I did not think I would be calling on Flora Jessop to substantiate her claims. It's the last thing I expected. I assumed all those who claimed she is a liar, and demonized her must be feeling the sting of her truly spoken words.
That is why I never expected to feel this way. 'She's a previous victim, she knows the community, she's out now - and she's telling all the secrets'. Her credibility was bullet proof for me - UNTIL NOW.
To understand what I am talking about listen to the audio file below from a recent 2006 ex-mormon conference. Flora's schpeel is about half way through. She makes scurrilous allegations about the Mohave County Investigator, his living situation, and his professional integrity.
Linda Walker and Flora Jessop: "The Church, Child Abuse and the Law: Case Studies of Civil Complaints".
Flora is considered by many an expert in the polygamous area, and thus her reputation and the her credibility of her testimony is paramount. Perhaps this expertise has gone unchecked for so long, with only the FLDS crying foul that she plays loose and free with reality in order to garner a positive response for her mission. Perhaps she just has bad information.
If you want to be seen as a credible reporter of facts, the truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity and public accountability of the facts you report needs to be a standard. Without that, there is no credibility.
In my opinion, Floras credibility with those NOT associated with the FLDS is in jeopardy. I have emailed Jay Beswick, and on several board asked for Flora to either substantiate or apologize for the information she presented at that meeting.
THUS FAR, no response.
I will assume - if no response comes that Flora cannot substantiate those allegations, but refuses to apologize.
ANY RESPONSE is better than none. I will find myself questioning every word from her lips should she not address this issue. I'm rather disillusioned at this point anyhow - and I doubt I'm the only one.
98 comments:
oAtar, I'm not FLDS, but have had close ties all my life.
It's about time someone other than FLDS and those who know the truth figured her out! Thanks!
I'm not Flds either and I laugh at all of you gullible people,beliving this crazy lady.How can you consider this person credible or professional??A victom?Think of it.She became dissatisfied with her faith so she left....so now she has nothing good to say about it.Doesn't make her credible or professional.It makes her an angry old lady that wants to be viewed as a victom,and you have all been making her happy by swallowing her story.Now she needs more attention cuz the last round felt so good.She has to attack someone else.I know Catholics,Mormons,etc that have turned their backs on their religions that do the same thing.Bad mouth their religion culture etc.But there is no way I would consider them professional or credible.We all experiance life differently.No matter what religion we are in we see things the way we see them, we can't speak for an entire religion.Can we?Two kids can be brought up in the same home same parents same rules same beliefs and have two totally differen't storys of their lives.To one life sucked to the other life was great.So one can't speak for an entire family or an entire religion.
If we follwed that, and never gave any credit to whistleblowers that would be an equally nonsensical reaction in the opposite direction.
Because someone is disgruntled doesn't mean they are right - but it doesn't make them wrong either.
There can be substantial truth, or substantial lies. Which is why accurate, objective data is paramount, and why allegations, on their own CANNOT be the hallmark of truth.
I do not discount Flora's personal testimony, it is, what it is. It does not sound that different than most other testimonies of those leaving FLDS, it's consistent with both what the faithful state is how they do things as well. Marriage young, marriage to a man who is already married, marriage to a relative, marriage on short notice, marriage is expected, it's hard to leave, the pressure is to stay.
However, all the rest, the subsequent data, deaths, misconduct, theft, etc etc - information which might have some basis in fact/truth/reality needs not only subjective information (personal testimony) but objective data (checks, photographs, receipts registers) etc as well.
Which - is why I am calling for Flora to provide objective data. Her testimony is not first hand, and her allegations are uncharacteristic and inflammatory. The Mohave County investigator has denied them.
Does that make everything Flora has every said a lie? (if her allegations are baseless)
Not necessarily, but I'll wonder what was truth and what wasn't. I won't be able to trust the accuracy of her information - or know if it has ANY basis in reality.
The Eldorado Success website is reporting the death of a young child this morning at the YFZ Ranch. Wait and see what Flora does with this one.
www.myeldorado.net
Flora Jessop:
I firmly second atar_i's assessment of the situation. If indeed you (Flora Jessop) can produce proof as to these claims you should in no way fail to set the record straight. If you can prove your accusations then let the truth speak for itself. If you can't, apologies are in order.
Readers of this blog know that I am not now nor have ever been an apologist for FLDS. I am, however, strongly in favor of the fair presentation of evidence and equally fair rebuttal.
Flora, you have been challenged. This time not by one of those whom you oppose, but individuals who support your cause. Proof and justification of your pronouncements will go greatly to support your case. If you fail to respond then expect your credibility to suffer. The 'ball' is now in your court. What will you do to make things right? In other words the time has come to put up or shut up.
You should discount Flora's personal testimony with the same reservation as well, she has never told the truth about that either.
UPDATE - Flora has stated to me (via email)that she believes the information that she has to be true, and will get on the board in response to the questions that have been raised regarding her comments regarding Gary Engels.
So....Atari...if you were wrong about her, maybe you could consider that quite possibly you are wrong about other things you have been so VERY JUDGEMENTAL about, huh?? But I do admire your admitting that you were wrong publicly. That does show that you are really looking for true justice. I hope you don't fall for her next bid for attention.
Big deal. Saying she believes it to be true is just another damn big lie. You only provide her another outlet to retell and embellish. End of the day, her stories don't check out. LE has figured that out, so now she has to lie about them too.
Flora has been challenged and answered tentativly. You FLDS don't want her message read or the message of anyone else who would dare to expose your dirty little operation. The jury is still out and FLDS has not yet been cleared of the charges. Warren Jeffs is still in Jail, without bond, for good reason. He can't be trusted to show up in court or to answer charges brought by persons with a reputation much more sterling than his has proven to be.
You love a liar, a false prophet and a charltan. Too much evidence has been revealed for Jeffs to be able to claim innocence. For instance, the sodomizing of his nephew at Alta academy; Jeffs, thinking himself above the law, did not show up for trial, even to defend his indefensable position in the case and was thus adjudicated guilty by default and restitution ordered.
FLDS, don't attempt to look under the edge of other folks carpet in an effort to find dirt. You have plenty of your own which should require all your attention.
"Proving" innocence by showing other's guilt is not a good way to clear your name, but Mormonism has used that tactic from day one. The approach is attacking Flora rather than proving the charges false, although I don't believe much of what Flora has to say myself.
As far as Gary living with a priesthood member. Could it be that he has been caught visiting privately with a clost doubter a few times? Or an XFLDS that Flora thinks is still FLDS (who knows--maybe he was caught visiting with me)? The charges of keep you mouth shut. Could it be that Gary doesn't want a media circus? Could it be that a stronger case could be made against Warren if these women keep quiet except to those that need to know? As far as losing an infant...Well, maybe some parents want some privacy in dealign from their loss. I haven't listened yet to the rest of Flora's speech.
I know perhaps others do not want to hear Flora explain her remarks because you've heard it all before - but I haven't.
