Thursday, February 09, 2006

Birth Defects

Does anyone have any information on this birth defect phenomenon happening in Hilsdale and Colorado City? I just read an article published in the Salt Lake City Deseret News about Fumarase Defficiency, which is seen in about 20 people within that group. It was so rare that worldwide there were only 13 cases. This is interesting. Does anyone know anything about this??

114 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yes I can tell you all about it. Isac Wyler and Ross aswell are both walking Birth Defects.

Anonymous said...

Please, no names this time. The archives already has discussion about Dougherty's article on fumarase.

Anonymous said...

that is right isac wyler shore know all about ever thing. i would not belive any thing he says.

Anonymous said...

Please, no names this time. The archives already has discussion about Dougherty's article on fumarase.

http://texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_texaspolygamy_archive.html

See December posts this blog, old news.

Anonymous said...

After reading a little about fumarase, it would be really easy for King Warren to make sure that there were not any more couples that had any chance of producing this. Warren would just have to listen to God for about 1/2 second to know this is the thing to do. Come on Warren, see if you can hear God long enough to stop marrying girls so young and to their relatives.

Anonymous said...

Issac&Ross Lets not talk about your horses please. The health department would be shocked, 25 horses in one tiny corral what is all of this about children. Lets not get the fiqures on other handicappp children. Shame on both you. Lets take care of the horses in your own back yard. Lets not talk about abborted fetis's and unwed mothers in the States of Utah and Arizona and underage pregnacys. Stop airing your dirty laundry.You both make me sick. NYC

Anonymous said...

Whats this dont mention names thing. Dont ever mention Warren Jeffs name ever again. You guys are funny.NYC

Anonymous said...

The last time this came up, someone posted a list of all people with birth defects and who their parents were. The webmaster deleted this post.

Anonymous said...

thank you NYC you could not have said it better

Anonymous said...

Can anyone shed some intelligent light on the topic of 'Fumarase Deficiency'? This post asks a serious question. Without naming people by name can someone tell the rest of us how this phenomina is known to exist? What are the symptoms? If it comes about as the result of continuous inbreeding within a family, do you not think that some thought should be given to the possibility that incest is at the root of the problem? Is anyone among the victim families brave enough to stop the practice? No names please. Just provide insight. We are interested in the challenge.

SOMEONE WHO CARES said...

Is this really sich a huge surprise to short creek residents? I mean , really? Just in case it is , YOU CAN'T HAVE A CHILD WITH A CLOSE BLOOD RELATIVE. PERIOD. Do us all a favor and realize for yourselves whether or not you should be doing this. Think of these children. They didn't ask to be brought into the world deformed and they didn't ask to be locked into this crazy power struggle that you call a religion.

To Anon of 9:04 am

Have you noticed if there are any animals left at the city zoo? It has been a long time since I was able to check in on them. Just thought I would ask.

Just want to make it very clear that I agree with the admin. on the whole list of names thing. It is extremely insensitive to put names of people on a list, when they did nothing wrong.

IT IS ALL ALL ALL WARREN,S FAULT!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Has W. Jeffs been the prophet in control for several generations? These birth defect problems have taken a long time to develop. As inbreeding continues generation after generation the genetic pool becomes smaller and smaller. This means that you may father or give birth to an infant who is as close to being 'you' as would an identical twin. In effect the child has become your clone. Therefore both weaknesses and strengths multiply in each suceeding generation. You may have children with terrible physical deformaties, but who are able to solve extremely difficult mental challenges. The reverse of this may just as well occur. The child could be as healthy physically as a hybrid mule and as mentally defficient as a stone. I do not know the answer nor would I presume to. Tell us of your observations, related to the topic raised by this thread. We can all lay blame at someone else's feet.

Anonymous said...

Can everyone give us a break. I cant fiqure out what this imbreeding is all about. When Noah came over on the ark all he had was 8 of his children. Where do people come up with all of this. I quess we better start a blog about Noah,or a Blog about Lehi and His Posterity and their imbreeding with one another or should we talk about ADAM and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Who did Cain marry? who did Abel Marry? The People in those Towns of Colorado City and Hildale are no Different than any other Town. Issac and Ross you Boys are the Scum of the Earth. Who are you to judge or ridicule these parents that are taking care of Handicap Children that they surely Love. Let God be the Judge for with what Judgement ye Judge you shall be judged. Just be Quiet and hope you dont have any handicap children and then blame it on Monogamy breeding. NYC

someone who cares said...

T o Anon of 6:54 pm

You want to know what all of this is about? Do you know what the word means, at least? I feel as if the people on this blog are just not getting it. Do you realize, NYC, that we are talking about a community that basically is used for breeding children so that those children (and I do mean children age 11 at last word) can have more children as soon as their bodies are able. This is the problem! If it weren't for the constant "rabbit-like" behavior, and ALL of the denial that envelopes the towns, this WOULD NOT BE HAPPENING ! YES , I absolutely and wholeheartedly say that we can lay the blame at one man's feet!!!!!

someone who cares said...

also to anon of 5:25

There is a reason why cloning is ILLEGAL!!!!

Anonymous said...

