Friday, August 04, 2006

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt on Polygamy

"God has told us Latter-day Saints that we shall be condemned if we do not enter into that principle; and yet I have heard now and then... a brother or sister say, 'I am a Latter-day Saint, but I do not believe in polygamy.' Oh, what an absurd expression! What an absurd idea! A person might as well say, 'I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.' One is just as consistent as the other.... If the doctrine of polygamy, as revealed to the Latter-day Saints, is not true, I would not give a fig for all your other revelations that came through Joseph Smith the Prophet; I would renounce the whole of them, because it is utterly impossible,... to believe a part of them to be divine--from God--and a part of them to be from the devil;... The Lord has said that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord;..."Now I want to prophecy a little.... I want to prophecy that all men who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness; the Spirit of God will withdraw from them the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent.... if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, pp. 224-225)

One can only conclude from this that the entire LDS church is in darkness. And going to hell and are damned.

20 comments:

TBM said...

One can only conclude from this that the entire LDS church is in darkness. And going to hell and are damned.

One can conclude a number of other things.

One can conclude that polygamy remains doctrinal in the LDS church. But it isn't practiced, since the world has such a problem with it. Come the Millenium, it will be permitted again.

I have a friend in Ohio who was married to his first wife in the temple, for time and eternity. After she died, tragically young, he married again, also in the temple, also for time and eternity. So, when they all die and go to heaven ...

Or one can conclude that since polygamy was only ever voluntary anyway, and was never the sole entire reason for existence that the FLDS have twisted it into being, it probably doesn't make that much of a difference anyway.

And you know something, Barlow? One can conclude that there's more important things in the world than running a human stud farm. Like charity, for example. Or not passing judgement on others. Remember that? Jesus talked about it quite a lot. I might totally disagree with Atar_i and Muggsey's religious views. But I prefer to remember they're my brother and sister in Christ, and assume they're probably humble, devout followers of God, rather than consigning them to hell.

Anonymous said...

Dear tbm,

Who is Jesus to you?

Anonymous said...

The Lord has said that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord;..."

Please where is this scripture?

Which Lord?

Anonymous said...

Hey, I believe in tithing but I'm not going to practice it until I die and go to heaven because my bills seem so hard to pay. Besides the fact everyone in my family has such a problem with it. We have a hard enough time as it is just keeping food on the table! And know way am I going to live polygamy! My wife would kill me!! I do believe in Temple Work but I miss so much of my favorite shows on TV. I'm just going to wait until the next life before I really do any of these things because my friends think I'm stupid. They say eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! Sounds good to me. I'll live what I believe in in the next life.

muggsey said...

I suspect that your attitude, which reflects that of most nominal church members of any denomination, is a prevelent amoung LDS & FLDS as it is anywhere else. Sad but true. Don't take taday's blessings if there is a remote possibility that they are available tomorrow.

With this philosophy, your plan is to continue through one existence after another, never meeting the standards set by the church. When do your opportunities to do it right end? Never? Think about it! Your soul being born randomly through eternity yet never really advancing because you possess the greatest tool Satan has at his disposal. "I'll wait until tomorrow." Tomorrow never comes.

TBM said...

Muggsey, I think Anon 10:13 was being ironic. He was probably trying to make a point. I'm just not sure what it was.

Who is Jesus to you?

Anon 6:31, I'm not entirely sure how to answer your question, since I have no idea where you're coming from or how much you know about Mormon beliefs. But if you're asking what Jesus means to me, I guess I'd have to answer "Pretty much what Jesus means to mainstream Christians".

He is the Savior, the Son of God the Father, who in fulfilment of the ancient prophesies, was born of the Virgin Mary, established His church on earth, suffered and died in atonement for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Through this, He brought about the resurrection of all, and eternal life for the faithful.

And that is who Jesus is for me, as a Mormon.

muggsey said...

If a 'wife', married in the temple "for time & eternity" dies, she goes to heaven. What happens to her if she was a maiden? Does not the husband have to die first in order to assist his 'wife' into going to heaven? Isn't that what you teach? What if you married a woman in a civil ceremony becuse a temple wasn't close by, and then she suddenly died in childbirth along with the child. She is accountable but the child is not. Does that mean that the child goes to heaven but that the wife doesn't? Does the woman have a soul? Doesn't the individual's soul communicate with God through the Holy Spirit? What happens if this wife called out to Jesus for salvation and died without having been married in a temple ceremony?

