Friday, July 01, 2005

Wanted: New Trustees For FLDS Financial Empire

Breaking news from the childbrides.org web site

Wanted: New Trustees For FLDS Financial Empire

By Ben Winslow
KSL NewsRadio 1160

SALT LAKE CITY (KSL News Services) -- The courts are now accepting applications from people who want to be in charge of the Fundamentalist LDS Church's multi-million dollar empire.

The Utah Attorney General's Office is hoping to get the word out and at the same time distance itself from the financial arm of the polygamous church.

"We don’t want to be seen as some people already think we are, as the state, the government, trying to take over religion," says Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.

Shurtleff says they plan to run newspaper ads and even hold a town meeting in the polygamous towns of Hildale and Colorado City to get new trustees. He hopes current FLDS members will step forward and take control of it. "People who have been involved in the trust, current or former member, people who live on trust property."

The courts stripped FLDS leader Warren Jeffs of his control over the church's financial empire. Shurtleff and his office are not involved in selecting new trustees.

radio.ksl.com
Originally broadcast July 1, 2005

110 comments:

Anonymous said...

A NOTICE OF INTERESTED PARTIES AND RESPONSE TO PETITIONS was filed in this matter on May 27, 2005 by Richard Jessop Ream, Thomas Samuel Steed, Don Ronald Fischer, Dean Joseph Barlow, Walter Scott Fischer, Richard Gilbert, and Brent Jeffs, proposing the following individuals as trustees: Lee Van Dam accountant
Rayo S. Johnson
Caroline (Carolyn) Jessop
Winston Blackmore
Don Timpson
Roger Williams
Margaret Cook.


A PRIVATE BENEFICIARY PETITIONERS’ NOTICE OF PROPOSED SUBSTITUTE TRUSTEES AND REQUEST FOR PARTIAL REFORMATION OF TRUST was filed in this matter on June 29, 2005 by Richard L. Holm, John W. Nielsen and Merril T. Stubbs, individually, and on behalf of their minor children, proposing the following individuals as trustees: Lee Van Dam; Richard L. Holm; Carolyn Jessop; Winston Blackmore; Don Timpson; Merrill J. Harker; George R. Hammon; Rayo S. Johnson; Roger Williams; and Margaret Cooke.

On July 21, 2005 the Court will conduct a hearing to appoint new trustees. Interested parties can propose trustees by filing a petition with the court 10 days prior to the hearing and provide notice.

Third Judicial District Court, in and for Salt Lake County, State of Utah Case No. 053900848


7/01/2005 5:04 PM

onthestreet said...

WANTED: Goats skilled in riding a lame duck.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Street you are so talented with sarcasm.

By the way I know some goats and jackasses who could ride a lame duck and turn it into a silk purse with money in it to spare with God's help.

God works in mysterious ways, or haven't you heard. He likes to use silly and simple things to bring men to their knees.

God is not on your side, fool.

Anonymous said...

let's hope that neither Ruth nor Street apply for this position. If anyone sees them writing a resume - grab it and burn it!

quiet canadian said...

Hey, we have a pretty good concern for the UEP interests here in Canada. I think that those of us here should be given an opportunity to have our say in such an important matter as deciding who should represent us, as trustees in controlling our lands and the Bountiful School.
I won't be able to attend any town meetings in the south but I would like to express my opinion. I think the first nominees for trustees should be the people who have transferred their property into the trust. These people contributed their property in good faith that it would be held and used to support the church as well as the people.
The first thing any Trustee nominees need to think about, is How are the property taxes going to be paid? Taxes are due on the Canadian properties by July 4.

Anonymous said...

I nominate Jim Runge & Randy Mankin of Eldorado, Texas fame to be trustees.

Anonymous said...

In all consideration for the people living in CC and Hildale, and to their minor children and grown children. Isnt the issue at hand to help these people live BETTER lives?
Well then WHY would 2 of these men ;nominated by Richard L. Holm, John W. Neilson, and Merril T. Stubbs; even be considered for the board of trustees. Two are well known to have severely abused there own children and others.

And Carolyn,Are you NUTS even to consider working with these two men!!!
HHHHEEELLLLOOOOO?????
BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Please dont put any abusers in the position in which you are trying to remove them.

Thanks for letting me share. :)

Anonymous said...

I think that Hugh and Thelma would make good trustees. After all wouldn't they be working in concert with their intellectual equals.

Anonymous said...

Jim, Randy, Thelma and Hugh!!! A trustee meeting would be more fun to watch than a five ring circus. Jim and Randy throwing out the bait, Thelma and Hugh, swallowing it hook, line and sinker!

Anonymous said...

There is something going on up here in Canada. Warrenites are everywhere. I can't imagine them all coming up if Warren wasn't here. I know it isn't for a 4th of July celebration. That would be wicked. Must have called a meeting or something. Does anyone out there know what is going on? Most of the people We see are from the crick

Anonymous said...

What are the Crick Warrentites doing up there? Are they helping with a major clean up of the area?

Anonymous said...

Reply to Anon 7/02/2005 2:57 AM

And Carolyn,Are you NUTS even to consider working with these two men!!!
HHHHEEELLLLOOOOO?????
BLAH BLAH BLAH.


Please don't try to talk Carolyn out of becoming a trustee. The UEP needs someone like her. The UEP needs trustees who have integrity, who are honest and trustworthy, who aren't greedy or might have a hidden adenda.

Personally, I think it would be nice to have ALL of the trustees be female. It would help address the power and control issues.

Besides, a dose of equal rights and women's lib might help bring the FLDS into the 21st century.

The community would benefit from having courageous, honorable women running the show for a change. The men in charge in the past sure have screwed things up. Its time for a change.

