Tuesday, August 02, 2005

Hildale, Colorado City---Where is your promised Temple?

All you "Saints" have given vast sums of money, houses you built at your own expense, repeatedly have given sacrificicaly in many efforts to obtain a higher level of priesthood and other works at the command of our various prophets. What do you have to show for your works?

You were promised years ago that a temple would be built on a hill just at the edge of Centenial Park. You have given your innocent daughters to the disposal of your prophet who's sole aim is to have you, and his lieutenants, under absolute control. Your sons have been disposed of as offal. Who has done these heinous crimes to you and your family. I don't have to answer the question, you KNOW the answer. Each succeding Prophet has done what was necessary, not to come to your aid, but to solidify his own position. Now only have you given your support, through your actions, praised as good works, many times have ended in disaster.

Now, after efforts made by your great-grandparents, grand-parents, parents, and now yourself have been betrayed. Your much desired temple is being built! I see it nearly every day. It's spire and facade are dominant on the landsape of the YFZ Ranch. This ranch is located about four miles north of Eldorado, Schleicher County, Texas. This Temple is in the final stages of construction. It has spiral staircases on each of the four corners. There is a basement and what appear to be three stories above the basement. It is being faced with Schleicher County native limestone.

The chief problem, as I, and many others see it is that you accept anything your prophet says as being a directive from God. Read your own recorded history and compare the workings of your prophets, to consolidate and firm up personal power, to the prophets of the Old Testement, including John the Baptist. Were the declarations of those prophets, from biblical history, self serving? I think that you will find that their prupose was to lead a sinful people into a better understanding of God's purpose for their lives. The judgements were largely directed toward the authoritarian kings and princes of Israel and Judah.

Nowhere do I find a prophet demanding money from the ordinary people. Tithing is encouraged, rather demanded of God in the law given to Moses. Israel's Kings were the ones who demanded money and obtained through murder, lies told to the people making them believe that they were hearing God's voice. Remember Elisha gave instruction to Naaman for his healing. When offered a fee for his service, Elisha declined. Elisha's servant, in his own self interest, sought to obtain money from Naaman in the prophet's name. He was cursed to live out his life with leprosy!

THE GREATEST BLESSING YOU, AS INDIVIDUALS, LIVING IN A SOCIETY OF UNCERTAIN IS TO BEGIN TO THINK FOR YOURSELF. God provided everyone with a mind. Use yours to learn how you are being duped and manulipiated by a despotic leader who ursurped the position to which you are now enslaved. LEARN TO THINK FOR YOURSELF.


Anonymous said...

Goodness Gracious!

Who got you all stirred up?

mugwump said...

The reality of a locked compound within four miles of my home.

The reputation of Warren Jeff's duplicity.

The books I have read.

The T.V. exposure of a polygamist's lifestyle and how the family suffers.

My love of liberty and justice, for all people.

The newspaper accounts of the behind-the-scenes and duplicity of those individuals who act as "front-men" for the FLDS prophet.

Someone needs to sound the alarm, why not me?

As those of you know who occasionally read my posts, I am no friend to despotic cowards and frauds.

Aren't these reasons enough?

fttc said...

In the long past our people have gotten a bad rap with the press. Anything to do with polygamy was sensational to enough people that it sold papers and captivated TV audiences. Most of what was reported was false and blown out of proportion for this reason.

Today polygamy is still sensational because it is different from the lifestyle most Americans live. Our people have been a peaceful group minding their own business, looked upon as peculiar but mostly decent. It is shameful that the press does not have to fabricate stories to attract attention now.

There are some elements of falsehood in the press stories but mostly they are true. This is just the opposite to what we experienced 10-20 years ago and back. I guess this is another example of things warren has stood on their head. He is the anti-thesis of the former leaders of our people.

Anonymous said...

if you all would like to see what happens wehn you stand up to warrens goons. then go to this web site and look it is
www.sharpendproductions.com/video.html i think you all would like it.

mugwump said...


Thank you for your candid reply. As all who read my posts know, I don't hold anything in common with Mormonism I will say this in your defense. I visited Salt Lake City in the mid-fifties and was impressed with the fervor expressed by the temple attendant who gave us a tour of the tabernaccle and a speil in behalf of your religeon. I wish that those of my faith were willing to have the singlenes of purpose in an effort to evangelize.

I couldn't buy Mormonism then and can't buy it now.

I've expressed my reasons at length in previous posts so I won't go into them now.

In the mid 70's I went with my brother and sister-in-law to visit the temple in St. George. I'll admit that we drove from St. George through Hildale & Colorado City on our way to the North rim of the Grand Canyon and I did not realize that those were polygamist communities.

While at the temple in St. George I was again impressed with the dedication of your guide in her effort to pursuade me to consider Mormonism. Having been reared in a community of my faith through God's grace, it was then, and still is one of the greatest disagreements I have with your faith. That, and the idea that man could ever become God, or why he'd even want to be. To me this represents idolatry. Worship of self.

As I drove through the countryside, visited Arches NP, Bryce Canyon NP and once again, Zion NP, I witnessed the stewardship of the land and the care given in your towns and cities to cleanliness. I appreciate your industry. My question is this: is stewardship of the land and cleanliness of a city an attempt to impress God, or by the efforts of a man who is working his way to becoming god himself? I'm impressed with the first, but insulted by the latter.

As for Jeffs being the anti-thesis of your leaders, my reading of histories published by non-biased writers would lead me to believe otherwise. According to records they too desired "one man rule" but, couldn't get consent of the council of elders to do so. WJ gained his foothold by refusing to replace elders as they died. During his father's time, he gained the position of councilor and grabbed power during Rulon's state of senility. The way your self-appointed leaders have repeatedly squandered the UEF funds, they should all have been investigated and indicted for fraud.

I don't see evidence of even one righteous man, not even one. Sodom was destroyed because of that one fact.

fttc said...

I assure you the enthusiasm you experienced among the LDS was based on a sincere belief in what they wanted you to consider. If you go back to the fundamentals of mormonism you will find that we do our labors with the intention of pleasing God. Too often the human weakness factor enters in and the effort is turned toward pleasing some man.

I question the intentions of your "unbiased" historians. You have quoted sources in the past as to the character of Joseph Smith that would have to be as biased as they could be. I think if you would be willing to read B.H. Roberts footnotes and introduction to the History of the Church you would get some balance with your information. He makes a very effective rebuttal to many of the anti-mormon writers from the early history of mormonism. Notice I said anti-mormon not non-mormon. There is a difference.

I still hold that you cannot find documented proof of misuse of UEP Funds by the "one man" prior to 1980. At that time our group started into what we are witnessing today. I can see your point of view and some of how you arrive at it. The problem is you don't know all the truth. Even Ben Bistline has an agenda in his history. Some of the 'facts' he has put in his book he only has through hearsay. I was personally involved in some of the affairs he notes and he is just wrong.

I respect your right to believe as you wish. It does seem that you have the idea that you are right and all others are wrong. This exists in any religion to a lesser or greater degree. I only mention it to point out how refreshing it is to have someone admit their understanding is not perfect. I think this is a requirement for anyone who wishes to improve their understanding.

Anonymous said...

What difference does it make to you how other Americans choose to worship, or how they spend their money? And since when does what the press says make something true? Why dont you mind you own business, and let them live according to their American rights? None of them agree with the way you believe, but you don't see them trying to force you to change.

Dont you understand that if the government can take away those people's constitutional rights, it can take away yours, too? You are just hanging your own self by demanding something be done to get rid of those people. And since when is it wrong to lock your property? If they didnt lock it, there would be constant trespassing by the press, and by others, too. Let's see you leave your place unlocked.

Let me challenge you here. Do you personally know even one individual currently in good standing with the FLDS? If not, then all you say or hear is one-sided, and not fair at all. We all know there are two sides to every story. Why don't you try to make friends with, and understand at least one person in the FLDS religion, (after all, they ARE your neighbors) and then make a judgement call.

What do you have to say for yourself, Mugwup?

Anonymous said...


mugwump said...

I say my purpose for this thread has been achieved.

Maybe ya'all (a little Texan here) are beginning to think independently just a little bit.

It's not my concern as to your object of worship. You can worship a block of wood or a block of stone, it's none of my business.

When proponents of your faith move into my community under false pretences it then does become my concern. Hunting lodge!!! That spire and those battlements at each corner of the "temple" sure do look like a hunting lodge to me. I guess the steel enforced footing being poured around the perimeter of that abomination is going to support a dam to hold water for a duck hunt in "the moat." That place has to be a hunting club, right? If it were a place for public worship then it would qualify for tax exemption wouldn't it? Since nobody but one of the "in" crowd may enter I guess it's a private club.

I strongly suspect that the only "game" avilable will be under-age girls who are being forced to take a man old enough to be their great-grandfather as husband......whew!!!

Get real.

Anonymous said...

anon 101
you got the web address wrong.it is http://www.sharpendproductions.com/video1.html

Anonymous said...

anonymous 9:29 - what's on the video? I'm not able to play it.

Anonymous said...

Make friends with our neighbors.
Excuse me.

Our good standing FLDS neighbors at the YFZ do not want to be friends of Eldorado. They are probably told to pray every night that evil community 4 miles south will meet with some great disaster!The prophet would cheer!

Do you know of one in good standing with the FLDS?

Mugwup stand near PO Box 715 and wait until one comes to get their mail and ask them if you can get to know the real FLDS? Ask if you can converse with them at the ranch or invite them to you home because you want to know their side of the story!

