muggsey said...
I watched "Banking on Heaven" last night. I was impressed by testimony of victims. Those people did not imagine their predicament. I especially noticed the harassment and shunning of locals toward the film crew.
Do you think that by ignoring the problem it will disappear? Will it take extreme measures to correct the situation. The rest of this country want children to grow up without fear of abuse. Women the right to wait until they are physically and mentally mature to marry. Young men to have the opportunity to marry. A ban against any girl being forced to marry a man twenty or more years her senior. Each family unit to be self sustaining without governmental handouts. A severe penalty being imposed upon a man who engages in sodomy with young boys or girls and/or incest leading to the birth of a child born of a daughter being bred by her natural father.
8/17/2006 10:34 AM
Has anyone else seen the film? What did you think?
59 comments:
Honest.
The information was overwhelming - where do you start - it must have been a challenge.
Please know I am thrilled you made this film, I I enjoyed watching it. I saw it at in a room full of people, also watching it for the first time.
I thought the film jumped too quickly and didn't flow easily, little bits of information at lightening speed, and somewhat disconnected. That was my first thought after watching it (I've only seen it once - perhaps I should watch it again)
Parts of it flowed marvelously, but it needed some sort of focal point or something to give the viewer the picture taking them deeper and deeper into the story.
But I know nothing about editing and filming so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
One comment about the Bank of Ephraim failure. The FLDS alone didn't cause it to fail, and inside corruption alone didn't cause it to fail; it was a combination of both. Nothing was mentioned about the embezzeling.
It is a propaganda film to try to get people to hate the FLDS. The truth didnt and doesnt matter.
CTR
I agree with desert darling, Laurie, amde it sound as if she grew up down in Colorado City. Also, Warren was never a student at BYU.
One more thing, not EVERYONE of the women and children are victims. Some are happy in there own place. I only hope Warrens absence continues to allow cracks in the fear so many people have in being normal and happy like they once were
I just saw the film. And I want to say THANK-YOU. Thank you to those that were in the film and to those that helped make the film.
All of you should feel proud of yourselves for having a part in this.
Not only were your voices heard but the film allowed others to see that this is happening to very real people.
Some parts of the film made me laugh, other parts made me want to cry. And then there were parts that made me just downright angry.
Angry that anyone would want to hurt you. Angry that someone DID hurt you. You deserve better than that.
I've read about so many of you that I feel that I do know you. And then to see the faces. Ahh such beautiful faces. Faces that can touch so many so far away,
The smiles that could warm the coldest of rooms. Smiles that tried to hide the pain and hurt. Pain and hurt that should never have been put there. You deserve so much better than that.
There was a woman who spoke of having "such a thirst for knowledge". Talk about reaching in and grabbing on to the ol' heart.
Though many of you might not have finished your schooling. It is now that you are the teachers.
Many of us- on the 'outside' need/want to learn. We want to help. We want to have you in our homes. We want to have you for our neighbors. We want to have you for our friends.
There is so much to learn from this video and you folks were a part of it. And again I say THANK YOU!
Stand tall and proud and keep teaching. :)
Walton aka Cooper
I did not see the movie, but I do have one question. Has anyone even thought of investigating Ross LeBaron for incest? I personally know that he is MARRIED TO HIS OWN FLESH AND BLOOD DAUGHTER, AND HAS 3 CHILDREN BY HER!!!! He lives out on the dirt road that leads to the Coral Pink Sand Dunes, and if anyone did any DNA tests, it would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that he fathered his own grandchildren. He is not affiliated with the FLDS, so if this movie is to make only the FLDS look bad, then go ahead and leave Ross alone. But if true justice is to be served, then he should be investigated along with everyone else.
this film was a distraction from the truth. Laurie Allen is a liar. I am ashamed and dismayed i ever met her.
this film is not calculated for heroisim. I was a fool for ever talking to Laurie Allen.
I am a complete outsider, an Illinois Secularist Unitarian, I know many on this blog don't care about opinions of those who have never lived your lifestyle, so lets just get that out of the way.
My connection to any Mormondom is a boyhood friend, three listenings of the unabridged "under the banner" and a recent visit to Nauvoo(where I hope to return soon).