I think she will be hard pressed to rationalize the scurrilous remarks she made against Gary Engels professional ethics.
To make such accusations in a public forum means that the objective data (evidence) must be above reproach. It can't be third party, it can't be guess work - it must be strong and compelling objective information.
I sincerely doubt such information exists.
Which, leads me to question all information given by her with equal zeal regarding other individuals.
Which is what makes her zealous probably erroneous information so damning to the cause she has so devoted her life to. You cannot misrepresent reality to increase the furtherance of your own goals - it BACKFIRES.
A part of me wants Flora to tell me she had really bad information, or she has some rationale for the accusations she made. Why? Because I don't want little girls to get married before they reach the age of majority. Her downfall HURTS the cause I believe it.
I'm a realist, and I do want Floras response - but I don't think it will be enough to stop the hemmorage her reputation is suffering at this point.
And yes, I agree - I might be wrong about a great many other things.
Flora Jessop was probably abused as a child either by her brother or her father. Both of whom were excommunicated from the FLDS church and lost their families. She moved in with Uncle Fred, whom her mother remarried. In 1986 she ran away, and then returned again, refusing CPS services (as per Spectrum article by Loren Webb) She was never mistreated by Fred Jessop; he only wanted to help her. Flora left in 1987, I do not blame her one bit for being angry for what happened to her as a child, but she found identity and notoriety by blaming the church for her pain (I dont blame her, but she is wrong). In 2001 when Ruby left the church freely, and then decided she wanted to go back, it infuriated Flora. She wanted to force Ruby to leave. She called CPS to intervene only after Ruby went home. CPS interviewed Ruby and her mother, and found no reason to proceed.
Atari read this slowly, and try to understand it:
A-Young person (Lost boy, teenage girl) is rebellious to their parents, and gets in trouble. (Blames local police for catching them)
B-FLDS Parents love their children as much as you love yours. And respects their free agency.
C-Young person runs to anti-FLDS crusaders who, with the press, tell the young person what to say to not have to go back to their "abusive" (rule making) parents. (Lies including inevitable forced marriage, blood atonement, and parental abandonment)
D-The government is caught in the middle. With the anti-FLDS activist (including some government officials) and the press on one side; and the CPS, the juvenile courts, and the parents on the other.
Ruby is where she wants to be, Caroline is where she wants to be; and neither Flora nor Jay had anything to do with them except to make money off of the press generated.
When Flora and the camera crews kidnapped the two Fawns, Bob Curran quit working with Flora because he knew they could be charged with kidnapping. They weren’t because of tremendous anti-FLDS public opinion. The Fawns ended up where their parents were going to let them go anyway, but Fawn Holm didn’t find any more freedom in her brother’s home than in her father’s home, so she ran away from there too.
CTR
Atar
Your last post strengthens the opinion that I have had of you from the start. I think you really are after the truth. I don't always agree with your posts but they are always very well put. You do admit when you are wrong and you keep others on their toes. I appreciate you asking Flora to prove her claims and would like to hear her out.
CTR
I hope this doesn't surprise you, but even many of the X's consider Flora off her rocker, including myself.
I am ignoring the post above which has the putrid stench of pedophilia.
ots
Go get a life. We all are aware of your continuing rant about the sin filled world. We are all tired of hearing your constant harping that no one except you and yours are bound for a celestial world, that little girls become capable of reproduction as young as age eight etc. That everyone outside your little world is adulterous, permistious, lusting, fornicating, having abortions and living is sin. Your presumption is a bald faced LIE. Do isolated incidents deserve full blown condemnation of the whole? I don't approve of such behavior nor do I engage in such. Among my associates through life, such behavior has not been the norm, but the exception and is not endorsed as just or right. Judgement is not ours, it is THE LORD'S.
When you point your index finger at anyone's sin remember, if you are not somehow manually handicaped, three fingers point back at you. When you get the 6X6 beam from your own eye then go looking into your neighbor's eye to assist in removing the dust mote that might be there. When you have achieved Christ's perfection then you can run for the office of judge. Of course you never will be able to fill that chair because it has an eternal occupant and is located at the Right Hand of GOD. Your crowd may vote en mass for your election but GOD has the veto power, not you.
I have never in my many years on this earth met an eight year old girl, though she may have developed the ability to menstruate, who is mentally, physically or psychologically mature enough to assume the role of being a competent mother to an infant. And, if that's not bad enough, you would have her pregnant and delivering at nine, again at ten, again at eleven, again at twelve, at thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty etc. etc. etc. etc.
If your model was the norm a female would bear twenty-one children before having attained her thirtieth birthday. If she or the husband had genetic capabilities of multiple birth pregnancies the numbers could be much greater.
Now I ask you a question. How could a girl ever hope to attain a goal she might desire in life if her every moment was filled either becoming pregnant, giving birth and mothering a continually expanding family who need the care and love of a mother, to prepare meals, to clean house, to nurse the sick, to nurture those who have had childhood mishaps and need her immediate attention and perform the ten thousand other tasks demanded of a wife and mother? At age eight she is not even mature enough to judge her options. What in the universe would be harmed if she was at least ten years older, eighteen at the minimum. She could still bear ten to fifteen children before she lost her ability to have children. To add to that, at eighteen she is much better prepared, in every way to begin bearing children.
If it weren't for the horny priesthood desiring fresh meat on a regular basis this idiotic farce could be brought to some kind of intelligent end. But, because you choose to follow the undisputable word of a sodomist, jailed, awaiting trial as accessory to rape, GOD help those children, you won't and we can't, thanks to the ACLU.
ots, are you, personally, the parent of a single child? If your example were to be followed, ;your female child could became a mother at nine could easily become a grandmother by the age of seventeen. The experience of childbirth alone may be more than enough to end her innocent life. Don't your care?
If she is not the favored wife, or has some sort of pull with the prophet because of him being her kin, what kind of help can she expect from her husband in developing a real, whole, family. She has no hope. In effect she is no more than a brood sow. Her total value is determined by how many children she can deliver alive and well. And then she's supposed to continue this fiasco in life after life, world after world, even after she has attained the highest heaven.
With this completely irrational mind set, no wonder so many of the women, and their children's financial care has had to be assumed by the taxpayers of the United States. How can a man have three or four such families and support them?
If you have no children, SHUT UP! You have no say, even in your own perverted lifestyle of having any effect upon the life of any female, in this world or any other.
Flora, in all probability, like you, isn't perfect. She's been at the forefront of an effort to help prevent young women from having experiencing her own fate. I support her in this. I do hope that she will fess up and straighten the record if she has spoken amiss. Her cause is suffering because of her poor judgement.
Jesus will forgive her, or you street, if you will but confess your sin to HIM, acknowledge HIM as LORD and SAVIOR. If HIS TRUTH is living in you, you too will see the foolishness and heartbreak resulting from your insistance that under-aged marriage is acceptable.
If you go to the Nevada Polygamy Blog Jax has stated that Flora states Gary stays with a member who is no longer part of the FLDS.