Or Mugwup go to the propane company inside the town of Eldorado and wait at the pumps and introduce yourself one of the clean cut young men with long sleeves and baseball caps filling up the white dump truck or one of their diesel tanks. Or hang out at the lumber yards in San Angelo and/or locally.

If you are in good standing with the FLDS you don't talk to outsiders. You might get the boot!

Ask Ernest Jessop and Allan Steed.

Hey, Mr. Dogooder Anonymous do you know any good standing FLDS?

Maybe you do? Maybe you are the
one doing business with them and having to justify making so much money off them.

Money talks and makes strange bedfellows and don't think for a minute they are your friends. Their only friends are other good standing FLDS folks.

Eldorado folks are just poop under their boots.

Anonymous said...

hay anonymos at 9:36 when you get to that web address then right above quick time player you well find were you can open. you need to install quick time 7 to get it to work ok.

Anonymous said...

The greatest thing we can do is to not listen to your contaminated filth, that we do not think for our-selfs. Who do you think you are, claiming to know what we think. Jump in the lake. And swim a spell.

fttc said...


One thing is certain. You put some interest back into the blog! Congratulations for that!

I don't always agree with you. You seldom agree with me too. The dialogue is great. You have sparked some nonys who have been silent too long.

If you supporters of warren don't like the negative perspective being given of you then correct the rest of us. Give Mugwump an answer as to why he was lied to about what the YFZ was in the first place. Explain how it is OK to hop from one husband to another without the one being left even knowing what he did wrong. Explain why it is OK to break a law regarding the marriage age when your former prophet declared you would obey that law. Give us the "other side" of the story.

Anonymous said...

For starters I'm not a suporter of warren ok? But that doesn't mean that what flora and her ilk have to say is always true. Anyone who really knows them, knows that their story started out as a distortion and only gets better and better, more juicy with time. Practice makes perfect. They get to know what people want to hear. It gets on them like a disease.

Those who want to prosecute for some crime they think might have been committed should make their case. And it should be made from real evidence, and should start with a real complaint. It should also not be for ex-post facto laws, or for things that just go against the present public opinion.

If Law enforcement has to break the law in order to enforce it, what kind of bullschlitz is that?

The truth is that some of these laws are what should really go on trial first. But that is a whole other matter.

Fredonia Friend said...

Anonymous 4:14

Please tell us specifically what Flora and others have alleged that isn't true. Please also tell us how you know these allegations are not true. Also, are you the same "Anonymous" that posted the 8:19 comment?

fttc said...

I have come from the FLDS. I know of the corruption that is going on there. I know Flora etc. have grown to love the spotlight on themselves and this is much of their motivation. There have been those in the press who like nothing more than to be able to write negative stories about our people. I do not use what Flora says or the press when I say that warren is evil and needs to be dealt with.

I have firsthand experience with his tactics of propaganda. When warren first began to speak from the pulpit in meetings and prepare the people for what he has now done I picked up on his strategy of deceit. In his discourses he would present his new docrine at the beginning of his talk, then when the people had a chance to get settled he would refute it with the truth. Now this did two things; first those who wanted the 'new' doctrine got it, second those who knew better could not say he was teaching a complete lie. Once he had a few who believed the lies he built them up to be the examples to everyone. Then he began to use this influence to weed out those who would not accept his new doctrine. He has ended up with a following that is largely brainwashed. They can see nothing wrong with lying to the public. There is nothing wrong with having a new father every few months. There is nothing wrong with taking girls who are too young to be married to wife. All good and evil is determined by what this man dictates.

Now anyone has the right in America to believe the way they want to as long as it does not infringe on others. When a society starts to produce juvenile dilinquents on the level that warren has I think that society has infringed on others. These boys, and some girls, are not all just rebellious teenagers. Quite a few just couldn't make sense of life under warren. They didn't fit warren's mold so he rejected them. It was easier to cast them off than try to explain the lies. Many of them just needed an understanding parent to guide them. When the parents tried to do their job warren threatened the parent with expulsion. Many of the parents cowered to warren and cast the children off.

You speak of law enforcement breaking the law. I don't see it except in the case of the CC police. The AGs have only enforced the law that the legislature has passed. If these laws are illegal let warren answer to them and have them taken from the books through the judicial process. If he and his people have done nothing wrong let them appeal to the public. Set before them how you have not trampled on their rights with impunity. Help them understand. Don't go about hiding and thumbing your noses at them. Use the spotlight to your advantage just as Flora and etc. have done. This is the course Joseph Smith followed. He did not hide his beliefs and cry foul. He got up petitions, he appealed to the leaders. Follow his example.

Paladin for Truth said...

Why does Warren need a temple anyway? If he believes in John Taylor and the 1886 Revelation and if he truly had received authority through the line of men that followed John Taylor, he would know that John Taylor set apart a special dispensation to perform marriages, sealings and endowments, outside of the temple. He would know that these old leaders taught Patriartical Marriage, which involves the fathers in getting their girls married. He would know that marriages performed by these early leaders could not simply be undone for frivolous reasons. The early leaders set apart by John Taylor knew this and performed their work. Warren only admits he has no authority by building a temple thinking he can get some authority from some fallen god (Lucifer). It is pretty plain that Warren has nothing, for if he did, he would act like those who had something. The early leaders knew they had what they had, they performed their work simply and plainly. They were easy to find for all those who wanted to come hear. They did not need to build large spacious buildings to try to convice the people of what they held. Perhaps it really is time to study the early roots of the beginning of what is called fundamentalism.

mugwump said...

anonymous and all oher posters:

Keep addressing your problems. We, outside your closed community want to know why you choose to follow a leader, under warrant for arrest.
Many of us are very concerned. Although denied by your leadership, we still fear the abduction of our children into your lifestyle. Since the whole YFZ began the public, not only Eldorado but surrounding towns do not feel that your leadership is mentally or morally stable. I detest liars. Tell me the truth and I promise I will adjust to the problem. I may not like it. I may criticize my perception of what seems to be happening.

Mormon neighbors, you have nothing to fear from us as long as your activity stays within the laws of Texas and the United States of America. We honor your dedication to your preconceived duty and you obvious industry.

My hope and prayer is for each one under subjugation and the absolute monarchial Warren Jeffs, finally take an interest in becoming the best person you, with your concience as your guide, can become.

We wish you long life and the joy assoiated with freedom of choice.

mugwump said...

From accounts I have read, in multiple books, by many authors law enforcement in FLDS communities has been outside the laws of the state of Utah and Arizona. Crimes, or presumed crimes committed in those states belong in the state of origin. Instead law enforcement has been assumed by a nominal deputy sheriff, Sam Barlow and associates, who harrass juvaniles without their parents being advised. That is against the law in Texas.

Barlow et.al have been identified numerous times as "tattling" on suspected "church related" crimes which ane not under Barlow's jurisdiction. His "tattling" has been done to the attention of the Prophet who then, without benefit of a hearing, calling witnesses, allowing for cross examination and/or formal charges made imposes his "will" as being law. There is no justice here. Those charged and excommunicated and robbed of family and home are under the umbrella of protection by State and Federal law. Contrary to what is being told you, the judicial system of the US is generally pretty fair. Yes, there are exceptions to the previous statement. The one thing that those who are charged don't realize is that the whole issue being determined by the court is based upon pleas entered into the court record prior to the trial. By law the court can only consider the merits of the case based upon evidence presented supporting the plea. If you come to trial make absolutely sure that the "plea" is couched in terms that protect your innocence and your rights as a citizen.

It's tough, it is generally fair, and FLDS people and their activities are first reviewed by laws of the state and nation.

No law enforcement officer will enter your compound without permission of your leadership or, if their entery is without permission it (the entry) ordered by "Warrant" issued by a Judge.

If an alledged crime committed in one of those states is "joined" by the U.S. Attorney General's office then those arrested may be tried in federal court. Laws related to transporting minors across state lines is considered kidnapping, a federal offense.

As long as the citizens living at YFZ live in accordance with the rule of law in Texas they will no be placed under arrest. Warrant for "Probible Cause" is worthy of investigation.

Anonymous said...

No on the 8:19 But I'll give you little clue on Flora. Just watch her lips and see if they move. If her lips are moving she is lying about something. Everything she says is a spin of some kind or other.

Anonymous said...

You mean we're still arguing about whether or not Flora is an honest person? Get real! Flora has a complete disability to tell the truth without the slightest bit of perversion. No, I'm not FLDS, no I'm not a polygamist, yes, I know Flora is a liar.

mugwump said...

Lying through the teeth seems to be a requirement of leadeship in the FLDS. They are afraid of he truth. Truth sets people free and that doesn't fit into their plan of total control of all adherents to their doctrine.

When you people learn that your leaders and their spokesmen are liars, without reservation, then you will be astonished at just what is possible for you!!!!

The lies are an expeditious method of achieving a particular goal within a particular time frame. This, my friends, is why diplomacy is such a farce. Ambassadors feel no compunction to tell the truth, unless it is beneficial to themselves and/or whomsoever they represent. Nevertheless, a lie is a lie. People who make a practice of telling the truth, in spite of initial consequences, generally in the long term, fair much better than do habitual liars. A lie is a cancer that eats away at one's self respect and the respect others hold for the individual, sect, cartel, group, state, or cult.

Eddie said...


Land said...

why are you arguing over the honesty of one person?

Land said...

I am sad for these people. How do you not see how unhealthy this is?

Anonymous said...

Yeah Mug, we know the theory of how Law Enforcement is supposed to work. But it's obvious you've never been on the receiving end of predjudice.

The reason you don't SEE them breaking the law is becuase they are pretty damn good at hiding that, and covering it up.

Anonymous said...


