Friday, June 16, 2006

The Chess game

Life is really like a chess game. You have to use your wits to survive the evil darts that are often aimed at you. What do you say, Streetless?


onthestreet said...

Amen, Shi!less. Actually, I guess you have plenty of that. It's just constantly being pooped. I guess when you rub it on your chess or your privates (what one would call your pawns), to try and get one or two hairs to grow, and make yourself a real man's man, that's where the stench has been coming from. All that mating, see? Then it is CHECK-MATE. You're all done for, see? No more manliness. You just go all limp like a wimp, and all the kings horses, and all the king's men, cannot put humpy back together again.

Uncle Ratt said...

Streetless, Warren and his brother Seth would know about stuff on their privates. Does he treat his pawns the same way as he treated his nephew, Brent? You forgot to put the bull in front of shi!less.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe you said that! I thought you were a righteous man who followed the scriptures. What happened to "turn the other cheek" and being Christlike? Do you think Christ or even Uncle Warren would have reacted like that?

Anonymous said...

Gentlemen (I am assuming no woman would have written the above), are you aware that women read these posts too? They may not appreciate what you have said.

ATAR_i said...

I didn't get the initial post life is like a chess game there are evil darts aimed at you.

Never seen a chess game with darts...

Streets response was revolting and incoherant.

The whole thread is puzzling.

onthestreet said...

Well, you fokes have alot of company. The entire nations of the Jews and of Rome were also puzzled, even when Christ called them dung (shi! in our day). Even when He spoke less plain, with many parables, were they puzzled. But when He became quite BLUNT, then of course, being little brats, they were offended.

ex creeker said...

Speaking of chess games, check this out.

ATAR_i said...

Yes, that is quite the game of chess.

Do you think they will pay?

mugwump said...

The King of bRats hath spoken. Thus saith ots.

I am very confused. Once again you quote Jesus as Christ, but don't serve Him and Him only.

Your christ is warren jeffs.

There is more than a bit of duplicity here.


Anonymous said...

Hey folks, haven't you notice Street has a problem with bodily functions. It has to stoop to potty humor.

What is in the soul comes out of the mouth.

Anonymous said...

So far the game has been fun, we have Warren boxed into about every corner possible.

onthestreet said...

mugwump said (6/17/2006 7:57 PM):
“I am very confused…???
REPLY: Yes you are. That is a very fine confession, Les.

YOU SAY: “Once again you quote Jesus as Christ, but don't serve Him and Him only”.
REPLY: Well then, you are serving the wrong God, and Christ would be offended, for He Himself said: “Pray unto the Father in my name”, and “Pray thus: Our Father who are in heaven”. Jesus Himself often prayed to the Father, saying things like: “Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me”.

Hey Les, was He praying to Himself? Was he serving Himself, or self-serving? See, if you serve the Son and not the Father, as Christ commanded, then the Lord Himself will be offended by you, and say unto you: “Depart from me, ye cursed. I never knew you”. The Father was first and foremost to our Lord, and anything else is an idol. “Thou shalt have no other God before me”. See, you serve an idol, for you do not serve God the Father and Him only, but try to bypass the prophets sent by him, and thrust yourself onto him as if you could force your way through the door, Christ, to get to the Father, as a thief and robber.

John 10:7 - Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly (The FLDS produce life abundantly, in the Lord).
11. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The Prophet Warren Jeffs does not abandon the sheep nor the doctrine in the face of the wolves, being the true prophet, unlike the LDS Church which abandoned all for political gain when the wolves came.

Jn. 14:15 – “If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter”. See, you must serve God THROUGH the Son and the Spirit and the Prophet.

Mt. 10:41 – “He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

YOU SAY: “Your christ is warren jeffs. There is more than a bit of duplicity here”.
Wrong again. First of all, you belittle Christ by addressing Him in lower-case. Secondly, as Christ just said to you in the above quotes from His own mouth: We come unto the Father through Him, and His anointed upon the earth. Warren to me is certainly Christ’s Brother, His anointed.

I Sam. 26:11 – “The LORD forbid that I should stretch forth mine hand against the LORD'S anointed”.

Psalm 105:15 - "Saying, Touch not mine anointed , and do my prophets no harm."