Nominate the best women for the job here!

I'll start by nominating Jane Blackmore to represent the Canadian group. Forget Winston; vote for Jane!

Anonymous said...

Ditto!

Anonymous said...

Hey, like someone needs to post some pictures of all the crick Warrenite vehicles and plate numbers up there in Canada. So we can all be on the watch for them.

Anonymous said...

Jane Blackmore doesn't give a horses a** about us here in Canada so why would we want her to represent us???

Anonymous said...

Lyle Jessop Is one of the warrenites up in Canada. He has been touring around to see all the UEP holdings in Canada. I wonder if he is planning on letting his name stand for a trustee. It truly amazes me that his boys Lyle & Orin both came up here a few years ago as outcasts from Warrenism. Winston helped them to get some hope in their lives. He recommended them and their dear wives to be married. Now these boys have turned bitterly against Winston. Warren, just like eating at Macdonalds "I'm loving it".
You might say, alot of these people up here in Canada have had their lives {Jimmied} out of line somewhat.

Anonymous said...

Straight Shot says,
I am a faithful reader of Winston Blackmore's Share the Light newslettersa and he just posted a wonderful statement about his ex-wife Jane. He sounds like he still truly adores her and loves her to bits. I bet he wouldn't like you saying she doesn't give a horses #$%$#% about the people. Shame on you!! Not very sweet or Christlike!!

With his Story of Two Sisters and his desire to get to know his father's youngerst wife Deb and her children better -- she should be considered as well!! After all she and her children belong to Ray Blackmore for all eternity and they should get back into the Blackmore fold and start repenting.

I'll have to work at getting ahold of her and see if she'll consider it. Then Winston can get his wish. He is so caring and loving about orphans over in Kenya even that I bet he'd be more than happy to have Deb get back into the loving arms of the Blackmore family to start repenting.

He could help her work out those issues he mentions that caused her to have a troubled life. May be he's even be able to help sort out the troublesome book she wrote called "Keep Sweet, Children of Polygamy."
YOu could probably contact her on the www.keepsweet.com website and all let her know that she could be forgiven.
Thank God for repentance and forgiveness.

Anonymous said...

Why would anyone want to be a trustee of the UEP? They had better be awfully rich and willing to put their money into the thing in the form of paying the taxes, travel, damage control, court cases, and you name it. Do you think for one minute that Utah will provide funds for paying the taxes? Do you think that Dan Fischer will ante up the million and a half to pay the taxes? Do you think that Warren will have his faithful pay their taxes? I think that Mark Shurtleff is looking for five or seven really stupid people to take hold of this scalding hot potatoe so that they are the ones that are in control of it when it is impossible to fix. Now who is going to help the Debbie Palmers, Jane Blackmores, Carolyn Jessops, Margaret Cookes, or anyone else fix the UEP? Not one flds man in one thousand will help those women, and that is nothing against them, it is just the way that it is. Who would help Winston Blackmore? If he is a good choice and you all want to vote him in, why don't you do him a greater favor and vote him out? The next board of Trustees will have to have God on their side or they will be the biggest bunch of jackasses that the UEP has ever known. It has been run by jackasses long enough, and don't make any mistake about it, Mark Shurtleff and his crew have no love for the UEP.

Perry Mason said...

Where on God's Green Earth did any of you get the idea that you will be allowed to vote for the trustees? The judge is going to appoint new trustees of his choosing.

Anonymous said...

NEW KID ON THE BLOG SAYS:


There is no damn way that this mess with the trust can ever be dealt with in a fair and impartial manner. There is no such thing as a totally unbiased person. PERIOD.


Having been evicted from CC, being former FLDS, and knowing how things work in the FLDS, this is how I believe it should be handled.


I think the Trust should be completely dissovled and the land with homes on it should be given out to the orginal builder, unless they left it voluntarily, or more than 20 years ago. That way, the persons who did the majority of the improvements to the land and/or bulidings would be allowed to benefit from their own hard work. If someone was evicted, and another person moved in to their home, they would be required to either pay rent to the rightful owner, OR move out and find somewhere else to live. If they have lived there for over a year, they must help with the back taxes, unless the improvements that they did to the land are greater than the taxes would be. (Comittee rules on such events.)


In the event that there are two people that have moved to other homes, and they agree to leave it how it is, then it must be done legally under title, and done in complete agreement with both parties.



(Ross and Lori could have their ghetto shop back so they could be free to fill the neighborhood with dead cars, and Steven could have his rightful home returned to him. After all, he paid for and did all the work to it. Ross should feel fine about this, his shop is in much better condition than when he left it, anyway.)


I think that it should be illegal to sell your land, except for fair market value, (which would be determined by a qualified appraisor)and it cant be given away, unless it is given to the offspring or rightful heirs of the original builder. The taxes would be the responsiblity of the owner, not a trust, and the states should re-assess the land to be taxed more fairly.




The only thing that I can see the trust being any good to is the commonly owned or public use buildings. They could make it more fair to all who wish to use those buildings by charging people enough to pay the upkeep on the each individual property. They would also serve as a review board for any disagreements between people on any given property. They will also be called to help the rightful heirs of places like the Erwin Fischer home be dealt with in a fair manner. (The business that Erwin built has been maintained by his sons, and they should keep it as they see fit. I know that some things will have to be agreed on, like Shem Fischer will have a lot to say about this...That is where the Board would come in.) These board positions would be subject to votes cast by RESIDENTS AND OWNERS OF PROPERTY IN CC ONLY!! BC members would have their own commitee, (which they already have and is working great for them.)

People like Dan Fischer who havn't been anything to do with this for years would serve in advice capacity only, and not on any final say board. They are intelligent people and we can benefit from their input, but they are not residents.



