Tuesday, July 25, 2006

Mural in YFZ temple

Does anyone have any information concerning the mural(s) Warren Jeffs is having painted in his temple?


Anonymous said...

Murals?:YE SHALL NOT MAKE ANY GRAVEN IMAGES,saith the warren your God.

Anonymous said...

Well Uncle Ratt, I don't know about any murals at the YFZ, but murals could deplicit the Garden of Eden.

Anonymous said...

I bet it's a mural of warren getting a "message" from God.

Anonymous said...

I would think they might be similar to these:



Anonymous said...

ill bet it's a mural of warren bumming all his young male concubines...

ATAR_i said...

I'm curious - post it if you find out!

individual identity said...

how do we even know there are any murals in the temple? Or is this just another speculation that seems to be so rampant on this blog. I wish when people post they'd either form intelligent, answerable questions, or come forward with some solid facts.
Just an observation of our communication skills.

Anonymous said...

I don't know, but perhaps pilot who posts the photos on this blog, Sheriff Doran and Randy Mankin might know. Hope pilot posts new pictures soon.

muggsey said...

Well, a graven "all seeing eye" is right above the front door of the place. Hmmmmmm????

Anonymous said...

There is a secret room on the third floor of the YFZ temple. There is a mural being painted of Christ and seven of his wives. Facial features of Christ resemble those of WJ. Christ is wearing a red robe. Believe me, I know. Warren has his spies.

Anonymous said...

Well I guess this room with Christ and wives would be the "Holies of Holies".

ATAR_i said...

It couldn't be Christ, as he was unmarried.

It must be how warren views himself. I'm curious as the the number 7. Is that a number he has chosen, a number chosen before him, or just the number of wives he favors?

Do any of the women resemble his current wives.

Who is the artist who is painting the mural - paid or FLDS?

muggsey said...

I know that ots et. al want to confuse unknowledgable persons regarding the marital state of Jesus. Confusion is their reason for continuing to press their deceptive teachings on this blog. They refer to His (Jesus) appearance at the wedding feast in Cana of Galilee where He, Jesus, performed His first miracle as being His (Jesus's) physical wedding to a physical bride. The miracle, the changing of water into wine was performed prior to Jesus having achieved his majority. He announced to his mother, Mary, that His time had not yet come. Read the text in it's entirety and you will get the real story of the incident. See The Gospel of John Chapter 2 begining with verse 1 and continuing through verse 11. Verse 11 gives the reason for the miracle. The result was that his newly called diciples saw His power for the first time. Nowhere is it implied that Jesus was the groom nor is any bride named. Nowhere else in the Bible is a bride named except figurativly as "The Church", which is referred to as "The Bride of Christ." The Marriage Feast of the Lamb (Christ) does not take place until Revelation the Nineteenth Chapter specifically verses 7 - 9. The bride of Christ (the Church) lifted up into Heaven, will present itself to Christ as a perfected and Holy Bride, through the redemption of Jesus Himself on Calvary's Cross. Jesus redeemed and is redeeming His Own. There is no reference of a physical union between Jesus and anyone. Why would The ONE who spoke all things into existance be weighted down by the earthly necessity of procreation? Read John Chapter 1 and compare it to Genesis Chapter 1, especially those verses related to "The Word." The relationship between Christ and His Bride is spiritual and lasts for all eternity. He created and redeemed us for fellowship with Himself. That fellowship was interrupted with Adam & Eve's fall in the Garden of Eden. The same fellowship was restored, at GOD'S expense by the shed Blood of Jesus, which cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Only those who have accepted HIS sacriffice as their salvation will be present at this feast. Have you participated? If not you may, if you follow Jesus way, not your own.

BOM is no commentary on the Bible. It is no new revelation, it is a hoax created by Joseph Smith and his friends to make money and bilk widows out of their dead husband's estates. Smith's actions are not those of an honorable man. He was and his memory still is a boil on the buttocks of the world. His legacy is one of mercenary infamy.

Anonymous said...

So... If Warren has spies, why don't one of you do the right thing and turn him in? I don't buy this talk that anyone on this board has any idea what is and isn't in the temple.

Anonymous said...

Mugs you really should just go fishing to dangle your worms.

Without question you are guilty of some of the worst blasphemy on any of the blogs. That includes LDS, FLDS, even anti-LDS and probably even Christian for that matter.

Disgusting doesn't even begin to describe it adequately.

onthestreet said...

muggsey said (7/26/2006 11:45 AM):
Well, a graven "all seeing eye" is right above the front door of the place. Hmmmmmm????

STREET's Reply: Ahh yes, and Israel's temples in Jerusalem had many intricate and beautiful ENGRAVEINGS. WAIT! They even had statues of the angels, overseeing the Holy of Holies! Oh my, OH MY!!! God must be a worshipper of idols. Is that your assumption?

ATAR_i said...

Goog point anon 8:20 - can the 'leak' please leak his location : )

ATAR_i said...


muggsey said...

I stand firmly upon my postings. If you can't stand the heat.......

To tell the truth about Joseph Smith and his rowdy band of merry men is what gets you so upset.

You don't want to admit that the Bible, not the fantasy(s) of Joseph Smith, proven over and over to be hoaxes, is the Divinely Inspired Inerrant Word of God.

Smith can't comment:

1. He doesn't know the Bible well enough to be a novice student.

2. His text for the BOM was written by Solomon Spalding as a romantic novel. It was spiritualized with a lot of King James English by Sidney Rigdon who gave it to Smith.