I Sam. 2:35 – “And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

36. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left in thine house shall come and crouch to him for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and shall say, Put me, I pray thee, into one of the priests' offices, that I may eat a piece of bread.

Anonymous said...

Warren & his cronies/pedophiles represent nothing BUT VULGARITY. Rulon & Fred also both cussed like sailors....behind close doors of course.

Anonymous said...

What was so refined about that one fundy lady screaming at the camera man & reporter to "Go to Hell"?That's not up to her any who!

onthestreet said...

Boy, you should hear God cuss! NO, don't even go there. You'd simply be dead. He can REALLY cuss up a storm, literally, and everyone knows that to be the truth! God cusses better than us all, and we seek after His ways, when cussing and chastisement are appropriate. No WIMPS in the Kingdom of God.

Anonymous said...

Street, one minute you say "VULGARITIES FOR VULGAR PEOPLE, and REFINEMENT FOR THE REFINED." and then when someone states "Rulon & Fred also both cussed like sailors....behind close doors of course." then you change your course. You're so wishy washy. I don't think you have any thoughts of your own. How sad is that...a grown man that does not know how to think on his own.

mugwump said...

He that wallows in the hog pen will take upon himself the very odor of the hog he has become.

Thus saith Mugwump

Anonymous said...


Faithful Woman said...

That may be the worst vulgarity I have seen from street yet.

mugwump said...


Wrong again. lower case in the above was related to your presumption that warren jeffs is christ. jeffs is not now, never was, nor ever will be Christ. He's just a pretender, delusional and full of self. People of FLDS are beginning to see him for what he really is, a fraud!

I will use the upper case in reference to Jesus as Christ, and to none other.

Anonymous said...

Upper case is for named objects, whether referring to Lucifer, Warren, or Jesus. It's simply a matter of proper nouns; it has nothing to do with respect, but I believe in proper grammer to be respectable myself, regardless of whether or not the person I am naming deserves respect.

mugwump said...

You capitalize whatever you wish. I in turn will apply the same logic to my punctuation as to my spelling, you don't like it, correct it to suit yourself. If a proper name is not capitalized, to me it is a sign of disrespect and as such it is intended.

warren in his current state is not a proper noun, nor a proper example nor a person with whom I would care to have any relationship. he is a nobody. My attitude toward his nothingness probably makes him madder than whether I capitalize his name, more especially if I am refering to Christ. warren as christ has no appeal, only revulsion.

he finds glee in his infamy. I find disgust. he desires others to worship at his feet. I will spit upon them if the option comes my way. he claims his word is of god. I claim that he is one of the many current manifestations of the Devil, the Great Dragon.

he claims to be spiritual. I claim his spirit is one of deceit and false claims. he demands obedience. he WILL be the obedient one.

He is a jerk, a charlton, a mystical conjurer, a seer, a sham, a falsehood, a liar, a thief, a carbon copy of his great idol joseph smith. he wallows in bed with women and young boys while taping his sermons to his faithful sheeple, ordering them to walk through the fires of tribulation in order to keep his bank accounts loaded to the max.

Ask yourself "Who is the sucker?" "Who is being robbed?" "Who is gaining wealth and fame from this exercise?"


onthestreet said...

Well my child, you sound very vile and disobedient yourself, and one who has now confessed that you even spit upon others. That was never the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Peace, and your peace is very much disturbed and disturbing. The spitters are the vile, those who spit upon Christ, KNOWING that they were right.

Faithful Woman said...
That may be the worst vulgarity I have seen from street yet. 6/19/2006 9:20 PM

STREET's Reply: Where? Show us the date of the post when I was falsely vulgar, and I will confess and repent if that can be shown to be true. Then, I would thank you for the correction.

Anonymous said...

No, street, you are not falsely vulgar, you are genuinly vulgar.

Anonymous said...

ots anybody home or is this addressed to a vaccum.

wj is not christ. What I think of him and his misuse of funds and people is well documented. I need not go into further detail here.

my question to you is this: who died and made you God? all I hear from you is a continual stream of blame and condemnation upon all who reject wj as anything but a petty criminal. I doubt that a bar-association would ever offer you a license to practice law because of your petty, childlike rantings and name calling. Take a few years and grow up. you may have great computer skills, but I personally know of twelve year olds who know enough about computer skills to make your efforts look puny and pathetic. your ability to convince anyone of anythinng is lacking. You simply don't know how to do anything but cut and paste and be a polly-parrot. learn to think for yourself.