Didn't you know that the story of Adam and Eve is just a fairy-tale? So is the story of Noah and Lehi. Science has proven them all wrong. You need to go to school where you can read the true history of the earth from the time of the big bang to the amoebas to the dinosaurs. Don't think too long on this though or you may raise more questions like 'where did the gene pool for that amoeba come from?' or "just how large was the gene pool of its progenitors?'.

someone who cares said...

anon 7:43

Coming from someone who actually graduated high school, I would like to say " Right on" to you because I feel as if I am the only one that is trying to drop knowledge into the black hole that are the minds of those who will not leave the hell that they reside in. Thank you for making it very clear, to me at least, that "smart" people do come in here to talk.

fttc said...

Someone who cares.

Warren did not rise to his postion alone. There were numbers before him that paved the way. Corrupt men that would not listen to leaders wiser than they. Many of them have been victims of warren. Once they had fulfilled their part he had no use for them. Most contributed unwittingly and before warren had aspirations for his present position. I am sure warren will hold his share, but as you hinted, all the people who let him perpetrate his perfidy will hold their share also.

someone who cares said...

to fttc

I realize that he didn't start this insane practice, but could he not stop it? Why would anyone who claims to be "sent by God" keep this going? It is mortifying to think of the women and children that MUST suffer at the hands of a monster and not just any monster either. One who hides behind his wives dresses like a child or a monster who runs from justice and goes to his other nest of wives and hides there too.

Anonymous said...

To 7:47

Warren teaches that someday, the only history that will be taught is priesthood history, not the lies of the Gentiles. Scary that a man that can't tell the truth wants to rewrite history and make it the only history known, but hey, didn't the early Christians nearly succeed in doing this?

Anonymous said...

The people I have known with the fumerase problem children were not close relatives, they are 4 generations apart. They had no idea there could be a problem, long enough for the original carriers to be long gone. They're not talking about cousins, 1st cousins nor even 2nd cousins. 25 years ago a blood test was required by law before getting married. This was to reduce the chance of rh factor. With modern science, and drugs we no longer have the same threat. There is a problem, and genetic problems are not only among these people. we all look forward for a time when these type problems can be remedied. It's not right to slander these people. it's not from drugs, alcohol, incest, smoking, nor physical abuse. these people are top-notch parents and deserve all the help and support they can get, that means from me, and you. Warren is whatever he is, but he is in a prison of his own making, and life goes on for the rest of the people. everyone in shortcreek are not related. Some are, and some perhaps closer than they should be, but not what is being portrayed.

Anonymous said...

I am the 7:43 poster. I posted that in complete sarcasm. I think it is ridiculous that science chooses to beleive theories assuming they know what what happened many millions of years before any record was kept. At the same time rejecting in toto the written record of man. Such is the presumptiousness of man.

The 10:30 post is correct at least to some degree. This fumarase thing is being blown out of proportion.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for at least addressing the issue at hand. I may or may not agree with your conclusions but at least you are willing to address the problem.

I have a bit of problem understanding Native Texan's post. Are the supposed 20 cases in the Crik area new? When you compare that number to the thirteen cases reported worldwide, does that mean that now there are thirty-three cases world wide with 20 of those cases confined to the Crik area?

If the preceeding is indeed correct, then there are six more cases in the area occupied by FLDS practicing polygamy than in the entire rest of the world. If indeed this is the case, then common sense would tell you that indeed Fermuse has reached epidemic porportions in the Crik area in comparison to the world at large. If one case has apeared within a particular family the odds of a repeat in that particular family are astronomical.

Is not man's attempt to reproduce himself the equivilent of cloning?

As far as I am aware, all animals that have been produced as the result of cloning have had severe genetic problems and have low tolerance for diseases and a greatly reduced lifespan. Cloning is simply another imperfect attempt of man to duplicate God's business.

Anonymous said...

Is not man's attempt to reproduce himself the equivilent of cloning?

Was this in reference to reproduction in general or the program of warren to produce a 'perfect' race?

Anonymous said...

Funny thing is, the very gene pool that could solve a lot of this, was what Uncle Roy gathered in through his administration. Wouldn't you know it, the Jeffs clan unwittingly has ran them all off. Doh, way to go Warren.

Anonymous said...

Unwittingly? I don't think so. His efforts to create the perfect race are intentional. Those you refer to still had the principle of freedom in their hearts. Warren is coming from the angle that Hitler had some correct ideas, they were just misapplied. In the end his followers will find those ideas lead to where Hitler went. A society that takes away the liberty of the people can never go in the direction of approaching God.

ATAR_i said...

7:43 poster who states that Adam and Eve nor Noah ever existed.

Are you certain? Are you sure? Can you say with absolute certainty that they never existed and the story of their lives is complete falsehood?

Is it easier to swallow that this complex world with humans, animals, microwaves, nucelear weapons, was created by accident?

Is that an easier premise to swallow than a higher power who created it?

I remember hearing about the first man on the moon. The scientists had done all sorts of test to discover how much dust would be on a moon whichis 4.5 billion years old.

They made their projections, and knew that astronauts would be greeted by 3 feet of cosmic dist.

Of course, there was not. So is the earth younger, or were the scientific calculations wrong?

Many scientists are in agreement that there was no divine intervention to begin this earth - it happened accidently with a bang. But, since no one was there, and no evidence exists to refute that premise - it is accepted - but is it truth?

3 feet of cosmic dust was truth until they learned more, and came up with a different theory (remember these are world class scientists). They got more data, and made a completely different - new theory based on the data.

So science changes with data - they propose a theory based on objective data. Remember - it's a theory - it's not a fact, and not purported to be so by the scientific community. They are well aware of what they can know with certainty, and what they cannot - are you?

Anonymous said...

