Monday, May 15, 2006

Time To Tell All!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

Time has run out on the enforcement question and which agencies were aware of facts, but in no hurry to address them. Long ago I promised I had 10,000 related emails, along with 18 FLDS Books and 550 Cassettes, not to mention recorded phone dialog and the time has come to make these public.

The internet and online news networks allow for sound or audio clips, quick time movie clips and links to documents I have refered to for nearly 6 years. Time to name names and link those phone conversations with the world wide web.

Over time many agencies were ignoring my complaints, and yet today, those same agencies are looking at my documented complaints in the same light in which I wrote them. I stated that these enterprises traded young women for economic favor and suggested the RICO Act 6 years ago, the same claims I am hearing today.

I had stated I wanted congressional hearings and absent of that, I'll let the public know exactly who knew what and when, letting them decide whether the government agencies were doing their job or side stepping a very complex issue.

MIB

77 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hey, have any of you guys heard that three of Winston Blackmore's ladies have been denied immigration and are facing possible deportation? What are your opinions on it?

ATAR_i said...

You go!

I for one think that's an awesome idea.

What format will you use?

You might consider - now that he's a top 10 fellow, getting a weekly radio thing going on - get some reimbursement for all your documentation.

You could make some podcasts.

Definately do it!

Anonymous said...

Your living in a dream world you seem to thimk polygamy is going to be prosecuted then just go away... Not going to happen polygamy is thriving and growing bigger every damn day of the world.

Anonymous said...

You surely used the correct adjective concerning the status of the world. But, that's God's decision and not mine. He said it was so in His word, and I believe Him. I believe Him, not some self appointed wimp who won't face his accusers without hiding behind the skirts of his "wives" and children. SOME KIND OF REAL MAN - - - YEAH! JUST THE KIND OF EXAMPLE I'S WANT TO FOLLOW ha!

rcn

ATAR_i said...

For me this has nothing to do with polygamy.

But, if you call them wives, I think they should be treated as wives, and not declare that they are unmarried when they want food stamps and etc.

If a man can support several wives and their families, and the women are of legal age, and consenting - I don't care.

I think it's about a culture that has taken a dark turn, heading down a spiral into dark unethical, illegal, and unspiritual places. The leadership doesn't uphold the teachings they are supposed to espouse.

Is there any printed teachings that are current for the FLDS? Is there anything in black and white - a standard even warren has to live by? Is there anything which would be improper for him to do? ANYTHING?

Anonymous said...

No the checks and balances,however small,were largely gone, before Warren staged his coup.Warren is mentaly unstable.Ego-maniac with a
persecution complex.This is not going to end well.

ATAR_i said...

Mugsy, gonna have to disagree - sounds like political gobbledy gook.

As a republican, when I found out that Orrin had been down in CC, and even defended the people - I just lost all respect for the man.

As a political insider, unlike myself, all information was available to him, and brought to him, set on his desk, served to him on a platter. He is not a judge, he does not live in a court of law - he's a respresentative of the people - and he was given information that could assist the most vulnerable in his state.

He must follow the rules of law, but as we all know - had he wanted to pursue helping those vulnerable boys and girls who were being denied an education, married under the legal age, or abandoned on the streets he COULD HAVE brought pressure to bear, and he didn't

He turned his back, and probably received some lovely campaign donations for his decision not to take up the cause of the vulnerable.

I'm disgusted - there is no way in HELL he didn't know what was happening in his own back yard.

Someone in his position is compelled to act when they are given the types of information he was.

He said they were "nice people, and that he had friends who were polygamists" - So?

Mugs - had it been you sitting in that seat of power - would you have done nothing? NO - you would have done something - don't defend that weak pathetic excuse for a representative.

ATAR_i said...

Mugs - YOU are here, because you heard about this, and you just couldn't sit around on your hands.

Imagine if you had the resources of the state to bring issues to light, pressure to bear, or even take a second look.

Orrin chose NOT to do either of those things. In fact, quite the opposite, he called them his friends.

Bottom line is YOU are here - and I know you're not trying to say that there are no 'facts' - there are 'facts aplenty'.

If you attempt to pretend that there is no real evidence I will know that your statements are ONLY politically motivated - because ALL of your previous posts have never indicated that you have any difficulty believing that these horrors are indeed happening.

I don't know about you, but I'm not for sale to the republican party, or to anyone else, and I will not sacrifice my time to defend those who did nothing to alleviate the suffering of these children. They get NONE of my sympathies, and only my disdain.

Orrin was in a position to help, and he didn't. Bottom line. If you want to defend that....be my guest, but I would take a dimmer view of your ethics because you'd be doing a 180 strictly to paint Orrin in a less offensive light.

ATAR_i said...

I wasn't suggesting a civil suit, or anything like that.

I'm suggesting that Senator Hatch be ashamed at the lack of leadership he displayed and his gross intentional lack of interest.

I think shame should be the legacy of a leader who knows of an injustice and does nothing.

I want Senator Hatch to feel deep regret - his reputation will carry far more of a penalty than any amount of money.

Anonymous said...

Atar_i

I admire your spunk and your astuteness at seeing Orrin Hatch for what he really is - which is NOT concerned about the abuses that have been going on in Hildale/Colorado City for decades.

Orrin has been involved in Utah public office for decades as have the abuses been going on for decades. But Orrin never did anything "because he knows a lot of nice people in Hildale" and I guess he wouldn't want to alienated that friendship with his polygamous child abuser buddies.

Unfortunately, politicians in Utah - ESPECIALLY SOUTHERN UTAH - have known about these abuses for decades and have chosen to do nothing about them.

The polygamists serve up a lot of votes - a BIG block vote.

There is a similar issue with the Washington County Sheriff and FORMER Washington County Attorney.

Evidence of abuse slapped them in the face, but they turned a blind eye and did nothing about the abuses except whine and make excuses.

Have you read Washington County sheriff Kirk Smith's quotes in the press last week that he does not think it wise to form a task force to hunt down Warren Jeffs - a man on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List?