In the individual businesses, the person or people that have been paying the bills and seeing to the business staying operational are the rightful owners, anyway, so that takes care of that.

Why in HELL does anyone want to see this trust succeed? It CANNOT be fair, EXCEPT for the original conditions that is was set up in, and we all know those are long gone, never to return.

Does anyone agree with me?

New Kid On The Blog....

HardHeaded said...

Thoughtful plan New Kid. If it can happen, I think it should. I don't want to see original Home Builders paying $80,000 for their lots though, which is probably what would happen. Sure the house is theirs, they(most of them)paid for and built them, but the property they sit on belongs to someone else.

One Idea that pops in my mind is to form an association, much as you have in a gated community. Most of the time, people in these communities don't own the property that their house sits on. They pay a small monthly fee to the association and the association does all the upkeep on the property. I'm not saying it would have to be as strict as a gated community, it can be loose as can be, but this might save people from having a $400 mortgage for the next 30 yrs.

Unless they can get a below market price on their lots of course.

Anonymous said...

Don Timpson
Roger Williams

of Centennial Park?

This sounds awfully complex, as some of these were ousted in the 1980's and my question might be, how far back will this restructured board go to repay those who have lost money from poor control of the trust?

Some have continued to pay taxes or the equal to taxes, while others walked off, so how will equity be determined? Between the pending lawsuits and 30 years of ousted, now apostates, who will decide who get what and how much?

As pointed out here, some see this as an extension of the religion, either Timpsons, Jeffs or Blackmore's, while others have rejected all three! Will religious interest override common sense?

Then there is the question of abuses already documented and laws already broken. If you can decertify Sam Roundy, Rodney Holm, Walter Steed and Vance Barlow, questioning their integrity, should the beneficiaries have to accept less? If someone has committed a crime the same as Warren of taking child brides, should some one of the same crimes charged of Warren, be allowed to sit on such a board without bias? Those who ousted their own sons and abandoned their own daughters who were underage, did they demonstrate individual strength or wisdom to now represent the interest and leadership for all?

Then a point made by MIB in jest we hope, should this be like the indian tribes with members, regardless of whether you sell your own homes, are you still a member? As Beswick pointed out there is developable land near Hildale that has a potential for subdivisions. The apostates are master craftsman and that combination could easily create a land grab for someone with long term vision. The UEP can allow people to bail out and or make a few very rich! Whom on this board has a vision and will be honest enough to state it?

Owning the land beneath may allow some a way out, but leaving to quickly may release the beneficiary interest and future claim, thus what replaces one dictatorial leadership could easily be another.

From family heads, to ousted boys, disenfranchised, apostates, those in Canada, those in Centennial Park and those scattered to the winds, this is a far more complex issue of fairness that will become complicated when church and state clash.

A board of 7 should have 3 to 4 representing former members. There should be a master accountant from outside the group. A attorney preferably one that deals with property rights. Someone with economic development knowledge and last a police dog to bark at both sides when individual ego's clash. Any one who wants to be on this board would have to have an ulterior motive!

Take it from someone on several boards, its a thankless job, unless your dealing from the bottom of the deck. You have to be thick skinned, not afraid to speak your mind, willing to sit on a vote in favor of more research and you need to identify with that hold out juror who goes against the majority. Representing the interest of others over yourself takes leadership qualities that may not exist in a simple vote of popularity.

GOOD LUCK! Someone will need it.

CEO

Anonymous said...

Morning Angel says,
who said the Canadian bountiful people have a good working Committee? where did you get your information??
There is as much pain, confusion, and fear in Bountiful as there is in CC, Hildale or any other place this trust has destroyed lives.
There is no working Committee???
Get your facts straight.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Anon.. 7/03/2005 10:08 AM

I am implying that two men nominated (Richard Holm and George Hammon) not be on this board as it is in their own interest and not of the residents of the UEP.
They are both well known for severely abusing their own children and others.

I would not think Carolyn in her right mind would work with these two men.

And ,Yes she would be an asset to the Trust ,but she has left there and now has the responsibility of her children.I hope that she would want to focus on them and not that which she worked so hard to get out of her life. Her time and focus should be for them.

The other women you mentioned also; that also should be their focus.For them to raise their children to be good, honest, loving citizens in society.

The people that live on the land of the UEP should be some of the Trustees.
And if there are no FLDS board members then...Oh well ...That is their choice. If they were truley concerned about it being "fair" for them, then they would step up.

Thanks for letting me share :)

feralfem said...

Straight Shot.. regarding your post 7/04/2005 4:35 AM

Do you know whether Deb really believes that
"...she and her children belong to Ray Blackmore for all eternity and they should get back into the Blackmore fold and start repenting." or that she has a desire to repent and be forgiven?

Just wondering if it's possible someone who has been "out" as long as she has would still believe or want to get back "in". I've been "out" for some time and I know I wouldn't.

Let us know if you get hold of her and what she says. I wonder if she might consider directly participating on this blog.

Anonymous said...

Deb is already participating on this blog.

ATAR_i said...

As afar as board makeup - having sat on a few - and still sitting one a couple the make up is usually intentionally diverse. This is something that is desired, because oftentimes, individuals have a certain way of looking at things and seeing things, and aren't able to see other angles - diverse memebers make this possible.

Initially, UEP might be better served staying whole for awhile. If you give someone title to their land (and they are faithful) they would probably just donate it again.

What would be nice would be to totally make the living situation separate from religion.

I also believe it's pretty tangled, those who donated property, those that built homes. Each donation will have to be assessed.

I think a different form of housing might be considered as well, for those families who don't or won't have homes for whatever reason, and for single people (pah - they don't exist now - but they might) perhaps some apartment complexes.

