FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Wednesday, September 06, 2006
Underage Girls Across State/Country Lines for Marriage
Does anyone know the names of the girls who were underage and went to Canada, Mexico, or across a state line when they married.
I'm not sure the names should be posted here at all but sent directly to ATAR_I if possible to protect these people from even more harm. And perhaps, ATAR_I, you could post some idea of what steps you are prepared to take to ensure this and why you are trustworthy enough to handle the info before someone gives any information. If all that happens is their names get passed to the wrong people, they will be worse off than ever.
Anyone who thinks this is not religious persecution ARE LOST!
If Polygamy was not required by our religion, we would not try to live it. End of STORY
IF Polygamy was not against the obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, then you could get all the information that you desire about who married who, when, and even speak to them about whether they were "forced" or not. BUT it IS against the law, END of story.
“Jane Doe” wants to make sure that everyone knows that it is not about religion. Who is she kidding? “Jane Doe” and the state of Utah contend that Warren Jeffs “forced” her to have sex. How did he force her? In what way was she forced? How was she threatened? Was she threatened with monetary fine? NO Was she threatened with imprisonment? NO Was she threatened with bodily harm? NO Was she threatened with death? NO
She was told that if she did not stay married to the man she said “I do” to, then she could lose her ability to procreate IN THE NEXT LIFE. What a threat! She was told that she might not be able to be something that no other religion believes is attainable anyway!
Now If that isn’t religious I don’t know what is.
I KNOW that she is MORE “forced” to make this complaint, than she ever was “forced” to get married!
And this is the STRONGEST case against Warren Jeffs? And he was on the FBI top ten “most wanted”? HELLOOO, anybody in there McFly?
Same lies of forced marriage, welfare fraud, and abuse as were claimed in 1953. The funny thing is THOSE ARE AGAINST OUR RELIGION TOO!
"...I can't believe I'm polygamist and actually saw these on a TV that I don't own because I'm so sheltered and deprived..."
well, if that were the case for all of them then wj probably wouldn't be in the mess that he is C.C. would practically be unheard of and we would care less about all of them very much in the same way ...we could care less about you
The name of the Congressman interested in this information is Trent Franks, 2nd District of Arizona.
I think they have a large list going already, but if you have information to contribute - I found the contact information on the website. I do not have the contact persons name, however I'm certain if you wanted to send an email or phone him - you could be directed to someone who could take that information
If you believe that the law prohibiting polygamy is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, you have the right to challenge it's consitutionality in the courts. Put up or shut up!
and on the same bases; I am a fundamental mormon. I came from a long line of Fundamental Mormons. In truth my roots go back to Adam. And he had more than one wife. So did Abraham, Issac and Jacob. So in your own words; Put up or shut up! and like one poster said,"we could care less about you" why, then waste your money time and energy on a battle you will not win? and multiple wifes is not illegal. the law agaist it is.....
Nice try, but polygamy (or plural marriage if you insist) is not on trial here. Marrying underage girls which is against the law, against the teachings of former leaders and against common sense is.
It's not my point to prove. It's the law of the land. Jesus said yield unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's. The law of the land is ('Caesar's) concern. The name Caesar equates with whatever government is in power, anywhere you live. Polygamy is outlawed within the United States of America. Practice polygamy and you are subject to the laws that prohibit it.
My point AGAIN is this: If you don't like the law, you are guaranteed the right to challenge it in court.
I don't think people/media/politicians/law enforcement are specifically interested in adults, they are more interested in the children.
In order to protect the children, they have to deal with what the adults are doing or allowing to be done, to the children.
Children, are not possessions, they are citizens, and are entitled to equal protection under the law.
Parents, are usually the people making sure that their young children receive this protection. For some reason, some parents have allowed, encouraged and even participated in situations which are vicitmizing young citizens of the US.
Thus far, a spotlight shined on this activity has done nothing to halt it. So the long arm of the law is finally saying 'no more'.
FLDS is not the only community or religious group that has problems in this way. The large welfare communities and low income housing areas in metropolitan areas have problems with parents not adequately protecting children according to the law, and involvement with law enforcement is quite common.
These parents, have a community of individuals from similar circumstances, but are all functioning independently. If there was a 'head guy' for these communities, bringing young folks in and arranging for them to be victims of crimes - he'd be held responsible as well.
If those 3-4 years before a girl becomes an adult, and legally able to consent are that important to the men of the community they need to be aware that they could sit in jail.
If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene.
If young boys aren't dumped in the middle of the desert and abandoned prior to their 18th birthday, there will be no legal reason to intervene.
Just a couple small modifications, and everyone is a consenting adult.
Of course the welfare fraud will probably end up being addressed if the taxpayers realize what they are paying to support polygamists who claim they are married but 'declare' they are single.
The police officers not upholding the county/state laws will have to be addressed.
The theft of property will have to be addressed.
But those are problems that are local, and dealt with at a local level, they won't incite the ire of the populations not directly affected by them like the children do.
mugs- The law was challenged back in 1879, and the Supreme Court ruled that it was "constitutional" based on the theory that they had to have some control on religion, or else there would be people who commit human sacrifice in the name of religion. WHICH IS BOGUS. That equates the family of Jacob as inhuman as the murderous priests of BAAL!
Congress should make no law against the FREE EXERCISE of religion. We will live by the constitution, and the bill of rights, and NOT by unconstitutional laws. Our CREATOR gave us this right, NOT the government.
fttc -NICE TRY, but it IS about religious polygamy. How many teenage mothers among monogomists have older men being charged with rape SOLELY on the fact that the girl was under 18? NONE! Haven't you noticed that a judge was debarred, and that policemen were kicked off the force, not for police or judicial misconduct, but for the SOLE reason they had more than one wife!
atari said- "If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene."
Make the girls wait, big deal. BUT the LAW that put Rodney in jail is a Utah state law that was not passed until 2001; AFTER his marriage was performed. That law states that no girl can get married under 18 to a man that is 10 years her senior WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Is this law against underage sex? NO! Only MARRIAGE! Why wouldn't a judge give permission? How did this become a law? (hint: anti-polygamy) How about Kelly Fischer? would he have been convicted of anything had it not been for polygamy? OF COURSE NOT!
About Welfare "Fraud". Where is it? Why has no one in the FLDS been charged with it? Isnt it rampant as you say it is? OBVIOUSLY NOT. More lies piled on lies.
About boys being dumped in deserts. BOGUS! IF your son refused to live by the rules of the home, refused to come home at night, and ran away often, what would you do? Think hard. These boys wanted to leave, and they were obliged. I'll bet you nickels to $20 bills that every single one of them (who want to) still have contact with their parents, who love them very much.
THEFT OF PROPERY? HELLOOOO? Who did the property belong to? Who do 99.9% of the FLDS people want controlling the property? (I'll give you a hint it's NOT Bruce Wisan)
All of these "so called" crimes, including polygamy, are not the goal of ALL of you who want to destroy the FLDS. The great crime that you want to stop, is the crime of holding and obeying what we know are Gods law's above man's laws.
Yes, polygamy is outlawed in the USA. BUT REMEMBER! It only became outlawed, WHEN Joseph Smith began to live it.
It was not outlawed BEFORE that time. SOOOOO!!! it was the evil minded men that came up with this law, to trap those that was living it.
It's the same thing today. The (evil) men and women of todays society, who want to do away with people living moral clean lives, decided to craft a law that would entrap our prophet, and those supporting him.
Be as it may, Uncle John Y. Barlow said, the day would come when evil men would creat laws to harm us. He said "The laws they create against is, will be for us. And the laws they create for us will be for us." You figure this one out yourself's. I understand it, do you?
Heber C. Kimball said "A Test, A Test, A Test is coming, and WHO will PASS the Test.
I pray that I can.
It would take us through a great test, but in the end, those that made the laws, would entrap their own selfs. Happy Living With Yourselves, :)!
1-The prophet and only the prophet speaks for the Lord (one man rule). 2-The prophet is the only person living who can receive revelation on who should marry whom. 3-Whatever the prophet seals (marries) on earth is sealed eternally in heaven. Whatever the prophet releases (or dams)on earth is eternally released in heaven. 4-A woman must be sealed to a man holding the Priesthood to avoid being destroyed in the next life. 5-A woman will only have access to her children in the next life if she is sealed to a priesthood man.
Now, if a woman or girl believes all the above to be undisputable truth, it is a lot of "force" when the prophet threatens a woman or girl with eternal damnation if they don’t "strictly obey" every "revelation" or word of council he gives them. For lack of a better term, it is mental blackmail.
I noticed you did not address the fact that these underage marriages that warren, and Kelly, and Rodney are being/have been prosecuted for were done against the counsel of the two former administrators. If our people had kept this counsel and lived our religion we would not be in this mess at all. The promise of the Lord to stand in our defense would still be in effect. The media would not be giving air time to the anti-FLDS and LE would still be too busy with other things to notice. It was the departure from the truth that brought all this upon us and now you.
What's the difference, sacrifice to virgins Baal or virgins to sex maniacs. I see little difference between the practice and worship of Diana, Aphrodite, Venus, or Asharah. These religions practiced open sexual acts between citizens, both male and female, and temple prostitutes. FLDS prostitutes it's children to lascivious behavior.
I believe that you are on the right track. These 'Celestial' Marriages, at the Prophet's will are simply an extension of the control system that permeates the strength of this cult's leaders, (profit) through priesthood. How very sad.
I think it is wrong to classify all FLDS or polygamists as "sex maniacs". I would venture to say many if not most of them are much more conservative in the sexual lives than the majority of the population. Sex, as taught in the FLDS is for procreation, not recreation. It is a gift from the Lord, and like any gift there will always be those who abuse it.
CTR - it's nice to see a response like yours, it helps see how it feels to be on the other side of the dispute.
I'm certain you look at my posts and say 'what is she thinking', and that's how I feel with yours often times. But that last post, I got a glimpse into the feeling of persecution you have as a member of a polygamous sect.
I don't agree with it, but I can see how you got to that opinion.
I have heard other groups claim that all of their problems are because of prejudice - not becuase of their actions. They wear certain clothes, have certain jewelry, talk certain ways, but somehow everything negative that happens to them is because of the color of their skin.
They view everyones reaction to them through that filter. On some occassions they might be right, but on most occasions, peoples responses to them have nothing to do with the color of their skin, and more to do with their personal interactions, how they conduct themselves, and other things they have control of.
I doubt the dress codes for most public schools ever thought they would be addressing the issue of showing ones underwear - and so school dress codes have been refined to now address the problem of showing 6 inches of underwear. No one thought it would be a problem, thus, it was never addressed. It's not meant to persecute teenage boys, but to ensure all conform to a certain standard of decency.
Anyhow - NOT everything is because of polygamy. some things are...just what they are.
And, occassionally you will find a young girl who has sex with an older man consensually (Joey Butafucco) but it's still not OK, and he went to jail for having sex with that 16 year old girl.
When an adult female (Mary Kay Letourneau) had sex with a young man, who claimed it was consensual - she went to jail (twice).
Those are just a couple of examples (using them because you might have heard of them). People are always outraged by adults having sex with minors. Polygamy, the age of the partner, the stress on reproduction, the lack of education, the pressure to become intimate by the church and the family are just icing on the cake - and make it all the more outrageous to most adults.
It is only when the rights of the child are violated that you will find the sort of heat your situation generates.
And, I CAN understand what it is like to live with an unruly child - I'm not certain any ones erudition on this subject equals mine. I did it - and since you have 'all these mothers' to help - you should be able to, and should be EXPECTED to. Not all children come out obedient and easy, you're the parent - YOU FIND A WAY.
I stand by my earlier statement regarding that FLDS male population is made up of sex maniacs. What valid reason can be given for polygamy than to ensure in the extended families of each male that there are not at least one or two marriagable aged girls. These girls are chattel in a swap-off with other priesthood members so as to guarantee a ready supply of "fresh" meat to satisfy those men's desire for "young-'uns". This whole idea of a Celestial kingdom is not disimilar to the Islammic idea that if you are martyred in a jihad you will be immediately transported into heaven and supplied with X # of virgins, for your pleasure.
Since those who dwell in heaven are spiritual beings, and there is no giving or taking in marriage in heaven, what purpose does this practice serve except to satisfy the sexual appetite of earth-bound sexual perverts.
As for magazine covers, you'll have to be the expert in that area. This is not to say that I am not tempted by photos of nearly nude young women, I would be lying if I made that declaration. The difference here is between a person being 'tempted' by and 'succumbing' to participation in seeking out those pictures simply for the 'kick' of stimulation. I don't subscribe to any magazines nor buy them off the shelf. Why? I simply think to do so is a waste of money.
You have the right to your opinion, but I strongly disagree and think you are way of on this one.
Many, if not most of my fellow FLDS brethren that have more than one wife did not wed young, and never desired underage girls for their plural wives. Now, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but I do know the men well, and I know my own desire to have more than one wife. Sex (particularly with young girls) was not the reason, eternal salvation was. You of course come from a different background and will not see this because you don't have the same background as I do.
Do I enjoy sex? That is a dumb question, it is one of God’s gifts to man, but I have been taught and believe that it should be carefully moderated. Do I live for sex? No, it is a bodily appetite that should be controlled. Just like eating is an appetite that should be, but often isn’t. You can’t say that just because a few around me abuse their food intake, that we are all now gluttons can you? Do I desire sex with young girls? No, that is sick and wrong and is one of my reasons I question the underage marriages that have happened. You can’t judge all from the actions of a few.