I bought the DVD, didn't know what to expect. It's good, bad, all over the place. I guess if you can't get any cooperation from these people, you don't have as good a story to tell about CC/Hilsdale. The recent Andersen/Cooper 360 was probably better, it was about an hour of finished product on CNN, and would present just as well in the theater with some editing.(it has a great segment of filming on the lot at the CC grocery store, then getting chased to the street. The customers were "intimidated" per the manager) I did like the inside the store shots at the grocery(in "banking"), should have got a shot of a lady swiping her state benefits card or signing a WIC coupon...
The pace of "banking" was quite jagged, its as if the subjects were skipped around, back and forth. It was confusing to me and I have followed this stuff for the last year. My wife hasn't and she was a little more lost.
Really though, the main indictments for me are the welfare theft(no buts about it), the child brides, and the coming "eldorado standoff", that will be this decade's waco, its really not about the polyamory, but you folks should have to pay your own bills.
I think the right mix of interviewees are included in "Banking", it just attempted to cover too much. "under the banner" on cd is 10 hours(if I recall). There is just too much there and "banking" should have been more focused.
and Laurie, like maybe some of you could have told the truth. I wish i had not ever met this film woman who lies because she thinks the public wants to hear this and who do you all think your kidding with your lies.....Laurie and her gig....i wish i had never met her....what a humiliation that was to me.......
and government decides government things just like any one else, so the media is full of lies.....And especially this film and this drinking film fool.
And believe me, i am still defending my Prophet. I may have lost some of my dignity to talk to Laurie and get caught up in her filthy lies, but i am still defending my prophet.......
To all you people out there in the real world who are so deeply offended by the "welfare fraud":
Most of the yowlers dont even know what welfare is about, not to mention the so called fraud. Mostly it is just a few pucilanemous self serving activist prevaricators makeing a bruhaha for fifteen minutes of fame. Investigate them!
You should start by educating yourself on the Federal Reserve System. Then do some serious research into what actually creates a welfare state.
Then realize that Food Stamps, and WIC funds are actually issued by the Government. They are a more ligitimate currency than what is in your wallet.
Then think about what these transactions do for the local economy. The one that makes it so you can earn all this money to pay taxes on and snivel about. You'll find that you are not being hurt by it; and maybe even benifited indirectly.
This idea that you are paying them to break the law is purely (speaking euphemistically) sensational mind numbing media hype . Sucker... you fell for that?!
Then go out and encourage everyone who can qualify for this "welfare" to do so, instead of sniveling about how you are being ripped off of your hard earned taxes. It only shows your ignorance of how YOUR own system works. Or you could spend your FED money on depleted uranium bombs, if that makes you feel better.
Then think about all the money that will be WASTED in persuing, persecuting, and prosecuting people for purely political reasons. Valuable time and resources wasted on people who are being hauled into courts without complaints, without witnesses, and in violation of the Constitution. People who for the most part are just trying to mind their own business. Be outraged about that.
If you have a real complaint. File it. If you don't shut up. And stop believing all this politcal media propaganda. Please.
Just some Food for thought.
EEEEEeeeeeewwwwwwwww!!!! Is that true about Ross LeBaron? How could Diana abide that? SICK! Has Ross ever been investigated? How could he fly under the radar in this big uproar?
This film stinks of Michael Moore type documentary! It is very misleading and uses incomplete interviews to portray something that was not intended.... Great Work GIZ. You just need to rename it fictional!!
Poster @ 8/19/2006 10:30 PM
Could you please explain what Laurie Allen lied about during the making of this film?
Walton aka Cooper
I thought Ruth was the most compelling. Firstly, I found her absolutely stunningly pretty. Everyone enjoyed listening to her talk, the way she spoke, the courage and pain.
I don't know what the above poster was talking about. In the version of the film I saw - she DID defend her prophet. If you didn't know her story from this blog, you might have been confused by some of her comments.
I think her storyline showed depth, and the quandry she was in. Abandoned at different times both by society and by family - still faithful - but smarter.
Ruth was amazing.