Someone might refuse to pay taxes on their land - that would be sad, but the equity they might have in the land would still be something. It's hard to treat people like kids - guardians of their money - but almost necessary.

I think I would set goals.

1. all individuals who have donated to the UEP would have a tally of their contributions (work, building, land etc)

2. no one who has donated to the UEP will be left homeless - alternate housing will be offered if necessary.

3. a plan so that those who remain 'faithful' and are coerced into actions that might not be for their own benefit, that they would be protected to as much of a degree as is possible (a step plan that might last some time).

Anonymous said...

Who is currently caring for the animals at the "zoo"? Are there many left, where did they come from? Are they a consideration in UEP?

Anonymous said...

The zoo is dead and gone. All of Uncle Freds dreams died with him.

Anonymous said...

Atari

That is why I said that the land may NOT be given away, except to rightful heirs and off-spring to the title holder.

And one more question....How would a person prove that he has contributed to the UEP? Most of our donations are in cash or with time spent on building up the community. How are you going to verify that? It would be on the individual's word only, and some people are liars that are here only to get gain.

That's why I believe that people should prove specific residency by utility bills, drivers licences, (FOOD STAMPS!!) birth certificates, etc.!! And if there are any bills or invoices or delivery reciepts from plumbers,contractors, etc, that prove you built the home, that would work, as well.

There is no way to measure the contibutions that anyone has made. People like Allen Steed have given their whole life, time and money, where people like Ross Chatwin are just big talkers, and I have never, ever EVER seen him on a work project. He didn't even build a decent home for himself, he had to steal his brother's!)

Answer that!!

New Kid on the Blog

Anonymous said...

Actually, it happened long before he passed away.

Anonymous said...

Atar:

New Kid is right, although a little confrontational and emotional. You'd think he lost a home or family, or both.

During the summers when I grew up in CC, all of the kids were involved in work projects starting from the age of 8. Every day was spent cleaning up weeds along the road, cleaning up trash around someone's home, repairing fences or corrals. Some of the older kids, 12-15, would get involved with building projects or remodels.

When we got old enough to get paying jobs, we still donated every Saturday to building someone's home. If you helped enough people build their homes, when you saved enough money to build your own you had all the 'free' help you needed.

Most people in CC have spent their lives donating time and I'm sure no receipts were ever kept of the millions in donated money. They believe that God keeps the tally.

Long Time Gone

Faithful Woman said...

Do you really want an answer New Kid? Or do you just want to pick a fight and point fingers?

You obviously think we got what we have unjustly.

I wouldn't mind explaining a thing or two if some one really wanted to know, but I don't like to do a one-up tit for tat with the likes of your present attitude.

ATAR_i said...

Well, even if it's hard, attempts at an accounting of who made donations is going to have to be made - I don't see any other way around it.

However, if you donated land - that's easy to show (change of title), and utilities, and all the things new kid mentions.

I don't think it will be any sort of easy task - and probably some documention will be unobtainable related to age - however, you will have to come up with something - I don't see how it will work otherwise.

For instance if you were forced as a child to work for free - about how many hours per week/month/year were you forced to work without pay. Perhaps for all the effort and years have passed you eventually were given a lot to build your house on (you didn't work enough to quite OWN it, but if you continued to work - it would equal out). Then you built your house on this lot. I'd say - your due would be the house, plus the land.

People who have something invested really need to track down anything in black and white as far as documentation, and as well, all cash and work donations (that might be an estimate).

What I fear, if a precedent of handing of title is too easy. Is that rightful owners will just hand title back to warren - who will then establish another trust.

That is the benefit to having people who are aware (of individuals who have invested more sweat than cash) of the CC society on a board. They can help substantiate or repudiate some of the petitions for ownership.

I don't believe that there is any way that this board will get things perfect, or in any way make things equal - it's just gone on too long generationally - and there are some things that just won't be equitable.

For instance, a female - she might not have had a job to make money so that she could give cash donations, and she probably wasn't out there working on the weekends (because she had children). She can't split the house with her husband, she might have left him - does she get nothing? If she was given to another, then another, does she receive a portion of each's holding?

It's just such a jumbled mess - untangling it is going to be bulky, cumbersome, people will be hurt, mistakes will be made - but at least a committee of people who is trying to do right - will be agreeing that these are the decisions that have to be made.

I did not take offense to New Kid - I'd be raging right now if I was him. His points need to be made - many might exaggerate donations, and some will underestimate them. Someone like New Kid might know more about the truthfullness of the claims.

Faithful Woman said...

You know, some of the points New Kid made are very good points to make, but he has a prejudice obviously against me and mine, who else does he have a grudge against? How can he be a fair judge as to who worked and who didn't?

And for New Kid, Ross was too damned nice to guys who ripped him off so he was left holding bills with no money to pay them with.

But you know what? He isn't just sitting around feeling sorry for himself. He is making an effort to make a success of his life. Of all the famous people who made great things happen, they had many more failures, but they didn't quit. It is called failing forward. There is a book of that title, you should read it.

ATAR_i said...

Faithful is correct - which is another reason that UEP will need to be careful, have accurate information, and members with various backgrounds.

I'm glad faithful stayed with her husband. She gave something to the community that no one prior to her was able to. She gave herself as an example. No one showed that kind of bravery - especially women.

I wonder what made you different faithful - what was it that enabled you to do that when so many before you could not? Anyhow - I'm impressed.

Faithful Woman said...

Most of the women who wanted to stay with their men up and left the community all together, with their families. They didn't want the pressure of family telling them that their man was evil and they should leave him.
we even made an attempt to leave but in the end, God has a work for us here.
Then there are those who begged their husbands to let them stay but the men told them that it was but a test and to do what the prophet said and they would be stronger for it. Little did they know. It was a test alright, but man made, and not from God.