Keep in mind Muggsey, us mortals see the world and others not as they are, but as we are. Maybe I'm an eternal Polyanna, but I try to see the best in others, and view others through the prism of my own beliefs and values.
In a class room, it is very difficult to teach the class when one or two students (male or female) decide to show off, mouth off, make statements and disrupt the whole class.
The teacher has no alternative but to send the student/s to the principal.
When it happens again, and again, and again. Eventually the student/s are evicted from school. So that those who want to get their education, and govern theirselves, can and will.
It's the same way with these so called "lost boys" they know what happened. They just will not tell the whole truth.
In the home, when the parents are trying to raise their children to have a clean moral life. If one of the children in the home (an older son or daughter) who brings (drugs,filthy cd's,pitcures,language,dress,etc...) into the home and introduce it to the other children in the home. The parents, (flds or non-flds) have the right to remove this harmful situation from their home, in order to preserve the other children in the home.
THIS IS NOT THEIR FIRST OPTION. THEY ASK THE CHILD/REN, TO REMOVE THIS HARMFUL STUFF, AND LEAVE IT ALONE. THEIR PARENTS ASK THEM,PRAY FOR THEM, DO ALL THEY CAN TO HELP THEM CHANGE THEIR WAYS.
But after so many askings,pleadings,praying,etc.. those child/ren who refuses to change, they are asked to leave the home, so that those children who are still young, can grow up without that (evil) influence.
Beleive me I know, I went through it with my older children. don't think it is easy having your child, son or daughter asked to leave their home and community. But in order to have that influence out of the home, this is what happened. And it is what happened to all of those young boys/girls that were asked to leave.
News articles scoff about "male compition" What a joke. If these young adults were to change their ways and repent of the evils that crept into their lives, they would be invited back rejoyicingley(sp?).
These boys/girls know this, but they have let an offended spirit take over them. And it dosent help when someone else wispers into their ears that they are a (pour picked on soul). They know what to do, now it is up to them.
Muggsey - You have stated your religious belief of the hereafter:
-Since those who dwell in heaven are spiritual beings, and there is no giving or taking in marriage in heaven
Fundamentalist Mormons believe differently. Okay?
I can count on 2 fingers the number of women I've had sex with which surpisingly is the number of women I'm married to. That is kind of strange considering I am a sex maniac as you put it. I also love both of them. I am capable of loving more than one person.
Smuggsey I will tell you there are easier, cheaper, less stressful ways to have sex. I choose a lifestyle that is alot of work. For me it is a labor of love, but it's not cheap, it's not easy, it's not one big sex romp. It's about relationships, children, creating a good environment for my family to live.
So for your homework, muggsey, I want you to count the number of sexual partners you've had and how many of those partners your in a life long loving commitment with. Can you be intellectually honest enough with yourself to do this?
With that I'll go, but before all the winners out there throw out there usual comebacks and flames, I'll say this. I abhor abuse! Flora Mae was abused and it is the most ungodly thing to do to another human being. If children are being abused, neglected, molested, raped, ect. then I want to see the abuser in jail. With that said, marriage between consenting adults (however brainwashed you think they are) is just fine. Now flamers, notice I said adults. Those are people who are 18 years and older. As you can tell I'm not affiliated with FLDS, so you can't use that flame either.
So good luck, enjoy your witty comeback and be clever and original. You can do it, I have faith in you.
Speaking of the issue of state lines, because it could not be determined in which state were the crime happened, a jury in Arizona found one of the FLDS men on trial NOT GUILTY, Donald Barlow walked out of the corthouse a free man. Read Newspaper Article
Prosecutors in the Warren Jeffs trial better have their ducks in a row because Warren Jeffs has the money to buy the best defense attorneys around, an could like this FLDS man walk out the door a free man. Scary though, but it could happen.
You have given what I believe is the logic behind a lot of the teenagers being asked to leave. There are other alternatives that would be far more helpful to these children. Law enforcement provides avenues for helping parents with unruly children that cannot be handled by the parents. Uncle Roy told parents to turn these children over to the law in many cases that I know of and the parents would not do it. To say that a child must be put out on the street to find his/her own way back is to shirk the responsibility that we have as parents. There are better ways than to let these unmanageable young men and women drown in their alcohol and ruin themselves with drugs.
I feel like you are right, they should be turned over to some program that can help them.
In my case, one son left on his own, but not after a lot of turmoile. I am still working with other children in the home who have been influenced by him as well as others in the home. Three more were asked to leave, but they had a place to go.
fttc & 12:53 - I can't help but wonder that if there was total unity within a family perhaps strife would be reduced. I know that this is true in monogamous families. Not all monogamous marriages are happy, many are not, so please don't think that monogamy in and of itself is the issue. I know that polygamy was practiced by some in the Old Testament. We have examples of several polygamous relationships where there was conflict. Sarah and Haggar were at odds. Even the sisters Leah and Rachel demonstrated jelousy. Without perfect people, and I am not acquainted with a single one, no union can be perfect. But, according to Matthew 19:4-6 & 1 Cor. 7:2 KJV, God's ideal was not polygamy but monogamy.
Matt. 19
4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5. And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6. Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
1 Cor. 7:2
2. Nevertheless to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
As far as belief in three heavens, I agree, just not in the same way.
Firstly, I see the heaven under which we live, our atmosphere, stratosphere, inner space.
Secondly I see the reaches of space, as far as the eye can see,or outer space.
Both these 'heavens' are the creation of God for our wonder and amazement. Our understanding is limited by the vastness of space as is our ability to comprehend it's depth or God's power to create such.
Thirdly, I believe in the fact that being in the presence of the Lord is considered the ultimate heaven. I believe that when I surrendered 'self' into the Lord's care and trusted Him as my Savior I was was immediately granted access to that Most Holy Place through the presence of the Holy Spirit dwelling within me. At that moment I entered eternity. I dewll there now.
Yes, one day my earthly life will end, but at that point I will pass from this carnal life, through the gate of human death into the eternal presence of my Lord. Death into Life Everlasting. Do I totally understand this concept? No, and I doubt that anyone who claims to have all the answers knows as much about that "peace that passes understanding" which I and many fellow Christians possess.
With the coming together of two, a man and a woman, male and female, as one flesh, a human life comes into existance. We understand the scientific principles of conception but, there are those who, fo one reason or another can't concieve. If we are unable to do so we ponder the value of our life. I don't find anywhere that the Lord loves us any less because of this inability. I do believe that such a situation is a test of the individuals faith. One of our duties as humans is to procreate. I can find no reference in the word of the Lord proclaiming that human life will be repeated.
Luke 20:34-36
34. And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
I appreciate your candor and the thoughtfulness given to your replies to my previous post. If the post does not fit your siuation it was not meant for you. I can't judge the individual, but I can inspect the fruit, just as you are able to do. And the Lord said, "by their fruits ye shall know them."
May God bless each of you in your continuing search of His truth.
Nice dodge by the way. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ring a bell? Abraham was God's beloved. He walked and talked with God, wouldn't God have told him to stop this horrible practice?
The reality is no is coming here looking to be converted either way. You and OTC can cut and paste scripture back and forth all day and it won't change anyones mind.
Perhaps what can be achieved is an honest search for what our lifestyle is about. You could do better trying to understand it. Legalize plural marriage and you can begin to regulate it. It will open up these societies which will allow more scrutiny. The problem is it is illegal in American in 2006 to be married to more than one consenting adult at a time. They won't prosecute you for it but yet they keep it illegal? If you aren't going to prosecute it then legalize it. It would make it easier for the government to prosecute welfare fraud, child abuse, etc.
Muggsey have you got your homework assignment done? You never responded to my question I'll repost it below.
So for your homework, muggsey, I want you to count the number of sexual partners you've had and how many of those partners your in a life long loving commitment with. Can you be intellectually honest enough with yourself to do this?
The only reason i want you to answer it is because you call us sex maniac or something of the like.
UH Hum! NOT ALL families that are flds have multipule ladies in the family. Some not a lot only have ONE (1) Wife for the moment. UNTILL designated by the Lord.
So even a single Husband/Wife Family has strife with children that choose to do differently.
Uncle Warren NEVER said "dump your children on the streets ".
He said have them "go repent from afar". If they really want this lifestyle, they will do all within their power (including the lord of course) to make their way back.
Uncle Warren expect's each one of us to be so inspired, that we will seek unto the Lord for direction and guildance in these matters.
If that means HELP your son/daughter find a place to live out in the world, by all means help them.
Can you for a minute immagine the Lord saying to a faithfull person " because you helped your son/daughter find a place to live when they were asked out, last year, ye are damned!".
NO! the Lord himself said " I am the same yesterday,today, and forever."
What was your childhood like? Did you parents help you through a rebellious streak? I know the name of one of the twelve high and holy who had a porno problem in his younger days, but the father helped him through it. Was he kicked out?
It's my understanding (from watching the news) that the "rebelliousness" of one lost boy is simply that he wanted a public education instead of priesthood school education; not all cases are drugs, alcohol, etc., but can you blame the children for getting involved in these vices? We eliminate all avenues of recreation that helps divert those things; very little for sports or other forms of recreation that is so necessary to keeping children away from these vices. My own brothers have been forbidden to even ride bicycles or fly kites in an open field (they have to do it at home)! It's no wonder children are getting into vices. Quit juding the "lost boys" and start admitting the cause of the illness.
P.S. I don't think a public school teacher can expel a student on a whim because they were disorderly.
When I click on a thread, it brings up the tail end. As I read backward up to where I last checked in, I often think you are OTS until I get to the first paragraph.
Two unarmed people in a duel; they are going to be fighting a long time.
face it guys; there are none of you that have had only one woman. And there is honor in taking care of your woman. Face it guys. Look right in the mirror and face yourselfs with the truth. And since none have but one wife legally the government is up a creek.
About children who bring drugs, photos, turmoil into the home. The teacher will ask the student to leave the class - but the school district has other alternatives for that child - different structures that work for troubled children (AND THIS IS JUST THE SCHOOL DISTRICT - NOT THE PARENTS).
I mentioned earlier that I had experience with this. I took in a child who was not mine. I can tell you that I experienced all manner of turmoil - not only his, but the turmoil that was attached to him.
I had three young children in my home during all of this. Those were the hardest years of my life. We were it. If we didn't care for this child, no one else would. And if I didn't try absolutely every option to save him from himself, I couldn't have lived with myself.
That's what GOOD parents do. And, if after everything you still find that you cannot have this child in the home, THEN YOU FIND ANOTHER HOME, or another SAFE place for your child.
If I can be honest with Christ why can't I be honest with myself? Jesus knows all my shortcomings and has forgiven each and every one.
If I have answered to Christ, I have answered to the Highest Authority and owe neither you nor any man a recounting of my shortcomings. I respect my feminine friends to the point I would not compromise their reputation. Christ knows what has happend in my life and in the lives of all with whom I have associated through the years, that is all that matters.
I know, beyond a shaddow of doubt that when I stand, as all Christians will do, before the Judgement Seat of Christ all my sins will be confessed but, I know that I have been washed in the cleansing Blood of the Lamb and will be told to enter into the joy of HIS presence.
I do not cut and paste. Each scripture is researched and copied directly from the Bible. Personally I think that the KJV is antiquated and that versions in modern English give a better understanding of God's word. Even the New KJV is far superior to the 1611 version. Why? Firstly, Jesus did not speak King James English. The main reason is the updated language. Many of the phrases and words used in the KJV are no longer in common use. I prefer the NIV or the NASB. Both are scholarly works, translated from the oldest manuscripts by not just one but a host of scholars. Not only theologians but scholars familiar with Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic contributed to the translations. These translations were not completed in a few months, but required years of intense study and comparison before they were finally committed to the final edition of the aforementioned translations.
I quoted from the KJV because I know that LDS advertise that they will provide anyone who asks a free copy of the KJV. What is not told the viewer is that the edition is as abridged by Joseph Smith, a semi-literate, totally unfamiliar with any foreign language, more especially Reformed Egyptian of which no one has found anything that remotely could be considered as having come from such an imaginary hoax. Papari, reported by Smith as being in the same language was translated by Egyptologists and found to be ancient writings concerning embalming and burial, not to be associated with books of Abraham or Moses or "The Pearl of Great Price."
Another fact is not mentioned in the commercial: That the free KJV will be delivered by two young men, riding bicycles, wearing black suits, white shirts and black ties. They are not told that they will be offered a "Second Revelation of Jesus Christ", Joseph Smith's much desputed and unsubstantiated "Book of Mormon." They will also not be told in the commercial that these same young men will attempt to tell the people who called that this second book is superior to the first.
With so much subtrifuge demonstrated by LDS and the recent revealing of the duplicity of the great and faultless Prophet Warren Jeffs, who makes strict rules but won't follow them himself.
You have the right to your opinion, but I strongly disagree and think you are way of on this one.
Many, if not most of my fellow FLDS brethren that have more than one wife did not wed young, and never desired underage girls for their plural wives. Now, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but I do know the men well, and I know my own desire to have more than one wife. Sex (particularly with young girls) was not the reason, eternal salvation was. You of course come from a different background and will not see this because you don't have the same background as I do.
Do I enjoy sex? That is a dumb question, it is one of God’s gifts to man, but I have been taught and believe that it should be carefully moderated. Do I live for sex? No, it is a bodily appetite that should be controlled. Just like eating is an appetite that should be, but often isn’t. You can’t say that just because a few around me abuse their food intake, that we are all now gluttons can you? Do I desire sex with young girls? No, that is sick and wrong and is one of my reasons I question the underage marriages that have happened. You can’t judge all from the actions of a few.