Atar_i

I am the poster of 7:43. My post was supposed to be in sarcasm. Apparently I was not successful in expressing it. Your defense against it is what I was trying to draw out of someone. Thank you for your input. It thrills me when someone will state the fact that these are scientfic THEORIES. They are so often accepted as fact by those who have not cared enough to give it a second thought.

Truth does not change. You said it was the truth that the moon had three feet of dust until observation proved otherwise. It was accepted as truth until then but it wasn't the truth. I am parsing words I know, but shouldn't we be more honest than that? If facts contradict what we perceive as truth, then it wasn't the truth. How many other theories that are being accepted as true will turn out not to be? No one can know.

Anonymous said...

2:09

What's the difference? Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Anonymous said...

The difference to me is that God commanded us to reproduce and provided us the means to do so. Man's attempts at cloning are a perversion of His methods.

Anonymous said...

To anonymous 7:43 (cc: atar-i), if you really were trying to be sarcastic it seems to me that you are attacking science as if it has no basis but your beliefs do.

In science, paradigms are constantly changing. Science is based primarily on theories. There is the Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution and so forth. Theories are based upon the scientific evidence produced up to a certain time but there are theories that sometimes change and sometimes hold true but they are based on available evidence.

If there is any chance that a scientific theory has even a chance of being wrong then no reputable scientist is going to refute that it is anything more than a theory.

That is the beauty of science. Science allows the possibility of being wrong. Much of religion however, does not.

Have you ever heard anyone get up in church and discussing the theory of The Garden of Eden, the theory of The Great Flood or the theory of God?

Scientists refer to things such as the "Big Bang" and "Evolution" as Theories. They are based upon the scientific evidence that is available to us at the time.

If we are to be honest and fair then anything that doesn't have irrefutable evidence to support it is just a theory and that would include what is taught in the Bible, Book of Mormon or any other religious publications.
However, I think that any genuinely religious person would have a hard time stating his or her beliefs as theories even though much of what they believe has little or no evidence to back it up.

If there is not sufficient evidence to back up the story of Adam and Eve or Noah or Lehi, then isn't it just a theory? It doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't happen but without evidence it is just a theory and should be recognized as such by any free-thinking individual.

Anonymous said...

In reviewing the sequence of the posts before the 7:43 I can see that it seems I just spoke out of the blue. I was responding to several posts before mine. Maybe you see no sense in that either. Be it as it may, I was not dissing science. Science means knowledge. I know what you say about theories is true. A real scientist will not claim to know anything that is not proven.

My remarks were intended for those who have put as much or more faith in the theories of men than I have put in the scriptures. Of late there are scientists that are coming to terms with the fact that there had to be an intelligence behind creation. The probabilities are too high for life to be a game of chance. Nationally the theory of creationism is getting a lot of attention.

My intended sarcasm was directed at those who have swallowed the version of life's beginning that has been taught in our public education institutions. The 'big bang' theory was taught to me as being fact. Yes, the books mentioned it was a theory, the teachers however passed over that little fact and taught it as though it was the only theory available and so it must be true. This has gone on until it has become understood, until just recently, that it was fact. Go to a public school and ask the students who haven't been taught otherwise at home where we came from. Big-bang/evolution will come out in nearly every case.

someone who cares said...

O.k. ... What is going on here? Why all this about theories and evolution? Yeah, so everyone has their own opinion. So what? Can we please get back to the thread topic?

Thanks

Anonymous said...

Isn't Fumarase deficiency evolution in progress?

Anonymous said...

Why don't everyone just go turn on your HD Televisions and plug in the movie Batman and shutup. I'm sick of quack Doctors and Quack Journalist thinking they are the answer. Why don't you people leave these people alone and mind your own business. please everyone mind your business. You can say the same thing about monogamy, they are imbreeding and they are producing all kinds of problems. Lets all of us get off their case.Please Please Please Let's say something Good About the Flds lets just say ,for 1 day would'nt that be fun. I'll Start it. These people are very nice people and they have very beautiful Children. NYC

Anonymous said...

NYC

Are you clueless or what!

Of course these people have a great many positive things about them. By far more than the negative things.

However the facts speek for them selfes.

Anyone doing these things FLDS or not will suffer similer
concequences.

What you call RELIGOUS PERSECUTION in reality is CRIMINAL PROSICUTION AT THIS POINT OR VERY SOON TO BE (its obvious you are flds and doing damage control for any one on the blog who is also flds).

If you have facts to refute the evidence at hand bring it forward,but you can not so your posts attack the messenger because you can't attack the message with any truth!!!

Once again, I know many flds and know them well and they are GREAT PEOPLE, who would never steal (embezel) for self enrichment,but for their church they will comit many crimes.

REALITY CHECK!!!! WAKE UP PLEASE!!!!!

Anonymous said...

NYC,

these children ARE our business.

the health and welfare of ALL children in America is our business

... and we WILL mind to it, thank you


keep sweet eldorado
stg

Native Texan said...

To answer an earlier question, the article I read stated that a few years ealier, the known worldwide total for Fumarase Deficiency was 13. Today within the FLDS community alone there are 20 known cases. I think the point being made was that this is a serious problem on the rise within this particular group. Today I read an article in the Salt Lake City Tribune which gave the current worldwide total of known cases to be 50. This includes the 20 I mentioned earlier.

Incidentally I agree that printing the names of people with this problem is reprehensible. What a heartache for these folks and their family members, no matter how it came about!

Anonymous said...

