Friday, July 08, 2005

Details on becoming a UEP trustee

New trustees sought for the property arm of the FLDS Church
A judge on July 21 will appoint replacements for those stripped of power last month

By Pamela Manson
The Salt Lake Tribune

Utah and Arizona authorities are looking for new trustees to oversee a trust that controls much of the property in a polygamous community.

The current trustees of the United Effort Plan (UEP), an arm of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, were stripped of their power last month by a state judge who determined they had failed to protect the fund's assets. And on July 21, another jurist, Judge Deno Himonas of Utah's 3rd District Court, will consider appointing replacements.

Individuals interested in nominating trustees - either themselves or others - have until Monday to file a petition with the court and publish a notice of the nomination.

Interested parties can make comments on any proposed trustees at or before the July 21 hearing.

The UEP controls nearly all the homes and property in the twin communities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., headquarters of the FLDS, which embraces plural marriage as one of its central tenets. A request for new trustees was filed in May by the Utah Attorney General's Office.

The request, joined by the Arizona Attorney General's Office, alleges the then-trustees failed to stop questionable transactions that appeared to be an attempt to liquidate UEP property. There are three pending lawsuits that name the fund and FLDS President Warren Jeffs as defendants. The trustees and Jeffs are not defending themselves against those suits and could lose by default, which means the plaintiffs could get damages that might deplete the fund and potentially cost residents their homes.

Two petitions naming potential trustees have been filed. The first nominates Winston Blackmore, Margaret Cook, Carolyn Jessop, Rayo S. Johnson, John Nielsen, Don Timpson, Lee Van Dam and Roger Williams. The second nominates the same people, plus George R. Hammon, Merrill J. Harker and Richard L. Holm.

A notice of the hearing will be published in newspapers in St. George, Utah; Eldorado, Texas; Cortez, Colo.; and Creston, British Columbia. A copy of the June 22 order suspending the current trustees also can be viewed at http://attorneygeneral .utah.gov/highprofileissues.htm (click on United Effort Plan Lawsuit).

pmanson@sltrib.com

-Proposed FLDS trustees

Proposed trustees for the United Effort Plan, an arm of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints:

* Winston Blackmore, 48, a former FLDS bishop in Canada. A current trustee, he supports removing the others and wants re-appointment.

* Margaret Cooke, 45, a former FLDS member thrown out in 1994 because she no longer followed the faith.

* George R. Hammon, a Colorado City resident who was among those who sued the UEP in the 1980s.

* Merrill J. Harker, a Hildale, Utah, resident who was among dissidents who sued the UEP in the 1980s.

* Richard L. Holm, an expelled former business leader in the polygamous community.

* Carolyn Jessop, a plural wife who fled from Colorado City, Ariz., home of the FLDS, two years ago.

* Rayo Johnson, a founder of the polygamous community. Johnson, who is in his 80s, was told by FLDS officials to leave but refused.

* John Nielsen, a Salt Lake City resident who was expelled from the FLDS Church.

* Don Timpson, a Colorado City resident who is affiliated with Centennial Park and was among those who sued the UEP in the 1980s.

* Lee Van Dam, a property manager and expert in real estate with no ties to the FLDS.

* Roger Williams, a former resident of Colorado City who is now associated with the Centennial Park, Ariz., group that still supports plural marriage.


sltrib.com
Originally published July 8, 2005

76 comments:

Anonymous said...

UPDATE
JULY 5, 2005
Petitioners Donald B. Cox, James N. Pipkin, and Merrill Harker, by and through their undersigned counsel, and pursuant to the order entered by the above-entitled Court on June 22, 2005, hereby give notice that they have filed a petition whereby they propose that the Court appoint new trustees for the United Effort Plan Trust as follows: Robert C. Huddleston, Craig L. Booth, and Gregory A. Kemp.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe someone would nominate an S O B like George Hammon. The person who nominated him must think there is something to gain personally to elevate a person of George's personality. HE is one mean guy. Just ask his family. Oh yeah, never mind. Mum's the word in that family.

Anonymous said...

So these men that are supposed to be so mean, yet they should be able to do a better job than Warren. Why are we so worried? Anybody is better than King Warren.

Anonymous said...

I think that George Hammon would know and remember what his father intended the UEP to be. I think that Richard Holm would remember what his father wanted the UEP to be. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. All you who want to dig into the lives of other men, go look in the mirror and fix your own.

Faithful Woman said...

The idea isn't to create another king, it is to be a board of trustees. It doesn't matter what you think of the nominated people in their private home life. The question is, would they make good trustees, would they be as fair as they could be under the circumstances.
There is no way to please all of the people all of the time. There will inevitably be some one who is dissatisfied.

Anonymous said...

Who are Robert C. Huddleston, Craig L. Booth, and Gregory A. Kemp?

Anonymous said...