Keep in mind Muggsey, us mortals see the world and others not as they are, but as we are. Maybe I'm an eternal Polyanna, but I try to see the best in others, and view others through the prism of my own beliefs and values.
IITMOC
Is this why Sam Barlow, Sam Roundy, and many others have such a fat gut?
Nice dodge by the way. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ring a bell? Abraham was God's beloved. He walked and talked with God, wouldn't God have told him to stop this horrible practice?
The reality is no is coming here looking to be converted either way. You and OTC can cut and paste scripture back and forth all day and it won't change anyones mind.
Perhaps what can be achieved is an honest search for what our lifestyle is about. You could do better trying to understand it. Legalize plural marriage and you can begin to regulate it. It will open up these societies which will allow more scrutiny. The problem is it is illegal in American in 2006 to be married to more than one consenting adult at a time. They won't prosecute you for it but yet they keep it illegal? If you aren't going to prosecute it then legalize it. It would make it easier for the government to prosecute welfare fraud, child abuse, etc.
9/08/2006 3:25 PM
Your comment is interesting because the polygamists I know want decrimilization instead of legalization. They INSIST upon this distinction. That is a BIG deal to them - the legal difference between the 2 - legal vs. decrimilization.
Why are you pushing fot legalization? I want to understand both sides of the "legal" battle.
Uncle Warren NEVER said "dump your children on the streets ".
He said have them "go repent from afar". If they really want this lifestyle, they will do all within their power (including the lord of course) to make their way back.
Uncle Warren expect's each one of us to be so inspired, that we will seek unto the Lord for direction and guildance in these matters.
If that means HELP your son/daughter find a place to live out in the world, by all means help them.
Can you for a minute immagine the Lord saying to a faithfull person " because you helped your son/daughter find a place to live when they were asked out, last year, ye are damned!".
NO! the Lord himself said " I am the same yesterday,today, and forever."
He is a God of mercy,Love,Justice, etc...
9/08/2006 5:44 PM
I disagree with you here. These young men were NOT asked "go repent from afar". They WERE run out of town and dumped on the streets to fend for themselves.
This in nothing but child neglect and child abuse and the parents need to be held accountable for driving their children out of their homes.
If your God won't protect them, then the Law will.
This behaviour MUST stop. And if it doesn't, then people WILL be held accountable!
Can you for a minute immagine the Lord saying to a faithfull person " because you helped your son/daughter find a place to live when they were asked out, last year, ye are damned!".
Yes I can imagine just that. Because it is what Warren did to me an my family. The Lord did not say this. The Lord did not require this. Warren Jeffs said and required this or we would be damned if we did not do this.
It appears tht ots is attempting to impress any who will read his rambling incohearent postings. Since, of late, he has been refering to his frequent request of answers from God that maybe he is making a pitch to replace Warren as top dog. Those of you who think Warren a despot, what would your world be like were ots assume control. Not only would you be force fed innumerable rules but would have to listen to his "super-ego superiority" complex rant and rave about concerning the colors, shapes, numerology, cross referencing one letter to another or taking a single letter or sylable of an english word and attempting to give it spiritual significance.
OTS is a mumbling bumbling freak. I am amazed at the vomit he spews.
OTS is somewhat like a bad weather man. You know he is way off, but you cant help watching (or reading) what he has to say...and then end up feeling embarrassed for him.
Richard Wright Warren Jeffs Attorney of, one in the same with the sexual predator who molested and killed a 7 year old girl in the Nevada Primm casino bathroom. Tells ya a little about who is willing to crawl down in the mud with Warren! What is this telling the faithful that he could only obtain an attorney that defends pedophile baby Killers?
LAS VEGAS (Court TV) — The murder of 7-year-old Sherrice Iverson in a casino bathroom in 1997 set a new standard for outrage and shock in Nevada, a state built on the gaming industry. The Los Angeles native had been sexually molested and strangled in one of the glitzy, busy casinos the state is known for, and the public wanted swift justice.
They got it, it seemed. Eighteen-year-old Jeremy Strohmeyer, a casino patron from Long Beach, Calif., confessed to the murder, pleaded guilty and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Does OTS understand authorities will use his explanation of his understanding of the FLDS doctrine to convict Warren Jeffs? With OTS help 5 to Life may be life in prison and if 12 years old is fair game, OTS may one day be in a padded cell next door. They can play checkers through the bars and watch each others back, when "bubba" comes visiting.
I fear your forcast could very well become fact. I am and have been opposed to abuse of children, both boys and girls since I first appeared on this blog. My concerns have not ceased with the apprehension of Warren Jeffs.
It may be harder now for the fathers to market their daughters and the elders to get the pick of each litter, but I fear that a way to circumnavigate the prophets binding ceremonial weddings may be found by those vile enough to continue the practice.
Although I do not endorse the practice of polygamy and abhor the results, as recorded by those individuals who are brave eough to face absolute ex-communication. With the practice being entered into by consenting adults I find the practice less objectionable. With children, however, I find the practice despicable.
Once again I must state that I, and most other hard working Americans, despise the way plural wives are portrayed as destitute single mothers in order to raise cash to fund the various bands of polygamists. The lengthy history of violence against those human beings both inside and outside the cult does not recommend the lifestyle you choose to live.
I still believe that public trial, maybe with the security afforded Adolph Eichmann during his Isralli trial, is in order for Jeffs. He needs to answer to his people and to the citizens of this country whom he has defrauded. The nation needs to be exposed to the extremes which Jeffs was able to implement during his active rule.
Apprehending the carismatic leader of the largest single known cult in the United States is noteworthy. The leaders of the Branch Davidians, Jonestown, and Heaven's Gate were such cowards that they took their own lives to prevent having to face public outcry. If Warren Jeffs achieves the same goal, will his sheeple be right behind him in his footsteps of self destruction?
Bubba's violence, in the penitentiary, is not the answer to Warren Jeffs. He is too frail and physically incapable of withstanding that kind of abuse. That sort of action would take care of the immediate problem, and satisfy revenge motives but would also serve to make of Jeffs a martyr.
How can those FLDS who are have been cast outside the boundries of the elect stand by and allow their families to be once again victimized by a now impotent despot? Do they not possess any self-respect? Would an attempt to rescue their family be met with armed resistance? Are Jeffs lieutenants powerful enough to think for themselves?
Jeffs rule has obviously been largly one hoax following another. He has established for himself numbers of devoted diciples who have been so browbeaten and brainwashed that it is extremely difficult for those of us on the outside to understand that kind of unrelenting suffocating control.
He travels about the country in Cadillacs, visits vacation places that most of us just dream about, carries enough cash with him for most of us to clear our indebtedness, pays no taxes, makes no real contribution to society, answers to nobody and still the contributions roll in.
To quote Shakespeare's Hamlet, "Something is rotten in Denmark."
face it guys; there are none of you that have had only one woman. And there is honor in taking care of your woman. Face it guys. Look right in the mirror and face yourselfs with the truth. And since none have but one wife legally the government is up a creek.
Excuse me you are painting with a mighty broad brush are you not.
I have had sex with only one woman the one I have been married to for 22 years
Street I echo the sentiment Yuk, I'm not the one chomping at the bit to get these girls harvested - you are.
Their not mature enough, physically in 4th grade to be a mother (and yes, for some it starts that early). And some are late bloomers in 10th grade.
But, I can tell you, by the age of 18 - not only is it assured that they are somewhat physically mature, they are also legally mature - and can do as they please.
If you want to fight over a few years, potentially lose everything for a few years with a young maiden - be prepared. There is nothing forcing you to have sex with her, but there IS a law that states you can't (or anyone else).
Besides, it sounds like your just trying to subdue overcurious, disobedient, or anxious girls - not have some spiritual experience. It's all about control (why does that NOT suprise me).
If I have answered to Christ, I have answered to the Highest Authority and owe neither you nor any man a recounting of my shortcomings. I respect my feminine friends to the point I would not compromise their reputation. Christ knows what has happend in my life and in the lives of all with whom I have associated through the years, that is all that matters.
You say this and i get the answer i'm looking for. You are however, correct, if you lived a lifestyle or had indescretions and have repented and do them no more, then you should take courage in your life and live every day to the best of your ability. Oh, by the way, I like the newer translations of the bible to, it's fun to read.
Onthestreet - At first i thought you were joking, but you aren't and some of your rantings are very disturbing. You must not have any daughters or you are truly sick. It's people like you that give Plural Marriage a bad name. I wish you'd stop trying to defend sex with a 12 year old and start seeing how you can fix abuse, neglect, etc in your own community.
atar - I'm not faithful FLDS, but i think 9/11 was a tragedy. It is always a tragedy when innocent people lose their lives. Also along those lines, the real fundamentalist that the government needs to be worrying about are the ones that want to kill non believers that of course being, Islamic Fundamentalist not Mormon Fundamentalists. We just want to be able to live our religion. My religion does not include abuse! (It buggs me that i have to put this disclaimer in everytime i post, thanks FLDS!)
I would not classify OTS as a faithful FLDS, he doesn’t represent the thinking, mannerisms, or theological views of all the “faithful” I am associated with. Even though I don’t agree with all that the FLDS faithful believe in, I still have a pretty good understanding of what they think and believe.
As far as what the "faithful" think of 9/11: most of the ones I know think it was a conspiracy by our government to get us into a war. The ultimate goal of this war is the "New World Order."
For me, 9/11 was a day of awakening to the power of what "cults" will do in the name of the "lord."
I don't know where you get off defining the flds members as a "cult".
We have NEVER advocated violence,nudity,evil doings etc...
The faithful, (Those who are led by a good spirit, ALWAYS)have always striven to do all they could to keep peice within themselves, as well as those around them.
Where do you get off comparing us to the terrorists that were involved in the 9/11 attacks.
The Lord himself has always encouraged LIFE and BUILDING UP ONE ANOTHER. It is the Devil, and his "imps" who have always encouraged DEATH and DISTRUCTION.
I am not "ots". I read the ? that one of you posted for him.
I too feel like it was something that our "gov." set up to justify the laws that were passed to take more of our GOD GIVEN RIGHTS away.
Just take a look aroud you and just about everywhere you look now days, there is hardly a thing you can do without involving some "RED TAPE".
"We have NEVER advocated violence,nudity,evil doings"
Cults don't necessarily go about naked in sex orgies. Get on the internet and read the defining characteristics of a cult, and you will see all elements are there. Information control? "Don't talk to apostates; all they do is lie. Don't believe the media lies. Go by the feelings within or you will be deceived." Behavior control? "You can no longer be married to this woman. Don't work for that individual, he is apostate" Though control? "If you even allow a doubt about the prophet to enter your mind, you will eventually apostatize" Emotion control? "Don't see your children that are apostate"
Cults aren't necessarily bad or destructive; many cults are benign, and some may even do more good than harm by giving followers a purpose in life.
And to anon 1pm : First of all, The flds in Ut/Az HAVE been identified as a CULT.All of the earmarks are there.Just as Furnace has stated. Secondly, Do you honestly believe that Warren was living YOUR lifestyle while on the run? I don't think so. He was drinking and partying at every pre determined stop on his flds tour.And finally, about 9-11. How dare you?! Do you HONESTLY think that our govt. put terrorists on planes and then told them what and who to destroy? That is ridiculous. And, just so that I make myself VERY clear, I do not think that Bush is doing anything good for our country and if we could impeach him I think that we should.But still, I do not trust many in D.C and I still don't think the war was warrented. So, before you start making accusations like you have been, do more research.
I'm glad I asked the question, and I'm glad someone other than OTS answered it - although I'm suprised. I honestly didn't anticipate that response - it wasn't even something I considered - EVEN from OTS.
IITMOC and anon who answered honestly - thanks.
So, the belief is that the US government set up the 9/11 disaster in order to gain more control over it's own citizens, and the world.
loiitmoc- I am very sorry to say it, But you are NOT FLDS faithful. You should change your pen name to CGMWTLHI-'can't get my wife to lose her integrity'
anon 9/11/2006 1:00 PM -
RIGHT ON! I agree 100%! Glad to be on your team! You can use my pen name anytime.
Anybody else wonder why building 7 collapsed? Why NORAD wasn't even in the sky for over an hour? Over Washington DC? Why there was simulations of the exact situation that very morning? How it was that FEMA was already set up the day before? Why the military was already ammasing troops and bombing Afghanistan the days before? Why the 9/11 commission was not even formed for over a year after? But the 700 page Patriot Act was passed in emergency session within days?
Atari- the belief that the government has much to hide concerning 9/11 is widely held inside and outside the FLDS. It is not unanimous inside the FLDS either. But it is easier to mistrust the government when a man as innocent as Warren Jeffs can be on their 10 most wanted.
furnace- the Bible is a book all about people who lived in your definition of cultism. The word " cult" is harmless, unless there is harm to people. It is the anti-cult that is un-American.
Firstly, oddly enough NORAD's deputy commander-in-chief's name is Findley.
Norad has been on a mission to counter the threat of bomber and missile attack for over 50 years.
9/11 happened in the middle of Norad's shift change, and just prior at 7AM they had been running exercise maneuvers.
They way they looked for air traffic as threats was from the scope of looking OUT from North America - not from within. They rely on the US air traffic control system and the FAA to tip them to demonstrable internal threats.
The attacks unfolded too fast for civilian officials to grasp what they were dealing with.
At that time, what they had planned to do if ever there was a hijacking situation, was just to escort the plane, which would land somewhere and demands would be issued.
Also, in all the confusion, officials tagged more than two dozen airliners that didn't respond to identification requests as potentially hijacked, including a flight to Washington that originated in Canada.
