Wednesday, August 10, 2005

Pardon me - - - Just Who is Warren Jeffs?

No doubt this question has been asked by thousands of "Gentiles." I expect to receive untold numbers of unsolicitated additions from onthestreet. He has to champion his hero. "Himself"

My question to the rest of you. Did you grow up with Warren? Was he accepted within the community of his associates? Was he bullyed? Did he show early signs of abnormal thought patterns or have a tendancy toward sadism? What, do you think, sparked his unquenchable thirst for absolute power? Why has he betrayed those who have given their all in support of his "principal as only he sees it?" Why one man rule. Power corrupts. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

If he had total control of the UEP for 3+ years, what did you do to hinder him from skimming from your attempt at socialism and place those (your) dollars in Swiss or offshore accounts? Why didn't you stand up? If he was ordained by his own brother without outside witness or indorsement doesn't it sound like an inside job with you as the victim?

It appears to those of us on the outside that he has, through fear of reprisal, made himself absolute monarch of his immediate, uneducated followers. How did your leadership let this happen to you? Where were the safeguards to protect your investments, your very lives from the whims of a madman?

This whole situation reminds me a bit of the clash among the relatives of Mohammed, upon his death, going to battle to gain total authority. Thus the Shiite, Suni's and other factions in opposition to each other. Why the infighting? Joe Smith and his ffollowers into the priesthood have repeatedly assured you that all is well, keep sweet, don't ask questions, shut up, it's none of your concern, you don't know what's in your best interest etc. Isn't your prophet supposed to be looking out for your well being? If you are not among Warren's elect, you are probably scratching your head asking "wha' happen."

192 comments:

Faithful Woman said...

Isn't that what was asked at the end of the Nazi Haulicaust? What happened? How did you let this get out of control? After all, weren't the Jews the wealthy element in Germany and Austria?

Maybe the answer lies in the faith of human goodness, the faith that no one is so bad as warren or the nazi's look(ed)be.

How did it happen?

It did and is still happening.

What are we going to do about it now? What can we legally and polically do? Are our hands still tied?

The UEP, our homes are there. What are we doing about that? Are the intrests of all people who contrubuted to it being looked after?

We now have a new "baby sitter" in Bruce Wisen. Is he looking out for the best intrests of the people? Or is he privately selling off "excess" properties for way below the current rates to undisclosed buyers?

If we wanted the UEP to be looted, we could just let the warrenites continue to do it.
Oh yeah they are.

Anonymous said...

You need to realize warren is not really a factor any longer and someone else is going to take over.

Anonymous said...

One of the Barlows is mostly to take control, if the there is anything left to take control of.
Looks like alot of bills due and the money all skimed off for texas. fundymormon@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

Warren left all the unfaithfull at CC and Hildale and made off for texas. Left the buzzards to pick up what was left in CC and Hilldale and that's exactily what's happening..fundymormon@yahoo.com

mugwump said...

Why did YOU allow these things to happen? Wny didn't you do something about the problem before Warren Jeffs gained control of your finances and future? Can you truthfully blame the problem on anyone else? Why submit to bullying? If you think that the court appointed lawyers are going to steal your UEP funds, what are you doing to prevent it?

I don't suggest anything illegal but, you can collectivly find a good lawyer and contest the problem. If you just sit on your collectrive backsides and take no action you will probably lose your money. I think that a good lawyer might take your case pro bono just for the publicity it would bring to his law firm.

I don't believe in anything your religion teaches but, as a citizen of the United States of America, I believe that Warren Jeffs has committed a crime against ALL of the FLDS. If the Barlows or any other group take control IT IS YOUR FAULT because you, for once, did not take a stand in behalf of your wife(lves) and children.

Grow up. Get mean. Fight for what you need. So your self named Prophet tells you to repent from afar, so what, kick his bony butt out and look after your own selves. You know how to work. You nead to learn how to govern. There is no free lunch. And if your dream falls apart it is your own fault. Quit crying start doing.

onthestreet said...

Someone asked me for a definition of the concept "RIGHTEOUS". You people keep blaming us or accrediting us for "being righteous," as you've all been putting it. Thank you, but "there is none good but the father", as your Lord well said. Brother Jeffs is the father. In the FLDS community, he is the father. That is why the loyalty of the people is so, shall we say, religious, or do you prefer "righteous?" You call it "fierce" loyalty, and ultra-conservative. That's okay, my children, that's okay.

Anyhow, to answer your quest, and let's see if this actually does fit that prophet to the very tee:

RIGHTEOUS: In the Hebrew, the letter "e" is grace, and the letter "o" is holy. These leaves you people with a preliminary definition of being: In the right, grace and holiness, toward us.

RIGHTEOUS: Here's your english dictionary definition: Just, virtuous, good, blameless, right, noble, elevated, magnaminous, unselfish, incorrupt, moral, pure, honest, upright. . . I KNOW, I KNOW, Mr. Jeffs is NONE of these, and neither was Christ. He was possessed by demons, and claimed to be a king of all things. Can you imagine a god being so presumptive before the pipsqueek Mr. Caesar himself? Take note, that the world even blames the God of Heaven daily for violating ALL of these traits, and curses in his name daily (GD this, GD that). "And they shall curse God, and die." Having populated and then slain so many millions of people, to the world God is ANYTHING BUT virtuous, blameless, right, peculiar, etc. So, Mr. Jeffs is in really good company, another victim of the fierceness of the gross and guilty world.

RIGHTEOUS: A tzadik is Hebrew for a "righteous person." One who is hunting for lost souls, for fallen sparks that are trapped in the world of chaos, that is the work of the tzadik, the rectified soul of Israel (thus, the YFZ ranch is indeed a hunting lodge, as they said. He who is such a liar proves actually to be most truthful ("but the devil shall deceive all nations"). When the end of the tzadik (his fallen and uplifted sparks) become entwined in the beginning of the tzadik, he becomes the foundation or beginning of the world, of the generation of the world in which he rules, until the end of "days" and of new worlds without end. See Daniel 12:13). Here, "days" is written as "right", as in "righteous", for good reason. The day is on the right, and the dark on the left, as Christ said: Whoso is on my right hand at the last "day" shall be saved. So the end of days is right, the extreme right, or extreme, "for I cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." "My people shall be a peculiar people." (Ex. 19:5, Deut. 14:2, Deut. 26:18, Ps. 135:4, Eccl. 2:8, Titus 2:14, 1 Peter 2:9). All have agreed that the FLDS people are extreme, and very peculiar, so it fits him to the tee.

RIGHTEOUS: Hebrew for "Tzadik" (tsad deek or dick, or sad geek equals "righteous". Is that peculiar enough for you?). Tzad deek, or sad weeping. Yes, he sad and he weeps for you. Like his father before him, he often asks the ladies to play "The Nephite Lamentation," and often refers to the Book of Lamentations.

The Hebrew continues this peculiar definition: Tzadik: Righteous, just, lawful, to cleanse, to clear self, to justify self, to prosper." This is the definition in the ancient Hebrew, and guess what? All of you agree that Mr. Jeffs has indeed cleansed the community by casting many out, that he justifies himself, that he prospers, that he has done all this within the law, else why indeed hasn't he gone to the law and played your court games. He fired you all, and you all agree you are abundantly on fire. So, according to the ancient Hebrew matching to the tee your own behavior and accusations, you truly complement him and call him righteous. "And the mouth of the wicked shall honor the righteous, and every knee shall bow, every tongue confess."

RIGHTEOUS: I will spell out the word for you, and see if this describes the man:

R: The Hebrew letter "R" or "Resh" is head: This man is certainly that, acknowledged by all the authorities and media of the land, as "the Head of the largest fundamental church in America."

I: The Hebrew letter "I" is the same as "Y" or "Yod", which is crown, the infinate point. All have acknowledged that this man is striving for a crown. That's what really pisses them off.

G: Gimmel is "reward and punishment," and "a man in motion". Yes, everyone has now agreed that the man rewards and punishes people, and that also he is on the move. Very very good.

H: Heh is "expression, thought, action." This man certainly does think, and act, does he not. He thinks so much that he has defied the lawsuits of the grossness and the envy of the wicked, and has acted to the point that he has built a city and a house unto the Lord.

T: Tav is "sign and seal". What do you know, this man has shown you all a powerful sign of the end time, and speaks of it, and seals out all that offends God.

E and O are holy, and I won't discuss them here.

U: "U" is the same as double-U (W), and V: Thus, Vav is "Connection": Pillar, a vertical line that connects. Now the world has confessed that "he must have connections" that have seen him successfully through the building of a city, with the "Pillars" of the temple, and speaks now of a "vertical lifting up.

S: Samech is "endless cycle, wedding ring, symbols of divine light, creating a vacuum through initial contacts of light. All the world knows that the man certainly has wedding rings, and endless cycles of life going on. Not only that, but he has created vacuums, again something that turns the wicked just green with envy and red with rage, which are traits of the demons.

What does it spell? RIGHTEOUS! "Oh my, oh my, have I been mistaken all these years, you say. In spite of, or in agreement with, what all his enemies say about him, THE MAN IS ACTUALLY RIGHTEOUS!.

Anonymous said...

Don't pat yourself on the back to hard. You'll break a leg... or get wip-lash.

Anonymous said...

Oh please, onthestreet... if you can't come up with something more intelligent to say than all that jibberish, then give us all a break and put a cork in it.
Warren isn't worth the powder and lead to blow him to hell. And you know it!

mugwump said...

Oh go stick it, you pompous oaf!

Your endless pontification and meaningless jabber has become rather a bore.

F.L.D.S. Are you going to stand by and let a blithering idiot speak for you?

Get a life. You don't mind physical work but your minds are full of the mush your leaders have hand fed you for years

AGAIN I SAY, THE PROBLEM YOU ARE NOW FACED WITH, THE PROBLEM ASSOCIATED WITH THE LOSS OF CONTROL OF THE UEP IS NOBODY'S FAULT BUT WARREN JEFF'S AND YOURS. WHY???? BECAUSE YOU LET IT HAPPEN AND DID NOTHING TO PREVENT IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR HOPE FOR A FUTURE FOR YOURSELF AND CHILDREN GET A GOOD LAWYER AND GO TO COURT. GET A NEUTRAL, BONDED, AGENCY TO MANAGE YOUR FUNDS. BUT, MAKE THE NEUTRAL, BONDED AGENCY ACCOUNTABLE TO YOU, THE PEOPLE AND NOT SOME SELF RIGHTEOUS SPLIT PERSONALITY OR SOME BULLY BOY PROPHET OR, WANT TO BE PROPHET. JEFFS IS A COWARD. BELIEVE OR NOT!

IF HE WERE NOT A COWARD HE WOULD COME TO YOUR RESCUE. BUT HE WON'T DO THAT. HE WILL CONTINUE TO REMAIN IN HIDING. WHY? BECAUSE HE HAS COMMITTED A GREVIOUS SIN AGAINST THOSE PEOPLE WHOM HE SOUGHT TO LEAD. YOUR PROPHET IS JUST A SINFUL (SINFUL) MAN......HE HAS NO (NONE) POWER EXCEPT THAT WHICH YOU SURRENDER TO HIS CARE.