To the anonymous people on 2/9/06 at 4.35 pm and 5.35 pm. Also to NYC on 2/10/06 at 9:04 am and 12:06 pm:

Someone told me that there were a couple of people on this blog that were very angry with me for talking about Fumerase Deficiency. I feel like I should answer you.

You said that Ross and I were “both walking birth defects”. You’re entitled to your own opinion and I would fight for your right to express yourself. On the “outside” they refer to this as “freedom of speech” and it’s a sacred right protected under our United States Constitution.

I choose to not believe you, as is also my right under the same constitution. I can understand your anger at me for talking to “outsiders” about Fumerase Deficiency because it probably hit close to your home. I can’t understand why you are so angry at Ross. I’ve never heard of him talking about Fumerase to anyone and he’s never owned a horse. If you have issues with me and my horses, you might try communicating with me about them without dragging Ross into something he is not involved in.

I currently have five horses in training at my home in 10ftX 20ft. individual pens. Across the highway, I had 18 horses in a pen that is just under 6 acres in size. You must have been referring to the spring and summer breeding season when I rotate 8 to 10 mares and their new foals on and off my place to get the mares rebred. I put them all in one pretty good sized pen because the foals like to play with each other. When the mares are rebred they get turned out to the pasture again for the year and the mares that just foaled are brought in and put in the mare/foal pen to be rebred. In many cases, the 25 horses you claim that you saw “in one small pen” weren’t even the same horses 60 days later. You would have known that if you had just asked.

When you send the health department over to my place to “be shocked” you had better hope they don’t stop by and check out the close confinement conditions of “your” local dairy, feed lot, and hennery (chicken coops for several thousand chickens). Now that is close quarters, though I’m not saying anything about it because I consume meat, eggs and milk and I know how it is raised.

Also, NYC, we talked about Fumerase Deficiency in those interviews. I said nothing about aborted fetuses, unwed mothers in Utah and Arizona, and under aged pregnancies. If you know of such things going on, that’s your dirty laundry, not mine.

As to someone insensitively listing the names of parents with children carrying Fumerase Deficiency; I had nothing to do with that nor would I have condoned it and if it was posted, I’m glad the webmaster deleted it. I was married into a family with a lot of Fumerase Deficiency problems, and I’m well aware of how sensitive an issue this is with the mothers, fathers, and siblings.

I also understand a little about genetics and I know that you don’t solve the problem by pretending it doesn’t exist and by not talking about how it got stated in the first place. This genetic problem would be simple to solve if the one in charge would use a little God given science and technology in out crossing the Fumerase Deficiency gene before there are more cases of this disease. This would save a lot of heart ache and work for future parents, though admittedly, it can do nothing for what were earlier, improper choices.

For those reading this blog, I would like to tell them that I know from first hand experience that the fathers and mothers in this community that are caught up in the wake of this disease are the most loving dedicated and hard working parents a child could ever hope to have. I haven’t seen the program yet, so whether it was shown or not, I don’t know, but I said this in the interviews and I meant it.

Isaac Wyler

Anonymous said...

I totally agree with your assessment Native Texan. Names of those victimized by this terrible tragedy is of no concern to those who look at the problem and not the people.

Anonymous said...

Please Please Please Let's say something Good About the Flds lets just say ,for 1 day would'nt that be fun. I'll Start it. These people are very nice people and they have very beautiful Children. NYC


To NYC
There are some FLDS who are good and decent. They have been the excommunicated and those who chose to walk away for one reason or another, but not under the influance of Warren.

As for those still following Warren the verdict is still out.

But, as time goes by the real truth of Warren Jeffs Legacy will bare out the awful facts. Liars steal, thiefs lie.

Anonymous said...

I thought we were going to say something nice from now on.. These people are very industrious and seem to mind their business, wish we would do the same. The real truth is we need to clean up our own back yards.

Anonymous said...

but as time goes by the real truth of Warren Jeffs Legacy well bare out the honest truths. Inocence requires no defence ,it will bare its self out.

fttc said...

It is not always healthy to look at life through rose colored glasses. The cold, hard truth often does a fellow good. Sorry you are so uncomfortable with it.

Anonymous said...

The FLDS is a group of religious people. Why are they always describing themselves as decent, hard-working, good parents, etc.? I've never heard them describe themselves as people who love the Lord. Isn't that supposed to be the reason they set themselves apart...or is Warren Jeffs all they really have in common? Does he rule this group or does God rule this group? It seems to me that Warren Jeffs has taken the place of God and he likes the attention (not to mention power trip) that brings him.

There seems to be two types of FLDS: those who support WJ's leadership and those who don't. Where does God fit into this group?? WJ will have a lot to answer for one of these days....maybe the FBI won't catch up to him, but he cannot run from the ultimate authority.

fttc said...

You make a very, very good point. I may have an explanation.

As fundamentalist mormons we believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith and his contemporaries. During the end of the 19th century the government demanded that the LDS church give up some of those principles. The Mormons (LDS) at the time were persecuted for continuing to adhere to them. Property was confiscated, members rights to privacy and fair trial were abrogated by a self-acknowledged prejudice court. The result was that the church as a legal entity gave in to the pressure and declared the end of plural marriage in an attempt to get some peace.

