Saturday, May 14, 2005


The Southern Poverty Law Center recently published the Spring 2005 - Issue 117 "Intelligence Report." Of special interest to me was, being a Schleicher Co. resident, the article related to the YFZ ranch, it's prophet and current movement within the polygamist FLDS cult.

I fond the article to be informative, especially the photographs, but, skewed to imply that the FLDS's policy of intollerance to individuals whose skin is of a different hew. Yes, the mention of polygamist relationships was mentioned but the practice of a fifty year old man marrying a thirteen year old girl was dismissed as unimportant when compared to the racial issue.

First and foremost, I refuse to discriminate against an individual because their skin is not like mine or their country or origin or source of faith differs from my own. KKK, Ayrian Nation, Neo-Nazi, Racist Skinheads etc. do not now nor will ever receive my support.

An overview of the rest of the magazine really reveals the intent and purpose of its publication. This organization uses the cover of abhorance of race to perpetuate an on-going degredation of the Christian faith and the leaders who dare to speak up regarding abortion, homosexuality, polygamy or family rights.

An election was held this past November. The issue of just what constitutes marriage was presented to voters in a number of states. In every instance, by overwhelming majority, the citizens of those various states voted to support marriage as the union between a man and a woman. Anywhere that voters had a choice marriage between two men or two women was rejected.

My next question is, Who has an agenda here? Southern Poverty certainly does not voice concensus with the majority of American people. Any leader, whether he he a minister of the gospel on T.V. or in the pulpit, any elected leader, any civic leader or organization who does not agree with SPLC's agenda are considered "HATE" mongers.

Just WHO advocates HATE? Are individuals who encourage moral behavior HATE inspired? I think that that assumption is straight out of the bowels of HELL. So you don't believe in HELL, well, you will sooner than later.


Anonymous said...

Amen!!When some bloggers started
making a big deal over SPLC placing
Warrens group on "Hatelist",I had to laugh.I live
in rural Southeastern I was familiar with SPLC case against
the Alabama Klan.Big Deal!!!did it affect racism in Alabama?No Way!!!
Southern Poverty Law Center is a political group with a liberal agenda.Any one who disagrees is a

ATAR_i said...

Interesting. I heard Warren's partial speeches on how the FLDS views 'those of the negro race', and, from what I have been led to understand, he was not ad libbing - these were actually written down. Is that not the case?

I know it's not in the Bible - so is it in some FLDS Reveleation. If it is in some prophets reveleation - then - it is supposed to be 'the word of God', as your prophets supposedly hear directly from God.

And, if it is something that you believe - own up to it. My guess is that people are embarrassed to - because they know it's wrong. (If they think it's right - I'm putting them in the same category with Richard) - I mean why not?

Now, that being said, I know how these liberal organizations work - and the labeling they do - I'll give you that. But - there is a place of that sort of fanaticism - and I'm glad they are watchdogs.

I have a couple dogs - and sometimes they bark at the stupidest stuff - in the middle of the night - drives me crazy - but sometimes - it's important - and I'm really glad they woke me up.

Paladin for Truth said...

If one listens to Warren's tapes, you can find where he claims that his father is from the pure blood of Christ. Thus Warren believes he is too. If one looks at the marriages of late, they all appear to be to men close to Warren's bloodlines. Racist or not, you decide.

Anonymous said...

What hypocrits you are, giveing street his own post. Can't handle religiouse debates. Others have said a lot worse. And making restrictions you do not keep for your-self.

Anonymous said...

Who has said worse? I think it a wonderful idea to put ots in his/her own post. Bet you a dime "it" has nothing to do with Warren. The real hypocrisy is that "it" pretends to be flds and yet does not obey the masters command to stay off these wicked internet waves. We should all have a day of prayer for ots that Warren will find it in his heart to reinstate him/her. Should bring silence for a little while and maybe get him back on prozac.

ATAR_i said...

To Anon

1. Street asked to have his own area

2. Streets posts kept being deleted for spamming and it upset him - here he can spam away without fear of being deleted.

3. Are you jealous?

Anonymous said...

I have heard that Warren Jeffs was screwing around with a Barlow girl after he married his first wife and Uncle Roy married him to the second Barlow does that work? It's ok for me, but not for you?

Anonymous said...

to Answer atar,Most of Warrens racist beliefs are from Journal of Discourses.a 19th century collection of sermons of early LDS prophets.Warren takes obscure
racial doctrines from early 19th century, pre-civil war LDS leaders.Warren twists these quotes,and uses them out of context.For example some of quotes Warren uses as racial teaching,are nothing more than Brigham Young's personal opinions about the causes of about the Civil war in Journal of Discourses.Not meant to be regarded as Scripture.Most bloggers
probably dont realize the first Mormon troubles in Missourri in 1830's were caused by Mormon refusal to own slaves and outspoken abolitionist attitude,hardly a racist policy eh?.Few if any Flds
know anything of Mormon history,Warren discourages it.
sixteenth son.