I know Ruth wasn't happy with how it turned out, I would really love to know what upset her. She was compelling, intelligent, persevering, basically a tower of virtue. After the film - all we could talk about was how to help get Ruths children back - who could help her?
Everyone at the screening I was in wanted her poetry, and wanted to send her money. I have said this before, I would love to hear Ruth tell her story. Perhaps, if only to set the record straight on her story.
I think we all interject ourselves into whatever we work on, so even though I heard Ruth tell her story, the editing (perhaps without even realizing it) changed it substantially enough for it to not reflect how she truly felt.
So Ruth, if you are listening, I would love for you to tell your story.
Ross LeBaron did no such thing. You must not know his family at all. I happen to know the lady very well and her children. Just because everyone doesn't live polygamy openly, as we used to. Doesn't mean that you can tell lies like that publicly. It is one thing to say "It is rumored...or I think" but to say that you know personally is disgusting (when it is a LIE)
So who want's their but kicked for starting such rumors.
Uhm, Peaches, dear...I don't think you know Ross's family like you think you do. I am sure that if he is so innocent, then he will not object to proving his innocence.
If I were subject to suspicion of wrongdoing against my own children, and it was a lie, then I would be pushing with all my might to prove that it was not true, wouldn't you? Especially in light of the investigation that is on all polygamists at this time!
So if this is not true, then he should be totally willing to prove to the authorities that he is not guilty.
I was a little harsh on the film, but it did need a clearer and more focused agenda, it was scattershot.
Ruth was amazing, beautiful, compelling. Nothing to be ashamed of, but the shame is probably coming from the neighbor's scorn. She only told her story, how can that be a crime. I guess silence and seeming harmony are what keep a community strong?
Take the title, which drew me in. If it is called "Banking on Heaven" make the film about the extortion of sex and harmony for salvation. Focus on that one thing. Don't even mention the bank or Eldorado or the public school's airplane.
I am going to share my DVD with all that will watch it. It was groundbreaking and an important first step.
Make more, when Eldorado hits Headline News every 1/2 hour, you'll need extra copies to sell.
Best Wishes Over the Moon.
Your overly harsh fan in IL.
atar_i
You had a part in this film? or the making of it? Can you go into detail?
I have some questions concerning some of the people that were in the film.
Should I ask here or do you know does Dot have another spot for us to ask questions/talk about the film?
Also I know that there must be a beginning to this blog which explains who, what, and why. But I can't find it. Can you point me in the right direction?
Thanks
Walton aka Cooper
anon. 12:46
The one basic difference between your thoughts concerning Lebaron's guilt and mine is this. "A man is considered innocent until proven guilty." Not the other way around. That is the reason that the judicial system of this country operates. I know that sometimes mistakes are made. The courts are operated by human beings who are subjected to making errors, just like you, me and everyone else.
By the same token, I would love to see Warren Jeffs face trial, to be convicted or acquitted of the crimes to which he has been charged.
Although he will tell his close followers that he is above the law, his day will come. It may not be in this lifetime, but at the end of recorded time he will answer and he won't have any choice in the matter. But, until that day comes, or sooner he is apprehended and brought to trial on earth, he is "presumed innocent until proven guilty." Trial preceeds sentence.
since you monator this web page and did not really put on what i said, then i shall just write to Atari. Maybe you could give me her email. I know she gave it to me before. This is the problem i had with the film; I told Laurie that i did not want to be remembered for the abuse that happened to me. I told her that i would not go up against any church. I told her that i was speaking out agaist abuse. I told her that i wanted to get my daughter. WEll, she put all the slander agaist my church. She recorded a lot of my songs and poems. i thought we were going to make honest money with this talent, and she was nice to me, until i talked about the abuse and then she used it to slander the man i love more than any other person in the world, because he is the one who stopped these men from abusing me. It was not the state........So if any oen is interested in my poems or songs i would be more than happy to provide these services. I can make up any thing of hte top of my head to fit any occasion.....And Atari, thanks for the vote of conficence.......i always promote the welfare of others by good and my songs and poems are good. i would love to get into this again. and as to getting my daughter back it is only aa matter of money........i have a heart condition and can not work. i could not hire a lawyer. i have a home and could take care of her. i have a truck. and what not......and public opinion is not against me like it was. Before i was only a retard because this man said and no one talked to me.....so the retard made public with songs...what joy and LaURIE betrayed me. She was screaming at me and saying whatt good has come from, your community in the last hundred years. i told her i did. i do not like drunk people screaming at me. and i did defend Uncle Warren in every aspect and abuse in my church is dispicable and there is no excusee for it. I was put away for what this man did to me, and there is justace sometimes........and no one talked to me. just a signed paper behind closed doors with out my knowledge or consent, and then he has me arrested for trespassing.....thank you again Atari for your kindness.......ruth
Cooper, I had nothing to do with making the film - that's giz. Perhaps some of my verbage (personalizing by using the word 'we' in my post when speaking of how
'we, as people' inadvertently change others testimonies in subtle ways that sometimes we do not even realize).