NOTE THIS: YOU COULD ALL BE STARVING TO DEATH AND HE WOULDN'T CARE. HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOU. HE NEVER HAS. HE NEVER WILL. HE IS VAIN, SELF ABSORBED AND TOTALLY WITHOUT HONOR. HE HAS BECOME A PARASITE TO YOUR ORDER AND A MILLSTONE ABOUT YOUR NECK.

HE HAS BEEN SUCKING THE LIFE BLOOD OUT OF HIS PEOPLE, AND WHAT DO HIS PEOPLE DO? ROLL OVER AND PLAY DEAD! OH YOU ARE SO WONDERFUL MR. PROPHET, PLEEEEEASE DON'T KICK ME OUT.
F.L.D.S. PUT ON YOUR COMBAT BOOTS AND KICK HIM (JEFFS) OUT. THE PERSECUTION YOU FACE IS FROM YOUR LEADER, NOT AN OUTSIDE FORCE.

onthestreet said...

You sound like Satan speaking:

AND JESUS SAID: "Get ye behind me, Satan."

Anonymous said...

THE MAN IS ACTUALLY RIGHTEOUS!. ????
What kind of drugs are you On, Street??? All this BS about defining terms and absolutely NONE of it applies to warren. Warren is about as dumb as a door nob. Is only slightly smarter than Tom Green, but just slightly. Not only not a profit, he is child molster and extremely stupid person. One can only hope that they get him in jail and someone with some inteligence takes over. Of course that would automatically not include you street.
Even the Barlows are smarter than Warren. They will probably be your new profit, one of the barlows and the sooner the better.

Member of second ward
fundymormon@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

What onthestreet really meant to say: Brother Jeffs is the father of lies, the lord of flies. In the FLDS community, he is the father of lies, the servant of the Lord of Flies, the Prophet of Lies.

Warren Jeffs, yearns not for Zion, he yearns to sing those ole Texas prison blues, yes Jeffs yearns to make that trip to Huntsville, Texas. Where the gentlmen in the ole cellblock shower wait his arrival.

Buzz, Buzz there Warren, uh street!

This Texan is ROFLMAO at ya!

Anonymous said...

you know street when they put warren in a cell for a couple of years maybe they will let you go with him to hold his hand and tell him how great he is every day. If your so stupid as to still follow him.
Warrens day as leader in the creek is OVER. He is already out of power and is not coming back. Just a matter of finding someone else. And finding someone else a with a little more inteligence should be fairly easy. fundymormon

Amanda said...

Street, you are out of your mind. You are so brainwashed that you can't hear how stupid you sound. I'm just going to ignore your posts from now on. Each one leaves me wondering what you said because they go in senseless circles. If I do read them, it will simply be for entertainment purposes. I have to admit they are quite amusing. Nothing more than that though.

Warren is a child molester. And it sounds like (if you are not him) you must be one too. No one could back him up unless they were also child molesters. Sickening. I wonder what kind of pride could be brought on from molesting children. Warren obviously hates himself. If he loves himself and was proud of himself, he would let children be children: goofing around, playing sports, laughing. But apparently he wasn't happy as a child, so no other child should be happy in his eyes. Since he suffered as a child all children will suffer.

mugwump said...

I am glad to see at least there are a few of you who are beginning to think for themselves. Your community, if it decides to pull together, quit the infighting, forget past wrongs, and forgive them shows some hope for the future. Ask yourself "Whom of this group has shown real leadership ability?" Can he/she be trusted to do the right thing if we elect them to represent our cause. Will they make decisions in a rational manner taking into account that they were given the responsability of doing the leg-work to help you regain control of your trust funds. Will they act and demonstrate worthiness to be able to act in your behalf?

Set up a simple set of rules, adopt them as a group. Set term limits on those whom you elect to be your representatives. If they show sincerity and dillegence in pursuing a solution, re-elect them or if they show a laxidazical or insincere attitude toward seeking you best interest, don't re-ellect them.

In selecting your representatives think carefully, who are the most trustworthy? Who has the best leadership qualities. Who has kept their own affairs in order? From those singled out to repent from afar, choose those who will not be selfish with their time or indicive in their stand.

Warren has shown he is no longer worthy of your devotion. He has betrayed your principle concerns, the lives of your families and the education of your children.

If you find that worthy leaders are in short supply, it is an indication that they have not received the basic tools required to succeed. They have been taught to follow, not lead. It's not their fault. If a maan shows to possess wisdom, honor him. If he has proven to act rashly or foolishly, avoid him.

BE SURE, HARD HEADED AND CALOUS. SOME INDIVIDUALS MAY DO YOUR EFFORT MORE HARM THAN GOOD. A PERSON WHO HAS THE CAPABILITY TO THINK THINGS THROUGH AND PROCEED CAUTIOUSLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY WILL SERVE YOU WELL.

Finally: I believe, as I believe you do that God placed us here for a purpose, to love, to serve Him and to spread the good news left to us by Paul and the gospels.

KEEP LOOKING UP.

ATAR_i said...

Well, if someone else takes over, it's the end of an era. Don't be discouraged - I actually understand this one.

You will look back on the times you had, and the bad times will fade, and you will be left with sweet memories. Nothing you have will compare to the way it used to be, and sometimes that will be hard.

Every once in a blue moon you might bump into someone from Texas, still living like you used to. Part of you will yearn for the community, and the other part will remember the cost, and you'll wipe your brow and say 'phew', I'm so glad I'm not them.

I know you guys have experienced some closeness, like a big huge family. And what you will have in the future will not be exactly like it. It's hard to re-create that exact sort of thing once it is gone. But, you can have something else, something different. I hope you allow yourselves to learn and enjoy, and find the good in your new lives.

Don't let the losses overwhelm you, it's going to be ok.

Anonymous said...

Well they have a 1.2 million dollar property tax bill coming up in a couple of months. They probably don't have the $ money to pay it. Looks like arizona is going to take care of the problem there. By selling off the property. Hope your not still living on the UEP there Street. You may be moving. You need to move down to the YFZ ranch in Texas street, it's your kind of place. fundymormon

Anonymous said...

So back to the topic: Who is Warren Jeffs?

He is the well-known author of the book: Fundamentalism for Dummies, also known as "The book of Mor-Man"
Subtitled "More-man, less God, or How to Worship Warren in a more Pleasing Manner to Himself"

Faithful Woman said...

Ruth is the only one who spells the Book of Mormon with an A for man.

Faithful Woman said...

warren is no father

And mugwump, you are preaching to the choir. Those of us on the blog ARE doing something about warren. Even if it is to stay in our homes and not give warren more power by leaving it all to him. Why do you think he went to Texas and Colorado? It is because he can't have the people "contaminated" with independant and strong minded renegades, that might bring about more of the same. he has to go where he can keep his sheep in ignorance and poverty.

Anonymous said...

Who cares who is. He is past history...........gone, soon to be in jail............fundy

mugwump said...

If you, members of that community are beginning to think and act on behalf of yourself and your neighbor then I salute you. You have joined the human race and may just demonstrate the strength to pull yourselves out of your current state.

Again, congratulations.

I might add that it would be to your great and long-lasting credit to begin to write a history of what has happened to you, the fund and your leaders. This book should be published and issued to every family in hope that the head of that family will make the contents of the book a part of your children's education. This one thing would go a long way in preventing a similar problem in the future.

Anonymous said...

Come on lets get real here. Religion, if you think the LDS or any other organized religion has the true and living whatever, profit, then you are a sadly misguided person. If you think the LDS are on some road to Heaven, you better look a little closer.
If you are a TBM in the LDS church you don't have anything over the FLDS..You are as big a sheepeople
as they are , and don't even KNOW IT.....The blind leading the blind.It's no less than amazing what the powers of darkness can do.

fundy

mugwump said...

Okay, we've all blown our fuses, let off steam or gas (in the case of OTS). Please return to the original question: Just WHO is Warren Jeffs? Did he drop out of the blue? I know that he was one of Rulon's sons but guessing, because of age difference between WJ & RJ I suppose he wasn't the eldest son by the first wife. Where did he come from? What were his problems growing up? Much of today's behavior, unless drug or alcohol induced, began during childhood. Where did he go to school? Who wee his friends? did he hang out with anyone in particular? How did he gain his power? Why did the rest of you stand around and let him take control? Does he have an on-going child sexual abuse history? Was he ever arrested? Is he married? Who, and how many wives has he taken? How many of his father's wives now call him husband? Do all these families live together?
How does he get around to "servicing" all wives? How does he maintain the energy to do so? Is he on viagra or some such medication? How is his general health? Is he an insomniac?
Does he have a history of mental illness? How many siblings does he have? How many of his brothers and sisters has he bannished? Why did they go willingly?

Does he have a college education? Where did he receive his college training? Does he have earned degrees? If so, what was his major field of study? What did he pursue, as a means of making a living, prior to him becomming his father's assistant?

I am sure that this is not an exhaustive questionnaire. Many of you know the answers to the questions posed here. Many of you know of other pertinent questions not addressed in this posting. Please feel free to share. We "Gentiles" are very interested in the person, and how he became so powerful.

onthestreet said...

Well now, the only way you will truly get any accurate information about God's man on earth, is by revelation direct from God, if that is possible considering your many pathologies and psychoses. Otherwise you can endlessly surmise, and never come to it, from eternity to eternity.

All you can do here on earth is hit and miss. But, that's a tiny step for man.

Anonymous said...

Soon as they arrest Warren there will be a very big article in the paper giving you all that information. He should be in the slammer for a couple of years. Be good for him. Did have 75 wifes at one time. Not sure he still has them today. Was a school teacher in SLC for a long time. That's where the child abuse suit comes from. One of the students way back when. Be good to see that charge go criminal , he would be in jail alot longer.
The question should be who are the barlows seeings how they are probably taking over even right now...The Barlows have the money to move the comunity out to other places , may not be such a bad idea. second ward-the best ward

Anonymous said...

Street if you think warren is where it's at you have'nt got a clue. Pack up for Texas.....YFZ Ranch needs you. the sooner the better.

Amanda said...

I have an idea. Let's all try to be kind to Street. I feel bad for him. He doesn't know any better. He has no idea, because he is brainwashed, that his "prophet" is nothing close to a prophet. And, that what he calls "Gentiles" are probably, in most cases, better people than Warren will ever be. Most "gentiles" treat their fellow man better than Warren treats those that have given everything to him. I say let's just be nice to Street. Show him that he is uneducated, brainwashed and has no idea what the outside world is all about. And, that most people in the world, Mormon or not, are good people trying to do good for others. I have to admit, I get quite annoyed by his posts, but after thinking about it I became sad for him. A false prophet is no prophet. And I am sad for him that he believes so much in someone that doesn't care for him at all when it comes down to it. Street, I wish you the best. For your sake, I do hope that Warren is as good as you say (although he still is a child molester). But, the people it will be hard on most when the truth comes out will not be those of us that already know he is a false prophet, but it will mainly affect those of you that believe so much in him. Good luck to you. And, when you realize that he is not everything that he says he is and that you believe he is, you can always have a friend in me.
very_happy_sunshine@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...
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onthestreet said...