3. Smith supposedly dug up golden plates from a hillside near Palmyra N.Y., held possession of them long enough to "Trnaslate" Reformed Egyptian Text by looking through stones at the plates which he placed in the bottom of his up-turned hat. The three and then the eight witnesses ALL denounced that they had actually seen and/or held those self same plates. Their testimony stated that they had seen them in the spirit and not in fact. This testemony refuted testimony given in the preface to the BOM. Refutal was never recognized by LDS because to do so would refute the validity of Smith's claims.

4. The Pearl of Great price, supposed to be also taken from Reformed Egyptian texts, when examined by qualified Egyptologists were reported to be writings frequently accompanying mummies and spoke as to the art of embalming dead bodies.

5. Doctrines & Covenants were added as additional revelations when indeed the purpose was to spiritualize Smith's actions and to declare them good and proper. This is especially true of #132 which, upon his wife finding he was having affairs with other women, threatened to expose his perfidity so he wrote 132 to cover up his adultry and make those women his own "spiritually."

If these lies were not enough, consider the number of times Smith was brought before court for being a seer. He had to leave town several times because the people whom he was cheating caught on to his little scam and Smith ran for his life. He was a seer at race-tracks giving odds as to which horse would win. He suppposedly obtained this information the same way he translated the plates, through his "seer" stones.

Joseph Smith was a fraud, pure and simple. His writings are fraudelent. His demise came about as the result of Smith and his bully boy having destroyed the newspaper in Navoo, Ill. because the editor dared to write the truth concerning Smith's antics.

Smith was a womanizer, a gambler, a fortune teller, a seer, a part time drunkard who existed because he had a charismatic personality and could dupe the uninformed to believe his works.

I don't believe a thing he wrote. I stand by that statement. I find nothing in my Bible but commendation for identifying false prophets and teachers. "It would be better if they had a millstone tied about their neck and were drowned in the depth of the sea than to hurt one of these, my little ones." Jesus Christ

Look it up. You only look up scripture to argue your point which never leads one to a knowledge of the Love of God through Christ Jesus, Our Lord.

You desire to be god. You hate the idea that at the end of life there will be judgement and only have one of two places where you will go immediately. Heaven, to be with God or Hell, to be with your brethern, Satan and his demons where the fire is never quenched.

Smith invented the concept of re-birth in the physical form in another world. Why? If judgement did not face you at the end of life you can live as you please but still be born to have another chance to work your way upward. I can see how the foolish would grasp at this false message because it has no condemnation built in. God is just another man. He has no power. He is not I AM. His name to Smith is Michael. Michael is the Archangel whose specific responsibility to to protect the children of Israel. I, since the end of WWII have seen Israel repeatedly have to go to war against overwhelming odds. Each time they have been able, with God's oversight, to overcome their enemy. Had Israel followed God's commandment given in Deutronomy, they wouldn't be having this problem today. They are fighting the historic descendents of those nations and people who were living in Palestine at the time of the Exodus. Israel will prevail. God is omnipatant. Michael still guards Israel, but only at the command of I AM.

Now, all these truths I have told you are available for your study. First, I would advise you to become a student of the Bible. Not for the purpose of criticism but to understand the Mind and Purpose of man being on earth, why man fell from God's grace to begin with, how God planned to make man holy by His sacriffice of Jesus for the Sins of Man. Jesus upon the cross became sin. Upon that cross sin was killed. The law was completed, the veil of the Temple tore in half. Not from bottom to top but from top to bottom. A great earthqauake shook the countryside, the rocks were rent, and the graves were opened wide.
Why? The sacriffice of Jesus reconciled the Old Testement righteous and they left the grave to go to be with The Lord. They are there today. Man once again has direct access to God through Christ. We are taught to pray in the Name of Jesus because no other name is given in Heaven or Earth by which we must be saved.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the leak is too scared, and maybe the leak only have limited windows of opportunity long after Warren has relocated to tell anyone. Also, the leak may be a bit uncertain how much they want to leak.

Anonymous said...

it is probably an FLDS artist doing the painting. We had a few really good ones. Every time there was a different program at the meeting house, the backdrop got repainted with beautiful scenery.
It won't be Sam Fischer's son cause he was kicked out, but there was a Barlow boy who was good too.

desert darling said...

It would have been an FLDS artist drawing any murals in the YFZ Temple. They wouldn't want any gentile to set foot in there, much less know what is on the walls.
Besides, they have some qualified to do the work, some that were educated before the warren era.

Anonymous said...


Its funny you read the novel called the Bible and believe the childrens stories in it. Yet if someone believes in the BOM you act like they are an ignorant retard. I find that funny..What makes your novel better then theres?

ATAR_i said...

Well, whomever the leak is - I'm thankful that some things are seeping out. I would be very interested to spend some time with that person, listen to a lecture, or read a book from an individual on the inside to that extent.

Any ideas of what individuals have the kind of artistic talent necessary to create a mural like that.

desert darling said...

I thought that naming names was taboo

ATAR_i said...

Not really.

People have been called out on this board 9or guesses made, but as a rule, even though we are curious, we don't do that. So, I know a few identities, but I keep them under wraps.

Most of the time we don't name names just for salacious reasons.

TBM said...

Muggsey! Muggsey! Muggsey! When are you going to learn that zeal, however passionate, is no sbstitute for rational, knowledge-based logic? You have zeal in abundance -- there's no doubt of that. But you have no knowledge!