How does the statement of Jesus in Matthew 22:30 affect this entire doctrine?

Matt. 22;29-30

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

If there are no marriages in Heaven how can one of your own continue to collect 'celestial' brides. The only 'bride' in heaven will be the Bride of Christ, His Church, raised up and redeemed, having been cleansed by the Blood of The Lamb.

TBM said...

Wow, that's a lot of questions, Muggsey. I think it's probably best if I take them one at a time. Obviously, I'm not a spokesman for the LDS church, and I'm answering to the best of my knowledge, and according to my opinion as an individual.

First of all, a woman married in the temple is not guaranteed a place in heaven. She will be received into the Celestial Kingdom if she is worthy. My comment above was written in a spirit of optimism.

What happens to her if she was a maiden?
My understanding is that she will receive a husband during the Millenium, the 1000 years after Christ's second coming, when he rules over the earth, the righteous have been resurrected and satan is bound.

Does not the husband have to die first in order to assist his 'wife' into going to heaven?
No. All will be dead, or translated "in the twinkling of an eye" by the time of the Savior's second coming.

What if you married a woman in a civil ceremony becuse a temple wasn't close by ... What happens if this wife called out to Jesus for salvation and died without having been married in a temple ceremony?
It happens all the time, especially in poorer countries where LDS cannot afford to get themselves to a temple. They are counselled to be patient, because the church is building temples all over the world at an incredible rate. The LDS church's plan is that, where people cannot get to a temple, a temple will come to them. There are currently three temples in Africa, a dozen in South America with another planned, another dozen in Asia, with another planned. If LDS die without being sealed in the temple, their ordinances can be performed by proxy, same as "baptisms for the dead".

Does the woman have a soul?
Absolutely. I don't understand why you would even ask that question.

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage
Good question! And my honest answer would have to be, "I don't know". I never got asked that before. I'll check it out and get back to you.

onthestreet said...

muggsey said (8/08/2006 9:32 AM):

I suspect that your attitude, which reflects that of most nominal church members of any denomination, is a prevelent amoung LDS & FLDS as it is anywhere else. Sad but true. Don't take taday's blessings if there is a remote possibility that they are available tomorrow.

With this philosophy, your plan is to continue through one existence after another, never meeting the standards set by the church. When do your opportunities to do it right end? Never? Think about it! Your soul being born randomly through eternity yet never really advancing because you possess the greatest tool Satan has at his disposal. "I'll wait until tomorrow." Tomorrow never comes.



STREET’s Reply: Now you’re talking. That came directly from the Spirit Of God.

muggsey said...

It too is at the heart of Christian Conversion. Satan is the personality that deceives by making us believe that tomorrow will never come, therefore, there's no urgency to decide now.

I would much rather awaken in eternity with the knowledge that I had made the decision and am assured of forgivness of my sin than to awaken expecting a continuance of no hurry, I can put it off until tommorrow.

Yet tomorrow has arrived and you find that you have haphazardly lived your life as if there were no need for Jesus. But, you now face HIS judgement unprepared.

Just a very serious thought to ponder.

rumor-has-it said...

With the FLDS, being taught all my life it is an individual work and works garantee salvation...but they forgot what Jesus died for. There is a place in Heaven for everyone. God Forgives!

Anonymous said...

From Anon 6:31
Thank you TBM in your response to my question "Who is Jesus to you."

TBM said... He is the Savior, the Son of God the Father, who in fulfilment of the ancient prophesies, was born of the Virgin Mary, established His church on earth, suffered and died in atonement for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Through this, He brought about the resurrection of all, and eternal life for the faithful.

And that is who Jesus is for me, as a Mormon.

Questions?
Do you think dead people who have not accept the gospel will have another chance to believe in Christ?

Are you familar with the first passover story in the Bible?

Are you 100% sure Jesus alone can keep you from Satan's grip?

Anonymous said...

Rumor
Wow! I thought you had to give your tithe, your soul and perfect obediance to the prophet and be in the bishop's little black book to have salvation.


You are right Rumor God wishes for everyone to be in heaven, that why he gave us Jesus a perfect sacrifice.

God even provides the faith to believe in Him.

God forgives all sin except rejection of Jesus.

Works are man's feeble attempt to be justified. Dead end path.