Sheriff Kirk Smith said "it should remain a local issue". It is my guess that this guy wants it to remain a local issue because he can just sit back and continue to do nothing about the abuses.

But, I want to get back to the topic and say to you, Atar_i, that I admire your seeing beyond the bull and recognizing a horse's ass when you see one.

Obstructionist said...

Mugwump

What you may or may not realize is the absent emails that were directed to the FBI. What other agencies that were already involved, a witnesses name and phone number and several attempts to get the FBI to respond previously. There was a reason not to include the info sent to the FBI, to be included in a public story.

But all in good time, I have been at this longer than you. 6 Years ago the FLDS would of laughed had I predicted this day and time would come. Mayor Dan Barlow publicly said I drank my own bath water, now that was an interesting defense!

The FBI response was really xlint, they had denied 3 FOIA requests from Associated Press and apparently lied about a pending investigation. Right there in print Goins speaks of GG and what she wasn't doing in Idaho.

Today Shurtleff is stating this is Organized Crime and that this may be under the purvue of the RICO Act. I said the same thing 6 years ago. The AG says that Warren was trading underage minors for economic advantages, again I said the same thing 6 years ago. I'd say my case is being proven today by those agencies noted in the Scoop article. Unless your IQ is under 100, you do realize the dates of those documents. These agencies are in print in agreement with me today, its what they did last year and the year before that is at issue.

No need to get your shorts in a bunchy, everything is moving along as it should. Just stay tuned and keep watching the headlines. I have 10,000 emails and have only played with less than 100 of them. JG graduated from FLETC you might GOOGLE search it, the feds have 3 Academys or did. I graduated from Santa Rosa CJC so I am well aware of Jeff's schooling. When I am ready to prove a point in court, there will be a detailed paper trail to support it.

All you have seen is a response from the FBI, but what was the FBI given? You don't know and its not worth you knowing, bet that makes you feel important! Its still about victims and the law, if that is to difficult to grasp, maybe we can pass around a hat and raise enough money for a one way airfare to Iran.



MIB

Anonymous said...

So every investigator who does his job and protects the innocent are guilty if they find someone innocent?

If I was in law enforcement why would I want to investigate?

If I find them innocent, I will get blasted by the press and those who believe everything bad that ever happens is because of polygamy and probably lose my job because of publicity.

If I find them guilty when they are not (AS MOST OF YOU DO) I will lose my job as Howard Pyle did in 53.

We should elect Jay Beswick as the new sheriff of Hildale. Then he can be on his own list of people who have done "nothing" to stop what doesn't happen.

ATAR_i said...

anon 2:00

It's not your job (as sherrif) to find them innocent or guilty - it's the courts.

But, apparently that's what you've BEEN doing (psssst....it aint working).

ATAR_i said...

Just started to read the Scoop article.

Goins email is incredibly long, I think a little too long - sounds like a CYA letter. Do you think it really would have mattered if you spent 10 minutes on the phone with him to 'follow up'.

Jay has the information (sounds like copious amounts), and the paper trail (to the chagrin of others).

Believe me, you don't need a full blown complaint or an official complaint - all that the American public wants to know is if you were aware of what was going on and did nothing.

Like Louisiana - they didn't technically ask for aid - but all the American public knows is that Washington didn't do anything. Could someone have said 'make an official request for aid' (perhaps they DID), but even so - the perception is that they didn't help.

So, poor Mitt, Orin and all with political aspirations - this will be your Katrina. Congratulations, karma has come back to bite your backside.

Anonymous said...

When you get stopped by the local policeman for speeding, he is judge, jury and executioner. He either decides (judges) to give you a ticket, or he doesn't. If he gives you a ticket does it prove you’re guilty? No
But by giving you a ticket, he has made a judgment that you are guilty. If not he would not give you a ticket. And if the judge says you are guilty, are you? No. For if its appealed and overturned, were you guilty?

On every level of society there has to be judgment from each and every individual, from the complainant, to the policeman, to the investigator, to the district attorney, and to the judge, and to the lawmakers themselves. People have gone to jail for murder, who were later proved innocent. Were they guilty?

There are laws against polygamy, and there are laws against speeding. But if you were speeding to get to the hospital because you had someone with a life and death emergency, YOU would disobey the law to accommodate your conscience, wouldn't you? Such are practicing polygamists.

All of the laws that have been made to stop polygamy, in all the history of the U.S., have been made because of public outcry, and from the tabloid press, and not because of actual unconstitutional actions.

This "problem" will never go away because peaceful, kind, and good Christian women happen to think polygamy is necessary. It's in the Bible.

The lawmakers who make the laws judge that there is wrongdoing or they wouldn’t make a law trying to stop it, the prosecution judges that there is wrongdoing, but that doggon fact that it has to be proven keeps getting in the way. More laws are enacted for the sole purpose of "creating" guilt.

The obvious reason there has been so very little prosecution in the past, is because there has been no proof brought forth to sustain the hearsay and accusations of wrongdoing, and at some level was dismissed. You can blame all the people in the world for not doing something about it, but what can they do about it? Most of society obviously want to get rid of the FLDS, it goes against most people's ideals. But unlike the press, and most people, the court system has to hear both sides of the story. And defend everyone’s rights as citizens, not just the complainant, no matter how much they yell and scream. They have to defend even those who don't make a public outcry. At least that's how it's supposed to work.

2:00

Anonymous said...

And that is why there has been no prosecutions before Rodney Holm. (And his conviction was based on a law that was passed in 2003, whereas the "crime" was commited back in 1998.) They were dismissed at some level for lack of evidence. Not because of lack of desire to prosecute.

So give the poor picked on government a break for not "doing something". They have that darn Constitution to deal with. (And the truth)

2:00

Obstructionist said...

The Utah Supreme court today upheld the conviction of Rodney Holm, denying the claim of religious bias. Guilty as charged, it was less about polygamy and more about taking an underage minor.