I see, so in other words, it does not matter what a person does or how abusive he is, Just so you do not look to close. What a gig you people have going. What a gig. I will quote, FAITHFUL WOMEN,: "it does not matter what you think of the nominated people in there private home life" what a gig you theifs have going. What a gig. It does not matter! I thought that is what your bitch was, you did not want to be abused. what a gig you people have. PUBLIC THEIFS! You know in the book of MOrman days they had a name for people like you. It was called Gidiantion robbers. And Margret olds? Do you supose she smokes like her freinds. The California Pot. On the desert they use the pot to cook stew in. But some can purchase a green card and Smoke the herb, and it is legal. WHAT A GIG YOU THEIFS HAVE. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO LEGALIZE THIS MARAJANA TOO. WHAT A GIG YOU THEIFS HAVE. jUST WHAT ARE YOU FAITHFUL TOO, FAITHFUL? CANTAMINATION?

Anonymous said...

Shut up!Ruth,I swear what you think
you know would do a world of harm,if anybody listened.

Anonymous said...

JOURNAL OF DISCOURSE BOOK NINE,
We found the same doctrine held good in Illinois, and the same principle has been carried out precisely by the action of the General Government towards us. I was told at Washington that if we were not Mormaons, we should be hailed with generosity and friendship: and the prestige of having subdued this country and brought it into use would have placed us foremost in the rank of territories. But we were "Mormons." These are the sentiments, the spirit, and the feeling all over the country and with the government. We look at this matter as it is. The General Government is not going to donate land to us, while thay were ready to give the settlers in Oregon six hundred and forty acres of land each, half as much for their wives, and a quarter as much for each one of their children. Oregon is located on the seaboard, possessing the advantage of large navigable rivers. It has a flourishing commerce growing up, providing the people with exchanges at comparatively little cost. Utah is in the heart of the desert. It requires persons of the most undaunted courage and energy to possess it at all. Then, why not give them a chance to occupy the land? Why not encourage the settlers of Utah, to reward them for their energy and toil in reclaiming a desert, by giving them six hundred and forty acres of land apeiece? Because "they are damned Mormaons!" Kentucky is observing the same. She is a powerful State: She may be drawn into the great bortex of war; She may take sides with the North or with the South, or most likely be divided on both sides; but she is no more in connection with the General Government, as it is called, than the Tennesssee or Virginia. Turmoil and mob power rule. They are destroying each other, demolishing public improvements' printing presses have been destroyed in MIssouri and most other States. Blackstone says that a press that publishes fasehood and licentiousness is a nuisance, and that all corporations should have power to abate it.
We will now speak of our mountian home. The Lord has smiled upon these valleys. Colonel Fremont was in the Bear river Valley in August, 1843, when the mercury stood at 29 degrees, showing conclusively that grain could not be ripened here. People in the States would pick up that report and say, "everything will freese to feath there." A few years passed away, and you find eight or nine hundred families of Saints in Cache Valley, and they can raise the finest wheat, flax, and wool.
so we will adjust ourselves according to the lawful doings of the nation, and will not secede from our Government; neither will we be traitors to Jesus Christ, through ungodly rulers, but will take the privilege to chasten them and guide them into the path of right, if they will be led therein. This we will do fearlessly and perfectly regardless of consiquences; for, if God is for us, it matters little who are against us. It seems that the people ought to see that the Lord dictates, guides, and directs; that if a peole are blessed, they are blessed of the Lord; and that if we exalt him and his kingdom, love him, serve him, and build up Zion upon the earth, we are sure to be exalted and possess the thing we desire, if our affections are centerd in God and truth. "Therefore let no man glory in man, for all things are yours, wheather Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours, and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's. God bless the humble and the righteouse, and may he have compassion uopon us because of the weakness that is in our nature. And considering the great weakness and ignorance of mortals, let us have mercy upon each other. How it would rejoice my heart to see the most froward, young and old, in this community, forsake their evil doings and seek to do right! But if they will not do this, I cannot fellowship them. My constant prayer is for the Lord to increase the righteouse and righteouseness in the land, and waste away the ungodly, that the power of the government may pass into the hands of the just. May God soon grant this sight to our eyes. Amen

GBNF said...

If someone makes bad choices in their personal life, they will make bad choices for the UEP. Take George Hammon who beat up his wives and children. Margret Cooke married to a man that went to jail for molesting her children, and once released brought him back into her home. Richard Holm...where do you start. Some of ya'll get offended by bring up these people's bad life choices, but if they are going to be making choices for others, shouldn't they be reviewed? I am sure there are enough people without questionable motives to become UEP trustees.

Anonymous said...

To anonymous 5:20
I believe all three of those gentlemen are Utah attorneys. I'm not sure what their interest would be in the case, or whether they can be impartial. Interesting choices.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Anon
To anonymous 5:20
I believe all three of those gentlemen are Utah attorneys. I'm not sure what their interest would be in the case, or whether they can be impartial. Interesting choices.

7/08/2005 10:36 PM


If you are talking about Robert C. Huddleston, Craig L. Booth, and Gregory A. Kemp then NO THEY ARE NOT ATTORNEYS

I was at the meeting this morning and one was the Dean of Dixie State College and I can't remember the positions of the other 2. But they were NOT attornys. I just remember that they sounded like men of credibility and intellegence. How or why they were nominated, I don't know. But I can pretty much assure you that they are NOT Utah attorneys. Considering that they are also NOT UEP or FLDS men, then they exude impartiality.