When you bought your land, did you have to say what it was going to be used for? I have never had to disclose what the land I bought was going to be used for. Of course it is zoned for certain use, but I didn't have to say EXACTLY what I was planning for it. I put in permits for the bulidings, etc., but not when I acutally purchased it. Is the law different in Texas than it is in Utah? Did they actually break a law by saying that they were making a hunting retreat? What if they just changed their mind on what they were going to do? .....Just curious.

onthestreet said...


onthestreet said...

By the Way. The very purpose of the FLDS Church is to hunt and to save souls, as "fishers of men." See, your Redeems originate the hunting of souls idea. Doesn't matter if that is not YOUR belief. It's ours. Now, if the FLDS Church said that the YFZ Ranch is a hunting lodge, nothing is more TRUE: For the hunting and saving of our souls. Case Closed.

onthestreet said...

Second Line should be "Redeemer". Somebody tell me how to edit our posts. See how smart I am?

Anonymous said...

Did anyone see the "Two Fawns" on the Dr. Phil show this week?

ATAR_i said...

I'd say not very GOOD hunters, as hunters go - they would appear to be hunting in a zoo with tamed animals.

Hunting: the act of seeking, following, and killing WILD animals for consumption or display.

I'd say they got the consumption and display part down pretty good though - so perhaps they slay tame caged and oftentimes young game because they like the taste of the flesh - not so "gamy".

Also - didn't they say they "weren't" building a hunting retreat - so they really "aren't" hunting souls - and they really "don't" think like you.

mugwump said...


All the young game seems to be domesticated, and trained to high persormance as are animals in a circus.

YFZ officials, when asked what "those huge buildings" were replied that it was to be a hunting retreat.

Reminds me of a certian presidential aspirant who voted for the war before he voted against it. Waffling, those of us here in Schleicher County understood his stance. It was very nearly the same as those building at YFZ. If you try to stand astraddle the fence, you are sure to develop sore privates. And it's hard to get any "business done" with sore privates.

My grandmother told us "if you tell a lie, beter be prepared to tell another in order to back the first one up." I'd say that those FLDS folks have mastered the technique.

Anonymous said...

Hi, Streetie,

Come back to play. Just could not stay away, thought you would stay "north of Alaska."

You are such a big doofus and a BIG STORY TELLER (LIER). I guess you have been in the gentile world too long, learned all that street slang (cuss words) and you have become JADED.

I am curious, too and also a good looking knockout!

PS- Streetie wrote "By the Way. The very purpose of the FLDS Church is to hunt and to save souls, as "fishers of men." (LIE)

(TRUTH) "By the Way. The very purpose of the Warrenite FLDS Church is to hunt down souls and drown them, if they don't goose step to the prophet."


Anonymous said...

And ain't you a lier...

Anonymous said...

Add to 11:29

Sing "Horst Wessel" and do the Warren salute zum der "Deutchland Uber Alles"

Anonymous said...

et mon droit
En union y liberated
Quaerite primum renum dei
Finis coronat opus
et mon driot
I love you, Lord.

onthestreet said...

Both stances are true, just as Christ was at his wedding in Caina, and yet told the Pharisee: "In heaven, there is neither marriage nor giving in marriage.

To us, it is a hunting lodge.
To you , it is only a manger, or less. And to God it is a footstool.

onthestreet said...

The Prophet is hunting OUR souls, as a fisher of men. Therefore to us it is a hunting lodge.

For you, he is hunting nothing. Therefore to you, it is NOT a hunting lodge.

So they told you a truth, then they told you another truth.

ATAR_i said...

warren and his friends said it's NOT a hunting lodge.

You say it is.

I don't think YOU are a friend of warren.

Anonymous said...

atar_i said....warren and his friends said it's NOT a hunting lodge. You say it is. I don't think YOU are a friend of warren.

Hey, Atar_i has you on that one!

Street said: Christ said ".....yet told the Pharisee: "In heaven, there is neither marriage nor giving in marriage."



ATAR_i said...

virtual treat given to street.

But, you wrote that

"Christ was at his wedding in Caina"

He was at A wedding NOT his wedding

mugwump said...

According to The Gospel of John, Jesus went to Cana, in Galilee to attend a wedding with his mother and diciples. Nowhere does this or any other of the gospels is there any inference that Jesus was attending His own marriage. There is no referance to the "Bride of Crist" except as referal to Christ's church. The "bride" is at the marriage feast of the Lamb and awaits the arrival of the "LAMB" Bridegroom (Jesus Christ himself). This event occurs in heaven after the church has been removed from the world.

Check: Revelation 19:7-9

To suppose any other "marriage" is blasphemy

mugwump said...

Regarding "Hunting Retreat" I must note here that when asked by local Schleicher County) law enforcement and tax assessor as to the purpose of the first three buildings, representatives of YFZ replied that the ranch was to become a hunting retreat. It was only a bit later, when as construction continued, that YFZ officials, faced with overwhelming evidence of their falsehood that they admitted anything else.

A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie etc. ad nauseaum.

These guys only follow the example of their great guru, the man of infinate wisdom, the grand poo-bah, wizard, warlock, son of perdition, Warren Jeffs.

Anonymous said...

So? Did YOU have to disclose what you were building on YOUR property? Who cares what they are building? They mind their business, why don't you mind yours? Is your life so boring, and your life so perfectly in order that you are forced to mind other people's business? Wow, I am sure glad I don't have you for a neighbor.

You know what? I live two doors down from some ex-Texans, and they have the most perfect manners. I had hoped all Texans were like that, but maybe you are not a native Texan, huh?

Anonymous said...

Most Texan's are very mannered. I think the ones that talk to Flora and get on a kick in persicution are un-mannerly, but most Texans are perfect gentlemen. And it seems that they put fences around there place too. And walk the fence line of others, but you could not say that, that was most Texans. And it seems to me that, those that get there opinions from this and other web pages, are very hard up for truth.

ATAR_i said...

I don't think that talking to Flora makes your manners magically vanish.

I don't believe that gaining information from the internet from various sites is a recipe for become a oaf.

I think people behave very differently when they speak anonymously. It is easier for me to be condescending and rude on this blog (especially when OTS gets in one of his moods).

I think I become brusque on occassions, and perhaps do not listen as well as I could when I am not personally interacting with the individual I am speaking to.

I cannot justify this behavior - other than to say - it's a shortcoming of my constitution.

I do not however manifest myself in a surly manner in public, I tend to be courteous and gracious - but something in the anonymity makes the gruff snappy responses easy (and sinfully fun to write).

However, that appears to be something I share with posters both FLDS and NOT - so I don't think either side of this debate can claim a more mannerly demeanor on this blog.

Anonymous said...

There is no FLDS on this blog. They would not stoop to arguing with you. If they did they would not be flds. There may be ex-flds. or those who think to repent of there evils, but a true flds would not be on this blogg......

fttc said...

So what are you? I don't believe you for a moment that there are not true, blue FLDS on this blog. Warren is aware of what goes here. If he is not personally looking he is being kept up to date. And not by one who he has told to go away and repent. You speak as if the true FLDS are too holy to communicate with us mere mortals.

Anonymous said...

fttc....There are Warrenites.

Don't ask me how I know, I just do.

Anonymous said...

fttc said...You speak as if the true FLDS are too holy to communicate with us mere mortals.

I guess that leaves Streetie out of the picture.


ATAR_i said...

I once felt superior in knowledge, purity, devotion to my church and my God.

I realized the arrogance of that attitude, but even moreso, that it was only a figment of my overinflated ego because my spiritual health was seriously hindered BY that exact attitude.

God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

While I have strength of conviction (thus I like to think I'm right - which isn't alway the case), I don't feel superior. I know, that but for different set of circumstances - that could be me.

onthestreet said...

Hey, watch who you're impersonating

Anonymous said...

It is no one elses business what I choose to build on my property but, if I tell my neighbors that I am building a house when I am really building a barn, that is a lie.

fttc said...

And depending on what you put in the barn, it may become the neighbors business!

If you plan on bringing a lot of animals to where the noise and the smell become a neighborhood nuisance, you may find out it would have made more financial sense to tell the neighbors the truth in the first place.

Anonymous said...

Kind of like, where do we put the outlet to the sewer treatment plant now?

ATAR_i said...

If your property - is access through an easement - they might have ALOT TO SAY. And, usually if you are building something - you have to supply building codes.

Wether they legally they were complelled to tell the truth I can't say - neither can you unless you've seen all the paperwork. But wether they did or they didn't point is THEY DID.

Some people, usually Antisocial Personality Disorder, lie, not because they have to - but just because it's second nature.

Perhaps warren is a touch on the sociopathic side. I kinda think that might be the case - it's just second nature to lie - why wouldn't he.

Funny thing is how you all defend it. warren is still hiding under his rock - let him come out and defend his own lies.

mugwump said...

Buiding codes are pretty lax in West Texas. The state is VERY interested in any type of construction as in regard to pollution and sanitation. The state is also very interested in the quality of the air that is being discharged by cement plants, chemical plants, refineries etc.

There are state laws determining placement of buildings. These buildings must be constructed upon a rise of land that has been, by survey, proven to be higher in elevation than the 100 year "flood plain."

Feed lots for fattening cattle, sheep, or hogs have to meet ridgid environmental standards. Dairys must also meet these standards. The purpose of these laws is not to oppress the landowner but to protect the public.

We, in West Texas, like most people who live in extremely arid country, tend to think that some of the rules and regulations are a bit high handed. As we become more educated as to the reasons behind the environmental law, we tend to accept those laws and attempt to understand the "why."