CNN is in St. George as I type and you read this blog.

Tapestry and Flora Jessop will be on the O'Reilly Factor tonight.

The Los Angeles Times just left my house here in California a few hours ago so I suppose you will call them yellow journalist too! They returned "In Light and Truth" which I had loaned them, lets see you call that book a pack of yellow lies! Authored by Rulon T. Jeffs and accurate as far as the FLDS believe it to be. How more accurate do you expect the press to be? Its FLDS text, copyrighted and published by Twin City Publishing in Hildale. You live in Sadddam's fastasy world where the law or in this case reality is whatever you scribble on a sheet of paper with your cray-ons.

By the way, someone must of read Scoop as there has been a sudden interest in the basis of that FBI letter. I 'd explain it, but its too adult for someone still trying to define Civics 101.

Just keep babbling and watch the news, you aint seen nothin' yet!

MIB

Anonymous said...

Preach on, Muggy, preach on. MIB (Jay Beswick) is frustrated that he and his poster girl, Flora Jessop, have been all but ignored by the news media in recent weeks. There have been other, more cogent arguments offered by people like Carolyn Jessop and Brent Jeffs than MIB and Flora will ever be capable of.

So, MIB starts spamming the blogs again (this isn't the first, nay not even the fourth of fifth instance.) He's frustrated and he's flummoxed. So, he's casting about for all the attention he can get. Hurrah for him. He managaed to get a few TV cameras. Flora makes it on O'Reilly. What do you want to bet she comes out with more of her salacious allegations and not one grain of proof.

I'm with you Muggy. The FLDS needs to go, especially as it is currently configured under Warren Jeffs. Unfortunately, so long as there are TV cameras and printer's ink involved, people like MIB and Flora will flock to them like moth's to a flame.

Remember, the most dangerous place on Earth is between Flora and a TV camera, unless it's between MIB and a computer terminal.

Preach on, Muggy, preach on!

ATAR_i said...

I'm not certain there would be a way to sensationalize the events of the FLDS - they are too salacious already.

As to wether they can be proved in a court of law - we'll never know unless it's tried.

Is there evidence - YES - are there witnesses - YES. Are the witnesses willing to substantiate the evidence, or will they be hostile?

If a 16 year old gives birth, and lists the father as a 46 year old man - objective data is available. However - you would need to *know* the names of the girls, then obtain court orders for medical records. Barring a willing witness - someone needs to GET this information - to chase it down.

For all the boys, social service agencies who have attempted to contact parents and been rebuffed would be objective willing witnesses.

I don't find anything sensational about MIB - I think he's someone (not someone in law enforcement or the judiciary or social services). He's just Joe Citizen jumping up and down trying to get attention FOR THOSE WHO SUFFER.

He can relate the facts as he has witnessed them, and collect the data that substantiates his testimony. More power to him for being willing to spend his time, money and energy in defense of the helpless. It's more than I can say for Utah's leadership.

I won't ease up on government - they should have had a strategy to deal with these allegations a long time ago. This is WAY overdue. When little 16 years olds are giving birth in hospitals - isn't there some sort of mandatory reporting that should have been happening?

Couldn't they have asked social services to make home visits, document, and agressively pursue parents who have 'dumped' their children so there would be an extensive paper trail.

And what about all the food stamps and aid - don't they need to provide documentation - age of the children, age of the mother etc....they actually hand deliver that information to our government - WE HAVE IT - couldn't we find the *minor mothers* that way?

ATAR_i said...

Yes exactly - that's what I was getting at (reluctant witnesses) - therefore objective documentation might be able to be obtained that doesn't solely rely on fragile reluctant individuals.

Anonymous said...

believe me that MIB is NOT after nororiety. Actually, for his safety, he prefers to NOT have notority.

MIM does not get in front of TV cameras.

He is after seeing that innocent people are protected and evil no-gooders are prosecuted and held accountable.

MIB wants no "claim to fame". MIB only wants truth and justice - 2 things that are lackng in the FLDS and the law enforcement agency (Washington County Sheriff Office) that has had legal jurisdiction over these abuse matters for MANY years.

It is now an election year and Washington County, Utah needs a NEW sheriff.

The current sheriff is old and weak. And totallly useless.

Anonymous said...

In 1953 the town of Short Creek was raided to free the "White Slavery" that allegedly was occuring there. If you go to the SLTrib web site you can read the governor's speech to the state of Arizona.
The men were gathered up and thrown in jail. The women were gathered up, and the children were all going to be adopted out because of "allegations" (YELLOW JOURNALISM).

See what happened then?
Not one woman would fight their husband, they would rather fight the "saviors" who were "freeing" them.

Most of you would define the word abuse to include polygamy, or "underage" marriage. IT DOES NOT.

For abuse to be proven, there must be a victim who believes they are abused. Right?

If a 17 year old girl wants to marry a 50 year old man, and have a child, and she loves that child, and she loves that man, and she feels that he treats her with the utmost respect and kindness. Where is the abuse?

There are hundreds and thousands of teenage girls having babies from men over ten years thier senior in each and every state in the U.S., outside of polygamy.

But when are they considered victims?

Are they victims if they are married in plurality? When they believe the Bible teaches it?

2:00

Anonymous said...

You ask a very good question. There ARE thousands of young girls in the U.S. who are so desireous of being acceptable to their peers that the in effect prostitute themselves. I cannot defend this nor do I condone it. I do know that when cases of child abuse, in the general population become known, investigations follow and if proven guilty the person at fault receives punishment.

What promotes this behavior? I think a couple of things are pretty good contributors.
1.) General lack of parental supervision and training,
2.) The super sexually charged and violent content of media available on the mass market that is really unsuitable for any sane person to view, but especially for impressionable children who are left home unsupervised.