Plural marriage IS a tenet of fundamental Mormonism. After the church gave this up those who stuck to their beliefs were persecuted by the church leadership. The LDS church presidency became a worse persecuter against them than the government had been before, adding a lot more principles to those which the government had forbidden in a further attempt to become friends with other religions. If a person lived in a Mormon community and acknowledged his belief in the fundamentals they would be ostracized and become the scum of the earth by fellow LDS, regardless of their impeccable standing in the community before such acknowledgement.

The result of this was that many began to live these principles in secret. This has become part of the culture of fundamentalism. The fact that you do not hear FLDS mention God or their religion is not because they have no faith in it, or no trust in God. It is more because they have been raised to keep such things private.

I am speaking relative to the pre-warren Fundamentalists. warren has taught the people that the 'prophet' IS God. There are those that, as you say, worship him as such. In general Fundamentalist LDS have learned to seperate religion from all other topics in discussion with 'outsiders'.

Anonymous said...

There is another factor at work here that non-FLDS need to understand.

There were two types of FLDS mentioned. Pro-WJ and anti-WJ. There has been an attempt to make this look like the LE and other outside entities have suddenly awakened to what is going on in CC/Hlidale. Truth of the matter is that a number of factions within the FLDS are vying for control and using outsiders for leverage against each other. This has caused repercussions in the communities around FLDS held areas, viz. So. Utah, N. Ariz., Mancos, Eldorado, N. Id., and Bountiful CAN. LE has become involved. Individual organizations have become involved. All has been fostered by these factions trying to eliminate each other. It appears that they will all fall into the pit together in the end.

Who will be left to pick up the pieces?

Anonymous said...

LE??? What's that?

Anonymous said...

LE-law enforcement

Welcome to blogging!

Anonymous said...

Why don't we don't just call them "po pos"??? thanks for the warm welcome to blogging.

onthestreet said...

There seems to be two types of FLDS: those who support WJ's leadership and those who don't. Where does God fit into this group?? WJ will have a lot to answer for one of these days....maybe the FBI won't catch up to him, but he cannot run from the ultimate authority.
2/15/2006 11:31 AM

STREET'S Reply: God doesn't fit into your little groups. People must fit with God, or else there is not fitting or sitting with Him. The problem with the people and the churches of the world is that they try to fit God to their false notions and evil ways. A church that keeps to itself and its knitting in the Lord, not just in word, but in works and according to His Word, become fit for the Kingdom of Go. His Word includes United Order and the Plurality of Wives, and only for those who are pure, sexually.

Now people can talk about that until their blue in the face and in other places, but their insinuations against a religious society doesn't change their true character. No people that are so sexually involved could build such a city so rapidly and with such clarity and beauty. Their marriages and procreations must be more immaculate and more spiritual for such order to accrue.

onthestreet said...

As for "running from the ultimate authority", the way terror grips the world today, it is the world seeking to run FROM God's ultimate authority, while His saints run TO that authority continually. There's the difference. One runs from, and the other to.

Anonymous said...

AHHH Street thanks for the breath of fresh air.

Please dont leave us hangin here without reason for to long.

ATAR_i said...

quick note to 7:43 - I should have put "truth' in quotes", as yes, theories are often presented as truth.

I agree - this is no place to "out" affected children and families, it's insensitive and salacious.

There is NO evidence that these children are at want for love and care - from what I hear - quite the opposite.

Given that, is it optimal for the child? NO. Does that mean we destroy the child? NO. Does that mean we flail the affected families with criticism? NO.

Then what does it mean? It means we educate, and continue to educate without judgement and criticism.

At some point, the light will turn on, and the one person who can stop this, will realize that this deficiency is not benefiting his followers, but perhaps bleeding their resources. And while I would not expect him to stop for anything as humane as their own personal suffering. I do believe financial motive would be enough. I anticipate that it would have to get a lot worse before it gets better though.

And, human life, no matter how little merit some can see in its existence is always precious. Most of us believe that the life of a special needs child is just as precious as that of any child.

Even given that statement, I believe that it is incumbent upon those who create life, to do so with the best interest of their child.

So, if you are well aware that in marrying a certain man you might create a life of pain, without many of the joys that bring you happiness, even if you are willing to bear the burden - are you really thinking about what is best for that child?

If marrying a different man, creates a life full of possibilities - and has the best interest of the child at heart - why would you choose the former (silly question - you don't actually get to choose).

Anyhow, good discussion.

Anonymous said...

its just the price that is paid to follow warren. they are not thinking of the children when "god" tells you to marry or swap

ATAR_i said...

I realize the schoolteacher is making the decisions andI don't think he'll change unless there is a financial incentive.

Every sick child brings the affected family in the FLDS community into more contact with the outside world out of necessity.

I know he's not super duper excited about that.

Just a thought. It's pretty clear Jeffs himself doesn't carry the gene (no remarks about his face...he can't help it). So what if he is intentionally breeding this gene into a population, to genetically wipe out everyone except his direct decendents, while taking the monies of those that didn't survive. Wouldn't he be hideously diabolical.

Anonymous said...

Boy, that's a scary thought! Could Warren be that cruel and egotistical?

Anonymous said...

STREET SAID...."A church that keeps to itself and its knitting in the Lord, not just in word, but in works and according to His Word, become fit for the Kingdom of God. His Word includes United Order and the Plurality of Wives, and only for those who are pure, sexually."

FROM ANONYMOUSE

Street you have just MADE MY DAY... everything in a sweet nutshell.

KEEP SWEET

Anonymous said...

Anon. 10:54

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matt. 7:20


What you are observing regarding his behavior now can be expected in the future. Leopards do not change their spots. Dogs return to their vomit.