Consider this to be the counciling of a mature individual to a child.


Anonymous said...

vaccum should be spelled vacuum.


Uncle Ratt said...

It sounds like you are a "gentile," not associated with the polygamous groups (Texas, CC). As a former member of the polygamous group at CC I can relate perfectly with OTS. He has been schooled and trained from birth to obey the words of his leaders, rational or nonrational. The teachings we received over the years from the CC polygamist leaders wer always contradictory. We cannot condemn him without understanding his background.

I would like to defend him from this point of view - that he is about the only one on this blog site that is vigourously WJ. OTS,
I give you this courtesy. There was a time when I would have been just as deceived and convinced of the things that you proclaim. Keep studying the scriptures. I knokw this is against WJ's counsel, as you are only to believe what he proclaims and I believe that you will eventually find the truth as I have.

Anonymous said...

It is just me or did the rules change with each prophet/leader? When Rulon came into power after Le Roy didn't things get more restrictive then with Warren it was even worse? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anonymous said...

Looks to me like you're 'right on the money."

Anonymous said...

uncle ratt

I am a gentile in the same manner as was Timothy or any non Hebrew person.

ots is a zealot following a vapor that is non existant. His dream is built upon a myth founded upon a downright lie. This fact is well documented in "real" history. Your LDS "revised history would argue otherwise.

Joseph Smith was often arrested and jailed before he received his "marvelous revelation" for engaging in acts preceived as "witchcraft", conjering, being a seer et. al., all questionable activities. Even those who were supposed witnesses to his golden plates have since recanted the fact. They "the plates" never existed.

Even at the time of his death he murdered two men with a gun that had been smuggled into his jail cell. Those who responded to his shots fired in self defense.

I don't believe that Joseph Smiith received any scripture or anything from God or any of His angels. I firmly believe that John Rigdon "borrowed" (used in the most loose intrepetation) the text of a romantic novel, originally written by Solomon Spalding, from the Patterson or Peterson Printers, inserted just enough plagerised scripture to make less educated individuals gullible to the hoax.

Why has the Book of Mormon undergone over 4000 corrections, mainly to sentence structure and spelling if Smith had the gift to interpret a foreign language (Reformed Egyptian) that no one before or since ever witnessed? The audacity of any work of any importance being translated by just one person while looking through a seer stone in the bottom of an upturned hat is so silly it deserves a bronx cheer. The whole thing was a put up deal to make Joseph Smith famous. Had he come to trial and witnesses been given the opportunity to testify and be cross-examined his false claims and visions would have collapsed. His success is the work of the devil himself.

The "Pearl of Great Price" been found to have been obtained from burial documents written in Egyptian. The alleged translation bears no association with it's supposed interpretation. There are no books of Abraham or Moses. There were no Nephites or Labanites. All of the Doctrine & Covenants are written to ensure a greater hold, by the priesthood, on the lives of the members of this cult.

There were no keeless, rudderless, sailess, oarless boats transporting ANYBODY over uncharted seas.

There is ABSOLUTELY no archalogical evidence of either of the above peoples, their Kings, their Hebrew type of government anywhere on either American continent. Surely if these people's departure from Israel were so important it would have been mentioned in the books of II Chronicles or Jeremiah.

So, "Uncle Ratt" if that makes me a "gentile' so be it. The bogus hodgepodge of supposed mormon scripture and history is up to you to explain. I have uncovered the truth.


onthestreet said...

Anonymous said (6/23/2006 1:00 PM):
It is just me or did the rules change with each prophet/leader? When Rulon came into power after Le Roy didn't things get more restrictive then with Warren it was even worse? Correct me if I'm wrong.

STREET’s Reply: The Lord direct each to “PRUNE THE VINEYARD”, more and more, until the pruning is all done, even if there be only ten men left. There was only four left at the time of Noah, and Christ says it best: “Satan SHALL deceive THE WHOLE WORLD” (Rev. 12:9).