A huge influx of people into an area tends to cause questions "if we have to obey these laws, why don't they?" This is a legitimate question. What is a huge influx of people? It depends upon growth patterns over the past forty years or so. Historically, more than 75 people would be determined as "huge."

The City of Eldorado has spent millions of our own and grant "tax" dollars in an effort to get the city's sewer plant in compliance with state law. The original design for the plant was submitted to state authorities for review and authorization. A permit, based upon those plans, was issued. Since that time, the city has not entered a single summer season without having been cited for not being in compliance with the quality of water being discharged into the evaporation ponds attached to the sewer plant. This water quality is dependent upon the development of algae, a natural occurance in any pond of water. Again, I emphasize, the plant was built to state specs.

YFZ began their building project in March 2004. The week-to-week progress of that project has been recorded in the "Eldorado Success." The "Success" is not a paper given to sensational reporting. The "Success" has been a home town paper that through the years, kept the local public informed about just what is going on within our community.

If any of you question my facts, and I am proven wrong, I sincerely apologize. To get the truth of the matter you may go to "myeldorado.net", click on "news" and read a week-by-week report of the activities associated with YFZ.

Meanwhile, YFZ has been sited by Texas Conservation and Environmental Quality authority for violations related to disposal of sewage, air quality related to the operation of an unlicensed cement plant, and beginning the construction of a sewer plant without obtaining a state approved permit. (Learn from the experiences of your neighbors.) They are considerably more knowledgable about Texas codes than is your prophet. I know he may claim to know all, hear all, see all, but, that is just his way of controlling FLDS. He has no more capability of seeing what is to occur in the next minute than either you or I. Quit being "stupid" just because Jeffs demonstrates that capability, Summa Cum Laude.

uncle joe said...

I have to say this is the most interesting blog that I have visited. Keep up the good work.

fttc said...

Hi uncle joe!

If you find it interesting put in your two cents worth!

onthestreet said...

No penny-annies here. If he is the true-Joe, he has treasures to offer for whom he will, or not at all.

Anonymous said...

Uncle Joe! Not the Uncle Joe that we all knew was firm in the faith. NOt the Uncle Joe that preached and prayed his heart out, the guy with a large family that totally turned their backs on their father because some weasel was proclaimed by his young hormone crazed mothers and one shady brother? Not the guy who gave us patriarchal blessings by the hundreds? Not that Uncle Joe. He is dead don't you know.

Anonymous said...

What?! Did Uncle Joe die? I looked at the profile when I first say "Uncle Joe", and it listed him as 45 years old, so I knew it was someone else. If Uncle Joe died, when? Why was no one told? I knew Uncle Louis died, but not Uncle Joe.

Anonymous said...

6:13 PM Go look up rude in the dictionary. You'll find your picture there.

onthestreet said...

"WHO IS THY FATHER, AND THY MOTHER," says the Lord, or "thy Mother and thy brother."

rumor-has-it said...

Don't forget that even though people do things that we thing are "wrong" to us, maybe right to them. And they still need love and hope to go on (more now I think) Maybe you could call Uncle Joe and tell him that you care.

rumor-has-it said...

OTS - Your father and mother are those that physically made you. In the FLDS religion, it may be a little confusing...but that is the way I see it.

Honor thy Father and Thy Mother that thy days may be long up on the earth.

onthestreet said...

Perfect, He who made you, made without hands, being swallowed up in him. That is you Father, and the Mother is also swallowed up in him.

onthestreet said...

Don't forget that the Theology of Heaven is a system of ADOPTION.

mugwump said...

Uncle "Joe"

I appreciate your reasoning for keeping the argument and insights going. On the street has become a "weed" in this garden of exploration. He has no thoughts only reflections of his other self. If you think this discussion needs to continue, I appreciate your input

onthestreet said...

Reality is the True Self. All else are reflections and illusions. There is only one True Self.

ATAR_i said...

Sounds like New Age to me.

onthestreet said...

Yes, we are approaching a new age.

mugwump said...

OTS is an age of his own. and, he's the only person in the solar system or any other solar system he believes himself able to construct.

onthestreet said...

Are we being constructive?

ATAR_i said...

New age philosophy - it's actually a religion - and you sound like your in it. Use your computer - find out about it yourself - you sound like you belong there. It's really up your alley - "find your own truth" sort of thing. Which is exactly what you do. Make up your own theology - make your own way - find your own truth (course it's a lie - but whatever).

Anonymous said...

Straight shot to OntheStreet - heaven is sysem of ADOPTION.

You take a bit here, and a peice there, and then you swallow a whole camel -- but its not right to drop this tidbit of info and then leave people guessing.

The system of "Adoption" into the "family of the priesthood" is as old as Joseph Smiths first teachings and you're thinking you are being all cryptic using your garbled version of that quote from Christ about -- "who is your Mother - your father?"

I know the answer you want to hear is of course - Your brethren and sisters in the "Priesthood" - but in this case many of us know what you are REALLY talking about.

You have an elitist theology taught by a man with a twisted, demon, brain.
How many men/boys have been "directed" to change their last names to Jeffs in the last 5 years? How many children, women have lost their roots and identity to this so-called "sacred adoption?"

You know the numbers -- but do you have any idea how truly devastating and destructive this is to actual living, breathing, human beings caught in this evil web?
If you don't - you will.
May God save us all.

onthestreet said...

Yah, muggy, tarry's a tokin to yu

onthestreet said...

And as for you, ""straight shot,"" the Street called Straight would suit you better, if you could ever find it.

ELITE: What you call the elitist theology taught by a man comes from your Redeemer Himself: "FEW THERE BE. . Sounds very elitist, from Jesus Christ Himself.

Furthermore, he calls those WHO OBEY IN ALL THINGS, and WHO SACRIFICE ALL THINGS, "My Royal Priesthood." Ahh, very elitist from Jesus Christ Himself.

ADOPTION: Finally, you say: "How many men/boys have been "directed" to change their last names to Jeffs in the last 5 years? How many children, women have lost their roots and identity to this so-called "sacred adoption?"

'Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of the heavenly Father.' (Mt. 7:21)

"I bring not peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34). His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into His own family by bringing us to Himself through Jesus Christ.

Paul refers to the Old Testament idea of Israel's special position as the children of God—"Theirs is the adoption as sons" (Rom. 9:4).

The believer's adoption as a child of God was determined by God from eternity: God "predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ" (Eph. 1:5).

The present reality of the believer's adoption into the family of God is release from the slavery of sin and the law and a new position as a free heir of God. Entering into salvation brings the rights and privileges of free sonship: "For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, 'Abba, Father'" (Ro 8:15).

Paul tells the Galatians that Christians were redeemed from the law so that they might receive adoption as sons. As a result the Holy Spirit comes into the believer's heart crying, "Abba, Father" (Gal 4:5).

The intimacy of a relationship with God the Father in contrast to the ownership of slavery is a remarkable feature of salvation.

ATAR_i said...

I was talking to you OTS - and your streetology.

fttc said...

Street has just given us a perfect example of what the FLDS memebership has been subjected to in the teachings of warren. Those from within I think will know what I mean.

Those on the outside who are interested can go the Bible and look up street's references. He takes a few words out of the text, inserts his own words, and then puts the entire mix in quotes with a reference to make it look authentic. That together with the teaching that you cannot have a grain of doubt about the 'prophet' is what has led so many people off the true path. They either did not dare to look up the references for fear they would be doubting or they were simply too lazy to do so out of apathy.

mugwump said...


You, being a mormon would know about ots taking scripture out of context and inserting his own words to make the scripture say just what ots wants it to say. I challenge you, or amy mormon to take those same scriptures and compare the translation of joe S's version of the King James and the same (supposedly) King James from any non mormon publishing company.

It appears that ots is just following joe s's example of making the WORD fit, custom made, into teachings to undergird his man-made gospel.

I've made this challenge many times, on this blog but, as yet, have had no takers. Fear? God is love. wj seems to be damnation and banishment. Not much of Jesus in his diatribe.

When Jesus spoke admonitions it was usually to the priests, scribes and Pharisees. HE demonstrated Heavenly, God like love to those who didn't claim to be in total obedience to Moses' law.

Jesus spoke in Arameic, the New Testament was largly written in Greek. King James was written in Elizabethian English, When JS supposedly received his revelation he translated it into Elizabethian English. Why? He was on the leading edge of the Victorian era. Why didn't one of his trusted lieutenants translate mormon into a more modern language. Contrary what some would argue, Jesus didn't speak English. I believe that had He the opportunity to speak to someone who only spoke modern English that Jesus' conversation would be in the same venacular.

I'm not anti-KJV. I've memorized long passages from that translation. I grew to an adult only having that translation available. I do, however, believe that there are some excellent modern versions eg. NIV, NASB, Holman, Phillips and many others. God's truth is not diminished by translating it into a more understandable translation. KJV was printed between 1607 and 1612 AD.

fttc said...


This is an arguement of faith. If I read you right you do not believe in modern revelation to men. I do. Joseph Smith's teachings square with all the Prophets who have gone before him. His doctrines were proven by the original KJV before he set out to retranslate it. This blog is hardly the place to get into a debate of this stature.

If you are interested there have been printed many rebuttals to the various ministers in the early days of the LDS church which make my points. I am not a bible scholar but I have read the entire bible several times. I don't follow your criticism of the language. For one thing if you read the truth about the work Joseph did with the bible he called it a retranslation. He did not set out to make a complete new translation. He actually only changed a small part of the book.

I think you are looking for anything that you can throw in the face of mormonism and make it look bad. In contrast to this we have the words of Joseph and Brigham that all people have some truth. We embrace it all. I will take all the truth from you I can get. Will you look at Mormonism in the same light?