Anonymous said...

To 5/15/2005 2:03 PM,

Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

First, most racist doctorine came from Brigham Young, 2nd prophet of the LDS church. Second, leaders in the LDS church in the 1960's also had choice words for the other races. Even the Book of Mormon is racist...

Alma 3: 5-8

5 Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth.

6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.

As for Brigham Young, most of these obscure quotes are from conference talks. Sure, they're aren't cannonized, but neither is not watching R rated movies today right? But believing LDS member still think that's what God wants them to do.

Anonymous said...

to anonymous 5/15/2005 306pm.
I'm guessing you are a "Mormonism is Cult" type.Read the start of this tread HATE is a four letter word.Hate of any group,just because
you dont like them is predjudice.I am not defending either Warren or Brighams racism.Atar asked where Warren gets his sources so I answered.From what I've been reading on some posts,I think LDS fundamental or other wise should be
very afraid.There seems to be plenty of people ready to exterminate.

Anonymous said...

To 5/15/2005 4:33 PM:

Nope, not a "Mormonism is a cult" type. I think the Mormonism of the 1800's was a cult, but the current version is just fine. My whole family happens to be members, and I was raised in the church. The FLDS practice the 1800's style of Mormonism, making them a cult. This coming from someone who has spent a vast amount of time in Colorado City.

Anonymous said...

To anon 1:46

I heard that Warren was screwing around with his first wifes sister. Annette Barlow was his first wife and her sister was Barbara. Warren was screwing around with Barbara, so they had to get married. The same things that Warren has been cutting people off of the church for he is guilty of the same things, or way worse. You can see that now a days what applies to a Jeffs does not apply to the rest of us. Now you can see why Warren has to be rid of all those that knew his past. After Warren married Annette then he went around showing pictures of her in lingerie to all of his friends. Warren also got kicked out of his fathers house for a while because he would not leave his sisters alone.

Anonymous said...

I'm just wondering where these stories about Annette and Barbara come from. Didn't Annette just recently die from cancer?
I thought I heard something like that

also, does anyone know how big Warrens family was before his Father died?

Anonymous said...

Annette did not die it was her sister Barbara. I believe she died of breast cancer. She is buried at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado.

Anonymous said...

Barbara Ann Barlow Jeffs is buried on the YFZ property. She died of breast cancer and requested to be buried on the property. She died on July 10, 2004.

Anonymous said...

To anonymous 5-15-05 4 ;33pm
CJ you have your own blog site on
on Aimoo.Please keep your hatred of mormonism 19th century, or 21st century over there.
We are trying to deal with Warren problems,over here,We dont need you
Laude and Troy
Stung all rabid anti-mormon.venom.Our anti Warren Flds/Concerned Texan Coalition,goal is Warren gone,Colorado City straightend up.
UEP put back to the people who paid
it.Your goal is to Destruction of Flds.same as Warren ,Seem like you and he ought join forces with warren,he might give you some pointers,since he has much more practise.

mormonboy said...

Wow! 4:33 blogging Mormon. That's kind of an oxymoron To say you believe in Mormonism but you Don't agree with Joseph Smith or The Book of Mormon, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. These were all the Mormon Church of the 1800's. What other Doctrine do you have to go with that relates to Mormonism?

mugwump said...

This blog was originally posted to spark comment regarding the meaning of "HATE". After reading all but the first couple of comments it seems to me that you want to get away prom the original purpose. Frankly, I don't care what Warren did or didn't say. I am NOT one of his robots.

What I seek here is witty, insightful, thought provolking exchange of ideas and viewpoints regarding HATE as it is being demonstrated by the "media" in the US of A.

Do I think that the YFZ Ranch outfit is now, or will become a serious cult? Absolutely!!!!
Can I do anything about it? That is the purpose of this blog. Am I going to take a 105 how1tzer and blow a hole in the temple? No, that would be stupid and I could be indicted for placing human life at risk. Do I wish Warren or his followers dead? No, just to wake up and quit being enslaved by the ravings of a mad-man, i.e. Joseph Smith.


Anonymous said...

to mormonboy,Anon 4:33PM is neither mormon nor anonymous just check out his site at
under the diguise of being anti-polygamy his thinly veiled diatribes are nothing but Anti-Lds venom.

Antique Mormon said...

The FLDS don't believe that they are promoting hatred. Neither do the LDS, the Catholics, the Muslim world, or any other religious group. It is individuals that practice hatred, and individual ideologies. If every thinking man or woman that had any influence at all would not allow their own bias to spill over onto society, hatred would soon go away.

Anonymous said...