So let me enlighten you, point by point:

1. Joseph Smith didn't know the Bible.

To someone of your opinion, who has probably never studied Joseph Smith's teachings beyond giving the Book of Mormon a cursory skim-through, that's probably an easy conclusion to jump to. But if you were to examine Joseph Smith's hundreds of essays, sermons and lectures, I'm sure you would realize that his understanding of the Bible was much deeper than the overwhelming majority of people's.

2. The Book of Mormon was copied from a romantic novel written by Solomon Spaulding

So can you show me the romantic bits in the BoM? I'm not sure Corianton's dalliance with the harlot Isabel really qualifies.

As I've pointed out before, if you would like to actually read Solomon Spaulding's manuscript, simply copy and paste this URL: http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/rlds1885.htm

And if you would like to compare it to the Book of Mormon, copy and paste this URL: http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents

That much should be evidence enough that, whatever the BoM's origin, it is not a copy of the Spaulding manuscript.

Besides, think about the dynamics of what you're suggesting. Joseph Smith lived up by Rochester, NY. Rigdon lived in Pittsburgh. And just because Rigdon lived in the same city as the printer that Spaulding delivered his manuscript to in no way means Rigdon ever visited that printer.

But lets assume he did. And the printer for whatever reason pulled out this manuscript that had been gathering dust for years on his shelf and showed it to Rigdon. According the the theory, Rigdon then "stole" this manuscript, and carried it all the way from Pittsburgh to Rochester, either by horse or stage (and that would have been a major voyage!), to deliver it to an unschooled teenager that Rigdon cannot possibly have known well!

Why? Why didn't Rigdon just copy the manuscript himself?

Why get a teenaged hillbilly to start a new religion, when Rigdon was himself a Baptist minister?

And if there was a good reason why he couldn't start a new religion himself, why didn't he get someone in Pittsburgh to do it? Why go all the way to upper New York State?

And surely, if you're going to launch a new religion,it would make sense to do it in a major city like Pittsburgh than a po-dunk farming town like Palmyra?

But of course, like with all conspiracy theories, awkward questions, however obvious, are ignored.

3. The witnesses to the golden plates all admitted they only saw the plates in spirit

If there was a shred of evidence for this, you can guarantee the anti-Mormons would have it plastered all over the internet. The impressive thing is that none of the witnesses denied their testimonies, even though nearly all of them fell out over the years with Joseph Smith and walked out for a time. In the case of the Whitmers, they never returned to the church, but there is still no record of them ever denying their testimonies that they had seen and even touched the gold plates.

I think what you're referring to is an interview that Martin Harris gave to Tiffany Magazine (I have the full text somewhere in the bowels of my filing cabinet), where he makes an off-the-cuff side-remark that he saw the plates with his "spiritual eyes" rather than his "natural eyes".

The comment wasn't germaine to the point. The interviewer didn't bother asking what he meant, and Martin Harris didn't explain. But it was probably a reference to a verse in the Pearl of Great Price -- Moses 1:11 -- where Moses has just seen God in the flesh, knowing that no man can do this and live: "But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him. "

4. The Pearl of Great Price was translated from Egyptian pypyrus now proved to be completely different

In 1836, when Joseph Smith purchased the pypyri, probably no-one in the whole of the USA could have checked or translated them. Champolian had only cracked the Egyptian code a couple of years earlier, and his book was still only available in French. In fact, one of the reasons Michael Chandler showed the pypyri to Joseph Smith was because he couldn't find anyone else to translate them.

Following Joseph Smith's death, his wife sold the pypyri to the Wood Museum in Chicago, which tucked them away in its archive for years before they were thought to have been destroyed by fire.

In the 1960's, however, some fragments were discover in the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art -- and how they got there is a total mystery! They were examined and indeed found to be entirely mundane.

But ... that doesn't mean The Pearl of Great Price was translated from those fragments! Nobody's suggesting that all Michael Chandler's pypyri were important. It is perfectly possible that the New York fragments had nothing at all to do with the Pearl of Great Price, and therefore Joseph Smith had ignored them! So sorry, uggsey, but that accusation isn't nearly as damning as it might apear at first sight!

5. D&C 132 was written to cover up Joseph Smith's affairs

There's probably not much I can say against someone's private opinion, developed without any investigation into the background, to back up his pre-conceived position. But I will point out that, a) the church denies this b) it was written in 1843, and polygamy was already well established, and probably the worst-kept secret in Nauvoo! If Emma hadn't heard of Joseph Smith having other women, she must have been deaf!

Fawn Brodie claimed in "No Man Knows My History", that the then historian of the LDS church (Joseph F. Smith, I think) told her that he knew of a document written in 1831, which foreshadowed polygamy.

Sorry for the massive length of this post. It's about as short as I think I can make it!!!!

fttc said...

Thanks TBM

That needed saying and you said it much better than I've been able.

muggsey said...


An interesting observation was given on a previous thread of this blog concerning the volume of 'history' collected by the LDS to substantiate Smith's claims. Do I see a parallel here? I have access to a handful of books including the extremely scholarly and footnoted "Who Really Wrote The Book Of Mormon" by Wayne L Cowdreyh, Howard A. Davis and Vrthur Vanick, the dedication of which I've previously posted but will do so again.

"Dedicated to the memory of the Rev. Wesley Walters and Dr. Walter Martin, whose work has been painstakingly continued in this volume; To Solomon Spalding, M.A., that he al last rest in peace, and To the good people of Amity, Washington County, Pennsylvania, who never had any doubts as to who really wrote The Book of Mormon."