She also states (per the NV blog report) that he stays in a room there when he spends the night in town.
She continues to state that he openly dissuades women from coming out against abuses.
In conclusion, if that is her position, I believe she purposefully and intentionally led people to believe that Gary was living with someone currently in good standing with the FLDS (someone in the 'priesthood').
She does not offer any information (other than her word) about her second allegation regarding Mr. Engels dissuading women from reporting abuses.
However, based on the truthfulness of the first statement, I find the second statement highly suspect, and in all probability as truthful as the first allegation she made (in other words - NOT VERY).
I'm really dissappointed.
No one in any of the anti-polygamy groups seems terribly fussed by this sort of conduct.
I am left to assume that it is not something terribly new or suprising to them.
Perhaps they feel the 'ends justify the means'. I am not of that sentiment.
I think the truthfulness of misconduct can stand on it's own merits (or lack therof) and need not be augmented by those who would race in to stomp out it's injustice.
I think, if any progress is going to me made - it will NOT be made by those whose words inflame the senses, but only provide smoke and no real fire.
Again, I'm dissappointed, not just in Flora, but in those whom I believed stood for something more than that sort of spotlight hugging hype.
Ya, Street! How would you like it if Luann were given to some old fart before she was 18? Or even after? I really don't think you would be able to handle it. I think you would get a real grasp of what is happening. I think you would be singing a different tune!
Chew on that for a bit!
Why are OTS and Muggsyy and their sickness allowed on here and you cut my posts out.At 14 I feel I am more mature than a lot of you squabbling adults.But then who knows you do sound like a bunch of kids.Why don't you all get out and help someone?
You sound angry 14 yr old - can you tell us about yourself?
Since I am being dragged into this, I can only say so much. I haven't yet seen or heard this broadcast or story, I have been busy with a civil rights case in California City, CA. unrelated to polygamy.
I can only guess by what has been implied, whom Flora thinks Gary is to close to. This person which I will not name for legal reasons was trusted to far, another poster here provided a audio cassette to Gary of a recorded phone call I had made in the year 2000 implicating this 3rd party. A corrective judgement was made and Gary is well aware of whom I speak. The cassette recording was not intended to be copied and given to the investigator, but I am aware he took possession of it. Cryptic maybe, but this forum is no place for second guessing on going investigations.
The trip to Colorado City in September by Flora, Buster Johnson and Arizona Assemblyman Lujan resulted in bad feeling between the investigator and the two Arizona officials, it resulted in a formal complaint to Attorney General Terry Goddard. I wasn't there, I know of the conflict, but not of the details of what occured. Again, that need not be gossip in such a forum as this and its up to Terry Goddard to determine it as a credible complaint. I am sure Flora would lean toward the feelings of the two public officials that accompanied her on that trip.
As for the statements about Ruby, that is how and where I met Flora. We were both trying to rescue Ruby, unaware of each other. I recorded my calls with Flora's brother who had Ruby for the time she was out. With Chloe Rohbock as well, since Ruby and her friend stopped there first after leaving Quail lake en route to Fred Jessops house. I have Steve Stovall on record as the Washington County Deputy Sheriff who followed up on the later investigation of Ruby and her bid to flee. Clearly pligchild knows squat about what occured with Ruby.
Utah handled the Ruby case and it was Gene Ashdown the head of DFS in St. George that we met with, we used a micro cassette on the table and Les Zitting was there at that meeting and that was the first day I met Flora. I have all of these recordings, so I am clear on those issues I speak.
I will read or listen to this speech or whatever it was and call Flora to find out what this is all about. There is however someone in Colorado city that is worth watching. Without getting into that audio that was sent to Gary from a 2000 phone interview, think of the man who moved 140 asbestos latent buildings which he purchased from George Air Force Base out of Victorville, CA. to be reconstructed in Colorado City. The units with the bank leins on them. This is likely the man Flora is concerned about and I haven't seen this text that you all speak of. But I do have pictures of the units being transported, copies of the leins for which I speak and the dialog with the Arizona Attorney General's staff for the report they sent to the Rocky Mountain Region of the EPA.
Some of you could certainly figure out of whom I speak, but again who here is tied to law enforcement and needs to know such details?
Would it be good judgement for Flora to tell you of things I don't even speak of? Not really, but most activist operate independent of each other. I'll take a look or listen, but in the same way I am cryptic here, debating law enforcement issues that are pending investigation, simply have no place in a gossip forum. I don't think I even need to read what she said to know who she is likely talking about and that alone should be the clue you need.
MIB, I appreciate your attempt to address something that isn't even on your plate. I'm not certain how much of what you stated, relates to my concerns, but some of the issues you addressed certainly did.
And, as you said, if there is an ongoing investigation, then it WOULD HAVE BEEN BEST if they had been left quiet. I was NOT the one who brought it into the spotlight - it was FLORA.
No explanation - and apparently, no explanation forthcoming - just accusations and allegations which cannot be confirmed.
Perhaps she should be more tight lipped about such things. It's like bait and switch.
Thanks for actually responding - even though this was not your bailiwick.
As I think more, it would have been accurate - and definately more effective for her to make a statement which was not only TRUE, but objective - stating only what is indeed reality.
A more damning statement would have been
(if there is an actual official investigation)
"The Mohave County Investigator is currently under investigation by the Attorney Generals office for potential conduct violations with regard to the FLDS"
(if there is no official investigation - only a complaint officially filed)
"The Attorney General has received an official complaint regarding the Mohave County Investigators possible conduct violations with regard to his investigation of the FLDS"
If a complaint was filed either one of those would have raised my eyebrows and made me question GARY, and what he was up to - I would have asked questions - wondered what the complaints were etc.
Making the sort of accusations that were made seems amatuerish - no matter how you slice it.
If her goal was indeed to cast some doubt on Gary - she didn't suceed (so what was the point?). Her accusations could be utterly false and his character would have been MORE DAMAGED had she just stuck to the objective facts.
The second issue - Are we talking about Ruby (like 5 years ago Ruby Jessop) and him encouraging her to keep quiet? Why are we hearing about this now - why now, and not 5 years ago? (something smells hinky)
Lastly, let ME just state that I dont' know a lot about FLORA's investigation - but from what I've HEARD from her, and others - I have stated what I BELIEVE to be true.
Now, I could be totally wrong - in fact, I might very well be. Because I don't know Flora's secret little investigations.
Can't we apply that same criteria to her. Does she know EVERYTHING that the County/State is doing. Isn't she just hearing a portion - and doing the same thing to them?
Might she NOT be aware of their secret operations they can't tell her about?
I just hate to see everyone going off all half-cocked. You've dedicated huge portions of your life to affecting change - so don't screw it up. Do it smart, and if you don't know what that is - hire someone who does. More inertia towards the target doesn't help if you keep tripping and falling and can't build up enough momentum.
.02
Street:
I'll simplify this question AGAIN.
ARE YOU A HUSBAND AND A FATHER?
If neither, you have no advise to offer that's worth a plug nickel.