Oh yeah, one man said that it was because I wasn't "taught" right by my father, so some of the blame was there too. Thanks Dad.

Plus, (wink) I didn't like the selection Warren had to offer.

onthestreet said...

You wink yourself into a bottomless pit.

ATAR_i said...

whooooooo? Oh c'mon - tell me who?

Faithful Woman said...

who which?

ATAR_i said...

the one that he had in mind for you

fttc said...

faithful
street made a pass at atar on another thread and now she is REALLY curious

ATAR_i said...

"the selection"

ATAR_i said...

NO nononono, I want to know who warren had picked out for faithful. What would I be curious about OTS about?

ATAR_i said...

what does fftc stand for

I am curious - just not about *that*

onthestreet said...

Well, you never knew you were a polygamist goddess until you learned it from me (at least the nickname you've chosen). Want to know more?

ATAR_i said...

I'm good - thanks. I'll admit I chose a name that happens to be similar to one that is in the Bible - but we have to realize - it's not exact - and it was meant as an acronym. If you can make me a polygamist from that - I can sure see Rulon as making the o-ring malfunction with a much smaller leap.

fttc said...

Yours has been a very polite and decent curiousity too. I saw that post on the other thread and couldn't resist.

fttc-Faithful To The Cause

fttc said...

And a quick wit! I liked that about the leap.

ATAR_i said...

OK - just didn't want anyone to be thinkin' I was 'thinkin' on our dear old friend - unthinkable

what leap? OR did you say that just to make me curious

ATAR_i said...

ooooh and before I forget - what cause?

OK - I AM CURIOUS

fttc said...

the polygamist and the o-ring

fttc said...

NOT WARREN'S!!!

The Cause of Christ.

ATAR_i said...

You sounded to sane to be part of warrens (I cannot bear to capitalize his name - so I don't) group.

heaving a nice sigh of relief

OK - I totally forgot about the leap - as well as being curious - that short term memory must be another of my issues.

Faithful Woman said...

ftts

I thought you said that ment: fallen through the cracks

atari, I didn't go so far as to see who warren would dig up for me. I was curious too, but didn't want to find out at the cost of moving into some dumpy trailer and getting on foodstamps.
the quote was "go to the bishop for a place to stay and for your support". Now, that was before Uncle Fred was spirited away. I really liked Uncle Fred and I like to think that I was one of his favorite people, so maybe I would have lucked out and gotten something better. But not likely. I also didn't want to burden him more with sad cases.

Curious in C.C. said...

Lori,Does You know anything about the Eastern Groups?Are they for Warren?or Winston?Who is their spokesman?I heard it was Joseph H.Musser?But Joeseph H.Musser is in the Naylor Group?

ATAR_i said...

Did you respond to them Lori - or did you just stay, and let that be the response. And where did your courage come from? I am guessing you must be close with your husband.

onthestreet said...

ATAR_i said...
You sounded to sane to be part of warrens (I cannot bear to capitalize his name - so I don't) group.

WARREN! WARREN! WARREN! WARREN! WARREN! WARREN! WARREN! WARREN!

onthestreet said...

Atar Said: OK - I totally forgot about the leap - as well as being curious - that short term memory must be another of my issues.

See. It's called a brain malfunction, due to the strangling cobwebs of the mind. Get that in good working order, and you'll come out okay.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, so you're all "Curious" now.
Imjustcurious.

ATAR_i said...

You mean an AVM - that's a malformation - not a malfunction.

onthestreet said...

Hey, it looks like you two girls are trying to work something out here. I'll restrain myself, and leave you alone.

Faithful Woman said...

I went on a trip to New York with my husband, and let that be my answer. Still, some were not sure.

ATAR_i said...

I love New York, I wish I could have spent more time there. What part did you go to?

Faithful Woman said...

Lets see, we went to Niagra Falls for sure. The first time we were there 5 years ago we went to Long Island. I wasn't very impressed with Manhattan Island, but New Jersy was nice and New York itself had some really nice woodsy drives.

Anonymous said...

Faithful Woman,We heard that most of the Easterners and All of the South-Eastern Sub-Groups are more for Winston,Not Suprisingly,When you consider most of these folks left Salt-Lake over "One Man Rule"

Eastern Group said...

I will comment on the so-called Southeastern sub-group.On the border of Tenn.and North Ga.It was erroneously reported to be a pro-
Warren colony on this blog.This is not true.The So-called Tennesee-GA.-Florida,splinter group is really just 3 related clans.Most are Ranchers,or Farmers.The 3 main clans are Allred,Wooley and Trentholm.Some of these families in this so-called group are closley related to the leading families of the Flds.But are also just as closely related to the
A.U.B and Naylor groups.To claim a Warrenite sympathy among them is just ridiculous.In fact there are probably more anti-Warren than any other branch of fundamentalist Mormon people.

ATAR_i said...

I loved New Jersey as well. We went to the island in the evening - had a friend who was a real east coast girl and showed me around, dinner at the Tribeca Grill it was pretty fun.

ATAR_i said...

Are you FLDS and polygamous as well then?

Eastern Groups said...

Descended from Polygamy,Atari,not practicing.Only one family is even sympathetic to polygamy.One of the Trentholm sons.

Ga.Tapestry Monitor said...