That's what you all want, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

No, the greedy want the money. The anti Christ want to stop the worship of Christ. The liers want to lie. Each has their own agenda. Who is it that gets rich from War? Who is happy in war? Who is satisfied with riches, that do not turn and try to take more. Who then is but happy, but those who feel eternal joy? Who then is happy, but those who carry love in there hearts? Can your money make you happy? Can your stuff feed your soul? Only love can satisfy a man. Who can take his brothers joy and fill himself? Power? Who has power, in king Benjiman, he says If you serve your fellow beings you are only in the service of christ. If you spend all your days in his service can you repay God for all he hath given you? In the first place he hath given you life. All he asked for in return, is that you love your neighbor as you love yourself. First, love God with all your heart, might, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. Who of you would feel good with your faults spread? Why then contend with your brothers weaknesses? And say these destroyers have their way and think they break up the trust. Does it put power into their hands? Will it bring them joy? Say you get what ever you want, who ever you are: Will it fill your heart with love? Who can do his brothers work? The prophacys have already been wrote. YOu can not undo it. War is upon our nation. England was bombed not long ago. War is upon us. Why is it that other countrys hate American's? Why is it that our flag was burned in hurricane? It is written, You hear of war and rumor of war, but little do you know the hearts of men in your own country. Zion built city's. Zion in her glory, built kingdoms and war is upon us. It is written, Zion will feed nations. Women and children will flee to the rockie mountians, for peace and protection. In Zion there will be the only people who will not pick up the sword one against another, and a few people think to userp athority and shoot their own foot. I say, I believe what the prophets wrote. I did not write it. Joeseph translated it. It is written upon the sky. It is written in the wheather. It is written in the lips of traitors. Greedy people who would cause the destruction of thousands for a bit of greed. I say what have you done to promote peace. We are a nation that is at war. Our souldiers went over across a desert sand trumping all the glory and pride of americans. Who then is winning. America is loseing. OUr souldiers are comeing home to be buried. Our souldiers are scattered across the world. More men are transported daily. Our congress is divided why they battle over peoples rights to worship God. That is what america is founded on. The liberty of all. Yet ever day you fight over soil, that God gabe to all men. The drought has came back upon the land. The hurricans come. Tidal waves come. our country is in turmoil. every day americans bury there own. One man here. one man there. We have no promise of life, but what God does give. Why waste the preciouse moments of life fighting over things. Who do you know that takes things with them, tho men will bury stuff with themselfs. war and lies are terrible things. Who gave you your country? Our fathers who battled the wind and elements so you could sit and push buttons. Have you then built like your fathers? What is an inheritance? Can you garuntee you will inherit a spot upon the earth for eternity. Are you only looking to the glory of this world. This is a terrestial world. This is a place where you are put with saint and sinner, to make your choices. You chose Jesus then, before this life, he gave you life. he gave you an opertunity to find out who God is and how to become like him. Do you love the giver more than the gift? This is not a battle over land. God gave the earth. In the beginning he created man, both female and male. He gave you life. he put every comfort upon the earth for you. All you have he gave you. and you would hate and fight. Can you say you will own your car tomorrow? Can you say your house will still be yours? Can you say your children will love you forever? Can you say you will continue on forever in love? The F.B.I. does seek an inacent man. To perpetuate controle over people. The GReedy people think to get rich. Where is our riches then? It is in our hand. If we work and continue to pay our tax. If we manage to excape the liers? If we live another day. If God favors us and sends us our blessings, Yet there is no shame in death. All men die, but will you take your love or your hate? There is no shame in being poor, Yet is there any honor in lies? Can robbery bring an abundance of joy? And yet, God gave it all to you in the beginning. What did he ask of you? That you love each other. Is that too difficult? What glory ownership. Ownership is responsibility. The beggers on the street have more honor in honsety than the one who would steal. A collage man can not teach who God is unless he is a godly man. Take God out of any nation and any constitution and you have a godless people. And impartiality can never give knowlede of who God is and how to become like him. You must remember it is the ones who have had great glory in the media that would steal our land. What do we want: The same rights all americans have. The right to worship god according to our own dictates. We have had a battle in court for forty years and before, when the question of the court was what church you were in. People who picked up the sowrd against our prophet were bought in the courts to save their family and they turn against there birthright. We are Ephrimite! can land take it. Can money give it. You were born with your heratige and you woud sell your right for a place to sit upon your place, because of geliousy and greed. All men die. All men live. god gave all an equal op0rtunity. There is more honor to die honestly, than to die in riches, filth and greed.

GBNF said...

They are members of a law firm. (duh!)

GBNF said...

Oh, and Ruth, Leanne called...your kids miss you!

Anonymous said...

And the FBI now wants Warren

Anonymous said...

what about the longtime concern that Richard Holm was involved with illicet drugs coming out of the creek.

Honestly ask yourself if you havent't heard that before. Do you Really want someone like that on the new UEP trust board of trustees

7/09/2005 12:43 AM

Anonymous said...

Richard Holm was involved with the mafia, too. Everyone knows that. He fled them when they put out a contract on his life. He was running a hooker ring for them, but he started skimming from it. What an HONORABLE MAN we have to represent us!!