Then, there are those innocennt children who have not been exposed to such garbage. They have instead been taught since the were old enough to understand that it was their responsibility to give themselves over to the male so that they themselves can bear children. These impressionable children are molested by the very adults who should be their protectors. Not only little girls but little boys are brutally sodomized and then cast out of their family when they themselves begin to show a natural interest in the opposite sex. That is the whole purpose of this blog, to enlighten people in the general public as to the hidden secret lives of child abusers and their innocent victims abused under the guise of religion.

rcn

Anonymous said...

CAN IT BE?
THAT IS TERRIBLE WE SHOULD STOP IT!

"IT" is all in your imagination. "IT" makes great stories for the newspaper.

Proof is in the pudding, not in the pile of whipping cream on top.

Most of these charges can be proven in the court of yellow journalism, but not in real court, or else they would have been already.

If you say something enough times, you believe it, whether it is true or not. That is not admissable evidence.

Whipping cream of lies.

You people are attacking the pudding, and claim you are attacking the whipping cream, and defending the pudding.

You're not.


2:00

Anonymous said...

fttc:
"The Rodney Holm case, which if I am not wrong was one of the first prosecutions in years for the FLDS, was not brought on by any other than the 'underage' girl he married."

You are mistaken. It was not Ruth vs Rodney. It was Utah vs Rodney.
Convicted by a law that was passed in 2003, for a "crime" committed in 1998. Ruth did not press charges.

2:00

ATAR_i said...

Would you like some pudding 2:00 - I heard all you got was some whip cream

Was Ruth Stubbs 16 when she married (or 14)?
Was Cindi Holm 15 when she married?
Was Sandy Meldrum 15 when she married?
Was Shirley Blackmore 15 when she married?
Was Louisa Johnson 14 when she married?
Was Rachel Cooke 14 or 15 when she married?
Was Ellen Cook 14 or 15 when she married?
Was Mary Chatwin 15 when she married?
Was Esther Allred 15 when she married?
Was Esther Barlow 15 when she married?
Was Julia Johnson 14 when she married?
Was Geniel Barlow 15 or 16 when she married?
Was Daisy Barlow 16 when she married?
Was Vilate Allred 15 when she married?
Was Roberta Mackert Johnson 14 or 15 when she married?
Was Paulene Barlow 17 when she married?
Was Annie Barlow 15 when she married?
Was Lucelle Musser 14 when she married?
Was Margy Anne Johnson 15 when she married?
Was Shanna Zitting 15 or 16 when she married?
Was Vicki Nelson 16 when she married?
Was Laree Johnson 14 or 15 when she married?
Was Dianna Lane 16 or 17 when she married?
Was Camille Steed 16 when she married?
Was Leseille Jessop 16 when she married?

In Arizona and Utah the age of consent is 18 (I have conflicting reports that it could be 16 - anyone have clarification?)

Statutory rape.

(a) Statutory rape is sexual penetration of a victim by the defendant or of the defendant by the victim when the victim is at least thirteen (13) but less than eighteen (18) years of age and the defendant is at least four (4) years older than the victim. (b) If the person accused of statutory rape is under eighteen (18) years of age, such a defendant shall be tried as a juvenile and shall not be transferred for trial as an adult. (c) Statutory rape is a Class E felony.

Do you understand what the fuss is all about yet???

ATAR_i said...

Once I've made my point - I'll delete that post - I truly don't want a bunch of girls names up there - but I do want to illustrate - THERE IS DEFINATELY PUDDING APLENTY

Anonymous said...

atar_i:
Please delete your post. Just a few years ago, the legal age in AZ and UT was 14 with parental consent. Several of the girls you listed were legally married as first wives to young men just a few years older than themselves. Should they have waited? That's not for you or I to decide, much like we don't get to decide thousands of other young marriages outside of the FLDS. You don't make any points by throwing a bunch of crap (pudding) at the wall to see what sticks.

ATAR_i said...

I don't think your age of 14 is correct.

I've only seen 16 with parental consent.

14 is just a LIE

Anonymous said...

atar_i

How many pressed charges?

"ZERO"

Don't they have to agree that they were victims?

Put their husbands in jail and who will come and visit? (pssst...The victims)

Now jump up and down screaming and yelling at the computer. See if that will make them victims.



2:00

Anonymous said...

By the way. I am one of those "victims". Attack me, won't you?

Not even a nuclear bomb dropped on Short Creek (and anywhere else you might think we are) will stop the FLDS religion. Sorry pud.

2:00

ATAR_i said...

2:00 it's about the law, it's about Statutory Rape. It's quite objective, and no complaint is actually necessary.

You can get me to agree that consenting adults can have as many partners as they like, you can get me to agree on a lot of things - but not this.

I was 14 once, and my daughter is 14 now (I have 3 daughters). Any adult father, or grandfather who was taking one of those little girls home at night should die in prison.

If the husband is underage himself, or only a couple years older, I wouldn't be so upset - but it's still a less than optimal circumstance. Remember, you guys value education - so you want all your kids to graduate (at least from HS).

BTW - I wouldn't yell at you, and I don't want to berate you. I'm just expressing my way of seeing things, which just happen to coincide with the law on this issue.

Statutory rape.

(a) Statutory rape is sexual penetration of a victim by the defendant or of the defendant by the victim when the victim is at least thirteen (13) but less than eighteen (18) years of age and the defendant is at least four (4) years older than the victim. (b) If the person accused of statutory rape is under eighteen (18) years of age, such a defendant shall be tried as a juvenile and shall not be transferred for trial as an adult. (c) Statutory rape is a Class E felony.

ATAR_i said...

2:00

It would not suprise me in the least to have a victim visit her husband in jail.

It doesn't mean he is innocent of statutory rape.

I don't mind if you guys get married young (as in 18), but why the urge to marry at the age of 14? Seriously, what is the great rush?

Please take care of yourself - just read my schpeel below, if you have any questions let me know.

Have you heard of Human Papillomavirus (HPV)?