I monitor this group for Tapestry of Polygamy.Dont believe that white-wash Atari,these folks are polygamists.
But not Warrenite Flds.The Trentham
{Not Trentholm,mind you}son mentioned is Uncle Jeffs
B.Trentham ,he is aligned with Winston Blackmore.
Two of his wives
are Angela dtr.of Joseph H.Musser , another wife Laura ,is reputedly a Jensen .But these folks
are capititalists,not United Order
type of Mormons.Very,very successful farmers and ranchers.Even I ,who am not their fan,cannot believe these folks would ever join Warren.

fttc said...

faithful
I had fallen through the cracks but I am faithful to the cause. An attitude change I suppose.

Anonymous said...

Faithful;

I don't especially have a grudge against you or Ross. I just get so sick of you on the news and all over this blog spewing your OPINIONS around as FACTS!

The fact is, Ross built that shop, and he should be allowed to reposess it. Steven built the home, and he should be allowed to have it to himself, not sharing it with you.

You have to admit that you have made some very scathing and opinionated remarks about a lot of people that you really know nothing about. I just felt that the nice folks that read this blog should have a few more facts added to clarify the picture.(Things that you had inadvertantly omitted....)

I am in the same boat that you are in. I was evicted also. I know that there are issues that need addressed, and I don't agree with the BS that goes on out there, either! But for hell sakes, girlfriend, be nice to the innocent! Your poop stinks too, in case you didn't notice!

I happen to be a very nice, funny, happy and sensible person, but when I see the innocent people getting hurt, I just get pissed. (I know that my posts have hit mighty damn close to dead center a couple of times, and I meant for them to sting....now you know how it feels!)

Just play fair and and Auntie New Kid won't have to bitch you out, ok? (Oh, yes! I am female, does that surprise you?)



New Kid on the Blog

P.S. you said did I want to pick a fight? NO honey. I would never have a battle of wits with an un-armed person. My sense of fair play would not allow it!!!

ATAR_i said...

OK - I am suprised your female - you have such fight inside you. I didn't think that FLDS fostered that - have you been out long?

Secondly, Lori sees things from her perspective and the way things have been for her. Someone who is quite lovely to you - might have been quite hideous to her. Does that mean that the person is not hideous, or that her experience is a lie - because others have been treated kindly? No, her experience IS what it IS.

She cannot know anything else as truth - any more than you can. We are a product of our experiences. And, even people who experience the same thing - don't even see it the same way.

SO, please stop trying to tell Faithfull NOT to tell her story, that HER experiences are lies, and that she should be ashamed of them.

I, as an outsider find her willingness to stay with her husband brave, to be known by name even braver (I'm not that brave - and neither are you).

If you can put a name to your posts - specifically YOUR name - like Lori does, I think you might vocalize differently. Everything she says, she is accountable for - people know she said it. You, you can say anything you like - and no one knows who you are - why hold back. Would you behave the same if we knew YOUR name - would your courage be SO STRONG? I doubt it.

SO, try not to be so harsh.

Anonymous said...

Get your facts straight new girl kid. Dave Chatwin built the house originally. Steve added to it. Uncle Marvin, father of them all financed it. Those boys probably owe him every cent of it's value. Now whose house is it?

Anonymous said...

Atar;

I have no issues with the fact that Lori stayed with Ross. I totally admire the fact that she stayed true to her convictions.

My issue is the way she takes innocent people who have been inquired about and smears them with her warped opinion and then the world sees it her lopsided way.One good example is in her portrayal of Kate. She said one thing that was sort of nice, but she just HAD to put a jab in there. Kate is already hurting. Why pour lemon juice on her wounds? For hell sakes! And what she said about Heidi, that was just pure spite, and very painful to her at that. She doesn't have any idea how much pain she causes. I just thought she should get a little idea.

What's wrong with my having a rebuttal? Why cant I say what I think about what she is saying? If you have such a fair outlook on this blog, then why are you having a problem with my input?


Oh, and I notice that YOU haven't put YOUR name up in public, either! The fact that she put hers out there is HER choice. That is YOUR choice. I respect yours. I feel that you should respect mine.


And if you are just now finding out that women from CC are strong, then your are obviously totally misinformed about the women out there. Can you imagine what kind of strength it takes to live like that?

From reading your posts, I think you would actually find a lot of kindred spirits in the plig women. They are amazing people.

ATARI, I have actually respected your input and agreed with a lot of what you had to say on this blog, but if the only slant you have on how things are out there is colored by Lori only, and you dont want to hear another view, then maybe you are not as unbiased as you would like to think you are.

When I lived in CC I actually defended Lori quite a few times. I treated her and her family with respect and was kind to them at all times. I bought essential oils from her mom, and I have no problem with Lori as a person. I just think that she should choose her victims a little more carfully, because the whole world is reading this blog. She didn't seem to like the sort of treatment that she regularly dealt out to others, so maybe she should just try to stick with VERIFIABLE FACTS!

Is there anything wrong with that?

New Kid on the Blog

Anonymous said...

This is why the U.E.P. will never be settled.New Kid has a grudge against the Chatwins.Typical,grudges are more common in this town than plural marriages.Always have been.
Eastern Groups?Give me a break!
the few eastern and southeastern polygamists are more of a myth.Like the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.Only a few families in number.Not a an Flds off-shoot.More of an off-shoot of the
Missouri Naylor Group.

Curious in C.City said...

Who made Lori the authority on Colorado City?The Press,New kid,if you have more information,Come forward by all means.I think all opinions may be valid,but this sniping at one another on the blog.is both un productive and just
what the Warrenites want.BTW,Opinions are not facts.

fttc said...

I have read this blog from the getgo and I have never felt like Faithful Woman was an authority on anything. If people are naive enough to take anything posted as the truth without some cross examination then I don't think they will be convinced beyond thier own opinions anyway. Lori is popular with the press because she is willing to talk. If someone sees things differently and they have the courage she has they can go to the press and give their version. The press would like another side to this. So far there is no one willing to defend warren publicly. I know new kid is not with warren but it seems she has not been willing to talk to the press either. Am I wrong here? It sounds as if the "my family's better than yours" attitude has followed some of us. Proof that we never get away from ourselves.