I have an idea that you must

1.) be an historian very near to or associated with the collection of Mormon History or

2.) A, or Several leaders of LDS have read some of my posts and have become quite upset because I am not pursuaded by all the FLDS or LDS arguments presented to counter my revelations. I make you uncomfortable. Why? Probably not because I would be able to get your main flock to desert but, some individuals who are not of your flock might read one or more of my posts and as a result would be better prepared to turn away your dedicated missionaries. I have read that your greatest successes in getting converts to Mormon come from protestant and non catholic persons who really do not have a good foundation in their particular faith. They are babes in Christ. They have never taken the opportunity afforded them to grow in faith. Therefore, when they are approached by these clean cut young people they are impressed by the dedication demonstrated and are therfore more easily led into the Mormon camp.

We, who are not LDS could learn a great deal about evangelizing from your example. A religion that requires nothing but, be good, pay a tithe, stock your pantry for three years, have meetings with your family once a week, attend worship on Sunday, be available to work in LDS projects day or night is pretty easy to sell.

The fact that you hoodwink them to believe that we are all on a journey to perfection and if we die without having achieved that goal we'll have chance after chance until one day we will achieve perfection as god. Wow! For the average person who has heard about Heaven and Hell, but knows that they are never going to be good enough to go to Heaven and if you LDS can get me out of Hell, I'll give you a try.

I won't copy a length passages from the above mentioned book because. 1.) there is not room on this blog to contain it. 2.) I am concerned regarding infringement of copyrighted material.

That book, as well as Krakauer's -"Under the Banner of Heaven", "Mormonism 101" (Examining the Religion of the Latter Day Saints) by Bill McKeever & Eric Johnson; Extensive notes available from the Writings of Alexander Campbell, a former associate of Sidney Rigdon, and contemporary of Joseph Smith concerning the origins of Mormonism. Much of the Mormon belief is the mirror image of some of Campbell's teaching. I found these on line in the Library of Abilene Christian University, Abilene, Texas. I am not a member of Campbell's church nor spin off of Campbell's church.

I don't have a list of other titles which I have read, which include Faun Brodie's "Nobody" et. al., reference and history books regarding the practice of polygamy, mostly from the person who has suffered and denounced the faith and practice.

Most of the rites of Freemasonry can be Googled.

I still stand firm on every single statement I have written on any thread on this blog with the possible exception of a mis-quote which I have corrected.

I am firm in the Faith that was taught by Jesus concerning Himself, His Church and His Return. Paul's testimony of faith was firmly established in the book to the Romans, as was the carnal nature of man, the failure of the law because of man's hardness of heart and unrepenant spirit, the Grace of God through the sheding of His Son's Blood on Calvary as the price of ransom paid for our redemption from sin, brought to us by the Spirit of God. James talks about good works. I do not believe that good works, which are performed for the purpose of impressing someone on earth who is your spiritual superior has any value when you stand before The Judgement Seat of Christ. If instead those works were a natural occurrance being brought forth out of the Love of Christ within us, from a person dedicated to Jesus Christ and His Glory then the praise is intended to Glorify Christ and not to man, the performer of the works.

Uncle Ratt said...

Cartoon: Joe Smith and Jesus standing on the edge of a cloud looking down on the temple at the YFZ ranch. Smith, turning to Jesus, says, "I understand the prophet Jeffs has given you 7 wives." Jesus, thoughtfully stroking his beard says, "I wonder if I could give them back to the men he took them away from."

TBM said...

"Who Really Wrote The Book Of Mormon" "Mormonism 101" Are these the scholarly works that taught you the BoM witnesses denied their testimonies? That the Pearl of great Price is proved not to be translation from ancient pypyri? That Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud numerous times? That his final words were a Masonic utterance, as confirmed by several Masons present?

One of the things that annoys me intensely is the degree of polarization that has always revolved about the BoM -- as we've seen on this board. And unfortunately, almost all books published about Mormonism are not scholarly at all (although the authors frequently go to great efforts to give that impression), but shamelessly and idiotically partisan.

And the pro-Mormons are as bad as the anti-Mormons -- they all pick 'n mix the evidence as it suits them; they begin with their conclusion, and find the evidence to back it up. Of all the books I have ever read, for and against, going right back to the 1830's to John Corrill's "A Brief History of the Church" and Eber D. Howe's "Mormonism Unveiled" (and what tiresome drivel that was!), I think only Juanita Brooks' "The Mountain Meadows Massacre" and Frank McLynn's "Wagons West" can really be considered truly impartial.

Even Fawn Brodie made some pretty eye-popping leaps in order to advance her determination to denigrate the LDS Church. Although I find it surprising you still give the Spaulding theory any credence if you've read "No Man...", because Brodie rubbished it pretty soundly.

TBM said...

Muggsey: Most of the rites of Freemasonry can be Googled

I have Googled Freemasonry in the past, and concluded that they tend to be victims of the same kind of mean-spirited closed minds that the Mormons have to put up with.

muggsey said...