Amanda said...

I'm not a religious person by any means. But I don't judge anyone for whatever they want to believe in. If you believe in polygamy, then I believe that you should live that lifestyle. But, as far as the FLDS people..why do you follow a man that is hiding? If he is so right, then why not come out and defend himself. And do you know that when Joseph Smith was wanted, he turned himself in the first time to show his people that what he believed in was true? He did not hide. And also, why believe in a man that marries off young girls? Why not let the girls make their own choices? If he teaches the truth, and God gives him direction, then why does he not believe in himself enough to let the girls choose their own husbands at an older age? If his teachings are so great, shouldn't he believe in them and trust that he ist eaching the right things to the people that follow him?

mugwump said...


It appears that we can agree to disagree. I have no problem with that. open debate of opposing views opens minds to another view. My problem comes when one of the parties (OTS) backs up his opinion with very little of substrance but only rubbish. If this blog was being printed out, I dare say OTS's contribution would dominate rolls of newsprint. I don't think that many people read OTS because they, like me, have come to the conclusion that he is none other than the other side of Warren Jeff's split personality. Jeffs has created such a quagmire within his own people that I'm afraid that those who have, in good faith, contributed significantly to the UEP will be stranded with nothing. Never the less, OTS will continue to praise himself as having received divine revelation.

It's just sick. I grieve for those who will suffer because of his arrogance.

fttc said...


You are so right. Don't think I am not embarrassed to have people of OTS and warren's ilk come from the same background as I. They took the wrong turn back somewhere and are now seeing the road washed out. They will bounce over that part and keep going until they come the bridge over the gulf that is also washed out. Then I am afraid they will plunge headlong into the abyss.

I appreciate that you can see the suffering that is happening and will happen. It is so much more heartbreaking to me and others who still have family willingly participating.

fttc said...


Excellent points.

Joseph Smith was once asked how he had so much influence with the people. His reply was that he just teaches them the truth and they govern themselves. Try fitting that on warren's doctrines!

onthestreet said...

MUGRUMP Said: When Jesus spoke admonitions it was usually to the priests, scribes and Pharisees. HE demonstrated Heavenly, God like love to those who didn't claim to be in total obedience to Moses' law.

There you go, Muggy. SEE? "Heavenly, Godlike love to those who don't totally obey the law. For it is a lesser law, yes?

So very perceptive of you. This is FLDS, as all can plainly see.

onthestreet said...

fttc said (10:15 am): I think you are looking for anything that you can throw in the face of mormonism and make it look bad. In contrast to this we have the words of Joseph and Brigham that all people have some truth. We embrace it all. I will take all the truth from you I can get. Will you look at Mormonism in the same light? 8/09/2005 10:15 AM

STREET's Reply: Hale no. All the LDS fokeseys do is proselyte their changed and defiled version, now having a form of godliness (if that, anymore), but denying the power thereof.

Okay, what about the FLDS doing the same. Sorry fokes, closed for business. The doors of the Wedding Feast are locked, and all who climb up some other way are thrown down.

onthestreet said...

Anonymous Said (8/09/2005 3:20 PM)

But, as far as the FLDS people..why do you follow a man that is hiding? If he is so right, then why not come out and defend himself. And do you know that when Joseph Smith was wanted, he turned himself in the first time to show his people that what he believed in was true? He did not hide. And also, why believe in a man that marries off young girls? Why not let the girls make their own choices? If he teaches the truth, and God gives him direction, then why does he not believe in himself enough to let the girls choose their own husbands at an older age? If his teachings are so great, shouldn't he believe in them and trust that he ist eaching the right things to the people that follow him? 8/09/2005 3:20 PM

STREET's Reply: Ahh, so you really DON'T know your history. Okay, let me refresh:

"And Joseph had to HIDE from his enemies continually."

"And Jesus left the temple, and HID HIMSELF."

"And the Prophets HID themselves in caves."


onthestreet said...

fttc Said: Joseph Smith was once asked how he had so much influence with the people. His reply was that he just teaches them the truth and they govern themselves. Try fitting that on warren's doctrines! 8/09/2005 8:20 PM

STREET's Reply: OOoops, you forgot: He taught the LDS correct principle, and 99.9% of them fell away for political gain.

Warren does the same, and yes "the gospel net gathers all kinds," and then the chaff falls away.

Ahh, THE TWO FIT! Nicely Put.

mugwump said...

Reader please note:

The last four posts were made by a man calling himself onthestreet. He is, however, none other than Warren Jeffs, a fugative from justice, He under U.S. Federal Warrant for arrest. The charge: Crossing a state line to avoid prosecution, a felony offence. There is currently a $10,000.00 reward offered by the states of Arizona an Utah for his capture. If you happen to see this man, reported to be about 6ft. 4 inches tall, weight 145 lbs., please notify your state or local police department. He is also wanted in the states of Utah and Arizona regarding the offenses of sexual contact with a minor and conspiring to commit sexual contact with a minor. Seven other men have been arrested on these charges and currently await trial.

This man, Jeffs, as you can see, is a bulwark of his community, a model for all of humanity a paragon of virtue. He desires that his followers be racially pure, of sweet disposition and give absolute, immediate obedience to his orders.

In a civil suit, in Utah, Jeffs has been found at fault in a case charging him of child molestation related to his having committed sodomy with his five year old nephew. Neither Jeffs nor his council came to court to plea innocence or to give an accounting of the plaintiff's actions or to challenge a plaintiff's witness. When Jeffs is found, he will in all probability claim to be Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ incarnate.

He is the epitomy of everything mere mortals aspire to find in a leader. Kind, benevolent, forgiving, generous, self-giving, adding more than he takes, etc.

Amanda said...

On the street:

Joseph Smith did hide at first. But then he realized he was wrong to do so. He turned himself in more than once. And he died while in custody. But he still stood up for what he believed in and went to show the people that he believed in what he taught. A true "Prophet" that believes he is right would turn himself in. A true "prophet" would believe in what he was teaching and trust that his teachings would lead people to the right choices. A true "prophet" would not have to FORCE his people to marry his way. And also, Jesus died because he didn't hide in the end. Warren is a coward that knows he is wrong. If he didn't KNOW he was wrong and truly believed that what he was doing was right, he would show himself and face the charges brought against him. Both Joseph Smith and Jesus stood up for what they taught and what they believed in and died doing so. WHERE IS YOUR PROPHET NOW?

Amanda said...

On the street:

FOLKS..that's how it is spelled. It is not fokes. Fokes is not even a word.

In response to your reply:
STREET's Reply: OOoops, you forgot: He taught the LDS correct principle, and 99.9% of them fell away for political gain.

If they leave then what's the big deal? If you let them have their own choices and if they don't believe in what you say or leave for whatever reason they choose, why does it matter? Why not let them leave? Why do you want to force someone to stay if they don't believe? Isn't life in general about being good to other people and being pure at heart. Everyone sins. Why not let them learn on their own? And, if their choices are wrong they will return. As the old saying goes..if you love someone set them free. If they belong to you, they will return.

onthestreet said...

That's it "FOKES": Jesus and Joseph HID THEMSELVES, and finally came forth willingly to be slain. Some day, you man all have the pleasure of seeing the very same courage and sacrifice from this man, "And greater love hath no man, than to lay down his life for his friends."

Yes, Joseph taught the people correct principle, and "they" governed themselves, some goodly, some poorly. Warren has done the very same, and the YFZ FOKES govern themselves so unitedly that it just frightens the wicked to death.

You're all right that those who have left had THEIR OWN choice. This is more evidence that the FLDS is a free people, and free minded, and those who stay are Pro-Choice. They chose, because that is their greatest JOY.

Of course, the world and Satan not knowing such joy, will rage. RAGE ON, until you have exhausted all you have in you. Then, maybe you too will be worthy of a blessing from God. But being defiled, you will have to spend eternity in a lower glory.

I hope this doesn't bring on more raging on your part.

ATAR_i said...

Jesus could have fled the garden of Gethsemane - he knew they were coming - he didn't.

He didn't flee the law - he was showing his disciples another way. Peter wanted to fight - he let Peter know he would not do that.

I don't see any similarities.

Jesus didn't steal the fastest horse from a town merchant and hide all over the middle east.

warren has stolen a plane, and hides all over.

It was the religious who wanted Jesus dead - the law didn't care - he had done 'nothing wrong' according to the law.

It's the law who want warren incarcerated, and the religious who don't see that he's done anything wrong.

Nope - don't see any similarities.

fttc said...


Who is the "you all" you have refernce to. One of the foremost complaints against warren is that he kicks people out without a choice. We've also seen testimony here of those who stayed out of fear of losing their family. Quite some choices warren has afforded.

onthestreet said...

Paul said it best: "I am a prisoner for Jesus Christ." Yes, he and his prophet hold us captive and captivated in him. Those unwise virgins who are locked out of the Wedding Feast have not other choice, being defiled.

Now, the five wise virgins (the five right-hand fingers of God, or those who are on his right hand), are captive and captivated by Him, so that we are WHOLE, and one almalgamated WHOLE.

onthestreet said...

For years, "Jesus HID HIMSELF"
John 8:59 "Therefore they took up stones to throw at him, but Jesus HID HIMSELF, and went out of the temple.

"And Joseph HID HIMSELF from his enemies, and escapted."

Yes, both were slain, and when the time is right, perhaps you can put him in the same category. For if it is blood you seek, the Lord will satify you up to the horses' bridles.

mugwump said...