Any woman who is sexually active can have changes to her cervix because of this virus. When your body is still developing your cervix has many tender cells called columnar epithelium that are incredibly susceptible to this virus. they sit on the outside of the cervix. As you age, those cells migrate inside the cervix and are no longer exposed (around 18sh). A mature cervix is still at some risk - but NOT NEARLY the rist of a young cervix.

So take care of yourself and get a yearly pap test.

Anonymous said...

Debate it, disect it, moan about it or cry about it, but the other shoe is about to drop. Its simple logic if you have read the news. Activist like Flora and MIB had stated 5 years ago in writing and in the news, what the Utah Attorney General is stating today. Organized Crimes and Exploitation of female minors. Child Abandonment of well over 100 boys and welfare fraud. Nice and neat paper trails to prove each claim.

Winkie in Canada has given blood as have many of the children he sired. The claim of unwed mothers to defraud government social service programs, is under scrutny. Why else would Winston claim he might be charged any day and that explains his press conference.

Canada records show one of his brides was 14, shy of her 15th birthday and a second was indeed 15. On CBC TV Winston lied about the underage issue and therefore like many here, has no credibility. Sam Roundy the former Colorado City Chief of Police lied on camera to Mike Watkiss of News 3 TV, "none of my Officers have taken under age brides, no I don't want to comment on this". Dan Barlow lied on camera and this was repeated by others. When the truth was easier, the FLDS faithful lied to protect the faith. Now when statements are made, is it a lie or the truth? Who knows who cares!

Per the prosecution of Rodney Holm, before him it was Thomas Green, in circa 1980 Roy Potter of the Murray Utah Police Dept. and as I recall Rich Jessop was charged with the Mann-Act long ago.

Because laws are not enforced, it does not mean they do not exist. The lack of prosecution falls to issues under the RICO Act, where by influence was purchased or where by monies were exchanged for services. Take Rodney Parker a lawyer client relationship, however he breached deniability when in August 2003 he wrote a letter to General Shurtleff to defend his client on religious grounds. He admitted both their guilt and the violations under the law, to justify known illegal actions. In theory a lawyer is supposed to believe in his clients innocense, so as to not lie in front of a judge knowing the real facts to be different. Parker was a federal attorney with the President George Bush senior administration. He simply has ignored the law and pedalled influence for money, we usually call this a lobbist. Parkers name still appears as registered agent on certain FLDS businesses, making him complicit with the business and financial interest.

Thompson the Hildale attorney and special council was quoted in the Spectrum as being respectful of the FLDS and vice-versa, admitting he might disagree with the child bride issue. He is quoted in the Spectrum in May 2003. He a former partner of David Nuffer, a later Governor Leavitt appointment to judgeship. Thompson like Parker knows the law, he was the elected District Attorney of Washington County from 1973 to 1978. These guys took money to pedal influence as attorneys each knowing the law going into their client relationship. Thompson was Nuffers old partner. Real convenient, one representing each of the twin cities. Thompson stated 1981 as his first year in Hildale, he was there durring Stubbs vs Jeffs.

Colorado City attorney David Nuffer represented 1991- til 2001 to 2003 depending on status of full and part time. Mike Leavit made him a judge and he bacame full time. Nuffer was the Utah Bar Association President in 2000 and 2001, while he was representing Colorado City interest. He was on committees with the Attorney General, Jan Grahm then and her staff. Nuffer is part of the LDS Bishopric in St. George, no deniability here for the mainstream church. The firm was Snow & Nuffer and Nuffer the junior partner. Nuffer was a former Deputy District Attorney knew the law and was well aware of the laws being violated in Colorado City, Utah was so impressed they made him a judge! Steve Snow, Nuffer Senior Partner became Council of Seventy of the Mormon or LDS church circa 2000 or several years into his time in representing Colorado City interest. In theory Steven Snows tithing monies included his profits made from clients such as Colorado City. Steven was placed in charge of the LDS South America Missions program. By the way Steven too was a former Deputy County Attorney who knew the law.

The 87 Witnesses that signed affidavits for Sam Barlow under investigation by Arizona DPS in 1987 was another fine example of influence pedalling and in many cases, the witnesses placed letters of support on their agencies letterhead in violation of the law. Jim Gober of BATF, Phil Jordan of DEA, Bob Rehm of Arizona DPS, Chuck Sullivan of DFS, the Iron County Sheriff, the Cedar City Police Chief and on and on this list goes. It was ORGANIZED CRIME, but the players reach far outside the FLDS and it is they today that need to be concerned.

When U.S. Senator Orrin Hatch was challenged in his Town Hall Meeting in St. George, he made it abundantly clear that evidence of crimes should be brought to him personally. This countered several letters he had authored in 2000 and 2001 where he stated the practise was illegal. In 2003 he was lashing out with his true belief that polygamy should be allowed inspite of the law he quoted in his own letters sent previously. To comply, info about other crimes were provided and Mr. Hatch quickly retreated having his legal council respond in writing to distance himself from the issue.

The FBI told it both ways, one that an investigation was under way and to AP under an FOIA request that nothing was being investigated. But they copied the hard drive of one of the most vocal activist in late 2002 and in fact had substantial info of many activist because of that action.

Since Thompson was the President of the 5th District Bar Association, DA's like Eric Ludlow were members and had working relationships with Thompson which included Southern Utah judges. Ludlow in 2004 was up for judgeship and his record went under scrutny as the Washington County DA, having never addressed the polygamy or related abuses issues. Initially he denied ever being contacted and 2 cases had paper trails to counter his statements, but he was rubberstamped in, any way.

In the 1987 probe by Arizona DPS, both County Attorneys had signed affidavits supporting Sam Barlow, then it was William Ekstrom Jr who publicly refered to Colorado City as "Mayberry" from Mohave County and Paul Graff, now with the Utah AG, who was then Washington County DA.
The FLDS had a unbreakable network of influence that as a matter of policy, never let a girl runaway without being returned, while young men were routinely deposited and abandoned in the desert, with few safety net options.