I hope Ruth gets this feedback. Please let Ruth know Giz.
See, Giz, that is my point exactly. All anyone is doing is accusing Warren, and so the proper authorities are investigating, as well they should. So should be the same for Ross. Yes, he has suffered some family tragedies of late, so has Warren. (His 2nd wife died of cancer not too long ago, his dad died, etc, etc. )So what? That should not stop someone from investigating the allegations.
I am friends with his sister, and she also confirmed that he has fathered children with his own flesh and blood daughter. Why do you think Diana has cancer? It puts a woman through pure hell to live like that.
What can they do to prove it? What do they do to prove any allegations like this? That is a dumb question. And if he is innocent, then he will be exonerated. That is how the system is supposed to work, anyway.
But if all this fuss is only to bring the FLDS under the gun, then MIB and Gary Engels and both attorney gernerals, and all the other investigators will just turn their heads. Personally, I like to think that most of them really want to see that justice is done, and they will look into these accusations. Wrong is wrong, no matter who commits it. And if by some miracle that these allgations are not true, then the investigators can put the lies to rest once and for all.
So are they investigating Ross? Have you made a complaint? Has anyone?
Ruth-
I know that you do not defend Uncle Warren because you are afraid of anything, some of us can see what you see. I know it is difficult. Heaven Bless you! Your Father and Mother in Heaven love you! LOOK UP!
Ok, Giz, if that is true, then why should they give a damn about Warren, for that matter? Is this whole situation strickly to pick on just the FLDS? I was under the impression that the whole issue at hand was to save underage girls, no matter WHO they are associated with, from being forced to marry (and/or have children) against their wills.
So, if what you are saying is true, then law inforcemtent should just back off of the FLDS as well, because it sounds like it is just a witch-hunt against Warren and his cronies.
You are not going to find any FLDS girls inside the flock that are willing to change what they believe, either. And what makes Ross Lebaron "outside" Gary's radar? What are the parameters of "Gary Engles' radar"? What is the criteria that make an incest situation "worthy" of being investigated? Please, someone, let us all know, so that we may determine whom (or not) we should report for committing crimes of this nature! (Is one of the main criteria that a criminal must be FLDS in order to be investigated for forced marrige or incest?)
C'MON PEOPLE!! WRONG IS WRONG, NO MATTER WHO COMMITS IT!! Am I the only person in the whole world that is outraged by this disgusting discrepancy?????
Anon 10:10
Has anyone made a formal report to LE concerning Ross? The first crime warren was accused of allegedly took place 12+ years before someone finally filed a complaint. That is what put him on the 'radar'. If someone filed a complaint against Ross perhaps he would be investigated?
Giz-I too am surprised by your admission of bias here. Or else I am misunderstanding you. Your post more or less admits of the bias in your film that you are being accused of on the blog. Do you really think LE is biased against the FLDS? If so did you include that in your documentary?
sockpuppet
I've lived in Schleicher County for nearly forty years and t my knowledge the School district nor the bank in Eldorado are under question. The school district does not now nor has it ever owned an airplane, nor is there a probability of one being bought in the near future. If such an item of business was reported in the "Eldorado Success", published weekly, their would be such a public outrage that the school board would back down from such a perposterous purchase. Now, I suppose that if an individual employee of the school system owned an airplane and he/she wanted to fly that plane to and from Austin, Dallas, Houston, or San Antonio on school related business, the cost of fuel would be re-imbursed.