ATAR_i said...

How can you operate a hooker ring from Colorado City?

Anonymous said...

You cant run a hooker ring out of the creek, somebody is full of it and is riding a grudge.

Anonymous said...

oh Ruth, you need to go write a book then you could make it as long as you want.

Anonymous said...

Try Vegas!!

Anonymous said...

Where is Arthur Blackmore? He is a good business man. He should be nominated as a trustee

Anonymous said...

Who ever thought I would write a book about a hooker ring? That is laughable. I see you been talking to a few men. Lets laugh together. If I ever write a book, It will not be about a hooker ring. It will not be about Richard Holm. It will not be about Arthur Blackmore. It will not be about squabbles of land. It will not be about any of you. It will be about something good. Surly, there is something good, I can think of besides Uncle Warren and his great goodness to me. I would not write a book about him either. I may write about a texas mission house, that took in a homeless retard. I may write about the diffrence in a non predudice state compared to a predudicial one. I may write about a court case that I was never honored to attend that took my children away, on good old american bought law. I may write about those texan rangers that took me to the mentle hospital at another mans call, and treated me like a queen. I may write about the piano they let me play. I may write about the people who sang to me in Texas Land. I may write about the mission people, who when I asked them in total astonishment who these people were, said that they were a freedom rights mission. They said like in other country's, only we are upon American soil. I may write about the negro that carried my machine, because I was very tired and too, stubborn to put it down. I may write about The city bus driver who stopped for me. I may write about the man who gave me the money to get on the bus. I may write about the cat who sat on my lap at the bus stop. I may write about the man who took me to the park every week, to make sure I was ok. I may write about the ones who fed me in the truck stop, when I had no where else to go. I may write about the books they bought me. I may write about the beautiful houses in Amirillo Texas, and the flowers that bloomed in the winter. I may write about the rain. I may write about my case manager, Kristine Johnson. I may write about the stuffy old food stamp office in the outskirts of the city, and the bus that took me there. I may write about the man who took me to a swamp. I may write about the dog who came and saved me. I may write about the ones who lived under the bridge. I may write about the women who kissed me, and gave me all the things I needed from the mission, because some one else would not send me anything, that was mine when I asked. I may write about the dumpsters that are as rich as Walmart shelfs, and the people on the streets that had a choice to say no to drugs, but took them any how, and I had no say, but was forced on them, by a man at home and arizonia state predudicial politacle law. I may write about the man who bought me a hamburger in the park. But to right about men who squander what they have and try to take what others have? Why bother. We would only argue any how. To write about people who hate us and our lifestyle and try to destroy it, because they are not like me. Why bother. We would only argue any how. I will write about the birds that float down Niagra Falls and over the water fall, and fly back. I will write about the fish in New York City. I shall write about a tiny flying spider that lives in Texas. I shall write about the Black river that runs under the sand. I shall write about the Texas Gentleman. In texas Land, I could say no to drugs and sex. I will write about my TExas Fredom Land. According to the papers, I am totaly Physiclly and mentally incapable of taking care of myself let alone a child, Yet, a begger on texas streets I had rights as an ameican citazin. I said no to drugs. I said no to sex. I could sing in church. They did not discriminate against me. I was a lady. I say you know nothing about me. Can you afford to be as free as me. How many of you would do at this minuet, what you expect your neighbor to do? I like Texas. I would fly the Flag again there. I mean besides my back yard. The beggers on the street had more honor, than Arizonia law, that takes women's children away with out even a supenia. I challange you all. GET OUT THE CONSTITUTION. FLY THE FLAG OF THE FREE AND THE BRAVE. With Liberty and Justace for all. Not just liberty for those who pay. We are on the brink of our great debt. Who have you struck. When will you try to undo it. As you forgive, so shall you be forgiven. WE are human's. Who have you loved unconditionally?

Anonymous said...

I may in time write what it was like to watch a ten year old girl curl up back wards and have blood run from her mouth as she died in my arms. I may write about two tiny baby,s who died from conjestive heart failure. I may write about the one who would live who would not die from a heart condition or a mysterious accident and they took her away, and call me crazy. I may write about my boys as they took them and turned me away, and called me dumb. In time I may look into the mirror and concore the pain in my heart. In time, I may not dress my daughter as she grows, and listen to taunts of wicked cruel people that Leeann called and my children are missing me. In time I may be able to take my one year old nursing baby and bury the memory and not see her tears and outstreached arms as she cried moma, moma. In time I may be blessed with no memory. In time maybe I could forget. Why write a book. Why keep it with me forever. My daughter is not mine. She is Leeanns. She is Willards and Leeanns. I have not had her since she was one. She is six. To her I am not her mother. To her Macayla is her twin. The one I made gifts for when she was born. I would never seperate the two. Since I am the one Willard hated, I will sacrifice for the love my daughter had and has for her other mother and sister's. I was arrested for wanting to see her. They say I am a crimnal for wanting to see my daughter. The Lawyer says Willard says I had intent to do harm. A crimnal for loving a child. He made the restrictions on the court order, not me. I am retarded you see. They can decide how my intent was with out ever seeing me. He was not there. Only three cops that assulted me. In time I may write about her sky blue eyes. I may write about her name. Mitzi LaRay LaRain barlow. The ray, the rain. All that is needed to make my desert bloom. Alas, alas. Tis fairy land. My baby is a girl. She has grown. It is me stuck in time. Dressing a daughter. Feeding her. Looking for her. Waiting for my son's to come home from school. They will not. They are men. They have a job. They are as old as I was when they were born and older. Tis fairy land and fairy dust I carry in my pocket. Your insults mean nothing. Just talk of people who are on there path. I liked Leeann. She was gentle. Soft and gentle. I made her gifts. My daughter will grow. She will live. And what was done no man can undo. No man can undo. no man can undo. It is done. Every one knows what they did. Why write a book about it.