Anonymous said...

OHHHHHHH NO YA DONT!!!

If there is ANYTHING that I stand for in this world, it is this.

NO HUMAN BEING IS CREATED ABOVE ANOTHER!

I was taught from birth by my beautiful and extremely intelligent FLDS mother, that the ONLY thing that makes a person inferior is the way that they treat others. And NO ONE can make you FEEL inferior unless you give them your permission!!!

The only reason that I haven't tried to get the press to listen to me, is that I have seen what they do to people that try to be fair. They crucify them and twist their words to make sensational stories that sell more newspapers. The press is not where people that just want to be heard go. This blog is a much easier way to say what you want to say.

I have actually tried to get a meeting with Mark Shertliff, but I have not been successful in contacting him. I am still trying.If anyone wants to give me any info on how to set up a meeting, I would be much obliged. At least I would have given my input, and then they could decide what to do with what I tell them.


And to the Naylor Group...

You are dead wrong.I totally adore the Chatwins!! Charlotte (Ross's mom) has been one of my dearest friends for years! Lori,(another of Ross's moms) has some facinating theories that have intrigued me ever since I was a little kid. And Uncle Marv...He is an absolute gem. Like I said, I only attacked the bad behavior, and I have no animosity toward Ross and Lori. I think they would be absolutly shocked if they knew who I was. I believe that they respect me as a person. I just feel that they should focus the attention of the world on the real issues, and stop slinging mud. I was just pointing out that the have a butt too, and so they shouldn't bare other people's butts. (People who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.)

Faithful, I hope you get the point. Be nice to people who are already wounded. It hurts, doesn't it.



New Kid on the Blog

Anonymous said...

Exactly fttc.Carolyn Jessop,Margret
Cooke,Don Timpson,Ray Timpson,what can possibly qualify any of these people to be trustees of U.E.P.?Settling up of old scores?I think it would be better for the trust just to be dissovled.Such trustees
would only lead to the same old factionalism and nepotism we have lived with for so long.Why not put in some trustees with no connection
to the community?some non-partison preferably non-biased people not related to any Flds.Preferably some Business people with no ties to the community.Make them strictly accountable for the decisions for their actions.No trustees with any ties to the community can be objective.

Eastern Group said...

I stand corrected New Kid.didnt mean you any harm.Uncle Marvin and family have always been well thought of here as well.

Anonymous said...

I think that the only reason Lori put her name on the blog was because it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who she was in the first place, and secondly, she is really enjoying the attention that she gets from it.

onthestreet said...

I'm sure you all mean well in what you say and do. Sometimes, oftentimes, it just doesn't come out the way you meant it, or it gets interpreted wrongly. Then you get wrongly accused.

Love conquers all. Just don't ignore the truth in your loving. I for one can take a huge dose of what I preach.

fttc said...

New Kid

Thanks for clarifying yourself. I really meant no offense if you took it that way. I was trying to give some input as it looked like you were getting a little harsh with words. I also meant no harm to Lori either with the authority comment. As Atar mentioned earlier, we all have our experiences which affect our perspective. And yes opinions are not necessarily facts. Now I'll stop before I choke on my foot.

Anonymous said...

The AG office will have representatives in CC this Friday to meet with anyone interested in the future of the Trust. Not sure where the meeting will be held, but I believe it will begin at about 11:00 a.m.

This would be a good opportunity to give input about how the Trust should be managed in the future and about who would make a good trustee.

Now, who will be at the meeting? Any FLDS? Probably not, and that's not good. It's one thing to sit on the sideline and complain. It's another thing to get invovled.

ATAR_i said...

I don't want to see anyone hurt either, which is why I responded to the stuff about Lori.

I don't want any women to feel worse about themselves - and you probably are right - they are stronger than I had imagined

Now, how does that strength not translate to more actions like those of Lori? Why have more women not stayed?

New Kid - do you still live in CC?

Anonymous said...

Atari

No, I was evicted. My family is still close to each other, even though many of us are evicted.

And just because so many of the women have not chosen to stay with their husbands, it is not a reflection of a lack of strength. They really believe that they are doing what God requires of them. And believe me, it takes more strength and walking hand in hand with God than most of us have!

I know it sounds warped, but that is really how it is. Besides, the men believe God is testing their testimonies, and they wont let the women stand with them. Most of them have this incomprehensible belief that if they pass this test, they will have all their blessing restored to them. It defies all logic, but that is how it is.

New Kid On the Blog

Anonymous said...

To whoever implied that Richard Holm and George Hammon were "both well known for severely abusing their own children and others" - tell us what you know. I know Richard Holm and I find it hard to believe.

ATAR_i said...

New Kid

One think I have intentionally kept slightly under my belt is that I grew up slightly right wing of conventional. I left, and much of thing imploded. However, a small - but growing group (into the thousands now) still exists and I DO have family in it. It has driven even further to the right.

Everything that was wrong about how I was raised is magnified many times over in the FLDS.

It does take someone strong, convinced, and driven, any church machine tends to spew out the weaker ones and feels thrilled about losing the dead weight. I saw strength in my sister I never dreamed existed when she was pushed to her limit - she got out to. None of us have ever been the same.

I suppose I understand what you are talking about now. My sister was *not* the strong kind, but it was just survival. I was like rawhide - tough as nails and driven. And, something even funnier - I dressed a bit like you all (I called it my 'sound of music' dress). I still have the dresses to this day - and my friends cannot believe I wore them (I kept every last one).