Good Works are not the cure but are a testament you believe, like the act of baptism and communion. Works are a by-product of faith.

God made Hell for Lucifer and his rebellious angels. Hell was never meant for mankind.

Satan and men want to complicate a simple message.

Jesus saves.

onthestreet said...

Matt. 7:

21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Anonymous said...

Yes Street, GOOD VERSES you need to bookmark MATTHEW CHAPTER 7:21-23.

TBM said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
TBM said...

anon 8:29

*laughing out loud!*

TBM said...

Anon 11.37: Do you think dead people who have not accept the gospel will have another chance to believe in Christ?
I don't think there's any hard-and-fast doctrine on that one, beyond that, if they are worthy of salvation without having accepted the gospel, they will receive that opportunity after the resurrection. This is why Mormons perform ordinances that must be fulfilled in this life, like baptism, by proxy.

Are you familar with the first passover story in the Bible?
That's quite the logical leap, even for lateral thinking! What are you really trying to say?

Are you 100% sure Jesus alone can keep you from Satan's grip?
I think I answered that one already. If you have something to say, why don't you just go ahead and say it?

Muggsey: For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage
Good question! And my honest answer would have to be, "I don't know". I never got asked that before. I'll check it out and get back to you.


Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you, Muggsey. I haven't been on this blog in some time. But the answer to your question is clarified by Doctrine & Covenants 132.

"Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever."

So it's referring to people who are not married within the temple. Of course, the theory is that by the end of the millenium, all who ever lived will have been sealed by proxy within the temple. But proxy ordinances only apply to those souls who have accepted the gospel.

Since you don't believe in the LDS scriptures, I don't expect you to take that very seriously. But that's where we're coming from. I guess it illustrates our point that the LDS scriptures complement the Bible.

That at least, is as I understand it. But like I said, I'm not a spokesman for the LDS church, and that's quite profound doctrine. It's not something I'd claim to be an expert on.

However, I did receive an e mail from a friend suggesting another possible explanation. This is an extract of his e mail:

"29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

...there is probably a simpler answer if we remember our grammar rules. What is the antecedent of "they" in verse 30? The "they" refers to "ye" in the previous verse, meaning the Sadduecees who were asking the question. Therefore, the Sadducees, who neither understand the scriptures nor the power of God, will not be married in the resurrection."

Anonymous said...

TBM
"29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

...there is probably a simpler answer if we remember our grammar rules. What is the antecedent of "they" in verse 30? The "they" refers to "ye" in the previous verse, meaning the Sadduecees who were asking the question. Therefore, the Sadducees, who neither understand the scriptures nor the power of God, will not be married in the resurrection."

TBM you need to read the other verses posed by the Sadducees
about the brother who died childless and his wife was passed on from brother to brother after each brother died. The Sadducees was trying to trap him.

Jesus was giving his response to that question. NO MARRIAGE IN HEAVEN.

Jesus said in Matthew Chapter 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."

Jesus being a Jew knew the Torah, the first 4 books in the Bible.

He knew the Law of Incest.
Leviticus Chapter 18.
Look at verse 18 Joseph Smith's Inspired Version
"18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, besides the other in her life-time"

Or American Standard verse 18: "And you shall not marry a woman in addition to her sister as a "rival" while she is alive, to uncover her nakeness."

If Jesus was married to sisters Mary and Martha as claimed by some Fundalmentalist he was breaking God's LAW. Therefore Jesus was not a perfect sacrifice was he. No Savior could he be.

The FLDS practice taking sisters as plurals wives.

I will let scripture judge.

TBM said...

Jesus was giving his response to that question. NO MARRIAGE IN HEAVEN
I assume you're a mainstream Christian. Mormons do not define heaven, or the resurretion, that simply.

In Mormonism, there are three existences that might be defined as "heaven" (Mormons never refer to "heaven" except in a very general sense), and there are two resurrections.

There is one resurrection for the faithful at the second coming of jesus Christ, and another for the less faithful 1000 years later. At that point, all will be judged and assigned to the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the Telestial Kingdom, depending on their worthiness.

The Doctrine & Covenants implies that Christ was referring to the second resurrection, after which, there is no dispute that there will be no further marriage.

What my friend's e mail argued was that Christ may have been saying that the Saducees personally would not attain the Celestial Kingdom, wherein they would be able to retain their wives.