RATT Said (6/23/2006 11:49 AM):
I give you this courtesy. There was a time when I would have been just as deceived and convinced of the things that you proclaim. Keep studying the scriptures. I knokw this is against WJ's counsel, as you are only to believe what he proclaims and I believe that you will eventually find the truth as I have.

STREET’s Reply: Your courtesies are only insults. Your “past deceits” are only a continuation of your present ignorance and folly. You say: “I KNOKW”. Well, that about wraps up your knowledge. The FLDS Prophet has ALWAYS required the people to study, believe, and practice the scriptures, and ALL OF IT, which is the very thing that he proclaims today.

Anonymous said (6/23/2006 10:27 AM): vaccum should be spelled vacuum. rcn

STREET’s Reply. We know your sucking sounds whenever you open any orafice of your being. Just keep it clean, my boy, keep it clean.

onthestreet said...

RCN Said (6/24/2006 7:35 PM):
ots is a zealot following a vapor that is non existant. His dream is built upon a myth founded upon a downright lie. This fact is well documented in "real" history. Your LDS "revised history would argue otherwise.

STREET’s Reply: See, the Prophet is much more than a vapor, by your own confession, and something that is REAL is TRUE, and far more than a myth. Your “real facts” are the vapors of your sucking sounds, and the vacuum of your mind, I must say. Everything else you said in the above post is just the repeating of fantasy that you have heard or read others fantasise about. For example, you say (and I quote), that Joseph Smith didn’t receive ANYTHING from the God, while EVERYONE here and the world over knows that Joseph Smith receive life from God Himself. We all did. See, your lies are obvious.

Now, speaking of 4,000 corrections, God Himself has been correcting us since 4,000 BC. There you have it, and by your own confession the BofM corrections are only in spelling and sentence structure, he having been an uneducated boy at the time. Yet, the Lord allowed enough errors to throw off the likes of an RCN and all who lack faith and love not the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness (2 Thes. 2:10):

10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You say: “Surely if these people's departure from Israel were so important it would have been mentioned in the books of II Chronicles or Jeremiah”. And I say, surely if there were other books of scripture besides the Holy Bible, that they would have been mensioned in that Book itself, and lo and behold, they are! The things of God are infinate and endless. How can you put something that is enless between two covers of a book? Most doctors, and even some readers here, would consider your reasoning as psychotic and pathological, bogus and gentile through and through.

Uncle Ratt said...

Thanks for the "Mormon history lesson." It's plain to see whose history you have studied. Everything you quote was written by early Mormon apostates. Joseph Smith did not copy Spaulding's work. The opposite is true. Spaulding's novel was written after Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon was written. He broke into the printing office and copied from Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon manuscript.
Your Baptist interpretation of Mormonism only reveals your ignorance concerning what the gospel is. If you do not agree with Mormonism how about outlining a plan that is more appealing and is more likely to redemption in the presence of Jesus Christ rather than just bad-mouth (Mormon-bashing) a religion that is uplifting, satisfying, and brings a spirit of peace to those who believe? Mormons do not criticise nor bash your Baptist beliefs but rather are satisfied with the truth as they know it. I have no animosity toward you or your beliefs. I only wish that you could experience the peace that I enjoy.

Uncle Ratt said...

Your criticism of a typo reveals the depth of your intellectual makeup. Let's stick with the issues rather than the insignificant "slip of the tongue." When a person resorts to insulting language it is evidence that he has lost the debate. Better luck next time.

Anonymous said...

This is NOT said in a tone of confrontation or anger: You say a lot of things about the Mormons, but it seems to me that you have never read their book, nor know their history. Can you name the three witnesses to the gold plates? Did you know that one of them knew there were rumors going around that he denied seeing them so he published a statement in a newspaper saying that he had NEVER denied seeing what he saw? All three of the witnesses left the church, but never denied what they saw.

And here is something that is very, very important. I know this is a blog on a polygamous offshoot of the Mormon church and the FLDS have really strayed from the original teachings, but I have to say this. Can you honestly judge something you have never seen? Can you judge something negatively, if you are a Christian, that says "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do...And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins."

"But behold, there shall be many-at that day when I [meaning God] shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men ... that the words of your seed [Nephi's descendents] should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel; And because my words shall hiss forth-many of the Gentiles ["Gentiles" meaning most of the people on the Americas who are not Native American] shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? ... Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews? Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another?"
That does not sound like a romantic novel to me.