Your comments are the ultimate insult, not being "NICE" at all. "Though he slay me. . ." I was born to this, and I may die with him. At least, if I may live for him, my death would be SWEET.

Anonymous said...

Yea, verily, sweeter for some than others.

Anonymous said...

Well you know that in first ward computers and watching TV are all forbidden. Computers and the internet are against church doctrine. THe FLDS are monitored and don't have these per church orders. I not sure street is necessarily who he says he is.
That's why you dont see the FLDS on the internet.....street is probably an imposter. ratling everybodys chain...

Anonymous said...

In reviewing the photos on Pilot’s website, questions do arise. Why is there a satellite dish on at least one house and wireless antennas many of the houses in FLDS compound in Eldorado? If the internet and TV are forbidden, why do they need this technology? Or is this technology just for the elite?

Anonymous said...

Good question 7:54 pm. Mr. P. Allred used the public computers in Eldorado quite often for the kindgom.

Anonymous said...

Who is Guy Allred?

mugwump said...

Amanda

Why be kind to jeff's other personality? Street can't change his spots and turn into a possum. ol' southern saying, "what ya' see is what ya' git"

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

they do communicate there sunday services via satelite and computer services. the general population are forbidden to have them. however those in the inner circles may have some access. The leadership all have modern up to date satelite and other computer services and communication services. They have quite a few airplanes and warren can move just about anywhere he wants to go..
Generally if warren is going somewhere it's not by auto, it's by plane. It maybe somewhat difficult to pull him over to the curb. seeing how your a pilot maybe you can run him down.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump...
Your personality intrigues me... any clue as to who you are, your connections...etc.?

mugwump said...

Anon: 9:33

Let's just say that I am an adult human being who has filled many pairs of shoes, traveled a bit and read a lot. I am a born again Christian who firmly believes that my salvation is by God's Grace, through my faith. Any good works associated with me are only a Christian bearing fruit. I cannot become, or get good enough, to earn a place in heaven.

And that testimony is Jeff's worst nightmare.

Anonymous said...

anything intelligent is warrens worst nightmare.

mugwump said...

Anon: 10:01

Thank You!

Faithful Woman said...

warren pritty much appeared out of nowhere to us here in CC. All we knew was that the new prophet, Rulon, trusted and leaned on him a lot.

As the years progressed, we learned a bit here and there, but most was only hear-say. We had no personal knowledge of warren's pros or cons till he was securely in a not-to-be-contested position.

mugwump said...

It's beyond my comprehension how obedience to a leader who appeared out of nowhere was able to gain the reigns of an organization as large as F.L.D.S. Doesn't your membership have anything to say about who is to be your leader? Why can't YOU have inspiration from God? You believe and teach that Joseph Smith received inspiration. Was he any more special than YOU? Must you always cower, bow and scrape to some creep who shows up and declares himself to be the "chosen" leader? What proof did he show you?

From outside observation, by reading pages of personal testimony, contributions to this web site, hearing testimony from those who were excomunicated and those who chose to leave of their own choice I think if you are allowed to consider what Jeffs has brought you to: Loss of UEP, school district probably going into recievership because of fraud. Hasn't Warren really shown you his true colors?

I'm surely glad that my church is governed by it's membership and not by some kooky up-start claiming divine appointment or by a self sustaining hiearchy with headquarters in Rome or Timbuktu.

I know the F.L.D.S. "faithful" are commanded to avoid any kind of reaction to any outside stimuli, but some of you have demonstrated a strong lack of faith in Jeffs and his status. I know you communicate with those who are inside. The key to success of any effort for you to gain control over your lives comes from your knowledge of the interworkings of the establishement. I do not endorse your beliefs, but do wish you well in your efforts.

"sic em"

fttc said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
fttc said...

Thanks for the encouraging words Mugs!

The truth of the matter is this: If fundamentalists are truly living thier religion they are each one guided by inspiration. We are taught by christ that our salvation is an individual endeavor.

There are those that have spoken against the false doctrines that put warren in power. These teachings did not start with warren. Our leadership kept them in check until the eighties when our Priesthood Council (the leadership) was broken up. The barlows and some other few began to set the stage for what we have today. Leroy Johnson was sick and they took advantage of this much like warren did with Rulon Jeffs. Those who at the time spoke up were looked at by the people as kooks.

The majority of the people decided they wanted a king. It was too much work to study and pray to find out if they were being told the truth.

Our people willingly blinded themselves to escape the reponsibility of their own souls. This is a repeat of the story of Samuel in the Old Testament.

onthestreet said...

OOPS, you mixed things up a bit there, fttc. Warren to us is a prophet in our day, like Samuel was to Israel in his day. Saul was the King in his day, like Dan Barlow was a sort of king in our day, though our church has never had a national state, but still the political entity of a city (Nauvoo, CC, etc). The closest we came to a national state was in Brigham's day, when the kingdom portion of our religion consisted of the Territory of Utah.

So, the FLDS never decided for a king, but quite the OPPOSITE. We settled for a Prophet, and in fact cast out our "king."

O, see how you err! But tis human to err.

fttc said...

Facts are stubborn things. To anyone willing to accept the truth warren is more like a king. Not at all like a prophet. By men's fruits shall you know them.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, but the prophets are anointed "priests and kings" unto God forever and ever. DO YOU NEED THE QUOTE?

Didn't mean to disappoint you.

Furthermore, the prophets are THE MOST MALIGNED men who ever lived.
"All who live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persucution."

Now, what you call "living godly" and what TRULY IS "living godly" are usually NOT THE SAME. Warren has not maintained peace in your families, but has torn apart families, etc, etc. Or have you only done that TO YOUR OWN FAMILIES? Sure, he was on the brunt end of the doing, after your damages were done, so he had to make the adjustments to STOP THE ABUSE, and to PROTECT WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

YES, "FACTS ARE STUBBORN THINGS."

Jesus, speaking to his disciples, said, “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother…. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

YES, "FACTS ARE STUBBORN THINGS."

fttc said...

You judge me of things which you know not of. My father was "adjusted". He was not abusive. Warren would not be honorable enough even to tell him what he was adjusted for. The truth was my father knew too much and he was willing to say to his family what he knew. Warren could not have that influence around as it would put some doubts as to his intentions into the minds of people.

The barlows railroaded the 'second warders' out of town years ago and now warren has railroaded them. If warren is able to keep hidden from the law long enough, there is someone more evil than he who will rise up and give him the same treatment. Cast your bread upon the water, and it shall again return to you.

Anonymous said...

mugwump,
The day Warren had a woman stand up and declare him the Prophet was the day to say goodbye.

Anonymous said...

I hope you don't mean you have no respect for women. I took it that you didn't think warren should be hiding behind their skirts. Better clarify for us.

fttc said...

Mugwump

Another point you mention is that we communicate with those on the inside. Very, very few will talk religion or even local politics with someone who is outside. They have trained their minds to shut down as soon as they hear anything related to it. If you continue to push it they will terminate the contact.

That is why I think this blog is such a good idea. I know there are many of them reading this blog in spite of warren's restrictions. Most of the postings they poo-poo and laugh at but the truth is still being put in front of them (no I don't mean you street).

They see street's comments which more closely reflect their beliefs and in time will see how ridiculous it is. Street may be a person who is not really supportive of warren. I don't know. I know many of his defenses have to be embarrassing to them. Especially the ones with more of the truth about how warren really is.

onthestreet said...

fttc: Nay, I don't judge you. We all just judge for ourselves. You've been through what you've been through, and we came to this earth to gain experience. Gain it. Forgive, and get on. Isn't that what some wise souls have been saying here? It's good advise, so long as you don't move on AWAY from God and His Prophet.

See, the order of God is revealed throughout scripture as an unbroken chain of prophets from Genesis to Revelation, from Eden to earth's paradisical glory. Without that, people are outside of the presence of God, and locked out of the Wedding Feast.

"How Warren really is" remains conjecture until you have that coherence of love and forgiveness. Otherwise, it only becomes an ego with an axe to grind, yes?

a soul said...

annon. 8/12/11:35

According to everything I have ever understood about the matter.

It is the responsibility of each person, to get close enough to our Deity, that we each can receive a personal revelation on matters pertaining to ourselves.

It is simply ludicrus, to think that, God, would use a man, or a woman, to declare to the people, just who, his Representitive is.

When Joseph Smith died; Brigham did not depend on the arm of flesh, to support his claim. When John Taylor passed away; W.W. taught "follow me, I'll lead you right", and "God will not allow the prophet to lead the people astray". John Wooley, however, went about the task he was assigned, relying upon God to reveal, to all who sought.

mugwump said...

It was not my purpose in beginning this string to make it a place to argue "who's in or who's out"

There is a WHOLE world wondering just who Warren Jeffs is, and why he gained his place in your society? Why you let him get away with the things that he has forced upon you? Why you continue to cling to him even as he is continually proving himself as less than trustworthy?

Anonymous said...

street you and the LDS have alot in common.......
Totally brainwashed.. Just like the LDS....YFZ ranch needs you street....

Anonymous said...

You obviously don't know the difference between a relgion and a cult.
Mine is a religion. Yours is a cult.

Anonymous said...

Cult or religion the brainwashing is the same. Religion is much more subtle brainwashing. Religion can brainwash you and you don't even know it...........These big organized religions,LDS, that look they have every going for them,don't, are doing same thing as a cult only they do a much better job...lead you down the path of hell and call it heaven.
Take a close look at street and others like him, they follow blindly just like 99 % of the LDS. Same difference, same results.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump,I think most flds are 3-4 generations in the cult,/when you ask why "YOU" allow warren to do this or that,These people were born,like their parents before them into this bizarre lifestyle.I think many hopefully,are finally realizing what a selfish dangerous dictator Jeffs is.Street is not a "Real"Flds,just a person who has a long history of mental problems.In fact Street has been excommunicated by Flds for many years.

mugwump said...

Anon. 6:40

I'll try to understand their problem. I'm sorry that they don't seem to have the inborn ability to challenge authority. They are the loosers. I don't agree with their lifestyle but, how much better would it be if indeed they had the right to make their own choices ans suffer consequences at God's mercy instead of at the Prophet's will.

Can't they see he is just a man?

Anonymous said...

No their not loosers, there is alot of nice people out there.
Yes I thought street was somewhere on the outside of the group there.
They need to get things organized, leadership needs to get a hand on it , quick. Warren is none factor anymore.......Needs to move forward. fundy

mugwump said...