They had only 14 fighter jets at their disposal for the purpose of escort.
A Fema Task force was not in place on September 10th. The fema task for arrived from Massachusets on Tuesday evening, the leader of that task force was at home in Cape Cod on September 10th.
I believe the 9/11 commission was formed to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding 9/11, and to guard against future attacks. Given it's significant importance in investigating one of the most important events in American history and providing recommendations to defend the US against future terrorist attacks I'm CERTAINLY glad they didn't do it in two days. Some have compared the Commission to that of the Warren Commission of 1963-64 in its mammoth global and national significance
The patriot act was formed in response to terrorist attacks, it has been used to detect and prosecute terrorism. It deals with immigration laws, banking, money laundering etc.
But, you can find all the schpeels out there which you rambled off above on any urban legends site, or mass email.
You must also believe these other important things:
1. You must no longer drink Coca Cola, because it can remove toilet stains.
2. You must no longer drink Pepsi or Dr. Pepper, since the people who make these products are atheists who refuse to put “Under God” on their cans.
3. You must no longer drink ANYTHING out of a can because you will get sick from the rat feces and urine.
4. You must no longer use Saran Wrap in the microwave because it causes cancer.
5. You must no longer check the coin return on pay phones because you could be pricked with a needle infected with AIDS.
6. You must no longer use cancer-causing deodorants, even though you smell like a water buffalo on a really hot day.
7. You must no longer go to shopping malls, because someone will drug me with a perfume sample and rob me.
8. You must no longer receive packages from UPS or Fed Ex, since they are actually Al Qaeda in disguise.
9. You must no longer shop at Target, since they are French and don’t support our American troops.
10. You must no longer answer the phone because someone will ask you to dial a stupid number, for which you will get the phone bill from hell with calls to Jamaica, Uganda, Singapore, and Uzbekistan.
11. You must no longer eat KFC because their chickens are actually horrible, mutant freaks with no eyes or feathers.
12. You must no longer date the opposite sex because they will take your kidneys and leave you taking a nap in a bathtub full of ice.
13. You must no longer buy expensive cookies from Neiman Marcus - you now have their recipe . . .
14. You wouldn’t dream of going to the aid of a baby left crying next to your house after dark because it is undoubtedly somebody luring you to unlock your door so as to rob/molest you.
15. You must now forward ANY/ALL e-mails that mention faith/God/angels . . . whether in good taste/true or not, to prove that I’m not ashamed to do so - and would certainly do so if it were simply a joke . . .
16. You must no longer worry about my soul because I have 363,214 angels looking out for me—and St Theres’s Novena has granted my every wish!
17. Thanks to us all you have learned that God only answers my prayers if you forward an e-mail to seven of your friends and make a wish within five minutes. (The BIBLE did not mention it works that way, so you didn’t know!)
18. You must no longer have any savings because you gave it to a sick girl/little boy who is about to die in the hospital (for the 1,387,258th time . . .).
19. You must no longer have any money at all, but that will change once you receive the $15,000 that Microsoft and AOL are sending me for participating in their special e-mail program.
Yes, thank everyone SO much for looking out for you! You will now return the favor. You must send this e-mail to at least 1,200 people in the next 60 seconds to receive a quarter from each of them, . . . or a large bird with diarrhea will fly slowly back and forth over your head at 5:00 PM this afternoon.. I know this will occur, because it actually happened to a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of my next-door neighbor’s ex-mother-in-law’s 8th husband’s 2nd cousin’s 3rd husband’s ex-wife’s mother’s tennis instructor.
Atar! That comment about Findley... It was the missing link in all of this. Warren Jeffs/John Findley. Don't you see the connection? Warren was behind the 9/11 attacks. It is too much coincedence that he would use the Alias so closely tied to that terrorist attack. This just proves that the government was involved. Why else did the FBI never arrest Warren? Warren is one of those in full control of this entire conspiracy. Do you see it now? You have uncovered the whole plot. You should start a massive e-mail campaign to alert all the patriots in our country. We cannot stand back and watch our country taken over by the likes of Warren. Get after it girl!
I am sorry to disagree with the perception of privacy as a God Given right. Just like the freedom to speak, to worship, the sanctity of the home, to publish just what you would like, to disagree with government and officials at any level. All these and other "rights" are NOT God Given. These rights were bought with the blood of patriots who have lost their lives and given of time and limb in an effort to prevent those from without our nation from rescending these rights.
I do not see it as an impeadment upon my right of privacy if my telephone conversations or any conntribution I may make through e-mail or even this blog is considered for the possibility of it being a part of a conspiracy to enable terrorists who, when given the opportunity to do away totally with those rights bought with the blood of our citizen soldiers. If one intercepted phone call between a known terrorist and an individual who is perhaps a part of a "sleeper" cell within our borders will assist in apprehending the parties and cutting off the serpent's head before it strikes, so be it.
If you have nothing to hide, what do you fear? Terrorists, fifth columnists, or what ever you call groups or individuals dedicated to the overthrow of an established government thrive where the people are more interested in largesse from the government and protection of their presumed rights, which they have done nothing to win nor protect.
I can't stand the fact that my conversations are recorded, or that my email/blogging/browsing is being watched.
I understand why it's happening, and how we got to the place where people wanted it, but I think we should revisit it.
Personally, my conversations aren't that exciting, my blogging, browsing likewise - and I STILL DON'T THINK IT'S RIGHT.
It's really not about the content - it's about the government overstepping the authority it was given by the constitution and the bill of rights. Yes, we want to be protected, but at what price.
To be the most protected - we all need a chip, anyone who doesn't have a chip is taken to jail and implanted, all data is stored on the chip, and everytime we pass a checkpoint our chip is noted, and we can be tracked by GPS at any time during the day. All communications and purchases could be achieved with this chip - they just scan me at the grocery store, I get cash back, and I push a button and tell my husband to preheat the oven when I'm driving home - I don't even need a purse.
DO I WANT TO LIVE LIKE THAT - HELL NO!
Would that complete control over citizens make me safer - YOU BETCHA. BUT I STILL DON'T WANT IT.
So, WHAT ELSE can we do to keep ourselves safe from those who would do us harm? We can employ more people to enforce the law, be a presence in target areas, answer phone calls.
We can pay a bit more in taxes to help our enforcement agencies to communicate with each other better, and identify criminals by using newer technologies, we can also educate individuals.
There are a lot of things that we can do - they involve sacrifice (probably financial) but not our own personal liberty and privacy.
You, me, and a host of others have attempted to instruct our little momonette regarding the basic facts of life, but to no avail. He/she/it dwells in a foggy bottom named 'I know it all and have no need for further knowledge' and therefore cannot comprehend that there ARE rudiments concerning the facts of life, as his posts suggest that he is bereft of, that he doesn't seem to be able to grasp. If sheer ignorance is bliss, he's on a space walk.
Perhaps he ought to run over to Vegas ask a gentile call girl to teach him. He obviously doesn't know how he came to be, and if the whole kit and kaboodle of them are as ignorant as he and believe themselves conceived by immaculate conception, as he continually affirms, then they too must dwell in the same foggy bottom as he.
We mere mortals who profess that Christ is Lord are not well enough informed to be able to give instructions. Word of instruction via written communication. I have no desire to engage in any hands-on instructive sessions with the "Great, I know it all'. Talk about yuk!!!!
No, I suspect that Atar_i has had a real education, not one force fed to her from infancy by a society whose mind is like concrete, all mixed up and permanently set.
I suspect that she has had many opportunities to make important decisions and judging by her responses on this blog I'll bet that she has been right on target the majority of the time.
Too bad you weren't so fortunate street! You have no knowledge of real love, for man or for GOD. Your love is self directed. You do not demonstrate an ability for compassion, only blind obedience to an incarcerated demigod, a thief, a sexual pervert, a sodomite, without natural affection, perfectly described below.
Romans 1:22-32
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible GOD into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of GOD into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the CREATOR, WHO is blessed forever. Amen.
For this cause GOD gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of GOD, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgement of GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
LOL - I hate MLM but I confess - I have purchased some skin care products recently from one - I'll let you know if my face feels more invigorated and moist.
I wish my job was that flexible - When I said meetings I meant 'board meetings' (and other meetings of that nature) - not 'how to sell makeup to your neighbor' meetings.
6:42 here. Muggsey, I didn't intend to bash your religion or even religion in geneal; sorry it came out wrong. You know within yourself whether or not you are honest with your follower's tithing or not. I was referring to Warren, Jimmy Swaggard, and others who abuse religion for money.
Okay, I'll accept that. I don't handle tithing. All finances are managed by elected laypersons. We have an elected finance committee, a bookeeper and a treasurer to take care of those things and report monthly. For a check to be valid it requires two signatures.
Swaggard or Jeffs types would be out in the street the first time that they tried to interfere. Our ministers, pastors, preachers, or what ever your term may be are called to preach and teach from the WORD, period.
Lust and romantic physical attraction differ in the fact that Lust has no specific object of intention nor any care, hope, love, or affection for it's object. Don't confuse the two, as you have so frequently done in the past. You simply have never experienced true love for anyone except yourself, your own hand, and Warren Jeffs. Your affection for children falls under the category of lust.
OTS quote "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh".
You do realize you speak filthy and disgusting in many of your posts. Just walk up a few posts and you'll see your most recent foray into the perverted.
So I guess you have spoken the condition of your heart with your own mouth.
oh my goodness .. thats all i read .. sex.. rape...molesting.. being forced into a marriage. dang it.. there is more to being a polgamist. its not all bout sex. however, you all make it seem that way. if a girl under the age of 18..wants to marry or become a sister wife, which by the way , from the time they are toddlers they are taught, thats what they are to do, then so be it . allow her to do what her faith has to say bout it. also.. legally.. a man doesn't havew more then one wife. he has a lot of mistress/conbines. its a marriage of faith. nothing down legally at the courthouse. so no one should have a dang thing to say bout how many women he sleeps with in a week or however long. another thing, i have to commend the men that actually have more then one wife who has children. he takes care of them. provides them with food, clothing and a roof over their heads. tell ya what.. there are alot of men in texas, that were married in front of a judge.. that are dead beat dads. they pay no child support. polgamist/lds/mormons raise their children to have very high morals. to wait.. to follow the path that has been laid out before them. one they have the right to refuse. however, they don't. their faith in their god is strong. why.. good family values. about the boys being dumped in the desert.. i think we can call that b.s. if my son.. did not want to follow the rules of the house.. did drugs.. stayed out all night long and did all that other junk.. he would find himself setting on the curb. its called tough love and a parent has to do that in order to give the other children a non chaotic home. my children knew that if they screwed up and didn't wanna follow the rules of the house.. they could take their happy hinies on down the road. however,,...they also knew.. i would be there for them if needed. its called tough love.
103 comments:
Well considering Colorado City and Hildale are in different states then I'd say you have too many to name.
I'm not sure the names should be posted here at all but sent directly to ATAR_I if possible to protect these people from even more harm. And perhaps, ATAR_I, you could post some idea of what steps you are prepared to take to ensure this and why you are trustworthy enough to handle the info before someone gives any information. If all that happens is their names get passed to the wrong people, they will be worse off than ever.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8063292/
Watch these video's in this order. Funny stuff seeing the UT AG get his hat handed to him by Tucker Carlson of all people.
Jefs overrated on FBI list?
What's wrong with polygamy?
I can't believe I'm polygamist and actually saw these on a TV that I don't own because I'm so sheltered and deprived.
A Congressman wants this information, and so I thought I'd ask on the board, and submit what came my way.
I am checking into a way for individuals to get this information more directly to the person who wants it. I will check back.
Anyone who thinks this is not religious persecution ARE LOST!
If Polygamy was not required by our religion, we would not try to live it. End of STORY
IF Polygamy was not against the obviously UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, then you could get all the information that you desire about who married who, when, and even speak to them about whether they were "forced" or not. BUT it IS against the law, END of story.
“Jane Doe” wants to make sure that everyone knows that it is not about religion. Who is she kidding? “Jane Doe” and the state of Utah contend that Warren Jeffs “forced” her to have sex. How did he force her? In what way was she forced? How was she threatened?
Was she threatened with monetary fine? NO
Was she threatened with imprisonment? NO
Was she threatened with bodily harm? NO
Was she threatened with death? NO
She was told that if she did not stay married to the man she said “I do” to, then she could lose her ability to procreate IN THE NEXT LIFE. What a threat! She was told that she might not be able to be something that no other religion believes is attainable anyway!
Now If that isn’t religious I don’t know what is.
I KNOW that she is MORE “forced” to make this complaint, than she ever was “forced” to get married!
And this is the STRONGEST case against Warren Jeffs? And he was on the FBI top ten “most wanted”? HELLOOO, anybody in there McFly?
Same lies of forced marriage, welfare fraud, and abuse as were claimed in 1953. The funny thing is THOSE ARE AGAINST OUR RELIGION TOO!
CTR
"...I can't believe I'm polygamist and actually saw these on a TV that I don't own because I'm so sheltered and deprived..."
well, if that were the case for all of them
then wj probably wouldn't be in the mess that he is
C.C. would practically be unheard of
and we would care less about all of them
very much in the same way
...we could care less about you
keep sweet eldorado
stg
oh and PS to Atar_i: ...you go girl
keep sweet eldorado
stg
The name of the Congressman interested in this information is Trent Franks, 2nd District of Arizona.
I think they have a large list going already, but if you have information to contribute - I found the contact information on the website. I do not have the contact persons name, however I'm certain if you wanted to send an email or phone him - you could be directed to someone who could take that information
http://www.house.gov/franks/contact.shtml
Those videos are great. Thank you for the link.