There is a lot of contention on this blog site. It would be nice if the Spirit of the Lord were invited in - but with so much bickering, I don't know how it can be. The world is fast going down the tubes. Your physical safety and mine, as well as our eternal life may well depend on how well we listen to God. The issue isn't fight, fight, fight and tear each other to shreds. The issue is - have you got a personal relationship with God? Are you willing and able to ask HIM if the book came from Him? And how can you ask if you have never read it, but instead believe a bunch of stuff that may or may not be true? Ultimately, all is between you and God.

To all in general:
There is a lot of mockery of God on this site. I don't think God will "thrust you through" for it, but I think that when you see Him again and realize how much you love Him and know him and that He loves you so much, you will feel so humiliated and ashamed that you will wish you could die - but you can't because there won't be any more death. Please look in your souls. The stuff that is happening with this apostate polygamous group is not good, but we don't need to damn each other and tear each other to shreds.

Anonymous said...

A non confrontational reply to the above:

God, through the lives of the writers of the Old and New Testements and their documented testimony provided a perfect and complete plan for the salvation of the world. Why did Joseph Smith & Co. think that that scripture, based upon the most ancient of texts was imperfect. Why did he go through the English version of the KJV and decide, upon his own volition, that certain passages were in error. He had no theological training. He could barely read and write. He was convicted of using seer stones in efforts to find precious metals in New York and Pennsylvania prior to his sudden revelation. Why would such a person be reputable.

John Rigdon had been expulsed as the pastor of a Baptist church prior to his connection with Alexander Campbell and later Joseph Smith. By using these persuations you could say that he was a Baptist, Campbellite, Mormon.

The Spalding text has been repeatedly renounced as being not the work of anyone other than Solomon Spalding. Spalding is known to have left the draft with the printers, Rigdon was known to have visited that same printing shop and subsequently to have had ongoing relationship with Smith.

There is just no impeachable source to substantiate Smith's Claim. The report of translation through seer stones in the bottom of a hat smacks of sideshow magic of which Smith was known to take part in over a long period of time.

I could go on and on. The effort would be useless. Unless you and others come to realize that the Word of God and the Salvation of God was made complete on the cross of Calvary and no further intrepetation is either necessary or accurate, we are engaged in a game of futility.

Anonymous said...

Uncle Ratt,

The following quotation is taken from the preface of the Book of Mormon which was obtained by myself at the Salt Lake Temple in the summer of 1956. The flyleaf states that this particular rendition is copyrighted in 1948 by George Albert Smith. Of the first English edition of 1830, as divided in chapters and verses by Orson Pratt in 1879, first issued in double column pages with chapter headings, chronological data, revised foot note references, pronouncing vocabulary and index in 1920.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: that we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their bretheren, and also the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we declare with words of soberness that an angel of God came down from heaven, and brought and laid before our eyes, that we
beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon and we know that is is by the grace of God the Father; and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true.And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgement-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen

Oliver Cowdrey
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

And Also:

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. and this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. and we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Concerning one Solomon Spalding: born Ashford, East Ashford Connecticut on Feb. 20. 1761, died in Amity, Washington County, PA on October 20, 1816 at the age of 55.
Educated: Plainfield Academy, later served in the Revolutionary army under Coloner Obadiah Johnson's Regiment, read law with Judge Zephaniah Swift of Windham, Connecticut entered the sophomore class at Dartmoth College, Hanover New Hamshire, in 1782 to gain a classical education. Awarded a BA degree in 1785 Spalding studied divinity and was licensed to preach by Windham Congregationalist Association on October 9, 1787 In 1788 he was wawarded MA degree. On February 21 1795 he married Matilda D. Sabin (or (Matilda D. Sabine) of nearby Pomfret, Connecticut. Entered a general store with brother and was principle of Cherry Valley Academy. In 1798 Spalding appointed Justice of Peace for Cherry Valley.

In 1803 he and two brothers began purchaseing land tracts in western New York, northwestern PA. and in the Western Reserve of northeasern Ohio. The land was divided into tracts and sold to settlers, mainly on credit.

While assisting in construction of a forge Spalding was seriously injured which prohibited him from engaging in physical work.