Anon. 8:21

I'll go with your wisdom here. Even though WJ is a non-factor he still can do a lot of harm to reconciliation efforts. Have you seen photos of the UFZ Ranch? If not scroll down on the blog to "New Pictures" taken August 6.

A very substantial amount of FLDS money is invested here. A new town is literally rising from a terrain normally used to pasture sheep and goats.

Ben Bistline's book "The Polygamists of Colorado City" states that he believes this place will probably be deserted within ten years. I just don't know. There is a huge investment here.

New laws related to child marriages, both the father figure giving of the under-age daughter and any priest-like personality performing any sort of a ritual binding the two together in a bond resembling matrimony will be procecuted. Local law enforcement will not look the other way.

Anonymous said...

From what I've hear WJ took everything he get hold of out of CC and moved it to texas. From what I have heard he took a loan out on the UEP also. In scriptural terms he is under strong dillusion.
Zion is not in texas or even close. Had he remained in CC he would have been much closer to it.
WJ has lost his power base and once in court his money will be leaving. Followers are probably already leaving him. YFZ ranch is probably going to start shuting down within months. CC is located in a fortuitous location.

mugwump said...

Anon. 5:24 AM

I'll not attempt to get into your internal affairs. The whole purpose of this thread is to give an opportunity for those living inside polygamy to assess their situation and share the why, where, when, who, and how of WJ,

Anonymous said...

New bumper sticker - "Invest in the FLDS. We show a PROPHET"

mugwump said...

If you do, I haven't seen him. I think he is suffering for his contributing to a "non prophet business."

Anonymous said...

Well yes but alot of the most needy are not allowed to have PCs.
Good idea but not very practical.
Internet access and avaialability is not very good.. Unfortunate, but however true, alot of the women who are in polygamy would probably be single were they not assigned a husband. There is an up side to polygamy, and there are women perfectly happy in it. Despite all the winning and moaning from the few who it did'nt work for. Tapistry being a prime example. The media all project polygamy as totally criminal behaior, when in fact there are alot of quite happy women in it..
There is very a overlooked up side to it... Women on the outside have a much tougher time making it than women in a successful polygamous situation. Their life can be very good...Despite what the media says.

onthestreet said...

8/14/2005 5:24 AM

Haven't you heard or read. It is written: "Zion is the Pure in heart." Also, all of Amerca is Zion.

Need references?

mugwump said...

Not if you quote Joe Smith. He has no credit with me.

Anonymous said...

Not all the USA is zion. And texas is not zion. But Zion will be gathered in a place of protection.
The FLDS are soon to have a real leader.................I do send him against an ungodly nation, and against the people of My wrath do I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump, I have a question for you.

If the Bible says.. All the good you have done won't serve in the day that you sin, does that mean that after the day that you sin none of what you did before was any good.?

GBNF said...

Why is so much credit given to the Bible? All this Bible reference is insane! The Bible was written by man, for man, in a man's opinion, then it was translated by monks, and about every other Tom, Dick and Scarey that could pretend to read and write. I suggest that perhaps ya'll should consider saying what you think, without Biblical reference. I get it already, you read the Bible! I give much applause!! You are better than I!

Faithful Woman said...

Ever since I can remember, there has been a double standard in the "work", it wasn't called FLDS till after Uncle Roy died.

Teachings were taught and those who broke the rules were punished, unless they had fathers of much influence, then those rule breakings were covered up, hidden, rewarded with what they were chasing in the case of flirting with the girls, and not mentioning the event again.
How confusing can it be to the up and comming teens just aware of the politics to follow the rules and get nothing and see their peers of "better families" doing all manner of rule breaking and be rewarded? Then those teens say, to heck with the rules and go for what they want. Only to be "corrected" and kicked out.


How did warren take over? That is a good question. I once heard, from a movie of course, that a very good question was one with out an answer.

The man who was the natural choice of the people would have been the late Uncle Fred Jessop. But he was "too honest". He knew that God had not bestowed any special powers or ordination upon him, and he was old and tired, so he turned the leadership over to warren and threw his support to him. U Fred was afraid that if he gave warren any challenge, there would be another split among the people and warren would take many with him, breaking up families. By the time U Fred decided that warren was doing more damage to families when he had full reign than if he had been challenged, warren had him kidnapped, and he died hidden from the people he loved so much and who loved him. Even at his funeral, it was three hours of warren worship, no word about the life of so beloved a father to the community.


Another issue in the warren takeover was the Barlow factor. I'm sure I will get a lot of slack over this one but here goes anyway.
The sons of John Y Barlow, aka the Barlow Boys, spent their lives building up the one man rule to their huge families, in speculation that one of them would naturally be chosen as the successor, eventually. But warren usurped the position in such a way that the Barlows couldn't challenge him without confessing that their whole life teachings to their huge progenity that hung on their every word, that they were wrong all this time. So it became a matter of pride that they couldn't refute warren without refuting themselves.

And to those who may be thinking that maybe warren isn't entirely right, there is the prosecution issue to keep them on line. The elders often bring it up to the people that God's people have always been prosicuted, giving the persicution of the Christians in the Roman times as prime example, and the mobings of Nauvoo.

So when the media makes a big hype of the already unbelievable evants warren has instigated, and those of us who have been labled appostate by warren refuse to give in to him, the people are re-afirmed that they are doing right and warren must be a true prophet.

My beloved grandmother says that she has a testimony for herself that warren is the true prophet. warren just needs a few such respected members testifying of his leadership and the family who look up to these stalwarts just follow. They want to do right and hope to some day gain their own strong testimony of the "prophet".

Faithful Woman said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Warren, with UEP out of his hands, the FBI on his trail and him facing a prison term, it's pretty hard to see him in a place of power any longer. Even if he is broadcasting his poison from canada into the USA the FBI can trace it. JUST DON'T see him in the same power position. You Need to exercise your freedom, because you have much more than you did.
Stand up and enjoy your freedom, if the warren ites in the creek give you problems call the sheriff. Warren is gone , if you hear where he is turn him in and collect the bounty.

onthestreet said...

"It is hard for you to kick against the pricks, and you only kick him UP. You have added to his power and authenticity to the power of ten.

"Every time you kick "Mormonism" you kick it upstairs; you never kick it downstairs. The Lord Almighty so orders it."

(Discourses of Brigham Young [DBY], 351) ...
www.shields-research.org/ General/Quotables_Persecution.htm

onthestreet said...

Acts 9:5-6 - "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" ... When the apostle Paul recounts his conversion he cites the words in question...av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_ac9_5-6.html

What is a "prick"? Thorn (in your side), or crown of thorns.

Anonymous said...

GBNF said...
Why is so much credit given to the Bible? All this Bible reference is insane! The Bible was written by man, for man, in a man's opinion, then it was translated by monks, and about every other Tom, Dick and Scarey that could pretend to read and write. I suggest that perhaps ya'll should consider saying what you think, without Biblical reference. I get it already, you read the Bible! I give much applause!! You are better than I!

Dear GNBF, Then what anchor do you hold on to the Websters Dictionary, the Book of Mormon, or Gone With The Wind?

GNBF this is a war between good and evil, and what better book to use than the Bible which was first written with the finger of God. (Ten Commandments) Even ol' Onthestreet uses the Bible for his crutch!

I dare you to pick one up and read it. American Standard is a pretty good start.

fttc said...

Faithful

That last was about the only intelligent post all weekend that wasn't in response to street. He has dominated the discussion on nearly every thread.

Thanks! Hey, maybe you should put that in its own thread and see if we can get some discussion going. Would make for an interesting topic.

Anonymous said...

The bible was not written by man.
The bible has an answer for the ungodly.

Anonymous said...

How do you get a testimony of one's self that a man is the "Prophet."

Do you really count on one's feelings?

No wonder things are a mess.

Amanda said...

Ok, I have a question.

First, let's say that Warren is a man out for himself, ripping people off and when they don't do what he says he expels them. Now, for those of us that are not his followers, why would we care? We don't!!! We really only care that he is harming innocent children. Having sex with underage girls and also underage boys. And if he isn't harming them at the moment, he is allowing someone else to. Marrying them off to men so much older than themselves. Why would anyone allow this to happen? What excuse can anyone give for taking the innocents of a child away?

OTS..I'd love to see you pull some scripture out for this response. Because I know no where in any bible is having sex with children ok.

ATAR_i said...

OH Amanda - believe it or not - we're going to have to start the old 'Jesus's mother was only 12 so it's ok to have sex with little girls' discussion again (that's OTS version).

I'll let you take him on this time - make us proud.

ogre said...

even 16 years ago when Warren was my school teacher, he had his snitches and inside clic among the students and teachers alike

Amanda said...

Sorry Atar_i.. I must have missed that one.

Anonymous said...

Warrens supporters were from the beginning not voluntary supporters.
They existed somewhat like a dictatorial state. Being disposable peasants to the state and were treated as such. The FLDS system has been broken up. Warrens position as head dictator is over.
He has been reduced to a common criminal on the run. You greatly overestimate what little power if any he has left or followers. A much stronger leader is soon to take his place..............

mugwump said...

Anon. 10:51

Thank you for your information. Each little bit helps get a better picture of just what WJ may be up to.

Anonymous said...

Just when you think it this story can't possibly get any wierder....

A new chapter opens in Florida.

Anonymous said...

Whuhhh???

onthestreet said...

NONNY-1 (8/15/2005 11:31 AM): The Holy Script is the record of God's dealings with man, BOTH godly and ungodly, in Palestine mostly, and only from Eden to Christ. There are also other records of God's dealings with man, and the Bible names names, and other nations that Christ ministered to after the Crucifiction.

NONNY-2 (8/15/2005 2:28 PM): A testimony of a prophet begins with daily prayer, so that sin begins to cease in our heart and mind. Christ said it best: "Pray always, that ye enter not into temptation. Then comes the beginnings of a testimony of Jesus, but it is not a literal testimony until you come to see him face to face through the gatekeepers of the stations in the ascent. These gatekeepers are the true prophets. After tall, what is a "testimony"? Think of a court of law. In a courts of law, what is the highest quality of testimony? It is a witness, one who has seen and heard. This comes through the agency, authority, know-how, signs, tokens, and key-words of that one man on earth at a time who possesses these keys to Heaven. Now, this process involves many trials or tests of your faith, just like the FLDS is experiencing today. After all, analyze the word: "TEST-I-MONY", or Testing the I of many. See, it involves the two greatest commandments: (1) Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart (T), might (N), mind (H), and strength (Y), and (2) Love thy neighbor (many) as thyself. The feelings of man are in the gross element (M) and false passions (Y), which damn or stop the progress of the ascent, and which we are commanded to sacrifice fully and joyfully. This is the acceptable sacrifice.