ATAR_i said...

Ruth, you have endured more pain than I can even relate to. I have seen pain - experienced a significant bit myself, but nothing like you describe.

Hear me when I say, that I bear no malice, nor desire evil and cruel things for you - that is not true.

Because I do not believe as you, does not make me evil, nor does it make you righteous. We are, what we are. Gentiles and apostates (according to your own testimony) have shown you great kindnesses. They are not evil - just because they are not like you.

Many women have wept like you, would you call them wicked? Don't let your mind believe and your mouth utter unkind things to the multitudes you have never met, but might have shown you kindnesses, or shown others those same kindnesses.

Anonymous said...

And who can turn back the clock. I do not condemn you. I do not judge you. It is not my place.

Anonymous said...

I must say, I have a lot of good in my life. My people are great to me. The one's who truly are in my church. I am very grateful and blessed that I am privledged to have been born here and to know these people. We are all in troubleing times. Our Nation is in troubleing times. LOVE CONCORES ALL.

onthestreet said...

Atar Said:
Because I do not believe as you, does not make me evil, nor does it make you righteous. We are, what we are. Gentiles and apostates (according to your own testimony) have shown you great kindnesses. They are not evil - just because they are not like you.

Street's Reply: Unbelief IS evil. Belief IS Righteous. Now, that doesn't make every kind act of unbelievers evil, anymore than it makes every mistake of believers something good. Truth is truth, and "That moment we reject anything that comes from God, the devil takes over."

Believe it or unbelieve it. That is certainly your choice, and the choice that you must now make, and suffer the consequences of unbelief.

onthestreet said...

The devil himself is very kind, when it is convenient and effective.

onthestreet said...

The above in response to all saying how so very kind (and ignorant) you've all been.

fttc said...

OTS 4:02

That describes my experience with warren exactly.

ATAR_i said...

And, I believe that the Bible is the unerring word of God. And, that nothing should be added or subtracted from it.

According that this book I am a believer.

Anonymous said...

And the Bible says God spoke many times. He had a Prophet at all times on the earth. One prophet at a time. The key's were handed down from Prophet to prophet. God said I am unchangable. He tought the Law of Abrham, Isacc and Sarah. The bible teaches that The higher law is to love the lord with all your heart might mind and streanth, and your neighbor as yourself.
The bible tought to ask of God and get instrutions for yourself.
Now if God required that then, Why not now?
Or do you think that you are one of those people in bible days?
If God was kind and Loving then and spoke to men, and had a prophet, Why not now?
You say you believe the bible. What part do you apply to your life.
I believe the principles tought in the bible too. The Book of Morman teaches the truth, of the principles of the bible. Both are a testimonie of the Christ. Both are a history of a people. A testimonie of What God does with a believer and a non-believer. And right now a record is being kept of our history. A record is written by the Angels. Every act. Every deed. And a new bible will be put out. Not to the unbelievers. Not to the wicked. I do not supose to make a judgement of who fills these shoes. I am not the Judge. I am a witness. God alone knows the intent of your heart. He said, "Leave judgement to me, it is mine. and forgive your neighbor. You who forgive will be forgiven." This is a principle. Principles of the gospel are very simple. Like smoking. If you smoke you are infilterated. If you hate you are filled with negative feelings. If you love you are filled with love. No man excapes the principles of the gospel. You can not hate and love at the same t ime. WE all make mistakes. We all have need of repentance. The bible is true, to the extent that men leave it like it was written in the beginning. And tho they have changed it some, The principle is the same. Atari, I am glad you believe the bible. If you do not turn away from what you know is right you can not be an apostate. A gentile is not an apostate. This is impossible. They never had the light. An apostate is a person who know Jesus personally, and Testifies and knows the truth of the prophets and willingly turns from the teachings of Jesus to flatter and pamper his body for evil and corupt purposes. A gentile is someone who is honest in heart and lives the best they know how, yet have not Known Jesus or his Prophet personaly and have not had any gifts of the Presthood confered upon them. To turn willingly from what you know is right and Join hands with what you know is evil is apostacy. Jesus proteced the more rightouse upon the earth at his death. They remembered for years. The events at his second coming will be remembered for a thousand years. He again will preserve the more rightouse. The pure in heart. The people who are honest. Jesus can not use a lier and one who propmotes lies. I would hope you are not one of those that suport lies. I would hope you are one he can protect. You and he do know.