Following the war of 1812, Spalding finding himself in serious debt without means to pay and so begin to try his hand at writing. In the early autum of 1812 he and his family had settled into a small suite of cheap rooms in Pittsburgh's tawdry Virgin Alley just off Market Square where, to try to make ends meet, he reportedly sold pictures while Mrs. Spalding sewed clothing for soldiers. It was there that "A Manuscript Found" evolved into a lengthy romantic yarn, written in florid, semi-biblical english, similar to that found in the King James bible. According to those familiar with it, the book was based upon the idea that the North American Indians were descendants of the lost 10 tribes of Israel. "It gave an imaginary account of their journey from Jerusalem by land and sea until they arrived in America under the command of 'Nephi' and 'Lehi,' and it made mention of a tribe of people called 'the Lamanites.' Two of the principal characters in the book were 'Mormon' and his son 'Moroni.'"

Shortly after his move to Pittburgh, Solomon Spalding offered "A Manuscript Found" to the bookselling and publishing firm of R. & J. Patterson. Spalding was never able to complete the necessary financial arrangements for publication and a copy of "A Manuscript Found" remained on a shelf in the Pattersons' print shop for an indeterminate period. (Note: Spalding Died in October of 1816, some 14 years before the book of Mormon was published) Therefore, Smith would have had to copy from Spalding, not the other way around.

More to come. Names, dates, quotations etc.


onthestreet said...

Your criticism of a typo reveals the depth of your intellectual makeup. Let's stick with the issues rather than the insignificant "slip of the tongue." When a person resorts to insulting language it is evidence that he has lost the debate. Better luck next time. 6/27/2006 1:55 PM

STREET's REPLY: Ohh ohh, he's foaming again. Is this the typo that you're lathering with your raby-sauce: You said:

I knokw this is against WJ's counsel, as you are only to believe what he proclaims and I believe that you will eventually find the truth as I have.

So what did I say in replaaa?
I said: Your courtesies are only insults. Your “past deceits” are only a continuation of your present ignorance and folly. You say: “I KNOKW”. Well, that about wraps up your knowledge. The FLDS Prophet has ALWAYS required the people to study, believe, and practice the scriptures, and ALL OF IT, which is the very thing that he proclaims today.

We were laughing WITH you, son, not acha. To "KNOKW" just doesn't show much knowledge, now does it?
Laugh and the World Laughs With You

Melody - Ella Wheeler Wilcox & D'Auvergne Bernard, 1904:

Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep, and you weep alone:
For this stolid old earth
Has need of your mirth,
It has troubles enough of its own.
Sing, and the hills will echo it:
Sigh, and it's lost on the air;
For they want full measure
Of all your pleasure,
But nobody wants your care.
Feast, and your halls are crowded,
Fast, and they'll pass you by;
Succeed and give,
And they'll let you live,
But fail - and they'll let you die.

Uncle Ratt said...

To anonymous, concerning Spaulding - Congratulations! It sounds like you have bought into the lie completely. You don't get it, do you? The entire scenario that you quote was concocted by evil men seeking to destroy the work of Joseph Smith and his gift of translation given to him by the Lord.

Anonymous said...

Or, more likely, Spaulding was attempting to expose Joseph Smith for the lying crook he really was. In that case, it is you, Uncle Ratt, who have bought into the great lie.

mugwump said...

uncle ratt

None are so blind as those who will not see.

There are too many footnotes and cross-references in "Who Really wrote the Book of Mormon", the Spalding Enigma, for it to be taken lightly and denounced without consideration given to it's exhaustive scholarship. There is not space, nor do I have time to argue with you. If you want to study the validity of the work, it is available from Concordia Pubsishing House, St.Louis. Arthors: Wayne L. Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis and Arthur Vanick; Copyright 2005.

Dedicated to the memory of the Rev. Wesley Walters and Dr. Walter Martin, whose work has been painstakingly continued in this volume; to Solomon Spalding, MA, that he may at last rest in peace; and To the good people of Amity, Washington County Pennsylvania, who never had any doubts as to who really wrote The Book of Mormon.

ATAR_i said...

Ok, I've got to bottom line it here.

1. If you believe that JS was who he said he was. You can believe that he found Gold tablets in the middle of a forest, translated them without knowing the language using only a stone and his hat, and further get's prophetic law from god.