If you believe that the law prohibiting polygamy is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, you have the right to challenge it's consitutionality in the courts. Put up or shut up!
and on the same bases; I am a fundamental mormon. I came from a long line of Fundamental Mormons. In truth my roots go back to Adam. And he had more than one wife. So did Abraham, Issac and Jacob. So in your own words; Put up or shut up! and like one poster said,"we could care less about you" why, then waste your money time and energy on a battle you will not win? and multiple wifes is not illegal. the law agaist it is.....
CTR
Nice try, but polygamy (or plural marriage if you insist) is not on trial here. Marrying underage girls which is against the law, against the teachings of former leaders and against common sense is.
It's not my point to prove. It's the law of the land. Jesus said yield unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's. The law of the land is ('Caesar's) concern. The name Caesar equates with whatever government is in power, anywhere you live. Polygamy is outlawed within the United States of America. Practice polygamy and you are subject to the laws that prohibit it.
My point AGAIN is this: If you don't like the law, you are guaranteed the right to challenge it in court.
I don't think people/media/politicians/law enforcement are specifically interested in adults, they are more interested in the children.
In order to protect the children, they have to deal with what the adults are doing or allowing to be done, to the children.
Children, are not possessions, they are citizens, and are entitled to equal protection under the law.
Parents, are usually the people making sure that their young children receive this protection. For some reason, some parents have allowed, encouraged and even participated in situations which are vicitmizing young citizens of the US.
Thus far, a spotlight shined on this activity has done nothing to halt it. So the long arm of the law is finally saying 'no more'.
FLDS is not the only community or religious group that has problems in this way. The large welfare communities and low income housing areas in metropolitan areas have problems with parents not adequately protecting children according to the law, and involvement with law enforcement is quite common.
These parents, have a community of individuals from similar circumstances, but are all functioning independently. If there was a 'head guy' for these communities, bringing young folks in and arranging for them to be victims of crimes - he'd be held responsible as well.
If those 3-4 years before a girl becomes an adult, and legally able to consent are that important to the men of the community they need to be aware that they could sit in jail.
If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene.
If young boys aren't dumped in the middle of the desert and abandoned prior to their 18th birthday, there will be no legal reason to intervene.
Just a couple small modifications, and everyone is a consenting adult.
Of course the welfare fraud will probably end up being addressed if the taxpayers realize what they are paying to support polygamists who claim they are married but 'declare' they are single.
The police officers not upholding the county/state laws will have to be addressed.
The theft of property will have to be addressed.
But those are problems that are local, and dealt with at a local level, they won't incite the ire of the populations not directly affected by them like the children do.
St. Matthew 5:24
...but whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
anon 1:25, tell us what you really think.
mugs- The law was challenged back in 1879, and the Supreme Court ruled that it was "constitutional" based on the theory that they had to have some control on religion, or else there would be people who commit human sacrifice in the name of religion. WHICH IS BOGUS. That equates the family of Jacob as inhuman as the murderous priests of BAAL!
Congress should make no law against the FREE EXERCISE of religion. We will live by the constitution, and the bill of rights, and NOT by unconstitutional laws. Our CREATOR gave us this right, NOT the government.
fttc -NICE TRY, but it IS about religious polygamy. How many teenage mothers among monogomists have older men being charged with rape SOLELY on the fact that the girl was under 18? NONE!
Haven't you noticed that a judge was debarred, and that policemen were kicked off the force, not for police or judicial misconduct, but for the SOLE reason they had more than one wife!
atari said-
"If everyone can wait a couple years, there's not a problem, and no reason for the law to intervene."
Make the girls wait, big deal. BUT the LAW that put Rodney in jail is a Utah state law that was not passed until 2001; AFTER his marriage was performed. That law states that no girl can get married under 18 to a man that is 10 years her senior WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Is this law against underage sex? NO! Only MARRIAGE! Why wouldn't a judge give permission? How did this become a law? (hint: anti-polygamy)
How about Kelly Fischer? would he have been convicted of anything had it not been for polygamy? OF COURSE NOT!
About Welfare "Fraud". Where is it? Why has no one in the FLDS been charged with it? Isnt it rampant as you say it is? OBVIOUSLY NOT. More lies piled on lies.
About boys being dumped in deserts. BOGUS! IF your son refused to live by the rules of the home, refused to come home at night, and ran away often, what would you do? Think hard. These boys wanted to leave, and they were obliged. I'll bet you nickels to $20 bills that every single one of them (who want to) still have contact with their parents, who love them very much.
THEFT OF PROPERY? HELLOOOO? Who did the property belong to? Who do 99.9% of the FLDS people want controlling the property? (I'll give you a hint it's NOT Bruce Wisan)
All of these "so called" crimes, including polygamy, are not the goal of ALL of you who want to destroy the FLDS. The great crime that you want to stop, is the crime of holding and obeying what we know are Gods law's above man's laws.
Of course you will never admit that will you?
CTR
Yes, polygamy is outlawed in the USA. BUT REMEMBER! It only became outlawed, WHEN Joseph Smith began to live it.
It was not outlawed BEFORE that time. SOOOOO!!! it was the evil minded men that came up with this law, to trap those that was living it.
It's the same thing today. The (evil) men and women of todays society, who want to do away with people living moral clean lives, decided to craft a law that would entrap our prophet, and those supporting him.
Be as it may, Uncle John Y. Barlow said, the day would come when evil men would creat laws to harm us. He said "The laws they create against is, will be for us. And the laws they create for us will be for us." You figure this one out yourself's. I understand it, do you?
Heber C. Kimball said "A Test, A Test, A Test is coming, and WHO will PASS the Test.
I pray that I can.
It would take us through a great test, but in the end, those that made the laws, would entrap their own selfs. Happy Living With Yourselves,
:)!
CTR:
Let's assume the following is fact:
1-The prophet and only the prophet speaks for the Lord (one man rule).
2-The prophet is the only person living who can receive revelation on who should marry whom.
3-Whatever the prophet seals (marries) on earth is sealed eternally in heaven. Whatever the prophet releases (or dams)on earth is eternally released in heaven.
4-A woman must be sealed to a man holding the Priesthood to avoid being destroyed in the next life.
5-A woman will only have access to her children in the next life if she is sealed to a priesthood man.
Now, if a woman or girl believes all the above to be undisputable truth, it is a lot of "force" when the prophet threatens a woman or girl with eternal damnation if they don’t "strictly obey" every "revelation" or word of council he gives them. For lack of a better term, it is mental blackmail.
IITMOC
CTR
I noticed you did not address the fact that these underage marriages that warren, and Kelly, and Rodney are being/have been prosecuted for were done against the counsel of the two former administrators. If our people had kept this counsel and lived our religion we would not be in this mess at all. The promise of the Lord to stand in our defense would still be in effect. The media would not be giving air time to the anti-FLDS and LE would still be too busy with other things to notice. It was the departure from the truth that brought all this upon us and now you.
What's the difference, sacrifice to virgins Baal or virgins to sex maniacs. I see little difference between the practice and worship of Diana, Aphrodite, Venus, or Asharah. These religions practiced open sexual acts between citizens, both male and female, and temple prostitutes. FLDS prostitutes it's children to lascivious behavior.
IITMOC
I believe that you are on the right track. These 'Celestial' Marriages, at the Prophet's will are simply an extension of the control system that permeates the strength of this cult's leaders, (profit) through priesthood. How very sad.
idiot's
hey ah CTR
maybe you're unfamiliar with the term
"No means No"
anything thereafter is called
"Rape"
subsequent "threat" or "force"
not required
keep sweet eldorado
stg
Sex maniacs?!! And Who has a "NAKED" Woman on the front of ALLMOST every magazine printed.
I say that the non-flds population is the SEX MANIACS. They can't sell anything without having a "naked" women do the selling for them.
We are taught from our youth to cover up our bodies.
I told my husband "for your eyes only".
You would not catch me going around advertising what I have. Everyone allready knows what I have.
All women have breasts, why show them off.
You call us sex maniacs!, there's hardly a movie, magazine, billboard, that does not advertize some kind of sexual scene on it.
You will not find this in the flds lifestyle.
Muggsey,
I think it is wrong to classify all FLDS or polygamists as "sex maniacs". I would venture to say many if not most of them are much more conservative in the sexual lives than the majority of the population. Sex, as taught in the FLDS is for procreation, not recreation. It is a gift from the Lord, and like any gift there will always be those who abuse it.
IITMOC
I agree with anon 7;19
CTR - it's nice to see a response like yours, it helps see how it feels to be on the other side of the dispute.
I'm certain you look at my posts and say 'what is she thinking', and that's how I feel with yours often times. But that last post, I got a glimpse into the feeling of persecution you have as a member of a polygamous sect.
I don't agree with it, but I can see how you got to that opinion.
I have heard other groups claim that all of their problems are because of prejudice - not becuase of their actions. They wear certain clothes, have certain jewelry, talk certain ways, but somehow everything negative that happens to them is because of the color of their skin.
They view everyones reaction to them through that filter. On some occassions they might be right, but on most occasions, peoples responses to them have nothing to do with the color of their skin, and more to do with their personal interactions, how they conduct themselves, and other things they have control of.
I doubt the dress codes for most public schools ever thought they would be addressing the issue of showing ones underwear - and so school dress codes have been refined to now address the problem of showing 6 inches of underwear. No one thought it would be a problem, thus, it was never addressed. It's not meant to persecute teenage boys, but to ensure all conform to a certain standard of decency.
Anyhow - NOT everything is because of polygamy. some things are...just what they are.
And, occassionally you will find a young girl who has sex with an older man consensually (Joey Butafucco) but it's still not OK, and he went to jail for having sex with that 16 year old girl.
When an adult female (Mary Kay Letourneau) had sex with a young man, who claimed it was consensual - she went to jail (twice).
Those are just a couple of examples (using them because you might have heard of them). People are always outraged by adults having sex with minors. Polygamy, the age of the partner, the stress on reproduction, the lack of education, the pressure to become intimate by the church and the family are just icing on the cake - and make it all the more outrageous to most adults.
It is only when the rights of the child are violated that you will find the sort of heat your situation generates.
And, I CAN understand what it is like to live with an unruly child - I'm not certain any ones erudition on this subject equals mine. I did it - and since you have 'all these mothers' to help - you should be able to, and should be EXPECTED to. Not all children come out obedient and easy, you're the parent - YOU FIND A WAY.
another little clarification CTR
FLDS don't kick out their kids for being unruly
anymore than the rest of us.
They kick out their kids
when they're told to.
unruly or not it's not their decision.
keep sweet eldorado
stg
I stand by my earlier statement regarding that FLDS male population is made up of sex maniacs. What valid reason can be given for polygamy than to ensure in the extended families of each male that there are not at least one or two marriagable aged girls. These girls are chattel in a swap-off with other priesthood members so as to guarantee a ready supply of "fresh" meat to satisfy those men's desire for "young-'uns". This whole idea of a Celestial kingdom is not disimilar to the Islammic idea that if you are martyred in a jihad you will be immediately transported into heaven and supplied with X # of virgins, for your pleasure.
Since those who dwell in heaven are spiritual beings, and there is no giving or taking in marriage in heaven, what purpose does this practice serve except to satisfy the sexual appetite of earth-bound sexual perverts.
As for magazine covers, you'll have to be the expert in that area. This is not to say that I am not tempted by photos of nearly nude young women, I would be lying if I made that declaration. The difference here is between a person being 'tempted' by and 'succumbing' to participation in seeking out those pictures simply for the 'kick' of stimulation. I don't subscribe to any magazines nor buy them off the shelf. Why? I simply think to do so is a waste of money.
Mugs,
You have the right to your opinion, but I strongly disagree and think you are way of on this one.
Many, if not most of my fellow FLDS brethren that have more than one wife did not wed young, and never desired underage girls for their plural wives. Now, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but I do know the men well, and I know my own desire to have more than one wife. Sex (particularly with young girls) was not the reason, eternal salvation was. You of course come from a different background and will not see this because you don't have the same background as I do.
Do I enjoy sex? That is a dumb question, it is one of God’s gifts to man, but I have been taught and believe that it should be carefully moderated. Do I live for sex? No, it is a bodily appetite that should be controlled. Just like eating is an appetite that should be, but often isn’t. You can’t say that just because a few around me abuse their food intake, that we are all now gluttons can you? Do I desire sex with young girls? No, that is sick and wrong and is one of my reasons I question the underage marriages that have happened. You can’t judge all from the actions of a few.
Keep in mind Muggsey, us mortals see the world and others not as they are, but as we are. Maybe I'm an eternal Polyanna, but I try to see the best in others, and view others through the prism of my own beliefs and values.
IITMOC
Think of it this way.
In a class room, it is very difficult to teach the class when one or two students (male or female) decide to show off, mouth off, make statements and disrupt the whole class.
The teacher has no alternative but to send the student/s to the principal.
When it happens again, and again, and again. Eventually the student/s are evicted from school. So that those who want to get their education, and govern theirselves, can and will.
It's the same way with these so called "lost boys" they know what happened. They just will not tell the whole truth.
In the home, when the parents are trying to raise their children to have a clean moral life. If one of the children in the home (an older son or daughter) who brings (drugs,filthy cd's,pitcures,language,dress,etc...) into the home and introduce it to the other children in the home. The parents, (flds or non-flds) have the right to remove this harmful situation from their home, in order to preserve the other children in the home.