Did you ever think that perhaps Jesus, who healed the sick, caused the blind to see, the lame to walk, fed 4000 men and then 5000 men plus women and children, walked on water, calmed the storm, raised the dead to life, was crucified but rose from the dead, would need to physically "HIDE?" The wind and waves obeyed his will. Why shoud he not be able to block the view of himself from those seeking to interrupt his ministry. He was not hidden, nor did he hide in the garden when betrayed by Judas. When Jesus needed to be present, he was there.

where however, is your messiah! warren jeffs? can't say the same for him. he done run off like a skeered jackrabbit. (language, capitalization and spelling intentional)

onthestreet said...


"Block the view?" Is that not hiding, and is not the scripture TRUE:

"John 8:59 Therefore they took up stones to throw at him: but Jesus HID HIMSELF, and went out of the temple.

See, Warren has done the same.

Anonymous said...

onthestreet said...
MUGGY: "Block the view?" Is that not hiding, and is not the scripture TRUE:
"John 8:59 Therefore they took up stones to throw at him: but Jesus HID HIMSELF, and went out of the temple. See, Warren has done the same. 8/11/2005 6:38 PM

Dear Streetie,

YOU NEED HELP RIGHT NOW. You keep comparing Warren to Jesus.

God "The Father" is taking notes, via his Holy Ghost!


mugwump said...

Why don't we swat at gnats and swallow camels? Because of the size, stupid!

Please note ots continuing practice of quoting scripture exactly as recorded in KJV. Anyone, besides ots, read Greek? Remember though, Greek has no punctuation. It's not that I don't trust street. I just thinks he will tell a lie, when it serves his purpose to do so.

Troops in Iraq are able to "hide" in plain sight. It's called camouflage.

onthestreet said...

THERE YOU GO. Speaking of camels and camouflage, these share the same root with various etymologies: Camel is Hebrew, Camouflage is French, Camera is Latin, Came is Gaelic, Shem the HIDDEN seed, and Camphor is Malay.

Now analyze it: They all refer to light: The camel dwells in the desert, the result of great light and heat, the camera uses light to conceive the picture, to come is to approach a light or goal, and Shem (or "cem") is the seed of Adam in the highest degree of three lights or three glories.

What is camouflage? Came-of-Lage. What is Lage? Does "Lodge" sound familiar? So it is to come to the light, and lodge behind a covering, to do battle against the darkness. The HIDDEN treasure is what the Lord HIDES up against the darkness, for those who can perceive the light. For such, it is a light on a hill which cannot be hidden. For all else, it is darkness itself, for the gross darkness that covers their minds.

onthestreet said...


Don't you consider the Prophet Warren the least of men?

"What ye do unto the least of these, ye do unto me," saith the Lord.

And he declares all the prophets in his likeness, created without hands after his own image.

And your Redeemer COMMANDS you to "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

IE: "COMPARE" yourself to Christ, and to His Father. To do this, you need a prophet:

"I the Lord will do NOTHING save I will reveal it to my servants, the Prophets." To false prophets? Go figure. Also:

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14.)

Ninevah's people heard, believed, repented and turned to God. The truth had set them free. From the king to the lowest slave, all bowed before the only true God. Nobody allowed position and pride to get in the way, for each one wore the same sackcloth and ashes. King Ashduran III called for the nation to repent.

History informs us that Assyria turned from polytheism to monotheism during his reign. Jonah’s preaching was the climax of the “signs” he had received. In 765 and 759 B.C. Assyria experienced plagues. In 763 B.C. there was a total eclipse of the sun. To the superstitious Assyrians these were bad omens, so when Jonah preached about damnation they eagerly accepted the truth. Today we would have mass retaliation instead of mass repentance if the government called for national repentance.

How does God work? How does God lead? Without a prophet the darkness would have continued unbroken over Egypt. Without a prophet the years of slavery and tears would have advanced without any relief.

"Come, Listen to a Prophet's Voice"
If we listen to the voice of the Lord through His living prophet, the Lord has given some marvelous guarantees without any disclaimers....

www.lds.org/conference/talk/ display/0,5232,49-1-22-4,00.html

onthestreet said...

Having said that Christ "commands" us, He also leaves us FREE TO CHOOSE. Then, the consequences of our choice is all that's left.

ATAR_i said...

Is that how you make it work in your own mind - by word association.

I always wondered how you developed your "streetology".

Now I got it - it's "HINK PINK STREETOLOGY".

mugwump said...

I think ots (wj) has choked on a lexicon. All he needs now is a thesaurus, and an all terrain vehicle so he can haul his B.S. back farther in the wilderness.

But better still, a two-way enema.

Don't confuse them with facts. Baffle them with B.S.

onthestreet said...


"I will put a stumbling block before them, because they love darkness rather than light."

Yet, it is not falsehood that you actually stumble over, but the truth itself, the meat of the truth, which babies cannot digest.

ATAR_i said...

Are you exalting yourself - interesting - I kinda thought that wasn't a good trait.

Also a little delusional - cuz I'm not tripping while you are verbally flippin'

mugwump said...

atta girl, Atar_i

onthestreet said...

Atar: LOL: Damn, was that TAR I slipped on?

No, I too am a babe, a very fine woman. But the tripping is in the rejecting of God's word unawares, like when you step in your own STUFF.

ATAR_i said...

Now your a woman - yeah right.

I'm not tripping - you are. You can't say one thing without contradicting yourself from another post.

onthestreet said...

Can you count to one?

onthestreet said...

One is all inclusive of the Centillion and beyond. How many zero's. Keter is nigh unto nothingness.

onthestreet said...

It is a number of body, mind, and soul, but what does that mean?

ATAR_i said...

Yes, in your old posts you mention how the evil gentiles kill their own babies and now you say you are pro choice.

That's one.

mugwump said...

Astrology, numerology, palmstry; congering, fortune telling all are very reminscent of the practice of witchcraft.

The ability to read objects placed in an overturned hat and the ability to use a "seer" stone smacks of being possessed by the devil.

Too much mystery and majic for me to try to comprehend.

Anonymous said...

You contradict yourself by saying you believe warren to be your prophet and seer and then getting on the internet.

mugwump said...

Anon. 1:01 AM

That is an enigma isn't it?

onthestreet said...

Most studies of the occult is evil, because of the spirit, and the diversions, and purposes that come from beneath. However, no sane mind can discredit the zodiac, the constellations. LOOK UP. There it is, and no sane mind would dare say that to study God's creation is evil, or "devil worship."


Abortion is MURDER, pure and simple. The FLDS is Pro-Choice as to free agency, NOT abortion. The Lord said it HIMSELF: "The liberal soul shall be made fat."

Poor, poor devils, stuck in a corner and can't drag themselves out.

onthestreet said...

Internet, TV, Cars, Cellphones...

We use the tools that God invented.
It's the abuse of them that is banned.


ATAR_i said...

So, you, by your own convession believe in murder and witchcraft - makes sense. And that's the truth

mugwump said...

Oh really, did God create the computer, it's monitor screen you use to view this message? Did He create the extensive network for your exclusive use? If so, how am I able to send my thoughts to you? Anyone who chooses to go on line and seek out Texas Polygamy can view what both you and I, plus fttc, Ogre, Men in Black, Ancient Mormon, Pilot, atar_i et. al. who routinely contribute.

How about automobiles and trucks. Pictures of YFZ show these in abundance. Are the people there sining becuse they use autos, trucks, earth movers, forklifts, cement mixers and hoppers, jet pump water wells, tanks to hold propane, backhoes, maintainers, rock saws, lathes; I could go on to infinity. God didn't create these items but, gave man a challenge to go forth and conquer the earth. Some of these things we take for granted are fairly new. However, man was able to move earth, build buildings, dig water wells, and many other things prior to the modern era.

How about electronic security systems. I guess God created that too. That huge white albatross sitting in the middle of YFZ, was that spoken into existence?

You just stuck your foot in your mouth and then kicked yourself in the head because you didn't have a place to put your other foot. This could be expanded upon but with respect to the spirit of this web site I will refrain.

mugwump said...

murder etc. was practiced by the LeBaron group, the Laffartys, those who massacred the innocents at Mountain meadows. WJ has advocated blood atonement. When he is caught maybe cooler heads will prevail.

onthestreet said...

Yes, God is the creator of all things. You belittle Him, while giving a public demonstration of your crimes, your abuse and violence. You are certainly deceived. Such is the gentile and the wicked, whom John said "Satan shall deceive THE WHOLE WORLD."

Is the Whole World Deceived?
"deceive the whole world" (Revelation 12:9). Many people do not believe in the devil at all,
and many of those who do aren't sure what they should believe, ...
Chapter 13 of Revelation describes the Two Beasts: ... 4- The Beast becomes a great religious figure, adored by the whole world,together with the adoration ...

The Book of Revelation Teaches Reincarnation Part II: Revelation
Revelation 20:11-12 NIV The book of Revelation also speaks of ... God knew that Satan would deceive the whole world (had already deceived the whole world)...
reluctant. messenger.com/reincarnation-revelation-2.htm

mugwump said...

Pardon me, but I believe that Warren Jeffs is the one on the run from the law. He's on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.

Lost a civil suit brought by his nephew who Warren sodomized when the nephew was five years old. Some model for children...

Failure to appear lost the FLDS its control of UEP.

Under indictment in two states for having sexual relations with a minor

Hunted nationwide as a fugative for crossing state lines to avoid procecution.

Sure sounds like the kind of guy you would want to entrust the care of your minor children and your money.

A paragon of virtous living and exemplary behavior.


mugwump said...