AMANDA (8/15/2005 3:23 PM): Lacking the faith and grace of sacrifice and purity, you have no knowledge of the conception of the Holy Spirit. There is no sex, except by those who are caught and cast out of God's house. For God says he "will destroy that temple or person that is defiled", and "The Spirit of God does not dwell in unclean temples." We are the temples of God. Child abuse thrives, an epidemic, in the churches and cities of America, in your own neighborhood, and maybe in your own house, even to the point of lawful MURDER of little children, 4,000 per day!!!. There's your abuse. As far as the elder FLDS patriarchs marrying young girls, and the GIVING OF LIFE abundantly, they do what they see the Father do. Did not the Father impregnate the 13-year old Virgin Mary, and how old is he? 50? 80? 150? 500? 2,500? 25,000 years old. So who is the great CRIMINAL, and what are you going to do about it? The ancient Jewish Bat-Mitzvah or age of womanhood is 13-years old, and many ancient records confirm that Mary was betrothed at 12, and conceived at age 13.

In the ceremony, a deep sleep comes over the man, and the woman is overshadowed. It's right there in your own Bible. Do you believe God and His Word? (Gen. 2:21):
"And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof." (KJV) ... (Luke 1:35): St. Luke presents Mary as the humble woman overshadowed by the Holy Spirit in order that Christ be ..."And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." From the context of the Scriptures, the texts deal indirectly with Mary and Holy Spirit in Luke 1:41-47; 2:25ff.; in the Acts of the Apostles 1:5-8 in connection with 1:14; 2:1ff; and possibily also Galatians 4:4 and 6; and John 19:25-27 in connection with 19:30.

OGRE (8/16/2005 12:14 AM): The prophet had his watchmen, in fulfillment of the commandment of God: "Be ye therefore watchful, and weary not until I come", and
"cast out all evil from your midst." This is what you accuse your Redeemer as a "snitch," You sound like a paranoid drug-dealer who can't stand being caught and in constant denial, while the Prophet holds the moral high-ground for the faithful in the faith.

NONNY-3 (8/16/2005 10:51 AM): All of Warren's supporters from the beginning who made sacrifices, did so voluntarilly, some like Cain, some like Abel. And Abel's sacrifice was acceptable, being full and joyous, while Cain was rejected or cast out, being fretful and incomplete. Warren is a most benevolent dictator, one who dictates for the Lord, in behalf of the people. His power has never been greater, and increases eternally. Now I know some of you will compare all dictators to Hitler. How so. Secretaries do dictation for their bosses. Okay, they're dictators. Are they like Hitler. Not hardly. The Lord says: "I will rule with an iron hand in Zion," with 144,000 Saviors on Mount Zion." Need you fear and tremble? Not if you do well, says the Lord to Cain, and to you. Yet, the wicked shall tremble, and call for the rocks to fall upon them. "They shall weep and wail and gnash their teeth." It's all the Word of God. Do you need references?

NONNY-4 Said (8/16/2005 4:05 PM) "Just when you think this story can't possibly get any wierder.." Yes, what you hate and fear and mock will fall upon you to the fullest. The Lord said: "My people shall be a peculiar people (wierd)", and the prophets all proclaimed that they were strangers (wierd) in a strange (wierd) land, a wierd nation, a wicked and murderous world who mock and violate the Word of God daily. Now THAT IS WIERD!

the_lerker said...

Ots, I refer you to the 13th article of faith.......we believe in doing good to all men, and in HONORING, OBEYING, AND SUSTAINING THE LAW.

Just one of the fundamentals of the mormon religion. And yes, he was talking about the laws of the land.

You follow (or are) a man that has absolutely no regard for the laws of this country, laws that protect everyone in general and are put in place for the betterment of society.

No, Warren will not be killed if he answers the charges that have been brought against him. If he's innocent, he will go free. If he's not, it's prison time (and he probably won't survive that, even the worst badasses in prison have the least respect for child molesters). You just ask yourself what he's afraid of if he's so innocent.

By the way, Warren is the antichrist. Just a newsflash for ya. From how I know it, satans' plan was to FORCE everyone to heaven, but he wanted the glory. Sounds mighty similar.

Also, God didn't mean for his children to go through hell in this life, that's for after we die. You see, if we're good, we go to heaven, if we're baaad, we go to hell.

Anonymous said...

WOW Steet you just boggle the mind.
Where do you start. Most of your diatribe has nothing to do with Warren or plural marriage. Certainly what Mary did some 2 thousand years ago is NOT relevant to the discussion, AT ALL. The people sacrificing, your terms, was NEVER AT ANY TIME voluntary. IT WAS ALWAYS WITH impied threat of losing either home or Wife(S).
HE WAS A DICTATOR in all definitions of the word. Unfortunate person who has lost whatever connection he may ever have had with the Almighty. His power is OVER. Street read the newspapers he is reduced to a common criminal. And that was all was to begin with. Warrens mind is cluttered with false religious ideas that don't work and never will such as your's is. You must be related. People have been reading things into scripture for thousands of years that are not there. Very dangerous when applied by people who don't know what they are doing. Like you street and warren. You have a legitmate excuse for your problems but Warren is going to jail.

onthestreet said...

JERKER: Article 13: There you go, my friend. That is my highest hope for you, that my words will do you good. The choice is yours. We force no man or woman, but rather cast them out to repent. I think everyone agrees with that. Now that sustains the law, the casting out of criminals, and the living of the higher of many conflicting American laws. Every lawyer will confirm that American laws conflict. Do you live your fundamentals? Oh, sorry I forgot; you're not fundamental at all.

You say a man won't be killed. Then you say in the very next breath that he "won't survive". SEE? The liars shall be known. All people know how the "law" ruled against the most innocent men and women of Biblical and modern times. So you multiply your lies.

You say: "By the way, Warren is the antichrist. Just a newsflash for ya. From how I know it, satans' plan was to FORCE everyone to heaven, but he wanted the glory. Sounds mighty similar".

Very good: See, instead of forcing men to stay, he did just the opposite. He cast them out, gave the abusers their freedom, like unto yourselves, instead of preselyting to you. Proselyting has been over for 115 years in the FLDS Church, according to the Word of the Lord.

Finally, you say: "Also, God didn't mean for his children to go through hell in this life, that's for after we die. You see, if we're good, we go to heaven, if we're baaad, we go to hell."

Your lies never cease:

What was the attitude of Jesus to the earth. ... The judgement on
Adam was to "return to the earth, and to the dust you shall return".

Also, what HELL did the Lord provide for the empires of Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Egypt, Rome. . . and in the now DAILY Judgements of God upon this nations. Is not terrorism somebody's judgement? And the Lord says it will not cease "UNTIL THE CONSUMPTION DECREED".

Authorized KJV Bible -- Isaiah Ch. 10, Authorized King James Version of the Holy Bible. ... [yet] a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness...www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/av/isa010.htm

the_lerker said...

grrrrrrr....some peoples children(he walks over and starts banging his head against the wall in frustration)

mugwump said...

See 9:05 post: Will the "Real" Warren Jeffs identify himself.

No need to repeat myself.

Anonymous said...

Streetie, You said ...The choice is yours. We force no man or woman, but rather cast them out to repent.

Question? Who is WE and when can the cast outs come back after repenting from afar!

Jesus told his disciples to forgive 70 X 70 and then forgive agaim somemore. i can't put my finger on the scripture right now, but I believe God requires us to forgive those who have hurt us, before God forgives us.

I am sure some of the cast aways have asked WE for forgiveness.

But WE are hard hearted like Pharaoh aren't WE.

Onewaystreet

Anonymous said...

onthestreet, you are saying: "Proselyting has been over for 115 years in the FLDS Church, according to the Word of the Lord."

This is a true statement. Therefore, why do you go against "the Word of the Lord?" Do you claim you are somehow exempt... that you do not have to bow to the very edict you boldly declare? Do you delight in "casting pearls before swine?"

You are in a dangerous state of rebellion, son.

May God have mercy on you.

Anonymous said...

Has Warren Steed Jeffs fled the sunbaked desert for the balmy climes of Florida?
A new wanted flier circulated by the FBI lists Leesburg, Fla., as one of a handful of places where the elusive polygamist prophet may be in hiding - along with as many as 30 followers and "a number of loyal and armed bodyguards."
"Different tips and information coming to our office have him sighted or a look-alike sighted in Florida," said Deborah McCarley, FBI special agent in Phoenix, Ariz. "We don't have any definitive information, it's just one of the many places that has come up."
Leesburg, population 15,956, is a retirement haven in the middle of Florida. It is known as "Lakefront City" because of its 1,400 lakes. The flier says members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints may be trying to acquire property in the area.
The sect, which has about 10,000 members, practices a 19th-century version of Mormonism that includes plural marriage, a practice publicly disavowed in 1890 by the mainstream Mormon church.
Wherever they are, FLDS faithful are likely to stand out; women tend to wear modest dresses and keep their hair long and braided, while the men wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts.
The Jeffs flier appears on the FBI's "most wanted" August listings, alongside descriptions of men and women wanted for securities fraud, aggravated robbery, murder and drug offenses - such as Mark Anthony Miclette, charged with identity theft, and Elizabeth Anna Duke, a member of the May 19th Communist Organization who has been a fugitive since 1985.
There is a $50,000 reward for information leading to Duke's arrest - five times the amount the states of Utah and Arizona have offered for help capturing Jeffs.
The 49-year-old FLDS leader is wanted on three charges of sexual conduct with a minor in connection with his role performing marriages between underage girls and older men. He also is charged with unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.
The flier notes that Jeffs has not been seen by any outsiders since 2004, when government scrutiny of the FLDS community based at the Utah-Arizona border intensified. Jeffs and the FLDS church also have outposts in Texas, Colorado and British Columbia.
But other spots also are purported to be among Jeffs' possible hiding places, such as Jackson County, Mo.; California; Nevada; Mexico; and even Europe.
Ezra Draper, a former FLDS member who now lives in Bonners Ferry, Idaho, told The Salt Lake Tribune Tuesday he suspects Jeffs may have traveled to Bountiful, British Columbia, in early July, given the sudden appearance of dozens of FLDS faithful in the area.
"I saw people I hadn't seen in a dozen years," Draper said. "I know he's been up here half a dozen times before this $10,000 reward was put out."
Then again, Draper admits he is clueless to Jeffs' whereabouts. "Him and Osama bin Laden could be in the same cave for all I know."
brooke@sltrib.com

onthestreet said...

NONNY-1 (onewaystreet) (8/17/2005 9:14 PM): You, we must forgive all men. In so doing, we needn't wallow in the mud with them, or welcome their presence to continue corruping our women and children. Jesus said to forgive all, and even your enemies. Yet, what did he do? He CAST OUT the money changers, and proclaimed that he would declare TO ALL THE WORLD (except for his elect): "DEPART FROM ME, you who work iniquity." (Mt. 7:23), and gave the parable and the command to the watchmen to SEPARATE THE WHEAT FROM THE TARES, lest the whole house become corrupt. The five unwise virgins were still 'virgins', yet LOCKED OUT.