THIS IS NOT THEIR FIRST OPTION. THEY ASK THE CHILD/REN, TO REMOVE THIS HARMFUL STUFF, AND LEAVE IT ALONE. THEIR PARENTS ASK THEM,PRAY FOR THEM, DO ALL THEY CAN TO HELP THEM CHANGE THEIR WAYS.
But after so many askings,pleadings,praying,etc.. those child/ren who refuses to change, they are asked to leave the home, so that those children who are still young, can grow up without that (evil) influence.
Beleive me I know, I went through it with my older children. don't think it is easy having your child, son or daughter asked to leave their home and community. But in order to have that influence out of the home, this is what happened. And it is what happened to all of those young boys/girls that were asked to leave.
News articles scoff about "male compition" What a joke. If these young adults were to change their ways and repent of the evils that crept into their lives, they would be invited back rejoyicingley(sp?).
These boys/girls know this, but they have let an offended spirit take over them. And it dosent help when someone else wispers into their ears that they are a (pour picked on soul). They know what to do, now it is up to them.
Muggsey - You have stated your religious belief of the hereafter:
-Since those who dwell in heaven are spiritual beings, and there is no giving or taking in marriage in heaven
Fundamentalist Mormons believe differently. Okay?
I can count on 2 fingers the number of women I've had sex with which surpisingly is the number of women I'm married to. That is kind of strange considering I am a sex maniac as you put it. I also love both of them. I am capable of loving more than one person.
Smuggsey I will tell you there are easier, cheaper, less stressful ways to have sex. I choose a lifestyle that is alot of work. For me it is a labor of love, but it's not cheap, it's not easy, it's not one big sex romp. It's about relationships, children, creating a good environment for my family to live.
So for your homework, muggsey, I want you to count the number of sexual partners you've had and how many of those partners your in a life long loving commitment with. Can you be intellectually honest enough with yourself to do this?
With that I'll go, but before all the winners out there throw out there usual comebacks and flames, I'll say this. I abhor abuse! Flora Mae was abused and it is the most ungodly thing to do to another human being. If children are being abused, neglected, molested, raped, ect. then I want to see the abuser in jail. With that said, marriage between consenting adults (however brainwashed you think they are) is just fine. Now flamers, notice I said adults. Those are people who are 18 years and older. As you can tell I'm not affiliated with FLDS, so you can't use that flame either.
So good luck, enjoy your witty comeback and be clever and original. You can do it, I have faith in you.
FLAME ON
Speaking of the issue of state lines, because it could not be determined in which state were the crime happened, a jury in Arizona found one of the FLDS men on trial NOT GUILTY, Donald Barlow walked out of the corthouse a free man.
Read Newspaper Article
Prosecutors in the Warren Jeffs trial better have their ducks in a row because Warren Jeffs has the money to buy the best defense attorneys around, an could like this FLDS man walk out the door a free man. Scary though, but it could happen.
Anon 10:41
You have given what I believe is the logic behind a lot of the teenagers being asked to leave. There are other alternatives that would be far more helpful to these children. Law enforcement provides avenues for helping parents with unruly children that cannot be handled by the parents. Uncle Roy told parents to turn these children over to the law in many cases that I know of and the parents would not do it. To say that a child must be put out on the street to find his/her own way back is to shirk the responsibility that we have as parents. There are better ways than to let these unmanageable young men and women drown in their alcohol and ruin themselves with drugs.
I feel like you are right, they should be turned over to some program that can help them.
In my case, one son left on his own, but not after a lot of turmoile. I am still working with other children in the home who have been influenced by him as well as others in the home. Three more were asked to leave, but they had a place to go.
IITMOC; 10:41; monogamistarsilly;' fttc (indirectly) & annon. 12:53 (indirectly)
fttc & 12:53 - I can't help but wonder that if there was total unity within a family perhaps strife would be reduced. I know that this is true in monogamous families. Not all monogamous marriages are happy, many are not, so please don't think that monogamy in and of itself is the issue. I know that polygamy was practiced by some in the Old Testament. We have examples of several polygamous relationships where there was conflict. Sarah and Haggar were at odds. Even the sisters Leah and Rachel demonstrated jelousy. Without perfect people, and I am not acquainted with a single one, no union can be perfect. But, according to Matthew 19:4-6 & 1 Cor. 7:2 KJV, God's ideal was not polygamy but monogamy.
Matt. 19
4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5. And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6. Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
1 Cor. 7:2
2. Nevertheless to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
As far as belief in three heavens, I agree, just not in the same way.
Firstly, I see the heaven under which we live, our atmosphere, stratosphere, inner space.
Secondly I see the reaches of space, as far as the eye can see,or outer space.
Both these 'heavens' are the creation of God for our wonder and amazement. Our understanding is limited by the vastness of space as is our ability to comprehend it's depth or God's power to create such.
Thirdly, I believe in the fact that being in the presence of the Lord is considered the ultimate heaven. I believe that when I surrendered 'self' into the Lord's care and trusted Him as my Savior I was was immediately granted access to that Most Holy Place through the presence of the Holy Spirit dwelling within me. At that moment I entered eternity. I dewll there now.
Yes, one day my earthly life will end, but at that point I will pass from this carnal life, through the gate of human death into the eternal presence of my Lord. Death into Life Everlasting. Do I totally understand this concept? No, and I doubt that anyone who claims to have all the answers knows as much about that "peace that passes understanding" which I and many fellow Christians possess.
With the coming together of two, a man and a woman, male and female, as one flesh, a human life comes into existance. We understand the scientific principles of conception but, there are those who, fo one reason or another can't concieve. If we are unable to do so we ponder the value of our life. I don't find anywhere that the Lord loves us any less because of this inability. I do believe that such a situation is a test of the individuals faith. One of our duties as humans is to procreate. I can find no reference in the word of the Lord proclaiming that human life will be repeated.
Luke 20:34-36
34. And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
I appreciate your candor and the thoughtfulness given to your replies to my previous post. If the post does not fit your siuation it was not meant for you. I can't judge the individual, but I can inspect the fruit, just as you are able to do. And the Lord said, "by their fruits ye shall know them."
May God bless each of you in your continuing search of His truth.
Mug,
Nice dodge by the way. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ring a bell? Abraham was God's beloved. He walked and talked with God, wouldn't God have told him to stop this horrible practice?
The reality is no is coming here looking to be converted either way. You and OTC can cut and paste scripture back and forth all day and it won't change anyones mind.
Perhaps what can be achieved is an honest search for what our lifestyle is about. You could do better trying to understand it. Legalize plural marriage and you can begin to regulate it. It will open up these societies which will allow more scrutiny. The problem is it is illegal in American in 2006 to be married to more than one consenting adult at a time. They won't prosecute you for it but yet they keep it illegal? If you aren't going to prosecute it then legalize it. It would make it easier for the government to prosecute welfare fraud, child abuse, etc.
Muggsey have you got your homework assignment done? You never responded to my question I'll repost it below.
So for your homework, muggsey, I want you to count the number of sexual partners you've had and how many of those partners your in a life long loving commitment with. Can you be intellectually honest enough with yourself to do this?
The only reason i want you to answer it is because you call us sex maniac or something of the like.
UH Hum! NOT ALL families that are flds have multipule ladies in the family. Some not a lot only have ONE (1) Wife for the moment. UNTILL designated by the Lord.
So even a single Husband/Wife Family has strife with children that choose to do differently.
Uncle Warren NEVER said "dump your children on the streets ".
He said have them "go repent from afar". If they really want this lifestyle, they will do all within their power (including the lord of course) to make their way back.
Uncle Warren expect's each one of us to be so inspired, that we will seek unto the Lord for direction and guildance in these matters.
If that means HELP your son/daughter find a place to live out in the world, by all means help them.
Can you for a minute immagine the Lord saying to a faithfull person " because you helped your son/daughter find a place to live when they were asked out, last year, ye are damned!".
NO! the Lord himself said " I am the same yesterday,today, and forever."
He is a God of mercy,Love,Justice, etc...
10:41
What was your childhood like? Did you parents help you through a rebellious streak? I know the name of one of the twelve high and holy who had a porno problem in his younger days, but the father helped him through it. Was he kicked out?
It's my understanding (from watching the news) that the "rebelliousness" of one lost boy is simply that he wanted a public education instead of priesthood school education; not all cases are drugs, alcohol, etc., but can you blame the children for getting involved in these vices? We eliminate all avenues of recreation that helps divert those things; very little for sports or other forms of recreation that is so necessary to keeping children away from these vices. My own brothers have been forbidden to even ride bicycles or fly kites in an open field (they have to do it at home)! It's no wonder children are getting into vices. Quit juding the "lost boys" and start admitting the cause of the illness.
P.S. I don't think a public school teacher can expel a student on a whim because they were disorderly.
Muggsey,
When I click on a thread, it brings up the tail end. As I read backward up to where I last checked in, I often think you are OTS until I get to the first paragraph.
Two unarmed people in a duel; they are going to be fighting a long time.
face it guys; there are none of you that have had only one woman. And there is honor in taking care of your woman.
Face it guys. Look right in the mirror and face yourselfs with the truth. And since none have but one wife legally the government is up a creek.
About children who bring drugs, photos, turmoil into the home. The teacher will ask the student to leave the class - but the school district has other alternatives for that child - different structures that work for troubled children (AND THIS IS JUST THE SCHOOL DISTRICT - NOT THE PARENTS).
I mentioned earlier that I had experience with this. I took in a child who was not mine. I can tell you that I experienced all manner of turmoil - not only his, but the turmoil that was attached to him.
I had three young children in my home during all of this. Those were the hardest years of my life. We were it. If we didn't care for this child, no one else would. And if I didn't try absolutely every option to save him from himself, I couldn't have lived with myself.
That's what GOOD parents do. And, if after everything you still find that you cannot have this child in the home, THEN YOU FIND ANOTHER HOME, or another SAFE place for your child.
If I can be honest with Christ why can't I be honest with myself? Jesus knows all my shortcomings and has forgiven each and every one.
If I have answered to Christ, I have answered to the Highest Authority and owe neither you nor any man a recounting of my shortcomings. I respect my feminine friends to the point I would not compromise their reputation. Christ knows what has happend in my life and in the lives of all with whom I have associated through the years, that is all that matters.
I know, beyond a shaddow of doubt that when I stand, as all Christians will do, before the Judgement Seat of Christ all my sins will be confessed but, I know that I have been washed in the cleansing Blood of the Lamb and will be told to enter into the joy of HIS presence.
I do not cut and paste. Each scripture is researched and copied directly from the Bible. Personally I think that the KJV is antiquated and that versions in modern English give a better understanding of God's word. Even the New KJV is far superior to the 1611 version. Why? Firstly, Jesus did not speak King James English. The main reason is the updated language. Many of the phrases and words used in the KJV are no longer in common use. I prefer the NIV or the NASB. Both are scholarly works, translated from the oldest manuscripts by not just one but a host of scholars. Not only theologians but scholars familiar with Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic contributed to the translations. These translations were not completed in a few months, but required years of intense study and comparison before they were finally committed to the final edition of the aforementioned translations.
I quoted from the KJV because I know that LDS advertise that they will provide anyone who asks a free copy of the KJV. What is not told the viewer is that the edition is as abridged by Joseph Smith, a semi-literate, totally unfamiliar with any foreign language, more especially Reformed Egyptian of which no one has found anything that remotely could be considered as having come from such an imaginary hoax. Papari, reported by Smith as being in the same language was translated by Egyptologists and found to be ancient writings concerning embalming and burial, not to be associated with books of Abraham or Moses or "The Pearl of Great Price."
Another fact is not mentioned in the commercial: That the free KJV will be delivered by two young men, riding bicycles, wearing black suits, white shirts and black ties. They are not told that they will be offered a "Second Revelation of Jesus Christ", Joseph Smith's much desputed and unsubstantiated "Book of Mormon." They will also not be told in the commercial that these same young men will attempt to tell the people who called that this second book is superior to the first.
With so much subtrifuge demonstrated by LDS and the recent revealing of the duplicity of the great and faultless Prophet Warren Jeffs, who makes strict rules but won't follow them himself.
I rest for now.
Anonymous said...
Mugs,
You have the right to your opinion, but I strongly disagree and think you are way of on this one.
Many, if not most of my fellow FLDS brethren that have more than one wife did not wed young, and never desired underage girls for their plural wives. Now, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but I do know the men well, and I know my own desire to have more than one wife. Sex (particularly with young girls) was not the reason, eternal salvation was. You of course come from a different background and will not see this because you don't have the same background as I do.
Do I enjoy sex? That is a dumb question, it is one of God’s gifts to man, but I have been taught and believe that it should be carefully moderated. Do I live for sex? No, it is a bodily appetite that should be controlled. Just like eating is an appetite that should be, but often isn’t. You can’t say that just because a few around me abuse their food intake, that we are all now gluttons can you? Do I desire sex with young girls? No, that is sick and wrong and is one of my reasons I question the underage marriages that have happened. You can’t judge all from the actions of a few.
Keep in mind Muggsey, us mortals see the world and others not as they are, but as we are. Maybe I'm an eternal Polyanna, but I try to see the best in others, and view others through the prism of my own beliefs and values.
IITMOC
Is this why Sam Barlow, Sam Roundy, and many others have such a fat gut?
MonogamistareSilly said...
Mug,
Nice dodge by the way. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ring a bell? Abraham was God's beloved. He walked and talked with God, wouldn't God have told him to stop this horrible practice?
The reality is no is coming here looking to be converted either way. You and OTC can cut and paste scripture back and forth all day and it won't change anyones mind.