Even Sheriff Kirk Smith today wants to contain this issue inspite of recent revelations about Warren and abuse. Wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear one day that Smith resigned without explanation or that he too had a new roommate named "Bubba". Reports sent to MEC or Missing and Exploited Chiildren in Washington DC were routinely routed to the local sheriffs of the reporting county and someone needs to look at Sheriff Smiths archives to these. When Sam Roundy Junior tried to explain where Colorado City sexual abuses cases went he was hard pressed to explain why local DA's didn't get the filed cases. I suspect Smith would have the same problems explaining why and how abuse cases refered to his agency from MEC never made it to former DA Eric Ludlow.

If Warren is charged with Organized Crime, there remains these power players that controlled what info left their jurisdiction. They were the enablers and right now they are pointing fingers away from them, its all Warren's doing, we were mislead..

Bottom line, the FLDS survived by buying influence from influential people, many of whom were lawyers, with ties to the mainstream church.

When this all spills out, it might even divert attendion away from Warren. I can think of at least 3 others that are not FLDS that should be ahead of Warren on the FBI's 10 MOST WANTED list!

Anonymous said...

Reply to 2.00

"Put their husbands in jail and who will come and visit? (pssst...The victims)"

...not unless of course
warren tells them not to

then their husbands
might as well be dead

keep sweet eldorado
stg

ATAR_i said...

12:32 Incredible compilation - I read every word!

Anonymous said...

I am totally flabergasted and amazed with the list of girls names and yet I could add twenty more that have happened in the last couple years that are under 18. It is like Warren knew they were going to get him when he took Millie Jessop, Merrils daughter at 15, so he married a bunch of 15 and 16 year olds to other men, hoping he was not going to be the only one caught and he would have company in jail. The sad part is that the fathers got kicked and the girls needed comfort, so they married them off.

Even the girls that leave "lost girls" do the same thing. They can't survive by themselves so they hookup with a guy (never mind getting married) they lost everything, including parents and friends that won't talk to them, so they find new friends and continue their life.

I am sure pround of Richard Holm reaching out and helping those that he does.

I wish we had a better system to help, but I guess each person that is a "survivor" will figure it out for themselves.

Anonymous said...

Cast out, taken in by a good man?What is she trained to do? From what I gather, from reading comments on this blog, most can barely sign their name. What kind of a job can they qualify to do. Be a housekeeper, a cook, a gardner, etc. Valuable if (IF) a good man finds or makes a home for her. If not, she'll be beaten, prostituted, enslaved, raped and eventually thrown away as useless. Who is at fault? I think it's the system that allowed this travsity to occur in the first place.

If not I imagine one of the Mexican groups will take her under wing and exploit her as a white slave in the Mexican Society houses of Prostitution.

How does "daddy" sexually abuse his daughter and then peddle her off as a virgin?

Anyone who knows about human anatomy understands that the feminine hymen may be broken under circumstances other than sexual union. This damage is not at all unusual for a woman who is a horseman/woman. When "daddy" puts her up for auction does a reputable physician or midwife examine the girl to determine if her maidenhead is intact?

The very thought that any daughter of mine would be so degraded is appalling. To have it done, find her lacking in proof of virginity, and standing there with a smug self-righteous and pious look on my face, if I were the one guilty of deflowering her, deserves disimbowelment.

rcn

Anonymous said...

atar_i
AZ: Can marry at 15 or younger with a court order (wouldn't have been too hard to get from Judge Steed); can marry at 16 with parental consent.

UT: Can marry at 15 with a court order; can marry at 16 with parental consent.

Texas: Can marry at 14 with parental consent. Now that's probably why warren started YFZ.

I wonder how long it will take for Texas to change their law....

I think we can all agree that it is pretty sick to marry a 14-15 year old no matter what state it happens in or what the circumstances are. Delete your post. Even the worst jounalist won't print minors personal status or names involved in suscpected crime. You are above that, or you used to be.

Anonymous said...

Atar_i,

Where in the world did you find the list of those girls? Obviously, your source is not very reliable. I personally know of about 15 of those girls and you have it all wrong!!!

Go get a life, girl. It's seems pretty pathetic that you don't have anything better to do with your time.

ATAR_i said...

anon 1:46 - tell me how I got it all wrong - I'd love to know.

It would be pathetic if I didn't have anything else to do with my time - I work outside the home, live on a farm, raise four children, have a successfull business outisde my job, and am on the board of a non-profit (having nothing to do with polygamy), and my kids are involved in all sorts of acitvities.

YET - I still manage to be able to type a few lines here and there - I MUST BE SUPERWOMAN!

So....are you pathetic - cuz Anon is constantly writing all the time on this site.

Anonymous said...

To anon 11:50:

Texas did change its law...last year, thanks to the efforts of State Representative Harvey Hilderbran. The new law raises the age 16 with parental consent. It was passed as part of Senate Bill 6 and was signed into law by Governor Rick Perry in May of '05.
Among the people who testified before the legislature on behalf of the bill were: UT Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, Jon Krakauer, Private Eye Sam Brower, and Randy Mankin, publisher of The Eldorado Success.

Anonymous said...

They are not minors anymore, if you note Ruth Stubbs who is already a very public name. What usually occurs with LE is someone inside produces such a list and that list gets refined. In a closed society you need a starting point and typically it looks like what got posted.

If you want to help us refine this list, then go to it. If you recognize names, but just want to talk about it, then what good are your comments?

So set the record straight and correct the ages or modify the names, not that anyone keeps their original last names there.

What do you suppose the public will think when the press starts digging deeper into the reassignment of wives and children? I hope you are still preaching that its just traditional and conservative values. It can't be white washed, there is nothing traditional in American family values that allow for women and children to be passed from one man to another or from 10 families to one man! You know Warren now following the pure seed doctrine.

Think about it, the news reports keep calling it religion and a need for 3 connected wives. But then why does Winston have 20 plus and Warren, what 70 or more? Lets do a pole or research project and figure out who have more and less than 3 and why? Its like guilt based on the numbers.