Well, I finally watched Big Love - has anyone else? I'm almost through the whole season. We had to take the DVD's to our room because it gets a little rated R every once in awhile.
I'm not certain what I expected - everyone said it was so rosy a portrait of polygamy - yikes - that was rosy?
You despise Nikki, adore Marjeen, feel sorry for Barb, wonder what Bill was thinking, and those poor teens.
I'm totally enjoying it - except when Bill goes all spiritual - and I just groan.
They seem to use information and terminology from the FLDS that they think will work to flush out the details, but I don't think how they put them together would be seen as accurate (and is not meant to be so from what I can tell).
It's interesting though. UEB instead of UEP, Roman instead of Rulon, Juniper Creek instead of Short Creek - and stuff like that.
The LDS missionaries even come along and shake the dust from their feet, and scrawl Nikki's address down (as they let her know she'll have to repent from polygamy if she wants to be in the celestial kingdom) - I'll have to watch them the next time they leave my house.
I'm actually looking forward to the next time those suited fellows stop by. I haven't had one (I mean two) in years.
Flora originally gained visibility from speaking out about her sister Ruby's situation. The reason she gained credibility is because Ruby's story really did happen.
Ruby really was married at around 14 to her "step brother" (his mother married Fred Jessop, too), but her age wasn't the only problem. Ruby was a friend/"step sister" to her appointed husband's little sisters who had told Ruby about how they had been molested by their older brother, so Ruby was finding it very difficult to be happy with this arrangement. She went to her sister Flora for help, but soon returned home to C.C. When Flora went to the legal authorities, Ruby and her mom took a long vacation in Canada and used fake names so that word about where they were wouldn't spread among churchmembers so fast. Their stay in Canada was cut short by a court order that required Ruby to be physically present for questioning by investigators in Washington County, Utah. Immediately before Ruby and her escorts went to St. George for the interrogation, they had an appointement with Warren Jeffs. He directed Ruby to deny that she had been married and to tell the investigators nothing. Ruby followed his directions explicitly. To put it the way she related it to me, "They (the investigators) knew I was lying, but they couldn't do anything about it." The end result of their mis-managed investigation was a great big nothing. Flora wasn't happy with this; after all, Ruby was not even questioned alone.
But this wasn't the end of Ruby's predicament. She was in a marriage that she didn't want to be in, and she was in the middle of a series of meetings with Warren in which she was asking for a release. Warren eventually gave her an ultimatum telling her that if she left her "Priesthood" husband, she would have no chance at salvation. Ruby's decision? She stayed with her appointed husband and remained a faithful follower of Warren; and while Flora was saying Ruby had disappeared, Ruby was living in a tiny trailor house in the trailor park in C.C. This is why you will hear people say, "Ruby is where she wants to be."
Nobody is keeping her locked up, nobody ever did. However, you wouldn't be wrong to say that Ruby was manipulated by her family and religious leaders; she was given the choice between hell and being a piece of property and she chose the latter.
Now, back to Flora and her statements. I would like to ask her to qualify another one of her comments. Specifically, I would like her to give clarity to her statement that holding a baby's head under water to get it to stop crying is a method of discipline used by FLDS. I am FLDS, and I have never seen or heard of such abuse. Flora should rightfully attribute such behavior to the person(s) who did it and not to an entire city.
MIB you are as cryptic as a sidewinder-rattlesnake.
Does Flora have a goal in mind?
She seems to know a little and how to dramatize well. (I guess we all do) but she has cried "wolf" too many times to have credibility.
There are reasons for her cries but I doubt they are to help anyone... but herself. They make no sense.
Anonymous 10/29/2006 8:40 PM
Now, back to Flora and her statements. I would like to ask her to qualify another one of her comments. Specifically, I would like her to give clarity to her statement that holding a baby's head under water to get it to stop crying is a method of discipline used by FLDS. I am FLDS, and I have never seen or heard of such abuse.
I am XFLDS and I did see this type of abuse
Quietman
Well I like the knowledge of the 8:40 p.m. post. Ruby wanted Joe Rohbock which is how she was lured away from her brother Joseph Jr. who was her protector when she ran. After leaving Quail Creek Reservoir, Joe Rohbock stopped by his sisters, Chloe in Apple Valley, an hour there and then Fred's. Joe Rohbock was escorted off the property and threatened, not the outcome either Ruby or Joe were told would occur. It took Deputy Sheriff Sreve Stovall 4 days to go up to investigate and it was 35 days before Ruby came in to DFS with her mother. She was 14 on April 23rd when the Union was planned. I believe her birthday was May 3rd when she would turn 15. About a week or so after she ran. I recorded the calls with her brother. After returning, we noted in May of 2002 a small note in the Spectrum under legal notices that Ruby had applied for a mariage license, timed to her 16th birthday.
Utah Senator Ron Allen had seen passage of his Bill SB-146 and Mike Leavitt had signed it into law on April 30th of 2001. Warren knew the law, but thumbed his nose at it.
Ruby Ruby Ruby
Delima's
The Nevada polygamy blog placed the name of concern as Richard Holm, per the county investigator. Obviously a key witness in several cases in court thus far. Second guessing the role of RH, his history before Gary going back two decades and considering his contact level with Gary now becomes counter productive to my interest here. Disecting his role or whether a friendship exists, that is beyond his role as a witness, again at this time does not serve the issue or the victims of this.
People can point, state truths or rumors, but all in good time more truths will shake out. A rush to judgement, may be remembered and brought up later. Remember if you will, 6 years ago Rodney Holm had not been prosecuted, Warren was still 1st councilor to his father and prophet, William Black had not yet fled to Mexico, Warren had not yet started the purge, 8 Grand Jury's in Arizona had not convened, Canada had not started their investigation, nor had they demanded DNA samples from those there. It took time and thousands of man hours, actions not made public here or else where. A rush to judgement now about Flora or this issue, lacks the calculated judgement and facts that more time may well prove. 6 years ago most would of laughed at the results of this past year and next year, what is debated today may well be an interesting history tomorrow.
Scoff if you chose to, but the fat lady has not yet sung that last song.
Everyone here, do what you must, but there are more surprises to come.
MIB
PS Is this really the place to discuss what state and federal authorities are really up to?
Ever wonder why the state of Arizona did not arrest Flora for harboring the two Fawn runaways? Don't you wonder what she might of had on the state, that allowed her to defy them???
Atar or whoever you are who doesn't have the guts to use your name:
I am Linda Walker and have been involved in this issue for years and can tell you that not only does Flora not exaggerate she is the most important person in this work as she is incorruptible, unlike the many politicians and other authorities she has to deal with regularly.
I don't know why you get off on slandering someone who has done nothing but protect children but you are dead wrong in this and are part of the problem, not the solution. Like Flora I wish you would stop but not answering you simply shows we are engaged in the work to protect others, unlike you who has nothing to do but slander good people. I feel sorry for you.
I don't usually wish people ill but I will make an exception for you as you have hurt this cause so much. Find your guts and say who you are and who you work for. Flora and I don't hide behind fake identities, our work speaks for itself.