Someone posted that Warren Jeffs was the "Anti-Christ"

that he is an "Anti-Christ" i won't argue but, to be THE ANTI-CHRIST he must gain worldwide policical and spiritual power. This WJ has not done, noe in my estimation will he ever be able to acomplish. In his small corner of America he has weilded absolute power but, that power is not being fully tested since he has been indicted by The State of Arizona and placed on the MOST WANTED by the FBI list.

onthestreet said...

MAN PROPOSES, GOD DISPOSES. MOST WANTED BY MAN FOR EVIL, AND BY GOD FOR GOOD. What man calls good and evil is NOT. "My ways are not man's ways," saith the Lord.

I can refute every charge. For example, you say he is "Under indictment in two states for having sexual relations with a minor."

Now, all America and law enforcement know that's a lie. What they in fact charge him with is placing two people together, one of which was "underage". Yet, Mary was 13 when she conceived of God the Father. So you all say that GOD IS A CRIMINAL, like Warren, and God was alot older than 50, or 500, or 5,000. What kind of an "old geezer" and "dirty old man" would that make him? This is the basis of your charges, calling marriage rape, etc.

Now, who's the criminal?


mugwump said...

Warren Jeffs.

onthestreet said...

You prove my point: Like a common criminal, "having eyes but seeing not, and having ears but hearing not," in perpetual denial of any truth at all.

Yet, the FLDS accept truth wherever it is found: The LDS Church, the Catholic, the Protestant, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Taoist, the Muslim, the Athiest, and HELL ITSELF.

Do any of you see it, the height and breadth of Truth?

mugwump said...

Probably better than you do. You are so confused you think the street is above your head. Warren Jeffs is a WANTED man. Not for his goodness, his place within the cloister of your chosen place of worship, his credentials, his personality but for participating in child abuse.

CHILD ABUSE - CHILD ABUSE - CHILD ABUSE and on and on and on.

Get on board. Join the reality of living in 2005, or get in your space ship and leave the galaxy.

Your world of make beliieve has ended. Your Darth Vader has left you with squeeky cheese stuck between your teeth, and a case of extremely bad breath.

Faithful Woman said...


What is it with you? Every time I read your posts I think that you are almost as bad as street, if that is possible.

Are you a pastor of a church or something?

Besides, I thought that the Texans liked the squeeky cheese. Or did they neglect to give you any.

Just as an enlightenment, warren doesn't like the dairy. he himself doesn't believe in drinking milk nor having his family drink it. And the dairy has had to be subsidised for years to get it where it was before warren had the stock sold off. If it were up to him the dairy would share the same fate as the zoo.

warren can't stand anything that will give him any competition in draining the resourses of the UEP.

Anonymous said...

Go get him, Faithful Woman! We're with you!

mugwump said...

Good insight faithful woman. Personaly I have never tasted squeeky cheese, to my knowledge. I know that it is produced in your area. I think it's manufacture, if it adds to your economy, is a good thing.

I won't pretend to understand any of the underlying motives for anything WJ does or says.

As I have kept up with the story, he, an unknown, has become a daily source of interest to those of us who live close to his Texas Zion.
On the street has done WJ no good because he quotes, and mis-quotes lines and lines of what he proclaims to be divinely inspired scripture. I have found a lot of pleasure from taking shots at him. He is such an obvious target. He writes so much, but says so little.

Don't think me your enemy. I am concerned about the loss of your funds, your homes, your schools, your children growing up in happy homes with laughter and real joy.

I went to school with a girl who was LDS. She seemed to be happy, I think she was. Although I didn't understand her faith I respected it. I respect your willingness to step aside from the norm and attempt to establish a Godly home. I wish for you and all the FLDS restoration of your home, school, your right to a joyful life. I think you have been robbed by a clever imposter and I am afraid that unless some of you common folk lead out, the same problems will continue to occur. You and your family and friends will be the one's hurt. I pray for your wisdom and safety.

Although I would never consider becomming a LDS (any form), I will stand firm and protect your right to worship in your own way.

I disagree with you, but will stand firm for your right to take an opposing view.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump you are so damn condescending I'm almost surprised you weren't converted by reading all of warrens crap. The great Christian elite, only in a different colored robe.

You would have been part of the Missouri mobs a centry ago. All in the name of your religion too.

onthestreet said...

8/19/2005 8:55 PM
Muggy: No godliness in "stepping aside", as you put it, if YOUR Bible and Lord are true: "Straight is the Gate, and narrow the Way"

Also, our way is STRAIGHT to us, if what YOU SAY is true, in saying
"I disagree with you, but will stand firm for your right to take an opposing view."

There you go! Be firm in that, rather than criticizing it. Show the world some of your truth and compassion.

mugwump said...

I suspect that my adversaries are greatly frustrated because they know I am making points with the people they want to control. I know where they are coming from but they haven't a clue about me. Why? Because if they read my posts it will require them to put on their thinking caps get out their bible, JS's writings won't help them to try and prove me wrong.

I am kicking the "Priesthood" in the shins, and they don't like it one bit.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, Mugs, It's called "kicking against the pricks." It's a good discription of what you are doing. But not the way you think.

Making points? Oh ya. Like taking the little end of nothing and whittleing it down to a point. You and Street.. whittling away at each others "points". roflmao

Reading your posts requires only a barf bag. Nobody needs a brain to understand you you perfectly.

Mr Mugwump, the pompous preacher from perdition. Quoting the Bible won't help you either.

mugwump said...

Anony: 8/20 1:57PM

Thank you for your kind words. Your show of respect for God's word is noted. The rest is ignored.

onthestreet said...

For everyone's information, there's probably a humongous total of twenty people (20) who read these posts, maybe even a hundred, and of that number maybe five from the FLDS faithful, our of 10,000 people.

Good targeting. How can you make any points that way.

mugwump said...

It's not my responsability to gather the crowd. It is my responsability to tell any who gather that God so loved the world that he gave his Only Begotten Son, that whosoever should beleaveth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but through Him they might be saved. John 3:16-17

onthestreet said...

And who sent you? Who gave you that mission? Was it God, or man, or a legion? If you were voted in by a committee, or just doing it on your own, then it is the work of man, agreed?

"All prophets were ordained by God Himself."

mugwump said...

That you would ask so foolish a question is an offense. I need no authority to tell my story.

I am but a sinner, saved by Grace, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. My hope is in nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteousness.

Faithful Woman said...

I did not consider that post by mugwump right after mine to be condescending. I found it rather usefull in understanding him.
I also understand that it isn't my religion or the FLDS that he is taking pot shots at so much as at street.
It gets irritating to me when I think it may be directed at those I love, but street has been so vindictive himself that I say have at 'im.

ATAR_i said...

I agree Faithful. Through meeting you and others, I have learned more about what you believe by an honest exchange of words.

Initially, perhaps I was more flabbergasted - as an atheist might be if I told him I put my faith in God - which he believed to be a totally ridiculous notion.

Now, I have come to understand this is a sincere belief, rooted in the BOM and D&C's. While I might not believe them to be divine - I can certainly see that their followers follow them earnestly.

I don't believe inherantly those books have led to the problems which created this blog, but some of their roots find water there - like the black race issue, and the celestial marriage.

It's difficult, and I don't know how many of you feel about the black race - from what I have heard of warrens sermons, this is in your scriptures - yes? How have you dealt with this issue?

Are there any scriptures of yours that deal directly with celestial marriage and how it is supposed to happen? Do the people decide, the fathers, the prophet - are there any that deal directly with how and when it happens?

Has the problem been the men who have taken power, and the lack of following the heart of the scriptures?

I'd love to have a discussion on this - because I'm curious.

fttc said...


Hope you don't mind me inserting some here.

I think you hit the nail square with your question. It is only the lack of following our scriptures that give warren the room to become the monster he has. Or for that matter any other man who takes the agency of man away. Nowhere in our scriptures or the teaching of JS will you find where man's agency to choose is abbrogated. Agency is an essential principle for any achievement with God. If we do not good by our own free will it is nothing to us. This is one of the worst things warren has done to us; taking away our freedom to choose.

Celestial Marriage takes place according to revelation when done correctly. This revelation can originate with the man or woman involved, the parents, or the man holding the sealing keys. However to avoid confusion it must be done through the channels of Priesthood. There have been girls who were inspired who they were to marry. There have been men inspired the same. I know several cases where the girl found out from inspiration who she was meant for but said nothing. In time the key holder called her in and confirmed her beleif without ever knowing that she knew.

It is a fundamental principle of ours that we made covenents in heaven before we came here with our spouse(s) and children. This is one of the doctrines warren changed. He made it so only the "prophet" could decide who married whom. He did away with the covenants in heaven teachings.

ATAR_i said...

Fttc - I had thought as much - and you have confirmed it.

I appreciate this dialogue.

Can you tell me how FLDS feels about the 'black race'?

onthestreet said...

The black brother is just that, a brother, and a colorful one at that. In any language, when something is "colored"... there, you can finish it to fit your own personality.

As for who decides the marriages, every marriage the prophet performs is decided in the heavens, and comes directly from the Lord...but few there be who then honor those vows.

It's like any law: Some are good laws, some are bad. Some marriages are made in heaven, some are not.

I hope this helps a little.

mugwump said...


As convoluted as your retorts on this blog have become, I really believe that you spend most of the time talking to one of your other selves.

You refer to God? You seem to embrace a multiple-god-theology. You mention the Lord. Who is your Lord? Why can't a mature man and woman meet, become acquainted and be given the opportunity to see if they are suited to each other, determine if they have have mutual goals and desires and if so choose to marry each other, or not?

Do you have a big switchboard connected to a larger-than-life computer somewhere else in the galixy that plays games with itself to determine who is to marry whom?