What was that cryptic reference to "The pure blood of Christ" above?

Is this similar to the claims of some other fringe groups that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and had a child or children, and that "they" are the descendants of Jesus Christ?

And does the "pure" part imply a closed bloodline?

Anonymous said...

To 5/16/2005 8:50 AM:

I'm not Jim Ashurst, but I know him. How is it antiLDS to quote LDS leaders? Quite a leap there.

Anonymous said...

How can I get to Southern Poverty
Law Center?I wonder if the are interested in our local Hate-Groups?Tapestry of Polygamy
Help the Childbrides.
Stop Polygabuse.

mugwump said...

Southern Poverty Law Center has several websites.;; www.teaching

Their quarterly publication is refered to as "Intelligence Report," which I would accept with not a grain of but a truck load of salt. The publication's website is WWW.INELLIGENCEPROJECT.ORG. After reading this "rag" I think the liberal use of the title "Intelligence Report" is a bit over the top.

Just be prepared to be inundated with their version of "HATE" groups and their defination of "HATE."


Bountiful Mormon said...

What's this Mugwump? you claim to not express HATE towards color, ethnic race or religeon. Now you start bashing the Founding father of the Mormon Faith. This is very hurtful to alot of us who have a testimony of our Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. You would probably flush "our" holy book. Would You? Even Mr. Jeffs is a sacred leader to those people in his compound, so come-on if you claim to not support HATE, then don't voice it.

mugwump said...


Joseph Smith and P.T. Barnum could both be called the father of humbug.

Other post's have told the story of Smith's deception. I would like to share a story about Barnum that I think most readers can identify.

Barnum built a large side-show in New York City. Large crowds paid their entrance fee and went through the turnstyle to gain entrance. The crowds enjoyed themselves so much that Barnum decided he needed something to hurry them along so that others could pay the price and enter. As the customers entered, there against the back wall, was a drawing of a ferocious tiger with the body of a man clamped firmly in his jaws. A caption was displayed "see the MAN-EATING TIGRESS" an arrow pointed the way. At each corner another pose was viewed urging customers to hurry to see the "MAN-EATING TIGRESS."
Finally arrived at the last exibit, a sleepy, overfed, elderly, creature wearing a tiger skin. Against the back wall there was another sign advertising that you have seen the "MAN-EATING TIGRESS," follow the arrows to view it's mate, the "FIERCE EGRESS." Those who wondered if Barnum could top what they had just experienced hurried, following arrows directing them to the Egress. When they arrived they found themselves back out on the street.

My quarrel is not now nor ever has been with the people who practice the Mormon faith. I do believe that all of you have been victimized by Smith, his apostles and have embraced the "humbug" Smith proclaimed as truth.

"You (Ye for those who only recognize the King James Version) shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." (You find the verse. Most concordances will assist in making the search easier.)

Anonymous said...

Yea verily now I see. You do show disrespect for another mans' religeous beliefs. Would you stand with those in Guantonimo Bay who supossedly flushed the "Koran"? It is different than the King James.
The Mormon way, as outlined in the 11th Article of Faith "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own concience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Please allow us that privilege." Don't criticize our heritage.

Anonymous said...

You can worship as you will, just as I can criticise whoever I choose. I think David Koresh is a cult leader, I also think Joseph Smith is bunk, how does that injure you?

Be also aware that religionists commonly call into question the beliefs of secularists. Is it not the same thing for me to openly not think Joseph Smith was a prophet, and for you to openly call Athiests into repentance?

Anonymous said...

Mugwump,you are free to bash Joe Smith,all you please.But by bashing
his "Mindless Robot Minions"as you
so eloquently call them.You are showing the same intolerance you claim in earlier post you are against ie;race skin color,national origin.Just for the record,I am
certainly not either LDS,Flds.or any offshoot.Do you want to free them,mentaly temporally,physically whatever? or are just sad that under our present laws,YOU CANT ROUND EM ALL UP and begin THE FINAL SOLUTION OF THE MORMON QUESTION?

quiet canadian said...

Yes, The Late Governor Boggs of Missouri assumed he had the "Final Solution for the Mormon Question" In 1836 he issued an extermination order against the Mormons, then sent armies of mobbers to guard the roads leading out of the State, the Mormons couldn't flee their murdering, raping, and pillaging. Their liveswtock was taken, their homes and businesses burned. That order was finally recinded with an appology from the Governor 140 years later in 1976.
Now in present day life, the mobs of hate mongers keep stirring the government to persecute any group who seems to be different. David Koresh may have been a villian, but did his followers deserve to have an ending such as they had?
We need to understand that the FLDS have set Warren up as their King. they are now subject to their king. He seems to be holding them in bondage. Maybe they need a Moses to deliver them from bondage. They don't need persecution that could result in someones life being taken.
The people and the media have a habit of stirring the government up to act against groups who are somewhat different in their lifestyle. After action is taken and peoples lives are destroyed, everyone backs of and turns to blame the Police and law enforcement officers who have been given the duty to act against these groups.

mugwump said...