ATAR_i said...

I don't believe in the book of mormon. I do not believe it was the inspired word of God.

There was the 'old law' in the Bible. Women who were separated during menstruation, killing of animals to atone for sin, etc.

Jesus, the son of God came - the curtain that separated the holy of holies from the church was torn. We no longer need to go through someone else to speak with God, we no longer need to shed the blood of animals to atone for sins. Jesus made that sacrifice - the lamb of God.

So, I relate to God personally, he sent his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him, should not die, but have everlasting life.

To the best of my abilities I follow the teachings of The Bible. However, I am born with a sin nature, and so are you. And, so despite our best efforts, we will always need God's forgiveness.

So, if you point at my imperfection and say 'ahah you are not righteous' then you are not living in God's grace.

The man on the cross, the criminal next to Jesus was made righteous with his last breath. It's hard for those of us who denied ourselves for so long to wrap our hands around that concept. That someone who has just come to know God, can have that same forgiveness - but that is God.

God wants men to come unto him, we are all wicked sinners in his sight, for our righteousness is like filthy rags to him. You might think you are more righteous than another - but in God's eyes, all of our sin has made us filthy as the other.

THAT is the God of the Bible, My God.

Anonymous said...

Jesus said, I have come to jullfil the law, not to take away. He put out the higher law. The people rejected the higher law when Moses Went into the mountian. He did give them, then the lesser law. It is written, "If a man takes from you your cloak give him also your coat. Walk with your brother two miles if he ask you to go one." The sacrifice Jesus asks is the sacrifice of all bad feelings and your sins. The man hung on the cross with him, was told, ON the morrow, you shall be with me in paridise. At death each enter the world of spirit. They did walk together in this land. It did not change what they were. Jesus continues to teach people in the spirit world and in our human world. His gospel did not change. I am glad you are a believer Atri. We need a lot more believers. Would you live and die for your belief? If a people who hated you Jailed you, and put drugs in you and took your chldren, and you lay at times at deaths door, Would you forsake your love of Jesus and the bible? Just once have I failed. And listened to there mocks. Just once I failed, as they drugged me and showed me shows of Joeseph's assasination. As I walked upon the streets of america, I seen the truth of what my prophet tought. As they held court and took my children and use them as bait to get me to forsake my religion, I held to my Love of What I believe. When a man starved his hndicap wife to death and even one person dsanctioned that, I seen the truth in our prophets words. I also tended a child who was disabled. For ten years I fed her every two hours. Then Like this women, she was layed in the grave because someone suposed she was not as great as them. Not quite human. I watched her die. I listened to the doctors try to convince me to kill my other babys before they were born. I did not. Why? They said, because of where you are from. My God did protect me. He protected my children until the appointed hour of there death, and I helplessly watched as they stuggled for the breath of life. Have you done this? The old law was done away. A barbariouse law, that the people demanded. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Yet in america, they allow murder on the most helpless. That women lived longer than any person I have known with out food and water. She fought for life. God help the America's. They have filled there cups. You drink your own fate. I will ask again, Who will be the Nathan Hales in this war? Who will be the Paul Revere's? Who will have the boston tea party? Who will be the Mobbers of others like the Missoirians were? Who will walk the trail of tears, Like the indians before, and I have? Who will write the constitution. Who will live the higher law? Who will be the cortesses and slaughter millions of inacent indians. Who will free the negro's? Who will keep the flag flying, as a nation kills others in there country. The united states started this war. Who will end it. England Was bombed. Who will bring peace? Who will stand faithful when the U. N. brings in its armys. It was spoken by the prophets, They will come in. They will not speak english. Because the american souldiers will refuse to kill there own people. What would you do, if they succed in bringing the american people into bondage like they tried to when they bombed the twin towers? Look at the film. Look at the Film, that they put out. Could a little tiny plane melt the mettle on a building that size. If so, there building was built as flimsy as the excuse to make war in the first place.

Anonymous said...

Ruth you are insane. Why dont you go back to the nuthouse where you obviously belong?

onthestreet said...

That covers alot of ground, and pretty well says it all.

onthestreet said...

What Ruth just said, pretty well says it all.

ATAR_i said...

Old covenant laws (such as the laws of sacrifice) have been set aside precisely because Jesus has fulfilled them. He did not come for the purpose of destroying those laws, but for fulfilling their meaning.

Yet because they point to Jesus Christ and show how God interacted with a group of people at one time and place, the old covenant laws continue to give us insights into God's will. Even the laws of sacrifice are "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16).

Although the Old Testament is inspired Scripture and part of the Word of God, its purpose was to point to the coming and work of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, when it comes to understanding what is required for Christian behavior, the Old Testament must be interpreted in light of what the New Testament says -- and the New Testament says that the old covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

Anonymous said...