Matt. 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. (many children are fruits, or all who would do so). Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

NONNY-2 ( 8/18/2005 12:19 AM): Defending a prophet and building up my own faith, and encouraging a few of the faithful, IS HARDLY PROSELYTING. Yes, God has given me great mercy. If I rebell against SIN, that's faith, and it's nice for you to ACKNOWLEDGE YOURSELVES AS SWINE. This is why I never give even 1% of the gospel that I know, in fulfillment of the command:
"Cast not thypearlsbefore swine." When WE see our grossness, then we can better repent and purify our lives.

Mt.7:6: "Go ye into the world, saying unto all, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come nigh unto you. "And the mysteries of the kingdom ye shall keep within yourselves; for it is not meet to give that which is holy unto the dogs; neither cast ye your pearls unto swine, lest they trample them under their feet.

"For the world cannot receive that which ye, yourselves, are not able to bear; wherefore ye shall not give your pearls unto them lest they turn again and rend you.
"Say unto them, Ask of God; ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
"For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and unto him that knocketh, it shall be opened." (Mt. 7:6)

mugwump said...

See details on my latest addition to Will the Real Warren Jeffs....

ots what warren DOES speaks so loudly that what he says, and as far as that goes, what you say, is tragic. Your hopes have been dashed. Jeffs has been identified for what he is, a common criminal.

onthestreet said...

SO WAS JESUS.

mugwump said...

No, Jesus was an innocent, unjustly tried by the Sanhdrin, carried to herod who beat him and sent him to Pilate. Pilate after questioning him twice, declared he found no fault with him. But, when the Priests and Scribes incited a riot, Pilate, to placate them offered them the freedom of Barrabas or jesus, again the priests and scribes controled the crowd and shouted to release Barabbas, their choice was made./ Pilate washed his hands of the affair and declared that he was innocent of Jesus blood. He turned his back and the Jews carried him to Golgotha (Calvary), the place of the skull where Jesus was crucified, between two thieves.

ots, just read your Bible and learn the truth and quit trying to make up your own scripture, to serve your own god, Warren Jeffs.

onthestreet said...

See? Between two thieves, as a COMMON CRIMINAL. And Warren's own senator and governor praise him. Senator Hatch and Governor Leavitt are both on record for praising the FLDS Church and its leaders, and had the Patriarch appointed to one of his official State Boards.

And although innocent, he is turned over to the modern day scribes and pharisees (media and certain leaders), very much like Jesus himself was (by whoever controls the crowd).

History repeats itself.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, but you err. There is only ONE GOD: Father, Son, AND Holy Ghost, AND "144,000 SAVIORS ON MOUNT ZION", AND that's just from one planet.

Now, multiply that by centillions and centillions of planets, and hold up your hands, and tell me how many?

onthestreet said...

Oops, sorry. That was in reply to this from the Mug.

"ots, just read your Bible and learn the truth and quit trying to make up your own scripture, to serve your own god, Warren Jeffs.

8/18/2005 11:08 PM

Anonymous said...

Jeffs on FBI's most-wanted list

BY PATRICE ST. GERMAIN
patrices@thespectrum.com
ST. GEORGE - Warren Steed Jeffs, 49, the prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints, is on the FBI's list of wanted fugitives for the month of August.

Jeffs was indicted by a Mohave County, Ariz., Grand Jury in June on charges of sexual conduct with a minor and conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. Jeffs, whose whereabouts are unknown, is also charged with unlawful flight to avoid prosecution. A federal arrest warrant was issued on June 27.

Debora McCarley, a special agent with the Phoenix office of the FBI, said information has been received that Jeffs is either in Texas or in Bountiful, British Columbia, Canada. It's unlikely that Jeffs will be found locally.

When asked if Jeffs would be arrested if he is seen in the twin cities formerly known as Short Creek, Fred Barlow, police chief of the Hildale-Colorado City Town Marshall's Office, would not comment.

"I will not make any comment on that. If I have any comments to the newspaper, I will call you. Until then, I'm not making any comments," Barlow said before hanging up.

Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith said the search for Jeffs is higher on the radar screen now that it's a federal issue, but for his office it doesn't change much. There are no Utah charges pending against Jeffs, but Smith said his department will continue to look for him on behalf of Arizona.

"The search for Jeffs has been going on for some time and it's hard to get any intelligence on him, but I can't imagine running into him at Wal-Mart," Smith said. "It would be very foolish for him to go out in the community, at least where law enforcement is familiar with what you look like."

Smith said he hadn't heard that Jeffs was on the FBI fugitive list, but said his office is aware of the charges against Jeffs and, to the best of his knowledge, his officers are aware of the charges and what Jeffs looks like.

"If they came in contact with him they would arrest him, but for the last year or so, no one has seen him," Smith said.

According to information on the FBI Web site, Jeffs "may be traveling with a number of loyal and armed bodyguards and should be considered armed and dangerous." It also states that Jeffs may be in Leesburg, Fla., on property some believe was purchased by FLDS church members.

McCarley said the FBI got involved because Mohave County officials were unable to locate Jeffs.

"The Mohave County Attorney's Office requested assistance and we often do that when there are circumstances (like this)," McCarley said. "Most of the time, it's for more egregious crimes, but this is also one of those cases that warranted our assistance."

Since the FBI has offices across the country, McCarley said it has more resources than local law enforcement agencies. The FBI assists by distributing wanted posters and placing information on its Web site.

While the Web site states that Jeffs is traveling with loyal and armed bodyguards and should be considered armed and dangerous, McCarley said there isn't any definitive information that Jeffs or his followers are armed.

"We do know there are people who are loyal to him and, just depending how loyal they are, they may take action to protect him," she said. "We want to caution any individual that may see him not to detain him for authorities."

Last month the Utah and Arizona Attorney's General offices offered a $10,000 reward for information leading to Jeffs' arrest.

mugwump said...

A number so vast that it defies identifaction.

But, you fail to recognize that there is only ONE GOD, ONE SON, ONE SPIRIT.

Methinks some of your spirits are kin to those pigs commanded into the Sea of Galilee when Jesus cast them (the evil spirits, demons) out of the Gadaran demonic. I firmly believe that some of that family of demons have established theselves within you. I believe that it is those demons who speak in your behalf. I don't think that you, ar anyone with whom you come into contact can or will cast them out. You are in all probability going to have their presence with you throughout your life.

Faithful Woman said...

Hey! Is that the answer to street's multi personality issue?

"We are Leagon because we are many."

mugwump said...

I think that is a pretty good assumption.

Anonymous said...

Quite picking on street. He is not changing anytime soon.

mugwump said...

No, and neither am I.

Anonymous said...

To Mugwump's mother:

Mugwump needs to be changed.

I can smell it's been too long.

onthestreet said...

lol nonny: Guess watfokes: Joseph heads up the Nauvoo LEGION, Jesus was ACCUSED of possessing a demon, and God heads up the HOSTS of heaven. Does that make them all demons, or ONLY YOU in your screaching and your war of words.

If you make good use of the Word of God, then it is not"screaching" but music.

As for which JUVENILE will yield first, I put off childish things and yield to you. Now take a break Muggy, and release the demons from your heart.

onthestreet said...

That is: Let's take a breather, and here's a virtual hugfomug.

mugwump said...

Yeah, you go take a reality lesson and I'll go fishing.

onthestreet said...

Don't drown now. Jonah got a real reality check with a fish.

mugwump said...

Yes, and when he hit the shore, he made a bee-line for Nineveh, he didn't even stop to change into his preaching clothes.

onthestreet said...

lol

Anonymous said...

modern raid on polygamy

By Brooke Adams
and Pamela Manson
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune

Thread by thread, a polygamous sect's control over a community at the Utah/Arizona border is being plucked apart.
The school district is in state hands. So is a communal property trust. Top officers in the local police force have lost certification. A judge faces similar action. Eight men are charged with engaging in sexual conduct with underage girls. The sect's leader, Warren Jeffs, is in flight, pursued by state and federal authorities and the target of three civil lawsuits.
There has been no dramatic show of force by government, such as the 4 a.m. raid Arizona staged 52 years ago in what then was known as Short Creek. And yet the people here believe they are under siege.
To faithful members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in the twin cities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., what is happening is thinly veiled religious persecution that offers them a chance to prove their faith, much as their people have had to do in the past.
"The stance of the people in general, and I say this carefully, on the religious side of this the people are taking a Christian stance to turn the other cheek and not be aggressive and not be antagonistic and let things fall where they may fall," said David Zitting, Hildale mayor and an FLDS member. "The history of the Mormon people in general has been these types of things have happened, to a whole community much larger than this community."
Outsiders, of course - government officials, Jeffs' critics and even other fundamentalists - see something else entirely at work: Justice in action.
Accusations of religious bias are "simply not true," said Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard, who several times has called the 1953 raid a mistake. "We've simply exposed Colorado City and Hildale to the same scrutiny as the rest of Arizona and Utah."
Scrutiny brought on, the states say, by evidence of financial mismanagement, criminal acts and disregard for human rights.
The FLDS practice an early version of Mormonism that includes plural marriage, which was disavowed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1890 as a condition of statehood. The 10,000 FLDS members participate in a United Effort Plan that holds in trust most property, including homes, in the twin cities.
Utah has honed in on UEP trustees for allegedly failing to protect the trust against lawsuits filed by former members. But Paul Murphy, spokesman for Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, denies any intent to hurt the FLDS church or its people.
"Our goal is the same for all citizens of Utah, that people are safe and that people can stay in their homes," Murphy said. When women or children are abused or taxpayers defrauded, "we want to make sure the laws apply to everyone and that people are protected."
Ed Firmage, a constitutional law professor at the University of Utah, said that like their predecessors, the attorneys general have "tried to walk a moderate line . . . by using the law against a specific situation, not as a broad sword against polygamy."
But civil rights lawyer Brian Barnard, who represents three Salt Lake County residents who are challenging Utah's ban on plural marriage, believes the state machinery is aimed at polygamy.
He cites the states' moves to decertify two officers on the twin cities' joint police force because of their practice of plural marriage. "That seems to be real close to prosecuting people for polygamy."
Barnard also believes that Utah's move to take control of the assets of the United Effort Plan trust sets a dangerous precedent.
"The government should not be involved in policing religious groups' use of their consecrated funds," he said. "The attorney general has chosen an unpopular group to attack, in the hopes there will be no public opposition.
"What if the next attorney general is biased against another religious group? Should the state of Utah intervene and make sure the Scientologists are using their resources 'correctly?' " Barnard said.
"Today, the fundamentalists, tomorrow the Jehovah's Witnesses?"
After all, he points out, it's happened before: The LDS Church disavowed plural marriage after the federal government threatened to confiscate its assets.
"Personal religious beliefs and practices, and the internal functioning of churches must be beyond the control of government," Barnard said. "The First Amendment so provides."
David Zolman, a former state representative from Taylorsville, suggested in 1999 that authorities build a bridge to the then-insular polygamist communities. Aside from plural marriage, he said, most are law-abiding people.
"It's a very delicate trade-off here," Zolman said. "On the one hand, there appear to be alleged violations of the law. On the other hand, the [anti-polygamists] would have the entire group painted with a broad, lawbreaking brush. There's a lot more heat and not enough light on this subject for anyone to make any definitive statements."
Rod Parker, a Salt Lake attorney who represents the FLDS church in some matters, said FLDS members feel mistreated and misjudged and have lost faith that the justice system will give them a fair shake.
Shurtleff, Parker said, has positioned himself as rescuer of the FLDS people. "But it is becoming clear to them he isn't. He is viewed as attacking [them]. What else is he doing, except to destroy this church and community?"
Scholars and lawyers aren't the only ones offering divided views of events in the twin cities; so do members of other fundamentalist groups.
The way Dave Watson sees it, the government is trying to normalize a rigidly controlled and isolated community. He also views what's happening as the inevitable consequence of breaking laws.
"When we see the law being violated by these other groups, our heart goes out to them," said Watson, who belongs to the Salt Lake County based-Apostolic United Brethren. "We don't feel a threat because we are not violating laws like these other communities have been, like incest and underage marriage."
Watson said members of his group engage in plural marriage, but feel safeguarded by assurances that the state won't prosecute consenting adults.
Anne Wilde, a founding member of the advocacy group Principle Voices of Polygamy, said too many red flags had been raised in the twin cities for government to continue to merely stand by, as it did for decades.
"They are trying to address the crimes, separate those from the culture," Wilde said. "I am hoping they don't overreact, but that remains to be seen."
Other fundamentalists are uneasy about it all.
"This is not new for us, to have people come and have an agenda to put us down or put us away," said Marlyne Hammon of Centennial Park, a separate fundamentalist community located down the road from the twin cities. "This is a little different approach, but I believe it is kind of the same plan. You're wondering if they have a plan to let things run until everything dries up."
Others say that if FLDS rule over the twin cities is being systematically dismantled, the people have no one to blame but themselves.
"This was self-inflicted," said Ezra Draper, who left the community in 2002 after becoming disillusioned with Jeffs. "Utah and Arizona gave us the ability where we could live our religion as consenting adults."
It was Jeffs, after all, who drew increased media and government attention to the community. It began with his edict that children leave the public school and ratcheted up as he began expelling men from the church and reassigning their wives and children to other men, punishments that continue today.
Draper describes a church meeting held shortly before he left in which an FLDS leader talked about pressure from Utah and Arizona to stop underage marriages and welfare fraud.
"The deal to us was if we would just stop [those things], they would have no reason, or very little reason, to continue to pursue the FLDS," Draper said. "I thought 'Hallelujah. We've been asking the Lord for peace all our lives.' But before he finished his paragraph he told us that they'd answered Utah and Arizona with 'No deal.'
"I felt like we were basically given the opportunity to have peace, and Warren chose war."
Jeffs has purportedly told his followers that God is finished with Short Creek - at the same time he urged them to gird for the coming conflict and encouraged them to keep faithful and silent.
There has been no mass exodus from the twin cities, though some of the faithful have taken up residence at new FLDS outposts in Colorado, Texas, Nevada and, it is reported, Florida. And word is that fewer than a dozen families have fled the towns because of Jeffs.
That said, the towns now seem eerily quiet and, even on hot August days, few children - or anyone else for that matter - are seen out and about.
In 1953, residents gathered around a school-yard flagpole after receiving word that Arizona lawmen were on their way and sang "My Country Tis of Thee."
Today, they are maintaining a stoic silence, perhaps relying on the many "No Trespassing" signs that have proliferated throughout the community to express their views.