Anoymous 5/16/05 11:38 PM

Individuals have nothing to do with their own race. A person's race is determined by who were their parents. Certain inherent physical characteristics distinguish who our parents were, or are and thus our race is determined.

While we cannot do anything about our race, however we can do something about our relationship to our maker.

Holy Scripture declares repeatedly how one can be known as a child of God. Again may I refer you to a good concordance. If I were to name a particular version and translation of The Holy Bible no doubt you would find some way to tie my reference into my HATRED.

I've read no work by Mormon arthor, Joe Smith, nor by those contributing to Mormon literature up to present time, that gives me confidence that the work is divinely inspired. There are too many gaps, too much heresay, too much liberty taken with Hebrew history and the archeology of both the ancient Mid-East to the most ancient structures on both the North and South Americaian continents. The quality of writing does not even meet minimum standards of literature. Unkike the Bible, the Book of "Mormon", "Pearl of Great Price" or "Doctrines and Covenants" have no ancient provable root.

Abram was a Hebrew but not a Jew.
Abram was not under the law, given by Moses but instead subserviant to the grace of God. Abram was a bigamist but not a polygamist. But even then Hagar was given to him by his own wife Sarai, because she was barren, to bear him a son. God had no part in the decision. When the promised child, Isaac, was born Hagar and Ishmael were bannished to the desert. Isaac was not a Jew. Jacob was not a Jew. Jews are descendents of a son of Jacob (Israel)and the least favored wife Leah. His name was Judah. (that is where the name Jew comes from.)

Those delivered from Egypt were not Jews. Granted descendents of Judah were in the group. Even these people, all of Israel, were not children of God until they agreed to God's covenant and were circumcised. These descendents of Israel are the only group of humans on earth that can trace their heritage back to Abraham. They have been repeatedly imprisoned, murdered, ostracized, and abandoned. Yet God, in his mercy, and because he never goes back upon his WORD has kept a reminant alive, for his own purpose, and will until the end of time.

I am in the closing chapters of the book of Jeremiah, who was a Jewish Prophet during the reigns of Josiah, Jehoakin, Jehoakim and Zechariah. Zechariah was King of Judah when the events in "The Book of Mormon" supposedly occurred. If God had something going on regarding the establishment of new order of privledge I really believe that Jeremiah would have mentioned it.

The entire priesthood, for the whole of Israel, including Judah, were to be Levites. No Jew could act as priest. Being a Jew, even Jesus could not serve as priest. Besides, it was his purpose to BE the saccrifce for sin. Nowhere in scripture does it declare that anyone except a descendent of Aaron could be a priest of the house of Israel.

Melchisedek, priest of Salem, to whom Abram (Abraham) offered a tithe was not Hebrew. There is no proof of his lineage. To claim to be of his priestly order is absurd, totally without supportive ancient documentation. All we know about him was that he was in the right place, at the right time, doing the right work, and that Abraham recognized him as a priest of God.

As re. the "Koran", I've not read it but neither have I read "Mien Kaumpf." However I have heard readings from the "Koran" and have read exerpts from the other source, also written by a charaltan, neither work demonsrates love to "whosoever will."

It is upon those suppositions that I cannot give creditability to Mormon, Islam, or Arian Supremacy.

There are other proofs, too numerous to mention here. I have given fact and theory of many of those in other posts. I'll not repeat them here.

There is a vast difference between HATING an individual because of race, color, creed, previous servitude or anything else. It is not HATE when anyone sees obvious error and people being duped by a false teaching. God has given me a task, to testify that Jesus is Lord, that He's mine and I am HIS.
I love to share that message in whatever circumstance I am able.

Anonymous said...

To quiet canadian concerning Governer Boggs and his "final solution".
I'm curious to find out where Governer Boggs got the ideas and much of the wording for his Mormon extermination order,maybe you could shed some light on the subject as you appear well read?

I understand also that Governer Boggs was blood atoned later in retaliation for the order under the authority of Joseph Smith.Four rapid shots in the head and throat with a pistol before he could even fall down.This was done through a glass window so glass was flying everywhere as the gunman made his play on the unsuspecting victim.

The big question I have is how come the Lord preserved this mans life considering the severity and location of the wounds and mid nineteenth century surgery techniques? Somebody's prophecy was thwarted?

ATAR_i said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ATAR_i said...

Mugwump - I'm not LDS or FLDS - but where do you get your info man? It's more coherent than OnTheStreet's but just as flawed. Now I think the 'priestly' 'prophet' ideas of the LDS and FLDS are whacked, but make a sensible argument man.