Yes, Before Jesus came, they made sacrifieses of animals. They fought and plundered. Jesus died on the Cross so you and I could be reserected. You will still be what you are. Jesus gave you the free agency to choose. You were trained for your mission before this earth. You felt as tho you could do it. Jesus did not die so you could sin. You will be what you are. He calls all men, to be born of the spirit, and forsake sin. Yes the old covnant is obsolete, because Jesus now required a sacrifice of sin. Who does sin? Those who willinly do what they know is wrong. I am glad you are a beleiver, atari. I meet a lot of people who do not even believe in Jesus. I have heard people say they can do anything they want, cause there is no Christ and no life after death. No seperation of body and spirit so to speak, that when you lay in the grave all is over. At least you beleive to some degree. If you did not that is your right too. We are just having a conversation. The noce thing about truth is it is truth. And every person was born with enough knowledge to know the difference betwene right and wrong. A person knows when they cheat and lie, purposly.

onthestreet said...

Mostly true, Atar. However, in saying that: "the New Testament says that the old covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13), you err(7/11/2005 6:49 PM).

Remember what you just quoted: "I came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it." He came NOT to make it obsolete, but continually applied, fulfilled, accomplished. When you have accomplished something, that doesn't make it "obsolete", for it continues to exist.

Sacrifice is still the law of God, although it takes on greater meaning with the redemption, in the sacrifice of our own animal passions and egoes. So the law is NEVER fulfilled, until we obey him, and fulfill it in our own lives. Otherwise, we have animal natures still, and not divine. Then, the redemption only saves us at that level.

ATAR_i said...

NO, I didn't make a mistake - your just doing a CYA maneuver.

Your theology is like a patchwork quilt with all manner of fabric that has to be mended. It's already got so many different colors and hues, you think we won't notice the new round hole covering it. Well, we do - it doesn't even match the old mish mash fabric you had on there to begin with.

It doesn't work - you keep trying but the theology just won't work.

Anonymous said...

ya, well take it up with Jesus. after all, like you said how do we know. I know how I know, But how would you know?

onthestreet said...

All manner of fabric is called a coat of many colors. Joseph's coat of many colors is the oral tradition, the secrets, all the colors and correspondences of the Tree of Life. And the top is the fine or refined linen.

onthestreet said...

It is Priesthood, the right, the inheritance, the chain of authority of heaven and earth, vouch-safed in a man.

Anonymous said...

READ the "COMING CRISIS AND HOW TO MEET IT"Satan sitting in the Temple
giving revelations as God.Thats Warren exactly.

onthestreet said...

Rev. 11: "Measurer the temple," but leave out the court, for it belongeth to the Gentiles."

Anonymous said...

OnTheStreet,Go check yourself into the nuthouse,take Ruth with you,It would be the best thing you could do for Uncle Warren.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, "Nut". Well, why don't we analyze it, huh? It is both delicious food, as well as a seed, and the acorn NUT grows into the mighty oak.

Now, permute it: Tun. Now there is a ton of meaning and value. Or you can add music to it, as in "tune".

See how so very well you all praise our dear sister, Ruth, and myself, and all whom you so eagerly castegate, while yourselves you thoroughly casterate.

Then, where are your NUTS?

ATAR_i said...

None of your posts make any sense OTS.

I'm going to have to assume that you were never schooled in theology, and when you don't have an answer - you just make one up. Usually using something the original poster said.

It's an interesting way, but not very theologically and Biblically sound.

And - for the I Know poster. You don't KNOW and I don't KNOW - that's the point.

onthestreet said...

"YOU don't know" for sure, and your confession that "none of it makes any sense, OTS," proves that thoroughly.

It is all MOST Biblical, contrary to your lame assertion that it's not, thus proving further that YOU do not know.

Don't you understand permutation? The letters of the Hebrew alphabet each have a certain distinct energy and power. It has to do with "string theory." So no matter how you mix up the letters of a word, the very same energies are still there, although in a different order, and therefore producing a different light on the same thing, and a different life form.

Thus, when God spoke and the world was, the very words having energy and cellular life in them, he creates just by his decrees. When you attain to that power, then you see as you are seen and know as you are known.

ATAR_i said...

Your talkin to a girl who celebrated passover all her life Street - better try again.

Ya nudnick

onthestreet said...

Yes, the Jews celebrated Passover all their lives, yet how they crucified him.

Anonymous said...

You all seem so up-to-date on the subject of Jeffs, yet I just have to wonder how legal it is to remove trustees off any trust, and how does this snatching of rights effect anyone else who has formed a trust? Are all trusts suddenly made vulnerable to the removal of its trustees only on the accusation of disgruntled troublemakers? Or is it only religious trusts who have lost all security that we can arbitrarily pick and choose who WE think will be a better trustee? WOW! STAND UP AND BE PROUD, AMERICA!!! WE ARE BITING OUR OWN ASSES!!

Anonymous said...

Oh, by the way...I am NOT FLDS! Just a concerned citizen watching in amazement as we cheer and laud the removal of OUR OWN religious freedoms! Don't think it isn't so...

ATAR_i said...

anon 2:17 since you know nothing about this trust - I'd read a little bit more about what happened before you chat this topic up.

Anonymous said...

atar_i: I would love to read up on this. Where do I look? All I can find are whatever the media has printed. I assume YOU, atar_i, know Jeffs personally, and that you are a witness to the attrocities you write of. If NOT, I would like to know where you became so educated on this.