I can't disagree with your assessments of the works you mentioned with the exception of "Who wrote the book of Mormon - The Spalding Enigma" and "Mormonism 101" If you have not had the opportunity to browse through these books I think that you will find that the arthors have gone to great trouble and made many contacts, checked many records and have made some conclusions based upon scholarship and not just "how they feel about the topic." The first, published by Concordia Press of St. Louis is so full of footnotes and references that have been supported by documents and testimony of individuals who were questioned about their experiences from over 150 years ago. These were recorded and passed on. The book is a continuation and authentication of testimony and documentation from the nineteenth century, with quotations from individuals who were present at the time the various events occurred. If nothing else I think that you will have to agree that there has never been general acceptance of the works of Joseph Smith except by his followers. I firmly believe the near sainthood bestowed upon Smith by his near associates strongly suggests that in their eyes he is the reincarnation of Jesus himself. The place of the 70 the twelve apostles and the prophet or president of the group in many ways no different than the episcopalian (adjective) method of governing protestent churches. I do not think the Pope, the Archbishop of Cantebury nor any bishop or leader who singularly is looked to as the final authority is one bit more authoritative than the average Joe who fills the pew, gives his tithe, works to support his family, is faithful to his marriage, raises his children in the knowledge and admonation of the Lord, sets an example of honesty, cheerfulness, charity to others, regardless of their position in life or church affiliation or lack thereof. This man shows the love of Jesus, the Grace of Allmighty God by his works. He is not trying to impress anyone. He is a good man because of the fact that he is indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God. His choices are made by reasoning "What would Jesus do?" in this situation. There is a man of courage and strength, the head of his family and a vital citizen in his community.

Smith's known recorded lifestyle prior to and after his supposedly finding the plates is not exemplary of a person who does not have a personal agenda. His leading the destruction of the newspaper because it had the audacity to contridict his doctrine tell me more about his self important behavior than many other or his questionable antics.

As far as the book "Mormonism 101" is concerned, it was published by Baker Book House, of Grand Rapids, Mich. The purpose is to take a strong look at the teachings of Mormonism and compare it to Grace Based Christianity. This book too is heavily footnoted so to dismiss it as unacceptable is a foolish assumption. Any person who had the opportunity to study this book would strengthen his Christian faith. It answers the questions that your missionaries pose to the average person that they visit. In turn, it provides many questions about Mormonism that need to be answered. I have a copy of the fourth printing dated 2002.

It questions the LDS Concept of God.

It examines the LDS concept of humankind

It examines the LDS concept of Scripture.

It examines the LDS concept of salvation

It examines the LDS concept of ordinances

Finally, it examines the LDS concept of Revelation

In the Appendices:

A Past and Present Important Leaders in the LDS Church.

B The top 101 Events in the History of Mormonism

There are extensive footnotes, a bibliography and an index of biblical References

Any Mormon facing an individual who has had an opportunity to read and review this little book will turn away, without success in their attempt to proselyte. Christians who have become informed as to the differences between the beliefs will send your young firebrands away not understanding just what happened to their well rehearsed presentation.

What does being "victims of the same kind of mean-spirited closed minds that the Mormons have to put up with" mean?

Review of the Google will answer your question regarding Joseph Smith' final cry. You have to look for it but it's there.

TBM said...

Does "Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon?" answer any of the awkward questions I mentioned above?

By "mean-spirited closed minds", I mean those critics who, in a spirit of hatred and prejudice, are determined to assume the worst of an institution, and care nothing for who they may hurt as they charge down their pissed-off highway.

muggsey said...

Resaearch into the book titled: "Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon - The Spalding Enigma" was researched and published to counter all the claims that have been FINANCED by LDS in an effort to force the public to accept THEIR VERSION as fact. The project was begun in the middle of the nineteenth century, the original researchers and authors passed on before the job was completed. With the advent of the computer age and access to thousands of documents, located in hundreds of locals, the collection was more easily accessed and thus was printed. Why? The answer is addressed in the books dedication. I have quoted it twice on this blog. If you really want to know what the book says don't take my word. Go to a bookstore and buy or order the book and read it for yourself.

I make no apology for introducing some of the main ideas on this blog. The book is timely, honest and is not attempting to make foul things sacred nor ruffians into saints. The book seeks the truth and gives vast testimony to that fact.

Anonymous said...


We still wanna know why your novel(the Bible)is better then the BOM novel.

ATAR_i said...


I'll have to take issue with something you say about polygamy being rampant, and if Emma didn't know she was deaf.

Well firstly, it was a very victorian, conservative group of people, I think polygamy was inconceivable.

JS closest followers were aware of his dalliances, and so were a few families. But remember, Smith was quite a popular fellow, and an amazing personality. The force of his personality, and the zeal of his convictions I'm certain kept the most confused followers at bay.

When the doctrine was revealed (long after Emma was aware), many were scandelized. That is where apparently my family tree broke off with mormonism (right outside of Nauvoo), and started a different version of LDS without polygamy (the reorganized/restructured church).

I do not doubt that a huge group of his followers had their victorian sensibilities rocked to the core. Who would have believed such a thing.

So, I believe that Emma might have believed her husband was unfaithful, but certainly not that he believed in polygamy.

She knew him better than anyone, and she left the religion. It's not that she didn't believe in some of the teachings (she was involved in the reorganized church), so she must have had some sort of faith in the message.

But TBM, If you went on trips and slept with your hosts daughter, or asked your friend to give you his wife, your wife might just lose faith in you too.

He was a man, a charasmatic man with a personality that left you wanting more. It's not inconceivable that his sinful desires, intersected with his spiritual quests in a way that he didn't even realize, and formed the foundation for the revelation.

It is not inconceivable.

ATAR_i said...

Back to the mural.

TBM said...

Muggsey: "The book seeks the truth ..."

... but does not attempt to explain why Rigdon didn't just do it all himself, in Pittsburgh.