School district: Arizona authorities have filed a petition to take financial control of the Colorado City Unified School District, which had been overseen by FLDS members.
The United Effort Plan Trust: A judge has stripped the FLDS trustees of power and appointed a special fiduciary to protect the trust assets.
Criminal charges: Eight men in the FLDS community have been charged with various sex crimes for their alleged marriages to minor girls.

Warren Jeffs: The FLDS president has been charged with two sex charges for allegedly arranging a marriage between an underage girl and a married man and with fleeing prosecution. He is on the FBI's August Most Wanted list.

Actions directed at the FLDS community in the past two years:
Indictment of Warren Steed Jeffs: The president of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was indicted in June by a Mohave County, Ariz., grand jury with one count each of sexual conduct with a minor and conspiracy to conduct sexual conduct with a minor. The felony charges allege that Jeffs arranged a marriage between a 16-year-old girl and a 28-year-old man who already was married. A federal charge of unlawful flight to avoid prosecution was added a few weeks later. Utah and Arizona are offering a $10,000 reward, and the FBI has posted Jeffs on its August Most Wanted list.

Indictments of eight Colorado City men: The defendants were indicted by a Mohave County grand jury in June on various charges of sexual conduct with a minor, conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor and sexual assault. The charges stem from their alleged marriages to teenage girls.

United Effort Plan Trust: A Utah judge this spring suspended the trustees of the fund, including Warren Jeffs, and appointed a special fiduciary to protect the assets, estimated at $91.5 million. Another judge is considering appointing new trustees.
School Receivership: A new Arizona law allows the state school board to place districts in receivership if they are being financially mismanaged. The state Attorney General's Office served a search warrant on the district in May and removed financial records. A petition asking that the district be placed in receivership is pending.

Decertification of police officers: The Utah Police Officer Standards and Training Board decertified Hildale Town Marshal Sam Roundy and Officer Vance Barlow in March, after an investigation by the Utah Attorney General's Office into an allegation that as many as half of the force's officers were practicing polygamy, a felony under state law. The Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training Board is considering whether to decertify the police in that
state.

Prosecution of Rodney Holm: A jury in Utah's 5th District court convicted polygamist and former police officer Rodney Holm in August 2003 of bigamy and two sex counts for stemming from his "spiritual marriage" to a then-16-year-old girl. He served a year in jail but is appealing the conviction to the Utah Supreme Court. Holm is among the eight men now charged by Arizona.
STATE OF
Longer subhed about the current situation, explaining the difference between older ways the law dealt with polygamy and modern ways.
With eight men in their community facing sex charges, members of the FLDS church say they are victims of religious persecution
Though they haven't faced a police raid like one in 1953, members of the FLDS church claim recent state actions constitute religious persecution
With their leader and other members facing sex charges, members of the FLDS church say they are victims of religious persecution
From a raid in 1953 to recent indictments and state intervention, members of the FLDS church say they are victims of persecution

Anonymous said...

In the future, please just post a link.

Thankya.

mugwump said...

I saw a picture of WJ, taken a few years ago. He waw with another man, who was not identified in the photo. If WJ was female, I'd be led to believe he suffers from anirexia nervosa. He appears so emaciated that he, at least to me, seems to be in poor health. Those of you who have seen him personally, within the past few years can comment upon this addition to the web without having to make a judgemental call about his doctrine or beliefs.

Faithful Woman said...

He can't stand fat people, neither could his father.

mugwump said...

To each his own. Does he have some pituitarial problem?

Are other members of his family so cadaverous? For his height he is extremly underweight. A man 6'4" who weighs 200# is considered as very lean. He doesn't appear to have much muscle tone. Do you know if, that a child, if he was continously teased because of his being extra thin? If so, that might be a huge contributor to his desire to be so controling.

onthestreet said...

He is very liberal, and "the liberal soul shall be made fat".

mugwump said...

quoteth from whom?

LIBERAL?????

Webster's New World Dictionary

1. originaly, suitable for a freeman; not restricted: now only in liberal arts, education etc.

2. giving freely; generous

3. ample; abundant: as, a liberal award

4. not restricted to the literal meaning: as, a liberal interpretation of the law

5. broad minded

6. favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education, etc.; specif.,[also L-], favoring political reforms; not conservative; as, the Liberal Party in England. n.1. a person favoring liberisism. 2. [L-], a member of a liberal political party, especially that of England.
--liberally, adv. --liberalness, n

JUST WHICH OF THESE IDENTIFIES THE LIBERAL SUPPORT OF WARREN JEFFS?

onthestreet said...

1. Original: Ahh, he originated an entire city (YFZ).

2. Giving Freely: Ahh yes, he gave freely an entire city (CC).

3. Ample, abundant: That's it! He has given abundant freedom, honor, and support to the elect of God, all who live sacrifice all and live purely. The sinner shall NOT be rewarded in Zion.

4. Not restricted to literal meanings. See, the Prophet has taught all along that all things have deeper meanings than just the literal. His father Rulon was always referring us to the deeper meanings, the esoteric, and the hidden things of God.

5. Broad minded. Oh yes, the Prophets surround themselves with many broads, those beautiful creatures who are a little broader for the purpose of bearing, but never forgetting that "BROAD is the gate that leadeth to destruction". (Jesus Christ).

6. Favoring reform and progress. What greater reformation than to "not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance". What greater progresws than the casting off of an entire city for a new one.

I'll Be! THEY ALL IDENTIFY THE PROPHET WARREN. Liberal, as quoted from whom? As quoted from his own enemies themselves.

mugwump said...

Yeah Liberal, His way or the highway.

Yeah Liberal, No T.V., magazines, contact with strangers, give more even though you live at the edge of poverty

Yeah Liberal, Remove your children from public school

Yeah Liberal, Use UEF to finance your own Zion

Yeah Liberal, force children to marry old men

Yeah Liberal, Create a dictatorial state under the guise of religion

Yeah Liberal, Confiscate houses of members, which they built at their own expense

Yeah Liberal, conduct ceremonies binding children to old men for life and eternity, against the law of the land

Yeah Liberal, get yourself indicted in fraud, mis-management of money trusted to your care

Yeal Liberal, go on the run to avoid having to face indictment

Yeah Liberal, cross state lines in an effort to hide your presence so you can't be arrested, tried and possibly sent to jail for all the above

Yeah Liberal, having a Bill Clinton mind-set, believing you are above the law

Yeah Liberal, proclaim yourself God's Prophet and live like the devil

onthestreet said...

Yes, he has cleaned the Lord's house. Well put.

Yeah Liberal, Use UEF? You really are green, aren't you? Do you know what the UEF is???? Enlighten us more.

mugwump said...

You reverse yourself so often that it's a wonder you don't run yourself off the road as the result of a rear-end collison

Anonymous said...

Street, Mugwump just got excited and misspelled UEP United Effort Plan. Or maybe he did not miss-typed, maybe he meant the United Effort Funds for Zion ..........

mugwump said...

anon. 1:31

it was a typo. One of several typos I've made. I own up to the mistake. May I be forgiven? UEP -UEF, remember I'm a gentile. I don't possess a glossary of FLDS terminology. To me all it means is that the poor give and the rich demand. Sounds a lot like communism, a seventy year failure.

Anonymous said...

It IS a lot like communism, with a great heaping dose of reverse-Robin Hood thrown in.

onthestreet said...

It is All Things In Common (or commune-ism):

Acts 4:32 The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul.Not one of them claimed that anything of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.

4:33 With great power, the apostles gave their testimony of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Great grace was on them all.

4:34 For neither was there among them any who lacked, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold,

4:35 and laid them at the apostles' feet, and distribution was made to each, according as anyone had need.