What a coward you are, you would get along well in Colorado City.
Linda, apparently I hit a nerve.
Interestingly enough if I question yourself or Flora on statements they make publicly - I get much the same treatment which you find so repugnant in the FLDS community - - ironic.
I stated that anti-polygamy has a huge PR problem after listening to the audio file (I only listened to the last half with Flora). I must now revise that statement - they have a MASSIVE PR PROBLEM.
I would encourage you (as I believe in the cause) to seek expert consultation in public relations.
I would also encourage you to consider me, as you might consider a focus group.
THIS IS HOW YOU APPEAR TO SOMEONE OUTSIDE
I'm just a rational working housewife. I've been on a few charitable boards, ethics committee's, community organizations. I'm very involved in present and past in many things.
This - is how someone like me (not XLFDS, FLDS, LDS or LE), I don't live in Utah, views the statements made by Flora, and now yourself
I AM the audience (mainstream USA), you are trying to get involved in this issue - and I'm telling you...you need to be accountable, and speak objectively.
Calling me names doesn't help the cause, it reminds me a bit of OTS when he's losing an argument and at the end of his rope, but I expect that sort of behavior from someone like him. I hope for more, from someone in your position.
Linda where is Flora?
You haven't read Atar_i's posts. Go figure.
Atar_i has not slandered anyone. She is asking for clarification or proof of Flora remarks she made on Oct. 13 at the exmormon conference.
It isn't too much to ask or is it?
ots
This exchange between you and me has become a dialogue. We are the only people on the blog who snap, crackle and pop at each other's comments. Therefore, I have determined that you have no knowledge of anything spiritual, that you invent scenerios, such as the twelve fluids of life, and bat mitzva for the sole purpose of stiring up the mud in your mind. That mud, constantly clowding the water within your cranium indicates that you are as mad as the Mad Hatter, a character from Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland.
Now, ONE MORE TIME; are you a husband and a father of children?
If not, YOUR OPINION REGARDING THE REARING OF CHILDREN HAS NO BEARING.
Yes, OTS has children!! He not only has the 5 he had with Lawrene, he has either 3 or 4 with Marie, as well.
Off the subject....what is LE?? I don't get it. Anyone?
thanks....
Muggsey, you add absolutely nothing to this blog except garrulous posts which I seldom even read anymore. I'm betting that I'm not the only one who just skips over most of what you post.
You are nothing but a dime-a-dozen self-righteous broken record.
OTS might be certifiably insane, but he does at least provide a unique surrealistic view into the culture occasionally.
Street-
As a Jew, I've had it up to here with your constant, incorrect references to bar and bat mitzvahs. The correct age always was, always will be thirteen (that's 13), not 12. It is an introduction of the boy or girl into man or womanhood as far as responsibilities as described in the Torah--not childbearing!!!
The first BAT mitzvah, that is, for a girl, was held in 1922, by Mordechai Kaplan for his daughter. He was one of the fathers of Reform Judaism where women were held as equal to men and so their responsibility to the Torah should be observed as equal to men.
Please stop sullying my faith by using words about which you know nothing. In Judaism, there are no twelve fluids. And the age of eight has no special significance except that an eight year old child should be left alone to go to school and learn and ride his bike and play with spit wads. That's what you do when you're eight.
Just leave the Jews out of this. All your Hebrew letters, all their special meanings, bar and bat mitzvahs. You have your own faith. Practice that. Stay out of mine when you know NOTHING about it.
Thank you annon. 2:23. The clarification of bar and bat mitzvah is most enlightening. The comment regarding the twelve fluids supports what I have suspected all along. Street knows only enough scripture to be dangerous, not informative nor enlightening.
Now street: Are you a husband or father? No anonymous answer will be considered as having originated from street.
2:20 your kind appraisal of my posts is most gratifying. I don't care what you think! When I detect smoke I will cry fire, got it?
LE (Law Enforcement)
Thank you contributor 2:23 for your imput.
There is a vast documented history of the Jewish people and it has been trampled on here.
Atari,
Keep up the good work. There is enough going wrong here that we dont need to embelish and lie. It just ruins credibility. Linda wow you are now as credible as Flora. MIB you are so funny. Keep reading those conspiracy books.....
Also, I find it funny that Flora pumped up how dangerous CC and its people are. When they found Warren he was going to be armed and dangerous and have several armed men ready to die for him.....blah blah blah....stick with the truth there are enough things that need corrected.. You are just making us not believe anything you say.
Good job Atari we appreciate your need for honesty.
Fredonia,
Who do you think the FBI was talking to when they created there posters. The reason you heard many reports is because flora and MIB type people are doing or saying whatever it takes. They lie to gain media coverage. There credibilty is shot. Of course FF they still have your support but why lie when the truth will serve you better.
The point is the truth is bad enough and all they are doing is ruining there crediblity. I have to now go back and question everything flora, linda and MIB have said.......
Once again I applaud you Atari and dont let them discourage you. You are in a great position to bring up these points.
I don't believe that Flora and Linda and MIB are liars either.
I find sensational things get me interested, but in order to form an opinion - I need objective information, data, statistics, photographs, first hand testimony.
Much of this data has been collected by Flora, Linda and MIB - and although there can be some debate about what the data means, it might be a mute point. For instance. If a 14 year old is pregnant, and the father is 76 - her consent to me is mute - and doesn't matter. Her age, and the age of the father are the only data that are germane to this situation.
I appreciate data like that - and the hard work to obtain such data.
I did not mean to cause such a ruckus. I needed data - objective data. I can be extremely persistent.
Lastly Anon 2:23 I apologize, I tend to decompress in yiddish since it's not widely recognized and I get a little steam off. I hope I haven't been offensive.
I don't understand the attacks on Mr. Engels. I don't understand why he would put himself and his family through the crap this FLDS community has dished out.
Where would the cases against the 7 men be if Mr. Engels was not in the Shortcreek community.
Do you want the investigator position disolved and start from ground zero?
Warren would love that.
Flora and MIB are you working for Warren?
Very funny, Val. You know very well that Luann is your oldest daughter. You aint foolin' those of us who know you. So maybe I spelled her name wrong. Do you want to correct me on the spelling? And how many kids did you have by Marie? I can't remember.....
Anon 8:40(pretending to be FLDS) and MIB
I worked with Joseph Rohbock, went to school with Cloteel, and I am related to Haven and his sisters, and you are both chasing your own tails and dont even know it. Knowing just enough to make your lies sound credible.
But what do I know. The truth doesn't matter on this blog anyway. You're all a bunch of linda walkers. But I love ya anyway.
Hate on!
and/or
Keep Sweet!
onthestreet if you are Val, I have lost a lot of respect for Val. So say it aint so.
But I still love ya.
Pligchild - are you in, out wanna be in, glad you're out. There are so many posters I can't remember whose whom.