ATAR_i said...

email me, the people on this blog have heard enough of me (I can be long winded)

atar_i@hotmail.com

onthestreet said...

AMEN!

onthestreet said...

AMEN!

onthestreet said...

and AMEN!

Anonymous said...

Normally, a free american trustee would face his accusers and show that he was acting in good faith for the benefit of the beneficiaries and be found guiltless or not and presto, justice would be served for all - no vulnerability and no arbitrary anything.

Anonymous said...

What mike and don did was damn stupid. Vengence is the only reason they opened their mouths.

Anonymous said...

YES!!! ANON 2:17!!

Finally someone that can see what is happening to our FREEDOM!!

WAKE UP AMERICA, WE ARE SLOWLY BOILING LIKE FROGS!! IF THEY CAN DO IT TO THE UEP, THEY CAN DO IT TO ANYONE!! AND THEY WILL!!!!!!

I work with a group of lawyers, and these professionals are VERY concerned over this situation. They tell me that what is happening to the UEP is setting a precedent for the government to do the same to ANYONE they decide. They are just using the same old "religious fanatic" excuse to take over this particular trust.

And does ANYONE on this blog REALLY think that there can be any FAIR TRIALS for these people, after the way that this whole thing has been handled? Come on, now! You will have to go the deepest regions of Africa to find a group of people who are not already "informed" of this situation.

And ATARI, what makes you an expert in this particular trust? Just because certain people give you THEIR point of view, does not make you an expert.

CAN'T YOU PEOPLE SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO AMERICA????

fttc said...

Around here warren is doing the boiling!

What do you suggest should have been done instead?

onthestreet said...

NONNY Said: 7/17/2005 10:39 AM

I work with a group of lawyers, and these professionals are VERY concerned over this situation. They tell me that what is happening to the UEP is setting a precedent for the government to do the same to ANYONE they decide. They are just using the same old "religious fanatic" excuse to take over this particular trust.

STREET's Reply: It's just the fulfillment of prophecy and the Word of God:

"It shall begin at the House of God, and from there shall it go forth."

Upon My House Shall it Begin. Doctrine and Covenants 76:28; Moses 4:3; JST-Rev. 12:1,7,17; 13:1,7; 1 Nephi 14:13. ... www.greaterthings.com/Essays/ BeyondMark/Bm4-upon_my_house.htm

ATAR_i said...

If a trust, does not operate by it's own bylaws. If the assets are sold off, and the profits are only shared with one of it's members (the one who authorized the sale), If it does not act for the benefits of those who have contributed to the trust, and takes all of their contributions without properly compensating them - It needs some help.

So, I'm not an expert, nor did I purport to be. And, I'm not saying that I like the precedent - but what are the options?

Again - IF the FLDS had stood up for itself, it's marriages, it's trusts - perhaps you wouldn't find yourself in this position. But you DO, because you HAVE.

onthestreet said...

The option is to suffer the wrath of God. For the order of the Priesthood is for one man, God, in one man, Jesus Christ, in one man, his prophet upon the earth, to control all things, and for us his subjects to sacrifice all earthly things. That is the order of God. It is throughout your own scripture.

ATAR_i said...

NO - the option was to suffer the wrath of warren.

I don't doubt there would be a price - but it was paid anyway (without the benefit of standing up, AND putting yourself a t risk with law enforcement).

Why can't you begin to have meetings (perhaps not on Sundays, as it was metioned that might be weird). But just Town Meetings - open forum meetings.

Anonymous said...

atar-i: what difference does it make to you if they have meetings? Town meetings? There ARE town meetings. Just the other day! Where were you? Oh, that's right. You were not interested in the ones NOT headed up by the FLDS.

ATAR_i said...

Why do I care? Interesting response. When a normal compassionate person hears that people are hurting - a natural response is to want to help.

This is how people outside the FLDS respond to situations when they know people are hurting (even if they are a different religion, race, country etc).

I'm surpised I had to explain that to you. Even more suprised at the nasty tone of your post - because I care firstly, and because I didn't come to your meeting.

Firstly, I wouldn't come to a meeting I wasn't invited to.

Secondly, even if I was invited, I couldn't come - I don't live a distance that makes that reasonable.

Thirdly, I have never attended a meeting for either side.

Lastly, I'm glad there are meetings. How do they go? - how many people come? - do any faithful to warren come?

onthestreet said...

All that, after saying:
"WHY DO I CARE?"
Go figure.

ATAR_i said...

Yes - someone asked my why I care.

I repeated the question, and then answered it.

It's english - and fairly easy to understand if you just read it.

onthestreet said...

Okay, if you care, prove it. We're not talking about hit and miss caring, or caring for the flesh and crucifying the soul. We're talking about caring for the purity and the salvation of all mankind, to the point of cutting off what offends, as Christ commands us. Thus is the FLDS.
Do you care?

Faithful Woman said...

Is anyone keeping up to date on the current proposed trustees? August 4th isn't very far away. I sure don't think we should pay high priced lawyers to do the job. Just because warren and his crownies blow money like it was nothing, doesn't mean the rest of the hard working people can afford that.