no, I don't think those reasons listed above are against the law and just cause for arrest. But... unlawful flight IS.
I really think everything would have been SO much easier on Warren if he had just cooperated in the first place. Heck, the opinion of the people here (which he was complaining about and the reason he claimed the court case should be moved) might even be a little more favorable if he had not been a fugitive.
tsk...tsk...tsk (head shake) :)
Had theme park tickets? thats a new one and very interesting i might add, thanx bbgae
Warren was reliving the old TV commercials "I'm going to Disneyland"
Can't you just picture him in his mouse ears and kissing Goofy!
LOL! :D That was great, Anon 12:05!
How does anyone on here even know that whats been going on is the truth
Personally I think All that stuff on the news is just a load of B.S. They
are just trying to turn Warren's people on him.
Anon 2:23-
Nobody knows for sure what the truth is, except maybe Warren, himself.
I used to feel the same way about the media when I was still in. But even then I had to admit they got some things right, even if I did not argee with or believe the rest. Remember, the news reporters are paid to report FACTS, not opinions (except on fox).
Been out of town on extended travel for a few weeks, looks like there's been a lot going on.
12:05 warren has been effin' goofy for a long time, he
belongs in fantasy land. Disney's is as good as any!
warren's lawyers have been arguing that the documents found in the SUV (it may have even been a red, cadillac, SUV) are priveleged communication between a prophet and his flock. If warren does an end run around them and tells the judge that he is not really a prophet, it takes away their argument.
And if he loses the judgement on the documents, they can always file for a time extension becasue of his degraded health. I can hear it now...'Your Honor, you can see how this whole process has affected the defendent, his condition has deteriorated to the point where he doesn't believe he is a prophet any more. We've got to have more time to allow the defendent to heal properly and accept the notion that he is a prophet'.
His lawyers will try very hard to squash this. It doesn't matter what is written down by warren, if its not an affidavit then its just a story or a novel. But warren doesn't listen to his lawyers advice very well. When Rod Parker announced he was no longer warren's legal council a few years ago, he said something like warren did not agree with the legal direction he was recommending. I took that to mean Parker recommended he defend himself but warren wanted to run.
LTG
Excellent points LTG. Thanks for the reminder about Rod Parker. I remember thinking the same thing when Parker quit him. It would not be out of character for warren to do the same thing to his new attorneys.
Your impersonation of the defense was a killer! I can see it happening though.
any body got any valid info on the rumor that Wendel is involved in a power struggle with one of warren's brothers,over who's gonna be boss?
uncaduff.
Once again, LTG, I marvel at your insight, and find I have to agree with you. :)
Fttc-
HI!:) Where You been hidin' the past two weeks? I'm glad you're back. I was beginning to wonder if I had offended you or made you think just a little too much....
Interesting rumor, Uncaduff.....
I wish I could give you that compliment but no, I didn't blow a fuse and neither am I offended. I have been reading the comments occasionally but have not had any time to post. Google has made it so time comsuming to log in every time that even when I wanted to comment I didn't have the time. There have been some interesting points made. Thanks everyone!
FTTC-
I'm glad you're ok. Thank you for answering. :)
a new twist on the case:
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2007/apr/19/jeffs-case-papers-wanted---sealed-documents-church/
Thanx, for the info. Anon. 12:34. I checked it out, and it was interesting.
Thanks for posting the article, Anon. Just curious, are you in the San Angelo area?
Does anyone on here know where Uncle Allen Steed is living or even Merril steed for that matter?
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