Poor Val, still a plig. Still married to Marie and living with his mistress Laurene. Keeping them in fear and filled with lies as a means of control. I pity you Val. At least Laurene sneaks out and has a life when you are gone.
Do you enjoy keeping people in fear? Slaves to your religion?
pligchild,
Being related to someone or going to school with someone in no way equates to you having a knowledge about what went on. I would consider Ruby an excellent source for what went on, and she is the only one who ever told me about her situation. I can, however, sympathize with your desire to deny those unfortunate events and shoot down anyone who will talk about them. It is no fun when crap happens, especially when your family is involved.
"Not knowing anything about it, I can speak freely". J.M.Hammon
I know for a fact OTS isn't Val. Val does post on this board, but not as OTS. I know for a fact.
Anon 4:28 (and 8:40)-
The only crap that has happened is the garbage you spiel. The only unfortunate events are the ones in your imagination. From my prospective her story had a happy ending.
I am not arguing that you might have spoken to Ruby at one time, but I KNOW you are a bold faced liar if you say she told you that Havens sisters were molested by him, or that she was manipulated about going to hell if she didn’t become a piece of property. That rhetoric proves that you are neither FLDS as you pretend, nor honest as you presume. So the rest of your story, including your quote from Ruby is highly questionable.
I could say more but the bottom line is SHE IS FREE NOW, and has zero desire to flee. The real freedom she wants is the freedom FROM Flora and the camera’s, not to Flora from her husband and the FLDS. But I bet she still loves Flora.
Keep Sweet!
Don't forget little boy
Ruby did run away
Why?
For a kid filled with sweetness and light - you sure have a ton of nastiness.
I've seen that over and over with OTS. It's as if you compartmentalize your spirituality into one tiny section.
The rest - NOT SPIRITUAL, or spiritually driven at all - not one iota.
Two people on this blog who have truly represented what I believe the FLDS used to stand for are FTTC and Faithful Woman.
I get the sense they were raised right, it envelops all aspects of their life - even their posts on this blog.
When I read your posts - you poke fun, laugh, scoff and point fingers like any other rude kid from any public high school (does warren do that in jail?).
Atari, you are absolutely right. I cannot do you or Linda Walker any good here. There is absolutely no way for me to defend Warren or the FLDS in this forum without flaming back, and a true Christian wouldn’t do that, they would just take it and walk away as Warren tries to do. I was rude, I was condescending to that poster, but I assure you, I was raised right,(you can’t blame my parents for what I do). My faithful parents, faithful brothers and sisters, and most of my friends and family would never even post on this blog because it is the equivalent of sitting at the fire with the mob who wants to kill your family, your religion, and your leader. I am trying to be nice, but it is quite pointless. The reason you left the Flora blog, is much less than the reason for FLDS faithful to not post here. But I still do, so call it a weakness.
But let me put it to you, how it sounds to me.
Atari-
Prove to us on this blog that your 13 year old daughter was not molested by her father when she was 7! They were in the same house weren't they? THAT PROVES IT!
Try to look at Ruby from the prospective of her mother:
Ruby is being chased (flattering isn’t it?) by a 21 year old, when she is 14. They were caught kissing. You as a mother, what do you do? She is taken to her adopted father, perhaps the most kind and peaceful man in TOWN. (Even ask FTTC and Faithful) He asks her if she wants to get married, and she says yes. So who, as a mother, would you want [in our world DATING] your daughter? She was sneaking out at night, going to beer parties with her "protector" (according to Flora), and now she is given the opportunity to marry an 18 year old who is as good a man as the best 18 year old YOU(Atari, or You her mother) know.
Ruby changes her mind, and “runs away” to her brother. His life is carefree, and party hard. After a few days she decides, ALL BY HERSELF, that she didn't want to live that way, and SHE tells her 21 year old boyfriend to take her home. YOU, as the mother, are you anything but relieved? I have no idea when Ruby was actually married, but I KNOW she married a good man, even ask his little sisters. He is a much better man than I am.
I promise you on my very life, that she was never FORCED to marry, or to run away, or to come home, any more than you force your children to eat their vegetables.
But what do I know; I'm just a condescending high school bully.
I went to Cottonwood Park today. I noticed that someone has used a thick dark looking substance on the 1953 memorial monument in Cottonwood park. They have wiped the tar looking stuff across every word. I just thought that was interesting. It just brings more attention to it.
Atari, I cant create a new post and be anonymous. If you want you can recreate this under its own topic.
Pligchild
Why doesn't Ruby herself explain her feelings. Why does she let you or Flora define what is going on in her life.
That would end the questions. She seems she took control of her life according to your post. She seems level headed, right.
It would shut up Flora.
What is there to hide?
Plig - that was an awesome reply - AND I took you seriously - you made me think - what would I do as a mother.
I think that sort of post really explains how a faithful FLDS thinks - and it reflects your upbringing.
I want to encourage you to post so that people like myself can see your perspective and don't automatically have a knee jerk response to anything you say. You can be spicy like you were at the end a little dig here and there - but tell me how you see it, why you see it that way.
I hope by now, you realize that my burden for truth is slightly higher than that. It is difficult when someone indicates abuse and then recants. Was the report induced, or was it true and the person recants out of fear. Both have happened.
That is why I find it especially helpful for a video tape of any sort of interview with a suspected abuse victim - for a record.
Not only is first hand information important, but also other objective data and information from other sources.
Just because someone makes an allegation doesn't make it true, but it does mean that further investigation is indicated. Further interviews, physical evidence, etc.
Anon 2:53 - I think someone already mentioned that - and included a link to an article.
ots
Husband and father of many???????
you STILL haven't answered the question. Have you sired a living, breathing homosapien, male or female? Was or were the child(ren's) mother(s) inseminated by you? If not, how do you claim paternity? If the child(ren) were conceived by immaculate conception does that mean that you claim to be GOD? I know you're a wanna'be god, but I doubt that if you were indeed GOD that you would be having anything to do with anything as mundane as this blog.
muggsey,street,gentlemen,please look up "immaculate conception"in your encylopidea,I believe you will find that you both are using the term out of context.
respectfuley, Bluebeard.
OK Bluebeard, are these better?
Matt. 1:18 (KJV)
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Luke 1:26-31 (KJV)
26. And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth
27. To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29. And when she saw him she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30. And the angel said unto her, Fear not Mary: for thou has found favour with God.
31. And behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Luke 2:4-7
4. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
5. To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can't attempt nor will I presume to do so how this marvelous event of conception came about except as explained above. To so would be absolute foolishness. I accept the fact, as written, no more, no less. I am not GOD nor would I claim to fully know HIS mind and purposes.
muggsey,please,look it up in your encyclopidiea,you will veary likly be supprised at what you find.
with all due respect,
Bluebeard.
I see your point and concur.
Conception by DIVINE choice might be a better explanation.
Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
A string of explatives, the vile sexual references does not promote good.
The nasty fetid verbage that OTS spouted on this blog was so disgusting it had to be removed. I did make a 'copy' of it, just in case OTS comes back and claims moral superiority, or someone is curious about why anonymous posts are now being screened.