I don't care for your system. You place too many controls in the hands of your "taskmaster" the prophet, who just runs the auction barn and slaughter-house and who knows nothing about the people that he matches up. Methinks a match includes a payoff, to the profit's (intentional) pocket, thus having a serious effect upon his ruling.

So, a father has a beautiful daughter just attaining puberty. Just like a side of bacon, or pork bellys, her body goes on the auction block. An old gieser, say 75 years old wants a little fresh bacon. Do you not think that when he looks over crowd at meeting, and sees the pretty young pork chop seated among his buddy's plural wives, his mouth waters in anticipation of a potential addition to his harem?

The father sees an opportunity to earn a little 'equity' or a 'stud fee',for himself,having sired this lovely daughter. He reasons that the fee is to pay 'HIM' back for the money his plural wife, the child's mother, earned to pay for the food, shelter and clothing that allowed the comley daughter to achieve her present desirable state of being. In addition, papa earns a nice bonus. The profit (intentional) acting as a broker, seals the deal. He makes a tidy commission, the old man gets fresh meat and papa, dear old loving papa, puts 10% in the tithing box and the rest of the cash in a savings account, or under his #1 wife's matress, because he has his eye on another man's eleven year old daughter. "Hmmm, she shows great promise as a plural wife," he thinks. I hear the wheels turning now and the profit's (intentional) cash-register ringing up another successful exchange of daughter-on-the-foot. (I would use "hoof" but that would belittle my opinion of the innocent young lady about to be sacrificed upon the altar of lust.)

You ask, "Is that how the outside world views our lifestyle?"

Answer: Yep, sure is!!!!

fttc said...


You have heard warren's teachings on the black race. You ask about the FLDS view and that is probably it. I have used the term FLDS myself rather loosely to denominate our group from LDS. Actually the FLDS did not exist until about 1996 when Sam Barlow and warren were trying to reorganize the UEP to once and for all get control of any dissidents. I do not nor ever have belonged to a church called the FLDS. This is another of warrens creations that goes counter to what our leaders have taught. I did not know if you were aware of this. Having said that, if I use FLDS in my posts it is only for convenience as I want no connection with warren's works.

I have never had to deal with the issue of the blacks as I have never lived among or around them. I can only give you Joseph Smith's own words which appear to me respectful of them. I have always treated those I have come in contact with in business with the same respect I wish to be treated with.

I take these words from the Documentary History of the Church by B.H. Roberts.

"Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine of many of those they brush and wait on."

"Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization."

I am getting too lengthy for a post, but would like to add that Joseph Smith had a negro servant (not a slave), he was opposed to slavery.

ATAR_i said...

warrens beliefs on the black race were something beyond what you speak of.

He stated that the ONLY reason that Ham's wife was on the ark was so that the devil might have a representation on earth.

And, he said quite a bit more, I have a transcript.

Thank you for explaining your relationship to warren/FLDS that was helpful.

While I agree that kindness might be shown to strangers, is the underlying belief that those who are African American are not on equal footing, so much so that they are a representation of the devil on earth?

Anonymous said...

If you want to know what fundamentalists really think about Black people, just get a car load of your African American friends and take a drive into Colorado City. The whole town would freak out. Watch how the children react. Look at the fear on their faces.
I grew up in this group. What Warren teaches is pretty much what his predecessors taught but they weren't dumb enough to record it.

fttc said...

After this last post I wonder if I grew up with the same people. I was never taught that black people were a representation of the devil.

We were always taught that they have a black skin because of their performance in a former life. But this was not a reason to look down on them. It is more like someone in America choosing not to get a highschool education. They are not going to be on the same level with those who go onto get a degree, but if you believe in Christ you don't think less of these people. Some people do not choose to use the opportunities they have.

According to the teachings of JS the black race did not use the opportunity afforded them. You cannot find anywhere in his teachings where he relates them to representatives of the devil.

Paladin for Truth said...

A lot of what Warren teaches about the blacks came from Sidney Rigdon. Sidney put some stuff into print after Joseph died. Sidney was trying to get people to not follow Brigham, so he made up a bunch of teachings that Joseph supposedly told him, trying to get people to follow him. Warren just never was smart enough to check and see that maybe Joseph never thought the way the Sidney said he did about the blacks.

onthestreet said...

The devil is often more in whitefoke than coloredfoke. Nobody said that the colored race represents Lucifer. Only demons represent Lucifer, and some white and blackfoke who may be possessed of some of those spirits. The Negro brother is descended of Cain, not Lucifer, unless Cain's spirit descends from Satan in his rebellion against God. Then, even whitefoke can fit in that class. Else, why does Jesus call anyone who does their own will and not God's will as "the children of the devil"? Now that represents Satan.

ATAR_i said...

Below is a link to a clip where warren states that the negro race is the "seed of Cain" survived the flood of Noah because Noah's son Ham was married to "a wife of that seed" which he identified as being black. He claimed it was necessary for the black race to be preserved "because it was necessary that the Devil should have a representation upon the Earth as well as God"

Listen for yourself. I have the whole tap - but this quote is online for reference.


mugwump said...


HAW, HAW, HAW, another revelation?

onthestreet said...

HO, HO, HO, Merry Christmas, and for good boys and girls I have a gift: This was the revelation of the Lord to me (8/23/2005 5:01 AM), which I just posted:

"The Negro brother is descended of Cain, not Lucifer, unless Cain's spirit descends from Satan in his rebellion against God."

See there, my brother. The statement is TRUE, and a happy new year to you. Jesus makes all things merry, and new, to those who will.

ATAR_i said...

Fttc - I'm curious your reaction after hearing that from warren - it sounds like that is something that you don't believe?

mugwump said...


That's really funny. You have had a revelation. Did someone "moon" you?

onthestreet said...

The Prophet spoke the truth, and I speak the truth, as THE LORD said, and as every true Christian knows as a fact, and that is this:

"The Negro brother is descended of Cain, not Lucifer, unless Cain's spirit descends from Satan in his rebellion against God."

Then, of course, the colored man, the white man, the red man, the yella, and all men whose spirit descends from Satan, would obviouse by "the children of the devil", says the Lord:

1 John: And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the ...In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil...

Genesis 3 Seduced by Satan. In this
the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: ...
(KJV). John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light ...

onthestreet said...

Sorry, typo in third paragraph:
"would obviously be..."

See, I am a sinner.

mugwump said...


We all know that, are you repentant?

mugwump said...

re. 8/22/05 8:46 PM

I have worked beside, lived near and have been befriended by people who were "black." To tell the truth, I can't really tell much difference in capabilities, if they are given opportunity for education and a chance to observe the life style of any average Anglo-American.

Dependent upon their character I have found them to reflect morality equal to their experience.

In the deep south, and in the inner city ghetos of Mid-America they have the capability to rise far beyond their experience. Many go to colleges and universities and serve with honor in the armed services of America. They make good soldiers, sailors and marines.

Honor means as much to them as does to any honorable American.

OTS and his idol WJ have developed a false doctrine, not found anywhere in the Bible. A black man bore Our Saviors Cross to Calvary. A black man was converted to Christianity when Philip witnessed to him of Jesus on his return trip to Ethiopia.

I have heard black ministers both honor the Lord and, in an attempt to seek greater honor for themself, have sold their souls to Satan's service for political gain.

I value Bill Cosby. His honesty regarding why black people remain in bondage will, in time, though not politically correct, become a watermark event to aspiring black children, bound by circumstance, to recognize that they too can rise above their beginnings. I pray that they will seek to follow Bill's advise.

We anglos must remember that the black people didn't come to America as invited guests. They did not colonize. They were removed from the home of their families, broug over the ocean in "slavers", in the most filthy environment immaginable. They were sold into bondage to profit both the seller and buyer, who were white. They served in bondage, thought of as no more than an animal and treated no better for 200 years. Their release came suddenly and without assistance to learn that which had been denied them for so long, from 1865 until 1956 made little or no headway toward becoming an enlightened citizen.

In spite of having had some pretty poor self anointed leadership many have been able to overcome their handicaps and become productive citizens, rearing fine, godly children.

fttc said...


Not having been exposed to working and living with black people as I said I appreciate your words.

Knowing how you feel of JS I risk insulting you perhaps, but if the nation would have followed his advice in dealing with the slaves as presented in his presidential campaign the blacks would be far better off today in America than they are. JS did not teach even close to what warren does about the black race.

onthestreet said...

Not even close, just exactly the same. All three (WJ, JS, JC) deplore some of the immoral gestures that originated from African dance and other cultures (not just Black), all three love them as children of God, and all three rebuke evil wherever it is found. Nothing wrong with any of that, is there?

"I object," scream the lawyers and the riff-raff.

1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you:He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."

mugwump said...


If my memory serves me corectly, the U.S. did just that. the result was the African nation of Liberia. It never has experienced a whole lot of success.

The leaders, newly freed slaves had not learned the basics for making government work.

An example of their ineptness was demonstrated by the "Carpetbagger" government, appointed by the Radical Republican government, that was forced upon the southern states following the Civil War. The men of the south, who had run the local and state governments prior to, and during the war were prohibited from holding office because they were considered as a part of the inserrection. The great plantations were in ruin, industry was crushed. The black man was transfered from a dependent state (within the restrictions of slavery) to an independent state of being without means or training. One solution was the attempt to colonize Liberia with ex slaves.

Had the U.S. had the foresight to allow the freed slaves an opportunity to learn basic skills, reading, writing, spelling, simple math and allowed, after about ten years of training to become potential leaders and better educated followers, the potential for Liberia's success would have been much greater.