It clearly hasn't sought the truth all that hard. However massive its bibliography. I could read a thousand books about Christianity, but if they're all written by Muslims, they won't give me a good understanding of it!

And Fawn Brodie wasn't financed by the LDS church -- they excommunicated her! But she still thought the Spaulding theory was hogwash.

(tbm runs for cover and battens down all hatches in anticipation of cataclysmic Muggserruption!)

TBM said...

Atar_i: it was a very victorian, conservative group of people, I think polygamy was inconceivable ... It is not inconceivable

It's enteirely conceivable, and I'm glad you made that worthwhile observation. I think the fact that society was so Victorian and prim & proper was what made the rumors of polygamy so controversial and so widely circulated -- it was shocking stuff, and made for great newspaper sales! While he was president of the church's British mission, John Taylor even attended a public debate in France, where he was questioned about polygamy!

Your post reminded me of an amusing anecdote, where in 1843, Joseph Smith had to appear in court before a Judge Pope. When the judge appeared to give his conclusions (finding for Joseph Smith), he walked into the court with an escort of twenty women that he had sit down with him on the bench. And everyne in the court burst into hysterics; they all understood the joke perfectly.

muggsey said...

Obviously, the Judge himself was a polygamist. I would think that that alone would affect his judgement. When you own the court judges tend to rule in your favor.

So, what does this revelation prove?

Your practice of polygamy, as far as I am concerned, is not the real issue here. The system demonstrates the absolute control of all participants by a select few who have the say in all matters effecting all the lives within the cult. Underaged girls being hauled out of bed in the middle of the night and forced into Celestial marriages with men three times their age, polygamist women, having no legal claim to being married leach a living from the welfare system. I don't mind charity but, the fact that there are the "lost boys" available to be husbands and breadwinners leaves no rational reason why the those "Celestial" brides should not have husbands who are responsible for the welfare of the wife and children. These issues are so obvious it becomes tedious repeating it to a people so afraid of their 'profit' (spelling intentional) that they can't tell him where to go and go on with their life, trusting the Lord instead of believing that all wisdom must be sifted down through an individual so corrupt as Warren Jeffs.

TBM said...

Muggsey: Obviously, the Judge himself was a polygamist.

No, Muggsey, he wasn't. You cannot assume that based on my previous posts, even by the standards of your "scholarly" books.

Judge Pope was no Mormon, never became a Mormon, and no-one has ever suggested (until you did just now) that he had any sympathy for polygamy. But he had a sense of humor, and a high opinion of the Mormon prophet.

ATAR_i said...

tbm - I know you were thinking something, but I didn't quite get it - can you explain your last post in a different way - I know you were wanting to communicate something, but I was left wondering what. It might be me (it's late), but if you wouldn't mind.

Anonymous said...

The idea of Jesus being dressed in red when He returns comes from Isaiah 63:1-4 and from Doctrine and Covenants 133:46-51.

muggsey said...


No erruption. It would be an exercise in futility. Had I been brainwashed by your doctrine perhaps I too would buy into it's myths and conjurers. But I've not nor will I.

muggsey said...


Regarding the truth in "Who Really wrote the book of Mormon - The Solomon Spalding Enigma." I'm going to stick by the text of the book. Why? The fellows who spent the time to put the book together have no special interest except to demonstrate that in most instances the mormons have created their own history in an effort to control public opinion.

There may be a profit motive in issuing the book for publication, I hope that they achieve their goal and at least recover a part of the cost of publication. I would not expect that the book would make anyone's best seller list. These fellows wrote this exhaustive research as a labor of love in memory of those who went before them unable to complete the task. The book is a bit tedious to read there are so many footnotes, quotations and attestations confirming the accuracy of the statements made by various contributors. I believe that the book was offered for publication because it dared to take the Latter Saints claims on and call them lies. If they sell 1000 or a million copies it will not be considered to be of significant literary consequence except to those who seek truth and to those of you who are bent upon keeping the legacy of the LDS in line with your own created history. You see this book as probably the greatest test of truth confronting your history and claims of spirituality. Why else would LDS employ researchers and explorers to travel to distant lands, there to find nothing of archelogical significance to back up the claims made in the book of myths. Items which are reported to prove certain points of the mormon story fall to ashes when they are examined under the microscope of impartial scholarship.

Spalding wrote two books. The first "A Manuscript Found" is the text which Rigdon used as the basis for Smith's "Book of Mormon." In the 1830 version of Smith's plagerism an inordinate number of verses either begin with or contain the phrase "And it came to Pass." As a matter of fact, the plagerism has fifteen times as many uses of that phrase than the entire 1611 King James Bible.

It too is interesting that the names of Mormon, Nephi, Lehi and Lamanites were the same, both in Spalding's book and the Book of Mormon." The noticeable difference between the two was the addition of scriptural passages and religious mater which did not appear in Spalding's original work.

Of special interest in comparing the two works is the fact that pro-Mormon scholars tend to subject unfavorable evidence to a more rigid academic standard than is applied to similar pro-Mormon material.

The clincher to the subtilty used by pro-Mormans in defense of their position is the fact that when refering to Spalding's work they deny the connection simply because they conveniently forget to tell the casual reader that they are really comparing the Book of Mormon to an earlier work by Spalding, "Manuscript Story-- Conneaut Creek" and not the later document "A Manuscript Found." The Pro group want the reader to
believe that the two are one and the same, but they are two different manuscripts. A copy of "Manuscript Found--Conneaut Creek" was recoverd from an old trunk in Hartwick, New York in 1833 and shows no similarities to the other, better known, Spalding romance.