Perhaps what can be achieved is an honest search for what our lifestyle is about. You could do better trying to understand it. Legalize plural marriage and you can begin to regulate it. It will open up these societies which will allow more scrutiny. The problem is it is illegal in American in 2006 to be married to more than one consenting adult at a time. They won't prosecute you for it but yet they keep it illegal? If you aren't going to prosecute it then legalize it. It would make it easier for the government to prosecute welfare fraud, child abuse, etc.
9/08/2006 3:25 PM
Your comment is interesting because the polygamists I know want decrimilization instead of legalization. They INSIST upon this distinction. That is a BIG deal to them - the legal difference between the 2 - legal vs. decrimilization.
Why are you pushing fot legalization? I want to understand both sides of the "legal" battle.
Anonymous said...
Uncle Warren NEVER said "dump your children on the streets ".
He said have them "go repent from afar". If they really want this lifestyle, they will do all within their power (including the lord of course) to make their way back.
Uncle Warren expect's each one of us to be so inspired, that we will seek unto the Lord for direction and guildance in these matters.
If that means HELP your son/daughter find a place to live out in the world, by all means help them.
Can you for a minute immagine the Lord saying to a faithfull person " because you helped your son/daughter find a place to live when they were asked out, last year, ye are damned!".
NO! the Lord himself said " I am the same yesterday,today, and forever."
He is a God of mercy,Love,Justice, etc...
9/08/2006 5:44 PM
I disagree with you here. These young men were NOT asked "go repent from afar". They WERE run out of town and dumped on the streets to fend for themselves.
This in nothing but child neglect and child abuse and the parents need to be held accountable for driving their children out of their homes.
If your God won't protect them, then the Law will.
This behaviour MUST stop. And if it doesn't, then people WILL be held accountable!
One answer to the fear of AIDS and Sexually Transmitted Diseases by men with an overactive libido:
POLYGAMY
Anon 9/08/2006 5:44 PM said
Can you for a minute immagine the Lord saying to a faithfull person " because you helped your son/daughter find a place to live when they were asked out, last year, ye are damned!".
Yes I can imagine just that. Because it is what Warren did to me an my family. The Lord did not say this. The Lord did not require this. Warren Jeffs said and required this or we would be damned if we did not do this.
It appears tht ots is attempting to impress any who will read his rambling incohearent postings. Since, of late, he has been refering to his frequent request of answers from God that maybe he is making a pitch to replace Warren as top dog. Those of you who think Warren a despot, what would your world be like were ots assume control. Not only would you be force fed innumerable rules but would have to listen to his "super-ego superiority" complex rant and rave about concerning the colors, shapes, numerology, cross referencing one letter to another or taking a single letter or sylable of an english word and attempting to give it spiritual significance.
OTS
1. Yuk
2. What if a girl doesn't start menstruating until she turns 16?
7:06
Would you please inform me as to who I have been with and when I cheated on my wife, since you seem to know more about it than I do.
OTS is a mumbling bumbling freak. I am amazed at the vomit he spews.
OTS is somewhat like a bad weather man. You know he is way off, but you cant help watching (or reading) what he has to say...and then end up feeling embarrassed for him.
Vomitboy
Richard Wright Warren Jeffs Attorney of, one in the same with the sexual predator who molested and killed a 7 year old girl in the Nevada Primm casino bathroom. Tells ya a little about who is willing to crawl down in the mud with Warren! What is this telling the faithful that he could only obtain an attorney that defends pedophile baby Killers?
LAS VEGAS (Court TV) — The murder of 7-year-old Sherrice Iverson in a casino bathroom in 1997 set a new standard for outrage and shock in Nevada, a state built on the gaming industry. The Los Angeles native had been sexually molested and strangled in one of the glitzy, busy casinos the state is known for, and the public wanted swift justice.
They got it, it seemed. Eighteen-year-old Jeremy Strohmeyer, a casino patron from Long Beach, Calif., confessed to the murder, pleaded guilty and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
MIB
The situation of needing a list has been addressed thanks to those that contributed.
MIB
Does OTS understand authorities will use his explanation of his understanding of the FLDS doctrine to convict Warren Jeffs? With OTS help 5 to Life may be life in prison and if 12 years old is fair game, OTS may one day be in a padded cell next door. They can play checkers through the bars and watch each others back, when "bubba" comes visiting.
MIB
I fear your forcast could very well become fact. I am and have been opposed to abuse of children, both boys and girls since I first appeared on this blog. My concerns have not ceased with the apprehension of Warren Jeffs.
It may be harder now for the fathers to market their daughters and the elders to get the pick of each litter, but I fear that a way to circumnavigate the prophets binding ceremonial weddings may be found by those vile enough to continue the practice.
Although I do not endorse the practice of polygamy and abhor the results, as recorded by those individuals who are brave eough to face absolute ex-communication. With the practice being entered into by consenting adults I find the practice less objectionable. With children, however, I find the practice despicable.
Once again I must state that I, and most other hard working Americans, despise the way plural wives are portrayed as destitute single mothers in order to raise cash to fund the various bands of polygamists. The lengthy history of violence against those human beings both inside and outside the cult does not recommend the lifestyle you choose to live.
I still believe that public trial, maybe with the security afforded Adolph Eichmann during his Isralli trial, is in order for Jeffs. He needs to answer to his people and to the citizens of this country whom he has defrauded. The nation needs to be exposed to the extremes which Jeffs was able to implement during his active rule.
Apprehending the carismatic leader of the largest single known cult in the United States is noteworthy. The leaders of the Branch Davidians, Jonestown, and Heaven's Gate were such cowards that they took their own lives to prevent having to face public outcry. If Warren Jeffs achieves the same goal, will his sheeple be right behind him in his footsteps of self destruction?
Bubba's violence, in the penitentiary, is not the answer to Warren Jeffs. He is too frail and physically incapable of withstanding that kind of abuse. That sort of action would take care of the immediate problem, and satisfy revenge motives but would also serve to make of Jeffs a martyr.
How can those FLDS who are have been cast outside the boundries of the elect stand by and allow their families to be once again victimized by a now impotent despot? Do they not possess any self-respect? Would an attempt to rescue their family be met with armed resistance? Are Jeffs lieutenants powerful enough to think for themselves?
Jeffs rule has obviously been largly one hoax following another. He has established for himself numbers of devoted diciples who have been so browbeaten and brainwashed that it is extremely difficult for those of us on the outside to understand that kind of unrelenting suffocating control.
He travels about the country in Cadillacs, visits vacation places that most of us just dream about, carries enough cash with him for most of us to clear our indebtedness, pays no taxes, makes no real contribution to society, answers to nobody and still the contributions roll in.
To quote Shakespeare's Hamlet, "Something is rotten in Denmark."
hey streety. if you think Warboy's lips were parted at his capture. just wait till He's in prison
face it guys; there are none of you that have had only one woman. And there is honor in taking care of your woman.
Face it guys. Look right in the mirror and face yourselfs with the truth. And since none have but one wife legally the government is up a creek.
Excuse me you are painting with a mighty broad brush are you not.
I have had sex with only one woman
the one I have been married to for 22 years
Quietman
OTS,
Since you are so good at defining words for all of us, I have a definition for you.
FUN (to enjoy).. DA (duh)..to be stupid… MENTAL (as in retarded or impaired)
Street I echo the sentiment Yuk, I'm not the one chomping at the bit to get these girls harvested - you are.
Their not mature enough, physically in 4th grade to be a mother (and yes, for some it starts that early). And some are late bloomers in 10th grade.
But, I can tell you, by the age of 18 - not only is it assured that they are somewhat physically mature, they are also legally mature - and can do as they please.
If you want to fight over a few years, potentially lose everything for a few years with a young maiden - be prepared. There is nothing forcing you to have sex with her, but there IS a law that states you can't (or anyone else).
Besides, it sounds like your just trying to subdue overcurious, disobedient, or anxious girls - not have some spiritual experience. It's all about control (why does that NOT suprise me).
OTS - what do the faithful FLDS, like yourself think of 9/11?
Muggsey -
If I have answered to Christ, I have answered to the Highest Authority and owe neither you nor any man a recounting of my shortcomings. I respect my feminine friends to the point I would not compromise their reputation. Christ knows what has happend in my life and in the lives of all with whom I have associated through the years, that is all that matters.
You say this and i get the answer i'm looking for. You are however, correct, if you lived a lifestyle or had indescretions and have repented and do them no more, then you should take courage in your life and live every day to the best of your ability. Oh, by the way, I like the newer translations of the bible to, it's fun to read.
Onthestreet - At first i thought you were joking, but you aren't and some of your rantings are very disturbing. You must not have any daughters or you are truly sick. It's people like you that give Plural Marriage a bad name. I wish you'd stop trying to defend sex with a 12 year old and start seeing how you can fix abuse, neglect, etc in your own community.
atar - I'm not faithful FLDS, but i think 9/11 was a tragedy. It is always a tragedy when innocent people lose their lives. Also along those lines, the real fundamentalist that the government needs to be worrying about are the ones that want to kill non believers that of course being, Islamic Fundamentalist not Mormon Fundamentalists. We just want to be able to live our religion. My religion does not include abuse! (It buggs me that i have to put this disclaimer in everytime i post, thanks FLDS!)
I better go, i'm starting fights with everyone.
atar_i,
I would not classify OTS as a faithful FLDS, he doesn’t represent the thinking, mannerisms, or theological views of all the “faithful” I am associated with. Even though I don’t agree with all that the FLDS faithful believe in, I still have a pretty good understanding of what they think and believe.
As far as what the "faithful" think of 9/11: most of the ones I know think it was a conspiracy by our government to get us into a war. The ultimate goal of this war is the "New World Order."
For me, 9/11 was a day of awakening to the power of what "cults" will do in the name of the "lord."
IITMOC
I don't know where you get off defining the flds members as a "cult".
We have NEVER advocated violence,nudity,evil doings etc...
The faithful, (Those who are led by a good spirit, ALWAYS)have always striven to do all they could to keep peice within themselves, as well as those around them.
Where do you get off comparing us to the terrorists that were involved in the 9/11 attacks.
The Lord himself has always encouraged LIFE and BUILDING UP ONE ANOTHER. It is the Devil, and his "imps" who have always encouraged DEATH and DISTRUCTION.
I am not "ots". I read the ? that one of you posted for him.
I too feel like it was something that our "gov." set up to justify the laws that were passed to take more of our GOD GIVEN RIGHTS away.
Just take a look aroud you and just about everywhere you look now days, there is hardly a thing you can do without involving some "RED TAPE".
I like that, 9/11 should wake up the powerful of the scarry cults. Interesting viewpoint anon, ignorant and misguided, but interesting.
"We have NEVER advocated violence,nudity,evil doings"
Cults don't necessarily go about naked in sex orgies. Get on the internet and read the defining characteristics of a cult, and you will see all elements are there. Information control? "Don't talk to apostates; all they do is lie. Don't believe the media lies. Go by the feelings within or you will be deceived." Behavior control? "You can no longer be married to this woman. Don't work for that individual, he is apostate" Though control? "If you even allow a doubt about the prophet to enter your mind, you will eventually apostatize" Emotion control? "Don't see your children that are apostate"
Cults aren't necessarily bad or destructive; many cults are benign, and some may even do more good than harm by giving followers a purpose in life.
anon 9/11/2006 1:00 PM,
Where did I say the FLDS were a cult? You drew that comparison all by yourself. But as one put it: "if the shoe fits, it may be your own."
IITMOC
Well said Furnace!
And to anon 1pm : First of all, The flds in Ut/Az HAVE been identified as a CULT.All of the earmarks are there.Just as Furnace has stated. Secondly, Do you honestly believe that Warren was living YOUR lifestyle while on the run? I don't think so. He was drinking and partying at every pre determined stop on his flds tour.And finally, about 9-11. How dare you?! Do you HONESTLY think that our govt. put terrorists on planes and then told them what and who to destroy? That is ridiculous. And, just so that I make myself VERY clear, I do not think that Bush is doing anything good for our country and if we could impeach him I think that we should.But still, I do not trust many in D.C and I still don't think the war was warrented. So, before you start making accusations like you have been, do more research.
I'm glad I asked the question, and I'm glad someone other than OTS answered it - although I'm suprised. I honestly didn't anticipate that response - it wasn't even something I considered - EVEN from OTS.
IITMOC and anon who answered honestly - thanks.
So, the belief is that the US government set up the 9/11 disaster in order to gain more control over it's own citizens, and the world.
Is that correct?
Can I ask how this opinion came to be accepted?
loiitmoc-
I am very sorry to say it, But you are NOT FLDS faithful. You should change your pen name to CGMWTLHI-'can't get my wife to lose her integrity'
anon 9/11/2006 1:00 PM -
RIGHT ON! I agree 100%!
Glad to be on your team!
You can use my pen name anytime.
Anybody else wonder why building 7 collapsed? Why NORAD wasn't even in the sky for over an hour? Over Washington DC? Why there was simulations of the exact situation that very morning? How it was that FEMA was already set up the day before? Why the military was already ammasing troops and bombing Afghanistan the days before? Why the 9/11 commission was not even formed for over a year after? But the 700 page Patriot Act was passed in emergency session within days?
Atari-
the belief that the government has much to hide concerning 9/11 is widely held inside and outside the FLDS. It is not unanimous inside the FLDS either. But it is easier to mistrust the government when a man as innocent as Warren Jeffs can be on their 10 most wanted.
furnace- the Bible is a book all about people who lived in your definition of cultism. The word " cult" is harmless, unless there is harm to people. It is the anti-cult that is un-American.