ATAR_i said...

So, just one observation here. Seth was caught with 'Pennies for the profit', prepaid credit cards, and other items labeled for 'the prophet'(clearly he is part of the CLOSE FLDS crowd) and in the same car with all of these offerings he's bringing to his brother, the prophet, he's just paid his male cousin to orally gratify him.

I've heard for ages on this board that Seth was homosexual tendencies (heard it about Warren too), and lo and behold he's caught by unsuspecting police officers because they initially thought he was drunk (they didn't realize he was just in the middle of 'the big O' brought on by his male cousin).

So....again, how is this only for the sexually pure?

Anonymous said...

To err is human; to really stretch the truth takes a woman.

Anonymous said...

A perversion that has been allowed to raise it's ugly head under the title 'alternate sexual pursuasion.' I guess if one is acting in the place of God, as God you can expect vileness, lying, theft, murder, adultry, and distortion of the person of God to become a regular contribution to a misled society. So was it at Sodom.

ATAR_i said...

So yeah - I guess I'm glad I'm a woman - because I'd rather not be a man (like Seth) "erring" here and there with males he pays for sex.

Do I stretch the truth - unless your in the car with Seth and his cousin - you wouldn't know would you?

I only know the information released. But of course the police are all 'bad' and 'out to get you', and of course the courts are 'bad' and 'out to get you', and the press are 'bad' and 'out to get you' and of course Seths cousin is 'lying', he's 'bad' and 'out to get you' - but you're not paranoid or anything (yeah right).

So nice try - no cigar.

Anonymous said...

I am 10:08. I am not in favor of Warren, but I saw nothing in the report that specified it was oral sex. Keep in mind the two boys were separated and never did come up with a consistent story; not even the prostitution charges. I think the "relief" Nathan felt was not an unloading of his conscience to tell the truth, but rather a finding of an excuse the police would believe because he didn't want to betray Warren.

Anonymous said...

Better to be labeled a fag than to reveal the whereabouts of King Fag, rapist of little boys and girls, spoiler of families, thief, racist, liar and adulterer. And these are just a few of his merits!

ATAR_i said...

9:37 - you're right - it could have been with the hand (is that better?).

Can you explain to me what you mean about Nathan - I don't understand how the confession of prostitution covers for Warren.

It doesn't make sense to me. It does explain swervy driving, but wouldn't it be better just to say you were a homosexual getting your jollies, why add the prostitution?

Why not just say you were changing the radio station for that matter, or you had an itch, or a bug was crawling up your leg.

Seems rather convenient that a suspected homosexual paying for sex is a cover for the real story - That he's a persecuted religious missionary doing Gods work.

By the way, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Anonymous said...

If they buy that bridge let me know. I know a fellow that owns a black hole out in space that he might let go at a bargin price.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I don't understand that cliche at the end of your post.

ATAR_i said...

It goes something like "and if you believe that.....I have a bridge I'd like to sell you".

It's basically about being really naive, simple, inexperienced, ignorant, primitive or just downright stupid.

I do not know the provenance of that saying, but it's widely used and understood.

Anonymous said...

atari

Fact 1


when they were pulled over seth was in the back lying down.


Fact 2

the passenger side was full of trash,obviously they had been driving for some time and had not been using the passengers seat for anything other than a trash can.


if they were having sex it was not at the time they were stoped by the deputy.

i believe he was desperatly looking for a way out that would not comprise there mission.

but that was not the right way out.

ATAR_i said...

2:55 Where did you come by the information about the backseat, and the trash in the passengers side - was that in some sort of printed material - or did you hear this verbally?

Everything I have read does not agree with the version you stated above, so my curiousity is piqued.

Who was looking for the way out? Seth or his cousin? Both? I wouldn't doubt they were looking for a way out, that doesn't necessarily mean they were lying in their initial statements. The second version just might be embarrassment over the truth.

You can't have rose colored glasses on all the time - and believe everything is rosy just because you want it to be - sometimes it is, what it is.

I'll restate a coment I made earlier that I feel is poignant.

Seems rather convenient that a suspected homosexual paying for sex is a cover for the real story - That he's a persecuted religious missionary doing Gods work.

Anonymous said...

From statement of Officer
"I observed the vehicle to have a large amount of empty food wrappers and drinks on the passenger side of the vehicle. There where also an unordinary amount of cell phones (5) in plain view inside the vehicle. They also had a mattress inside the vehicle, which Seth was lying on inside the back of the vehicle."


Office said he contact Nathanael and asked him if he worked for Seth and he stated, "No, not really". I advised him that Seth said he had paid him $5 thousand for some work and he put his head down.

Officer asked Nathanael what kind of relationship he had with Seth and he put his head down again.
Officer asked him if he had a sexual relationship with Seth and he said "Yes". I asked him if that
is what Seth had paid him for and he advised me that Seth had paid him that money for a sexual relationship, but he really doesn't know how much money. He
advised me Seth wanted him to travel with him on this business trip to be his companion. I asked him where he met Seth today and he stated, "Denver"

Now it said passenger side of vehicle not seat.

If you are a deviant(s) food and drink wrappers don't matter.

fttc said...

Anon 11:47

Could you clarify what your point was? What do the wrappers have to do with anyone being a deviant? Are you inferring there was not a passenger seat in the vehicle and this has some meaning? I don't get it.