This one fact alone is sufficient to dispel the myth as to who actually wrote the text of the story that was later to become the Book of Mormon.

The wonderous exploits of Smith as he went through the motions of setting up his scam are amazing studies in the work of a con artist. The whole story reminds me of a gigantic 'shell game.' The pea is shown to be under one of the shells to bait the sucker into placing a bet. During the shuffle that follows the pea is palmed so that no shell is hiding the pea, therefore no selection is the winner. But, it is a fact, people, in general, love to take a chance. They see the pea but when they choose a location it's not there.

Mormons have been playing this little game with people all over the world since 1830. Those who see the fraud don't bite but, thd sad fact is that many have bitten and still seek another chance to be cheated.

fttc said...


Is the original manuscript that the BOM was allegedly copied from available for review? I have seen the proof of the Manuscript Found being written before the BOM was translated. I would like to see the evidence that the other was written before hand. I would think the two stories written by the same person about the same subject would have some similarities.

muggsey said...

Like I pointed out earlier Mormon scolars tend to favor evidence partial to Mormon viewpoint regardless of evidence to the contrary. You are very clever at writing your own pseudo-history and then creating new evidence to support the first. My, how convenient!

There is much evicence plus testimony from Spalding's family, friends, associates that overwhelming agree that Spalding wrote the book Rigdon used to create Mormon. The Copy of "Manuscript Story - Conneut Creek" is the document used by LDS to show that it has no bearing to the BOM, and they are correct. "A Manuscript Found" has conviently dropped out of site as has the burial papyri associated with PGP., as have the "Golden Plates" etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Anonymous said...

Uh, the papyrus survived the Chicago fire and was in a museum in New York, but is now in possession of the Mormon Church. It was exposed enough for a long enough period of time in New York to clearly show the fraud.

fttc said...

Either dropped out of sight or only existed in the minds of those who were determined to prove an innocent man guilty. The problem is that the hearsay on the con side is just as incredible as the hearsay on the pro side. And so it goes, round and round. I think you have to admit that the Mormon religion does not make bad citizens. The early Momons suffered persecution no matter what the reason for it was. In spite of that they built up several beautiful cities before being driven from their homes to the west. They then pioneered and settled a country that had been considered a wasteland by other explorers. The Mormons have played a vital part in the building of our great nation. JS began this work and it has had a continuance from there. I'd say for a man with the character you describe he did a pretty good job.

TBM said...

"Manuscript Found" has not dropped out of sight. It rests in the library of Oberlin College, Ohio, and that is what is published on the link I provided above. If you'd care to actually READ it, you'll see it does not contain the names, Mormon, Nephi and Lehi.

There is not a scrap of evidence to indicate that Spaulding ever wrote a second manuscript. This is only used by the advocates of the Spaulding Theory as an excuse to explain the almost total lack of similarity between "Manuscript Found" and the Book of Mormon.

Unfortunately, "We know Spaulding wrote a second manuscript because he must have done" is as weak an argument as "We know Rigdon gave the manuscript to Joseph Smith because he must have done. Wishful thinking isn't evidence!

TBM said...

the papyrus survived the Chicago fire and was in a museum in New York

Well, I can't show you any evidence to prove that only fragments were discovered in New York. I'll refer you to Fawn Brodie, queen of anti-Mormons, and her biography of Joseph Smith, "No Man Knows My History", where she does, in fact, in her anti-Mormon way, confirm it was nothing more than a couple of fragments.

TBM said...

atar_i:I know you were wanting to communicate something, but I was left wondering what

What I was trying to say, Atar_i, is that Nauvoo polygamy was such a poorly-kept secret, and was so scandalous, that it was even known about in France. I have also seen an article in a magazine published around the same time by Trinity College, Dublin, concerning rumors of polygamy in Nauvoo. This is despite the fact that the Mormons had no presense at all in either Ireland or France at the time.

And when an Illinois judge decided to make a joke at joseph Smith's expense, he trusted that it would be both fully comprehended by everyone in the court, and sufficiently hilarious, that they would overlook his breach of legal etiquette. And they did!

So the rumors were both widely spread and scandalous at the time. I hope that clears things up.

TBM said...

Muugsey: You are very clever at writing your own pseudo-history

You're right. We deceive the greatest minds on the planet, and brainwash our followers before breakfast, in a web of mind-blowing complexity and intrigue. And yet, we can't even organize a half-decent ward activity! How do we manage it?

the names of Mormon, Nephi, Lehi and Lamanites were the same, both in Spalding's book and the Book of Mormon

I think you're refering to an interview given to the Springfield Republican in 1889 -- nearly sixty years after the Book of Mormon's publication -- by the son of Spaulding's adopted daughter (so, not first-hand evidence then), when he said that he remembered his grandmother (oh boy, is this hearsay convoluted!) saying that she remembered these Book of Mormon names from her husband's manuscript.

Tell me, Muggsey, did "Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon", that book that seeks the truth, that you stand by, tell you that also? If so, it is astonishingly flawed, because its authors have obviously never read the Spaulding Manuscript -- and it's not as if the contents of Oberlin College library are classfied!

Because "Manuscript Found" does not contain those names! But, oh yes, of course, Spaulding wrote a second manuscript, didn't he. One which has been spirited away by the LDS church's phenomenally efficient secret service. Ahh, those Danites...

muggsey said...