CTR
Firstly, oddly enough NORAD's deputy commander-in-chief's name is Findley.
Norad has been on a mission to counter the threat of bomber and missile attack for over 50 years.
9/11 happened in the middle of Norad's shift change, and just prior at 7AM they had been running exercise maneuvers.
They way they looked for air traffic as threats was from the scope of looking OUT from North America - not from within. They rely on the US air traffic control system and the FAA to tip them to demonstrable internal threats.
The attacks unfolded too fast for civilian officials to grasp what they were dealing with.
At that time, what they had planned to do if ever there was a hijacking situation, was just to escort the plane, which would land somewhere and demands would be issued.
Also, in all the confusion, officials tagged more than two dozen airliners that didn't respond to identification requests as potentially hijacked, including a flight to Washington that originated in Canada.
They had only 14 fighter jets at their disposal for the purpose of escort.
A Fema Task force was not in place on September 10th. The fema task for arrived from Massachusets on Tuesday evening, the leader of that task force was at home in Cape Cod on September 10th.
I believe the 9/11 commission was formed to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding 9/11, and to guard against future attacks. Given it's significant importance in investigating one of the most important events in American history and providing recommendations to defend the US against future terrorist attacks I'm CERTAINLY glad they didn't do it in two days. Some have compared the Commission to that of the Warren Commission of 1963-64 in its mammoth global and national significance
The patriot act was formed in response to terrorist attacks, it has been used to detect and prosecute terrorism. It deals with immigration laws, banking, money laundering etc.
But, you can find all the schpeels out there which you rambled off above on any urban legends site, or mass email.
You must also believe these other important things:
1. You must no longer drink Coca Cola, because it can remove toilet stains.
2. You must no longer drink Pepsi or Dr. Pepper, since the people who make these products are atheists who refuse to put “Under God” on their cans.
3. You must no longer drink ANYTHING out of a can because you will get sick from the rat feces and urine.
4. You must no longer use Saran Wrap in the microwave because it causes cancer.
5. You must no longer check the coin return on pay phones because you could be pricked with a needle infected with AIDS.
6. You must no longer use cancer-causing deodorants, even though you smell like a water buffalo on a really hot day.
7. You must no longer go to shopping malls, because someone will drug me with a perfume sample and rob me.
8. You must no longer receive packages from UPS or Fed Ex, since they are actually Al Qaeda in disguise.
9. You must no longer shop at Target, since they are French and don’t support our American troops.
10. You must no longer answer the phone because someone will ask you to dial a stupid number, for which you will get the phone bill from hell with calls to Jamaica, Uganda, Singapore, and Uzbekistan.
11. You must no longer eat KFC because their chickens are actually horrible, mutant freaks with no eyes or feathers.
12. You must no longer date the opposite sex because they will take your kidneys and leave you taking a nap in a bathtub full of ice.
13. You must no longer buy expensive cookies from Neiman Marcus - you now have their recipe . . .
14. You wouldn’t dream of going to the aid of a baby left crying next to your house after dark because it is undoubtedly somebody luring you to unlock your door so as to rob/molest you.
15. You must now forward ANY/ALL e-mails that mention faith/God/angels . . . whether in good taste/true or not, to prove that I’m not ashamed to do so - and would certainly do so if it were simply a joke . . .
16. You must no longer worry about my soul because I have 363,214 angels looking out for me—and St Theres’s Novena has granted my every wish!
17. Thanks to us all you have learned that God only answers my prayers if you forward an e-mail to seven of your friends and make a wish within five minutes. (The BIBLE did not mention it works that way, so you didn’t know!)
18. You must no longer have any savings because you gave it to a sick girl/little boy who is about to die in the hospital (for the 1,387,258th time . . .).
19. You must no longer have any money at all, but that will change once you receive the $15,000 that Microsoft and AOL are sending me for participating in their special e-mail program.
Yes, thank everyone SO much for looking out for you! You will now return the favor. You must send this e-mail to at least 1,200 people in the next 60 seconds to receive a quarter from each of them, . . . or a large bird with diarrhea will fly slowly back and forth over your head at 5:00 PM this afternoon.. I know this will occur, because it actually happened to a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of my next-door neighbor’s ex-mother-in-law’s 8th husband’s 2nd cousin’s 3rd husband’s ex-wife’s mother’s tennis instructor.
Atar! That comment about Findley... It was the missing link in all of this. Warren Jeffs/John Findley. Don't you see the connection? Warren was behind the 9/11 attacks. It is too much coincedence that he would use the Alias so closely tied to that terrorist attack. This just proves that the government was involved. Why else did the FBI never arrest Warren? Warren is one of those in full control of this entire conspiracy. Do you see it now? You have uncovered the whole plot. You should start a massive e-mail campaign to alert all the patriots in our country. We cannot stand back and watch our country taken over by the likes of Warren. Get after it girl!
That's why I adore you FTTC! I'll get on it right away.
I'm madly sending out a press release as we speak.
I'll have to charge for the email though - overhead (i.e. I need a new Escalade).
Warren is Bin Laden with his beard shaved.
I get so tired of people complaining about THE GOVERNMENT.
WHO IS THE GOVERNMENT?
LOOK IN THE MIRROR......DUGH.
If you never voted or held an office for NOTHING, don't complain. SHUT UP.
I am sorry to disagree with the perception of privacy as a God Given right. Just like the freedom to speak, to worship, the sanctity of the home, to publish just what you would like, to disagree with government and officials at any level. All these and other "rights" are NOT God Given. These rights were bought with the blood of patriots who have lost their lives and given of time and limb in an effort to prevent those from without our nation from rescending these rights.
I do not see it as an impeadment upon my right of privacy if my telephone conversations or any conntribution I may make through e-mail or even this blog is considered for the possibility of it being a part of a conspiracy to enable terrorists who, when given the opportunity to do away totally with those rights bought with the blood of our citizen soldiers. If one intercepted phone call between a known terrorist and an individual who is perhaps a part of a "sleeper" cell within our borders will assist in apprehending the parties and cutting off the serpent's head before it strikes, so be it.
If you have nothing to hide, what do you fear? Terrorists, fifth columnists, or what ever you call groups or individuals dedicated to the overthrow of an established government thrive where the people are more interested in largesse from the government and protection of their presumed rights, which they have done nothing to win nor protect.
I can't stand the fact that my conversations are recorded, or that my email/blogging/browsing is being watched.
I understand why it's happening, and how we got to the place where people wanted it, but I think we should revisit it.
Personally, my conversations aren't that exciting, my blogging, browsing likewise - and I STILL DON'T THINK IT'S RIGHT.
It's really not about the content - it's about the government overstepping the authority it was given by the constitution and the bill of rights. Yes, we want to be protected, but at what price.
To be the most protected - we all need a chip, anyone who doesn't have a chip is taken to jail and implanted, all data is stored on the chip, and everytime we pass a checkpoint our chip is noted, and we can be tracked by GPS at any time during the day. All communications and purchases could be achieved with this chip - they just scan me at the grocery store, I get cash back, and I push a button and tell my husband to preheat the oven when I'm driving home - I don't even need a purse.
DO I WANT TO LIVE LIKE THAT - HELL NO!
Would that complete control over citizens make me safer - YOU BETCHA. BUT I STILL DON'T WANT IT.
So, WHAT ELSE can we do to keep ourselves safe from those who would do us harm? We can employ more people to enforce the law, be a presence in target areas, answer phone calls.
We can pay a bit more in taxes to help our enforcement agencies to communicate with each other better, and identify criminals by using newer technologies, we can also educate individuals.
There are a lot of things that we can do - they involve sacrifice (probably financial) but not our own personal liberty and privacy.
.02
Well, I'm glad you don't have sex with children when they are pregnant.
Is that why they are perpetually pregnant?
atar_i:
You, me, and a host of others have attempted to instruct our little momonette regarding the basic facts of life, but to no avail. He/she/it dwells in a foggy bottom named 'I know it all and have no need for further knowledge' and therefore cannot comprehend that there ARE rudiments concerning the facts of life, as his posts suggest that he is bereft of, that he doesn't seem to be able to grasp. If sheer ignorance is bliss, he's on a space walk.
Perhaps he ought to run over to Vegas ask a gentile call girl to teach him. He obviously doesn't know how he came to be, and if the whole kit and kaboodle of them are as ignorant as he and believe themselves conceived by immaculate conception, as he continually affirms, then they too must dwell in the same foggy bottom as he.
We mere mortals who profess that Christ is Lord are not well enough informed to be able to give instructions. Word of instruction via written communication. I have no desire to engage in any hands-on instructive sessions with the "Great, I know it all'. Talk about yuk!!!!
Exactly what I expect from a pedophile.
ots - your disgusting.
Hollow as a dry gourd with as much life as a Texas Pecan tree leaf in January.
Symbolism = numerology = witchcraft
hocus pocus impregnation.
The expression of love between a man and a woman reduced to some perverted satanistic RITE!
Not intended to be a joyful union of male and female, allowing the two to become one flesh.
Do you sacrifice every tenth virgin to Molech?
I guess if you blow enough smoke some will become blinded.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm going to go with the scriptural definition of marriage and not ots's.
Everything word his little fingers type is dross.
Is this blog now going to focus on the FLDS turkey baster theory? Lord help us.
LOL - if I took apart your posts like that - (need I say more).
I suppose that might account for all your insensible ALL your hopefully unions will be.
No, I suspect that Atar_i has had a real education, not one force fed to her from infancy by a society whose mind is like concrete, all mixed up and permanently set.
I suspect that she has had many opportunities to make important decisions and judging by her responses on this blog I'll bet that she has been right on target the majority of the time.
Too bad you weren't so fortunate street! You have no knowledge of real love, for man or for GOD. Your love is self directed. You do not demonstrate an ability for compassion, only blind obedience to an incarcerated demigod, a thief, a sexual pervert, a sodomite, without natural affection, perfectly described below.
Romans 1:22-32
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible GOD into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of GOD into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the CREATOR, WHO is blessed forever. Amen.
For this cause GOD gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of GOD, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgement of GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
For all those who notice, I haven't been posting as much.
I try and get on to take a peek, but I'm working more, and have more meetings in the evenings as well.
Have fun, make sure to keep ots in his part of the yard, and don't let him near the little girls or boys.
Atari-
Just a heads up, MLM is less profitable than gambling.
LOL - I hate MLM but I confess - I have purchased some skin care products recently from one - I'll let you know if my face feels more invigorated and moist.
I wish my job was that flexible - When I said meetings I meant 'board meetings' (and other meetings of that nature) - not 'how to sell makeup to your neighbor' meetings.
Hey, MLM with worthless health powders or overpriced widgets is a lot more honorable profession than abusing religion.
It's entirely dependent upon which 'religion' you are considering as being bashed.
Name a few in question and I will give consideration to your hypothesis.
6:42 here. Muggsey, I didn't intend to bash your religion or even religion in geneal; sorry it came out wrong. You know within yourself whether or not you are honest with your follower's tithing or not. I was referring to Warren, Jimmy Swaggard, and others who abuse religion for money.
Okay, I'll accept that. I don't handle tithing. All finances are managed by elected laypersons. We have an elected finance committee, a bookeeper and a treasurer to take care of those things and report monthly. For a check to be valid it requires two signatures.
Swaggard or Jeffs types would be out in the street the first time that they tried to interfere. Our ministers, pastors, preachers, or what ever your term may be are called to preach and teach from the WORD, period.
No thanks, I'll skip the moist part.
I'm assuming you were getting disgusting and sexual again.
Any you are apedophile with lust in your heart.
repeat with correction of typos.
And you are a pedophile with lust in your heart.
the question remains unanswered, as is usual.
Lust and romantic physical attraction differ in the fact that Lust has no specific object of intention nor any care, hope, love, or affection for it's object. Don't confuse the two, as you have so frequently done in the past. You simply have never experienced true love for anyone except yourself, your own hand, and Warren Jeffs. Your affection for children falls under the category of lust.
OTS quote "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh".
You do realize you speak filthy and disgusting in many of your posts. Just walk up a few posts and you'll see your most recent foray into the perverted.
So I guess you have spoken the condition of your heart with your own mouth.
oh my goodness .. thats all i read .. sex.. rape...molesting.. being forced into a marriage. dang it.. there is more to being a polgamist. its not all bout sex. however, you all make it seem that way.
if a girl under the age of 18..wants to marry or become a sister wife, which by the way , from the time they are toddlers they are taught, thats what they are to do, then so be it . allow her to do what her faith has to say bout it.
also.. legally.. a man doesn't havew more then one wife. he has a lot of mistress/conbines. its a marriage of faith. nothing down legally at the courthouse. so no one should have a dang thing to say bout how many women he sleeps with in a week or however long.
another thing, i have to commend the men that actually have more then one wife who has children. he takes care of them. provides them with food, clothing and a roof over their heads. tell ya what.. there are alot of men in texas, that were married in front of a judge.. that are dead beat dads. they pay no child support.
polgamist/lds/mormons raise their children to have very high morals. to wait.. to follow the path that has been laid out before them. one they have the right to refuse. however, they don't. their faith in their god is strong. why.. good family values.
about the boys being dumped in the desert.. i think we can call that b.s. if my son.. did not want to follow the rules of the house.. did drugs.. stayed out all night long and did all that other junk.. he would find himself setting on the curb. its called tough love and a parent has to do that in order to give the other children a non chaotic home. my children knew that if they screwed up and didn't wanna follow the rules of the house.. they could take their happy hinies on down the road. however,,...they also knew.. i would be there for them if needed. its called tough love.
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