Anonymous said...

deviant

adj : markedly different from an accepted norm; "aberrent behavior"; "deviant ideas" [syn: aberrant] n : a person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior

Sitting among trash would not stop the act, what ever it was when a person sinks that low. No joke intended.

onthestreet said...

So much wild speculation and so little truth, when it comes to associating the mistakes or perceived mistakes of others, inside and out, Jew and Gentile, to the Prophet. It is a sifting process, which is an eternal process, to sift out all that offend God and His Anointed in every generation.

ATAR_i said...

fttc - a poster was alleging that since there were wrappers and etc on the passengers side - there was no oral sex taking place.

Wrappers + car = no oral sex

That was the theory put out by an earlier poster. Unfortunately - we all know that just because the passnegers side contained wrappers - it doesn't mean no one was sitting in the seat.

My theory:

confession + evidence = oral sex (or a hand job - whatever)

Forgive me for being so blunt - but I just I need to speak plainly for all those who want to twist things about.

ATAR_i said...

OTS - how does it feel to be trapped in the top of the sifter?

Anonymous said...

Atari you are out of line here.

There is plenty of facts to show the blatent illegal activities of the FLDS.

You are standing on a lot of assumptions and trying to paint this issue black and white.

Please wait for the facts to be brought out in court,if your right it will show, but if your wrong YOUR words will be used as further proof that we are all judging unfairly.

If your right you'll have your day.If not will you eat your words and publicly apoligize for being unfairly judgemental?

ATAR_i said...

OK - to be fair to myself - the guy confessed.

He confessed.

He confessed

ATAR_i said...

If the guy lied during his confession (which is entirely possible) - how is it that judgement would fall on me - because I believed him. Why would I be judged harshly because I believed the story HE told

Suppose for a moment that they had been pulled over for swerving and Nathan stated that he was drunk, and the newspaper printed that he was drunk. Would you be upset at me for believing he was drunk?

Because you don't like what he said, or perhaps you know more than me, and know he had an ulterior motive for lying to the police DOESN'T MAKE ME THE BAD GUY.

No matter how much you don't like the story - it's the STORY HE TOLD.

fttc said...

Atar

Thanks for the heads-up. I wondered if that was what they were getting at. It is so illogical of an explanation it didn't seem likely. You are getting a dose of the scope to which these people are willing to bend the facts presented before them in order to justify their faith in a man. Astonishing isn't it?

ATAR_i said...

I was suprised by the 'out of nowhere questions', and the 'you false accuser' stuff.

"why do they keep a pile of dung at a mennonite wedding?"

"to keep the flies off the bride"


I think they are throwing 'dung' everywhere and hoping it sticks - perhaps it will keep the 'flies off of them' that way.

BTW - it won't work

mugwump said...

The Mennonites I have been acquainted with over the years may work farms, deal with mucking out stalls, milking cows, making apple butter and strudle, but for the most part I think their personal hygiene is such that it would be unnecessary to have dung present at a weding for the expressed purpose of keeping flies off the bride. They are a somewhat strict society, but for the most part are a Godly people. Of course there are exceptions in every case.

ATAR_i said...

This joke was told by a group of Canadians, who didn't have the highest esteem for mennonites (this was quite awhile ago so the context is quite vague).

It's really a (fill in the blank). The point was *not* the mennonites - the point was diversion. And, I fear I will lose my own point for someone taking offense at the illustration I used to make my point (isn't that interesting).

mugwump said...

It makes perfect sense to me.

The FLDS has become the local society of ridicule, primarily because of their secretive activities and totally controlled lifestyle, in Schleicher County, TX. Were they open to observation I am sure that much of the local lack of trust would disappear. Their motivation seems to be driven by fear. Fear is contageous. Since they live in a constant state of fear, for the fate of their immortal souls and blessings of their prophet, that fear is telegraphed to those on the outside. We observe their watchtowers, their locked gate, their roving patrols etc. and not understanding the 'why' causes an uncertainty that is easily reduced to fear. We see the women and children scatter for shelter whenever a plane passes overhead, we see only a hand full of their men folk coming into town. They have very little communication with anyone outside their closed society. They are not stupid people, they are master builders. We can see the works of their hands in the photographs shared on this web site. It is not our desire to force upon them our way of life. The sad thing about the whole thing is that we are two separate groups of people who live within just a few miles of each other yet neither of us knows just what is going on in the other community. Oh I'm sure their leaders stay informed, but to share that information with the people would erode their power, in their own estimation. The Lord said, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." That is my heartfelt desire for all the citizens of YFZ.

fttc said...

Here is a story from the Salt Lake Tribune. It sheds some more light on the Seth Jeffs story.


http://sltrib.com/search/ci_3533819

ATAR_i said...

The dogs smelled drugs?

Was this personal use, or is there the slight possibility that warren is doing a little freelancing?

fttc said...

It is interesting that there was no further explanation about that isn't it?

onthestreet said...

No need to explain away what doesn't exist, true.

ATAR_i said...

OTS - were you in the car?

Will you now accuse the dogs of lying?

Anonymous said...

With close to $180K in cash in the truck it shouldn't be a surprise that the drug dogs alerted.

Something like 80% of the money in the average wallet or purse has traces of cocaine.

Anonymous said...

fttc
The drug dog hit on the driver side of the door. Not on the money.

fttc said...

Anon 11:53

You seem to know details that were not included in the story, or did I miss something? Can you tell more details about the dog alerting to the presence of drugs? What was/is being done about that? Were there actually drug traces in the vehicle? These are the questions I expected the reporter to follow up on after mentioning the alert.