2. If you do not believe JS was who he said he was (prophet) then you will not believe these things.

It's pretty simple - those who believe in Joseph will have faith for all the rest - and I don't think anything they believe will be shaken by anything I have to say.

Those who don't believe in Joseph, will not believe anything he states he translates, any prophecies, or any amazing discoveries he finds - and we will not believe in him, no matter what someone tells us.

It's that underlying belief that we come back to each and every time. It's fundamentally different. There will be no winning, and no agreement there.

muggsey said...


I agree, so where do we go from here? I do not for a minute see either you nor I agreeing to their take on Joseph Smith's claims. They will not even consider that they too can be saved only through their Faith in the atoning blood of Jesus by the Grace of God to shelter them forevermore in times of storm and sunshine. They will remain in the system that encourages self grandizement to achieve the perfection for which they aspire.

The ongoing of this blog insists though that we continue to challenge their claims and they ours. If the discussion stops and no one challenges their outlandish claims the blog becomes nothing but a message board.

Do I need to tone down my attack? Your knowledge of their lives far exceeds my own and you seem to be able to solicit some unique insights, especially from the women who live the lifestyle. My style is to intimidate, as is obvious. I hope my conclusive answers continue to be unwavering in demonstrating my Faith in Christ and in Him alone.

onthestreet said...

Rev. 3:
18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

ATAR_i said...

Mugsy, When I read Under the Banner of Heaven, it really became clear to me, in one of those last chapters.

What I believe, a muslim, a jew, FLDS - those are things were are raised to believe without question. I could not believe in a Buddah, or JS. I can believe in Jesus, virgin birth, Jonah ect. I couldn't do anything other than believe those things, it's down there in my core.

I think, the same goes for these folks. You cannot convince them that you are right, or the gold tablets never existed. The same faith that enables us to believe, enables them to believe something altogether different.

My big question - what does God do with that? I can't say I know the answer to that either. Religious dogma might state that they are bound for hell, but are they really? God must see the heart, I want to believe he sees the hearts truly chasing after him.

When I was young it was so crystal clear to me that My group (Christians) would be the only ones in heaven. But how can I be so certain, and, does it really matter what I believe in that respect? Does it change how I should act? - No, it shouldn't.

I don't think theological arguments, and historical disagreements are futile. But the bottom line's about faith. We both have it for two different beliefs - and I don't see those changing.

fttc said...

Don't think me intrusive if I enter a thought or two in your discussion.

I have been impressed with the tenacity which Mugs has shown in his beliefs. He has been unwavering in his responses and attacks :-) on Mormonism. I respect his opinions, stated beliefs and faith. Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven by which man can be saved, on this we agree and Fundamental Mormons do believe this. JS taught it and those contemporary with him carried it on. No one will be saved in any man's name. This is one point on which Mugs and I seem to be in agreement. I have long thought Mugs posting here was specifically to enter into the mix some other ideas than the topic of the blog. As he said to prevent it becoming a message board for the Fundamentalists. I appreciate his input as it has provoked much thought and discussion. Early on he and I agreed to disagree and we have done so respectively since. Atar is correct. Neither of us will change the other's faith.

I appreciate Atar's last post. She is very honest and forthright about her intentions. I don't think she is any more converted to Fundamental Mormonism than she was when she first posted. Her stated intention was to understand the ins and outs of our religion and she is finding them out. As has been posted before she is getting more of the outside looking in than the inside out version. But I think she is honestly trying to understand. So yes she knows more about our lifestyle than Mugs does.

Thank you both for your statements here. Perhaps they will help others to understand more where the two of you are coming from. Fewer people will be offended and maybe the discussion will be improved.

For myself I have enjoyed myself immensely in my discussions here. To a small degree this has had the same effect as Atar's reading of "Under the Banner of Heaven". I confess I have not taken the time (before this blog) to investigate other religions very much so this blog has been very informative for me. I have always disbelieved the idea that the Mormons are the only good people on the earth. Atar's thoughts about the few chosen are a reflection of what I have always believed. I believe that in every nation he who fears God and works righteousness will be accepted of Him. It seems Mugs takes issue with the works part but be that as it may. In substance we have some things in common.