The problems associated between FLDS funds banks and airplanes is in Utah and Arizona, not in Eldorado, Texas.
First off, Ross is in Utah, and Gary is an Arizona investigator.
Hey Muggsey, you're barking up the wrong tree, what sockpuppet was talking abou was a bank in Utah Eprahim Bank, and the Colorado City school airplane scandal. The mention of Eldorado is in reference to YFZ, not Eldorado, TX or Schleicher ISD.
and besides that, Gary Engles and every law enforcement agency in Utah and Arizonia know that Warren Jeffs is not quilty of any crime and they indeed do have a witch hunt on. And All these law men are as dishonest as a person could get.
On the Ross issue.
Yes, it's disgusting - and there shouldn't be bias. I've no erudition in these types of matters, but have managed to put a few episodes of 'Law and Order' under my belt, enough to make me wonder if it isn't just the 'process'.
I don't think they could compel a DNA sample, without probably cause - They must need someone to make a complaint and go on the record.
And for all that work, given the best case scenario what would they get him on?
What is the charge for incest if the girl states she was 'of age' and consenting?
If she wasn't of age, how much does that change the punishment?
I've no idea, but perhaps they are just trying to maximize their resouces and manpower and focus on something that they can make stick, and stick hard.
I don't know - I really don't - as it's not my area. I would love a criminal attorney or public official to comment on this.
oops 'probably cause' should read 'probable cause'.
Sockpuppet
I apologize. I mis-read your post. I read 'of' instead of 'or'.
Your intent was threefold:
1. The bank - I presume you mean the Ephraim bank
2. Eldorado - in reference to YFZ
3. airplane - in reference to the twin Cessna supposedly belonging to the school district but instead was used to shuttle FLDS leadership from place to place
Am I correct?
Well, let see, can Ross LeBaron be connected to one William Orsen Black? I believe he is wanted by the FBI?
arar_i,
I couldn't agree more with your comments about Ruth. As with the other women Ruth shows a beauty that isn't just at the surface.
I wasn't confused about Ruths feelings for the Church. What I was/am confused by is why she is still struggling with all the officials when trying to see her kids. She should not have to go thru any more.
When she spoke of finding peace in those mountains, I understood what she was saying. I lived in Utah years ago- before I knew what Polygamy was all about. Before I understood some of the secrets.
I often said that there were 2 magic men that lived in those mountains. One good magic man and one evil. The mystery surrounding the magic men is told in the History of Mormon Polygamy.
-----------------------
giz2gaz- I am curious about some of the people in this film. Ruths brother is one: It is obvious the love he has for his sister. He said he doesn't practice Polygamy. He seemed to be the most down to earth guy that I've ever read about while following these stories. What are his feelings after viewing the film?
I am also wondering about Warren Jeffs sister Elaine. What was the factor that made her leave the FLDS? I am also wondering about Warren Jeffs other siblings and his wives and children. If something happened to Warren would his eldest son become the Prophet? Or who is next in line to get the key?
I guess I have a lot more questions but will ask a few at a time. Sorry.
Concerning the title: I like it. It can mean different things to different people.
I don't know how anyone that watches this film could walk away untouched.
Sorry for such a long post folks.
Cooper
Correction: Ross LeBaron lives on the Arizona side near the border. So now what excuse does Mr. Gary Engles have? You said Ross is loaded with lots of money. Is that what it takes to keep the law off your back?
Cooper - your right - no one could walk away untouched. You walk away with questions, and slightly stunned.
Cooper - so tell us about your perspective - where are you coming from. Sounds like your from the area, but are you FLDS, or XFLDS, a neighbor?
atar_i,
No, I am not FLDS, XFLDS nor am I LDS. I am not even a close neighbor. But if I were, I would welcome all of you over for a visit.
When Mr. Bistline spoke of the raid in 1953 I could see that the memories still touched him and yet he was a young boy when that happened.
Memories last for a long time.
atar_i I think once you told me that you are the owner/operator of this blog. Is that correct? Could you point out which direction I could go to find out more about the blog and some of the people here? I am getting confused with all the Anonymous saids.