Its an easy question, go ahead and explain it. Tell us all who have 2 or less as well. Seems like the men who make the rules, don't stop at 3.

ATAR_i said...

I sure would love to know why a man needs 70 wives.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to know why any sane man would want 70 wives. One is a full time job.

Now if were an oil sheik with a eunuch to oversee their daily needs and all a man would have to do is keep them sexually happy I still don't think any sane man would want more than one.

Anonymous said...

It will take more than 70 women to straighten out a pedophile.

Anonymous said...

Maybe, I wouldn't know. If each of the women took a baseball bat and applied it liberaly to his privates, following each of his joyous experiences, he would probably change his thinking about whether such actvity was worth the pain. I'll bet his one track mind would be de-railed pretty quickly.

If a molested child's father would take the same baseball bat and re-arrange the pedophile's ribs, legs, arms and fingers and if that didn't work, split open his head, he and his pedophilic buddies might get the message: Don't you even think about messing with my child! Pervert.

Acid Reflux

Anonymous said...

Watch for Scoop in New Zealand and ABC TV in New York, rumor has it MIB has released more of his damaging emails and letters. Letters from a second U.S. Senator are rumored to be exposed. From Senator Hatch to ? How many U.S. Senators were aware of abuses and better yet when?

This may well be musical chairs, but a twist in the game, where different Senators take a turn in the "hot seat".

Anonymous said...

A better list to post would be the men that married the young girls.

Anonymous said...

On 5/17/2006 5:49 PM, 2:00 said:

"If you say something enough times, you believe it, whether it is true or not."

2:00, you said that about the media and newspaper stories. I absolutely agree with you!

Wouldn't the same be true of a religious upbringing? Wouldn't repetitioius preaching and teaching fall under the same truism?

Simon Says

ATAR_i said...

Bullseye

Anonymous said...

Like shooting at a target at a distance no greater than 10 ft., using #8 birdshot, ya can't miss as long as the gun is pointed toward the target. You can bet your boots that the profit's using all his power of persuasion and brain-washing ANYTIME he is addressing his sheeple. Has anyone explored the possibility that his most devout followers may be subjected to a form of hypnosis?

rcn

Anonymous said...

Aren't some if not all of his followers (especially the women and children) listening to his monotone voice on tapes all day every day?

Sounds pretty hypnotic to me.

Simon Says

Anonymous said...

Simon

Your analysis is very frightening and also very logical.

Anonymous said...

brainwashing is a strong super power type of hypnosis. Hypnosis from birth. WOW! I call it auto pilot, like when I drive my children to school, I do not have to think of where I am going. It just comes natually. I do it every day. I use the same streets to get there and arrive at the same time every day. How comfortable it is to not have to think about where to turn or if I will arrive.

Then the next day while driving to the service station, I turn towards the school because I was not thinking about where I was going. That is what is happening to the people in CCA. They are on auto pilot and have to pay attention before they will realize they are going to someplace they really don't want to go. I know I was there once. You have to think!!! to get off of auto pilot.

Anonymous said...

I was told this by a person who had raised turkeys for years. He said that every morning he would open the gate to let the birds out into the pasture. One day, he decided to open a new pasture to allow the birds "fresh pickins" so he opened the gate right next the one through which the turkeys had been going for most of their lives. The second gate opened to the left thus exposing the pasture on the right. He said the birds instead of turning to the right as they went through the opening, they turned to the left as they were used to doing. There was open space to the right, a new pasture to the right, he had scattered grain on the right side of the pathway to help get their attention turned to the right, but instead they just bunched up tight against the gate to their left so none of them could go anywhere.

He finally was able to attract the turkeys into the pasture on the right. He had to use his wit to prove that he was smarter than the turkeys. Before dawn he went into the turkey roost and captured about a dozen turkeys, carried them into the pasture to the right. He loosened those turkeys about the time the other turkeys were coming off their roost. He did not open the gate of the roost until mid morning. Only when the turkeys in the roosting place saw the loose turkeys in the pasture to the right would they even bother to look in that direction to see if there was something better there for them.

Do you see a possible parallel?

Are you a leader or a bunch of stupid trukeys?

rcn

Anonymous said...

Sounds like you still don't get it. Anyone that has been able to escape FLDS insanity must be a leader, because no one dares to question the direction they are going without great fear of death. Eternal death. What may be a leader to you may not apply here with EX FLDS people.
I know of many leaders that are evil leaders like, Hitler, and WJ Who lead people into the pits of hell without flinching. Not all leaders are good and being a leader is very individual. Have you ever heard of torture, like when someone knows that talking would get their tounge severed from their mouth? So is it in FLDS land. Escape before you speak and while you still have your tounge. It is tricky, not turkey that is the name of the game. Do it or die without your whole face. I am a leader and not like WJ because I choose to lead myself and leave others to find the way alone. Showing FLDS followers the capured turkeys in the right field never works but only angers them. They do not see turkeys having a better life but put to pasture until the slaughter. Then they are careful to stay in the left pasture so as not to be killed also. Do you think you get it now?

Anonymous said...

Well more feathers are being ruffled, LE now watching YFZ, think Warren Jeffs is there.

http://cbs11tv.com/video/?id=10000@ktvt.dayport.com"

Excellent news piece with interviews of pilot & Sheriff Doran.

Anonymous said...

fttc, anon. leader?

We are at a loss to know how to pursuade those enslaved to break free. The only tools at our disposal are our minds. We use these God given tools in many ways to attempt to attract attention to the possibilities that exist away from the slavery in which they find themselves.

Your answer tells me that according to your opinion those entraped individuals are so brain-washed that when given an open opportunity to improve their lives and the lives of their dear children would prefer to sacriffice their all into the hands of a demonic man. do they kow that Jeffs has such a bad reputation that their lives are in grave danger should they continue to do his bidding? Even now, if it could be proven, and with communications equipment and super cameras, evidence against any of them can be gathered. They contribute to harboring a fugative from the law and to do so reduces their chance at the possibility of escape? Failure to escape this hotbed of contriversy and open disobediance to the law cannot end happily. It's a sad but inevitable end.

rcn

Anonymous said...