4:36 Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas (which is, being interpreted, Son of Encouragement), a Levite, a man of Cyprus by race,

4:37 having a field, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Anonymous said...

wast their diciples taking a cut back? Ney. unlike the 'uncles'

onthestreet said...

The jeoulous also blamed Jesus Himself for wasting resources while Mary poured alot of very expensive ointment onto Jesus'feet. Some of the Uncles wasted alot of resources, and they were dealt with, were they not.

Uncross your eyes, and see, and take up your bed and walk.

mugwump said...

Yes I am well aware of the story as told in Acts. Churches have in large fallen short of their duty. We have delegated our responsability to the State which has developed all types of charitable plans. Plans that help many families who were supposed to be helped by UEP. I don't know if those are the right letters for the acronym, but you get the idea.

polywatchin said...

Faithful Woman,
Jeffs don't like fat people? Does he have any FAT wives?
Maybe he can hide down a storm drain.

polywatchin said...

I meant cuz he's SKINNY he can hide down a drain...

Anonymous said...

If you ever get close enough, you will see that his teeth are in terrible shape. They are crammed, some sideways. When he smiles he doesn't show his teeth.

Anonymous said...

There are no Barlow's left to take over as fundymormon keeps saying. Alvin doesn't have it and Sam couldn't possibly and the others are gone. The younger ones don't want to.

onthestreet said...

The liberal soul shall be made fat, and he's certainly been most liberal to all who love the Lord, not just in word but in deed. Then you have the smile of the Lord upon you, and Uncle Warren's beautiful smile too.

But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called [thee] by thy name; thou [art] mine.

Isa 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I [will be] with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

ATAR_i said...

Are there no dentists/orthodontists in the FLDS?

onthestreet said...

See? (8/27/2005 11:29 PM):

Any teeth that don't look and smell as rediculous as so many anonymous souls crammed all together for the gnashing, have just got to be created somehow in their own image.

He is actually the most handsome man alive today, and People Magazine could well do a cover story on him as "The Sexiest Man In America: 2002 until the Advent, if it weren't sacrilige.

onthestreet said...

That is, if it weren't so sacrilige to use such terminology for someone so good and wholesome. Every such prophet is always maligned by a gross and guilty world. It's part of the PROOF that he is true, good, and wholesome.

"All who live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution". (2 Tim. 3:12)

mugwump said...

whew! what a crock!

ATAR_i said...

I have to say - I do appreciate a nice smile and well brushed teeth. Again - any dental care in CC?

mugwump said...

Any kind of CARE in CC?

amanda said...

Ok, OTS really is off his rocker. If you can look at Warren and think he is a handsome guy, then something is definitely wrong with you. There is not one thing attractive about him. And I thought that BEFORE I knew that he had rotten teeth. BOGUE! I would say that maybe someone could find him handsome on the inside, but how can you find a child molester handsome? Imagine how those poor "wives " feel when he is on top of them, twice or three times their age, and his gangly teeth are looking down at the poor girl?

So sad, so sad.

onthestreet said...

Your mentality, so sick, so sick. You speak only from your own sexual perversions and experiences, not liking the fact that what the media and government call the "most ultra-conservative community in America," are commanded by the Lord and the Prophet to "leave those women alone." Only those who don't are cast out, and all of America with them. You allow your men to rape you in the name of luv and marage, and to kill your children by the millions, and you call that moral, while the FLDS who let the little children come unto Him", you call "immoral".

Isaiah 5:
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

25 Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly.

Amanda said...

HA HA...that was very funny, OTS. You just made me laugh out so loud while I'm sitting in my office at work. Everyone wondered what I was looking at. I can't even take the time to reply to you on that one. You must have missed why they are looking for your "Prophet". YOU allow your men to rape women in the name of marriage. HA HA..Gosh that was a good one. Thank you so much for the laugh. Now I really know from your response you are crazy. And I'M sexually perverted? At least I only date people that are close to my age and not half or a third of it. And I allow them to CHOOSE to date me, rather than have them FORCED by a fake "Prophet".

Thanks for making my week. That was the funniest thing I have read in a long time.

AMEN!!!

onthestreet said...

Your welcome. Now, tell your date to put your clothes back on, and quit being so filthy. The Prophet is charged with Marriage, for marrying people. Mary was 12 when she was betrothed, and 13 when she conceived. Is God a criminal? Then, many other charges stem from that LIE, "and Satan shall deceive the whole world.

Satan - His Infernal MajestySatan has the whole world of unbelievers under his control (Matthew 4:8-10; John 14:30... He is the deceiver of the whole world. (Revelation 12:8) www.new-life.net/satan.htm

mugwump said...

bots

So your take on perfection is: me, my wife, sweetheart, plural wife, prefered wife, first wife, child bride wife, our 2122 children and no more. But on second thought, I'm the only perfect one, therefore only I will stand in perfection. I'm right, you're wrong, the world is wrong, God is wrong, If I didn't proclaim it, it ain't so!

Fellow, you are a pathetic, arrogant, hypocritical excuse for a prophet. Your prophet, your community, your belief system, your role models are all falling apart. Why, because the system is rotten from the inside. You are just a symptom of the larger problem.

onthestreet said...

Sorry, unmarried, and a sinner at that. That's me.

mugwump said...

cast out, shamed, victim of child abuse, incapable of procreation, sent on a "work" mission for wj, considered amoung your priesthood as not being old enough for responsability, insane, require wives of similar personality, never could find a female you could cower, unwilling to work? Why, the very idea, someone with your abilities being passed over to find you a wife. I accept the part about being a sinner. Probably truth from you at last. That's your own admission, not my judgement.

onthestreet said...

There you go. I confess my sins. I am a sinner.

Anonymous said...

not only that but you are emotionally distrubed. Go see a psychiatrist.

ATAR_i said...

Amanda - I think what OTS is intimating is that the women are on top (I'm looking at his posting where he's all disgusted when you talk about wj being on top - looking down with his disgusto teeth).

onthestreet said...

From gross to gross, and dust to dust.

onthestreet said...

This describes you so well.

Anonymous said...

split-personality. Requires two posts so that each personality can offer an opinion.

Anonymous said...

Street, your whole problem is you have god mixed up with satan.
d u think?

onthestreet said...

All the elements are required to form the DAAT, to know God, and how to become like Him.

mugwump said...

So Satan is your God. You finally tell the truth one time! For an eye opening experience watch Jeffs and his worshipers, they are fast becoming just like him, but, they have been so brainwashed they are fast becoming automons on auto pilot. Pay, pay, pay, pay. You still haven't given Jeffs enough $$$$$$$$$for him to have the incentive to raise YOU from the dead. Another ritual adopted from the Masons.

ATAR_i said...

"He is actually the most handsome man alive today, and People Magazine could well do a cover story on him as "The Sexiest Man In America: 2002 until the Advent, if it weren't sacrilige. posted by OTS about warren

OK - that's just plain weird for a guy to say about another guy....unless....(no wonder, he's upset at *any woman* being on top)

Just curious - why 2002? and not 2005 did he do something to mess up that sexy personality? hehehe

onthestreet said...

2002 until the advent, and forever, being after the likeness of the Father and the Son.

mugwump said...

I don't see any similarity, none, nyet, nay, non, nada etc.

Faithful Woman said...

There is one FLDS dentist here in town. Just across the street from the Hildale compound.

It hasn't been there long in comparison to the age of the town. Most people go to surounding communities for their dental work.

onthestreet said...

Still Muggy? So true, you "Don't See." Another fine confession from you. That's the issue, the very thing that you must deal with before you can go any further with the Lord.

mugwump said...

What you don't WANT to see is that God's GRACE is Sufficient. I don't have to try to do good things in order to get HIS attention. Why don't you put on a clown's suit and dance in the street. Your approach to understanding God's GRACE is non existant. You, in all probability will only meet God at the Great White Throne Judgement, or if somehow you remain alive until Jesus return you will be a participant in the sheep/goat judgement. Get ready, your wheels are permanently set to make a left turn.

onthestreet said...

Still Muggy (9/07/2005 9:55 AM):

What you CANNOT see is God's Presence. Yes, His grace reaches down nine-levels. But His presence, you cannot have throughout eternity, for you and the nation have rejected the Prophets, the gatekeepers to His presence. God told Cain: "If ye do GOOD, ye shall be accepted". Then you say, "I don't have to". So where does it put you??? You see, the Great White Throne is His presence. So you are right, "In all probability I will meet God", if I practice what I preach. Now do you see your predicament? I'm sure that others do. We can only lament your soul.

mugwump said...

Nine levels down? How many levels at 90 degrees? Hom many at a 45 degree angle.

You mock God.

mugwump said...

Another typo: I MADE A MISTAKE. Should be: How many at a 45 degree angle.

mugwump said...

Another typo: I MADE A MISTAKE. Should be: How many at a 45 degree angle.

onthestreet said...

God does not walk in crooked paths.

ATAR_i said...

Gods grace reaches to any depth - he has no limits.

mugwump said...

amen

Faithful Woman said...

Do you practice what you preach Street?

onthestreet said...

See? Any depth, the Street Called Straight, not 90 degrees, or 45. That would be veering off on an angle, or crooked. Depth is straight up and down.

Faithful: Working at the practice.

mugwump said...

You dodge giving straight answers to straight questions so well, how can we decern just how level your point of reference is. To get accurate readings the instrument has to be level, plumb and square. How do you measure up? Can you furnish references? Your own are worthless.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, but for you to get accurate readings of the truth, YOUR OWN instrument has to be level, plumb, and square". You blame others for your inabilities to get any accurate readings, being blind and crooked yourself. Why do you base your salvation ON MY readings? You are free to square YOURSELF with these truths, or else you remain crooked and guilty.

"We believe that man will be punished for HIS OWN SINS, and NOT for Adam's transgressions".

onthestreet said...

I keep quoting YOUR OWN BIBLE, and you keep saying" You furnish references? Your own are worthless".

Well, if God is worthless to you, then you are worthless to him, and to all people everywhere.

onthestreet said...

Yes, I add commentary as you do, from what I believe as you do, from my background as you do. We are who we are, and you aren't who you aren't.

mugwump said...

go back to 9:59 and read it again. The purpose is to get a straight answer from a crooked little man.

onthestreet said...

Simple for a child. Crooked for all who walk in crooked paths.

mugwump said...

ots

See my last posting under "Anyone See CNBC with Ross......" Sept. 6 by atar_i

onthestreet said...

No need. Mission Accomplished

mugwump said...

Maybe so, but understanding is far from complete.

onthestreet said...

You won't accomplish it in one lifetime. Just look at the punderika.

mugwump said...

ots

you look at her, I'm married and love my wife.

You want to ask stupid questions and make stupid pronouncements, expect answers to be an equivialent response.

onthestreet said...

In other words, you don't know, being stupid. Sorry.

It is extensive instruction on the concept and usage of expedient means. It is the Lotus.