It's not the fact that you mormons build beautiful structures. I have evidence of that fact about six miles (by road) from my house. The new YFZ temple is a beautiful structure. (From what I can see from the road, or from arial photographs.)

From everything I've seen, when Mormons are not the majority they are quiet, industrious good citizens. However, I witnessed the aloofness and coldness of Mormon hospitality one day as I traveled through St. George. Why, I don't know except when asked I told the teller at the bank that I was not a mormon. Things suddenly got chilly, in a hurry.

People visiting and/or investigating the happenings in Hildale/Colorado City have repeatedly expressed that they were followed, harrassed, threatened etc. just because they were there. So maybe the residents don't want anyone to see what is going on. What are they hiding, besides Warren Jeffs.

There are good and bad people in any society. Generally a person can find out about their neighbor by being observant or having some dealing with that person. Most of us, I think, are a mixture of likable and unlikable. We all have admirable traits and habits that make other mad or disgusted.

I'm not saying that rural towns of less than 10,000 persons don't have a personality all their own, regardless of the denominational preference(s) of the majority of population. Rural people, especially if they live off main thoroughfares, tend to be curious, and a bit stand-offish. In small towns the people tend to be present in that particular location because they have lived there all their lives, they have never traveled to see anyplace else, or the are somewhat frightend regarding change.

A town is judged by much more than the structures built within it. It is the people who are really the town, not the buildings lining the streets. A town doesn't need utilities, people do. A town doesn't need hospitals, streets, schools, but the people who live there do require those services.

The Temple built during the reign of King Solomon became the focal point for worship of the Hebrew people. They forgot about the spirit of God who filled the temple with his presence at the building's dedication. Remember that GOD told David that HE did not require a building in which to dwell. During Jeremiah's day idols were brought into the Temple and were made a part of Temple Worship. When man stooped so low, GOD withdrew HIS spirit from Jerusalem and the Temple and through the Prophets proclaimed the impending doom and destruction brought by the Babylonians.

Space is GOD's canopy but HIS throne is above all this creation, even space itself. How can man measure GOD? Any attempt to do so would be to measure GOD by those standards and measurements with which man is familiar. GOD'S measurements make man's appear as foolishness.

ATAR_i said...

What year did that judge make that comment? Or more to the point - what year would you say that polygamy became commonly known?

TBM said...

1843 was the year of Judge Pope's joke.

As for when polygamy became genrally known -- I don't think the rumors were widespread before Nauvoo's foundation, and the Mormons were probably too busy constructing and dying of malaria their first year to spend much time marrying. I would say the rumors built up steadily between about 1840 and 1842.

ATAR_i said...

Right - but his first wives were taken in the early 30's. Which was my point initially.

TBM said...

Muggsey: The new YFZ temple is a beautiful structure.

Sorry Muggsey, I'm going to have to disagree with you yet again. From the photographs I've seen on this site, it's pig-ugly, and looks more like a fortress than a house of worship! Which is kind of worrying.

onthestreet said...

muggsey said...
It's not the fact that you mormons build beautiful structures. I have evidence of that fact about six miles (by road) from my house. The new YFZ temple is a beautiful structure. (From what I can see from the road, or from arial photographs.)

Street's Reply: "God is a mighty fortress, tbm (8/03/2006 4:02 PM). Is there something wrong with that? Granted, there is a great difference betwixt the Mesa Temple and the YFZ Temple.

ATAR_i said...

Yes, it does seem a bit like a fortress, town hall, castle, mortuary and church all combined into one (then again - perhaps that's exactly what it is).

onthestreet said...

God is all things to all people.
(I Cor. 9:19)

ATAR_i said...

Yes, but God is also not made of bricks and mortar (or limestone as it were).

onthestreet said...

His house is bricks and mortar, and we too are his house, made of clay. The Lord always calls on His people to build a house unto Him, undefiled. To fail in that commandment, or to allow the filth of kith and kin to come in, is to defile it.

Anonymous said...

A lien has been placed on the "Temple of Doom" by a Dallas, Texas engineering firm for unpaid debts, was reported in Eldorado newspaper. A lien means if debt owed is not paid, the engineering firm owns the temple & all of YFZ, FLDS residents can be evicted by LE if property owner chooses to do so. The engineering firm as owner can enter temple as it is their property.

ATAR_i said...

Do you know what happens next?

Doesn't a lien can just stay there, so if the property is never bought nor sold, it will never be compelled to be paid?

Anonymous said...

A lien attaches to the property so it can't be sold, a lien holder has the right to foreclose the lien and either force sale of property or can take ownership.

§ 53.154. FORECLOSURE. A mechanic's lien may be
foreclosed only on judgment of a court of competent jurisdiction
foreclosing the lien and ordering the sale of the property subject
to the lien.

Acts 1983, 68th Leg., p. 3549, ch. 576, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1984

Texas Lien Laws


Of course if Warren Jeffs and his followers are smart they will just pay the debt and the lien goes away, but when has Jeffs been smart?

desert darling said...

Maybe they are running tight on money. Everything had been paid in cash in San Angelo not so long ago.

muggsey said...

The amount of the indebetness is not the issue. The real lesson we Schleicher County residents can learn from this incident is that YFZ and it's leadership continue to bear false witness. For those of you not familiar with the term "false witness" it simply means "THEY ARE LIARS and will stop at nothing to get the best of anyone who attempts to dobusiness with them. First we had a " hunting retreat", the operating cement plant snd public sewer without permit now, they are welching on an engineer's fee. What'll be next?

Anonymous said...

David Allred not paying his vehicle payments.