Did Joseph Smith really find Gold tablets (rhetorical) - no bleeding way. Did he translate (interestingly enough) into the King James Version (how convenient). How wonderful he could translate a language he never knew (another incredibly convenient thing). And of course an Angel came and took the golden tablets after he translated them (another incredibly convenient thing).

I love how Joseph Smiths wife is cajoled into accepting polygamy - See Verse 51 - 56 in the 'journal of discourses section 132' Is that lower than low or what.

Regarding your assertion that Hebrew and Jew are not the same thing.

It's like saying "Sitting Bull was an Indian but Graham Greene is not an Indian, he's a Native American."

The original name for the people we now call Jews was Hebrews. The word "Hebrew" (in Hebrew, "Ivri") is first used in the Torah to describe Abraham (Gen. 14:13). The word is apparently derived from the name Eber, one of Abraham's ancestors.

Another name used for the people is Children of Israel or Israelites, which refers to the fact that the people are descendants of Jacob, who was also called Israel.

The word (just the WORD, not the meaning of the word) "Jew" (in Hebrew, "Yehudi") is derived from the name Judah, which was the name of one of Jacob's twelve sons. Judah was the ancestor of one of the tribes of Israel, which was named after him. Likewise, the word Judaism literally means "Judah-ism," that is, the religion of the Yehudim. Other sources, however, say that the word "Yehudim" means "People of G-d," because the first three letters of "Yehudah" are the same as the first three letters of G-d's four-letter name

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

Anonymous said...

Dear atar,I am glad mugwump has said all he said on this post.It only shows clearly that fanaticisim
and religius bigotry are not just
"Streets"problem.If Mugwump had'nt
threw in a few words about Jesus,Iwould have mistaken his ramblings for "Street"By the way,Just for the record, I am a Baptist from the Southeast.

Anonymous said...

Baptist here again,Mugwumps claim he has acommision from God,strikes me as very similar to "Street"insane claims.How about the rest of you.Lets hear from y'all fellow Texans!

Anonymous said...


The same ones who called for a boycott of DISNEYLAND?

ogre said...

years ago the aclu offered to fight in the courts for the flds for rights equal to gays. I remember the Sam BArlow saying this in a priesthood meeting in Salt Lake, and then saying that they turned them down because they didn't want to be in that crowd

just a comment

Anonymous said...

Baptist here.Yes certain Southern Baptist called for a boycott on Disneyland.Just as ignorant and fanatical as any other denomination.I dont represent or agree with them.I was just calling attention to the fact that fanatacism exists in all faiths,not just Mormonism.I only identifyed myself as a baptist because I've had several bloggers assume I am LDS.I think the separation between faith and Government,is getting too thin in America.Please lets have a few less
religous "Jihads"on this blog.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting to me to see all this rhetoric about hate. As a fundamentalist (not of the FLDS variety), I find it humorous that all of these people that want us to abandon our beliefs are hardly showing an example of Christianity or any kind of love for our fellowmen worth emulating or wanting a part of. I'm sorry, Mugwump, but your "emphatic" discussion has made me feel like someone just threw up all over me.

I see no great light of love and understanding that I want to race to and embrace. It appears that in many ways your religious beliefs are the bashing of others' beliefs rather than a set of doctrines and principles that can be set out for people to examine and perhaps want to be a part of.

I believe the message of Christ was a message of hope, a message of personal responsibility and change. I believe the way I live facilitates that work. I am not proselyting anyone. I readily acknowledge that our lifestyle isn't for everyone, but I do believe that I have the right to expect other Americans to acknowledge my right to worship according to my conscience, not Mugwump's or anyone else's. It is hardly religious freedom if I can only practice those beliefs that meet the approval and the vote of the 281,421,905 other Americans. Nor, by the way, do I feel the necessity to examine your beliefs to pass judgement on their worthiness to practice.

Tolerance and understanding are only maintained when the idea of majority rule is tempered with Jefferson's admonition to maintain protection for the minority rights, hence the Bill of Rights. Anything else belongs in 1600's Salem, Massachusetts.

Faithful Woman said...

well said anon 11:44.
Except feeling like someone else's views have thrown up on you are not exactly being open minded either.
I think what we are striving for is to report and prosecute abuse. Then the denominations can agree to disagree on doctrine and love each other anyway.
If you don't like another person's views, back away from them a little, but don't be rude.

mugwump said...

Me thinks I must be getting under someone's skin. As previously stated, in a thread no longer available on this blog, the question of Joe Smith's claims were examined under the light of a document written by Alexander Campbell, a contemporary of Smith's.