Perhaps that is what has stuck in my craw about your group, and why I seem to be here day after day. It is something I can relate to (albeit only slightly) I can still wrap my fingers around some of the rationale for certain actions if I just think back.

Anonymous said...

Atari

I had no idea! No wonder you are so passionate about this! But let me throw this thought out there for you to condsider. The compassionate human being that you are today is a result of the sum total of the experiences that you have had in your past. Your strength, your ideals, your complete belief system is all due to all your past experiences, good or bad.

What part of who you are would you want to give up? Although your expericence was not a pleasant one, you and your sister found strength and a fire for life that perhaps you would not have, if you hadnt been through the war.

It is not the experiences that makes us who we are, but rather how we choose to use the knowledge gained by them. But how would we have that knowledge, if we didn't have the experience?

The fact that you have chosen a career in the healing arts shows you posess a wonderful human compassion for others, and because you have suffered yourself, it qualifies you even more to assist those in your care.

Our responsibility then, is to help those who want it, but allow people to make their choices as we were allowed to make ours. Sometimes it is like you said, like busting out of something, but if they dont want to, then that is their choice.

If there is law-breaking being committed, then that should be investigated and addressed by those who have the authority to do so. I know that there have been some instances where blatant disregard for the law has happened, but there is also a massive exaggeration in a lot of cases, as well. This needs to be handled in a legal manner by those with the capacity to do so, not by an emtionally charged witch hunt.

How you and I can help is by educating people how to take ACCOUNTABILITY in their lives, and not by handing them a crutch. (Telling the Lost Boys that they are crippled because their life sucks, and they dont have an education or a family is not going to empower them.)

I dont want to get carried away here, but if you wish, you may e-mail me at new_kid_ontheblog@yahoo.com


New Kid on the Blog


P.S have you thought about WHY you kept all your dresses? There may be something there for you to consider.....

onthestreet said...

Most of them have this incomprehensible belief that if they pass this test, they will have all their blessing restored to them. It defies all logic, but that is how it is.
New Kid On the Blog
7/07/2005 12:09 AM

My Man (sorry, Kid): It's historical, it's doctrinal, and it is also conditional, is it not.

Faithful Woman said...

Sorry ladies, I didn't post my name. Some one "out'ed" me.
But then, oh well.

And if you don't like me on tv, I would gladly give you the air time. It isn't something I look forward to.

As for why I am on this blog. A friend recomended it to me and I got addicted. It is interesting most of the time (my oppinion), and it gives me a place to comunicate with other people who have had similar experiences and some who just want to know. I never said that my oppinions were were cold, hard facts. The only reason folks would think that my view was the only one is because it took you so long to say your piece.

And I didn't say anything about anyone that I didn't know. Whether it be well or slight.

I know, well, knew Kate. I like her. And her hair is red. And my Mom is a red head personality too so I figured I had the right to make that oppinion. In any other atmosphere other than the "be ye perfectly sweet or be ye damned" one, a redhead comment would have just been winked at. It had always been a joke my grandpa's family about the redheads.

And Heidi? Is she on line? Good for her!

And I have been so long quiet that there will be no stopping me now. LOL, my school class would have never guessed that the shyest kid in the class would end up being the most world-wide vocal.

Wanting attention? ha ha I would way rather be rich than famous.

I am definately not the spokesperson for this town, cc. Just for me. If new kid wants more oppinions posted, then by all means do it.

rumor-has-it said...

I think the world of Richard Holm, he has been a great voice of reason on the town council and he has learned alot in the last couple years.

Anonymous said...

Someone will have a problem about every single person nominated to serve on the board...I know, because I worked at the Radio Station in CC and there wasn't a song that someone didn't have an opinion on.
The idea is to get a board of Trustees that will answer and help. And get the people that are in denial off.

By the way, I miss the Radio Station. I think it would be a good idea to get another one going that could play some real music, not just hymns. Any ideas?

ATAR_i said...

Thanks new kid. I kept my dresses because 1. I save everything - I'm a sentimental mushball 2. There was something so unbelievably sweet and naive about them 3. No one would believe I wore them if I didn't keep them. My children now use them for dress up.

A radio station sounds like a great idea!

onthestreet said...

You kept them, but don't wear em?
Tat makes you naked, and sentimental naked to boot. I guess that makes you puss and boots, in a bowl of mush. Help! There's a woman in my soup!

Anonymous said...

You creep.

ATAR_i said...

yeah - that is creepy

onthestreet said...

Nah, worms and little critters creep along. I stride like a lady, if you will.

ATAR_i said...

To a gal OTS, you have a high creepy factor. When I talk about keeping my dresses, you talk about me being naked - that's like one large twisted leep - a twisted creepy leep.

Anonymous said...

Atari leave Street alone!Dont you know he is lonlely without KATHLEEN?

Anonymous said...

Street said "I stride like a lady' That's it, His sin is He's gay

ATAR_i said...

I don't think lonliness = creepiness. So I'm not going to take it back : )

"The Lost Lads" said...

Atari will you please contact US?If we send you our e-mail?We could use your help!New kid on the Bolg,We would like to have your input as well.How about it.Fttc. will you please help as well?

Anonymous said...

Lost Lads,

Email me at new_kid_ontheblog@yahoo.com

New Kid

ATAR_i said...

you can email me at

atar_i@hotmail.com

fttc said...

Email me at fttcrack@hotmail.com

Anonymous said...

what about the longtime concern that Richard Holm was involved with illicet drugs coming out of the creek.

Honestly ask yourself if you havent't heard that before. Do you Really want someone like that on the new UEP trust board of trustees

onthestreet said...

Email me at everylostsoulacounselor.scum