Well, well, well. What have we here. A bunch of people arguing over something they don't know anything about. If you want to know what happened to Ruby, you should ask someone that saw what happened. Someone that literally saw, with their own eyes, what happened. I am now ex-FLDS. I did some things when I was there that I am not proud of. I was young and very much under the influence of Warren Jeffs. I would first like to apologize for anything I said or did that offended anyone in these posts. Ruby and I were very close. I dare say that I even loved her. I wanted her to be happy and escape from the hell she was being forced to live in every day. That's right, I said it. FORCED!!!! Anyone that thinks differently does not know what they are talking about. By the way, I was 18 when I was "chasing her around."
Haven was 19 when he married her.
If you want to know the truth then you should email me @ joroluvsteresa@hotmail.com. The story is too long to tell on here.
Joseph,
Do you know the truth of anything else Flora was talking about. As an X-FLDS, I listened to her speech at the ex-mormon conference, and I'm in total denial of everything she alleged against the FLDS; mass baby murderers, baby abusers to get them to stop crying, and other things. Now as far as her allegation that it is always the head that is run over; I had my foot run over in a car incident. I should immediately contact Flora and tell her that feet being run over is not fatal.
I truly believe what Flora has said. I have seen and heard some strange things from my experience with the FLDS. Laurene Jessop was the one who revealed holding the baby under water to make it cease crying. Babies are discarded of like garbage etc...
I lived out there, or at least in the religion, for 23 years, and I truly never saw or heard of any such thing. I went to several baby funerals that were held up at the "baby cemetery." I wouldn't put it past the Warrenites to dig up the graves of the ones that "haven't been corrupted yet." But as for the baby murders and the abuse I never saw it. But that doesn't mean that some very bad stuff didn't happen out there. I just wish that people would produce evidence along with their accusations.
Here is a example of FLDS priesthood strategy which was revealed to me by the man who did it. I saw it in its progressive formation to its end, the man taking great pride in his strategy. He needed his wife and children back, so he worked first on the children. Communicating with his boys secretly, they in turn played guilt games on their mother. The boys also worked on their sisters in the same manner using guilt and fear. Later the father secretly communicated with the daughters and then worked his way to the mother. Using key religious words to frighten her and play upon her guilt. The mother later went back to the man thinking she was doing what was right for the children. The father then used economic control of the woman and also uses fear to control them now, twisting facts as he needs to. This fear is in the form of a grand conspiracy against the family which he has fabricated. He is very proud of what he has done and feels very clever. Now he has his second wife back and still maintains another household in CC. As long as his second wife and children are isolated from comparative information, they are trapped. He would boast of this to me and others to the point I had to stop associating with him.
Anonymous I am confused?
Was this man kicked from the "priesthood."
Was this man abusive and this is why his wives left him along with the children? Not by Warren edict.
Why did he have to go to such great lengths to be steathy?
This story does not make sense unless you are taking about V.J.
Then it makes perfect sense.
I just mean that when people post on this blog. I wish that they would talk about things that they have seen themselves. Not what they heard from rumors of some bitter relative that has nothing but the destruction of anyone and anything that isn't just how they think that it should be.
Joseph
I second that wholeheartedly. It is as improbable that there have been zero abuses as that there have been hundreds. Exageration and sensationalism will accomplish nothing but ruination for the reputation of those who use them.
Yes, it was "VJ". I am afraid that the solvents and other chemicals he works with have been affecting his mind. That is the only explanation I can figure for such devious behavior. Maybe there was something more which he did not reveal to me. Can you imagine what LJ must be going through right now?
Fredonia
I am with you. I think an investigation into allegations is necessary. Isn't that why Engles would have been at the cemetary? He is the official investigator isn't he? From what I have heard reported (which I concur is questionable since it is an ongoing investigation) it sounds as if he is looking into the allegations and is not finding them to be true. Shouldn't we await the results of the investigation before supporting the stories of the abuses? What I have seen happening is individuals that were not privy to what occurred with the children making assumptions based on hearsay. This is what I thought Joseph was referring to in the above post that I agreed with. Perhaps I mistook him?
My point in the last post was that we really don't know how much concern Engles has for any information he has collected. He is involved in an ongoing investigation. LE enforcement often does not and should not divulge information that may compromise an investigation. The allegations have been made, let LE take its course.
If the investigation does not uncover evidence that you know exists, make the evidence known to LE. If you feel to get involved to the extent of critiquing LE on how they are handling the case hire your own investigator. I don't mean an activist to stir up the public. I mean a licensed private investigator who will uphold the law and search for the truth.
I don't doubt your claims about graves being disturbed. I also know how some of the FLDS feel about the sacredness of the YFZ. I wouldn't think it out of character for the families to want close relatives moved to that place. Or any other place they felt was more sacred than Hildale/CC. Would such activity have to be made public? Or is it a private concern of the family? I don't know the answers to these questions. I do know that given the record of warren and his disrespect of law and government that it is not hard to beleive anything evil of the people who follow him. While it is my opinion that they are misled, deluded and duped, I also want to give them the same chance at justice that I want for myself.
You say you doubt they would give out the reason for the graves being disturbed. You didn't ask? You are giving opinion that is easily believed of course, but it is still opinion. If you are really interested in who the caretaker is, wouldn't it make more sense to call the City Hall and ask?
If something sinister is happening I want the perpetrators caught and punished as much as the next guy. I just think working on rumors and hearsay is not the way to accomplish this. I have spoken on this blog many times about warren's disregard for LE. How credible will I be if I try to go around them myself just because I don't think they are doing their job the way I think it should be done? This would damage any efforts I am making to rectify the situation. Let the law take its course.
I'm with you fttc. I think you hit the nail on the head with the families wanting their loved ones moved close to where they are. Warren has condemned CC\Hildale, and in my own hearing has said that it would not be a Zion, or a gathering place for the saints. I'm sure they have just moved them to their "holy places."
When I hear the graves of people who perished have been disturbed, I'm not certain what the real issue is. Whomever had the decision making authority to put them there after they perished is the person who is probably making the decision to move them.
If someone is moving them without the consent of that decision maker - I can see an issue - otherwise - I'm not certain what the issue is.
What rationale would the FLDS have for killing babies (that appears to be the assumption - that babies are being killed)?
We all know that the rate of birth defects has been increasing, so it only stands to reason that still births are probably increasing as well.
If the number is alarming - the birth defect ration is alarming as well.
I'm not trying to rationalize deaths - I just don't want to jump to hasty conclusions.
Are any of the XFLDS or FLDS concerned about the amount of accidents and suicides, baby deaths or disturbed gravesites?
I would be really curious about your perspective.
I just can't see where this is coming from. I lived there so long, and I have never heard of anyone abusing their babies. None of my relatives have had birth defects or stillborns.
Like you say, what would be the rationale for harming their children. That is their ticket to heaven. To have a large family and give girls to the leaders, and boys to labor and make money.