As for my "call", my relationship to God, through the precious shed blood of Jesus Christ is just that MINE. I do not claim prophetic powers, I do not demand obedience from a group of people who, once free from their opression, express joy and relief and talk freely about their enslavement when they realize that they are no more under the power of the all powerful prophet. If my sharing what I personally believe as truth is offensive to you then you have a problem. If what I say makes you mad perhaps it's time to take an inventory of your life.

In the thread that started this site it was laborously noted that HATE is a four letter word, that those who single a group of people because of their race, color, creed were singled out for the purpose of hostile agression and does not reflect this writer's view. The viewpoint is mine. It has been formulated over many years.

I will protect forever your right to oppose my view but, by the same token, I will continue to afirm those tenants of my faith that are the only path, the narrow way, that leads to obediance of Allmighty God.

I welcome you to seek a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. A very good place to start is in Paul's book to the Romans. I would suggest that you go to an independent book store and select any version you choose. I firmly believe that Smith's edition of the KJV is flawed. Why? Smith's ministry is a study in inconsistancy. His book of Mormon. From metalic plates? I've heard the plates were gold, bronze, brass?

With the passage of time those individuals who signed a document stating that they personally saw the plates later refuted their claim and stated that their view was "spiritual" not actual.

Smith and his wife dressed in black, went to the hillside in northern New York State in the dark of night, in a carriage painted black drawn by black horses. Why Black? God is truth. Where HE IS there is NO DARKNESS. Pesonally I believe Smith's whole ploy was and remains a hoax. I believe that hoax was purpertrated by Smith's experimentation with and practice of sorcery and divination. The author of the myth is Satan. Like it or not, here I stand.

I don't hate you. I don't know you. I wish you well and peace.

I have found my peace in Jesus Christ. It is not mine alone. This peace is avaiable to anyone who will humble themself, admit that they are sinners, confess those sins and acknowledge that they cannot save themelves, ask Jesus to save them, believe in faith and confess that HE is LORD. I can't confess for you. I can't trust for you. I cannot believe for you. You must do it for yourself. Salvation is a gift from God. I didn't earn it. I didn't deserve it. I just accepted it as HIS gift to me.

Trust & Obey.

ATAR_i said...

I love a good conversation - exchange of ideas, each side pushing the limits of the others knowledge and ability to respond in a manner that is persuasive.

I find myself irked when individuals begin a rhetoric of superiority based on the color of their skin (or eyes), or racial profiling (Jews, Native Americans, African Americans etc). Claiming some sort of superior birthright.

As a young girl scrounging through my parents basement I came across a dusty old wooden military chest of my grandfathers. The smell was musty, but the contents spoke with horrifying detail despite their age. I have never seen such photos as he had brought back from Germany after WWII - large photos and other ephemera.

I did not understand how it happened - and still cannot grasp how so many looked the other way, or justified the treatment of the Jews - but it happened - and it started with a belief.

A belief in racial purity. A superior race that loses it's intelligence, status and probably it's very land if mixed with a lower race.

I have seen the photos, and heard the testimonies of those whose lives were changed or erradicated by a plague of hatred that began with one persuasive mans belief.

Luke 18: 9-14

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9. To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:

10. "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.

12. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13. "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14. "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

By grace I'm saved - not by any works, or ancestry. Because I love God - I strive to be as he wants me (and of course fail at time) - as God says we all do - because there is not one that is perfect and we are all in need of his grace.

Anonymous said...

Believing one has god on their side and their opponent does not is dangerous. I do find it fascinating that people of different faiths only think god is on their side. Now we can kill, suppress and ridicule our brothers in the name of god. Don’t you just love this country? Is it not strange that the religious right is the first to want to go to war in the name of god and at the same time be against abortion? Somehow it’s ok to kill 6000 people with bombs and bullets because we are Christian. The same people are the ones calling for the government to go into the compound with a bazooka. Much of the rhetoric is right wing fundamentalist everything. Everyone is throwing big stones and living in fragile glass houses. When the truth is god is on no ones side.

ATAR_i said...

To my way of thinking - God is on everyones side.

Anonymous said...

To Atar_I:

Touché. I did not mean to sound so pessimistic. Religion and religious zealots of every culture are responsible for most of the ignorance, death and destruction through history. I like John Lennon's song “Imagine". No more flying stones in glass houses...

Anonymous said...


You are not under the skin, just your bigotry. If you don't believe in the mission and message of Joseph Smith, so what. But the constant attack? Perhaps it is he that is under your skin.

mugwump said...

Heel flies are a nuisance.

Smith's theology is not a nuisance it is a cancer. Unless a diagnosis has been determined how can one gain the knowledge that cancer is life threatening? My concern is for the people who walk in darkness. They are akin to those suffering from cancer. To have had no way to know that neither a diagnosis nor a cure is available. How will they know there is anything else available for their healing unless someone calls that fact to their attention.

My Hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.

I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus name.

On Christ the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.
For I know whom I have believed and am pursuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against That Day.

Anonymous said...

Joseph Smith's theology is probably like a cancer to your congregation, mugwamp, like it was to Alexander Campbells?

Even a lot of the Christians don't like personal responsiblity, for some strange reason. They want grace to do it all for them.

Anonymous said...

So, Mugwump, why not this same attitude towards the billions of Muslims and Buddists (many of whom believe in polygamy)? It seems that it is Joseph Smith and the principles he taught that have a reaction from you that in a common psychological analysis seem to stem from fear.

Anonymous said...

because, you see, if you say any of those kinds of things about the Budists and Muslems SPLG will put you on thier hate groups list.

Anonymous said...

So Ironic,Did anyone notice Mugwump
signed one of his polemics,"Trust&Obey,for there is no other Way"could have come straight from Warrens mouth.

Anonymous said...

You still don't get it Mugwump - God is not on your side and you certainly don't have exclusive rights. Are you Street’s brother/sister/it?

By the way, I am your worst nightmare, an Agnostic with a wireless laptop and a degree in world religion. The problem with most “holier than thou people ” is they are limited it the search for truth. Read ONE book( ie Bible, Koran ) ect, and think they found the answer and it would be sinful to read other truths. Its like listening to only one Genre of music and saying that’s the only music that you will listen to. The Bible is “ A TRUTH” not THE Ultimate TRUTH. There are hundreds of documents and books that are just as “Inspirational” as the Bible , or Book of Mormon , or Qur'an (Koran). There are many roads to heaven. NOT ONE!

The simple fact is we believe what we are socialized to believe. People of all faiths are trained like “junk-yard dogs”. It is very rare to go against 20 years of socialization and then convert.

mugwump said...

What you people don't want to understand is that my beliefs are MINE. They have come about as the result of years of study and prayer. I do not claim to know everything about God. (My God's name is never spelled with a lower case "g.")

What you don't understand is Grace (Unmerited favor of God to an unnworthy sinner.) God's grace can be also know as love. This love is not equated with friendship nor sexual experience, but love on a higher level of existance, God's Love. Your child is ever your child. If he/she does something wrong, in your estimation, they may suffer your wrath but, the child is still yours. God's love is a portrait of that, love for a child.

Does God care if you sin? Of course, the Bible is packed with examples of God's wrath withheld because of intercessary prayer of Holy People and delivered as judgement resulting from the rebellion of His unworthy children.

Do sinners suffer because of our sin? Yes, the consequences of our sin haunt our lives for years. But, Praise God, He Gave (His Grace) payment for our sin in the sacriffice of His Son, Jesus Christ, on Calvary's Cross. The shed blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Although we bear the consequences of our sin, when we repent and ask for forgivness, by God's Grace, we are forgiven. How? Through our trust in the blood of Jesus as the penalty price for the sins of not only the entire world but My sin as well. He (Jesus) paid the price. If he had to repeat the process of death every time we sin His blood is not sufficient for our redemption. But, acceptance that there is a continuity of the living Word. (See the Gospel of John Chapter 1)
The Word was in the beginning with God and the Word Was God. The Word became flesh (carnate) and dwelt among us.

Jesus, concieved by Mary, a virgin chosen by God to bear his son, Jesus. Jesus lived on earth for approximately 33 years. His ministry spanned the last three years of His life.
Note: The "Word" was in the beginning with God. By Him everything was made (created). The "Word", identified in John 1 as Jesus. Jesus was creator, he is the redeemer. At the time of the judgement He will welcome His Own with "Well done, thou good and Faithful Servant",(identified as His sheep), to the goats, on his left hand he will rebuke saying, "Depart from Me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you."

I will not apologize for my belief. I will not be your judge. Jesus ONLY is the judge. I believe in His promises to not only me but to every sinner, regardless of denomination. He paid the price. He sets the terms for forgivness. I am only a witness of His Saving Grace. My claim is based not upon those things I might accomplish that would impress others but only that I exhibted FAITH In HIM.

My charge is given to every born again believer in Christ, to tell the Gospel (Good News) to the world. This little attempt is one way I can be sure that someone will search their heart, recognize the emptyness therein, read one of my posts, read from God's word to establish the truth and determine if they would like to have Jesus become their Savior and Lord. If just one person comes into that knowledge my effort is not in vain.

Anonymous said...

Ya da ya da ya da ...

Anonymous said...

How does it feel to be chastised for what you believe? Now you know how we feel. If your beliefs are yours, leave us alone. We do not share in your ranting. You may want to start posting on Streets thread or maybe Benny Hinn or Jerry Falwell. Fundamentalism is not exclusive to FLDS.

mugwump said...