No feathers ruffled here. Just the bare facts from a plucked birds view. What a concept.
Without pain there is no change. It all seams like a past life and being a leader amoungst turkeys is not such a bad place to be.
Takes the cake to being a turkey out to left pasture.

ATAR_i said...

You know Street - that MAY or MAY not be correct a couple thousand years ago.

I also recall the Bible states they could stone people in the streets.

Women are not sent away to a tent during their menses.

People don't wash other people feet any more (ok I've seen it done, but it's unusual).

BTW - if you want to forsake everything - don't cherry pick. I'll expect to see you riding a donkey (and not in a car), and I'll expect to see you with a flock of sheep or collecting taxes door to door, no heat, no AC, no stoves, dishwashers, computers (oh yeah - that means you need to leave this blog).

Anonymous said...

If the Holy Ghost or God Himself can impregnate a girl at age twelve, so be it, but if a mortal man does it, he needs to wait until she is older.

Anonymous said...

Where does this tradition of 12 years old for Mary originate?

Anonymous said...

I'd heard as young as 14, but never 12. Considering that God, the creator of all beings understood that the cervix of a human female does not really mature before about the age of 16, I would think that that may have been her age. This fact has only been discovered within the past few months by gynacologists.

The debate is was she 12, 14, 15, 16, 18? I haven't seen proof that is convincing as to Mary's age.

Remember this, Mary was a chosen vessel, not picked at random. She was asked her opinion and her question was proof of the fact that she was a virgin. She was told how it was to come about and she WILLINGLY surrendered to God's Spirit and conceived without ever being physically touched by any male figure. When given the opportunity to tell her kinsman Elizabeth the news of her pregnancy, John, called the Baptist, lept with joy within Elizabeth's womb.

Joseph, whom she was to marry was also visited by the angel in a dream and willingly took her to wife, but knew her not until the child (Jesus) was born. The couple had other children besides Jesus so Mary did not remain a virgin. She fulfilled her love for her husband in the normal manner and bore him several children.

rcn

Anonymous said...

I doubt it!

God does not do things without true science backing it. (Makes for a good story tho)

Like pregnancy happens to girls just from swimming in a swimming pool...maybe she was just swimming

Anonymous said...

For argument's sake. If God IS God, creator of all things he understands science that is yet hidden from the minds of mortal man. He knows things that are so simple to him but so complex to mankind that when a discovery is made the world gasps in wonder.

Think about the length of time it took to discover electricity, to develop the light bulb, the telephone, A.C. & D.C. electrical current, how to build an electric motor, how to design the working of gears, shafte, pullys, chains, belts. Consider the development of hydrocarbon fuel, to replace whale oil in lighting rural America, and the world. Think about Aeronautics, radio, television, microwave, microchip, digital operated euipment. Think about the discovery of antiseptic surgury, the microscope, the discovery of penicillin and modern antibotics. Think about the advances in medicine related to the discovery of DNA. I could go on and on. IF God IS God, and I have no doubt that HE IS, I believe the conception of a Holy child by God in the body of a young woman is a pretty simple act to believe.

rcn

ATAR_i said...

I learned about a womans cervix not being mature in the late 80's. I don't think it was new information back then either.

Anonymous said...

Well atar_i,

I'm rather backward and I only learned about it as a result of your revelation, but the premise sounds very reasonable. I don't think that God would do anything to harm his chosen vessel to carry the fetus and Holy Child, Jesus. I think I'll stick with older than 12. Another reason, maturity. Girls 12 years old are beginning to develop physically, but are still a long way from being emotionally mature.

I could have fathered a child at 12, but I didn't until I was 25 and then I still wondered if I had the maturity to meet the needs of the child and it's mother.

Physiological ability doesn't determine mental, moral, judgemental or the maturity of an individual.

rcn

Anonymous said...

To the original thread....

Seems like MIB has not lied, McCain has moved to the hot seat. Rumor has it a Demorcratic U.S. Senator is next!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00396.htm

Senator John Mccain Passes The Buck On Polygamy

Friday, 26 May 2006, 3:22 pm
Opinion: Suzan Mazur


http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3840415

Leahy singles out Hatch on plural marriage

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00364.htm
Reports Reconfirm Hatch Said He Condones Polygamy
Wednesday, 24 May 2006, 1:38 pm
Article: Suzan Mazur

When Orrin Hatch said, "thats not what I said", it seems that several news agencies differed with that, catching him in a current lie. A tangled web they weave and a paper trail rarely lies.

A mini raid on Colorado City, a temporary mayor arrested, a lawsuit against the former trustee's, Warrenite business connections and contracts exposed, WHAT WILL COME NEXT?

Just pick up the paper tomorrow and there will be more!

ATAR_i said...

Perhaps I'll see you one day on the Dateline NBC 'To Catch a Preditor' segments.

I'll know it's you when you start spouting how you weren't really there to have sex with the 12 year old, you just wanted to immaculately conceive with her, and perhaps bring her little brother with her when she comes to be your bride...and then of course something about 'Mary', and some other demented ramblings.

Apparently there is no shortage of men who believe JUST LIKE YOU - so I imagine those Dateling NBC stings will keep airing - see you soon.

ATAR_i said...

Smashing double entendre!

ATAR_i said...

You can google it - but do you understand it?

ATAR_i said...

Mugs authored it, I commended him - you didn't appear to understand his words nor my response.

ATAR_i said...

I didn't think you could GET a chicken hunting license.

Weird allegory.

furnace said...

You're the one that will somehow convert a conversation about man going to the moon into an act of sodomy; you highjack every thread and suddenly talk about the immoral implications of things that were never immoral. So, whose state of mind is wretched?

furnace said...

Street, I would suggest you not prove our points for us.

Anonymous said...

Furnace, you won that match. Checkmate!