Thank you for providing a place for us to share.
Cooper
10:26 here, I was only aware of his home outside of Cedar City. I only met him two or three times, and he gave me such a headache listening to his theological views, that I couldn't get out fast enough.
Cooper, you give me credit for too much. I'm just a fellow blogger, but I've been here for a year or so. I might be able to answer a few questions, and stear you in the right direction for others. You can email me if you like.
I haven't seen the film yet, but I did read an article in a SLC newspaper about Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, who seems to be unhappy with Sheriff Doran & Texas Attorney General Gregg Abbott over handling of Jeffs investigation. From article: "He's got how many thousand acres down there and a sheriff that says he's not going to go in?" Utah Attorney General Mark said" Read rest of article: Jeffs in Texas?
IMO the Utah Attorney General comes down too hard on Sheriff Doran, he has kept the peace, helped prevent incidents by encourageing every one to keep calm, Sheriff David Doran has done a good job with a difficult-dangerous problem. there have been no violent incidents between people in Eldorado or Schleicher county and the FLDS. IMO Jeffs intends to cause a standoff, but Sheriff Doran has done a good job, so if there is an incident, it won't be his fault, it will be Warren Jeffs fault.
LE is going to have to have some pretty compelling evidence that Warren is at the compound before they would even think about going in there. They would have to be prepared to go into absolutely every structure and be prepared to look for tunnels and spider holes. Warren isn't going to be sitting on the temple stair just waiting for them to take him away.
Speaking of tunnels - I have heard that there are tunnels underneath CC/Hildale. Are there tunnels and if so, what are they used for?
ya, and i heard that the moon is pink. to 9;11 poster.
No tunnels. There's a cavern blasted into the rock above Uncle Freds place used for storage of food and necessities.
Is it just a coincidence that the tunnel quetion was posted at 9:11? There is a conspiracy theory about tunnels being dug by the government underground for people control purposes. Then there are the theories about the
'cave' mentioned. Then the theories about the twin towers. Is anyone else seeing a connection here?
I doubt it! Not that things don't happen right under our noses. But why would they go to such time and expense? What would be the point?
Everyone here has DARK tinted windows and BIG fences. They could get anyone from one place to the next without being seen without an elaborate tunnel system.
They do so many things at Dark. There is so much traffic at three in the morning they need stop lights and by eight o'clock there is just a few school buses and cars. At three in the morning there are diesel trucks and big work trucks and trailers all over town. They watch who is who and blink their headlights and the cops are all in on it and they kinda just block you in if you get too close to a "hot spot" Makes you wonder what they are up to!
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645196473,00.html
zig2zag: Ben has an article in todays paper about the film.
Ben is usually more aggressive in his reporting. His wings must have gotten clipped a bit after chasing the Hacking story.
I posted on another message board that your film was able to capture on film what words on paper have failed to do.
Your description of the title Banking on Heaven is exactly how I understood it.
Check your e-mail.
Cooper
I just hope that Julie Sydney Roth feels the heat a bit, too.
I hope Steven Moss feels the heat too. and why Laurie is getting glory for her traitorisim, I hope that Gary Engles feels it too. and jailing the woman Laurie? you are a liar and a traitor! what would you teach the children? to be like you? To drink and lie. I will not say the rest of your filth. I would give you a nick name; Flora Jessop the second. What about Justice for children? May you all feel the heat. I would never want to be like you and your dishonesty. and may you all feel the heat. intensly too. lies never did count for truth. and who really cared? none of you.
Who's Julie Sydney Roth ??? or Steven Moss ???
12:44 What do you think could be done to get justice for the children?
Questions:
Poster@12:44 Could you please explain your post. What was Laurie dishonest about?
Who is Steve Moss?
Who is Julie Sydney Roth?
What is a Gentleman's Ranch?
Thanks
Cooper
A gentlemans ranch is a small ranch, not big enough to be self sufficient, but large enough to have big animals etc etc.
atar_i
Well heck if that is what a gentlemans ranch is...
is the offer of sending you an e-mail still open?
LOL - what did you think it was???
atar_i@hotmail.com
my email is in my profile - you can feel free to email me any time.
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