ATAR_i said...

Was the panel of the door taken off after the dog sniffed something. I'm assuming that the officers searched - do you know anything about that? Has the vehicle been released

onthestreet said...

Anonymous said... fttc: The drug dog hit on the driver side of the door. Not on the money.
2/28/2006 11:53 PM

STREET Reply: So you think law-enforcement is really that sloppy, to only hit one quarter-panel of the car. INDEED! I hate the smell of fish, and alot of what many of you say is MIGHTY FISHY. Not all. Some of you come up with some really good insight now and then. But mostly, what a bunch of LOSERS!

ATAR_i said...

It means the dogs smelled drugs in one specific area - very specific - the antithesis of sloppy.

fttc said...

Street

That is a classic case of not being able to refute the message so go after the messenger and create a diversion. Nice try!

Anonymous said...

To quote Bill O'Reiley, "No bloviating please, that's my job."

Truer words were never spoken concerning OTS's contributions to this and other similar blogs. All is just gas being expelled. From the smell I think it's methane.

onthestreet said...

Well, I agree that I haven't read all the new-reports on that particular case, but how much of that can you believe when you do read it? I'm not going after the messenger or creating any diversion. Just saying that it would be mighty sloppy to only check one piece of the car, don't you agree. Not having kept up on it, I don't remember...did they find drugs on him, or not? Or was it just residue from the money that's been in circulation, like others suggested. As for gas, cute but cheap. If that is where your conscience is, then who are you describing? We all just want the truth, correct? And in a public- media frenzie, that is most unlikely, correct?

Anonymous said...

This is a personality we haven't seen on this blog! You should name this one something that is entirely foriegn to OTS. It is the flip side of all we've seen here.

Anonymous said...

OTS sounds like a defense attorney trying to win his client's freedom by quoting from laws not recorded anywhere but in the church house at the home town of streetie, ruthie & jeffy, attny's of confusion. To be fair don't you think that the trial should be held on neutral ground say, Clovis, NM, Shallowater, OK or Ballinger, TX.

ATAR_i said...

This is Lucid OTS (that's a good thing) - actually seems devoid of mental illness, and talking. I don't agree with the viewpoint, but definately we've got a lucid persona on the other end. I wish the other OTS wouldn't post so often.

Anyhow - to answer your question OTS, they use dogs to find a scent so they can quickly discern wether to even look - and if the dogs can find the scent in only one place - and there's nothing there - I would think that they probably wouldn't bother searching the whole car. If they did find something - they might search the rest of the car.

It is my understanding that the cops who arrested Seth and Nathaniel had no idea *who they were*. You have to understand, most of the United States would have absolutely no idea who warren jeffs is - they don't even believe that polygamy exists in the United States. Despite what you've been told the world isn't out to get you - they don't even know you exist

Anonymous said...

and as a general rule---don't care either!

ATAR_i said...

How can they care if they don't know?

onthestreet said...

Ahh, not out to get ya. So why is the world so clammering to get him? Simple. They're out ta git ya. You're just lying to yourself, and to everyone else. Self delusion is a hallmark of an addict, and you must have got to Seths drugs even before he did.

onthestreet said...

Anonymous said (3/02/2006 7:26 PM):
To quote Bill O'Reiley, "No bloviating please, that's my job." Truer words were never spoken concerning OTS's contributions to this and other similar blogs. All is just gas being expelled. From the smell I think it's methane.

I SAID ON (3/02/2006 11:53 PM):
As for gas, cute but cheap. If that is where your conscience is, then who are you describing? We all just want the truth, correct? And in a public- media frenzie, that is most unlikely, correct?

You see, fokes, your methane gas thing is cute but cheap, and cheap gas is liable to plug up your gas-line, or in this case your intes-tine. Then you won’t be able to shit, fart, or do anything else. It’s called being damned or stopped-up. Then, everything you do just backfires, like a plugged-up car. Your methane will need a method of major medical proportions.

onthestreet said...

The title of this thread isn't "Birth Defects" for nothing. You are describing yourselves well.

ATAR_i said...

OTS: "you must have got to Seths drugs even before he did"

ATAR: "So you admit - Seth had drugs?"

OTS: "Self delusion is a hallmark of an addict"

ATAR: "So you admit - your an addict?"

ATAR: "Do you need some metamucil, fibercon, sugar free candies, castor oil, ex-lax, senacot, cascara, mineral oil, colace, surfac, or shall we do it the warren jeffs preffered way - ENEMA?

Anonymous said...

Repeat laughter from F.B.I. subpoena, amplify and rub it in.

polywatchin said...

There was a link to a video clip posted on the blog somewhere

that's where LE was interviewed and the cop said that oral sex was happenin

Anonymous said...

There is a video on the cruiser. You are swerving all over the road for many things.

Drugs, drink, lack of sleep or the other.

Nat confessed to the other.

onthestreet said...

TARRY: I'm not admitting anything about Seth. I just don't know. That's why I asked. Did they actually find drugs, or not. Just hearsay, right? Just idle gossip to enrage the public flame, and OH, SHAME!

onthestreet said...

When I said "Seth's drugs", I should have said "Seth's alledged drugs. He's probably as clean as anyone can be. I just haven't followed that story very close.

ATAR_i said...

But is it really a mistake?

Let me do my extra special calculations and get the code of what you really said.

Nope, the mistake was on purpose according to my calculations.