Some forms of abuse can not be seen from the outside. :(
Walton
I am grateful to you for bringing it up. I took no actual offence at your post and other than perhaps the names being posted saw nothing wrong with it. Actully it was the names that made me think of the reason for the disinterments that I proposed.
If you have real evidence that something illegal is going on then don't be quieted by anyone. I gathered from your posting that you were concerned by the rumors that are being circulated.
If this is the case shouldn't you be somewhat quieted by the fact that Engles has said there is nothing to be concerned about? Here you have Joseph's word as someone who lived there that the rumors are not entirely true. You have my word as one who was involved as well that the rumors are not entirely true. Who are you going to believe? If you have real evidence I wish you would exhibit it at least to LE if you cannot do it here. I am not trying to rake you over the coals for your opinions or comments here. I hope you do not feel intimidated by my challenging you. That is not my intention and I mean that in all sincerety.
I readily acknowledge that I do not know everything that was going on among our people in every family. I do think if there were a large number of defects and stillborns I would have heard about it. I think the numbers have been exagerated greatly. You have to remember that there have been many more children born in the FLDS community per family than in other communities and it upsets the statistics accordingly.
Wow, Joe is that you?
My apologies, but did you not turn 21 in 2001? I did the math by the grade you were in at Alta compared to mine.
But still, if I am Ruby's mother and father, I would prefer her marrying Haven than running around with either of the Joe's. Joe, don't you think Uncle Fred, and aunt Pat would agree with me?
I will shoot you an email to get the story "right"
Her mother actually wanted her to wait till she was at least 16 before she even thought about getting married. And her mother liked me a lot. I can't say for sure, but I'm sure she would have rathered her be with someone that would respect and lover her rather than with someone who abused her. Uncle Fred and Uncle Warren were both very threatened by my father, and the ability he had to gather people around him and get things done. The success he had in the Work Projects in Salt Lake for instance. That is the reason Warren axed him. And Uncle Fred always had a problem with my father. So, he had a problem with all my father's children too. Sucks doesn't it. It's not my position to judge, but if you know so much about the situation, why don't you tell the story?
Sounds like to me that you have something against me.
Fredonia you are just fine to question - I do it all the time - how else would we get the answers if we never asked.
If everythying you stated is true and there is an absurd number of still borns related to inbreeding.
There might or might not be a legal issue. If there is one - then you have something. If there is none, then it's unfortunate and probably not something with a quick fix.
Maybe they are killing all the boy babies!!!!! Linda your quest for money is hard to get around. Flora was abused and the people that did it will get what they have coming. She has hurt your cause! She's hilarious. Get through Linda because Flora's claims are great. Get some popcorn. Everyone in on the conspiracy. It's worth listening to linda looking for winning that big case to just hear flora.
Blood atonement? Holding children's heads under water? Running over kids head? I grew up there and don't live there now. This is ridiculous, this women has no credibility. People are after her children? Kurt Engles does live with Richard Holm who was thrown out of that community per The Spectrum. The women has lost it. Hang your hat on another person. She's making tee shirts now? Selling them? Did i hear that she was breaking the law by speeding? Just some thought I wrote down listening to it.
Most of Flora's information came from a credible source, and that was Lawrene Jessop. She has many tapes of interviews plus phone calls made to lawrene by her husband.
I've no doubt some of Floras information is correct. I think it needs to be seen for what it is.
It's not all true in every case. And it's probably partly true in some cases, and not all all true in other cases, and of course - the whole truth in some cases.
I have learned from this board, that the members of the FLDS are like a patchwork quilt. They fit together nicely, but all the squares are cut from different clothes.
So, it's hard for me to make flat black and white statements any more - I think by virtue they are false as soon as they slip through your lips.
As far as the high death rate of young children in Colorado City. It is very sad. Flora's claim that when she was there last there were 3 dozen new gravesites? 36 freshly buried children? Flora's craziness aside, what is the average age of Colorado City? A few years ago it was 5 years old. I can't remember the other cities stats that she was comparing them to but if you compare it to a retirement community where the average age is say 45 then of coarse CC's numbers will look skewed.
The bottom line is this, Flora Jessop was abused. PERIOD. This doesn't make her sane, an expert, or credible (when talking about community wide killing of children), all it does is make her a victim. She has the moral superiority and political capital to do alot of good in that community, and instead she spends her capital on crusading against the people trying to do their job investigating that community, by telling people that could help the cause at that conference that there is community wide killing of children. She's hurt the Crusade! She's hurt her cause. She's again acted in a way that drives people away shaking their heads in disbelief that they ever believed anything she's ever said. And who looses? She's already had her loss, but the victims and future victims are the loosers. Get her some help.
I think most of us feel there are valid issues with the community that need a helping hand. Flora's work should be augmented by other citizens who are willing to put time and effort into the issues that need addressing.
I hope that there is someone who wants to do that in such a way that the FLDS find safe. It might mean that the women/children who come forward for help never bring their case before a legal authority.
I think if you commit anyone who needs help to be a poster child for the prosecution of the individuals that victimized them - you will lose people who really want help, but can't bear to walk in those shoes.
I'd love to see an agency whose sole purpose is helping women/children and even men in hard circumstances. Get them back on their feet, teach them, hook them up with opportunities for education, jobs, housing, medical care, and social support.
The other stuff (legal) should be something that they alone decide if they want to be involved in. I just think it discourages some people from coming for help (the media attention, and prosecutorial pressure).
Clearly if a crime has been committed - it can be overlooked (for instance rape) but the authorities need to be very sensitive and it shouldn't be an opportunity to advance an agenda.
it CAN'T be overlooked.
my typo
Luanne Jessop was given away to another polygamist, many are saddened by this event. However Val received monetary compensation to aid his family as a result of this union.
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NEW REVELATION!
CNN guest compares gay marriage to FLDS sect polygamy [CUSTODY CASE: SLIPPERY-SLOPE: ARGUMENTS AS FALLACIES]
Availabe Archives at:
http://www.topix.com/news/gay/2008/05/cnn-guest-compares-gay-marriage-to-flds-sect-polygamy
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You all scare me. Please don't jump all over me. I can only say that I did my graduate work studying polygamy in the U.S. I interviewed many womyn who escaped polygam in the Utah Arizona area.
The stories I heard were heartbreaking - tales of abuse that were so layered it was difficult to tell where one began and another ended. Children that were so afraid and brainwashed into believing that what was being done to them was all right. Marriage at a young age is just one issue. Abuse starts much earlier than that and unfortunately most of the womyn and children in polygamy are beyond helping themselves. This is my own personal experience so be nice.
I just read Flora's book and do remember seeing her on Dr. Phil quite awhile back. First of all, I do not think Dr. Phil would have had her on his show if she was not credible. I do trust Dr. Phil's judgement on that matter even though I may not agree with everything he says. I do believe Flora's allegations especially since Warren Jeffs has been found guilty. As time goes on, things do periodically come out about the FDLS and people need to take it seriously. These abused people need help and our prayers.
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