Aonymous Agnostic

Oh yes I get it, He who believes in nothing will fall for anything.

I strongly suspect that the purpose of your seeking knowledge in "World Religion" was an effort to support your pre-conceived Agnostic view. You really did not care about any belief system, your purpose was to find fault with all.

I'll not stoop low enough to answer any further quiries from your "laptop."

ATAR_i said...

OK - we're all giving each other a pretty bad time aren't we (myself included) - taking a few pot shots, having some stimulating conversation, and making a few jokes.

I don't find mugwump like street - he's passionate about his beliefs, and coherant. I can't say I agree with him on many counts - but we already threw our snowballs and I'm all better now.

Yes, we Christians do talk of grace - but we don't continue in sin that grace may abound.

And agnostic - my father was one as well (agnostic), a very well learned man, full of talent and pride. Spiritual experiences aren't something you can have from a book, or learn from your mother - and he had one - a big one (but I won't bother with that story). He was a different man after, and ended up being a college professor at university after his retirement from the bench. He taught about the relationship between Law and the Church. Very interesting lectures.

Anyhoo - I agree on some points that we are socialized to believing many of the things we do, but I don't believe that the entirety of what we believe and will believe in the future is fixed from our birth - or from our socialization.

So, despite the fact that you are a dyed in the wool agnostic - I do not believe that your journey has ended either. I think you might change your mind on some issues - I don't believe your that static.

Anonymous said...

Hey Pilot Dude,
Anything new at compound?

ThePilot said...

The Eldorado success has a great pic on front page of the back and side of temple. You can see the sloped entrance. The front of the temple is getting a similar entrance. Recent rain is making the land look great and the garden is turning green. Nothing else of great insight is going on. Everything is calm. Its a beautiful place.

quiet canadian said...

After our Bountiful Polygamy summit, a Presbterian Minister gathered a croud of our ladies around him. He tried to converse with them, but he just held a onesided conversation. He would give a discourse then ask a question, then he would quickly answer his own question before anyone else could speak. He told us how we were all Gods people, and he loved us all. Then he began to Criticize Joseph Smith and bash us for our way of life. I stood by as an observer, disrupting his discourse several times to allow others a chance to speak. Forgetting what had come out of his mouth, he portrayed that he had no hate in his heart towards anyone. Mugwump, are you a Presbterian Minister?

Anonymous said...

well, your right about one thing: this is hate talk.

mugwump said...

Quiet Canadian:

No, but I'll let you go ahead with thinking so. I didn't know truth had a denominational brand.

It is logical to pose a question before making a declarative statement. This allows the writer to help the reader understand what the question was before an attempt was made to answer that question.

onthestreet said...

Now, that's a S(Mug) answer, but true. But where does the 'Wump' come in? You couldn't mean wimp, unless you're just being humble.

mugwump said...


mugwump is in the dictionary under the letter "m." If you're really interested in learning definitions that would be my first choice.

It seems that all the language some ever learn is copied off a men's room wall.

Anonymous said...

Is that a confession?

onthestreet said...

Yes, he's confessing, and also getting his language out of a dictionary. Hey, muggy, that ain't so buggy. Dictionaries are fine instruments for tongue-wagging, so let's tongue-wag the definition of 'Mugwump': "A generalized
expression of disapproval. A regular member who bolts from the group. One who is undecided as a result of an inability to make up his mind. A restless mind, sorely perplexed."

These are direct quotes from the Webster's Third New International Dictionary. Don't we just love that word 'dictionary'? "Dict" as in dictate.

onthestreet said...

Mugwump is loved by many.

HardHeaded said...

Actually ots, diction is a latin derivative for word(s)

onthestreet said...

Right, and "diction" and "dictate" have a common root. Don't be so, ummmmmm, shall we say, HARDHEADED?

onthestreet said...

Mugsy Said, in starting this thread: Just WHO advocates HATE? Are individuals who encourage moral behavior HATE inspired? I think that that assumption is straight out of the bowels of HELL. So you don't believe in HELL, well, you will sooner than later.

Well put, Mug.

Anonymous said...

mugwump was a southern politics term which came from the term mug (mouth)on one side of the fence and wump (butt) on the other.

by that defininition onthestreet is the real mugwump

HardHeaded said...

I don't know why I chose this name but I think it fits you alittle better. If you want I'll give it up to you?

Anonymous said...

Since this string is about hate, I suggest to any serious seeker after understanding that you get and read the book called Hatred: The Psychological Descent into Violence -- by Willard Gaylin,Md. I found the book to be both informative and unsettling in the context of the FLDS mindset.

onthestreet said...

Why study hatred. Why not study and practice love. Now there's a sermon (to myself). Albeit, not to whitewash the issues in the name of "Love", for that too deceives and destroys mens' souls.